Recoverng from religion.

[Cooper]

www.kansascity.com/238/story/1249250.html

“It is almost easier to come out of the closet as gay than as an atheist, especially in the Midwest,” he said. “My hope for RR is that when people are ready to leave religion they have a group for support.”


www.recoveringreligionists.com/

We are recovering Baptists, Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah Wittnesses, Hindus, Moslems, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and more.

[Carol25]

Perhaps these people have been disillusioned by the man made rules of their own church. In the end, their faith in the Almighty will return and they will begin with a personal spirituality and relationship with Him.

[LisaM22]

it's sad that those that believe different have to keep their beliefs secret or risk the crazy religious fanatics in this country effecting their school, jobs and lives, very sad

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Patriot2

You hit the nail on the head, Carol. Perhaps these people have been following a religion. Religion leads nowhere or worse, as they have found. I've never understood those who follow a religion, but I wish them the peace of a relationship.


IMO.

so many just believe what they grew up with, very few search for the truth out of fear of rejection from those they love, friends and family, sad really that they have to keep up the charade out of fear

[Details]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

it's sad that those that believe different have to keep their beliefs secret or risk the crazy religious fanatics in this country effecting their school, jobs and lives, very sad

It's the truth though.

I've 'come out' as an atheist occasionally to friend/coworkers - they've come up with comments that blatantly state I have no ethics nor morals (not even as an insult - just as an obvious fact if I am an atheist - they seem quite puzzled when I contradict this assumption - and this from people who have had abortions, promiscuous sex, lesbians, etc., who have no reason to doubt my ethics - I was a studious, celibate, hardworking college student), people (even Presidents) talk about how we aren't really citizens, polls show we'd be the last group people would accept as a President - they'd vote for a Muslim over an atheist. People will freely say - and have others agree - that atheists should have to commit to God - or find their 'own' country.

Being an admitted atheist is not very safe, and there is a lot of prejudice. Here I'll admit it. Elsewhere - I don't usually tell. I don't lie - but I sure don't tell. I learned that one early on. Unbelievable what you hear when you do tell. How many things people just assume they know about you.


I hope more and more people do tell - just like gays - if enough people speak up, the bigots find out atheists don't much resemble the bogeyman pictures they've imagined, that they are friends and coworkers and neighbors who are as (or more) ethical as believers. I try to be open enough about it - fortunately the subject doesn't tend to come up.

[joolz]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Perhaps these people have been disillusioned by the man made rules of their own church. In the end, their faith in the Almighty will return and they will begin with a personal spirituality and relationship with Him.

What if it doesn't? What if these people are ethical, moral folks who just don't need to believe in a deity? Do you judge them in some way for that, or just accept it as an alternative way of thinking?

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by joolz

What if it doesn't? What if these people are ethical, moral folks who just don't need to believe in a deity? Do you judge them in some way for that, or just accept it as an alternative way of thinking?

Joolz, you pointed out an error in my statement. It should have read, "may" instead of "will" begin a realationship with Him.

And no, I wouldn't dare judge. Each person has a choice as I do. I have no qualms with their choice. It is Someone Else's job to judge.

Matter of fact, I select my friends according to how they treat others. Their spiritual preferences don't enter into that. Thank you for your response, joolz.

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Joolz, you pointed out an error in my statement. It should have read, "may" instead of "will" begin a realationship with Him.

And no, I wouldn't dare judge. Each person has a choice as I do. I have no qualms with their choice. It is Someone Else's job to judge.

Matter of fact, I select my friends according to how they treat others. Their spiritual preferences don't enter into that. Thank you for your response, joolz.

Carol, you are always so well spoken. Thank you.

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by Details

It's the truth though.

I've 'come out' as an atheist occasionally to friend/coworkers - they've come up with comments that blatantly state I have no ethics nor morals (not even as an insult - just as an obvious fact if I am an atheist - they seem quite puzzled when I contradict this assumption - and this from people who have had abortions, promiscuous sex, lesbians, etc., who have no reason to doubt my ethics - I was a studious, celibate, hardworking college student), people (even Presidents) talk about how we aren't really citizens, polls show we'd be the last group people would accept as a President - they'd vote for a Muslim over an atheist. People will freely say - and have others agree - that atheists should have to commit to God - or find their 'own' country.

