1-17 - 1/19 early a.m.

bkwits · #1 01-17-2009, 07:27 PM

New Thread.

COME ON DOWN
:

PensiveOne · #2 01-17-2009, 07:39 PM

Here's my last post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamithink http://boards.insessiontrials.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
is there or has there been a test conducted to determine if someone could hear a child's voice in that manner? If someone can hear someone else in the back ground the test should also demonstrate how far the person had to be before they were not audibale. Sometimes if someone is talking to me on my cell and they are riding with someone or in the same room with someone, the other person can say something and I can barely hear them, can't make out what they say either. and that's when they are with the person I'm talking to. needs to be a test done.

You know the other day I was talking to my son while he was on his cell phone. He had to go out to his car to get something and smoke a cigarette. I heard kids in the background and I said, "who's that?" It was my grandaughter, whom I know very well, but I couldn't tell for sure. Also, he turned his radio on immediately. It made me think of this case. I wonder if Tim had his radio on and if he did how could she hear the child at all?
__________________
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
Albert Einstein

GentleBreeze · #3 01-17-2009, 07:43 PM

GentleBreeze
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nestled In Southern Hospitality
Posts: 10,031

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwits
Yes, except for the shot through the screen door which was from behind him.

He didn't FREEZE in place. He ran or moved. The natural instinct is to run or seek cover. If I know that most people who are hunters and used to gun would drop to the ground or run from the gunfire. In the school shootings even the kids run or drop to the floor.

I think it is naive to believe that Tim would freeze. Are you sure you've been raised around guns? {Quote}

I think he was totally confused. I don't think he saw the shooter or where he was, while he was shooting at him. We are only talking about 24 feet to decide. 24 feet and then in seconds he is hit again.

Maybe he was trying to run across the yard to the left side of the house in the front so he would be up against the wall of the house and not in the killer's view.

Please don't try to be coy, bkwts. Yes. I was raised around guns but I have never been in a position where I was being fired upon or anyone else I know, for that matter. If I had though and only had 24 feet to decide what to do, I would most likely be as dead as Romans is. If a person hits the ground then they are even more vulnerable. Then the victim is down and all the person has to do, that has the weapon, is walk closer and shoot.

His body may not have froze but imo his mind was very delayed due to the very stressful attack of being shot at multiple times.

But God forbid, if he was like others who have gone through a hail of bullets, trying to help someone, they thought was in dire need. If, it was this boy that truly coaxed him to his death under the pretense he needed help then that is just too heartbreaking to even think about.

ETA:
The shot that went into the metal screen door was the one that grazed his head when he was already laying on the porch dying imo.

imoo

Jacobtk · #4 01-17-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

You know the other day I was talking to my son while he was on his cell phone. He had to go out to his car to get something and smoke a cigarette. I heard kids in the background and I said, "who's that?" It was my grandaughter, whom I know very well, but I couldn't tell for sure. Also, he turned his radio on immediately. It made me think of this case. I wonder if Tim had his radio on and if he did how could she hear the child at all?

What I find more interesting is that Tanya apparently only met the boy once. It seems unlikely that she would recognize his voice after just one meeting. However, assuming the boy was not the shooter, but Tanya did hear someone call Tim's name, it is possible someone faked being the boy. Not very likely, but certainly possible that someone could raise the pitch of their voice to sound like a child and if familiar with the boy perhaps even match it. Admittedly, that seems like a stretch.

PensiveOne · #5 01-17-2009, 07:54 PM

I want to talk about the crack head theory! Where is Hawk? I think one was in the car and one was in the house. TR and VR got home and VR got attacked as he went up the stairs. TR heard the "commotion" and the other guy started chasing him towards the house, but only wounds him in the arm. When TR tried to open the door the one that was in the house shoots him. Or the one that was in the car surprises him via the passenger door and he makes a run for it towards the house and then the second one shoots him in the arm, but he doesn't know where he is. He makes it to the door but is gunned down there. Then they finish him off with the head shots. I think he was trying to open the door and that is why one of the shots ends up in the door. The shooter was tracking his head as he fell and the door got in his way.

So Hawk, how about two crack heads, who were either surprised by VR and TR or were paid some cheap amount to take out TR with a promise of insurance money?

PensiveOne · #6 01-17-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacobtk

What I find more interesting is that Tanya apparently only met the boy once. It seems unlikely that she would recognize his voice after just one meeting. However, assuming the boy was not the shooter, but Tanya did hear someone call Tim's name, it is possible someone faked being the boy. Not very likely, but certainly possible that someone could raise the pitch of their voice to sound like a child and if familiar with the boy perhaps even match it. Admittedly, that seems like a stretch.

