Spartanburg School District Sued Over Religion Class

[Cooper]

www.foxcarolina.com/news/19799995/detail.html

"Moss said that a religion-elective offered as a school credit at Spartanburg High School, which is a public school, is unconstitutional."

[Carol25]

I find this very interesting. I would like the amendment that the parents feel the school violated. All I know is that the school has not mandated any student to take this course and it is not presented in the actual school.

I would not make any difference what religion was being taught or if the course was giving an overview of many. I see no problem with it. I don't believe the actual words "separation of church and state" are really in the constitution are they?

There is a difference of practicing a religion and just educating a person of a religion. What was the purpose of this course?

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Carol25

I find this very interesting. I would like the amendment that the parents feel the school violated. All I know is that the school has not mandated any student to take this course and it is not presented in the actual school.

I would not make any difference what religion was being taught or if the course was giving an overview of many. I see no problem with it. I don't believe the actual words "separation of church and state" are really in the constitution are they?

There is a difference of practicing a religion and just educating a person of a religion. What was the purpose of this course?

I agree, it would depend if the elective was a teaching course or a course held at a church - personally I say they should not do it, because this kinda thing can be used as a test for religion other teachers use to discriminate against those of differing beliefs, this is what Sunday school is for, do the churches no longer offer Sunday school and want the public schools to do it for them? or do the churches want the schools to fund their teaching at a church? why does it need to be at a church? having a world religions class is one thing, sounds like this is something else all together - is it a 1 time elective or every single semester elective? the fact that the course is held at a church and public funds pay for that course means it should not be done imo - if the church wants to offer a bible class, offer a after school bible class that is off the public tax payer dime

[LisaM22]

looks like once people found out this supposed "class" was actually at a church it blew up in their face, why is it some try to push things to far on purpose, geez, at least have the class at the school and maybe they would of got away with it, having children go to church for class, that is just ridiculous and obviously a violation of separation of CHURCH and STATE, the class is at a church for crying out loud, how more joined at the hip can ya get?

[Lyvia]

I, too, wondered about the purpose of this course. So I Googled. The linked article says the class was put on by Spartanburg County Bible Education In School-Time Curriculum. Their motto is "Reaching Children with the gospel During School Time." Here's a link to their site: Spartanburg County Bible Education In School-Time Curriculum

There are only two paragraphs on the page but both say this is Christian education. Here's the second paragraph:

Spartanburg County Bible Education in School Time

(SCBEST) is Spartanburg County’s own BEST program. We have been offering classes to students in Spartanburg for 10 years. We offer Christian education, just as students would receive if they attended a private Christian school, using specific curriculum to acquaint students with their creator and a Biblical worldview. As a locally run and supported ministry, we provide classes during the school day to nurture, encourage, and guide students in the many choices they face. We emphasize that every aspect of life should be lived for the glory of God, and thus we expect our ministry to have a positive influence on family relationships, friendships, work ethics, study habits, discipline, morality, maturity etc.

The first paragraph includes logistics, and calls the curriculum "a Christian education."

I encourage everyone interested to read around on their site.

[FurthurBB]

Originally Posted by Carol25

I find this very interesting. I would like the amendment that the parents feel the school violated. All I know is that the school has not mandated any student to take this course and it is not presented in the actual school.

I would not make any difference what religion was being taught or if the course was giving an overview of many. I see no problem with it. I don't believe the actual words "separation of church and state" are really in the constitution are they?

There is a difference of practicing a religion and just educating a person of a religion. What was the purpose of this course?

I think it would be fine if they were teaching a little about world religions at the school, but, this is something entirely different. IMO

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

I, too, wondered about the purpose of this course. So I Googled. The linked article says the class was put on by Spartanburg County Bible Education In School-Time Curriculum. Their motto is "Reaching Children with the gospel During School Time." Here's a link to their site: Spartanburg County Bible Education In School-Time Curriculum

There are only two paragraphs on the page but both say this is Christian education. Here's the second paragraph:



The first paragraph includes logistics, and calls the curriculum "a Christian education."

