Silent Meditation: Should this be allowed?

Carol25 · #1 06-21-2009, 07:40 PM

Lawsuit:

Quote:

In 2003, the Texas legislature amended the Texas Education Code, making mandatory a previously optional moment of silence, and changing the list of designated options for what students can do during the moment of silence from “reflect or meditate” to “reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student.”

http://www.au.org/what-we-do/lawsuits/archives/croft-v-perry.html

LisaM22 · #2 06-22-2009, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carol25

Lawsuit:

http://www.au.org/what-we-do/lawsuits/archives/croft-v-perry.html

does it cut into class time, I say it is pushing the line and should be avoided, if they want they could increase the in between class time and those that wanted to sit at their desk and pray or meditate could during that time, those that need more time to get to class would have it too, but to call that time a religious time is wrong in the public schools - maybe they could call it nap time?

Details · #3 06-22-2009, 04:03 AM

I think they were dumb to add the word "pray" - is it so important to prove that religions own the country that they had to put that word in there? I'm sure no student who wanted to pray would have a problem figuring out that this was a time to do so. Should just be nothing more than a moment of silent reflection - which is not a bad thing before starting a day - whatever the student chose to use to focus themselves on the tasks of the day.

Kinda not necessary for school - but maybe as a moment of reflection - maybe so. Probably would be a good thing - were it TRULY just a moment for reflection.

A moment for prayer - do they really think that there's no other time people can pray, so you must set aside time in school for it? I doubt it! Nope - just more attempts to push religion on those who do not follow it, make them feel like the outsider as their classmates pray. Otherwise - really - someone enlighten me - why make a special school pray time? Is it that hard to pray at breakfast, in the car, on the school bus, under a tree, after school, at lunch, while ignoring the teacher babbling on, before bed, and so on and so forth? I see no other reason for all these attempts to force officially sanctioned prayer in school other than to push religion.

All that said, and as much as I think it's obvious they wanted to add the word "pray" to the existing regulation to push their religion into schools as much as possible, one step at a time - personally, I think the way this is written, it's Constitutional. They haven't said the only purpose of the time is prayer, and they've listed other purposes that are non-religious or even belong to other religious traditions (meditation). Still - I think the motives are dirty.

LisaM22 · #4 06-22-2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Details

I think they were dumb to add the word "pray" - is it so important to prove that religions own the country that they had to put that word in there? I'm sure no student who wanted to pray would have a problem figuring out that this was a time to do so. Should just be nothing more than a moment of silent reflection - which is not a bad thing before starting a day - whatever the student chose to use to focus themselves on the tasks of the day.

Kinda not necessary for school - but maybe as a moment of reflection - maybe so. Probably would be a good thing - were it TRULY just a moment for reflection.

A moment for prayer - do they really think that there's no other time people can pray, so you must set aside time in school for it? I doubt it! Nope - just more attempts to push religion on those who do not follow it, make them feel like the outsider as their classmates pray. Otherwise - really - someone enlighten me - why make a special school pray time? Is it that hard to pray at breakfast, in the car, on the school bus, under a tree, after school, at lunch, while ignoring the teacher babbling on, before bed, and so on and so forth? I see no other reason for all these attempts to force officially sanctioned prayer in school other than to push religion.

I agree, I think that is the problem, they defined what the freetime was for, they should of just called it 30 minutes of freetime and left it at that, or maybe call it a study hall, then they can do whatever they want or extend the lunch hour.... they obviously had an agenda here or they would of just freed up some time for whatever

LisaM22 · #5 06-22-2009, 04:09 AM

there are teacher that think it is there job to punish people that are not their religion, and what better way to give a religious test then this

Lynden1000 · #6 06-22-2009, 09:39 AM

Personally I have no problem with a moment of silence.

In theory school time should be learning time, but in practice I always found a moment of silence to be a good time to collect my thoughts and/or pass notes. We all have to pick and choose our fights, and I guess this is one I'd be willing to compromise on.

LisaM22 · #7 06-22-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynden1000

Personally I have no problem with a moment of silence.

