Daily Thread 5/1 thru 5/6

[LLaFren]

Morning All,

Thought I'd start the daily thread with an article from a former member:

http://www.ajc.com/cobb/content/news...CT_ESCAPE.html

And by the time Kathy Jo Nicholson turned 14, she was sewing her wedding dress, knowing that any day she could be thrown into marriage with a man three times her age.

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]Morning All,

Thought I'd start the daily thread with an article from a former member:

http://www.ajc.com/cobb/content/news...CT_ESCAPE.html

And by the time Kathy Jo Nicholson turned 14, she was sewing her wedding dress, knowing that any day she could be thrown into marriage with a man three times her age. [/*]

I had read this yesterday and also noticed that as a young girl she had a red dress on before it was a sin to wear red.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]Morning All,

Thought I'd start the daily thread with an article from a former member:

http://www.ajc.com/cobb/content/news...CT_ESCAPE.html

And by the time Kathy Jo Nicholson turned 14, she was sewing her wedding dress, knowing that any day she could be thrown into marriage with a man three times her age. [/*]

Good Morning LLaFern

Thanks for the start of the thread and the link. I hope to follow this case closer today.
Cloe

[cloe23]

Originally posted by dsmith [*]

I had read this yesterday and also noticed that as a young girl she had a red dress on before it was a sin to wear red. [/*]

Kathy Jo she sounds as if she has a uniqueness about her.
Having her beliefs disproved by the death of 'the leader' who will never die? and then dieds? I wonder what her faith is today?
The more traditional FLDS?
Cloe

Here's the Nancy Grace transcript, 4/30/08. Brittle bones discussion...


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../30/ng.01.html

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by wandering [*]Here's the Nancy Grace transcript, 4/30/08. Brittle bones discussion...


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../30/ng.01.html [/*]

thanks for posting this wandering. I missed the show last night.

I cannot stomach that D. Hor...

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by snoodles [*]

I have a hard time believing that D Horowitz can even still DEFEND people after what happened to his own wife. [/*]

Me too! We are of the same thought on that snoodles.

Originally posted by KatyDid [*]

Me too! We are of the same thought on that snoodles. [/*]

Me three...

[cuddlyrunner]

The thought of a 14 year old sewing her own wedding dress in case she was suddenly married off to a middle aged man-heartbreaking :-(

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by wandering [*]Here's the Nancy Grace transcript, 4/30/08. Brittle bones discussion...


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../30/ng.01.html [/*]

Thanks for that link, wandering. Much appreciated.

I think Flora Jessop was correct when she said she had never heard of the FLDS having a genetic defect problem that would result in brittle bones.

IMO, anyone suggesting the children have brittle bones & that is the underlying cause of so many fractures is blowing smoke.

[emdragon]

Originally posted by snoodles [*]

I have a hard time believing that D Horowitz can even still DEFEND people after what happened to his own wife. [/*]

He does it because a Defense for EVERYONE is a constitutional right and is what makes our system work. Without them we simply don't have a system.

He does it because it takes a special person to look past the crime and assure that our system works for everyone, even those we may not like or think deserve any rights.

Anyone can be a prosecutor it is easy, everyone is on your side except the criminals.

A defense attorney is a special breed and contrary to what so many people on these boards feel they are the MOST important part of our system and should be admired for doing their duty every day even when faced with disdain and hate.

I respect D.Horowitz even more now than I did before his wife's murder.

There are people who walk the walk and DH is one of them-he believes in the system and he does his job to see that it works.

(I would believe that for emotional reasons he would avoid certain cases. )

[walton]

I saw Nancy's show lastnight and it made me smile. I thought about all of you guys when I was watching it. So I watched it a second time and it made me smile again.

DH imo said what he needed to.

Susan Hays the Texas lawyer is actually imo a good lawyer. She is fighting for what she believes in. I don't think she is one to mess with.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these 300 plus lawyers to try and cram all this in? Lordy, my head is still spinning and I've been following it for awhile.

On the Nancy Grace show they always have a big space on the bottom that announces what is being talked about and a phone number for people to call in. How does that work? The show is already aired how can these people call in? I don't care to call in cuz I can't hear worth a darn anyway and I talk way to much. But I wouldn't mind asking a question or two.