I encourage everyone interested to read around on their site.

thanks for the link, so this is part of the curriculum? "We emphasize that every aspect of life should be lived for the glory of God"

the school has definitely stepped over the line and should lose all government funds

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Cooper

www.foxcarolina.com/news/19799995/detail.html

"Moss said that a religion-elective offered as a school credit at Spartanburg High School, which is a public school, is unconstitutional."

What are they suing over? What damages have they suffered? Perhaps they missed the words "elective" and "choice". For decades, people of faith have been told to "turn the channel" or "just don't participate" if something offends them. Perhaps these people should take the same advice when practicing their "freedom from religion" and allow others their Constitutional freedom of religion.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Patriot

What are they suing over? What damages have they suffered? Perhaps they missed the words "elective" and "choice". For decades, people of faith have been told to "turn the channel" or "just don't participate" if something offends them. Perhaps these people should take the same advice when practicing their "freedom from religion" and allow others their Constitutional freedom of religion.

having a class at a church, sorry, they overstepped their bounds, this is NOT education, this is indoctrination, students go to school to learn, not be converted

can you imagine if an elective that taught about Muslims, attempted to convert your child and was held in a Muslim church? you think Christian parents would be happy?

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Patriot

<snip> Perhaps these people should take the same advice when practicing their "freedom from religion" and allow others their Constitutional freedom of religion.

you just made the lawsuits point, this is not education, this is religious indoctrination

[Lyvia]

Yeah, the class is basically an attempted end-run around the law. It's church on school time (I read all around the website). They don't even hide that.

I feel for the children who take that class and miss out on actual real school. imo.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

Yeah, the class is basically an attempted end-run around the law. It's church on school time (I read all around the website). They don't even hide that.

I feel for the children who take that class and miss out on actual real school. imo.

yep and the fact that the student take the class at the church rather then the classroom, that alone shows it's not a real class and violates separation of church and state

[Lyvia]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

yep and the fact that the student take the class at the church rather then the classroom, that alone shows it's not a real class and violates separation of church and state

Yeah, I think if children of other faiths, such as Jewish or Muslim or Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses, were getting class credit to attend what amounts to religious instruction (and conversion, depending on the child) on school time, paid for with tax dollars, some people would see it a bit differently.

[Lyvia]

Originally Posted by Patriot

What are they suing over? What damages have they suffered? Perhaps they missed the words "elective" and "choice". For decades, people of faith have been told to "turn the channel" or "just don't participate" if something offends them. Perhaps these people should take the same advice when practicing their "freedom from religion" and allow others their Constitutional freedom of religion.

Ok, so how many of your tax dollars do you want to go to a class for Muslims' religious instruction. Not for them to learn just facts about the religion, but for them to receive religious instruction. For them to go be taught for school credit that theirs is the one true religion? How about a class for atheists in which only "there is no God" is taught and your religion would be debunked. Would you pay for my kids to go to that? How about Jewish kids getting credit to learn Judaism and be told it's the only true religion. You want to pay for that? And Wiccan children? Will you pay for their instruction? How many of your tax dollars do you want to go pay for children to be taught that your religion is wrong?

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Cooper

www.foxcarolina.com/news/19799995/detail.html

"Moss said that a religion-elective offered as a school credit at Spartanburg High School, which is a public school, is unconstitutional."

Wow, I wonder what those parents would think of "Bible Release Time" that has been going on in districts for years. Good luck with suing that one, but I'm sure eventually the anti-choice people will try.


http://www.rtce.org/pages.asp?pageid=32778


http://www.releasedtime.org/sitert/


http://www.psci.net/bibleinschool/Pu...Ministries.htm

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Patriot

Wow, I wonder what those parents would think of "Bible Release Time" that has been going on in districts for years. Good luck with suing that one, but I'm sure eventually the anti-choice people will try.


http://www.rtce.org/pages.asp?pageid=32778


http://www.releasedtime.org/sitert/


http://www.psci.net/bibleinschool/Pu...Ministries.htm

That is interesting, I had no idea about that program. Is it only Protestant faiths that participate in this program, or it is one religion in particular. I am really curious, and was not sure from the link I read.

