Dec. 30 thru 31

IAMME · #1 12-30-2008, 05:30 AM

THIS is freaking scary!!!!!

http://www.campaignmoney.com/politic...la4sheriff.asp

http://avila4sheriff.com/

"With all the public scrutiny that has overcome our Sheriff's Department it is time for a change. I will manage an honest department and staff to bring integrity back to our name."

Is she freaking kidding!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

#2 12-30-2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildsVOICE

Was she at the store around 4:20-4:40? I thought there was a report of that. I know the boy had called her at 5:12 p.m. and 5:14 p.m. from the neighbor's cell phone.

That is my key point in this killing.
VR was shot in the head one last time from the TOP of the stairs.
The boy DIDN'T grab his Cell Phone that was plugged in by his bed. He ran to a neighbor. He was NEVER at the TOP OF THE STEPS, and he was in shock. He RAN!

#3 12-30-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChanginWinds

The casings at the scene are driving me crazy. If anyone has already addressed this, I apologize for missing it. If so, please let me know where to find it so I can educate myself.

Has anyone noticed that the box of .17 HRM ammo collected in the search warrant and testified about by Sgt. Rodriguez in the in the initial detention hearing DOES NOT correspond to the .22 LR spent casings found at the scene?

Please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm the first to admit that I'm not a gun expert.

Per the crime scene photos, the box of ammo found at the scene contained .17 HMR Hornady cartridges.
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/180191...ide=13&taf=pho
The .17 HMR casings are "necked in" ("pinched in", or "a smaller diameter") at the top, as well as being significantly longer than the casings (which appear to be .22 LR) found at the scene. IMO, even a novice can see the difference. PLEASE tell me what I’m missing!!

I have photos to show the differnce if anyone is obsessed enough to want ot see them (like me, of course).

If I’m actually not crazy about this, my questions would be:
1) Where did the .22 LR ammo for the Chipmunk/Cricket rifle come from?
2) Why is the .17 HMR Hornady ammo box the only ammo listed in the supplementary search warrant that itemizes the evidence seized from the crime scene?
3) Was Sqt. Rodriguez (and the rest of SJ LE) fudging the evidence by implying that the .17 HMR was used in the crime?

They were not the casings found, no. The .17 are HMR Hornady magnum rimfire are "necked in" The casings at the scene were. 22 rimfire.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg The .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (left) along with its parent cartridge, the .22 Magnum (right). While comparisons between the two excellent cartridges are inevitable, the .17 HMR was designed to fill a performance niche not met by any rimfire cartridge.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_77-17.htm

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

Martek · #4 12-30-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

It's highly unlikely that the cops would have moved them. And if the boy was aware of their importance he would have picked them up and discarded them before going to a neighbors.

Maybe they got nudged or moved inadvertantly or unnoticed by being walked over or kicked, etc. Anything to rule that out?

Martek

#5 12-30-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martek

Maybe they got nudged or moved inadvertantly or unnoticed by being walked over or kicked, etc. Anything to rule that out?

Martek

The coronor said the shooter was shooting from around the right corner. No big deal. IMO

ChanginWinds · #6 12-30-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

They were not the casings found, no. The .17 are HMR Hornady magnum rimfire are "necked in" The casings at the scene were. 22 rimfire.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg The .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (left) along with its parent cartridge, the .22 Magnum (right). While comparisons between the two excellent cartridges are inevitable, the .17 HMR was designed to fill a performance niche not met by any rimfire cartridge.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_77-17.htm

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html

So did I miss where the police found live ammo that matches the casings (.22 LRs)? The only photo I've seen was of the box of .17 HMRs, and I only noticed statements referring to one box of ammo found on a side table downstairs. I'm confused...

The reason I think it's important is because LE should try to find out where the boy got the ammo if there was no sign of matching ammo in the house (right??)

#7 12-30-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChanginWinds

So did I miss where the police found live ammo that matches the casings (.22 LRs)? The only photo I've seen was of the box of .17 HMRs, and I only noticed statements referring to one box of ammo found on a side table downstairs. I'm confused...

The reason I think it's important is because LE should try to find out where the boy got the ammo if there was no sign of matching ammo in the house (right??)

See how different they are?
The casings in the photos are straight. Where did the ammo come from?

ChanginWinds · #8 12-30-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

See how different the are?
The casings in the photos are straight. Where did the ammo come from?

Exactly - this is really bugging me. Here are some pictures I found for comparison.