I am thankful that Nancy Grace is a go- getter.

Originally posted by emdragon [*]

He does it because a Defense for EVERYONE is a constitutional right and is what makes our system work. Without them we simply don't have a system.

He does it because it takes a special person to look past the crime and assure that our system works for everyone, even those we may not like or think deserve any rights.

Anyone can be a prosecutor it is easy, everyone is on your side except the criminals.

A defense attorney is a special breed and contrary to what so many people on these boards feel they are the MOST important part of our system and should be admired for doing their duty every day even when faced with disdain and hate.

I respect D.Horowitz even more now than I did before his wife's murder.

There are people who walk the walk and DH is one of them-he believes in the system and he does his job to see that it works.

(I would believe that for emotional reasons he would avoid certain cases. ) [/*]

That doesn't speak to the fact that he took on the Susan Polk case.

[walton]

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....olygamy-s.html

The hourlong film features in-depth interviews with Flora Jessop, who ran away from an FLDS settlement at age 16 and for decades has been an activist helping women and children leave the group. Her relative, Carolyn Jessop, is also interviewed; Carolyn is the author of the current bestseller “Escape,” which tells the story of how she just barely managed to leave a violent, loveless FLDS marriage with her eight children in tow.

This workmanlike documentary is marred by a terribly tinny, cheesy soundtrack and some sloppy, choppy editing (though what I viewed was an rough cut of the episode, so perhaps that’s been remedied). Still, what the Jessop women have to say is fascinating – and frightening.

Flora, Carolyn and others with knowledge of the group say that backbreaking labor is the norm at FLDS compounds (even for children), and physical violence is apparently routine. Carolyn says that her “sister-wives” frequently punished her for her transgressions by beating her children. Her husband, FLDS leader Merril Jessop, made her his fourth wife when she was 18, and throughout her eight pregnancies, she was denounced by other women when she experienced severe nausea and vomiting (this was a sign of her lack of faith, she was told).

a listing of air dates: http://www.wetv.com/shows/secretlive...EP007909200037

Originally posted by walton [*]I saw Nancy's show lastnight and it made me smile. I thought about all of you guys when I was watching it. So I watched it a second time and it made me smile again.

DH imo said what he needed to.

Susan Hays the Texas lawyer is actually imo a good lawyer. She is fighting for what she believes in. I don't think she is one to mess with.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these 300 plus lawyers to try and cram all this in? Lordy, my head is still spinning and I've been following it for awhile.

On the Nancy Grace show they always have a big space on the bottom that announces what is being talked about and a phone number for people to call in. How does that work? The show is already aired how can these people call in? I don't care to call in cuz I can't hear worth a darn anyway and I talk way to much. But I wouldn't mind asking a question or two.

I am thankful that Nancy Grace is a go- getter. [/*]

I've never called in to NG, but most of those call-in shows ask your name and what your question is. Then they choose the good questions, I think.

You have to call in on the first airing, after that it's just a rerun.

Originally posted by walton [*]http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....olygamy-s.html

The hourlong film features in-depth interviews with Flora Jessop, who ran away from an FLDS settlement at age 16 and for decades has been an activist helping women and children leave the group. Her relative, Carolyn Jessop, is also interviewed; Carolyn is the author of the current bestseller “Escape,” which tells the story of how she just barely managed to leave a violent, loveless FLDS marriage with her eight children in tow.

This workmanlike documentary is marred by a terribly tinny, cheesy soundtrack and some sloppy, choppy editing (though what I viewed was an rough cut of the episode, so perhaps that’s been remedied). Still, what the Jessop women have to say is fascinating – and frightening.

Flora, Carolyn and others with knowledge of the group say that backbreaking labor is the norm at FLDS compounds (even for children), and physical violence is apparently routine. Carolyn says that her “sister-wives” frequently punished her for her transgressions by beating her children. Her husband, FLDS leader Merril Jessop, made her his fourth wife when she was 18, and throughout her eight pregnancies, she was denounced by other women when she experienced severe nausea and vomiting (this was a sign of her lack of faith, she was told).

a listing of air dates: http://www.wetv.com/shows/secretlive...EP007909200037 [/*]

Thank you! Looking forward to this.

