6/13 to .... 6/30

[juliekan]

http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...-world-ending/

A man in Abilene came home on Wednesday(6/11/08) from work to find a brochure on his door for auto and life insurance. The agent was Yisrayl Hawkins, the head of the House of Yahweh who predicted a nuclear holocaust starting 6/12/08. The infamous "nuclear baby". Oh and I just checked the date and time on my computer...6/13/08, 12:23. So far, so good. Maybe I should check out that brochure......

[juliekan]

then again it IS Friday the 13th.............

[Roux]

I wanted to post a comment in response to evalles but the 6/12 thread is closed. She said she was skeptical about human sacrifice, and Mimi asked if evalles was familiar with 19th C Mormon tenets. IMO human sacrifice is too much an inflammatory phase, so FLDS use the term blood atonement. And it's been used in the 20th C.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux [*]I wanted to post a comment in response to evalles but the 6/12 thread is closed. She said she was skeptical about human sacrifice, and Mimi asked if evalles was familiar with 19th C Mormon tenets. IMO human sacrifice is too much an inflammatory phase, so FLDS use the term blood atonement. And it's been used in the 20th C. [/*]

So now there's evidence that they've sacrificed humans on altars and stuff ?

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles [*]


So now there's evidence that they've sacrificed humans on altars and stuff ? [/*]

No, they don't use it that way. They just murder people they think are a threat to them. You have heard of Ervil Lebaron? Also Ron Lafferty that Walton posted about the other day. I'd never heard of him so went and looked up a couple of articles. He murdered his sister-on-law and her 15 mo. old baby because she spoke out against plural marriage.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux [*]

No, they don't use it that way. They just murder people they think are a threat to them. You have heard of Ervil Lebaron? Also Ron Lafferty that Walton posted about the other day. I'd never heard of him so went and looked up a couple of articles. He murdered his sister-on-law and her 15 mo. old baby because she spoke out against plural marriage. [/*]

And that happens outside of the FLDS also.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Roux [*]I wanted to post a comment in response to evalles but the 6/12 thread is closed. She said she was skeptical about human sacrifice, and Mimi asked if evalles was familiar with 19th C Mormon tenets. IMO human sacrifice is too much an inflammatory phase, so FLDS use the term blood atonement. And it's been used in the 20th C. [/*]

I agree that the term 'human sacrifice' would not give the average reader an accurate impression of what Mormon history is re: blood atonement.

Wouldn't surprise me if Warren thought it should be re-implemented, though.

[Roux]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

And that happens outside of the FLDS also. [/*]

I'm not aware of any Christian denomination that embraces blood atonement (except that of Jesus Christ).

[evalles]

Originally posted by Roux [*]

I'm not aware of any Christian denomination that embraces blood atonement (except that of Jesus Christ). [/*]

I was talking about people murdering family members.

[Details]

Blood atonement is different from murder, in that it is sanctioned - demanded - by the religion. Murder is a crime in every religion I've ever heard of. Blood atonement is not.

[LLaFren]

why is it that every hotel I've been to for the last 3 weeks has had problems with the internet?

I'm home and going to read what I missed, form my opinions on what's going on and come back and actually voice an opinion.

Look out, I'm HOME!

See you guys soon!

[Roux]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]why is it that every hotel I've been to for the last 3 weeks has had problems with the internet?

I'm home and going to read what I missed, form my opinions on what's going on and come back and actually voice an opinion.

Look out, I'm HOME!

See you guys soon! [/*]

Glad you're home. Post away!

[KatyDid]

Blood Atonement and the Early Mormon Church

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...atonement.html

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by KatyDid [*]Blood Atonement and the Early Mormon Church

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...atonement.html [/*]

Thanks for posting that link. All the better to have a synopsis on one main page instead of multiple pages.

Considering how committted the FLDS are to the OLD ways & to not make any concessions to modern times, it would not surprise me a bit if we found out that Warren & his hierachy of elders were still faithful believers in the necessity for blood atonement.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Mimi428 [*]

Thanks for posting that link. All the better to have a synopsis on one main page instead of multiple pages.

Considering how committted the FLDS are to the OLD ways & to not make any concessions to modern times, it would not surprise me a bit if we found out that Warren & his hierachy of elders were still faithful believers in the necessity for blood atonement. [/*]

I read the book 'Stolen Innocence'. Warren Jeffs threatened Elissa Wall with blood atonement when her cousin/husband made his final complaint about her to him. That is one of the reasons she decided to leave when she did. It frightened her and she was afraid for her life.

