The ~Crime~

[Politigal]

It's no secret that I believe Gricar most likely met with foul play....and IMO, foul play seems to make the most sense, as opposed to suicide or walkway, considering what we know about Gricar.

But, considering all the circumstances that we've learned of thus far, how do *you* think the crime could have occurred?

[Cloudbuster]

If Gricar was to meet someone could he have been asked to attend the governors award ceremony?

www.newPA.com. Governor’s Award for. Local Government Excellence. 2005. April 15 , 2005 .... Centre Region Council of Governments, Centre County
April 15 has been set aside as Local Government Day to
recognize all the dedicated men and women who serve
their community as local government officials.
The Governor’s Award for Local Government Excellence
honors those local governments and officials who have
demonstrated vision, dedication and determination in the
development and implementation of programs and
projects designed to improve the quality of life in their
community.
The Local Government Day Luncheon and Awards
Program is sponsored by the Governor’s Center for Local
Government Services in partnership with the County
Commissioners Association of Pennsylvania, the
Pennsylvania Association of Councils of Governments,
the Pennsylvania League of Cities and Municipalities, the
Pennsylvania Municipal Authorities Association, the
Pennsylvania Planning Association, the Pennsylvania
State Association of Boroughs, the Pennsylvania State
Association of Township Commissioners and the
Pennsylvania State Association of Township Supervisors.
http://www.newpa.com/get-local-gov-s...ad.aspx?id=251
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Local Government Groups Win Awards
-0/4-/2005
Representative Lynn B. Herman (R-Centre) applauded two groups from Centre County on winning 2005 Governor’s Awards for Local Government Excellence.

Centre Region Council of Governments (COG) and the Centre Region Technology Coalition won awards in the category of Intergovernmental Cooperation.

"As a long-time advocate of intergovernmental cooperation, I am delighted that two Centre County organizations earned these awards," said Herman, who chairs the House Local Government Committee.

The awards were for the following achievements:

- In 1990, the COG, which includes the Borough of State College and surrounding townships, established Pennsylvanian’s first joint emergency management program with a volunteer serving as emergency management coordinator (EMC). In 2003, the COG and Penn State University collaborated to establish a first-ever shared full-time EMC for the Centre County Region.
- The Centre Region Technology Coalition includes the COG, College, Ferguson, and Patton Townships and State College Borough. After two years of existence, the coalition reached its goals of reducing costs trough shared technology services.

The awards program is administered by the Governor’s Center for Local Government Services in the Department of Community and Economic Development.

http://www.centrecounty.com/topofthe...ews/news.phtml

[J. J. in Phila]

At this point, the theory that RFG met a lover, and something happened, is probably tied with a "luring."

[Politigal]

If Gricar *was* the victim of a crime...what would the motive be?

If the perpetrator was a companion, jealousy or a breakup could have been possible motives.

If the perpetrator was a co-worker, uncovering some sort of corruption could have been at play.

If it was someone who supported Mendez and/or was against the death penalty...I can't see how that would have played out, with Gricar being off work unexpectedly.

If Gricar was kidnapped from his home, I can't see that either, especially since there was no ransom call or anything like that. And why would a kidnapper allow him to call PF at the courthouse?

If Gricar was kidnapped at Lewisburg - that means the perp would have to have known first that he wasn't working and second that he went to Lewisburg.

If it was just some random kidnapping...why?

So many questions...

[J. J. in Phila]

If we assume that the witnesses in Wilkes-Barre is correct, it could have been RFG to call his daughter/PEF that triggered a hypothetical "jealous rage" on the part of a lover. He saw them on the evening news and told the lover that he wanted to back to them or call them.

[J. J. in Phila]

Conversely, it could be a luring. Someone with a grudge lured RFG into coming to Lewisburg.

[Cloudbuster]

Or it could be RG was set up into going there by using perhaps the governors award ceremony. He might have been asked to meet the person and go to the ward ceremony? Question I have is who went that day that RG knew? Was he asked to go at the prision board meeting? Or was RG being asked to except the award? Page 14 does not have who accepted those 2 awards. The governor that day didn't even give the awards out. There is a whole cookie list missing.

[Politigal]

Wow...I found a statement by Gricar from a 1999 murder case...it gave me goose bumps:

http://tinyurl.com/bl3tow

"Murder is murder. It's an intentional killing, and that's what we have here. You don't excuse murder because you feel sorry for the perpetrator."