I wonder if any of the exiled boys are talking...anywhere?

[cloe23]

Originally posted by walton [*]I saw Nancy's show lastnight and it made me smile. I thought about all of you guys when I was watching it. So I watched it a second time and it made me smile again.

DH imo said what he needed to.

Susan Hays the Texas lawyer is actually imo a good lawyer. She is fighting for what she believes in. I don't think she is one to mess with.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these 300 plus lawyers to try and cram all this in? Lordy, my head is still spinning and I've been following it for awhile.

On the Nancy Grace show they always have a big space on the bottom that announces what is being talked about and a phone number for people to call in. How does that work? The show is already aired how can these people call in? I don't care to call in cuz I can't hear worth a darn anyway and I talk way to much. But I wouldn't mind asking a question or two.

I am thankful that Nancy Grace is a go- getter. [/*]

Good read TY
As for these 300 plus lawyers, are they working pro bono?
I admire Nancy Grace's go, go as well.
What are your questions? Do share....Please...
Cloe

I am wondering how closely Warren Jeffs conversations and visitors are being monitored especially now with everything going on.

Originally posted by snoodles [*]

Interesting point. Do you think he is still in control from behind bars? [/*]

Most certainly, imo.

I think so, although he has people carrying out his wishes. That is scary!

[walton]

Originally posted by cloe23 [*]

Good read TY
As for these 300 plus lawyers, are they working pro bono?
I admire Nancy Grace's go, go as well.
What are your questions? Do share....Please...
Cloe [/*]

I think they are donating their time.



If I could ask two questions I would ask 4 and maybe two would get answered. So here are my four.

1. Where is Warren Jeffs? with proof to back it up. I've seen make believe news articles. I've seen someone who kinda looks like Warren being escorted into the courthouse, I've seen articles written that people have visited the jail. But I've not seen anything that shows Warren Jeffs is alive and in jail.

2. Western Precision- NewEra- Utah Tool and Die and Hydropak are a few of the businesses that are tied in with Warren. I wanna know why the U. S. government hasn't stopped doing business with these people.

3. Who is doing the DNA testing and where is it being done?

4. This is a two parter kinda- I would like to know- when a 15 year old girl walks into a Utah Social Service office applies for food stamps for her and her 2 children why someone isn't calling CPS ? and acting upon it.

I would also like to know why Utah and Arizona shout out that they are doing so much to protect these kids that they are handing out sentences such as 45 days.

So who is watching those in the government?


Here are a couple of links concerning those companies:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/po...polygamy9.html

The bottom line: Jeffs worked as an accountant and remained so friendly with his ex-wife's family that for years he did the bookkeeping for one of their businesses. In 1968 he founded Utah Tool & Die Co., which now employs about 70 people and generates $4.8 million in sales annually, according to Dun and Bradstreet, an information-services corporation.

Jeffs was ousted as president of Federated Security Insurance Co. in 1958 after the board of directors discovered he had solicited proxies in his own name in a failed attempt to fire all the directors. At the time, the Salt Lake City-based company had $41 million of insurance policies in force.

Unlikely newsmaker: Though Jeffs has a passion for privacy, his name surfaced in a few news reports after the Jan. 15, 1986, Challenger space-shuttle explosion that killed seven astronauts.

Jeffs was on the board of directors for Hydrapak. The West Jordan firm manufactured the O-ring, which allowed a plume of fiery gas to escape, igniting the shuttle's liquid-fuel tank.

Eight months after the explosion, his name was dropped from incorporation papers. Jeffs' son Wallace, who bought Hydrapak in September 1986, insisted in a telephone interview that he never knew of his father's involvement with the firm.

Lloyd L. Wall, who is Hydrapak's former president, treasurer and director at the time of the Challenger explosion, lives in one of Rulon Jeffs' five Salt Lake County homes, this one described on tax rolls as situated on a half-acre wooded lot, valued at $287,000.