Tanya is my number one suspect. She had the strongest motive. I think she had all night to try to pin it on the boy. She knew he was there, because the guys (she hired) were in the white car and they told her about the boy seeing them. At least that my favorite theory now

GentleBreeze · #7 01-17-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

I think the shot that grazed his head was the first shot to him. If he was already on the ground and the shot was the one that went through the security door, the person who shot him would have been behind him, or to his side. This shot was not one that was described as being close range.

I respect your opinion but I do not agree. I think the first shot to Romans was most likely the forearm shot from 24 feet away followed by the chest shots. I think the head shots were done when he was already down on the porch with his head up against the screen door. It is very consistent with the bullet hole in the metal door frame down at the bottom, that this is the one that grazed his head. The shooter more than likely misjudged because Tim had his knit cap on.

I think the shooter stepped out on the left side of the home behind the bushes that were right at the porch when the two head shots were fired and possibly when he fired the chest shots. I think he was standing inside the home when he shot into his forearm.The final head shot was when the shooter walked up very close to him, less than 2 feet imo and fired.

IMO tho

PensiveOne · #8 01-17-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

maybe someone met the two at the house and was the killer. that's why Tanya heard someone. Perhaps someone that Tim didn't want Tanya to know who they were because she wouldn't approve. That person killed them for revenge of something and left. They may have had someone else with them too. That's why the boy said he saw the white car drive away really fast and he saw someone going into the house. Could that person have been in the camper/mobile home in the back? the person ran out the back and hid??

It's as plausible as any other theory right now

PensiveOne · #9 01-17-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

her mother owns a white car. officer Jones took photos of it when they went to her house in San Carlos.

I think it was TR's Mom, does her mother have a white car, too? I wonder if it had hubcaps on the wheels

Jacobtk · #10 01-17-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

her mother owns a white car. officer Jones took photos of it when they went to her house in San Carlos.

It would have been helpful if they had shown the picture to the boy before they arrested him so he could rule it out.

PensiveOne · #11 01-17-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacobtk

It would have been helpful if they had shown the picture to the boy before they arrested him so he could rule it out.

Aw, come on...why would they do that? They were never going to look for the white car. They didn't want to ask logical, investigative type questions. That would mess everything up! They already had their man

PensiveOne · #12 01-17-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

that's right. sorry,it was Tim's mom's car. I'm not saying she drove it to SJ's and killed the men. they described her as elderly.

Well no, but somebody could have borrowed it. I sure would like to see those cell phone calls.

Jacobtk · #13 01-17-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

Aw, come on...why would they do that? They were never going to look for the white car. They didn't want to ask logical, investigative type questions. That would mess everything up! They already had their man

Honestly, looking at how this was handled, I am willing to bet Adam West dressed in his Batman suit could have done a better job of actually investigating this crime.

PensiveOne · #14 01-17-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacobtk

Honestly, looking at how this was handled, I am willing to bet Adam West dressed in his Batman suit could have done a better job of actually investigating this crime.

bkwits · #15 01-17-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacobtk

Honestly, looking at how this was handled, I am willing to bet Adam West dressed in his Batman suit could have done a better job of actually investigating this crime.

Oh absolutelly, or Spiderman, OR Jessica Fletcher.

GentleBreeze · #16 01-17-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

then where is the bullet they didn't find???

I am not sure. I would think since the screen door was metal it fragmented the tiny bullet and pieces went here and there.

imoo

PensiveOne · #17 01-17-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donuts

IIRC, the police took notice of the "white" car when they pulled up to her house.

Did Tanya drive? What kind of car?

How close were Tanya and Tiffany? Would one inform the other if her husband was cheating?

Too many questions and not enough of an investigation to answer them.

I read somewhere that Tanya did not like Tiffany. I can't remember where, though. One of those "other" blogs I think

bkwits · #18 01-17-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

I read somewhere that Tanya did not like Tiffany. I can't remember where, though. One of those "other" blogs I think

I think that I read something like that too.

PensiveOne · #19 01-17-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

but wouldn't the police have taken the pieces if there were any? Tim's head is at the door. wouldn't the pieces be either around his head or behind the door?

I don't think they were looking for another bullet until after the autopsy. By that time if it had splintered the splinters could have been kicked anywhere.

GentleBreeze · #20 01-17-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

from Guinn's report who was attending the autopsy and took photos:
The fifth wound noted was a single entry wound from a single gunshot that struck Romans on the
back of the head, on the right side. This round fragmented inside the head. A sixth wound was observed in
Romans' head. This round was discharged at close range resulting in tearing of the skin at the entry wound, . and resulting in what was described as a "keyhole" wound. This round fragmented inside the skull.
Fragments from these rounds were recovered from inside the head.