[walton]

From 2003

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-...ouble-exposure

Fundamentalist Mormon prophet Warren Jeffs came close to getting arrested over the last year because the Utah Attorney General's Office believed he wanted disobedient teenager Vanessa Rohbock sacrificed to the Lord in a religious ritual called Blood Atonement.

and later on in the article:

The Utah Attorney General's Office, Barton says, was considering charging Jeffs with conspiracy to commit murder for issuing the blood-atonement order on Vanessa. But with Vanessa back in the FLDS fold, whether of her own volition or not, the case was shelved in favor of what the AG's Office hopes will be more prosecutable crimes by the prophet.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by walton [*]From 2003

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-...ouble-exposure

Fundamentalist Mormon prophet Warren Jeffs came close to getting arrested over the last year because the Utah Attorney General's Office believed he wanted disobedient teenager Vanessa Rohbock sacrificed to the Lord in a religious ritual called Blood Atonement.

and later on in the article:

The Utah Attorney General's Office, Barton says, was considering charging Jeffs with conspiracy to commit murder for issuing the blood-atonement order on Vanessa. But with Vanessa back in the FLDS fold, whether of her own volition or not, the case was shelved in favor of what the AG's Office hopes will be more prosecutable crimes by the prophet. [/*]

OMG, that last sentence. What in heaven's name (literally) is the AG's office thinking? I suppose since she returned to Warren's fold, they figure she is safe??

They keep doing things like this, which in turn give the FLDS license to continue this kind of behavior. FLDS got away with it once...the only thing FLDS changes is to go deeper underground with it. They become more secretive and let fewer of the 'elders' know what they plan to do.

[walton]

Originally posted by KatyDid [*]

OMG, that last sentence. What in heaven's name (literally) is the AG's office thinking? I suppose since she returned to Warren's fold, they figure she is safe??

They keep doing things like this, which in turn give the FLDS license to continue this kind of behavior. FLDS got away with it once...the only thing FLDS changes is to go deeper underground with it. They become more secretive and let fewer of the 'elders' know what they plan to do. [/*]

Not just once.


They don't need to go underground. These guys aren't doing anything but making excuses. The paper trail starts and ends with them and they all should be poop canned. imo

From the top on down.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by walton [*]

Not just once.


They don't need to go underground. These guys aren't doing anything but making excuses. The paper trail starts and ends with them and they all should be poop canned. imo

From the top on down. [/*]

LOL! Well yes, that's not a bad idea walton.

[walton]

http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/mai...rticleID=16073

Think Warren will make it to this court date?



I don't.

[LLaFren]

After going back and reading everything I've missed, I've got a question.

Where the heck is the money coming from to move? None of them have verified income (that I can find), I know one of the requirements for the kids parents that I foster is that they have a JOB. It's like they have a magic wand to get what they want when they want it (JMO).

I could really use that magic wand sometimes

[evalles]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]After going back and reading everything I've missed, I've got a question.

Where the heck is the money coming from to move? None of them have verified income (that I can find), I know one of the requirements for the kids parents that I foster is that they have a JOB. It's like they have a magic wand to get what they want when they want it (JMO).

I could really use that magic wand sometimes [/*]

I can't believe my husband woke me up to go to the garage sale across the street. I wanted to sleep until the cable guy got here.

I know there are a couple of websites collecting $$ & one that has an adopt-an-flds family thing goin' on. There's money there at the YFZ ranch, I'd imagine. They might be giving the families money. Also, I saw a video of one of the mothers that has a job.

Now, what you mentioned about the job requirement.
I went through a year of family court with my teenager and I had 12 or 13 court dates in as many months. Then there was the individual and family counseling, parenting classes and time taken off for meetings. Then, in my case, there were the days I was too depressed to get out of bed.
This was all because of the commisioner's ruling that my relationship with my 16 year old was impaired and we needed therapeutic intervention.
I would imagine with a smaller child and harsher allegations there would be even greater requirements.

My point is, many would lose their jobs if they had one, due to taking so much time off.
I worried all the time, even though I'm pretty well established in my job.
If I hadn't been there long or wasn't as good at what I do, I would have lost my job, and then where would my other two children be ? Would they have taken them too, because I couldn't pay my mortgage and utilities ?
Would I have had to go on welfare and let the taxpayers support me ?
Family court cases can easily bankrupt a family.

Doesn't this set families up for failure ?

Another thing that bothers me, is that they'll take a child when a parent doesn't have enough money to pay for certain necessities.
For example, utilities being shut off or losing housing because they get behind on rent.
Why don't they do more to help the bio-parents fianancially if the child isn't actually abused.
Instead of paying for the child to be in out of home care, help the mom pay the light or water bill. Provide funding for housing,etc.
IMO, this would be best for the children. Lets face it, most kids would rather live in the car with mom than be separated from the only person that has ever cared for them.
No matter how good a foster home is, for most, nobody loves you like your mom.

