Roselle IL. another family man kills self and family

[Amy S.]

Another inexplicable, senseless mass murder of wife, child and then himself. It leaves his parents stunned.

Evidently, he had grown children, too.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/97...053008.article

[VC2]

Originally posted by grammybear [*]It is sad that everyday we hear about another person being killed. Whatever was going on in this man's life, he had no right to take away the life of his wife and son. I think that most of the time when someone does this to their family it is pure selfishness and greed.
I pray the families get answers for such a horrible act.

jmoo [/*]

of course he did not have the right.. however i don't agree its pure selfishness and greed most of the time. yes a few times, but the majority its a desperation with no ability to differentiate bw their own sense of "responsibility" and the fact their family can make it and be on their own... not that they aren't strong or smart but they are so focused or have been on taking care of their family, the sick illness they have says if they aren't able to ( bc he has failed) then the only option is to kill themselves and their faimily. Unable to recognize that his failure will not destroy his loved ones..that they can go on.

its a nuance, and a sick one, but it is a reason if that makes sense. In their mind its compassionate.

[annalyzer]

I'd like to hear this 911 call if anyone can find a link to it.

[Santa'sMom]

Originally posted by VC2 [*]

of course he did not have the right.. however i don't agree its pure selfishness and greed most of the time. yes a few times, but the majority its a desperation with no ability to differentiate bw their own sense of "responsibility" and the fact their family can make it and be on their own... not that they aren't strong or smart but they are so focused or have been on taking care of their family, the sick illness they have says if they aren't able to ( bc he has failed) then the only option is to kill themselves and their faimily. Unable to recognize that his failure will not destroy his loved ones..that they can go on.

its a nuance, and a sick one, but it is a reason if that makes sense. In their mind its compassionate. [/*]

Thank you for your post VC2. It was very well written and really gets to the heart of the matter. I don't like to admit it but I have been in the position where I had to decide if I could "take my children with me" and kill myself. Fortunately, I realized that I couldn't kill them and I couldn't leave them alone by killing myself and, eventually, things began to work out and now I'm very greatful that I couldn't do it. I can understand the inner turmoil though. Yes, there is help out there, but when you are at the bottom of a depressive episode, you don't have the ability to think far enough to look for help (and people do not come out to offer it freely, you have to look for it), nor do you have the energy required to do so. People are complex creatures. So often we judge others without taking the time to try to figure out what was going on in their lives at that time. I, too, am not excusing the action, but I can understand what could make it happen.

[Amy S.]

It just seems that in every case, the children are just precious.

Maybe there was more to his not wanting to start another family, than has been disclosed.

I wonder if the 1st wife is around?

I found it strange that the family would state that "he never touched" his present wife. You really can't know what goes on in someone's home. Sometimes the most perfect looking are really disfunctional.

I certainly feel bad for his elderly parents.

[Amy S.]

I need to add my condolences to her mother. She is the one that discovered this carnage.

Here is the principal on YouTube. Nothing new, though.

http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/darien...murder-suicide

Originally posted by Amy S. [*]It just seems that in every case, the children are just precious.

Maybe there was more to his not wanting to start another family, than has been disclosed.

I wonder if the 1st wife is around?

I found it strange that the family would state that "he never touched" his present wife. You really can't know what goes on in someone's home. Sometimes the most perfect looking are really disfunctional.

I certainly feel bad for his elderly parents. [/*]

I just can't get over women who have kids when the husband doesn't want them, and then they complain that they're raising them alone. Of course, I don't know if that's what happened here, and it certainly doesn't mean anyone deserved this.

If the first wife is living, it would be interesting to know what their relationship was like, as well as what his relationship was with his older children.

Originally posted by Amy S. [*]It just seems that in every case, the children are just precious.

Maybe there was more to his not wanting to start another family, than has been disclosed.

I wonder if the 1st wife is around?

I found it strange that the family would state that "he never touched" his present wife. You really can't know what goes on in someone's home. Sometimes the most perfect looking are really disfunctional.

I certainly feel bad for his elderly parents. [/*]

I agree. Domestic abusers cover themselves very well. "He's such a wonderful guy." I can't tell you how many times I heard that, in various situations in which I was the confidant of the abused.

