8 year old accused of double murder

I went to respond on the proper forum but I see we're on holiday lockdown/forum now...so....

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...oy1126-ON.html

A search affidavit by Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez says the child "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions. (The boy) told a CPS . . . worker that when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. (The boy) kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."

The wording is interesting. It doesn't say the writings are a fact...they are "believed" to exist, in the application for a search warrant. It doesn't say there was any finding of such writings.

I don't know if this boy killed his father and another man or not...I do know the "confession" doesn't seem to match the evidence. It seems the evidence found also doesn't match the sworn affadavits given to support the search warrants.

I know it is not impossible for a child to be a cold blooded killer. I just don't see anything to support the fact that this child is or could be such a killer.

It's also interesting how this info comes out in spite of a gag order in the cae....

Gag has been broken, big time.

Defense to the rescue:

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said Wednesday that the boy's grandmother likely was stressed and that he plans to interview her.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...qNNTAD94MVTPG0

I saw on one link that there was blood on one of the papers, I'll go get it.

Originally Posted by Kara

I went to respond on the proper forum but I see we're on holiday lockdown/forum now...so....

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...oy1126-ON.html



The wording is interesting. It doesn't say the writings are a fact...they are "believed" to exist, in the application for a search warrant. It doesn't say there was any finding of such writings.

I don't know if this boy killed his father and another man or not...I do know the "confession" doesn't seem to match the evidence. It seems the evidence found also doesn't match the sworn affadavits given to support the search warrants.

I know it is not impossible for a child to be a cold blooded killer. I just don't see anything to support the fact that this child is or could be such a killer.

It's also interesting how this info comes out in spite of a gag order in the cae....

From the link above:
The search warrant return does not appear to list any kind of spankings ledger among items recovered from the family residence. It does note that evidence includes a spelling worksheet with blood on it and a white sheet of paper labeled, "Story (boy's first name) the Family."

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

Gag has been broken, big time.

Defense to the rescue:

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said Wednesday that the boy's grandmother likely was stressed and that he plans to interview her.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...qNNTAD94MVTPG0

I saw on one link that there was blood on one of the papers, I'll go get it.

I remember reading something about blood on paper...but I don't remember what paper it was.

Maybe those prior calls to address were for domestic violence?? Maybe it wasn't adult on adult domestic violence? Maybe the child was taking way too may "swats"? Or maybe that was just a theory designed to get a search warrant which failed to produce the expected documents??

BTW...glad ya found your way over here. I tend to spend more time reading than posting, but that's hard to do if nobody is posting.

[WillowInFlight]

I am so torn on this, at 8 do you really know right from wrong? Hearing him talk breaks my heart.

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

From the link above:
The search warrant return does not appear to list any kind of spankings ledger among items recovered from the family residence. It does note that evidence includes a spelling worksheet with blood on it and a white sheet of paper labeled, "Story (boy's first name) the Family."

I should have kept reading before responding....

Hmmm...so it was a spelling worksheet that had blood on it. No "tally sheet" of spankings was recovered though......

From Kara's first link again:
Looks like we will hear about a couple of trouble makers:
-------------------
The case file contains other revelations, including statements from friends that Romans and the boy's father had been involved in disputes with co-workers at the nearby power plant, and with men at a local bar.
------------------
What was this child's life like?

Originally Posted by WillowInFlight

I am so torn on this, at 8 do you really know right from wrong? Hearing him talk breaks my heart.

I think an 8 year old does understand the difference between right and wrong. I don't think they fully understand the long term ramifications of murder though.

With that said, if this child did commit this crime, I don't think he is beyond saving. I'm also not convinced that he did commit this crime.

Originally Posted by WillowInFlight

I am so torn on this, at 8 do you really know right from wrong? Hearing him talk breaks my heart.

I don't think so. I guess we will see what the specialists say.

[blue bird]

When did he supposedly tell CPS that his 1000th spanking would be his last?

Boy not abused my A*S!

It is 3 pages, but it is good!
Why Do Kids Kill?
8-Year-Old's Killing Spree Raises Questions About Why Children Murder

Experts familiar with parental murders by young children, but not involved in this case, said abuse is almost always a factor in such crimes.

"The number of homicides committed by children under 11 is infinitesimal. These are very rare events," said Paul Mones, the only lawyer in the country whose clients consist exclusively of children accused of killing their parents.

"The vast majority of parricides -- the murder of a parent -- committed by minors involve physical abuse and generally involve teenagers. Seventy-five percent of such murders involve boys who kill their fathers and 15 percent involve boys who kill their mothers," said Mones, who has defended hundreds of minors in 25 years of practice, though none younger than 10.

The most recent previous case of an 8-year-old killing his parent occurred in August 1990, when a Pennsylvania boy found his father beating his mother. The boy repeatedly plunged an 8-inch kitchen knife into the back of his father William Jones, 59.
A coroner's jury cleared the boy in the stabbing after authorities urged a finding of justifiable homicide.

