1/23 thru 1/25

[wolfi_2]

that´s right, this case was in the newspaper and a few times on TV here in Germany and I think in a lot of other country´s too. And as I know, there are all way's some consequences taken, I know a few, people to whom I speak about this case, they canceled their vacation trip into the US or would never decide one in the near future. Because for me and a lot of people here, it´s still unbelievable to try an 8 or 9 year old boy in court. Incarnation of a child in solitary, shackling ,handcuffing, no picture of mom, no contact visit´s with his mom (speaking through a wall of glass), It's against all our human feeling's!

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by HotNostril

I think they're working on a deal.....discovery is coming back and it's a little too quiet.

Good Morning Everyone! It's supposed to be 70 here today. Yippee!

I think something sure is happening. The DA may be holding back on releasing the rest of the evidence so that it can't be seen by the public. That might be in the negotiations if a plea deal is being considered by the defense.

Lets see in the 29th hearing how much Brewer/Wood is protesting that discovery is not back. I noticed in the January 6th hearing the defense attorneys weren't yelling that they weren't receiving discovery in a timely basis.

imoo

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

Good Morning Everyone! It's supposed to be 70 here today. Yippee!

I think something sure is happening. The DA may be holding back on releasing the rest of the evidence so that it can't be seen by the public. That might be in the negotiations if a plea deal is being considered by the defense.

Lets see in the 29th hearing how much Brewer/Wood is protesting that discovery is not back. I noticed in the January 6th hearing the defense attorneys weren't yelling that they weren't receiving discovery in a timely basis.

imoo

Didn't the judge tell the prosecution that the end of Jan. is the deadline for presenting lab evidence?

[Cherishlove]

Originally Posted by hotnostril

the confession is just one of many things that make me believe this child is guilty. I've stated my reasons many times.

Yes, false confessions do occur. I never said they didn't.

I am quite certain i would be very upset if it were to happen to any of my loved ones. I wouldn't expect everyone on message boards all over the internet to share my opinion nor would i expect posters to afford my loved one the presumption of innocence. I would hope the jury would.

If you need an example of posters totally disregarding the presumption of innocence, take a look at the casey anthony board.

i haven't read the casey anothony board, but that woman didn't report her child missing for a month and there are tons of evidence against that woman. It's a no wonder most people feel she is guilty. This is a little boy who is too young to even defend himself and there isn't much evidence imo at all. I feel the boy is innocent, but if they wanted to arrest someone without a proper investigation it should of been the living adult in that home left alive that is responsible for this child, they left guns/ammo unlocked.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Didn't the judge tell the prosecution that the end of Jan. is the deadline for presenting lab evidence?

He did not give an affirmative deadline that it must be back then or heads would roll. He like most Judges urged that it be done by a certain date and thinks that time is adequate. Even Judge Roca commented how he knew getting test results back can be a pain. (paraphrasing of course) If there is a straggler or two then he will again address that in the next hearing, I would think.

imoo

'

[Perplexed1]

Originally Posted by Cherishlove

i haven't read the casey anothony board, but that woman didn't report her child missing for a month and there are tons of evidence against that woman. It's a no wonder most people feel she is guilty. This is a little boy who is too young to even defend himself and there isn't much evidence imo at all. I feel the boy is innocent, but if they wanted to arrest someone without a proper investigation it should of been the living adult in that home left alive that is responsible for this child, they left guns/ammo unlocked.

Very good, Cherish.

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

He did not give an affirmative deadline that it must be back then or heads would roll. He like most Judges urged that it be done by a certain date and thinks that time is adequate. Even Judge Roca commented how he knew getting test results back can be a pain. (paraphrasing of course) If there is a straggler or two then he will again address that in the next hearing, I would think.

imoo

'

I don't understand. What could take so long? Tests on the rifle and casings should take about an hour. What DNA would be tested? It's the boys home! Fingerprints? Another hour or two. What would that prove anyway? (The child's prints). Mr. Haag's gunshot reenactment might take a day.
Even the mental evaluations were completed weeks ago.
If aviation moved as slow as the legal system we'd never have gotten past bi-planes. If the medical profession was this slow we'd have to go for our 'bleeding'...........leeches, etc....

