Father charged in hypothermia death [Sage Jenks Aragon, 11, died ]

[Senni]

A father "allowed" his two children to walk to their mothers home, 10 miles in negative temperatures on Christmas Day. The boy, 12 yrs, survives, his younger sister 11, dies. He is in jail on charges of 2nd degree murder, and 2 counts of child endangerment.

story can be found here...http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ory/151765.txt

[NatalieB]

It was a stupid decision, there is no question about that, but I'm not sure prosecuting the father is the best plan of action here. Unless of course we'd find out he had any history of endangering his children's lives. I'd think the pain of causing your child's death would be more punishment that the judicial system could ever hand down.

[museumgirl]

I think he should be charged and punished... yeah, he has to live with that decision. But what if his decision was made just purely because he didn't care??? It was child endangerment, no doubt about it. Just like leaving a child in the car in either winter or summer..... he was the parent... he was responsible for their safety......

[LisaM22]

why did the father not take them? why did the mother not pick them up, she knew they were coming. doesn't make sense, so tragic

never mind, reading the article, the fathers car got stuck and he allowed the children to walk the rest of the way, cell phone did not have service it sounds like so could not call the mother

[LisaM22]

I think the father was overcharged, maybe he should be charged with something, just not murder imo as I do not think this should be classified as a murder

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ory/151765.txt

"As for Jenks, she cannot understand the father's alleged decisions in the tragedy. She said Aragon hasn't been a bad father. The two are not married.

"When I do see him, I'm not going to say anything," she said. "I don't need to sit and yell. I know he's going through hell right now.""

from the article sounds like he just made a very very bad decision and I do think he will never forgive himself for the rest of his life - that is punishment enough, I think it is obvious he never meant for this to happen imo

[NatalieB]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

I think the father was overcharged, maybe he should be charged with something, just not murder imo as I do not think this should be classified as a murder

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ory/151765.txt

"As for Jenks, she cannot understand the father's alleged decisions in the tragedy. She said Aragon hasn't been a bad father. The two are not married.

"When I do see him, I'm not going to say anything," she said. "I don't need to sit and yell. I know he's going through hell right now.""

from the article sounds like he just made a very very bad decision and I do think he will never forgive himself for the rest of his life - that is punishment enough, I think it is obvious he never meant for this to happen imo

This is why I didn't think he should be prosecuted either. For one, the children's mother says he was a good father (basically). Then, the father tried to take them to their mother's, but got stranded himself. While it was a foolish decision, I'm sure freezing to death never entered his mind. That's definitely stupidity, but I'm not sure it raises this to the level of murder.

This was never a case where dad was too lazy or derelict to take the children to their mother's. He also got police involved immediately when he realized something was wrong.

I think his punishment is greater than anything the courts can give him. I can't imagine having to live with something like that. I hope they reduce the charges because I can't see a jury out for blood on this one. Why waste the taxpayers money with such a trial?

[Senni]

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6461

Okay, he's in pain, but when it was negative 14 outside, and his car was stuck in a snowdrift, he thought the kids would make it? And when he got within cell range which was after he got unstuck and on the highway, drove home 60 miles and never called the mother to tell her, he left them walking? He had cell service within a mile of where he was stuck. She finally called him and he says "like what? they aren't there?" Then drove back 60 miles to look for her. Afterall there were 2 adults in the car, one of them should have had a brain. They both allowed these two children to walk in 2ft of snow 8 miles? Besides the wind and the -14 degree temperature? Nice or not, good father or not, he was responsible for this girls life. Don't worry this is the same county that prosecuted Sarah Johnson, he'll get a slap!

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Senni

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6461

Okay, he's in pain, but when it was negative 14 outside, and his car was stuck in a snowdrift, he thought the kids would make it? And when he got within cell range which was after he got unstuck and on the highway, drove home 60 miles and never called the mother to tell her, he left them walking? He had cell service within a mile of where he was stuck. She finally called him and he says "like what? they aren't there?" Then drove back 60 miles to look for her. Afterall there were 2 adults in the car, one of them should have had a brain. They both allowed these two children to walk in 2ft of snow 8 miles? Besides the wind and the -14 degree temperature? Nice or not, good father or not, he was responsible for this girls life. Don't worry this is the same county that prosecuted Sarah Johnson, he'll get a slap!

where did you see the temp was 14 below or that they had to walk through two feet of snow?

