6/2 to ............

[witchy1]

Monday, June 2, are the children going back to the Ranch or are they to continue to be under state supervision?

[witchy1]

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

[evalles]

I saw that, there are lots. I wanted to hear what the FLDS themselves had to say about what was going on.
If you click on this, you'll find links to numerous other sites.

http://fldsview.blogspot.com/search/...ped%20children

This one's interesting too.

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspo...rch/label/FLDS

[lotty]

Originally posted by grammybear [*]Do we even know why the judge did not sign the orders for the kids to go back home with their parents? I have heard a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. My understanding was that the parents were in agreement with CPS and would sign whatever so they could get their kids back. But I have not heard of any thing else.

If you hear anything please let me know.

jmoo [/*]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6176782
FLDS kids coming home?Sunday, June 01, 2008 | 10:35 PM
The judge said the order would have to be signed by all the mothers who sued to get their children back before she would sign off on it. Attorneys argued that would be difficult because they are scattered across the state.

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear [*]Do we even know why the judge did not sign the orders for the kids to go back home with their parents? I have heard a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. My understanding was that the parents were in agreement with CPS and would sign whatever so they could get their kids back. But I have not heard of any thing else.

If you hear anything please let me know.

jmoo [/*]

This also talks a little about what happened at court on Friday.

Texas judge to mull plans for returning polygamous sect's children
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9447243

This thing is driving me batty. I just want some resolution for these kids.

If it is affecting me this much, I can only imagine how it's affecting those involved.

[evalles]

Originally posted by grammybear [*]Do we even know why the judge did not sign the orders for the kids to go back home with their parents? I have heard a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. My understanding was that the parents were in agreement with CPS and would sign whatever so they could get their kids back. But I have not heard of any thing else.

If you hear anything please let me know.

jmoo [/*]

I read that CPS and FLDS had come to an agreement and the judge shot it down, and proposed a very different plan.
If this is the case, isn't that -- wierd ? Wouldn't the state's attorneys present a plan and the judge would decide to approve it or not ?

IMO, this judge will never be able to make fair decisions in this case.

[evalles]

Saw this on another site.

Breaking News: Texas judge today signed an order allowing more than 440 children seized from a polygamist sect to be returned to their parents.

[evalles]

CNN just said that all 450+ children are going home !!

[evalles]

They can start picking them up at 10 AM.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun...ng-home-today/

[evalles]

Here's the signed order.
I haven't read it yet.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/flds0602.pdf

[VC2]

what a fiasco.

no one charged, kids removed and now have to be returned.

[evalles]

I thought there were a few underage girls that were determined to have been abused.
Are they going home too ?

Based on the order, it looks like it.

[BorderCollieMom]

How in the world is all that info on the kids & parents/legal gaurdians/etc. going to come up with all of theat information that has to be filled out on that form ?

Does the habitats on the ranch even have a phone in each one ?

I see an even BIGGER mess coming. But, at least, there are things being continued on with....

Texas isnt just dumping them all off at the front gate.

[evalles]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]evalles - I thought all those girls were cleared? All were over age, except the one who was a minor but they determined she actually wasn't pregnant? I don't think they had a single girl who was currently pregnant and underage, although they had a couple who had toddlers that they thought possibly had gotten pregnant under 16 years but that was undetermined. [/*]

I must not be up to date on the numbers.
What about the girl that was in the pictures with Jeff's ?
I heard she was in custody.
I also read somewhere that she was actually examined and was a virgin.
I know I read it, but don't remember where, might not have been legit.

[evalles]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]BCM - I don't think they have to have a separate individual phone number for each person - just a phone number where that person can be reached. Could be one single phone number, I would think.

I would think the mothers would have all that information off the top of their heads, like we all do. Where they live, their baby's birth date, etc. [/*]

It looked like they all had cell phones

[BorderCollieMom]

I just caught a short conference LIVE on Fox...the people (attorneys?) are saying its going to take a couple of days to get everything together.

I may be way behing on the news....I understood that some of the kids bio's couldnt be determined yet. . and some other unknowns...anyways, thats why I questioned how on earth they would be able to supply all of the info that the court is asking for.

[witchy1]

I just read the signed order of the court and it really isn't that hard of an order to follow. Seems like everyone will benefit from the collective agreement of all adults involved, meaning parents and CPS. That way CPS are allowed in to monitor and see first hand how the children are being raised. Also, I just love the part where no child can be sent away to live somewhere other than where they are stated to live in the address listed for them. Nice touch, IMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by witchy1 [*]I just read the signed order of the court and it really isn't that hard of an order to follow. Seems like everyone will benefit from the collective agreement of all adults involved, meaning parents and CPS. That way CPS are allowed in to monitor and see first hand how the children are being raised. Also, I just love the part where no child can be sent away to live somewhere other than where they are stated to live in the address listed for them. Nice touch, IMO [/*]

That won't be permanent.