1) casing at the crime scene - 1.5 cms and NOT necked in
http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/...42&nextimage=0

2) typical .22 LRs - casing length is 1.5 cm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...liber_22lr.jpg

2) On the left, a .17 HMR (like the ones in the Hornady box at the scene. On the right, a .22 LR. It's obvious that the .17 HMR's casing is significantly longer than the .22 LR's. Also, the .17 HMR's casing is "necked in" at the top.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...and_22LR_B.jpg

So was LE purposely deceitful in implying that they found the ammo that was used?

#9 12-30-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChanginWinds

Exactly - this is really bugging me. Here are some pictures I found for comparison.

1) casing at the crime scene - 1.5 cms and NOT necked in
http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/...42&nextimage=0

2) typical .22 LRs - casing length is 1.5 cm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...liber_22lr.jpg

2) On the left, a .17 HMR (like the ones in the Hornady box at the scene. On the right, a .22 LR. It's obvious that the .17 HMR's casing is significantly longer than the .22 LR's. Also, the .17 HMR's casing is "necked in" at the top.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...and_22LR_B.jpg

So was LE purposely deceitful in implying that they found the ammo that was used?

Unless someone put .22 ammo in the Hornady box....

LOL, Rodreakez (sp LOL) said he didnt open the box.

Then how did he know they were the ones????

#10 12-30-2008, 11:59 AM

Even if they dismiss all charges, I still want to know about the ballistics.

ChanginWinds · #11 12-30-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

Unless someone put .22 ammo in the Hornady box....

LOL, Rodreakez (sp LOL) said he didnt open the box.

Then how did he know they were the ones????

That's a great point too. Maybe for plausible deniability (since I believe the .17s can be used in SOME .22s with the right barrel)? Otherwise, any good investigator would have not only opened the box, but also taken a picture of the ammo inside. IMVHO

#12 12-30-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChanginWinds

That's a great point too. Maybe for plausible deniability (since I believe the .17s can be used in SOME .22s with the right barrel)? Otherwise, any good investigator would have not only opened the box, but also taken a picture of the ammo inside. IMVHO

I sure would have opened the box.

ChanginWinds · #13 12-30-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

I sure would have opened the box.

ME TOO

Unless I wanted to close the case ASAP by fitting the evidence to a convenient suspect. Keep my chief happy and the reputation of my small town unsullied by rumors of ganglands killings...

#14 12-30-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChanginWinds

ME TOO

Unless I wanted to close the case ASAP by fitting the evidence to a convenient suspect. Keep my chief happy and the reputation of my small town unsullied by rumors of ganglands killings...

wolfi_2 · #15 12-30-2008, 01:15 PM

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

#16 12-30-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfi_2

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

OMG! That is too funny!
Mayberry USA

#17 12-30-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfi_2

beside this tragic case. through all that I read about this case and all those things that are going wrong, I just remember this one:
- 'Hello, is this the Sheriff's Office?'
- 'Yes. What can I do for you?'
- 'I'm calling to report 'bout my neighbor Virgil Smith....He's hidin' marijuana inside his firewood! Don't quite know how he gets it inside them logs, but he's hidin' it there.'
- 'Thank you very much for the call, sir.'
The next day, the Sheriff's Deputies descend on Virgil's house. They search
the shed where the firewood is kept.
Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They
sneer at Virgil and leave.
Shortly, the phone rings at Virgil's house.
- 'Hey, Virgil! This here's Floyd....
Did the Sheriff come?'
- 'Yeah!'
- 'Did they chop your firewood?'
- 'Yep!'
- 'Happy Birthday, buddy!'

I know it doesn’t fit here but I can't resist

ROFLMAO! Thanks..that was a good one!

wolfi_2 · #18 12-30-2008, 02:42 PM

here is a link to a summary about this case in the other forum just look for "fran"

Motion to Suppress - Illegal Warrant
Motion to Suppress Statements

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=76097&page=22

#19 12-30-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfi_2

here is a link to a summary about this case in the other forum just look for "fran"

Motion to Suppress - Illegal Warrant
Motion to Suppress Statements

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=76097&page=22

Then that board is WAY behind us. We read those days ago. But thanks!

I want something NEW!!!!

#20 12-30-2008, 04:28 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...rged30-ON.html

Crispy · #21 12-30-2008, 04:30 PM

LMAO I was just on my way here to post that article Justice!!

#22 12-30-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispy

LMAO I was just on my way here to post that article Justice!!

Results must be back...and the pros. won't talk. LOL

#23 12-30-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...rged30-ON.html

The defense shrink said it's a no-go.
Prosecutions shrink, we don't know yet.
If it's 2-0 the thing is over?

If it's a tie will they go to another expert?

Will all, or any, of these reports be dealt with on Monday?

How about the motions to suppress? will Judge Roca make a ruling?