[Politigal]

an older video that includes Lara's comments about her dad

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...e=search_video

[Politigal]

Was rereading old articles (again) and found this one a little puzzling...

Why do you think that right off the bat (4/22/05,) that Patty said this:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05112/492590-85.stm

"We, the family, are continuing to treat this as a missing-persons case," she said.

She then asked that the news media do the same.

-- Specifically not a crime, but just a missing person case....

Why?

Originally Posted by Politigal

Was rereading old articles (again) and found this one a little puzzling...

Why do you think that right off the bat (4/22/05,) that Patty said this:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05112/492590-85.stm

"We, the family, are continuing to treat this as a missing-persons case," she said.

She then asked that the news media do the same.

-- Specifically not a crime, but just a missing person case....

Why?

Being completely objective and fair here, I'd say that the context on 4/22 was media focused on suicide (river searches, articles including Roy's death). Maybe what she meant was, "Please stop speculating that he committed suicide" rather than "Don't look at this as a crime"?

Just playing the objective eye here.

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by UndertheRadar

Being completely objective and fair here, I'd say that the context on 4/22 was media focused on suicide (river searches, articles including Roy's death). Maybe what she meant was, "Please stop speculating that he committed suicide" rather than "Don't look at this as a crime"?

Just playing the objective eye here.

that makes sense

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, your claim doesn't match LG initial statements at the press conference, where LG asked her father to call (so did REF). That is not a presumption that a crime took place.

[Politigal]

In the beginning, the presumption by PF (and possibly Lara) was that he walked away. And I'm still curious exactly *why* that was considered - at that time.

Suicide was looked at by law enforcement & the media. But no body was found.

[gstickley]

Originally Posted by Politigal

In the beginning, the presumption by PF (and possibly Lara) was that he walked away. And I'm still curious exactly *why* that was considered - at that time.
(snip)

I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

Where have I made a claim that anyone said a crime took place early on?



I said media focus was on suicide, and PF may have been trying to keep the focus on a walkaway by asking that people consider the disappearance a missing persons' case, that she wanted them to stop speculating about suicide. . .

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I didn't say you did, but the title of the thread is, " The ~Crime~."

It does not sound like there was a presumption that RFG was dead.

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by gstickley

I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

yep, *I* would

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by gstickley

I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

Well, GS, would you feel the same way if your "loved one's" car was found intact, in a very public place (and a safe one, at that), and people said they saw him with another woman?

That was the real situation on 4/18/05.

[Politigal]

IIRC, there was no report of Gricar being seen with a woman in Lewisburg as of Monday 4/18/05.

The SoS owner told GVS he was probably contacted by LE on Sunday morning. He would have been the one to introduce LE to his employees and to the sublet-owner of the restaurant (who was apparently the one who offered the MW information). So I suspect the MW possibility...together with a potential candidate from RG's past, a known smoker...was one working theory on Sunday morning. This was also confirmed, more or less, by KA.

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

The SoS owner told GVS he was probably contacted by LE on Sunday morning. He would have been the one to introduce LE to his employees and to the sublet-owner of the restaurant (who was apparently the one who offered the MW information). So I suspect the MW possibility...together with a potential candidate from RG's past, a known smoker...was one working theory on Sunday morning. This was also confirmed, more or less, by KA.

But I don't recall it being published in the news on that Monday, that Gricar had been seen with a woman...I think that came out a little later. I think the Sunday thing was more about cigarette ash...and contacting people Gricar knew who smoked.

And didn't the mystery woman report come out about a year later?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Politigal

But I don't recall it being published in the news on that Monday, that Gricar had been seen with a woman...I think that came out a little later. I think the Sunday thing was more about cigarette ash...and contacting people Gricar knew who smoked.

And didn't the mystery woman report come out about a year later?

P'gal, there is a big difference between what LE knew at a specific time and what was reported.

[Politigal]

Tony Gricar didn't even find out til May 2006...and commented what a odd little bombshell that piece of news was....

Since Tony didn't know, it's possible PF didn't hear it sooner either. After all, it was also reported that they (LE) were trying to spare PF/family by not publishing it sooner.

Originally Posted by Politigal

Tony Gricar didn't even find out til May 2006...and commented what a odd little bombshell that piece of news was....