[Carol25]

So, from what I understand, the adults are going around and picking up children they claim are theirs and moving to houses the they claim they have rented around Amarillo or back to the ranch. They can go where ever they want up to 100 miles from their homes, where ever they are without permission from the court and the have to promise to go to parenting classes. And they have to be open to CPS visiting them at the addresses they have provided.

The court is depending on the truthfulness of the FLDS members for picking up their own childrn, providing the correct address and not fleeing. From the cult who is known for Lying for the Lord.
Amazing.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]So, from what I understand, the adults are going around and picking up children they claim are theirs and moving to houses the they claim they have rented around Amarillo or back to the ranch. They can go where ever they want up to 100 miles from their homes, where ever they are without permission from the court and the have to promise to go to parenting classes. And they have to be open to CPS visiting them at the addresses they have provided.

The court is depending on the truthfulness of the FLDS members for picking up their own childrn, providing the correct address and not fleeing. From the cult who is known for Lying for the Lord.
Amazing. [/*]

Like the state lied to justify taking all the children.
The state isn't known for their trustworthiness either.

They haven't been charged with anything, why shouldn't they be able to go where they want ?

It sounds like you think they should be treated as criminals.
If they violate the order, they'll be charged.
You know what ?
These children don't belong to the state. They have parents.
What about love ? Do you think that CPS loves these kids ?

You want an awful lot of restrictions placed on the them, even after the higher courts said they shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
Then, the parties responsible for the illegal removal should still be in charge ?

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
The court is depending on the truthfulness of the FLDS members for picking up their own childrn, providing the correct address and not fleeing. From the cult who is known for Lying for the Lord.
Amazing. [/*]

I think the FLDS members will have a much harder time now if they want to lie about where any of the children are or who they live with. Although I'm not sure how an address is quite as useful if it is just 'the ranch'. Unfortunately, all this took place before they could determine through DNA what children really belong to what parents. From the brief amount I have read this morning, it sounds as if the rest of the investigation is still underway and the criminal investigation is taking place on it's own as well as continued CPS involvement.

[witchy1]

Originally posted by spirit07 [*]

I think the FLDS members will have a much harder time now if they want to lie about where any of the children are or who they live with. Although I'm not sure how an address is quite as useful if it is just 'the ranch'. Unfortunately, all this took place before they could determine through DNA what children really belong to what parents. From the brief amount I have read this morning, it sounds as if the rest of the investigation is still underway and the criminal investigation is taking place on it's own as well as continued CPS involvement. [/*]

ITA it will be harder for them to lie and hide children or reassign them, as the FLDS calls it.
Also, IIRC, I heard/ read that the resident address would have to apply to any building, home, shed, etc. where they live.

[evalles]

In spite of all the restrictions, all that's important is that they're going home.

[evalles]

Flora Jessop mentioned the other evening that she is concerned that what the children face going back is far worse than what they've already been through. She expressed concern that many of the children wouldn't be able to withstand what would occur.


***** Was that the interview she did in the budweiser t-shirt ?

Or the one where she was flipping her hair while lighting a cigarette ?

She left 20 years ago, I don't know how she became such an "expert" on Warren Jeffs and the Texas ranch, considering she's never been there.

[witchy1]

It will be an eye-opening revelation to these parents when they are taking the parenting classes that there are different ways than what the church taught them. What I hope is they seize onto this and determine that they were taught wrongly by the most perfect of men, their Prophet, Warren Jeffs.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles [*]


***** Was that the interview she did in the budweiser t-shirt ?

Or the one where she was flipping her hair while lighting a cigarette ?

[/*]

How is her veracity elevated or denigrated based on what clothing she was wearing?

Would she be more truthful if she didn't flip her hair? Would there be more truth to her comments if she wasn't smoking?

I honestly don't get what possible difference ANY of those things could be when it comes to making a determination on whether or not her concerns are valid. Since you do, I surely wish you would enlighten the rest of us about it.

[Roux]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]Imperfect, I have a really hard time thinking any of those children got a positive view of the world outside.

Their fears have been confirmed in spades - that the outside world is a foreboding, terrifying place with no soul or heart.