Being an admitted atheist is not very safe, and there is a lot of prejudice. Here I'll admit it. Elsewhere - I don't usually tell. I don't lie - but I sure don't tell. I learned that one early on. Unbelievable what you hear when you do tell. How many things people just assume they know about you.


I hope more and more people do tell - just like gays - if enough people speak up, the bigots find out atheists don't much resemble the bogeyman pictures they've imagined, that they are friends and coworkers and neighbors who are as (or more) ethical as believers. I try to be open enough about it - fortunately the subject doesn't tend to come up.

Thanks, Detail. In my religious tradition, what you believe is of little importance.... the emphasis is on what you do.


I would make no character assumptions about a person who does not believe in a deity and certainly not any negative ones.

[joolz]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Joolz, you pointed out an error in my statement. It should have read, "may" instead of "will" begin a realationship with Him.

And no, I wouldn't dare judge. Each person has a choice as I do. I have no qualms with their choice. It is Someone Else's job to judge.

Matter of fact, I select my friends according to how they treat others. Their spiritual preferences don't enter into that. Thank you for your response, joolz.

Thanks for the reply, Carol. I also select my friends according to how they treat others, and whether or not someone believes in the existence of a deity is not important to me at all. I figure whatever works personally to make people behave kindly and compassionately is enough. I guess it's pretty much as simple as the golden rule for me. jmo

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Joolz, you pointed out an error in my statement. It should have read, "may" instead of "will" begin a realationship with Him.

And no, I wouldn't dare judge. Each person has a choice as I do. I have no qualms with their choice. It is Someone Else's job to judge.

Matter of fact, I select my friends according to how they treat others. Their spiritual preferences don't enter into that. Thank you for your response, joolz.

I think that is the problem with many, they think their beliefs give them the right to judge others and think it is their job to force others to believe as they do, personally I think there is no god that will judge a person harshly for not believing in a bible and\or a god

[Details]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

I think that is the problem with many, they think their beliefs give them the right to judge others and think it is their job to force others to believe as they do, personally I think there is no god that will judge a person harshly for not believing in a bible and\or a god

I always think many of the people who want to push others to believe as they do (Carol - I'm not describing your post) - have little faith in their own faith - they want numbers to make them feel more secure in their own choice. Seeing someone content and functional with a different choice makes them wonder about their own. Those who truly believe - whatever it is they believe - don't need this reinforcement.

I don't pick nor judge friends based on their beliefs - of course. But (back to the original article) - I can sure see how in a particularly hostile area, it'd be nice for those who don't fit into the established beliefs to have their own group to go to, just to talk unguardedly, to be out of the closet, to say what they believe without worry that one of the hostile or ignorant responses would come up.

[Carol25]

Lisa, I think it was you who had mentioned that many athiests stay in the closet out of fear. And I was going to challenge you on that until I remembered one Thanksgiving I came home from college wearing a cross. My agnostic father just simply asked if I had changed to catholicism. He wasn't angry but my blood pressure rose as if I had done the worst crime and was guilty. I said no, it was non denominational. It was about God. But I had to leave the table for I couldn't breathe.

So, I do understand. And isn't that a shame. But that I think is more family dynamics that religion, don't you think? Being able to have confidence in what you believe. And standing up and saying it. he never knew how I believed the same thing when I was at home. I just hid it better and attended church when I was at school.

But people have to learn to be tolerant of each others as individuals. That's how we want them to be as us. They are not asking our permission or us to join them. They are sharing something about them just like friends do. Accept that. And accept them as a friend. We can even ask them about their religion or anti religion. It's not a subject to be off limits. They may have questions they have always wanted to know about you and yours. Don't convert. If asked, just share. Like a good recipe. Like good friends do.

Isn't it nice we don't have to be right, and we don't have to be wrong because we don't have to judge. Whew!