In theory school time should be learning time, but in practice I always found a moment of silence to be a good time to collect my thoughts and/or pass notes. We all have to pick and choose our fights, and I guess this is one I'd be willing to compromise on.

yeah, I just think they could of said a moment of silence rather then add the “reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student.”

they could of just said, during the moment of silence, a student may do any silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student.

and not sure why they changed it from "optional" for the schools to "mandatory" - obviously someone had an agenda there

Lynden1000 · #8 06-22-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LisaM22

yeah, I just think they could of said a moment of silence rather then add the “reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student.”

they could of just said, during the moment of silence, a student may do any silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student.

and not sure why they changed it from "optional" for the schools to "mandatory" - obviously someone had an agenda there

I don't understand the whole "mandatory" thing either. I guess maybe they figured if it was left up to all those atheist teachers out there, they would opt out. Because, you know, they're such a huge majority and all.

lunchlady · #9 06-22-2009, 01:42 PM

This is another attempt to try and make school districts seem atheistic and against religion in general. Its another litmus test (like abortion) with built-in hot buttons to get The Base excited about how evil the separation of church and state is, and encourage them to feel embattled and ready to go to war.

Prayer in school isn't inherently objectionable to me if it doesn't interfere with any other academic activities, but I do object to the whining for special treatment and allotments of time. I was taught that prayer is private and can be done inobtrusively at any time. Those who insist on public group prayer could be provided with a space at lunchtime I guess, but insisting that the whole school engage in prayer at a set time is ridiculous for all sorts of reasons.

I saw a young woman at the airport last week who stood prominently in front of two waiting areas and made it abundantly obvious she was praying over and over again for a full 30 minutes. She has the right to do that, but why was she seeking so much attention for it? She kept looking at the assembled crowd as though she wanted someone to say something so she could shriek about her religious rights. No one did. I consider her a bad advertisement for the value and purpose of prayer. She certainly didn't inspire me to pray publicly. Perhaps she was terrified of flying but then why did she make herself so visible? If some pastor somewhere is encouraging this behavior I'd like a word with him or her.

Carol25 · #10 06-22-2009, 03:11 PM

The above comments are very interesting.

The schools gave four examples for the time of silence which when I was in school amounted to 30 seconds.

They were:
Reflect
Pray
Meditate
Engage in any other silent activity

They gave no weight to any of these activities. So putting weight on prayer cannot be their agenda. It is only one out four choices. Many may have chosen to reflect on a problem they were having with another; meditate on an anxiety upon an upcoming date or test; or finish their homework or copy someone else’s..

I believe they chose to make the change from optional to mandatory so all of the schools in the district were following the same regulation mandated by the board.

I personally think that giving students a "personal time" before the beginning of their day is a good dea.

I used it for all of those reasons above. (Yes, including copying someone else's homework!)

Lyndawitha"Y · #11 06-22-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carol25

The above comments are very interesting.

The schools gave four examples for the time of silence which when I was in school amounted to 30 seconds.

They were:
Reflect
Pray
Meditate
Engage in any other silent activity

They gave no weight to any of these activities. So putting weight on prayer cannot be their agenda. It is only one out four choices. Many may have chosen to reflect on a problem they were having with another; meditate on an anxiety upon an upcoming date or test; or finish their homework or copy someone else’s..

I believe they chose to make the change from optional to mandatory so all of the schools in the district were following the same regulation mandated by the board.

I personally think that giving students a "personal time" before the beginning of their day is a good dea.

I used it for all of those reasons above. (Yes, including copying someone else's homework!)

Well, it seems to me that this came out of someone or group challenging the rights for anyone to mandate a moment of silence...I find that very interesting...Why in heck would anybody want to challenge a short moment of silence??? Cause they dont want anyone to force them to clam up for a minute..or someone force them to actually think???or better..for them to reflect on who they are, what they stand for and just maybe rethink some of their intolerant views??..

To think all this is even a question???Boggles my mind anyway??
Such nonesense..and petty, intolerant and intrussive into School Rules and Regulations...I am surprised they dont suit someone because of the "Moment of Silence" that is been around since I was a wee one on Nov.11th..remember the fallen in war..Geesh..

LMS

LisaM22 · #12 06-22-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carol25

The above comments are very interesting.

The schools gave four examples for the time of silence which when I was in school amounted to 30 seconds.