I would also like to know how they were dressed if anyone comes across that

Perhaps he judged wrong and believed he broke down much closer than he actually was?

Geeesh...I can't believe when he got his car back on the road he didn't drive the last 10 miles to check on them or call

very very sad...and stupid

[Senni]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

where did you see the temp was 14 below or that they had to walk through two feet of snow?

I would also like to know how they were dressed if anyone comes across that

I know because I live 13 miles from where this happened. We were monitoring the weather christmas day because of our own kids wanting to ride their snowmachine. It was way too cold even dressed properly to be out that day. We also sheltered our animals that day because of the cold. There was 2 ft approx of snow that morning, if the road was plowed that morning, it might not have been so deep. But our road wasn't plowed til the next morning (Fri) and we live relatively close in town.
I also know he had cell service after he got his car out and back onto the highway, or at least within a 5 min drive. He never called his wife to tell her that they were walking. According to the article she was worried that they hadn't showed up and might be stuck on the road somewhere and called him.

[LisaM22]

this is what the weather underground show for weather that day

http://www.wunderground.com/weathers...y=25&year=2008

looks like in the morning and afternoon was above 30, but did fall latter in the evening

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Senni

I know because I live 13 miles from where this happened. We were monitoring the weather christmas day because of our own kids wanting to ride their snowmachine. It was way too cold even dressed properly to be out that day. We also sheltered our animals that day because of the cold. There was 2 ft approx of snow that morning, if the road was plowed that morning, it might not have been so deep. But our road wasn't plowed til the next morning (Fri) and we live relatively close in town.
I also know he had cell service after he got his car out and back onto the highway, or at least within a 5 min drive. He never called his wife to tell her that they were walking. According to the article she was worried that they hadn't showed up and might be stuck on the road somewhere and called him.

sounds like it got much colder later in the evening and I think that is what you are remembering, what this guy did was stupid, he may not have been thinking clearly, he was stuck, his cell did not work, he made a choice, a very bad one, no doubt about that, but murder? I do not think so

[Senni]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

this is what the weather underground show for weather that day

http://www.wunderground.com/weathers...y=25&year=2008

looks like in the morning and afternoon was above 30, but did fall latter in the evening

I'm not trying to argue with you, but the weather you looked up is for Jerome, which is 60 miles to the south. Look up Hailey, its closer. High were 19, wind chill is much lower my local Weatherbug had -14 windchill (when you are cold and wet this is a major factor) it also says heavy snow. Most major roads in this area were closed. A road running N to S about 10 miles west of this area they were in was closed for 2 days.

So if you don't think its 2nd degree murder ( Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

What would you charge him with? Stupidity? What if it was your daughter? or grandchild? It wasn't intentional, but it should be accountable.

[NatalieB]

Originally Posted by Senni

I'm not trying to argue with you, but the weather you looked up is for Jerome, which is 60 miles to the south. Look up Hailey, its closer. High were 19, wind chill is much lower my local Weatherbug had -14 windchill (when you are cold and wet this is a major factor) it also says heavy snow. Most major roads in this area were closed. A road running N to S about 10 miles west of this area they were in was closed for 2 days.

So if you don't think its 2nd degree murder ( Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

What would you charge him with? Stupidity? What if it was your daughter? or grandchild? It wasn't intentional, but it should be accountable.

I believe it should be child endangerment at most. Yes, this child is dead. Yes, it's due to the father's stupid decision, but murder?

As for your #1, that's an oxymoron to me. How can an intentional killing not be premeditated? You either intend to kill, or you don't. One shouldn't get to eat their cake and have it too. The very definition is ridiculous, IMO.

I'm sure you're more privy to the workings of your area than I am, but when I was young, there were many times we hoofed it when it was dangerous for automobiles to be on the streets.