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Cherishlove

i haven't read the casey anothony board, but that woman didn't report her child missing for a month and there are tons of evidence against that woman. It's a no wonder most people feel she is guilty. This is a little boy who is too young to even defend himself and there isn't much evidence imo at all. I feel the boy is innocent, but if they wanted to arrest someone without a proper investigation it should of been the living adult in that home left alive that is responsible for this child, they left guns/ammo unlocked.

Casey Anthony lives in Florida that is under the Sunshine law where all evidence is exposed before trial. Florida cases are very open and exposed beforehand.

There are many other cases that do not happen in Florida where only a glimpse of the evidence is revealed before trial. So to me this boy's case is typical expect for the age of the defendant. Countless cases discussed here the suspect is not given a presumption of innocence. That is a legal requirement only afforded to a defendant in their trial by a jury or presiding Judge. It has nothing to do with an opinion board. I would say in the majority of cases discussed here the posters are usually about 85% for guilt and 15% for innocence before any trial is held. We are all afforded our rights to have an opinion, whether it turns out to be wrong or right, it really doesn't matter, since we, as the public, do not have to presume anything one way or the other before a trial is held.

While you say you see no evidence of his guilt that doesn't ever mean it doesn't exist. The Judge, Prosecutor and the defense attorneys know plenty and truthfully we do not know all the evidence by a long shot.

I think they arrested him because they had probable cause to do so just like in any other case. Once that happens then it is up to the Prosecutor to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe they will do so, without his confession.

imo

[Cherishlove]

Originally Posted by HotNostril

I get it...so ...if the majority on some message board believes someone is guilty than presumption of innocence goes out the window????

Seems like hypocritcy to me.

My point was...... there is no presumption of innocence on a message board. It's for the jury.

My point was I can see why most people would feel this woman is guilty, but with this child and not much evidence yet at all, it's hard to understand for alot of people including myself why someone would assume he is guilty.

[muska]

Might it be quiet simply because Woods is on vacation?

Originally Posted by minnesotamom

i was glad to read about something positive in st.johns. there is a woman who happens to be a local author working on her 3rd book and expecting to deliver her 7th child in february. wow!! there has been so much bad stuff going around due to the little boy and i was just glad to read about something positive for a change. maybe that is a good sign for good to come. lets hope and pray so.

Those books about birthin' babies?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Hawk

I don't understand. What could take so long? Tests on the rifle and casings should take about an hour. What DNA would be tested? It's the boys home! Fingerprints? Another hour or two. What would that prove anyway? (The child's prints). Mr. Haag's gunshot reenactment might take a day.
Even the mental evaluations were completed weeks ago.
If aviation moved as slow as the legal system we'd never have gotten past bi-planes. If the medical profession was this slow we'd have to go for our 'bleeding'...........leeches, etc....

First our labs all across the country are backlogged beyond belief. With the economy crunch I think it will only worsen. This is not the only gruesome murder that has occurred in Arizona, I am sure and other cases are also backlogged, such as rapes, assaults, attempted murder and other violent crimes that needs testing done.

The problem with this case is it is a juvenile but the crime is complex that requires extensive forensic testing due to the crimes.

It really isn't all that off than any other case I have seen here. It takes months for all the evidence to come back in. It even took over 2 months for them to get the DNA profile on the suspect back that murdered Sara Walker in Texas. So I don't see anything abnormal in the time span in this one which has many aspects to it.

imoo

What, if any, DNA are they testing?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Hawk

What, if any, DNA are they testing?

Who really knows, Hawk, that is like trying to read tealeaves.

They may have found bloody fingerprints or footprints in blood in the carpet. They can test for so much and in so many ways. We really have no idea what the crime scene revealed and if it lined up with the story he gave.

All I know they did ask for his hair/fingerprints/footprints and other dna and it was granted. So that means to me they aren't just testing the gun but are testing other things as well.

imoo

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

Who really knows, Hawk, that is like trying to read tealeaves.

They may have found bloody fingerprints or footprints in blood in the carpet. They can test for so much and in so many ways. We really have no idea what the crime scene revealed and if it lined up with the story he gave.