They were:
Reflect
Pray
Meditate
Engage in any other silent activity

They gave no weight to any of these activities. So putting weight on prayer cannot be their agenda. It is only one out four choices. Many may have chosen to reflect on a problem they were having with another; meditate on an anxiety upon an upcoming date or test; or finish their homework or copy someone else’s..

I believe they chose to make the change from optional to mandatory so all of the schools in the district were following the same regulation mandated by the board.

I personally think that giving students a "personal time" before the beginning of their day is a good dea.

I used it for all of those reasons above. (Yes, including copying someone else's homework!)

they should not of made it religious then, just call it a silent time out from the day and leave it at that, i would prefer to just see the time between classes extended if anything

Lyndawitha"Y · #13 06-22-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LisaM22

they should not of made it religious then, just call it a silent time out from the day and leave it at that, i would prefer to just see the time between classes extended if anything

You know of course the "Code" was labeled a "Moment of Silence" and it seems these people chose to view it as promoting religion..nowhere does it say religion, only giving some examples for Time Use..it's really up to the individual..and since it is and Educational Code..children need some guidelines or examples in order to understand the "Code"..

I dont see anywhere in that code, listing mandetory thoughts to be reflected upon, only that during this silent moment, they are not to interfer with others around them..no more no less...

When I pray for rain..is that religious..When I pray for good grades..is that religious..when I pray I dont get caught for speeding..is that religious??..It all comes down to a very short sighted, narrow viewed group to make it about their own biases...

This all goes back to 2006

In 2006, David and Shannon Croft, acting on behalf of their children, filed a lawsuit in federal district court challenging the amendment to the moment-of-silence statute. The district court dismissed the lawsuit, and the Crofts appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.

It appears these people have more money and time to waste than using common sense...Rather shallow IMO..and to think these people are taking it to U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.

Man..???

LMS

Carol25 · #14 06-22-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LisaM22

they should not of made it religious then, just call it a silent time out from the day and leave it at that, i would prefer to just see the time between classes extended if anything

Well, that's kind of my point. The gave 4 examples of choices that were silent activities. And prayer is a choice in America, is it not? Why is nobody making an issue of "reflecting: or meditating"? In essence, they did not make it "religious".

I think it's because their personal biases are showing. If this happens to be an athiest complaining, which should be asked during the appeal, he should be told he had several other silent tasks to choose from, not taking any rights away. It's all about choices, not mandatory acts.

lunchlady · #15 06-22-2009, 07:06 PM

When I hear the announcements at my kids' schools they do a moment of silence that lasts about 30 seconds. I don't know when this started and it doesn't have an overtly religious quality to it. I first heard it in Massachusetts after 9/11 but I don't remember if that's when it started.

I don't see a reason for this moment of silence to be mandated or prohibited. It's a short interlude and is calming after all the rushing to get to school and to the first class on time. Quaker grace for meals is the same thing, with hands joined. Its especially calming for the cook, besides a reminder of the spiritual element of breaking bread together. If its spiritually refreshing in any way its a fine thing, but if a school isn't already doing it then mandating it seems like a waste of time for paid government workers who could be doing something else.

30 minutes is definitely too long. Every minute of keeping the schools open costs money and I don't send my kids to school to have a half hour of personal time, especially in the AM when its hard enough already to get them out of the house on time. Who's going to supervise that and keep it from being another free-for-all "study hall" situation with the bullies on the loose?

LisaM22 · #16 06-22-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyndawitha"Y

You know of course the "Code" was labeled a "Moment of Silence" and it seems these people chose to view it as promoting religion..nowhere does it say religion, only giving some examples for Time Use..it's really up to the individual..and since it is and Educational Code..children need some guidelines or examples in order to understand the "Code"..

I dont see anywhere in that code, listing mandetory thoughts to be reflected upon, only that during this silent moment, they are not to interfer with others around them..no more no less...

When I pray for rain..is that religious..When I pray for good grades..is that religious..when I pray I dont get caught for speeding..is that religious??..It all comes down to a very short sighted, narrow viewed group to make it about their own biases...

This all goes back to 2006

In 2006, David and Shannon Croft, acting on behalf of their children, filed a lawsuit in federal district court challenging the amendment to the moment-of-silence statute. The district court dismissed the lawsuit, and the Crofts appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.