Since Tony didn't know, it's possible PF didn't hear it sooner either. After all, it was also reported that they (LE) were trying to spare PF/family by not publishing it sooner.

And wasn't PF reported as "near tears" when this was reported in May '06?

[Politigal]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t2226.htm

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

So, I re-concur with GStickley's post earlier in the thread....

Originally Posted by gstickley View Post
I'm curious too. If you were in such a panic because your 'loved one' didn't come home that you called LE, why would you think he walked away? If you were scared enough to call LE, wouldn't you have thought that something bad had happened to the loved one? Seems strange to call LE if you think he/she just walked away, doesn't it? If you thought he/she just walked away, wouldn't you be calling everyone who knew the loved one to see if they had any little inkling of what may have happened, if they'd heard from him/her, if they had any idea where he/she might be? It wouldn't matter if it were in the middle of the night, wake up everyone to check . . .

yep, *I* would

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by UndertheRadar

And wasn't PF reported as "near tears" when this was reported in May '06?

yep

The news of the sighting, and the attention it has grabbed, had Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, near tears Wednesday. She said she knows the man she planned to spend the rest of her life with did not run off with another woman.

[gstickley]

Originally Posted by Politigal

IIRC, there was no report of Gricar being seen with a woman in Lewisburg as of Monday 4/18/05.

Reward offered in Gricar case
04/21/05

By Erin James
and Josh Kowalkowski
Collegian Staff Writers

(snip)

Yesterday, two employees of the antiques shop where Gricar's car was found Saturday said they are nearly
certain they saw him in the store that day.

Craig Bennett, owner of Street of Shops, Lewisburg, said he saw Gricar at noon Saturday waiting outside of the Remember When Café, which is currently being constructed inside the market.

"I'm relatively certain, 95 percent sure, he was here at noontime on Saturday," Bennett said.

Though it is "difficult to say with absolute certainty," Bennett said Gricar appeared to be waiting for someone outside the café for about five to 10 minutes.

Gricar was last heard from when he called his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was traveling on Route 192 at about 11:30 a.m. Friday. His Mini Cooper was found in the Street of Shops dirt parking lot at 6:30 p.m. Saturday.

Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, said he also told police that he believes he saw Gricar at the Street of Shops around closing time on either Friday or Saturday evening, after police showed him a photograph of the district attorney.

"I have recognized him in the building," Alvey said. "He was in an OK mood. I didn't talk to him."

Bennett said family members have said that Gricar often visited the Street of Shops and Lewisburg Roller Mills Marketplace, both owned by Bennett and located within five blocks of each other.

Bennett said he did not talk to Gricar Saturday, nor could he recall speaking with Gricar in the past, since the market receives about 20,000 customers each month.

"It could be very difficult to try to nail that down," he said.

Bellefonte police have been looking into leads for the past two days, Holliday said.

However, an officer at the Bellefonte Police Department, who would not give his name, said Bellefonte police were not directly involved in the search for Gricar yesterday but were investigating other aspects of the case.

"Right now, none of our personnel are personally out there," he said. "You have different responsibilities delegated to different people."

Police said they have determined that Gricar did not make any purchases at the Street of Shops either Friday or Saturday by using a credit card or check. However, a cash transaction would not have been recorded, Bennett said.

Market surveillance tapes showed no sign of Gricar, Bennett said.

He added that said he could not recall any strange occurrences on Friday or Saturday that could be connected to Gricar's disappearance.

"There wasn't anything suspicious or unusual about him or the vehicle," Holliday added.

(snip)


No mention of MW on 04/21/05 either.

[gstickley]

Local district attorney missing
04/18/05
By Josh Kowalkowski
Collegian Staff Writer

"The car was parked out here [Saturday]," said Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, located in the Street of Shops. "Nobody that I'm aware of saw him."

(snip)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Politigal

Tony Gricar didn't even find out til May 2006...and commented what a odd little bombshell that piece of news was....

Since Tony didn't know, it's possible PF didn't hear it sooner either. After all, it was also reported that they (LE) were trying to spare PF/family by not publishing it sooner.