[Senni]

Originally Posted by NatalieB

I believe it should be child endangerment at most. Yes, this child is dead. Yes, it's due to the father's stupid decision, but murder?

As for your #1, that's an oxymoron to me. How can an intentional killing not be premeditated? You either intend to kill, or you don't. One shouldn't get to eat their cake and have it too. The very definition is ridiculous, IMO.

I'm sure you're more privy to the workings of your area than I am, but when I was young, there were many times we hoofed it when it was dangerous for automobiles to be on the streets.

Here is a better definition, off law texts. Second degree murder refers to murder that has occurred without it being pre-meditated. There was no element of planning in the murder. It also encompasses murder that has occurred because the murderer was exhibiting dangerous conduct but had no intention to kill. E.g. If the offender carries a loaded gun in a crowded market place, but did not have safety clasp in place. The gun inadvertently goes off and the bullet kills an innocent bystander. Most secondary murderers are not given the maximum penalty. Second degree murder is also assigned to crimes of passion. E.g. If the husband catches his wife in bed with another man and he kills either of them or both of them then it would be second degree murder in most countries.


It is being reported, that the sheriffs office was not called for 10 hrs after the dropoff. This father was 55, old enough to know better. The other guy was 55 too. It looks like they tried to search for her on their own, sad, this county has excellent search and rescue.

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Senni

I'm not trying to argue with you, but the weather you looked up is for Jerome, which is 60 miles to the south. Look up Hailey, its closer. High were 19, wind chill is much lower my local Weatherbug had -14 windchill (when you are cold and wet this is a major factor) it also says heavy snow. Most major roads in this area were closed. A road running N to S about 10 miles west of this area they were in was closed for 2 days.

So if you don't think its 2nd degree murder ( Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

What would you charge him with? Stupidity? What if it was your daughter? or grandchild? It wasn't intentional, but it should be accountable.

this was Hailey's weather on dec 25th, looks like it actually warmed up during the afternoon

http://www.wunderground.com/weathers...y=25&year=2008

I do not think this was murder, the mother said he was not a bad father, I think his car got stuck, he thought the house was closer then it was, and let the children walk as he tried to get the car out - I agree, it was dumb, he should of went and drove to the house to make sure they made it ok, but I do not think this should be classified as murder

[Senni]

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ory/151787.txt

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6467

Glad both these parents aren't mine!

[LisaM22]

Originally Posted by Senni

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ory/151787.txt

http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6467

Glad both these parents aren't mine!

hindsight is 20\20

[taylor63]

Originally Posted by Senni

A father "allowed" his two children to walk to their mothers home, 10 miles in negative temperatures on Christmas Day. The boy, 12 yrs, survives, his younger sister 11, dies. He is in jail on charges of 2nd degree murder, and 2 counts of child endangerment.

story can be found here...http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ory/151765.txt

I read about this tragic story on MSNBC,I thought it said the tempatures was 27 degrees there. I don't know all the details of this case so until I do I will reserve judgement. If the father loved this child,the worst punishment of all he will have to live with is his conscience. My heart goes out to everyone involved, most of all the little girl who lost her life.

[JD1974]

Originally Posted by NatalieB

It was a stupid decision, there is no question about that, but I'm not sure prosecuting the father is the best plan of action here. Unless of course we'd find out he had any history of endangering his children's lives. I'd think the pain of causing your child's death would be more punishment that the judicial system could ever hand down.

You know I was thinking about what happened in this case. I truly wonder if the dad thought it would be safer to let them walk because who knows where the car was stuck? What if he had let them stay in the car and they froze to death before he could get help to get it out, would he still be charged? This is almost a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.

[museumgirl]

Okay, reading further into it... I agree that the murder charge is too much. However, I clocked my drive home from work last night and it is less than five miles and that is a long walk for a kid in those conditions. I don't care if they were antsy for Xmas.... they would not have left me. I can tell you that. I'm sure the father is going through Hell, and will for the rest of his life, but so will his son and daughters mother..... how horrible.

Schools do not let kids go out to play for 15 minute recesses when it's below zero weather.... what made him think a 10 mile walk would have been okay????