It appears these people have more money and time to waste than using common sense...Rather shallow IMO..and to think these people are taking it to U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.

Man..???

LMS

do you think a teacher should be fired for calling it prayer time if it is passed? I can already see this being abused, it is just to tempting to some teachers that are unable to resist the temptation

Lyndawitha"Y · #17 06-22-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LisaM22

do you think a teacher should be fired for calling it prayer time if it is passed? I can already see this being abused, it is just to tempting to some teachers that are unable to resist the temptation

Sorry Lisa..I have not been abe to locate anything specific about a teacher stating it was a Religious Prayer Time..Guess I am being just the usual outsider that should keep my mouth shut??..I was looking at the Law Suit..the Texas Board of Education Code..didnt find anything specific to a "Teacher"......NO..I dont think she/he should be fired..but "Corrected"..and make sure she Clarify's..or else leave..something like that...

Teacher's are individuals who may very well take "License" to promote personal agenda..but that is something local..and should've been addressed in that juristiction... locally.. which it was..and denied....??certainly doesnt need to go to higher courts....Course what do I know?.....It is from my experience that when a local issue reaches the higher courts..there is an agenda...So who really knows??

So..if one or two teachers declares this "Moment of Silence" Quode..Course I tend to see things in a broader sense..being an outsider....

If one has a grievance against a teacher or a small group..why attack the whole premise..It is the teacher/group of teachers who are at fault..if proven...

Is..it really so wrong to teach our children to think, reflect for a few moments of the day?...I cant find any issues with that "Thought Processes"?

LMS

LisaM22 · #18 06-22-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyndawitha"Y

Sorry Lisa..I have not been abe to locate anything specific about a teacher stating it was a Religious Prayer Time..Guess I am being just the usual outsider that should keep my mouth shut??..I was looking at the Law Suit..the Texas Board of Education Code..didnt find anything specific to a "Teacher"......NO..I dont think she/he should be fired..but "Corrected"..and make sure she Clarify's..or else leave..something like that...

Teacher's are individuals who may very well take "License" to promote personal agenda..but that is something local..and should've been addressed in that juristiction... locally.. which it was..and denied....??certainly doesnt need to go to higher courts....Course what do I know?.....It is from my experience that when a local issue reaches the higher courts..there is an agenda...So who really knows??

So..if one or two teachers declares this "Moment of Silence" Quode..Course I tend to see things in a broader sense..being an outsider....

If one has a grievance against a teacher or a small group..why attack the whole premise..It is the teacher/group of teachers who are at fault..if proven...

Is..it really so wrong to teach our children to think, reflect for a few moments of the day?...I cant find any issues with that "Thought Processes"?

LMS

the last school I read about where a Christian teacher called a child a liar and unknowing to the teacher that child made a tape recording of the teacher, busted, guess what the school did, punished the teacher and baned tape recording of teachers to make sure it never happened again, a child proving he is not a liar that is - crazy

LisaM22 · #19 06-22-2009, 09:58 PM

found the link to that other story

"Student’s Recording of Teacher’s Views Leads to a Ban on Taping"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/01/nyregion/01tape.html

"After a public school teacher was recorded telling students they belonged in hell if they did not accept Jesus as their savior, the school board has banned taping in class without an instructor’s permission, and has added training for teachers on the legal requirements for separating church and state."

LisaM22 · #20 06-22-2009, 10:04 PM

more about that student in the above link, looks like he got a scholarship and looks like a Student Education Assembly on Religious Freedom was created at his high school because of his actions

http://www.aclu.org/students/34399res20080314.html

""The courage and commitment to civil liberties Matt displayed, especially against the resistance of his peers, teachers, and principal, made him an undisputed nominee for this scholarship. He is certainly a young person whose belief in civil liberties is second nature."

Beau Zach · #21 06-27-2009, 06:02 PM

Everytime I ask one of my kids a question, they're apparently siliently meditating - they sure arne't responding to me. Whether it's allowed or not, it's happening.

Carol25 · #22 06-28-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau Zach

Everytime I ask one of my kids a question, they're apparently siliently meditating - they sure arne't responding to me. Whether it's allowed or not, it's happening.

Bless their hearts, lol.

Next time take the earphones out.