By helping non-abusive,poor families they would open up more foster homes to the truly abused kids.
When my daugher started acting out at her aunts and was locked out on the porch, she went to foster care for 2 weeks.
When she wouldn't follow the rules in the first home, she was sent to another. I remember the worker told her she'd better clean up her act because if she was moved again, it might not be into such a good foster home.
She stressed that there were some foster homes that my daughter would not want to be in.
This really bothers me, there shouldn't be bad foster homes,and if there are, the CPS worker shouldn't knowingly place a child there.
After the appeals court ruling, I'm more ticked off about my case.
I was never even accused of any physical abuse and you could look at my daughter's wardrobe and tell she wasn't neglected.

Many of our arguments would start with her being grounded from her cell phone ( I might have used this too much, but it was the only thing that worked).
I think cell phones for teens are the roots of all evil.
Wasn't there a girl that tried to kill her mom for taking her cell phone ?
I know my daughter had a severe, emotional breakdown every time she was grounded from her cell phone.
As a matter of fact, my whole situation started when she lost her cell phone and was told she wasn't getting the care until her behavior improved.
She would throw worse tantrums than a two year old.
Ahh... the memories.

[walton]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]After going back and reading everything I've missed, I've got a question.

Where the heck is the money coming from to move? None of them have verified income (that I can find), I know one of the requirements for the kids parents that I foster is that they have a JOB. It's like they have a magic wand to get what they want when they want it (JMO).

I could really use that magic wand sometimes [/*]

Do you remember when the raid first took place it was reported that they had a cheese factory, dairy, and a mollases mill. They also had a concrete plant. I think they used the concrete plant just for themselves as no one in the area has said that they have gotten anything from them.

Questions:
1. If they had so many cattle that they had a dairy farm and a cheese "factory" where were all the cattle?

2.If they had a cattle and dairy farm for product for outsiders did they sell their product at market? Was their a truck that came to the farm and picked up the milk? or was it for their own use?

3. Molasses factory. Where were they getting the sugar cane? And have you seen what it takes to make molasses?

http://www.maicoindia.com/sugar_project.htm

[Roux]

Apparently they also had a furniture factory, as I read last week (don't remember where) that the factory was up and running to replace all of the furniture that was taken by those who had re-located.

[walton]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3534609

The cost of the April raid on a polygamist compound in West Texas is expected to top $14 million, about one-third of it in lawyers' fees, according to a published analysis of state records.


Check this out: http://thehopeorg.org/taxes.html

From June 2002 through June 2003 the Arizona Attorney General's office reports 8 million tax dollars in welfare services have gone to support polygamy.

During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.

5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional 660 thousand in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.

In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes.

[Roux]

Originally posted by walton [*]http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3534609

The cost of the April raid on a polygamist compound in West Texas is expected to top $14 million, about one-third of it in lawyers' fees, according to a published analysis of state records.


Check this out: http://thehopeorg.org/taxes.html

From June 2002 through June 2003 the Arizona Attorney General's office reports 8 million tax dollars in welfare services have gone to support polygamy.

During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.

5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional 660 thousand in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.

In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes. [/*]

Do you suppose the reason they never received welfare in TX was because they didn't want to reveal too much personal information to authorities? AZ seems to have just ignored the welfare fraud for decades, but TX might not have been so accommodating.

I don't understand why the public is not outraged by this unethical use of taxpayer funds. It is a slap in the face to every ordinary, hard-working family that pays their own way. Not to even mention or get into the issue of health insurance.

As to YFZ, with all their other scams bringing in $$ it appears money is simply diverted to Warren's chosen few. I hope the financial irregularities will eventually bring them down, if nothing else is able to.

[Roux]

Originally posted by Imperfect [*]

I asked that very same question yesterday.

The majority of the women didn't return to the ranch. None, to my knowledge, has an outside-the-home job. A lot of them don't even have ID.

Any place I've ever rented has required a hefty deposit and plenty of verifiable information about who I am and how I'm going to be able to pay my rent.

And yet all the FLDS women have secured housing from what I've read. Only way I've ever seen that kind of fast magic happen is when there are piles and piles of cash involved.

[/*]

I read of one FLDS woman who relocated to San Antonio and was supposedly a registered nurse and said she got a job at a hospital. That was astounding to me -- how could she fit in unless she modified her manner of dress and coiff? Not to mention it seemed strange that she would have a current state license to be a nurse.

It used to be that real estate agencies, apt complexes, etc. would require a credit check. Don't know if FLDS had to do that; maybe they found some sympathetic landlords with vacant properties. Of course, they might have excellent credit ratings for all we know! But I rather agree with you that there was a great deal of cash involved.

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by Roux [*]

<snipped respectively>

As to YFZ, with all their other scams bringing in $$ it appears money is simply diverted to Warren's chosen few. I hope the financial irregularities will eventually bring them down, if nothing else is able to. [/*]

Where's Eliot Ness when you need him?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Imperfect [*]

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

[/*]

not a chance LOL!