[JD1974]

Too late to edit my post but I wanted to say that imo this is nothing like the parents who "forget" their kids in a car. I am trying to think of what I would do in this situation, stuck on a road (has to be out in the middle of nowhere for no cell reception) the odds of someone helping you to get out are pretty low especially with the weather the way it is, 2 adults are both needed to get the car out, one to push one to steer or both to push, who knows how much gas was in the vehicle, you use a lot trying to get it out. After a few hours of this if I am honest with myself I would probably think my kids would have a better chance walking, not the whole way of course but to some main road or area where there would be cars that I hope would either take them to their destination or at least call for help.

The comment about the great search and rescue team confuses me though, if they are really good and knew the area the little girl was walking why did it take 4 hrs to find her? She was 1.5 miles from where the father had to turn around, they knew in pretty good detail the area where this little girl should be found....

[JD1974]

Originally Posted by museumgirl

Okay, reading further into it... I agree that the murder charge is too much. However, I clocked my drive home from work last night and it is less than five miles and that is a long walk for a kid in those conditions. I don't care if they were antsy for Xmas.... they would not have left me. I can tell you that. I'm sure the father is going through Hell, and will for the rest of his life, but so will his son and daughters mother..... how horrible.

Schools do not let kids go out to play for 15 minute recesses when it's below zero weather.... what made him think a 10 mile walk would have been okay????

I live in Michigan, the kids have to stay at the bus stop in below zero weather, if the bus is running late what then? Anyway I think he just reacted out of panic, he probably NEVER thought his children would be harmed.

[aubrey04]

Originally Posted by LisaM22

this was Hailey's weather on dec 25th, looks like it actually warmed up during the afternoon

http://www.wunderground.com/weathers...y=25&year=2008

I do not think this was murder, the mother said he was not a bad father, I think his car got stuck, he thought the house was closer then it was, and let the children walk as he tried to get the car out - I agree, it was dumb, he should of went and drove to the house to make sure they made it ok, but I do not think this should be classified as murder

I agree. I think he probably thought the house was much closer than it actually was. There was no cellphone service and he got stuck.. It isn't like he just decided to let them walk to the house b/c he was lazy.. It was an emergency... He definitely shouldn't have let them walk there and he should have followed them after he got the car freed, but murder charges?

He's overcharged, imo. The man sounds devastated right now.

[Jayne]

The man should have left his car and walked with his children..that's my opinion. They were only 11 and 12...I may be overprotective of mine, but they wouldn't walk that distance in good weather without me or another adult.

Murder, though? No...I don't even see manslaughter - he didn't shove them out there and make them walk..or did he? But, child neglect, yes. And, as another poster said...Stupidity? You bet..but that's not a crime - yet.

[JD1974]

Originally Posted by RachelRose

The only thing I think he did wrong, (and it's a big one) was not going after the kids once the car became unstuck.

Here he is, in the middle of nowhere with a stuck car and no way to communicate with rescuers. Having the children set out on foot - assuming it's correct on the weather website that the weather was an acceptable 26 or so with no wind - to go get help seems the thing to do. Better than sitting there, stuck, in the middle of nowhere and all freezing to death together.

Then, once he unstuck the car (about an hour after the kids left) he should have gone in their direction, found them and picked them up. That he KNEW they had 9 miles to walk, and were an hour into the hike - I can't understand why he just went home.

I also have a problem with that. If it is true that he thought the childrens mother was meeting them though then I don't know.

[Jayne]

Originally Posted by RachelRose

The only thing I think he did wrong, (and it's a big one) was not going after the kids once the car became unstuck.

Here he is, in the middle of nowhere with a stuck car and no way to communicate with rescuers. Having the children set out on foot - assuming it's correct on the weather website that the weather was an acceptable 26 or so with no wind - to go get help seems the thing to do. Better than sitting there, stuck, in the middle of nowhere and all freezing to death together.

Then, once he unstuck the car (about an hour after the kids left) he should have gone in their direction, found them and picked them up. That he KNEW they had 9 miles to walk, and were an hour into the hike - I can't understand why he just went home.