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Lisa, I think it was you who had mentioned that many athiests stay in the closet out of fear. And I was going to challenge you on that until I remembered one Thanksgiving I came home from college wearing a cross. My agnostic father just simply asked if I had changed to catholicism. He wasn't angry but my blood pressure rose as if I had done the worst crime and was guilty. I said no, it was non denominational. It was about God. But I had to leave the table for I couldn't breathe. <snip>

not sure I understand, he was not angry, you were wearing a cross openly which you state was not the norm for you and he asked you about it, why upset about it?

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Carol25

<snip>

But people have to learn to be tolerant of each others as individuals. That's how we want them to be as us. They are not asking our permission or us to join them. They are sharing something about them just like friends do. Accept that. And accept them as a friend. We can even ask them about their religion or anti religion. It's not a subject to be off limits. They may have questions they have always wanted to know about you and yours. Don't convert. If asked, just share. Like a good recipe. Like good friends do.

Isn't it nice we don't have to be right, and we don't have to be wrong because we don't have to judge. Whew!

I agree, it would be nice if everyone could be more tolerant, most are, it is the fanatics that ruin it and there are many of those

[Details]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Lisa, I think it was you who had mentioned that many athiests stay in the closet out of fear. And I was going to challenge you on that until I remembered one Thanksgiving I came home from college wearing a cross. My agnostic father just simply asked if I had changed to catholicism. He wasn't angry but my blood pressure rose as if I had done the worst crime and was guilty. I said no, it was non denominational. It was about God. But I had to leave the table for I couldn't breathe.

So, I do understand. And isn't that a shame. But that I think is more family dynamics that religion, don't you think? Being able to have confidence in what you believe. And standing up and saying it. he never knew how I believed the same thing when I was at home. I just hid it better and attended church when I was at school....

That's family dynamics. However - when you have people who actually believe an atheist has no morals or ethics - you think those people would choose to hire, promote, or rent to an atheist? There's reason to fear. Places where the first question asked is what church you go to, societal shunning is something to fear, very realistically.

A recent President of the United States said he didn't think atheists were real citizens. More than once I've heard people suggesting atheists should convert or leave the country - yes, there's reason to fear admitting you are an atheist. Lots of prejudice, false stereotypes, and bigotry out there.

Not much different than admitting you are of any religion that many are intolerant of - I'm sure Muslims have the same issues and that some do the same thing - just don't mention it, out of fear that the person they are around, however nice and openminded they may seem, might have a problem with it.

Would you be worried about admitting your faith, if the President of the United States was on record saying this (hypothetical quote - modified from the link following):

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are Christians?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the Christian community. Belief in Allah is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are Christians?

Bush: No, I don't know that Christians should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under Allah.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on Christians.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...d_the_Atheists

Myself - were I a Christian (or even as someone who isn't one) - a chill would run through my veins knowing that was the belief of the leader of the country - and enough people to vote him into the highest office in the land.

[Brentwood]

I believe in spiritualism, not religion. IMO, there is not an old guy on a throne that rules us all. Has anyone read Edgar Cayce's books? I can say what I think here because it is anonymous, but if someone asked me that I work with, I would say I am Christian.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Brentwood

I believe in spiritualism, not religion. IMO, there is not an old guy on a throne that rules us all. Has anyone read Edgar Cayce's books? I can say what I think here because it is anonymous, but if someone asked me that I work with, I would say I am Christian.

have to check them out, I like this one 2150 A.D. by Thea Alexander

http://www.amazon.com/2150-D-Thea-Pl...5122102&sr=8-2

[Details]

I think more and more people are heading towards spiritualism. A belief in some higher power, even a God - but not in the organized religions, religious books. Sounds to me like RR might be a spot for them as well. Someplace for those who don't fit into the religious group to get together.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Details

I think more and more people are heading towards spiritualism. A belief in some higher power, even a God - but not in the organized religions, religious books. Sounds to me like RR might be a spot for them as well. Someplace for those who don't fit into the religious group to get together.

I think your right, that is what I have been seeing too

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

have to check them out, I like this one 2150 A.D. by Thea Alexander

http://www.amazon.com/2150-D-Thea-Pl...5122102&sr=8-2

Lisa, I checked out the comments on this book. It really sounds like so many people were inspired by it. I will be looking for a copy myself. Thank you.