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by Imperfect [*]

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

[/*]

The small copy was enough for my stomach

[LLaFren]

Where'd everybody go?

Originally posted by Roux [*]

Do you suppose the reason they never received welfare in TX was because they didn't want to reveal too much personal information to authorities? AZ seems to have just ignored the welfare fraud for decades, but TX might not have been so accommodating.

I don't understand why the public is not outraged by this unethical use of taxpayer funds. It is a slap in the face to every ordinary, hard-working family that pays their own way. Not to even mention or get into the issue of health insurance.

As to YFZ, with all their other scams bringing in $$ it appears money is simply diverted to Warren's chosen few. I hope the financial irregularities will eventually bring them down, if nothing else is able to. [/*]

Well, I am outraged!!!!

Everybody's saying that the people at YFZ weren't participating in welfare fraud, they had received NO funds from the state of Texas, but I think they were still getting it in another state. No way would Warren support all those people and pass up an opportunity to make some cash per head of "sheep", so to speak.
They could get it in Utah, for example, and wouldn't have to actually live in Utah. All their correspondence with their social worker would be done via mail for the most part, only once in awhile do you have to actually go into the Social Services Deaprtment. Checks go to whatever Utah address they give- the home of another FLDS person, I bet, and those checks all get forwarded to Warren.
It HAD to be this way. No man could support all those wives and kids with a regular job, I don't care what he did for a living. Food is expensive. It would be like feeding a medium summer camp population every day of the year! And most of those women look like they ain't missing any meals.

Anyway, yes I am one of those thats outraged. And I don't even live in any of the states being ripped off by them (as far as I know, at least!)

all jmo

eta: woops just thought of this- the social services in my state doesn't mail checks for welfare recipients anymore, they get a plastic card which they choose their own pin number for, and they use that at any ATM to get cash, and their food stamp balance is on the card too. So even easier, bet Warren has a paper somewhere of everybody's pin numbers!!

[evalles]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2...have-child.htm

That one girl? She does not have a child

[walton]

http://drphil.com/shows/show/1079/

scroll down to where it says Fly over the compound on picture #4 it says that they have a molasses factory. Where are the sugar beets? Where is the sugar cane?

What were those ovens used for that Robert Richter was talking about?

Why hasn't anyone confinscated those big generators that were covered by green tarps?

Do they have EIN numbers for any of these so called factories?

Do they fill out the proper paperwork for taxes?

12 cows makes a dairy farm? Enough to feed them and sell to others? Was it monitered by the Health Department?

Furniture factory? Do they have lumber hauled in to the compound? Do they sell to an outlet someplace? Did they collect state sales tax from their customers?

Did they use "farm fuel" for all their pickups? or did they use farm fuel for just equipment on their farm? Did they fill out the proper forms?



The Ranch was NOT registered as a Church.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect [*]

Okay, a show of hands.

Who 'clicked to enlarge' the picture of Warren at the link?

Anyone?

Anyone?

[/*]

<<<<< hand raising

Yup, I did. It was/is an older picture of Warren. Just after he got sentenced.

Bring me a current one will ya? lol

[juliekan]

Walton, remember when E.D. Hill on Fox jumped on Shurtleff? Well they just canned her show for a statement she made about Obama.


'
'
'

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by juliekan [*]Walton, remember when E.D. Hill on Fox jumped on Shurtleff? Well they just canned her show for a statement she made about Obama.


'
'
' [/*]

OH NO!!!

I think she is the best!!

[juliekan]

Originally posted by KatyDid [*]

OH NO!!!

I think she is the best!! [/*]

You can find the story on the Media thread

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan [*]Walton, remember when E.D. Hill on Fox jumped on Shurtleff? Well they just canned her show for a statement she made about Obama.


'
'
' [/*]

And BOR stays?

Must be some fat guy in an office that made that call. jmo The same guy that invented the shopping cart to go down an aisle that has less than 1/2 inch clearance.

The same guy that made that little donut spare tire that will take you all of 10 miles further than where you changed it.

The same guy that gives you to 10 on the volume control and speakers that go to 6.

Yup, that very same guy who keeps messin' up. jmo



I thought her coverage on the FLDS was good. I liked her spunk but even more than that I liked the fact that she did her research on the subject.

I can only hope that someone with her talent will move on to better things.

Though Nancy Grace is on a different network it is Nancy and E.D. Hill who I would want on my side. Maybe this will give E.D. Hill the oppurtunity and freedom to think outside the Fox "aisle".

[KatyDid]

On Oprah today...Lisa Ling has a follow up report on the polygamy show. Oprah has a polygamist father on her show.

I think I heard the advertisement correctly.