I agree..just above I said he should have walked with them...but even if he didn't, yes..once the car was "unstuck" then go drive and pick them up and drive them to their mother. I don't get it either why he would just drive back home...9 miles for those kids..in cold wintry weather would take hours. How he couldn't be concerned for their safety by doing that, I just don't understand. Maybe they walked that distance before? knowing the way? Still...try to find them and make sure they made it..that would seem to be the responsible thing to do.

[koawally]

It's such a sad story. I don't feel the Father should be charged with murder. I don't understand why he didn't go look for them after the car was free but cultural differences I think play somewhat of a role.

I remember my siblings and I walking to church as a child every Sunday and it was 6 miles away. We went every Sunday and we always walked. Winters are harsh here in Canada. We would use a skipping rope to ensure we didn't loose anyone. It was a great adventure as a kid...times have certainly changed. My children were always driven everywhere.

I feel bad for this man. No doubt he will relive this nighmare and his poor desision which caused his daughters death over and over for the rest of his life. It's all just so sad!!

God Bless this child and this family

[NatalieB]

Originally Posted by Senni

Here is a better definition, off law texts. Second degree murder refers to murder that has occurred without it being pre-meditated. There was no element of planning in the murder. It also encompasses murder that has occurred because the murderer was exhibiting dangerous conduct but had no intention to kill. E.g. If the offender carries a loaded gun in a crowded market place, but did not have safety clasp in place. The gun inadvertently goes off and the bullet kills an innocent bystander. Most secondary murderers are not given the maximum penalty. Second degree murder is also assigned to crimes of passion. E.g. If the husband catches his wife in bed with another man and he kills either of them or both of them then it would be second degree murder in most countries.


It is being reported, that the sheriffs office was not called for 10 hrs after the dropoff. This father was 55, old enough to know better. The other guy was 55 too. It looks like they tried to search for her on their own, sad, this county has excellent search and rescue.

Maybe you're right about your definition of 2nd degree murder, but I'd think more would be needed than simply carrying a loaded gun that happened to discharge. Now, carrying a loaded handgun and directly pointing it at someone, then it accidentally firing, IMO, would qualify as 2nd degree murder.

Alan Jackson also used a 2nd example to describe it in the Phil Spector trial. If you're standing over a bridge tossing large rocks down at motorists as they drive by and this causes one to wreck, and ultimately there is a loss of life, that too is defined as 2nd degree.

I'm not convinced sending a child out in this weather constitutes a murder, though. Yes, it's foolish, but the father probably just didn't think there was any danger along these lines. Yes, in hindsight, I'm sure he can see the grand picture now, but you have to go back to the situation at the time. He was stuck, and he knew the kids would be out in the weather anyway (though in the car, yeah the windchill wouldn't be the same), but it's all about state of mind and IMO, this one doesn't rise to murder.

As for your example of the husband catching the wife in bed, that would be charged in more cases than not, as manslaughter.

[NatalieB]

Originally Posted by Jayne

The man should have left his car and walked with his children..that's my opinion. They were only 11 and 12...I may be overprotective of mine, but they wouldn't walk that distance in good weather without me or another adult.

Murder, though? No...I don't even see manslaughter - he didn't shove them out there and make them walk..or did he? But, child neglect, yes. And, as another poster said...Stupidity? You bet..but that's not a crime - yet.

I think it's these boards that do it to us. We see all the bad in the world and are probably more panicky by nature. My kids are now 17 and 18 and could probably count on ONE hand the number of times they've been left home alone. I do think we're the exception to the rule though.

I can remember hoofing it miles to town by MYSELF at that age. Mostly I'd go with my brother, but if he didn't want to go, I certainly didn't stay home.

I agree that this doesn't even rise to the level of manslaughter.

[Jayne]

Originally Posted by NatalieB

Maybe you're right about your definition of 2nd degree murder, but I'd think more would be needed than simply carrying a loaded gun that happened to discharge. Now, carrying a loaded handgun and directly pointing it at someone, then it accidentally firing, IMO, would qualify as 2nd degree murder.