--------On the last page:
Mones said a child as young as 8 would likely not be convicted, because he would not have the ability to understand his actions.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6233064&page=1

[blue bird]

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

I don't think so. I guess we will see what the specialists say.

Does this change your view at all? I still feel this crime was too complex for an 8yr old to pull off.

[WillowInFlight]

Originally Posted by Kara

I think an 8 year old does understand the difference between right and wrong. I don't think they fully understand the long term ramifications of murder though.

With that said, if this child did commit this crime, I don't think he is beyond saving. I'm also not convinced that he did commit this crime.

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

Originally Posted by January

I find it very odd that the grandmother says "I knew he did it. He slept in my bed that night and cuddled up to me" (something to that effect). Does it occur to her that he had just seen 2 dead bodies probably for the first time in his life and that he just lost his father and maybe that is why this little boy was "cuddling up to her" and not because of guilt but because he was scared, confused and in shock?

Also, I don't care if my grandson committed a crime or not, the LAST thing I would be doing is shouting to the cops that my grandson committed a crime. I would be protecting him even if it meant I am going to jail for it. Without any evidence, the grandparents have already convicted him of murder. On top of that, they are talking about these deaths in front of an 8 year old boy. Then they go on to say that if anybody could commit murder it would be their grandson. What kind of people are they?


None of this adds up. I think the boy is being railroaded and the more carp that comes out, the more I am convinced of that.

1- I thought the same exact thing. He was in shock, he cuddled.

2-What kind of people are they? TRASH!!!! Her X HUSBAND LEROY was egging her on to tell the cops MORE!!

Originally Posted by WillowInFlight

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

8 yr old minds are not fully developed. He is not beyond saving.

IF he even did it.

I STILL think he is covering for someone.

Originally Posted by blue bird

Does this change your view at all? I still feel this crime was too complex for an 8yr old to pull off.

Not at all. I am with you.

Originally Posted by WillowInFlight

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

What do you mean?

If a child actually had the capability to plot and plan a murder like this....the juvenile nature of the mind would mean they could still be salvaged (in my mind).

I don't really believe this particular child did plot, plan and lie in wait, as has been alledged....but even if he did, I don't think he is unsalvagable.

[incidentally]

Originally Posted by WillowInFlight

Not beyond saving? Wow, that's strong.

I'm confused. Kara said, "I don't think he is beyond saving".

Are you quoting something else?

Originally Posted by blue bird

When did he supposedly tell CPS that his 1000th spanking would be his last?

Boy not abused my A*S!

Another good question... When did he tell CPS this? Before or after the killing of these two men???

Was CPS involved with this family prior to the killings?

[WillowInFlight]

Originally Posted by Kara

What do you mean?

If a child actually had the capability to plot and plan a murder like this....the juvenile nature of the mind would mean they could still be salvaged (in my mind).

I don't really believe this particular child did plot, plan and lie in wait, as has been alledged....but even if he did, I don't think he is unsalvagable.

Kara I am so sorry, I totally misread your post. I thought you were saying he couldn't be saved. Once again I'm sorry, I read your post to fast.

Originally Posted by WillowInFlight

Kara I am so sorry, I totally misread your post. I thought you were saying he couldn't be saved. Once again I'm sorry, I read your post to fast.

No worries!

Originally Posted by blue bird

When did he supposedly tell CPS that his 1000th spanking would be his last?

Boy not abused my A*S!

Good Question. They got the search warrant the 6th. right?

A search affidavit by Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez says the child "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions. (The boy) told a CPS . . . worker that when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. (The boy) kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."
---------------
Did he have a CPS worker prior to all of this?
When did they mention CPS came in at the hearing? I can't remember.

Prayers for this little Boy

I see where the got them, they are public, we just cant read them.

PUBLIC ACCESS TO COURT INFORMATION

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...on/default.asp

Click the enter, type in any name you want. I found quite a few connected to this case.

[incidentally]

Originally Posted by Justice_Dawg

I see where the got them, they are public, we just cant read them.

PUBLIC ACCESS TO COURT INFORMATION

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...on/default.asp

Click the enter, type in any name you want. I found quite a few connected to this case.

I'm really tired so maybe that is why I am unable to negotiate the site. Can you give me names? I typed in some and it said I didn't provide enough information.

Thanks.

Tally

[incidentally]

Originally Posted by incidentally

I'm really tired so maybe that is why I am unable to negotiate the site. Can you give me names? I typed in some and it said I didn't provide enough information.

Thanks.

Tally

Never mind. I figured it out.

[PensiveOne]

Did you read the last link that bkwits put in the thread. The foxnews one. Where did they get all of this. This kid doesn't have a chance. They are making it out like he is the Anti-Christ or something.

""In a report, St. Johns police officer Ramon Morales said he saw the boy in the Apache County courthouse on Nov. 7 — two days after the double homicide. Morales was sending a text message at the time, and the boy asked if he could look at Morales' cell phone.

"He then said 'My lawyer has a phone like that and my dad had one, too, but he's not going to need it, he's not coming back."' Morales wrote in the report.""