Originally posted by sardoodledom [*]

I just can't get over women who have kids when the husband doesn't want them, and then they complain that they're raising them alone. Of course, I don't know if that's what happened here, and it certainly doesn't mean anyone deserved this.

If the first wife is living, it would be interesting to know what their relationship was like, as well as what his relationship was with his older children. [/*]

Imo, having children should have been discussed before the marriage. Many people who feel they need to have children don't marry that one. They could have continued to date anyway. She could have shopped around a bit.

I'm not blaming the victim, and we don't really know what happened yet, but it seems to me there was something else there, as well.

[Alibar]

Such horror stories always remind me of my early years as a young married mother of two darling babies, who are now adults for many years, but, back when they were under five, my then husband told me of his fears. Somehow the fear had planted itself into his mind and he could not erase it. The fear that he would kill us, his family. The family he loved. He feared he would do it although he did not want to, but, somehow would be unable to stop himself.

Soon, referred by our family physician, he was being treated by a psychiatrist and eventually diagnosed with an anxiety psychosis and while all the electric shock treatments failed to totally wipe the grisly thoughts from his mind, there was improvement.

His doctor promised me my mate would never go through with the fears. I stayed with him and made sure the children never knew what worried their father.

I suppose what I'm getting at is had all this happened in 2008, I probably would not have stayed, but, I also know the treatment would have been better. But, he may not have told me. There are many buts and maybes. He died in his 30s from a heart ailment which appeared a year prior to his last.

There is no way of knowing how long the notion to commit such crimes is in someone's head, or what put it there.

Originally posted by Alibar [*]Such horror stories always remind me of my early years as a young married mother of two darling babies, who are now adults for many years, but, back when they were under five, my then husband told me of his fears. Somehow the fear had planted itself into his mind and he could not erase it. The fear that he would kill us, his family. The family he loved. He feared he would do it although he did not want to, but, somehow would be unable to stop himself.

Soon, referred by our family physician, he was being treated by a psychiatrist and eventually diagnosed with an anxiety psychosis and while all the electric shock treatments failed to totally wipe the grisly thoughts from his mind, there was improvement.

His doctor promised me my mate would never go through with the fears. I stayed with him and made sure the children never knew what worried their father.

I suppose what I'm getting at is had all this happened in 2008, I probably would not have stayed, but, I also know the treatment would have been better. But, he may not have told me. There are many buts and maybes. He died in his 30s from a heart ailment which appeared a year prior to his last.

There is no way of knowing how long the notion to commit such crimes is in someone's head, or what put it there. [/*]

That's scary. Didn't Andrea Yates tell Rusty she was going to hurt the children?

[LisaM22]

I wonder why some suicidal people can kill their family and then decide they want to live after and some don't -seems that once you killed your family, you would definitely not want to live yourself, especially if you claimed to love them, jmho

Originally posted by Alibar [*]Such horror stories always remind me of my early years as a young married mother of two darling babies, who are now adults for many years, but, back when they were under five, my then husband told me of his fears. Somehow the fear had planted itself into his mind and he could not erase it. The fear that he would kill us, his family. The family he loved. He feared he would do it although he did not want to, but, somehow would be unable to stop himself.

Soon, referred by our family physician, he was being treated by a psychiatrist and eventually diagnosed with an anxiety psychosis and while all the electric shock treatments failed to totally wipe the grisly thoughts from his mind, there was improvement.

His doctor promised me my mate would never go through with the fears. I stayed with him and made sure the children never knew what worried their father.

I suppose what I'm getting at is had all this happened in 2008, I probably would not have stayed, but, I also know the treatment would have been better. But, he may not have told me. There are many buts and maybes. He died in his 30s from a heart ailment which appeared a year prior to his last.

There is no way of knowing how long the notion to commit such crimes is in someone's head, or what put it there. [/*]

This kind of thing is not uncommon in women who have just given birth, and is a variant of obsessive-compulsive disorder. The difference here is that your husband did not want to harm you, and that he communicated his fear to you.

(hug smiley).

Originally posted by wandering [*]Imo, having children should have been discussed before the marriage. Many people who feel they need to have children don't marry that one. They could have continued to date anyway. She could have shopped around a bit.

I'm not blaming the victim, and we don't really know what happened yet, but it seems to me there was something else there, as well. [/*]

People I have known who work in family law and counseling have said that the number of people who never discuss having children prior to the wedding would blow your mind.