[Lynden1000]

I think part of the reason why there is hesitation to come out as an atheist is because so many people have the confused notion that "atheist" means "anti-theist." So when they discover that they're talking to an atheist, they immediately assume a defensive posture, expecting imminent attack. The conversation usually goes downhill from there.

Online I rarely hesitate to say that I am an atheist; but in the "real world" I usually stick to vague euphemisms like "nonreligious." A bit of a cop-out, I know, but I prefer to steer clear of confrontation unless I'm in the mood for it.

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by Lynden1000

I think part of the reason why there is hesitation to come out as an atheist is because so many people have the confused notion that "atheist" means "anti-theist." So when they discover that they're talking to an atheist, they immediately assume a defensive posture, expecting imminent attack. The conversation usually goes downhill from there.

Online I rarely hesitate to say that I am an atheist; but in the "real world" I usually stick to vague euphemisms like "nonreligious." A bit of a cop-out, I know, but I prefer to steer clear of confrontation unless I'm in the mood for it.

Good idea. For most, the ambiguity will be temporary. Once they think about, they'll figure it out.

[Doc Holliday]

Originally Posted by Details

I think more and more people are heading towards spiritualism. A belief in some higher power, even a God - but not in the organized religions, religious books. Sounds to me like RR might be a spot for them as well. Someplace for those who don't fit into the religious group to get together.

Spiritualism, specifically, denotes the belief system (or religion) that was most popular in the late 1800's and early 1900's, notably characterized by the use of mediums to contact the dead.

Even today there are Spiritualist Churches.

I think the way 'spiritualism' is being used on this thread instead refers to somebody who considers himself/herself to be a 'spiritual' person, with 'spiritual beliefs', but not beholden to a specific religion or doctrine.

Yes?

[Details]

I think so.

It sounds like it's also pretty much the same as Deism - popular with our founding fathers. A belief that there is some higher power - but that it's pretty much hands off aside from starting the universe up.

Although I've always thought that it's likely for some people of that era, Deism was a way to be an atheist or agnostic during a time when that would not be tolerated. But that's just my wild guess.

[Doc Holliday]

Originally Posted by Details

I think so.

It sounds like it's also pretty much the same as Deism - popular with our founding fathers. A belief that there is some higher power - but that it's pretty much hands off aside from starting the universe up.

Although I've always thought that it's likely for some people of that era, Deism was a way to be an atheist or agnostic during a time when that would not be tolerated. But that's just my wild guess.

The Deists strike me as rationalists. The Word of God is nature itself; the study of nature (science) is the study of the Word of God.

Maybe some people used Deism as a cover for atheism/agnosticism, but certainly Tom Paine didn't. His strong belief in God, as well as a hope for an existence beyond death, shine through in his book "The Age of Reason". And if there was ever a classical example of a Deist, it was Tom Paine.

The Age of Reason was such a vicious attack on Christianity and revealed religion, that I can't imagine anybody proclaiming Deism as a way of deflecting criticism for atheism/agnosticism. Well, after the Era of Tom Paine, anyway.

[joolz]

Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

The Deists strike me as rationalists. The Word of God is nature itself; the study of nature (science) is the study of the Word of God.

Maybe some people used Deism as a cover for atheism/agnosticism, but certainly Tom Paine didn't. His strong belief in God, as well as a hope for an existence beyond death, shine through in his book "The Age of Reason". And if there was ever a classical example of a Deist, it was Tom Paine.

The Age of Reason was such a vicious attack on Christianity and revealed religion, that I can't imagine anybody proclaiming Deism as a way of deflecting criticism for atheism/agnosticism. Well, after the Era of Tom Paine, anyway.

Right on both counts - Deism and spiritualism. Have you ever read anything about Conan Doyle's belief in spiritualism? Very interesting aspect of the man. jmo

[Doc Holliday]

Originally Posted by joolz

Right on both counts - Deism and spiritualism. Have you ever read anything about Conan Doyle's belief in spiritualism? Very interesting aspect of the man. jmo

I read about Sir Arthur in the pages of The Skeptical Inquirer.

Coincidentally, when I looked up the issue, http://www.csicop.org/si/9803/, I discovered that's also the same issue with the Martin Gardner interview.