[Crispy]

I would like to know when he told CPS this and in what context. Were they talking about him being spanked? What if somebody said How many spankings do you think would be too many? An 8 year old kid, says like a thousand...just throwing out a random number they think is too much. jmo

[Crispy]

Link to a police report in pdf format

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126...suppreport.pdf

[PensiveOne]

Go to this link and then listen to the video "Grandmother:Boy capable of killings". In that video they say they say that in the police reports it says that Tim Romans was having an affair and he had a girlfriend in town. Plus both men were having serious problems at work.

It seems like these two victims weren't so innocent after all.

[PensiveOne]

OOPS. I forgot to give you the link

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html

[blue bird]

Originally Posted by Crispy

Link to a police report in pdf format

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/1126...suppreport.pdf

What is so horrible that the grandmother couldn't bring herself to say it? It seems that everything is pointing to this boy being abused. What in the world was going on in that house? Something must have been going on for the stepmom to tell the boy "what goes on in this house stays in this house" which also explains the domestic violence visits the police made to the house before the killings.

I'm very disturbed if he told CPS before the killings that 1000 spankings would be his limit.

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

Go to this link and then listen to the video "Grandmother:Boy capable of killings". In that video they say they say that in the police reports it says that Tim Romans was having an affair and he had a girlfriend in town. Plus both men were having serious problems at work.

It seems like these two victims weren't so innocent after all.

OMG!

So why was Tim calling his wife everyday? Great husband that he was?
Tim had asked the girlfriend to marry him the night before?

I see all heII breaking loose.

[book]

Just as DNA is new science, so is the new science that proves the brain is not fully developed until we reach 25. Reasoning, judgment and consequences are lacking in the 14/15 year old brain, as well as the 18/19 year old. Many would say a child is not competent to stand trial, based solely on the maturity of their brain. A highly abusive childhood further inhibits the growth of the part of the brain responsible for decision-making, and makes it even harder to act rationally.

So if this is true [and I believe it is] a 14/15 year old can't understand the ramifications of their actions, waiving their Miranda rights etc., then what makes anyone think an eight year old can?

An eight year old can't have a jury of his peers.

[MichelleP]

Originally Posted by PensiveOne

Go to this link and then listen to the video "Grandmother:Boy capable of killings". In that video they say they say that in the police reports it says that Tim Romans was having an affair and he had a girlfriend in town. Plus both men were having serious problems at work.

It seems like these two victims weren't so innocent after all.

They may have not been too innocent when they were alive, but they still doesn't mean they should be killed. What I don't understand is if there were people that knew about this abuse that was happening outside of the house why didn't they do something about it before it led to this?

[FurthurBB]

Originally Posted by January

On being released for the holiday:
I can see both sides of that equation. The boy needs human contact with his mother more than between a pane of glass or a half hour twice a week (was that the time he gets?) in her lap. By the same token going back after spending time out with mom is going to be hard on both of them. I know if it were me, and this is just me, I would sell my soul to get out of the country with him once I had my hands on him. Then there is the safety factor because the way that town is, they are probably lining up to shoot both mom and son dead. Vigilante Justice runs amok in St. Johns so I read. It's lose lose.

I would definitely take him to Canada. I believe the Canadian government would protect them and not send them back to the United States. IMO

Records indicate the 8-year-old had no history of psychiatric care and was not on any medications. The search warrant affidavit contains the first public disclosure that the child had been in contact with Child Protective Services workers. CPS cases are confidential, and an Apache County Superior Court judge has imposed a gag order, so the timing and context of his statement remains unclear.http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...oy1126-ON.html

I am betting it was before the murders.

JMO

Police in San Carlos, where Romans grew up, told St. Johns investigators that he had a prior drug arrest and was suspected of minor drug dealing.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...johns1127.html
----------------
We have heard this before!!
-----------------
More from that link:
The search-warrant records contain the first public disclosure that the boy was in contact with CPS workers and may have endured regular corporal punishment. The records do not mention a diary of spankings.

Poor baby..

[bkwits]

Again, I say this latest release of "information" stinks. The Apache Co. LE is trying to save face. There actually is NO new information. Where are these ledgers and writings of the child?[


If he did write or say that 1,000 spankings was his limit, I would take that to mean that he was going to run away. He is not accused of killing his stepmom and as far as we know right now, she is the spanker. IMO

Originally Posted by bkwits

Again, I say this latest release of "information" stinks. The Apache Co. LE is trying to save face. There actually is NO new information. Where are these ledgers and writings of the child?[


If he did write or say that 1,000 spankings was his limit, I would take that to mean that he was going to run away. He is not accused of killing his stepmom and as far as we know right now, she is the spanker. IMO

ITA, if he was planning on killing, he would have killed Dad and step-mom, not Dad and Tim. That would have at least made more sense.

Tim was shot more times. That makes me think someone wanted him dead worse.
--------------
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...johns1127.html
The boy's father was shot four times, twice in the head. Romans was hit six times. The shot in one of his two head wounds was fired at close range.

Which his?

Gotta love media reporting.