This is the only shot he specifically states as being close range.

Right, there wasn't but one close range shot to Romans and I think that was the final shot. But close up shots are less than 2 or 2.5 feet. So the shooter could have fired the other shots to the head a little over 2 and a half feet away. While that is not called close range by the ME imo it is still very close up to the victim. It just wasn't close enough to tear the skin.

imoo

GentleBreeze · #21 01-17-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

but wouldn't the police have taken the pieces if there were any? Tim's head is at the door. wouldn't the pieces be either around his head or behind the door?

If they could find them but the fragments once it splattered after hitting and passing through the door could have been tiny minute pieces.

A .22 bullet is a small bullet to start off with even when it is in tacted.

imo

GentleBreeze · #22 01-17-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

look at the photo with Tim on the ground. His feet appear to be at the end of the porch and his head at the door. someone may have been behind the ivy on the column thing (can't remember what you call those things) and shot him in the head.

That is what I think. The shooter stepped out and hid behind the ivy bushes where Tim couldn't exactly detect where the gunfire was coming from.

It just seems to me he tried to come up to the house so he could press himself up against the wall of the home thinking the gunfire was coming from the front door. Wasn't his truck found more directly in front but his body is left of the open door?

imoo

GentleBreeze · #23 01-17-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamithink

wasn't his head closer than 2 or 2.5 feet to the door?

Yes, it was right up against the door that opened to the left and would be right at his head.

But he still was shot less than 2.5 feet away. That only means wherever the shooter stood the barrel of the gun was less than 2.5 feet away from his head when they fired.

I think they were standing on the porch behind the ivy bushes and then stepped closer and fired the final close up shot.

imo

PensiveOne · #24 01-17-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

That is what I think. The shooter stepped out and hid behind the ivy bushes where Tim couldn't exactly detect where the gunfire was coming from.

It just seems to me he tried to come up to the house so he could press himself up against the wall of the home thinking the gunfire was coming from the front door. Wasn't his truck found more directly in front but his body is left of the open door?

imoo

I think his body was kind of cockeyed, with his feet pointed towards the driveway and his head was on the doormat. When the police arrived the door was open 6-8 inches and his head was in between the screen door and the threshold. At some point Guinn had actually move the body after he took pictures and videos, before the mortician showed up. He must have moved it over so they could get into the house more easily.

GentleBreeze · #25 01-17-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

I don't think they were looking for another bullet until after the autopsy. By that time if it had splintered the splinters could have been kicked anywhere.

I have wondered if the tiny fragments may have fallen down into the metal door frame.

imoo

PensiveOne · #26 01-17-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

I have wondered if the tiny fragments may have fallen down into the metal door frame.

imoo

I wondered that, too. They thought the crease on the back of his head was from that bullet, but it may have only been from part of it. Some police would have taken the door as evidence, but they didn't.

PensiveOne · #27 01-17-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

I have wondered if the tiny fragments may have fallen down into the metal door frame.

imoo

Oh, you mean the frame. Yeah, that is possible, too.

GentleBreeze · #28 01-17-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

I think his body was kind of cockeyed, with his feet pointed towards the driveway and his head was on the doormat. When the police arrived the door was open 6-8 inches and his head was in between the screen door and the threshold. At some point Guinn had actually move the body after he took pictures and videos, before the mortician showed up. He must have moved it over so they could get into the house more easily.

Do you have a link that says he was found between the threshold and the metal door instead of on the outside of the door? I don't remember that. Thanks in advance if you have that info handy, if not I will try to track it down myself.

I believe this was before they moved the body, PO. You can see he is at an angle with his head close to the door. His head is on the outside of the door frame. . It is consistent to me with the bullet hole in the metal screen door that he was on the outside of the door on the porch not between the screen and the threshold. LE said the bullet hole went from the outside to the inside metal door frame. It lines up with where his head would have been imo.

But maybe I am getting confused. Are you saying he was down right at the threshold and the shooter stepped out came around the door and shot through the metal door from the outside ...in.... at his head and missed only grazing his head?

imoo

IMO

GentleBreeze · #29 01-17-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

Oh, you mean the frame. Yeah, that is possible, too.

Yes,thats what I mean......... the metal door frame track that seems to be a catch all for everything. I am constantly cleaning my metal door frames at the bottom because so much seems to get trapped in them and some of it is almost impossible to get out.

imoo

PensiveOne · #30 01-17-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

Do you have a link that says he was found between the threshold and the metal door instead of on the outside of the door? I don't remember that. Thanks in advance if you have that info handy, if not I will try to track it down myself.