Alan Jackson also used a 2nd example to describe it in the Phil Spector trial. If you're standing over a bridge tossing large rocks down at motorists as they drive by and this causes one to wreck, and ultimately there is a loss of life, that too is defined as 2nd degree.

I'm not convinced sending a child out in this weather constitutes a murder, though. Yes, it's foolish, but the father probably just didn't think there was any danger along these lines. Yes, in hindsight, I'm sure he can see the grand picture now, but you have to go back to the situation at the time. He was stuck, and he knew the kids would be out in the weather anyway (though in the car, yeah the windchill wouldn't be the same), but it's all about state of mind and IMO, this one doesn't rise to murder.

As for your example of the husband catching the wife in bed, that would be charged in more cases than not, as manslaughter.

In some states...NY for example Murder 1 is only if committed against a police officer, officer of the court. Murder 2 there is what Murder 1 is in many states - premeditated, lying in wait, planned, and most definitely "with malice".

Common Law and many states follow this. Murder 1 is premeditated, lying in wait, etc. Murder 2 is Heat of Passion, intentional but not premeditated, Reckless disregard for human life - as in PS...but CA writes their law differently as "malice implied". (I can't quote it, but I know of a state some years ago that had Murder 3..it was like an enhanced Manslaughter charge...cause I can't remember!) Manslaughter comes in different forms..vehicular..and involuntary and voluntary. Voluntary manslaughter in many states would be someone knowingly getting into a vehicle, drunk, driving (recklessly) and killing someone - the actual "intent" isn't there, but the recklessness in it makes it so. Involuntary would be, for example, in some states, losing control of your automobile and causing the death of someone, it's a negliegence factor but the "intent" isn't there, or stupidly having a rifle loaded (illegal) in the back of your car..pulling it out and it "goes off" and kills someone. There are so many statutes and some loopholes. But Heat of Passion is murder, it is not manslaughter. Murder has that "intent" element..Heat of Passion certainly has that Intent, even if just "in the heat of the moment", hence the tack put onto it.

Not being argumentative..just adding to the discussion..which those of you who "know me" know I write "too long posts"...so I stop it here!

[NatalieB]

Originally Posted by Jayne

In some states...NY for example Murder 1 is only if committed against a police officer, officer of the court. Murder 2 there is what Murder 1 is in many states - premeditated, lying in wait, planned, and most definitely "with malice".

Common Law and many states follow this. Murder 1 is premeditated, lying in wait, etc. Murder 2 is Heat of Passion, intentional but not premeditated, Reckless disregard for human life - as in PS...but CA writes their law differently as "malice implied". (I can't quote it, but I know of a state some years ago that had Murder 3..it was like an enhanced Manslaughter charge...cause I can't remember!) Manslaughter comes in different forms..vehicular..and involuntary and voluntary. Voluntary manslaughter in many states would be someone knowingly getting into a vehicle, drunk, driving (recklessly) and killing someone - the actual "intent" isn't there, but the recklessness in it makes it so. Involuntary would be, for example, in some states, losing control of your automobile and causing the death of someone, it's a negliegence factor but the "intent" isn't there, or stupidly having a rifle loaded (illegal) in the back of your car..pulling it out and it "goes off" and kills someone. There are so many statutes and some loopholes. But Heat of Passion is murder, it is not manslaughter. Murder has that "intent" element..Heat of Passion certainly has that Intent, even if just "in the heat of the moment", hence the tack put onto it.

Not being argumentative..just adding to the discussion..which those of you who "know me" know I write "too long posts"...so I stop it here!

Long posts? From you? NEVER! LOL I have a tendency to not keep them pithy myself.

While the courts can interpret laws how they see fit and states definitely define their own law, I have never seen a killing in the heat of passion not reduced to manslaughter.