I know a woman who's getting divorced with 3 kids, and they dated for four years before they married and never talked about it. How people can go on four dates and not discuss this blows me away, but that's what happened.

Originally posted by LisaM22 [*]I wonder why some suicidal people can kill their family and then decide they want to live after and some don't -seems that once you killed your family, you would definitely not want to live yourself, especially if you claimed to love them, jmho [/*]

They're cowards. They see how much their victims suffered, and they're horrified. They don't want to do it to themselves.

John List never had any suicidal thoughts. He just wanted to erase his mistakes, and start over.

Originally posted by sardoodledom [*]

People I have known who work in family law and counseling have said that the number of people who never discuss having children prior to the wedding would blow your mind.

I know a woman who's getting divorced with 3 kids, and they dated for four years before they married and never talked about it. How people can go on four dates and not discuss this blows me away, but that's what happened. [/*]

I think there are a lot of assumptions in relationships. For example, you assign all the wonderful attributes you want into this person you think you love. That's not realistic. No one wants to admit they're looking through rose-colored glasses, or have poor judgement. They must be wonderful, if you love them.

[Alibar]

Originally posted by LisaM22 [*]I wonder why some suicidal people can kill their family and then decide they want to live after and some don't -seems that once you killed your family, you would definitely not want to live yourself, especially if you claimed to love them, jmho [/*]

I've wondered the same. Especially, how the murderer can go to trial and claim not guilty, when there is no way they didn't do it. I have such contempt for people such as Mark Jensen and I'm sure I will feel same toward the weasel Neil E.

[Annie143]

This is another really sad one. That little boy didnt deserve to have his life ended and certainly not by his own father.

I agree that she should have made a better choice as far as wanting children and he did not....... but, she shoudnt have to pay for this decision with her and her childs life.

He was a lily livered coward, regardless of what his problems were. He took their lives and then fiddled around before he offed himself. He didnt want to die but didnt know how to get out of the mess he had made, I think......

What a precious little boy and so smart. Heartbreaking.

Joe

[nanabillie]

Just last night on the news they were telling of a murder-suicide by husband. Then they said people didn't understand, there had never been any charges of abuse. Police had never received any reports. That proves nothing. Believe me! Thirty years ago you seldom heard of a wife calling the police because they were hit.
You probably asked for it. You know, it was your fault.
I'm glad that some women are getting help. Far too many are still being killed.

[LisaM22]

Originally posted by nanabillie [*]Just last night on the news they were telling of a murder-suicide by husband. Then they said people didn't understand, there had never been any charges of abuse. Police had never received any reports. That proves nothing. Believe me! Thirty years ago you seldom heard of a wife calling the police because they were hit.
You probably asked for it. You know, it was your fault.
I'm glad that some women are getting help. Far too many are still being killed.
[/*]

sometimes there is no abuse, look at Andrea yates, she never abused her spouse or children, she had been planing it in her mind for years, but no abuse, then one day, she did it, then of course decided she could not kill herself - she wasn't that crazy, just crazy enough to kill the children - jmho

Originally posted by VC2 [*]

of course he did not have the right.. however i don't agree its pure selfishness and greed most of the time. yes a few times, but the majority its a desperation with no ability to differentiate bw their own sense of "responsibility" and the fact their family can make it and be on their own... not that they aren't strong or smart but they are so focused or have been on taking care of their family, the sick illness they have says if they aren't able to ( bc he has failed) then the only option is to kill themselves and their faimily. Unable to recognize that his failure will not destroy his loved ones..that they can go on.

its a nuance, and a sick one, but it is a reason if that makes sense. In their mind its compassionate. [/*]

I wish you would post this over on the Neil Entwhistle thread as well, because IMO its very appropriate in that case also.

[LisaM22]

Originally posted by Alibar [*]Such horror stories always remind me of my early years as a young married mother of two darling babies, who are now adults for many years, but, back when they were under five, my then husband told me of his fears. Somehow the fear had planted itself into his mind and he could not erase it. The fear that he would kill us, his family. The family he loved. He feared he would do it although he did not want to, but, somehow would be unable to stop himself.

Soon, referred by our family physician, he was being treated by a psychiatrist and eventually diagnosed with an anxiety psychosis and while all the electric shock treatments failed to totally wipe the grisly thoughts from his mind, there was improvement.