All I know they did ask for his hair/fingerprints/footprints and other dna and it was granted. So that means to me they aren't just testing the gun but are testing other things as well.

imoo

I understand. Sorry to be so dense though about what possible DNA they could have proving this boy did the deeds. A hair from his head on his dad's shirt? He hugged his dad that morning? Bloody footprints are meaningless too. After all, he did find the victims. And he lives in the house. If the state is doing all this it's a waste of taxpayers dollars. Anything they have in this regard can be easily explained away by his defence team. Or a discussion board poster.
I think they're smokin' the tealeaves.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by HotNostril

I am not having difficultly understanding why so many feel he's innocent. He's 8 and most people can't accept the fact that an 8 year old can do something so horrid. That's fine and I can respect your opinion.

I on the other hand see it differently, I am not emotionally invested in this child like so many others posting here. I view him like I would any other defendant.

I find it offensive when posters would go to such extremes as to accuse one of the victims of drug dealing with absolutely nothing to back it up, make bold accusations about family members of the deceased with ZERO evidence...even going as far as accusing them of double murder. I've read the most outlandish fabrications imaginable presented as facts in effort to exonerate this boy.

I also find it offensive when I am personally attacked for not conforming to the majority and stating my own opinions. This occurs most often when a point is made and can't be refuted. It's incredibly pathetic considering we are all supposed to be adults.

Regardless of your opinion OR mine, the fact remains the judge found probable cause to charge and detain this boy.

I agree, HN.

I certainly understand perfectly the position of other posters who thinks this boy is innocent. I never belittle them or taunt them for their own opinions and I certainly don't personally attack them. I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as mine and never will. That is trying to control someone else and I don't want control over anyone or want to suppress any entitled opinions about the CASE.

Yet the emotional, explosive, personal attacks are constantly made against the ones who do not have a lock step opinion. I find that not only offensive but quite childish as well and it is sad when we can't civilly debate the case like adults.

imoo

Here's the latest, in case anyone missed it.



http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs...%20HEARING.pdf

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by iamithink

Your last paragraph.
Did you read the post re the Medell Banks case? Your last paragraph is not always the case.

I have read that case but what happened in another case has no bearing on the one at hand.

Each case must be on an individual basis and for now this is how this case stands.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by iamithink

I'm hoping they are testing the blood drops on the driveway.

I think they have even though I am pretty sure the crime scene showed it was the blood trail left by Romans when he was hit.

I also hope they test the blood found on the paper in the boy's trashcan.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

Originally Posted by iamithink

If that's the case, there shouldn't be a presumption of guilt either.

[JusticeDawg©]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Here's the latest, in case anyone missed it.



http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs...%20HEARING.pdf

I knew that. Pretty good huh?

Originally Posted by JusticeDawg©

I knew that. Pretty good huh?

I'm not sure, because as usual I don't know what it means. Lawyering...ugh.

[JusticeDawg©]

Originally Posted by iamithink

I'm hoping they are testing the blood drops on the driveway.

Of course they did. They can't "guess" who it belonged to. Although it is pretty evident.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Hawk

I understand. Sorry to be so dense though about what possible DNA they could have proving this boy did the deeds. A hair from his head on his dad's shirt? He hugged his dad that morning? Bloody footprints are meaningless too. After all, he did find the victims. And he lives in the house. If the state is doing all this it's a waste of taxpayers dollars. Anything they have in this regard can be easily explained away by his defence team. Or a discussion board poster.
I think they're smokin' the tealeaves.

I am not sure I agree with that. Location is everything when it comes to DNA. Where it was found can and often is very relevant even if the victim and the defendant lived in the same home.


imo

Originally Posted by HotNostril

Back to the case..........

I believe the prosecution feels they have enough evidence to convict this boy without the confession and statements the boy volunteered to a social worker.

If the confession & social worker's statement was all they had, the boys attorney would have requested that the case be dismissed and not allow it to be refiled at a later time. There is no reason to believe the judge wouldn't have granted that request if there was truly nothing else.

Without the 'confession' what do they have exactly? Two bodies, 10 spent casings, a youth model rifle, and a he-said she-said ear witness. Does it really seem that strong of a case?

[Crispy]

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

I think they have even though I am pretty sure the crime scene showed it was the blood trail left by Romans when he was hit.

I also hope they test the blood found on the paper in the boy's trashcan.

imoo

I was wondering about that paper. Can you tell me offhand if that was collected before or after the scene was turned back over to Tiffany?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by HotNostril

Back to the case..........

I believe the prosecution feels they have enough evidence to convict this boy without the confession and statements the boy volunteered to a social worker.