TIA

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

Ok, so how many of your tax dollars do you want to go to a class for Muslims' religious instruction. Not for them to learn just facts about the religion, but for them to receive religious instruction. For them to go be taught for school credit that theirs is the one true religion? How about a class for atheists in which only "there is no God" is taught and your religion would be debunked. Would you pay for my kids to go to that? How about Jewish kids getting credit to learn Judaism and be told it's the only true religion. You want to pay for that? And Wiccan children? Will you pay for their instruction? How many of your tax dollars do you want to go pay for children to be taught that your religion is wrong?

yep, they would be opening the door to all those other religions, including a class on scientology offsite at a scientolgy indoctrination center

not to mention all the different flavors of Christian religions, which one do you have the students worship, ect...

[LisaM22]

it's sad, I guess Christians no longer want to leave their children off at the church alone on Sundays, maybe fear of all the sexual molestations going on in the churches or something - what else could it be, what ever happened to Sunday School? why do they need the school to indoctrinate students, do they no longer trust their own church?

there must be a reason Christians think Sunday school is failing their children and think the public school system could do it better

[Tracian]

Due to Patriot's links, she refreshed my memory.

When I was in middle school, I tend to remember now, that the kids that were IIRC JW's were released from school early a couple times a month for religious education.

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Tracian

That is interesting, I had no idea about that program. Is it only Protestant faiths that participate in this program, or it is one religion in particular. I am really curious, and was not sure from the link I read.

TIA

Hi Tracian. All children of any and all faiths are welcome to attend. All that is needed is a permission slip signed by the parent.

[Lyvia]

Originally Posted by Tracian

Due to Patriot's links, she refreshed my memory.

When I was in middle school, I tend to remember now, that the kids that were IIRC JW's were released from school early a couple times a month for religious education.

Was that for school credit? If so, the taxpayers were footing the bill. If not, it's apples and oranges.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Patriot

Hi Tracian. All children of any and all faiths are welcome to attend. All that is needed is a permission slip signed by the parent.

So basically it is a non denominational program. Thanks, this jogged my memory about JW kids I went to middle school with.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

Was that for school credit? If so, the taxpayers were footing the bill. If not, it's apples and oranges.

No, it was not for school credit; however, IIRC, the students did get credit for being at school, the school got credit for the student being there all day; as well as in some cases received perfect attendance awards at the end of the year.

I agree it is not the same as the topic of the thread, but it is kinda parallel to this OP.

[Lyvia]

It is parallel. Sort of, lol.

Just one point: When I say "credit," I'm not talking about an hour here or there that kids weren't docked for missing a few classes and got credit for an educational course. As I understand it, this is class credit for an entire course. And it's religious instruction. On the public's dime.


If it were Muslim or Jewish or Wiccan or Scientology religious instruction taxpayers were footing the bill for I think Patriot might feel differently. I'm hoping for an answer to my earlier post.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

It is parallel. Sort of, lol.

Just one point: When I say "credit," I'm not talking about an hour here or there that kids weren't docked for missing a few classes and got credit for an educational course. As I understand it, this is class credit for an entire course. And it's religious instruction. On the public's dime.


If it were Muslim or Jewish or Wiccan or Scientology religious instruction taxpayers were footing the bill for I think Patriot might feel differently. I'm hoping for an answer to my earlier post.

At the High School level, I would have no problem with a comparative religion class...but I think the best way to handle his type of class (in the OP) is the release program, rather than an in school class. Now, understand that protects other Christian religions as well, that though they are all Christian, have different beliefs, and different translations of the Bible.

[Lyvia]

Originally Posted by Tracian

At the High School level, I would have no problem with a comparative religion class...but I think the best way to handle his type of class (in the OP) is the release program, rather than an in school class. Now, understand that protects other Christian religions as well, that though they are all Christian, have different beliefs, and different translations of the Bible.