I don't know who owns this blog- http://www.sarahnielson.com/2006/02/...ls-go-to-work/

[spydernweb2006]

Originally posted by asurvivor [*]they can test the children for brittle bones but it is a painful test [/*]

They now use an xray method that I had done to test for Osteoporosis. You lay on your side and the xray sends a beam thru your hip and measures the bone density. Not painful at all and results are immed. The whole procedure takes 15 mins, tops.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by cloe23 [*]

Good read TY
As for these 300 plus lawyers, are they working pro bono?
I admire Nancy Grace's go, go as well.
What are your questions? Do share....Please...
Cloe [/*]

All I have heard about the attorneys is that when the women & children were removed from the ranch, shortly thereafter a note or message was put on the TX state bar website, requesting volunteers. Then I heard about 350 did volunteer. Have not heard anything since then.

Sorry no link, this was all over the TV on every station here shortly after the women & children were first moved.

[tisamystery]

I have total respect for the lawyers who are working for the kids. My issue is whether or not they ARE working for the kids.

Susan Hayes is so defensive, it seems like she's working for the parents. She's taking the position that all of this is an attack on FLDS. I thought her position was supposed to be that her clients (the kids) have possibly been abused. This being the case, shouldn't she be more open-minded? Shouldn't she be as concerned about getting to the bottom of whether or not the kids have been mistreated rather than leaping to the defense of the parents? I think she's lost sight of the mission.

Originally posted by snoodles [*]

OMG, the O-ring? And the government still USES them? That is sickening and it oozes corruption. [/*]

I understood that the 0-ring should have been replaced in routine maintenance. It was worn. IIRC, that equipment had been used 8 times with the same o-ring.

I'm familiar with 0-rings, I use them in my work. I know they don't last long. They should have known that, too. E-gads, in a space shuttle!

[evalles]

Originally posted by tisamystery [*]I have total respect for the lawyers who are working for the kids. My issue is whether or not they ARE working for the kids.

Susan Hayes is so defensive, it seems like she's working for the parents. She's taking the position that all of this is an attack on FLDS. I thought her position was supposed to be that her clients (the kids) have possibly been abused. This being the case, shouldn't she be more open-minded? Shouldn't she be as concerned about getting to the bottom of whether or not the kids have been mistreated rather than leaping to the defense of the parents? I think she's lost sight of the mission. [/*]

Maybe the child she's representing wasn't abused and wants to go home. I get confused, I know a guardian ad-litem is supposed to represent the child's best interests, even if it conflicts w/ the child's wants. Are these attorney's working in the capacities of GAL's ?
I also thought in some cases (I'm not sure which, maybe older kids ?) children have attorneys that will work to get what the child wants. Kinda like if we hired an attorney, in say a custody hearing, we tell him we want sole custody, alimony and child support, he's supposed to try to get us what we want.
I'm not sure though.

[evalles]

I found an article quoting Susan Hays, she seems impressed with her client's father and the compound.
While I'm not fond of CPS, I'm certainly not impressed w/ the FLDS.
She might end up being one of the next wives.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...272114,00.html

FLDS has lotsa $$, they could definitely pay these attorneys under the table.
Isn't Deseret News owned by the FLDS ?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by evalles [*]I found an article quoting Susan Hays, she seems impressed with her client's father and the compound.
While I'm not fond of CPS, I'm certainly not impressed w/ the FLDS.
She might end up being one of the next wives.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...272114,00.html

FLDS has lotsa $$, they could definitely pay these attorneys under the table.
Isn't Deseret News owned by the FLDS ? [/*]

That wasn't Susan Hays, that was a different attorney - Patricia Deveau.

Susan Hays' client is a toddler, I think around 2 years old (can't remember where I read the age, though). I think an attorney making a case for what is best for a 2 year old is going to be in a heck of a different position that an attorney making an argument about what is best for a 12 year old.

JMO

[tisamystery]

It just seems to me that if you represent a child who has been removed from an environment where there are suspicions of abuse you would be anxious to find out if it's true, not fly to the defense of the parents. And that's what is appears Hayes is doing.

[LLaFren]

Ok, I'll start today's thread with this article:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...4818-2,00.html

And this question, where the h e double hockey sticks, are the dads? I've only seen 3 go public (anybody else seen something I missed?)