Actually, it was mentioned briefly in EN's Q & A in the Fall of 2005. It was mentioned more prominently in Renner's piece:

Zaccagni anticipates his visitor’s response. This makes no sense.
“It makes a lot of sense,” he replies with a smile, before returning to the chronology.
“Friday night, people remember the car sitting in the parking lot. It’s a very distinct car. Two people in the antique mall are positive they saw him in there. One man is positive he saw Gricar talking to a female on several occasions. I asked him, Were they together? He said, ‘Well, in my mind they were together, but they weren’t holding hands; they weren’t lovey-dovey or anything.’

http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/...he-rivers-edge

Also, in the cluster period, there were two people who saw RFG in the SoS.

[Politigal]

The point was....

that on Monday 4/18/05, Patty didn't know there was a report of Gricar being with another woman at the Street of Shops.

So why was it immediately assumed he had just left her and might come back?

As far as I know, the LMW was first publicly introduced by EN in the CDT's Q&A on 10/13/05. There was some discussion here after that, but not much. And it did not come up again really until the CDT's published article on 5/10/06.

BTW, on Rita Cosby Live & Direct (the night of 5/10/06), TG said it was not really a new lead...just something LE had gone back to...and that, although RG seeing another woman had been "in the realm of the possibilities in the beginning", they had "kind of discounted it". TG went on to point out the obvious...no way to verify it was even RG who was seen in the SoS.

Originally Posted by Politigal

The point was....

that on Monday 4/18/05, Patty didn't know there was a report of Gricar being with another woman at the Street of Shops.

So why was it immediately assumed he had just left her and might come back?

I think there is enough in the links I provided to take an educated guess, and say that the possibility of another woman was being bandied about on Sunday. And whether or not LE had made the specific sighting details known at that time, it would certainly seem to be a possibility LE would want to discuss with PF and the family members.

[gstickley]

Renner's article is dated 11/16/05.

[gstickley]

Ref. above posts:

04/18/05, Alvey says car parked Sat.; "Nobody I'm aware of saw him."
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Alvey says be believes he saw Gricar, closing time, Fri. or Sat., after seeing photo.
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Bennett 75% sure he saw Gricar waiting outside "Remember When Cafe"; there 5-10 min., as though waiting on someone; did not talk to him.
NO MW MENTIONED.

Fall 2005, EN's article mentions MW.

11/16/05, Renner mentions MW.

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

I think there is enough in the links I provided to take an educated guess, and say that the possibility of another woman was being bandied about on Sunday. And whether or not LE had made the specific sighting details known at that time, it would certainly seem to be a possibility LE would want to discuss with PF and the family members.

then why did Zaccagni say this about it not being made public?

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

and why did Tony (family) say it was an odd little bombshell?

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by gstickley

Ref. above posts:

04/18/05, Alvey says car parked Sat.; "Nobody I'm aware of saw him."
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Alvey says be believes he saw Gricar, closing time, Fri. or Sat., after seeing photo.
NO MW MENTIONED.

04/21/05, Bennett 75% sure he saw Gricar waiting outside "Remember When Cafe"; there 5-10 min., as though waiting on someone; did not talk to him.
NO MW MENTIONED.

Fall 2005, EN's article mentions MW.

11/16/05, Renner mentions MW.

Interesting too that both Alvey and Bennett were shown photos of Gricar first.

Oh yeahhhh....I think I saw that guy over yonder.

[gstickley]

Originally Posted by Politigal

Interesting too that both Alvey and Bennett were shown photos of Gricar first.

Oh yeahhhh....I think I saw that guy over yonder.

I like the fact Alvey, on 04/18/05, said, "Nobody I'm aware of saw him."
Yet, on 04/21/05, Alvey "believes he saw him".

(I don't remember exactly what S1 posted a day or so ago about these particular "sightings", but I agree with it.)

[Politigal]

Originally Posted by logicworks

Curious here--------IIRC, there were at least three women mentioned who were said to have been contacted shortly after he disappeared. I am not certain of what their relationships to RG was described as, other than I do recall one was said to be a nurse he had dated at one time, another a friend possibly also someone he dated before, and another the ex-wife, said to be not in the area. If they didn't think he was with a woman, why were they contacting women from out of town?
JMO

I think Zaccagni did believe he was with a woman, but why would they assume Gricar would do that to Patty?

[gstickley]

Originally Posted by Politigal

I think Zaccagni did believe he was with a woman, but why would they assume Gricar would do that to Patty?

Dunno, Pgal., but it always seemed to me that DZ took delight in assuming that & making statements about it.