I thought these links were a bit interesting.
Columbia Encyclopedia: manslaughter,
homicide committed without justification or excuse but distinguished from murder by the absence of the element of malice aforethought. Modern criminal statutes usually divide it into degrees, the most common distinction being between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. Voluntary manslaughter is a killing done in the heat of passion provoked by acts of the victim such as to cause a reasonable man to act rashly and without reflection. Such provocation may include violent assault and an unlawful attempt to arrest him, but not mere insulting words or gestures. Involuntary manslaughter is a killing in which there is no intention to kill at all. It occurs when the killing is the result of the commission of a crime that is neither a felony nor an act likely to cause great bodily harm or when it is the result of a lawful act done in a criminal manner, e.g., a case of negligence. The advent of the automobile caused many manslaughter cases that arise from reckless and careless driving; in the statutes of some states of the United States such killing is a separate crime.
http://www.answers.com/topic/manslaughter

Heat of Passion
A finding that a person who killed another acted in the heat of passion will reduce murder to Manslaughter under certain circumstances. The essential prerequisites for such a reduction are that the accused must be provoked to a point of great anger or rage, such that the person loses his or her normal capacity for self-control; the circumstances must be such that a reasonable person, faced with the same degree of provocation, would react in a similar manner; and finally, there must not have been an opportunity for the accused to have "cooled off" or regained self-control during the period between the provocation and the killing.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...eat+of+passion

EDIT: I'm in PA and know many other state's laws better than my own, but since my kids are in youth and law, I know PA is a state that separates laws where an automobile is involved.

[JD1974]

Originally Posted by NatalieB

I think it's these boards that do it to us. We see all the bad in the world and are probably more panicky by nature. My kids are now 17 and 18 and could probably count on ONE hand the number of times they've been left home alone. I do think we're the exception to the rule though.

I can remember hoofing it miles to town by MYSELF at that age. Mostly I'd go with my brother, but if he didn't want to go, I certainly didn't stay home.

I agree that this doesn't even rise to the level of manslaughter.

I wonder what people do if they don't have a car and have to go somewhere in that kind of weather? Sit and wait until something possibly worse happens or walk into town to get the fix for the problem. I have no idea how many times my grandparents gave me the "I had to walk 2 miles to school no matter what the weather was" when I wanted a ride to the store or something.

I used to walk to school in horrendous weather, I lived almost in the UP in Michigan. The difference is I was dressed appropriately, these kids were in a car. I wonder what they were wearing when they set off walking? I did see the boy who survived had thermal underwear on?

Originally Posted by Jayne

In some states...NY for example Murder 1 is only if committed against a police officer, officer of the court. Murder 2 there is what Murder 1 is in many states - premeditated, lying in wait, planned, and most definitely "with malice".

<snip>

I think there are aggrevating circumstances that can make murder of someone other than an officer or state employee a first degree offense.


http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewr...esourceID=1426

[museumgirl]

If they were riding in the car, they probably didn't have snowpants and boots and such on.... I would assume. My kids don't always put all their stuff on if we're traveling in the car.

I agree he should have walked with them... ten miles is a long way... whether you've walked it or not... weather really changes things. Wind makes it way colder and slows you down... if they were only in shoes once their feet got cold, they would walk slower as well.

My original thoughts were that he was overly careless. While I agree he still used poor judgement by letting them walk (or not letting them take the cell phone) and not going after them after he got the car out... I do not believe he should be charged w/murder or manslaughter....

[JD1974]

Originally Posted by museumgirl

If they were riding in the car, they probably didn't have snowpants and boots and such on.... I would assume. My kids don't always put all their stuff on if we're traveling in the car.

I agree he should have walked with them... ten miles is a long way... whether you've walked it or not... weather really changes things. Wind makes it way colder and slows you down... if they were only in shoes once their feet got cold, they would walk slower as well.

My original thoughts were that he was overly careless. While I agree he still used poor judgement by letting them walk (or not letting them take the cell phone) and not going after them after he got the car out... I do not believe he should be charged w/murder or manslaughter....

I agree. Hindsight is 20/20, woulda, coulda, shoulda only applies after the fact. This guy has to be devastated over what happened.

[Jayne]

Originally Posted by StillEG

I think there are aggrevating circumstances that can make murder of someone other than an officer or state employee a first degree offense.


http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewr...esourceID=1426

yes..I was just stating the law of NY..which is a "rare" situation...there Murder 1 is only that..Murder 2 in NY is what Murder 1 is in most states.. It's just the "wording"..the sentences aren't all that different. It just puts someone who murders a police officer, etc. automatically in Murder 1. If not that..then Murder 2..but the outcome won't be much different..it makes the "burden of proof" a bit more manageable..if that makes any sense..and maybe it isn't fair..but I'm not going to argue that.