Ripping little children from their mother's arms - I would think these kids will be MORE afraid than they were before of the rest of us - and none will have gotten enough of a "taste" to want to have anything whatsoever to do with anyone outside the ranch ever again. Only in their nightmares. [/*]

You have to got to be kidding. Do you think the people, the group homes that have been taking care of these children are foreboding, terrifying places with no soul or heart? How about the huge outpouring of linens, furniture, clothes, etc. that the communities have donated? We've had several requests in our church bulletin and people have been exceedingly generous. How about the individuals who have tried to understand and help these children? Neither you nor evalles can convince me that the people who have been taking care of these children for the past several weeks have been mean, cruel, or uncaring. In fact, they've gone out of their way to accommodate the children's beliefs and trepidations. Oh, excuse me, with the exception of not letting them have uncle warren's picture and tapes.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by witchy1 [*]It will be an eye-opening revelation to these parents when they are taking the parenting classes that there are different ways than what the church taught them. What I hope is they seize onto this and determine that they were taught wrongly by the most perfect of men, their Prophet, Warren Jeffs. [/*]

You are far more hopeful about it than I am.

They have been raised from birth to view the outside world as akin to hell populated with demons. They have pounded into them - 24/7 that any beliefs and/or practices OTHER than what is approved of by their prophet are from Satan.

Their choice tomorrow is the same as their choice today. Believe & follow the FLDS & you will be rewarded in heaven. Anything else & you are going straight to h#ll. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]Imperfect, I have a really hard time thinking any of those children got a positive view of the world outside.

Their fears have been confirmed in spades - that the outside world is a foreboding, terrifying place with no soul or heart.

Ripping little children from their mother's arms - I would think these kids will be MORE afraid than they were before of the rest of us - and none will have gotten enough of a "taste" to want to have anything whatsoever to do with anyone outside the ranch ever again. Only in their nightmares. [/*]

I don't know what view the children, especially the older children, got of the outside world - but I DO KNOW that in a society such as the FLDS you can bet your bottom dollar that once they are back in the fold there will be adults who will make it their top priority - EVERY DAY - to make sure that their memories are negative.

That is the way ALL fundamentalist, restrictive cults operate. On fear. On instilling paranoia. On making sure, every minute of the day & night that the followers get & stay obedient. It isn't limited to the FLDS & it has been documented for many, many years by people who have made it their life's work to study & understand the dynamics of religious cults & how they keep members tied to them.

It is not a benevolent society full of loving adults living a simple life & sheltering children from the negative influences of 21st century life in America. It is restrictive & controlling & punishing to those who do not toe the line.

When the Manson girls all showed up with the same shaved heads & spouting the same rhetoric whether they were inside or outside of jail, people had few problems comprehending just how controlled they were. And that is exactly what I remember when I see the FLDS women in identical clothing, nearly identical hairstyles, spouting identical lies.

JMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by Mimi428 [*]

How is her veracity elevated or denigrated based on what clothing she was wearing?

Would she be more truthful if she didn't flip her hair? Would there be more truth to her comments if she wasn't smoking?

I honestly don't get what possible difference ANY of those things could be when it comes to making a determination on whether or not her concerns are valid. Since you do, I surely wish you would enlighten the rest of us about it. [/*]

I think it's tacky. If she's like that on TV, it's probably 10 times worse when she's not.

Come on, would you do a TV interview in a Budweiser shirt, especially when you're supposed to be a spokesperson for abused kids ?

[Roux]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]

Roux, I don't know about the foster care providers. They can be the nicest people on the planet, or in fact, heartless. My guess is most of these care providers were the cream of the crop.

That doesn't make up for being snatched from a crying mother and separated from family. It doesn't make up for it, no matter how nice the home was.

It's a terrifying ordeal for a child to go through. You can't make up for that by smiling and being nice to them and giving them sheets. I see severe psychiatric and adjustment problems coming for these kids - similar to kids who have been through a war trauma. [/*]

Well, I'm not a professional, only a mother and grandmother and as previously posted I have NEVER had any experience whatsoever with CPS. I do believe, however, that children are resilient. This has not been an extended separation, mothers were allowed to visit and call...I would think that they would have been encouraging the children and not making it worse by crying in front of them. This is no where near the equivalent of war trauma. If there's any severe psychiatric problems, IMO, it's the boys that I have seen who were rejected by their FLDS families.

[walton]

Tacky? lol

I guess I choose tacky if it means a person is trying their hardest at trying to protect people over a preacher man in a suit chanting "Keep Sweet" and hightailing it to the third floor bed. jmo

If Flora calms her nerves by having a smoke so be it. Bet she hasn't held any babies down to keep them quiet.

If Flora is wearing a Budweiser shirt or a Miller light hat it doesn't change the message she has been trying to send out. Flora is just Flora. Love her or hate her she has done an awful lot to bring awareness to a culture left behind.


The chanting Preacher man the "Prophet" isn't dressed up to Church code either. Orange jumpsuit and a pair of flip flops but he is still preaching and they are still listening.