His doctor promised me my mate would never go through with the fears. I stayed with him and made sure the children never knew what worried their father.

I suppose what I'm getting at is had all this happened in 2008, I probably would not have stayed, but, I also know the treatment would have been better. But, he may not have told me. There are many buts and maybes. He died in his 30s from a heart ailment which appeared a year prior to his last.

There is no way of knowing how long the notion to commit such crimes is in someone's head, or what put it there. [/*]

I agree, and many times the thoughts can be there and nothing bad ever happens, in fact I would guess that is most of the time with people that think thoughts like that, very few actually do it - your lucky, in this day and age, some people would of blamed you had something happened - jmho

[LisaM22]

Originally posted by VC2 [*]

of course he did not have the right.. however i don't agree its pure selfishness and greed most of the time. yes a few times, but the majority its a desperation with no ability to differentiate bw their own sense of "responsibility" and the fact their family can make it and be on their own... not that they aren't strong or smart but they are so focused or have been on taking care of their family, the sick illness they have says if they aren't able to ( bc he has failed) then the only option is to kill themselves and their faimily. Unable to recognize that his failure will not destroy his loved ones..that they can go on.

its a nuance, and a sick one, but it is a reason if that makes sense. In their mind its compassionate. [/*]

I agree, that seems to be why many do it, they want to kill themselves, but do not think the children could live without them and want to spare them that pain - the pain of living a life they feel is not worth living and will only bring them the same pain - jmho

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by VC2 [*]

of course he did not have the right.. however i don't agree its pure selfishness and greed most of the time. yes a few times, but the majority its a desperation with no ability to differentiate bw their own sense of "responsibility" and the fact their family can make it and be on their own... not that they aren't strong or smart but they are so focused or have been on taking care of their family, the sick illness they have says if they aren't able to ( bc he has failed) then the only option is to kill themselves and their family. Unable to recognize that his failure will not destroy his loved ones..that they can go on.

its a nuance, and a sick one, but it is a reason if that makes sense. In their mind its compassionate. [/*]

I agree VC.

I think many cases like these that are committed by the father are for the same deluded reasons we see mothers do it.

No matter if we struggle to understand this illogical thinking I think when something like this happens where they all are killed by murder/suicide then there is utter depression and desperation. What they see is not reality but it is their reality.

I think fathers have been dismissed as not having any deep emotional bonds toward his children when I just don't believe that for one second. I can't count the children I have known throughout my life that were so bonded to their fathers and the fathers to them. I do not know the reason this particular case happened but many times it seems to be spurred on by either a chance that there was unrest in the marriage and a divorce was imminent or a foreboding that the father was having financial difficulties and felt he could not support his family.

I have always understood how a father could become so dismayed at the thought of only becoming a father to his children every other weekend after years of caring for and raising them on a daily basis. I cannot even begin to comprehend as a mother how much pain that would give me to feel I had been pushed so far out of lives that have meant so much. Imo men do these unspeakable acts for the same reasons that females do imo because in their minds they see their children not surviving without them and they kill themselves because they cannot see themselves living without their families.

I have always felt during child custody issues or divorce cases there needs to be counselors for all parties involved so that maybe these anxieties, losses and fears could be detected instead of left to stew in the dark recesses of their minds with no one paying attention until its too late.

I do believe that some do kill to get back at the spouse or ex spouse because they wanted the children with them and not with the other parent but the ones that end with the perpetrator committing suicide too, I do not think that was the motive.



imoo

[Amy S.]

Does anyone know what the father had done for a living?

He was a vietnam vet and I expect that many of the men from that era, still have demons inside them from the war.

[Alibar]

As a country, we will have hit a new low if military service becomes an excuse for killing one's family.

[VC2]

Originally posted by LisaM22 [*]I wonder why some suicidal people can kill their family and then decide they want to live after and some don't -seems that once you killed your family, you would definitely not want to live yourself, especially if you claimed to love them, jmho [/*]

there is a difference bw the evil ones (and there are those) who want to live bc they are now rid of their "problems"

and those who commit the act due to an illness, psychosis or just sick thinking and then feel they must be punished by the law. Its weird but its as if they are saying "i felt i had no choice but now i must face the consequences"

You see this a lot in ones where they are going to discovered as embezzlers or they lose their job and career. They feel their family cannot face the scandal they caused (and they cant face their family) and that its kinder to kill them before it becomes public knowledge. They believe if they kill themselves then that is the cowardly thing to do.

imo the act of killing your wife and children is evil. The motivations behind it are different in the cases though. Some are pure evil and selfishness..get a life free of the ball and chain of responsibilities, others love their family to the point of sickness.