And as for the young girl who just gave birth, Why isn't she screaming for the dad to be there with her? If my husband hadn't been there for the births of our children, trust me there wouldn't have been any more after the first one

[Carol25]

Originally posted by AnnieBean [*]

I am still reading Carolyn Jessops book. This kid who just delivered is lucky she was even attended to by medical people, if she had been behind the FLDS walls she might have fared much worse. Jessop recounts one lady whose episiotomy was done w/ sewing scissors and she was sewn up with dental floss by the lay midwife they had who attended births. Another womans baby died after she was in labor over 24 hours and the midwife could not get permission from either her husband or the leader to send her to the hospital. Baby died and finally the midwife got consent to send the woman to the ER, before she was dead too. The husband told the wife the babys death was Gods will. Also Jessop says that births care attended by a crowd of people, whoever the husband wants there to include the other wives, in fact its almost a requirement the other wives attend. Of course no screaming and the usual labor scenario is allowed. They are told they must endure the pain and not cry out. I can't even imagine labor without screaming something, and threatening to kill my husband at leat one time during the transition phase...lol..

This kid might have had the best delivery ever, don't 'assume' she wanted the 'husband' there with her.

jmo [/*]

If this wasn't her first child, magine how amazed she was when she got something for the pain! What a difference. She'll never go back to the compound.

Can't imagine havng a baby wth the whole neighborhood there! Yuck!

[LLaFren]

Morning All, I started the new daily thread and PM'd Coldwater to make it a sticky.

See ya there.

LL

[LLaFren]

ouch, your right Annie, I was letting my somewhat normal life experience interfere with what has been done with these girls.

I think (not sure where) I read she was "married" to a 22 year old. Even with a 16-20 month old older child, that would be a "legal" relationship (yes? no?), I'm not saying it was consensual, just legal right?

So why isn't he screaming to see his kid?

I need a flow chart

[walton]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9128855

The U.S. attorney for Utah and the head of the FBI's Salt Lake City field office said Thursday there should be no rush to establish a federal task force on polygamous crimes because existing partnerships already offer cross-agency cooperation.
"What's also lost in this debate is let's not ignore that just announcing a task force doesn't give you probable cause to launch an investigation and it doesn't allow you to ignore constitutional protections," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman.
Tim Fuhrman, the Special Agent in Charge of the FBI's field office in Salt Lake City, said local agencies seem to be satisfied with the efforts so far and a task force won't necessarily solve any problems.






Why?

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by walton


Why? [/*]

because they can

[LLaFren]

Has this been posted somewhere else and I missed it?

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/document...g_for_Zion.pdf

It's the draft copy of how to deal with the kids after they are in foster care.

Sounds like CPS is trying really hard to protect them.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by walton [*]http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9128855

The U.S. attorney for Utah and the head of the FBI's Salt Lake City field office said Thursday there should be no rush to establish a federal task force on polygamous crimes because existing partnerships already offer cross-agency cooperation.
"What's also lost in this debate is let's not ignore that just announcing a task force doesn't give you probable cause to launch an investigation and it doesn't allow you to ignore constitutional protections," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman.
Tim Fuhrman, the Special Agent in Charge of the FBI's field office in Salt Lake City, said local agencies seem to be satisfied with the efforts so far and a task force won't necessarily solve any problems.






Why? [/*]

It was discussed in another case that the FBI can't come into a state and assist or take over an investigation. The have to be asked by the local or state authorties. I don't know if that is the case here or not.

Perhaps with Harry Reid getting involved, it can be a Federal investigation and the feds can come in.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]Has this been posted somewhere else and I missed it?

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/document...g_for_Zion.pdf

It's the draft copy of how to deal with the kids after they are in foster care.

Sounds like CPS is trying really hard to protect them. [/*]

Good morning, LlaFren! The link says "page not found."

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
Good morning, LlaFren! The link says "page not found." [/*]

Dang computers , try this:

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/

and the link to the pdf is on the top right.

Sorry for the confusion

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
If this wasn't her first child, magine how amazed she was when she got something for the pain! What a difference. She'll never go back to the compound.

Can't imagine havng a baby wth the whole neighborhood there! Yuck! [/*]

It wasn't her first, IIRC. This "18 year old" already has a 16 month old baby.