If the confession & social worker's statement was all they had, the boys attorney would have requested that the case be dismissed and not allow it to be refiled at a later time. There is no reason to believe the judge wouldn't have granted that request if there was truly nothing else.

Sure looks like it. They are proceeding forward and haven't budged one inch since saying they will not use the confession.

imoo

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

I am not sure I agree with that. Location is everything when it comes to DNA. Where it was found can and often is very relevant even if the victim and the defendant lived in the same home.


imo

Can you elaborate just a little with an example or two of where they might have found DNA that would indicate the boy's quilt?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Crispy

I was wondering about that paper. Can you tell me offhand if that was collected before or after the scene was turned back over to Tiffany?

I am sorry Crispy, I cant remember exactly but I think it was after. They can retrieve the fingerprints off of the paper as well as test the blood.

imoo

Originally Posted by iamithink

I am not surprised by this. However, couldn't the competency issue be brought first during the scheduled hearing?? Then that would make the DA's motion mute, wouldn't it?

Surely that is by far the most important issue. I think the judge will rule on that first. He's been adamant about it from the beginning. He doesn't seem the type to be easily buffaloed.

[JusticeDawg©]

Originally Posted by Hawk

I'm not sure, because as usual I don't know what it means. Lawyering...ugh.

Forcing Judge Roca to rule on Motion to dismiss Count 1 as per appeal.

[Crispy]

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

I am sorry Crispy, I cant remember exactly but I think it was after. They can retrieve the fingerprints off of the paper as well as test the blood.

imoo

I was just wondering if maybe it was close to the stairwell or the landing and spatter got on it and when Tiffany cleaned it up she just put it in the garbage can. Not trying to cover anything up, just cleaning up.

[JusticeDawg©]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Surely that is by far the most important issue. I think the judge will rule on that first. He's been adamant about from the beginning. He doesn't seem the type to be easily buffaloed.

Judges love when one of the parties goes over their head! NOT

The boy will be home very soon.

moo

[Perplexed1]

Originally Posted by JusticeDawg©

Judges love when one of the parties goes over their head! NOT

The boy will be home very soon.

moo

Welcome back today and thanks for the words of encouragement.

[wolfi_2]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Can you elaborate just a little with an example or two of where they might have found DNA that would indicate the boy's quilt?

-exact, DNA, foot and fingerprint’s from the boy can be everywhere in the house, because he lived there, if it was happened at another place, it would be important.

Originally Posted by wolfi_2

-exact, DNA, foot and fingerprint’s from the boy can be everywhere in the house, because he lived there, if it was happened at another place, it would be important.

Thank you. So what's the holdup on the other, minor science evidence? A shortage of microscopes maybe?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Can you elaborate just a little with an example or two of where they might have found DNA that would indicate the boy's quilt?

Ok this is just an example. He made a point to tell the officers he did not touch Tim and only nudged his father with the toe of his shoe (that still makes me feel so sad for Vinnie when I write that) and I am sure they asked him that day what he touched and didn't touch. So if there is a bloody fingerprint or palm print at the scene then it is not consistent with him not touching the bodies. Even with the confession tossed the officers can testify to what he said the day of the murders.

Also they can tell if the hair was picked up by the environment or fell onto the victim when the shooter was close. If the hair landed on the victim's blood then it would be resting on top of the blood and couldn't have been there before then imo. He said that he had to push the door back against Tim's head so he had the door between him and Tim according to his story.

None of it by itself will be conclusive but when put together it will be used along with other forensic and circumstantial evidence.

The DA wouldnt put in a motion asking for it if he had no use to do tests.

[JusticeDawg©]

Originally Posted by Perplexed1

Welcome back today and thanks for the words of encouragement.

That is like screaming to the public, "this judge doesn't know what he is doing"

That is what the State did.

(appellate court only ruled in Part for the state, the state did not win that appeal, but they sure ran with their "part")

Originally Posted by HotNostril

If there's a bloody print found on the gun and that blood belongs to either victim.

If someone else's ( other than Tim & Vince) DNA is found all over the gun it would go to his innocence.

The state is very interested in that type of exculpatory evidence.

Originally Posted by JusticeDawg©

That is like screaming to the public, "this judge doesn't know what he is doing"

That is what the State did.

(appellate court only ruled in Part for the state, the state did not win that appeal, but they sure ran with their "part")

Tee times have been cancelled this weekend for the Roca-Carylon party.