[NatalieB]

Here is a bit of information pulled from the 1 links posted above by, Senni.

First link:

A timeline to tragedy

Dec. 25

9 a.m. - Vehicle became stuck in a snowdrift along West Magic Road, less than a mile from the Idaho Highway 75 turnoff, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

10:30 to 11 a.m. - Children start walking, according to their uncle and passenger, Kenneth Quintana.

12 to 1 p.m. - The vehicle is unstuck, according to Quintana.

1 to 2 p.m. - Children's mom, JoLeta Jenks, calls Aragon saying kids haven't arrived, according to Quintana. Aragon and Quintana drive back to where the children began walking and go on foot to look for them, according to the Blaine County Sheriff's Office.

7 p.m. - A friend of Jenks calls police saying the kids are missing. A Blaine County deputy and a snow plow head out to look for the kids, but they too become stuck after hitting a snow drift and slide off the road, according to the BCSO.

8:30 p.m. - Blaine County Search and Rescue set up on West Magic Road, one mile from the Highway 75, with one vehicle and two snowmobile teams, according to the BCSO.

Also, Quintana says he and Aragon stop their search for the children and meet up with police.

9:50 p.m. - The male child, Bear Aragon, is found in a Bureau of Land Management bathroom, near the intersection of West Magic Road and the Magic Dam Road in Camas County, 4.5 miles from where he began walking. He had hypothermia and was wearing only long underwear, having discarded his jacket, pants and shoes.

10:20 p.m. - Search dogs are deployed to look for the female child, Sage Aragon. The plan was to search from where Bear Aragon was found, back east towards Highway 75, after the boy told authorities he and his sister split up and she walked back to her dad's car.

Dec. 26

2 a.m. - Sage is found unconscious and hypothermic next to a barbed wire fence on the south side of West Magic Road, mostly covered in snow and barely visible. She was wearing a down coat, black shirt, pajama pants and snow boots, according to the BCSO.

4:15 a.m. - Sage is pronounced dead at St. Luke's Wood River Medical Center, according to the BCSO.

2nd link and these are pulled randomly:

"She was mostly covered with windblown snow and was barely visible," the sheriff's office reported in a press release. "She was still wearing her brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snow boots. Sage was unconscious and hypothermic."

According to the sheriff's office, temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing ranged from 27 degrees above zero to minus 5 degrees.

In the time line above, it appears lots of details are missing about the father trying to find the children. It doesn't appear that he simply went on home as if nothing had occurred.

[NatalieB]

Here was a bit more from the first link that I thought was important.

Lincoln County authorities also say the road was undriveable due to snow drifts, according to court papers.

Quinatana sobbed Monday over a phone line, while repeatedly defending Aragon.

"He didn't send those kids out there to die," said Quintana. "He just wanted their mother to spend Christmas with them."

Quintana says he and Aragon searched and yelled out for the children for at least four hours, with towels wrapped around their heads, but they stopped as hypothermia set in. He said he had no cell phone reception in the search area.

'They found her (Sage Aragon) a mile and a half from where I turned around," Quintana said. "If we had kept going, we could have gotten her in time. I just couldn't go anymore, I was so tired. The whole time, we were yelling for the children, our eyes and throat were wind burnt."

Originally Posted by Jayne

yes..I was just stating the law of NY..which is a "rare" situation...there Murder 1 is only that..Murder 2 in NY is what Murder 1 is in most states.. It's just the "wording"..the sentences aren't all that different. It just puts someone who murders a police officer, etc. automatically in Murder 1. If not that..then Murder 2..but the outcome won't be much different..it makes the "burden of proof" a bit more manageable..if that makes any sense..and maybe it isn't fair..but I'm not going to argue that.

The link is to New York law. I thought the guy that murdered his therapist earlier this year in NY was charged with first degree... convicted of it too?http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/22/...ver/index.html