#24 12-30-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMME

THIS is freaking scary!!!!!

http://www.campaignmoney.com/politic...la4sheriff.asp

http://avila4sheriff.com/

"With all the public scrutiny that has overcome our Sheriff's Department it is time for a change. I will manage an honest department and staff to bring integrity back to our name."

Is she freaking kidding!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

"Protecting the county after natural disasters"? "Negotiating.... for crimes against children"?

She is a natural disaster!

#25 12-30-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

The defense shrink said it's a no-go.
Prosecutions shrink, we don't know yet.
If it's 2-0 the thing is over?

If it's a tie will they go to another expert?

Will all, or any, of these reports be dealt with on Monday?

How about the motions to suppress? will Judge Roca make a ruling?

I believe there will be 3 evaluations...one by the defense expert, one by the prosecution's expert and one by a court appointed expert.

Of course, that doesn't guarantee no trial...that will depend on the prosecutor and the judge.

moo

#26 12-30-2008, 06:34 PM

AP story:

http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/...qNNTAD95D8TE80

#27 12-30-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kara

I believe there will be 3 evaluations...one by the defense expert, one by the prosecution's expert and one by a court appointed expert.

Of course, that doesn't guarantee no trial...that will depend on the prosecutor and the judge.

moo

If it's 3-0 doesn't that force the judge? I don't know how it works, that's why I asking.

muska · #28 12-30-2008, 06:48 PM

The article says the Appeals court will consider Carlyon's motion on January 13 and that could delay the case. Will they have to wait until after the 13th to decide on the boy's competency?

#29 12-30-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

AP story:

http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/...qNNTAD95D8TE80

Just the 2 evaluations. The other was abuse.

What we have here is a defense leak that this last guy agreed with the defense

#30 12-30-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

If it's 3-0 doesn't that force the judge? I don't know how it works, that's why I asking.

Uhm...I'm basing my opinion on the Deanna Laney case. It was in Texas so it's not exactly the same...but Laney was the Texas mother that killed 2 of her 3 kids with a large rock and almost killed the third. She had no history of mental illness, but all 3 experts determined that she was insane. The case went to trial anyway and she was judged not guilty by reason of insanity.

#31 12-30-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

Just the 2 evaluations. The other was abuse.

What we have here is a defense leak that this last guy agreed with the defense

This legal stuff makes my head spin. Can we talk about guns, bullets, and sidedishs again?

#32 12-30-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muska

The article says the Appeals court will consider Carlyon's motion on January 13 and that could delay the case. Will they have to wait until after the 13th to decide on the boy's competency?

Brewer's motions and another by prosecutors to drop the murder charge stemming from the father's death won't be ruled on if the boy is found incompetent.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...rged30-ON.html

BY ANYONE.

#33 12-30-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

This legal stuff makes my head spin. Can we talk about guns, bullets, and sidedishs again?

I Love leaks!!!!

#34 12-30-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

I Love leaks!!!!

You've been right about those so far!

Now, about those guns,................

#35 12-30-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

You've been right about those so far!

Now, about those guns,................

Guns or casings?

Keen said "he thinks" the gun was fired from around the right corner of the steps.

Does that blow your theory on the casings?

#36 12-30-2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

Guns or casings?

Keen said "he thinks" the gun was fired from around the right corner of the steps.

Does that blow your theory on the casings?

Not at all.

Looks like it may not matter anyway.

#37 12-30-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

Not at all.

Looks like it may not matter anyway.

I know. Wanna talk sidedish?

#38 12-30-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

I know. Wanna talk sidedish?

I'm so old now I couldn't even buy one.

ChanginWinds · #39 12-30-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk

This legal stuff makes my head spin. Can we talk about guns, bullets, and sidedishs again?

Well, I have another gun question - will that work?

Would the Mossberg rifle (whose manual was in a crime scene photo) be able to fire the 17HRM cartridges?

I believe no because it's a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, which according to this link http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm is a .22.

The manual even specifically says on page 4 that it is only designed to operate with .22 long rifle cartridges. Mossberg does make a newer model (817) that does work with .17HMRs.

So am I right that the casings found at the scene would also be consistent with the Mossberg being the weapon? TIA

#40 12-30-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChanginWinds

Well, I have another gun question - will that work?

Would the Mossberg rifle (whose manual was in a crime scene photo) be able to fire the 17HRM cartridges?

I believe no because it's a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, which according to this link http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm is a .22.

The manual even specifically says on page 4 that it is only designed to operate with .22 long rifle cartridges. Mossberg does make a newer model (817) that does work with .17HMRs.

So am I right that the casings found at the scene would also be consistent with the Mossberg being the weapon? TIA

That manual did look new. It could be the newer model.