I believe this was before they moved the body, PO. You can see he is at an angle with his head close to the door. His head is on the outside of the door frame. . It is consistent to me with the bullet hole in the metal screen door that he was on the outside of the door on the porch not between the screen and the threshold. LE said the bullet hole went from the outside to the inside metal door frame. It lines up with where his head would have been imo.

But maybe I am getting confused. Are you saying he was down right at the threshold and the shooter stepped out came around the door and shot through the metal door from the outside ...in.... at his head and missed only grazing his head?

imoo

IMO

I think it is in Guinn's report. I think the shooter that shot through the door was on Tim's left and was tracking his head as he was falling while he had the door open trying to get into the house. The door moved as Tim fell and the shooter accidently shot through the door. Or the shooter could have been holding the door open with his foot after Tim fell and the door slipped and he shot the door then.

PensiveOne · #31 01-17-2009, 09:20 PM

Here is the link to Guinn's report:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Guinn.pdf

Good_Gawd · #32 01-17-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkwits

Oh absolutelly, or Spiderman, OR Jessica Fletcher.

Good_Gawd · #33 01-17-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

I think it is in Guinn's report. I think the shooter that shot through the door was on Tim's left and was tracking his head as he was falling while he had the door open trying to get into the house. The door moved as Tim fell and the shooter accidently shot through the door. Or the shooter could have been holding the door open with his foot after Tim fell and the door slipped and he shot the door then.

He went a long way with 4 or 5 shots in him.

PensiveOne · #34 01-17-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minnesotamom

this is totally not what your talking about , but i feel like a dope asking .i am wondering if they are throwing out the confession then why is he still there? are they keeping him there under protective custody? i don't have degrees in law, no hunting experience like a lot of you out there. i am just a mother of an 9 year old boy and just don't understand why they are still holding this little boy.it blows my mind when i read about st.johns. "the town of friendly neighbors" the town that takes pride in a close-knit, family first attitude that cares deeply about its residents and guests. is that some kind of joke? it also says come visit for a day and you'll decide st.johns is an excellent choice for a better life. they can't be serious, espically how they are and have been treating this little boy. arizona looks like a beautiful state, but i doubt if i would ever step in to the town of st. johns if i ever would it would be only to support this little boy and his family.

The judge hasn't really ruled on whether the confession is out or not. But both lawyers have motions about it, the prosecutor, who is willing to not use it, and the defense lawyer who wants it thrown out. The judge will make the final decision. They have other evidence, although I think it is circumstantial, at least what we know now. They are holding the boy because they think he did the shooting, not for protective custody. It is a very sad case. He is still there because the judge hasn't ruled on anything, yet. There is also a special action that was put in by the prosecutor that they are waiting on. Once, they get the ruling on the special action from the appeals court, then things will start moving along again. Unless they find some evidence that exonerates the boy or incriminates somebody else he will most likely stay where he is. The judge could let him out on furlough though, but he won't be free until some decisions are made.

PensiveOne · #35 01-17-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Good_Gawd

He went a long way with 4 or 5 shots in him.

What do you mean?

GentleBreeze · #36 01-17-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

Here is the link to Guinn's report:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Guinn.pdf

Thank you so much. I will go read it now.

imoo

PensiveOne · #37 01-17-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

Thank you so much. I will go read it now.

imoo

I think we are saying the same thing. Maybe, I am not describing it well

GentleBreeze · #38 01-17-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

Here is the link to Guinn's report:

http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Guinn.pdf

Ok Guinn stated that Romans head was in front of the screen door and there was blood pooling around his head. This is when Guinn arrived and how he first saw the body.

That is my interpretation of it anyway.

imoo

PensiveOne · #39 01-17-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minnesotamom

thanks. i know it is a very sad. i've contacted who i thought could help and wrote letters, but i feel so helpless now that all i can do is pray for him. whether he did it or not i feel he doesn't need to be locked up like he is.

There are lots of good people trying to help the little boy. I am praying for him, too.

PensiveOne · #40 01-17-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentleBreeze

Ok Guinn stated that Romans head was in front of the screen door and there was blood pooling around his head. This is when Guinn arrived and how he first saw the body.

That is my interpretation of it anyway.

imoo

From Guinn's report:
The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head.

That to me means the screen door was open about 6-8 inches and Tim's head was between the screen door and the threshold. Plus, the boy said when he went into the house the door had hit Tim's head. The only way that could happen was because he had opened it and then it shut again on Tim's head.

At least that is how I am reading it.