I will take Flora any ol' day. jmo

[Haz]

Originally posted by Mimi428 [*]


I don't know what view the children, especially the older children, got of the outside world - but I DO KNOW that in a society such as the FLDS you can bet your bottom dollar that once they are back in the fold there will be adults who will make it their top priority - EVERY DAY - to make sure that their memories are negative.

That is the way ALL fundamentalist, restrictive cults operate. On fear. On instilling paranoia. On making sure, every minute of the day & night that the followers get & stay obedient. It isn't limited to the FLDS & it has been documented for many, many years by people who have made it their life's work to study & understand the dynamics of religious cults & how they keep members tied to them.

It is not a benevolent society full of loving adults living a simple life & sheltering children from the negative influences of 21st century life in America. It is restrictive & controlling & punishing to those who do not toe the line.

When the Manson girls all showed up with the same shaved heads & spouting the same rhetoric whether they were inside or outside of jail, people had few problems comprehending just how controlled they were. And that is exactly what I remember when I see the FLDS women in identical clothing, nearly identical hairstyles, spouting identical lies.

JMO [/*]

Great post Mimi...Most intelligent people can see this to be true.

To those spouting about the trauma to the children--If there is trauma you can blame it on the sect. If they weren't such sick puppies to begin with none of this would have happened in the first place. Put the blame where it belongs. IMO

[Haz]

I'll probably get in trouble for saying this but these posters who constantly condone the actions of this sect make me . They believe every word from the sickies but nothing said by anyone else. Not even the ones who have lived it. Not even the ones who have been thrown out-both men and boys. Not anyone but the head pervert and his followers.

I don't post much because I feel very strongly about child abuse of any kind. I am a victim of sexual abuse from my brother and my parents let it go-made him move out of the house but did nothing else- and I have to live with the memories of it to this day. I kept it from everyone else until he and my mother died one month apart. Then I told the rest of the family. They were not surprised because he was the "only son". Us 4 girls were never as important as he was. I hope he is rotting in h*ll.

[walton]

Originally posted by Imperfect [*]

Wow. More disrespect?

And for a person who knows more than you or I will ever know about what really happens behind the closed society of the FLDS? For a woman who's reaching out to help others in similar circumstances?

Over a t-shirt? Wow.

I honestly don't know what I'd wear - on TV or anyplace else - if I was Flora Jessop. I doubt I'd be much concerned about it, to tell you the truth.

As I've said, Evalles, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

... for Flora [/*]

Flora has had a tough life some of it brought on by her own doing. But I can honestly say I don't know how I or anyone I know would act if they were to be molested by her father and a future of more of the same. Sometimes a person can never look forward if they are always having to look back. jmo

Sometimes a person can never ever right a wrong but I gotta give those credit for trying.

Polygamy is rarely ever about consenting adults. It might start out that way but when they start bringing children into the picture the party should be over.

Religion should never ever be the reason or excuse to practice child abuse.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Haz [*]I'll probably get in trouble for saying this but these posters who constantly condone the actions of this sect make me . They believe every word from the sickies but nothing said by anyone else. Not even the ones who have lived it. Not even the ones who have been thrown out-both men and boys. Not anyone but the head pervert and his followers.

I don't post much because I feel very strongly about child abuse of any kind. I am a victim of sexual abuse from my brother and my parents let it go-made him move out of the house but did nothing else- and I have to live with the memories of it to this day. I kept it from everyone else until he and my mother died one month apart. Then I told the rest of the family. They were not surprised because he was the "only son". Us 4 girls were never as important as he was. I hope he is rotting in h*ll. [/*]

As for your brother, I hope he is too.

Originally posted by witchy1 [*]

ITA it will be harder for them to lie and hide children or reassign them, as the FLDS calls it.
Also, IIRC, I heard/ read that the resident address would have to apply to any building, home, shed, etc. where they live. [/*]

I'm hoping they have a schematic of the compound living quarters at least and the rooms they occupy have to be marked - many/most/all of them share living rooms, kitchens, laundry (not sure about bathrooms).

[Haz]

Originally posted by evalles [*]


As for your brother, I hope he is too. [/*]

Thank You...I was 14 then-I'm 66 now. It is something a person never forgets. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy-if I had an enemy. It affects every part of your life in one way or another.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Haz [*]

Thank You...I was 14 then-I'm 66 now. It is something a person never forgets. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy-if I had an enemy. It affects every part of your life in one way or another. [/*]

My half brother molested my sister when she was small, she's had lifelong mental issues. He went on to molest 4 out of 7 of his own children. Sick #!#!. I probably won't go to his funeral, I'm afraid I'll start cheering. Hopefully he'll have a chance to meet your brother.

Sorry to say this, but your parents way of handling it had to have made the suffering 10 times worse.
I think it would be easier to heal with family support, which is why incest is so damaging.

[witchy1]

have you read this yet?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/...sts/index.html