Would you be worried about admitting your faith if....

[Details]

The President of the United States had been elected even after he said the following (hypothetical quote - modified from the link following):

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are Christians?

BushAlt: I guess I'm pretty weak in the Christian community. Belief in Allah is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are Christians?

BushAlt: No, I don't know that Christians should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under Allah.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

BushAlt: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on Christians.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...d_the_Atheists

Myself - were I a Christian (or even as someone who isn't one) - a chill would run through my veins knowing that was the belief of the leader of the country - and enough people to vote him into the highest office in the land.

[Doc Holliday]

Say I belonged to the Church of Theopanism. If I heard the president say "theopanists are stupid, dumb, and shouldn't be considered equal citizens", then I would be highly insulted and angry.

Very angry.

But as long as he also said that he believed in the separation of church and state, I would take comfort in knowing that he can't act on his idiotic opinion.

So, does the support for church/state separation trump, at least a little, the insulting attitude towards (theopanists, atheists, Christians, whatever)?

And, how comfortable I would be in admitting my faith would have more to do with how many people I felt agreed with the President's opinion, and not on the President's opinion alone.



(btw, I couldn't get your link to work)

[Details]

Thanks for the headsup - try this:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...d_the_Atheists

[Details]

Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Say I belonged to the Church of Theopanism. If I heard the president say "theopanists are stupid, dumb, and shouldn't be considered equal citizens", then I would be highly insulted and angry.

Very angry.

But as long as he also said that he believed in the separation of church and state, I would take comfort in knowing that he can't act on his idiotic opinion.

So, does the support for church/state separation trump, at least a little, the insulting attitude towards (theopanists, atheists, Christians, whatever)?

And, how comfortable I would be in admitting my faith would have more to do with how many people I felt agreed with the President's opinion, and not on the President's opinion alone.

Didn't say 'they' weren't equal citizens - but that they weren't citizens. Separation of church and state and all the protections hardly apply if you aren't a citizen.

Support for separation of church and state are empty words when enough people don't care about it - any place those words can be spoken about any group, and more than half the nation will vote for the guy anyways - you don't want to be in that group.

[Doc Holliday]

Originally Posted by Details

Didn't say 'they' weren't equal citizens - but that they weren't citizens. Separation of church and state and all the protections hardly apply if you aren't a citizen.

Can a local government pass a law preventing any non-citizen Muslim (for example a visiting professor at the local university) from attending a local mosque? Wouldn't that law would be struck down, despite the fact it was aimed at non-citizens?

Regardless, the president's words do not define citizenship.

Originally Posted by Details

Support for separation of church and state are empty words when enough people don't care about it - any place those words can be spoken about any group, and more than half the nation will vote for the guy anyways - you don't want to be in that group.

I suppose anything becomes hollow if enough people lose interest in supporting it. But to address your point, you don't want to be in that group if and only if the majority who voted for the guy did so because of his opinion of atheists.

It's perfectly possible the majority voted for him despite his opinion of atheists, in which case there is no fear about belonging to that group. Right?

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by Details

Thanks for the headsup - try this:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...d_the_Atheists

This is a disturbing statement. No president can stand and say a portion of our population is less of a citizen for their religious beliefs than another. Had this man ever read our Constitution and Bill of Rights?

[Details]

Originally Posted by Carol25

This is a disturbing statement. No president can stand and say a portion of our population is less of a citizen for their religious beliefs than another. Had this man ever read our Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Obviously he doesn't believe in our Constitution. Had he picked any target but atheists, he couldn't have gotten away with it, I'm sure.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by franker01

This seems like a kind of dubious source, Carol.

Interesting that the "source" is able to discern the "interviewer's" mental state ("somewhat taken aback").

While damning at the first read, I think I'd take it with a rather large grain of salt!

this is a well know quote, show me one link were bush denied making that quote or where his views differ from that quote, good luck cause it doesn't exist

[Details]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

this is a well know quote, show me one link were bush denied making that quote or where his views differ from that quote, good luck cause it doesn't exist

Yep - I researched the quote first to be sure it was real - that's why the sourcewatch link - not something with a bias.

If he didn't say it, if he didn't believe it - a denial is simple enough. There is none.

[Lynden1000]

It was an asinine quote from someone who has a history of making asinine quotes.

But in a country where 50% of the population still claims to believe that the world was created in six days approximately 6000 years ago, what the heck do you expect?

It's no surprise that politicians make derogatory comments toward atheists. They're more likely to get cheers than boos, so it's a no-brainer for them.

As long as they don't try to take my rights away, I couldn't care less what kind of dunderheaded comments they make about atheists. And if they do try to take my rights away, well then they better come prepared.

[Carol25]

franker, thank you for your posts. I would like to believe this source is questionable. As for people selecting parts of the Constitution the would honor, I believe more people do that with organized religion, than with the Constitution , myself.

I haven't run across you for a while. Good to see you again.

[Lynden1000]

Originally Posted by Stormy

You have every right to believe that people who believe in God are asinine, but God still loves you and I do too.

Godspeed.

P.S. Do people REALLY believe everything they read or just pick and choose what suits their opinions?

If you actually paid attention you would notice that I was referring to Bush's quote that atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots.

THAT was an asinine quote, and I stand by it. IMO, so should you, theist or not.

PS- You should never believe everything you read. That's why documentation is important. Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, Bush's quote is well documented.

[Details]

If Bush's initial quote is acceptable - makes sense that one that refers to a religion other than his would be too - and that is where everyone - religious or not - can see it as an asinine quote.

Stormy - would you be protesting the use of the word 'asinine' if Bush had said what I wrote in the opening post? Or is it only OK when atheists are the target?

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by franker01

Numerically, I have no doubt at all that you're correct.

Of course, most of their picks and choices affect only themselves and not the rest of us.

Good to continue seeing you, also.

Thank you, franker01, that's the nice thing about personal choices, whether it be about religion or the constitution.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Stormy

You have every right to believe that people who believe in God are asinine, but God still loves you and I do too.

Godspeed.

P.S. Do people REALLY believe everything they read or just pick and choose what suits their opinions?

did you read the post you replied too? the poster in no way was saying people that believed in a god were asinine..., what's asinine is people that believe in a god saying those that do not are not true Americans and should have no rights - kinda ironic with the p.s. you posted there

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by Carol25

This is a disturbing statement. No president can stand and say a portion of our population is less of a citizen for their religious beliefs than another. Had this man ever read our Constitution and Bill of Rights?