But how often would the children be released? If they're going to miss too much regular school I don't think that's right either.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

But how often would the children be released? If they're going to miss too much regular school I don't think that's right either.

Well, like I said, it has already happened, and that is why I brought it up.

That walks a fine line also, can the government object or stop a child with parental consent to religious instruction, even if it means releasing them from public school for a certain amount of time each week, or month?

[Lyvia]

Originally Posted by Tracian

Well, like I said, it has already happened, and that is why I brought it up.

That walks a fine line also, can the government object or stop a child with parental consent to religious instruction, even if it means releasing them from public school for a certain amount of time each week, or month?

I think the government darn well better, lol, or some parents would never teach the child a thing but scripture. But I know--what's legal and Constitutional?

I'd like to think that a child simply has to be at school a certain amount of time to earn credit, a diploma, what have you. Unless there are tutors or something, or the child is home schooled. For the good of the child.

I remain steadfast in saying religious instruction has no place in public school.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

I think the government darn well better, lol, or some parents would never teach the child a thing but scripture. But I know--what's legal and Constitutional?

I'd like to think that a child simply has to be at school a certain amount of time to earn credit, a diploma, what have you. Unless there are tutors or something, or the child is home schooled. For the good of the child.

I remain steadfast in saying religious instruction has no place in public school.

There are many children that attend religious schools (private) that basically are not getting much more than scripture instruction; thus far, aside from perhaps limiting their higher education to like minded Colleges, it is legal as long as the school meets the basic state standards.

I have no problem with a comparitive religion class being taught, again at a high school level, perhaps limitted to Seniors and Juniors, only because in general children are limitted to knowledge of other faiths, and orgins based on their own upbringing. Such knowledge may help with tolerance.

[Lyvia]

But what about the class that this thread is about? I linked to the organization's site. It's not comparative religion. It's not release time. What do you think (I don't see where you've weighed in on this specifically and I'd like your take--apologies if you have).

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

But what about the class that this thread is about? I linked to the organization's site. It's not comparative religion. It's not release time. What do you think (I don't see where you've weighed in on this specifically and I'd like your take--apologies if you have).

Oh..I touched on it..in this post:

Originally Posted by Tracian
At the High School level, I would have no problem with a comparative religion class...but I think the best way to handle his type of class (in the OP) is the release program, rather than an in school class. Now, understand that protects other Christian religions as well, that though they are all Christian, have different beliefs, and different translations of the Bible.

I don't think it as offered should be an elective, because as I also stated, it protects other Christian religions as well, as even though they basically have the same believes, they all have slightly different translations of the Bible and how to worship.

[Lyvia]

Thanks. I had seen that, but wasn't sure about what you meant, as I couldn't imagine THIS program working as a release program, since they'd miss on for-credit class for another. Which would suggest they'd miss every class of the on-site one if they were both for the same amount of credit.

That made sense in my head.

Thanks for elaborating. I find this really interesting and always enjoy your POV.

[Details]

Originally Posted by Patriot

What are they suing over? What damages have they suffered? Perhaps they missed the words "elective" and "choice". For decades, people of faith have been told to "turn the channel" or "just don't participate" if something offends them. Perhaps these people should take the same advice when practicing their "freedom from religion" and allow others their Constitutional freedom of religion.

My tax dollars and precious school time and resources being used to indoctrinate children - that's the damage. We do have separation of church and state, for this very specific issue, that the government will in NO way endorse any religion - this is a definite endorsement.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Lyvia

Thanks. I had seen that, but wasn't sure about what you meant, as I couldn't imagine THIS program working as a release program, since they'd miss on for-credit class for another. Which would suggest they'd miss every class of the on-site one if they were both for the same amount of credit.

That made sense in my head.

Thanks for elaborating. I find this really interesting and always enjoy your POV.

I guess the only way this would possibly work as a release class, is if in some way community service could be part of the program. I know at our high school, students have to complete 15 hours of community service in order to graduate; that service can include religious affiliation.

I also enjoy seeing you in print Lyvia, it is always interesting and insightful.

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Details

My tax dollars and precious school time and resources being used to indoctrinate children - that's the damage. We do have separation of church and state, for this very specific issue, that the government will in NO way endorse any religion - this is a definite endorsement.

Children are indoctrinated every day in the public school system. I guess it comes down to which indoctrination is acceptable to you and which isn't. No, we don't have separation of church and state, that statement was just in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote (to a church, no less) and is not a law or policy. What is though, is the freedom of religion. I agree with you that the government should never endorse any religion but disagree that this is endorsing any. It's an elective - a free choice which is what our country is all about, at least until the anti-choice secularists win. Offering something for anyone who is interested isn't endorsement but it is providing diversity.

[Patriot]

(snip)

Originally Posted by Tracian

There are many children that attend religious schools (private) that basically are not getting much more than scripture instruction;

I would disagree with that, Tracian. Private religious school does not equal substandard education. Often, the opposite is true - the education gotten is superior to the public schools which are substandard and is why parents sacrifice to send their children to such.

[Tracian]

Originally Posted by Patriot

(snip)

I would disagree with that, Tracian. Private religious school does not equal substandard education. Often, the opposite is true - the education gotten is superior to the public schools which are substandard and is why parents sacrifice to send their children to such.

Now, I am not going to disagree, because there are some very good Relgious based schools that do give a very well rounded education that includes modern science; while also staying firm on the spiritual belief of creationism.

In my rather rural area, we have had several 'Christian Schools' crop up...and sadly they fall under a loop hole that does not even require teachers to be accredited. (In fact Judge Judy actually had a case about one of our local schools that fall into this category, the principle and teacher just had high school educations)

I do take issue with those schools that use 'religion' as a way to skirt around properly teaching children; as it is, children that attended these type of schools were not prepared for public 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12th grade (most of the ones I refer can only teach up to 6th grade)


I should have been more clear in regards to the post you replied to.

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Tracian

Now, I am not going to disagree, because there are some very good Relgious based schools that do give a very well rounded education that includes modern science; while also staying firm on the spiritual belief of creationism.

In my rather rural area, we have had several 'Christian Schools' crop up...and sadly they fall under a loop hole that does not even require teachers to be accredited. (In fact Judge Judy actually had a case about one of our local schools that fall into this category, the principle and teacher just had high school educations)

I do take issue with those schools that use 'religion' as a way to skirt around properly teaching children; as it is, children that attended these type of schools were not prepared for public 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12th grade (most of the ones I refer can only teach up to 6th grade)


I should have been more clear in regards to the post you replied to.

I am in a rural area too, though I doubt such schools are contained to just rural areas. I know there are some of those tiny schools, sometimes with just 2 or 3 students in one particular grade, who are just struggling by and don't have the budget to provide an education far superior to the public schools. Although they still have a good curriculum and I've seen students from even those schools go on to good Universities. But I don't think you are talking about those types of schools, but actually substandard ones that don't teach a well rounded curriculum that don't go past elementary? Thankfully, I don't know of any of those around here but I don't doubt you that they exist.

And I saw that Judge Judy!

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Patriot

(snip)

I would disagree with that, Tracian. Private religious school does not equal substandard education. Often, the opposite is true - the education gotten is superior to the public schools which are substandard and is why parents sacrifice to send their children to such.

not when it comes to the sciences, they are lacking in that area sadly

christian schools are a business, they are not free, they are training kids to be customers for life, they sell religious dogma

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Patriot

Children are indoctrinated every day in the public school system. I guess it comes down to which indoctrination is acceptable to you and which isn't. No, we don't have separation of church and state, that statement was just in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote (to a church, no less) and is not a law or policy. What is though, is the freedom of religion. I agree with you that the government should never endorse any religion but disagree that this is endorsing any. It's an elective - a free choice which is what our country is all about, at least until the anti-choice secularists win. Offering something for anyone who is interested isn't endorsement but it is providing diversity.

no it is not, it's not a class, it's at a church for cryin out loud