It reminds me of people who put pets down becayse the owner is seriously ill or dying. I know more than one who has said their "fluffy" will never be happy without her.

[Amy S.]

Of course, I would have no idea if mililtary service had anything to do with this killing, but I think that there are statistics out about current military men that have returned from Iraq and killed their wives.

I have nothing against military service at all.

Originally posted by Alibar [*]As a country, we will have hit a new low if military service becomes an excuse for killing one's family. [/*]

I once brought this up in another thread and got flamed for it.

[LisaM22]

Originally posted by Alibar [*]As a country, we will have hit a new low if military service becomes an excuse for killing one's family. [/*]

\

PTSD I think is what it is called, I am sure it is as abused as the PPD excuse - jmho

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Alibar [*]As a country, we will have hit a new low if military service becomes an excuse for killing one's family. [/*]

Maybe I am not understanding you. Where did it say because he was in the military many years ago this is why he killed his family?
And what would be the difference? Military men and women can't be insane? Sure makes as much sense as it does when the first excuse given many times when a mother murders all of her children is she must have been insane.

I would certainly think those who have been in horrific wars feeling like they have been in Hell on Earth most assuredly could have mental problems arising from it.

Unless he is proven to be legally insane then there should be no excuses at all and no excuses for anyone else for that matter to kill someone unless it was in true self defense.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Amy S. [*]Of course, I would have no idea if military service had anything to do with this killing, but I think that there are statistics out about current military men that have returned from Iraq and killed their wives.

I have nothing against military service at all. [/*]

I tell ya Amy I will take my chances on the military any day. On CNN not too long ago they discussed this and in five years 127 military personnel have killed someone (not just wives) since they returned from Iraq/Afghanistan and their total workforce is vast in number.

Now lets take the regular population at large where most of us are and live and work ..........how many murders are committed yearly alone.......let alone a 5 year collection of victims? Thousands upon thousands. About 1400 men murder their spouses or SO yearly and about 500 women murder their husbands or SO yearly and that doesn't even begin to cover all the other murders that happen for various reasons either.

I have no idea why this happened or if it even had anything to do with mental issues. But since mental illness can affect anyone at anytime, I do not dismiss this possibility may have existed.

imo

[Heidi J.]

Originally posted by LisaM22 [*]

I agree, that seems to be why many do it, they want to kill themselves, but do not think the children could live without them and want to spare them that pain - the pain of living a life they feel is not worth living and will only bring them the same pain - jmho [/*]

Perhaps it wasn't that the father thought the son couldn't live with out him, but that the father couldn't live with out the son. Remember, he has children from another marriage. He may not be as close to them as he was the little one.

[Alibar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]

Maybe I am not understanding you. Where did it say because he was in the military many years ago this is why he killed his family?
And what would be the difference? Military men and women can't be insane? Sure makes as much sense as it does when the first excuse given many times when a mother murders all of her children is she must have been insane.

I would certainly think those who have been in horrific wars feeling like they have been in Hell on Earth most assuredly could have mental problems arising from it.

Unless he is proven to be legally insane then there should be no excuses at all and no excuses for anyone else for that matter to kill someone unless it was in true self defense.

imoo [/*]

You are right. You are not understanding me. Perhaps if you read back and discover what prompted my remark you would have clarity. I cannot comprehend why my statement caused you to go off. I realize there are some situations I don't suffer gladly... (Yes, Winston and I agree on that!)

Originally posted by Amy S. [*]It just seems that in every case, the children are just precious.

Maybe there was more to his not wanting to start another family, than has been disclosed.

I wonder if the 1st wife is around?

I found it strange that the family would state that "he never touched" his present wife.

You really can't know what goes on in someone's home.
Sometimes the most perfect looking are really dysfunctional.

]

Very True!
A Dark-side that the public/outside never sees..

Has anyone noticed how many murders of young women that have occurred in Illinois in the last few years???
Seems to be more than any other state....imo