Gardner has been called the 'father of modern day skepticism' by some, since his book "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" sort of got the skeptical side of things rolling.

Yet, despite being the scourge of paranormalists, and a founder of organized skepticism, Gardner is a theist; he believes in both God and immortality. His book "The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener" is a detailed exposition on what Gardner believes and why (another book that I loved, by the great mathematician and logician Raymond Smullyan, called "Who Knows", was written partly in response to his friend Gardner's book).

The only reason I bring this up is that I remember Gardner saying somewhere that it wouldn't be too inaccurate to call him a Deist. Sort of. Or something like that.

[Lesliej1406]

What to believe? a good question. I find letting experience and my trust and faith in my inner knower is the most satisfying and gratifying.

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Perhaps these people have been disillusioned by the man made rules of their own church. In the end, their faith in the Almighty will return and they will begin with a personal spirituality and relationship with Him.

Carol,

Perhaps it won't. Then what?

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by Brentwood

I believe in spiritualism, not religion. IMO, there is not an old guy on a throne that rules us all. Has anyone read Edgar Cayce's books? I can say what I think here because it is anonymous, but if someone asked me that I work with, I would say I am Christian.

When I tell folks I am not Christian (where I live the majority..bible belt like) they seem shocked and almost offended that non Christians even exist.

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by Cooper

Carol,

Perhaps it won't. Then what?

All people have a choice. We can only be concerned with our own choices.

I know as a guide in a study group, you are concerned with the choices of others, but we cannot rule their minds. They have to take that personal responsibility on their own.

[Carol25]

Originally Posted by Cooper

When I tell folks I am not Christian (where I live the majority..bible belt like) they seem shocked and almost offended that non Christians even exist.

I think that is a good lesson for them. It may make them think twice about tolerance. When they walk off, saying , "But he's so nice!..." It shows them that people with different beliefs are not that different at all and if we really talked there is much the same beliefs we share! People really do have to get out more!

[momof6]

LisaM22: You stated that it would be nice if everyone could be more tolerant and that the fanatics ruin it.

First off, when you call someone a fanatic, you are saying you disagree with them. A person you believe to be a fanatic, does not concider themselves a fanatic. They just have strong feelings about something that is important to them. Just like we all do, when something is important to us.

If you really think it would be nice if everyone could be more tolerant, then you need to be more tolerant of people you call fanatics. Do they not have the right to think the way they do?

I'm not trying to start any discord, I really don't understand how on one hand people preach tolerance, but they are intolerant of others views.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by momof6

LisaM22: You stated that it would be nice if everyone could be more tolerant and that the fanatics ruin it.

First off, when you call someone a fanatic, you are saying you disagree with them. A person you believe to be a fanatic, does not concider themselves a fanatic. They just have strong feelings about something that is important to them. Just like we all do, when something is important to us.

If you really think it would be nice if everyone could be more tolerant, then you need to be more tolerant of people you call fanatics. Do they not have the right to think the way they do?

I'm not trying to start any discord, I really don't understand how on one hand people preach tolerance, but they are intolerant of others views.

as long as the religious fanatics do not cross the line to trying to take away the rights of others by passing unjust laws or by terrorizing others, i am very tolerant of them, do not agree with them, but tolerant of them as long as they do not try and take away the rights of others, that is where their rights end and the ones they are discriminating against begin

[LisaM22]

"Athiest Denied Adoption Rights"

http://digg.com/people/Athiest_Denied_Adoption_Rights

"time.com — A judge Newark is not allowing a couple to adopt on the grounds that the New Jersey state constitution declares that "no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience." "

why are religious fanatics like this allowed on the bench?

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Carol25

Lisa, I checked out the comments on this book. It really sounds like so many people were inspired by it. I will be looking for a copy myself. Thank you.

Hope you like it, one of the best books I have ever read

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by momof6

LisaM22: You stated that it would be nice if everyone could be more tolerant and that the fanatics ruin it.

First off, when you call someone a fanatic, you are saying you disagree with them. A person you believe to be a fanatic, does not concider themselves a fanatic. They just have strong feelings about something that is important to them. Just like we all do, when something is important to us.
<snio>

http://www.tfd.com/fanatic

"A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause."