Are the children better with CPS or with their mothers?

[Story]

I saw a poll yesterday where 67% of responders said that the children were better off with their mothers than with CPS (not necessarily at the "ranch" "compound").

What do you think?

[Hey Paula]

I believe the children are much better off with the CPS in this case.

The mothers of these children have been indoctrinated into the polygamist lifestyle, and cannot prevent their children from repeating it and being raped and abused again. If sent back to that environment, most of the children will likely repeat their parents' lifestyle and the abuse of children will continue for generations.

The cycle of abuse needs to stop and cannot and should not be tolerated under the guise of religion.

IMO

[Carol25]

I think the longer they are with CPS the better the chances are of the experiencing some of the necessary developmental needs of children. Play, making choices, experiencing new things forbidden in their world like books, toys things that stimulate theoir minds, even having conversations to begin to socialize properly.

Wouldn't it be nice to see these children laugh? They have never been introduced to "make believe". They've never seen a book where animals talk, or a little engine that says "I think I can". One of the parts of intelligence is humor where they can distinguish between absurd and reality.

We all noticed that the women are so literal and flat. They have never had the opportunity to make a choice that something is real, make believe , right or wrong, causes and effects, or allow anyone to learn and interpret the world, it's people, animals, cultures or resources.

No one is allowed to have an interest that stimumlates their mind or allows them to think.

I hope it takes years for CPS to do those tests. Or the tests are done, the men are dealt with and the women are deprogrammed and allowed to see what has happened to them by their men.

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by tirante [*]If the allegations of marrying off the girls to horny old elders are true, the kids are better off in CPS.

I am not sure the term "mother" is appropriate. Perhaps, borrowing from the "Coneheads", the parents should be referred to as Female Parental Unit, and Male Parental Unit? Mother and father are not applicable terms in these instances. [/*]

[evalles]

Originally posted by Hey Paula [*]I believe the children are much better off with the CPS in this case.

The mothers of these children have been indoctrinated into the polygamist lifestyle, and cannot prevent their children from repeating it and being raped and abused again. If sent back to that environment, most of the children will likely repeat their parents' lifestyle and the abuse of children will continue for generations.

The cycle of abuse needs to stop and cannot and should not be tolerated under the guise of religion.

IMO [/*]

What were the results of the physical exams performed on the children.
It bothers me that before the results are even published and when in fact the caseworker testified that there were no accusations of abuse regarding the infants, boys, and preteen girls every one is inferring that they've all been raped and abused.
Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.
The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back.
This could be an opportunity to help the women and children live normal lives, instead it seems that they're persecuting all of them based on the actions of an unknown (so far) few.
If you had been born into this lifestyle and it had been shoved down your throat since birth, are you sure that you would be any different than these women ?

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

What were the results of the physical exams performed on the children.
It bothers me that before the results are even published and when in fact the caseworker testified that there were no accusations of abuse regarding the infants, boys, and preteen girls every one is inferring that they've all been raped and abused.
Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.
The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back.
This could be an opportunity to help the women and children live normal lives, instead it seems that they're persecuting all of them based on the actions of an unknown (so far) few.
If you had been born into this lifestyle and it had been shoved down your throat since birth, are you sure that you would be any different than these women ? [/*]

My concern is for the children, so the pattern of physical and sexual abuse doesn't continue now and into future generations.

I'm not blaming the mothers because they were the children of past generations. If the cycle isn't stopped, it will continue to rob children of their youth and innocence for generations to come.

IMO

[Details]

The mothers have been and are victims - but they are also abusers. They support the abuse of the children. The children definitely need to be with CPS until, and IF AND ONLY IF, the mothers wake up, agree to raise them as children and people, not pedophile fodder.

[juliekan]

[quote]Originally posted by evalles [*]

"The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back."


On TV last night, I heard a woman say that, and then say they would be "willing to compromise". Compromise with the State of Texas regarding polygamy, or marrying off their children underage, rape of their children, or covering for both. All are illegal; how worthy of "compromise"?
link: the crossword puzzle I was doing at the time, which I now cannot find! So JMO

[evalles]

[quote]Originally posted by juliekan [*]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

"The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back."


On TV last night, I heard a woman say that, and then say they would be "willing to compromise". Compromise with the State of Texas regarding polygamy, or marrying off their children underage, rape of their children, or covering for both. All are illegal; how worthy of "compromise"?
link: the crossword puzzle I was doing at the time, which I now cannot find! So JMO [/*]

How do you know that she, in particular, is accused of any of those things ?
If the state of TX doesn't want men to have sex w/ 16 year olds, they shouldn't issue marriage licenses to 16 yr olds.
I sure the heck wouldn't.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

How do you know that she, in particular, is accused of any of those things ?
If the state of TX doesn't want men to have sex w/ 16 year olds, they shouldn't issue marriage licenses to 16 yr olds.
I sure the heck wouldn't. [/*]

16 yo must have parental consent.

[Details]

And marriage licenses are only available for the first marriage. The state doesn't recognize, nor legalize a man having sex with several women and claiming them all as wives, and thus an exemption to the law.

[walton]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]I think the longer they are with CPS the better the chances are of the experiencing some of the necessary developmental needs of children. Play, making choices, experiencing new things forbidden in their world like books, toys things that stimulate theoir minds, even having conversations to begin to socialize properly.

Wouldn't it be nice to see these children laugh? They have never been introduced to "make believe". They've never seen a book where animals talk, or a little engine that says "I think I can". One of the parts of intelligence is humor where they can distinguish between absurd and reality.

We all noticed that the women are so literal and flat. They have never had the opportunity to make a choice that something is real, make believe , right or wrong, causes and effects, or allow anyone to learn and interpret the world, it's people, animals, cultures or resources.

No one is allowed to have an interest that stimumlates their mind or allows them to think.

I hope it takes years for CPS to do those tests. Or the tests are done, the men are dealt with and the women are deprogrammed and allowed to see what has happened to them by their men. [/*]

I agree with everything except it taking years for these tests to come back. The kids need an identity. They need to know who their real parents. For a lot of reasons. Medical being one of them. Finances another.

Perhaps the women who have escaped from FLDS and have been able to establish a normal life for themselves and their children woujld be willing to foster some of these children. They would be in the best position to understand the children and help in the deprograming.

God Bless Texas!

evalles,

Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.

I'm hoping that the "whenever possible" means "unless those parents pose a danger to their children." Until these mothers go through some serious counseling, they're a danger to their children. They honestly don't believe that it's wrong to have their early teenage daughters assigned to men several times their age as submissive junior "wives" with the intent to have them pregnant as soon and as often as possible. They believe that both laughter and tears are doorways for the devil to enter, and that children should be allowed neither, and that scares me almost as much as the physical abuses.

I'm all for the freedom of faith that this country was based on, but that freedom has to be tempered (as any freedom does) by the laws of the nation. (Freedom of speech, for example, ends at slander, at shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre... Freedom to pursue happiness ends at tossing a rock through a store window and stealing a wide-screen high-def TV set.) You don't get to build a church and declare, "Hey, my faith says it's required to sacrifice babies on the altar every Saturday afternoon," and get away with it.

Let me add that, if a man wants to have a half-dozen wives, I welcome him (and the wives, if they're up for it) to argue for the chance to pass a law making it legal, same as I support the idea of gays being allowed to fight for the right to marry.

The attitudes of the adults of this faith, and of the CHILDREN, need to be adjusted, or this cycle will never end.

[giddyupalw]

IMO the children should not go back to the "natural" Mother until all these women get help!! These women have been abused too and are not fit to be a Mother!! I believe the children are safer with CPS!! Just MO!!!

[juliekan]

I don't think it will necessarily be that hard to find folks that could accommodate these childrens needs, and I'm not talking about food and shelter. I grew up in West Texas and there's an awful lot of straight-laced, hard-working, and God-fearin' people out there. My mom grew up on a farm where they were basically self sufficient...so how was I raised? By the time I was 12, I could clean, cook, sew, mow the yard, type 50 wpm, and my Daddy started to teach me how to drive a car. We went to church at least 3 times per week and learning to sing well and/or play the piano was high on our list. Sounds like a perfect fit for these kids.

[LLaFren]

Looks like the poll is favoring CPS, I believe that the children are in for a huge (HUGE) cultural shock though. I hope the foster parents are ready for it.

Originally posted by Details [*]The mothers have been and are victims - but they are also abusers. They support the abuse of the children. The children definitely need to be with CPS until, and IF AND ONLY IF, the mothers wake up, agree to raise them as children and people, not pedophile fodder. [/*]

I worry about the fact that many of the mothers must directly aid in the abuse as well as many fathers. I do believe there are good men and women amongst these, but I'm not sure how one would know unless they would all be honest about what has transpired and what they witnessed. If stories could be adequately corroborated. I wish some of the men who are truly good and do not agree with the abuse (possibly) would come forward. Maybe there is also hope in finding more of those lost boys who would tell their story.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

What were the results of the physical exams performed on the children.
It bothers me that before the results are even published and when in fact the caseworker testified that there were no accusations of abuse regarding the infants, boys, and preteen girls every one is inferring that they've all been raped and abused.
Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.
The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back.
This could be an opportunity to help the women and children live normal lives, instead it seems that they're persecuting all of them based on the actions of an unknown (so far) few.
If you had been born into this lifestyle and it had been shoved down your throat since birth, are you sure that you would be any different than these women ? [/*]

Evalles, I think there were no accusations of abuse because their definition of abuse is different. When they put very young children under water faucets until they stop crying, it's not abuse...it's discipline. When they lock them in closets for long periods of time without food or a chance to relieve themselves, they call it discipline. We don't.

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
Evalles, I think there were no accusations of abuse because their definition of abuse is different.

When they put very young children under water faucets until they stop crying, it's not abuse...it's discipline.

When they lock them in closets for long periods of time without food or a chance to relieve themselves, they call it discipline. We don't. [/*]

Good points....
Sadly we must remember when questioning them that their DEFINITION of most things are different than ours.

from what I've read, this cult seems to have been committing more crimes & breaking more laws, per Person/population, than the "so-called EVIL outside" world.....IMO

[crimeq]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]Looks like the poll is favoring CPS, I believe that the children are in for a huge (HUGE) cultural shock though. I hope the foster parents are ready for it. [/*]

I think this culture shock is going to be similar to that of older Russian kids adopted and brought to the US--there's a lot of RAD in these kids that I think is attributable to being moved into a completely strange culture (including language) and expected to "fit". Of course there is major culture shock for the children and they are overwhelmed by the new strangeness.

While these 400+ kids now in CPS custody speak English, they have been uprooted from all that they do know, separated from those whom they know, and are being put into a world they know nothing of and may well be very frightening to them.

This case is a very, very tough call, IMO. I do think children are usually better off with the natural parent(s) in most cases but these kids sound like they are raised in a way to fit nowhere but within their own compound. But then--if that's the life they would pursue--is it abusive to them to not teach them of the outside world?

The complexities in this case are enormous and sadly, quite a number of lives have been and are in process of being ruined.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by maryhaze [*]

how about sperm donors & incubators? those are the terms i use when talking about people that can't or don't care for their kids. [/*]

You're forgetting that each child is made up approximately 50-50 of the "sperm donor" and "incubator". Attatching such derogatory labels isn't going to help anyone's situation or detract from the real biology of the child.

[crimeq]

Originally posted by skytalk [*]
I can't say I agree with or enjoy your choice of labels for human beings with SEVERE problems in parenting as 'incubators and sperm donors'.

They are parents--albeit--not healthy parents. When children are endangered it is wise to have the state intervene are behalf of the vulnerable children and parents.

We don't want harmful parents to be able to continue harming their children regardless of their reasons--their own culturally accepted generational abuse, drug abuse, mental illness. [/*]

All great points. Thanks.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by skytalk [*]
You sound like someone I would enjoy meeting. [/*]

[evalles]

Strayhorn To Report Foster Care Deaths,
Poisonings, Rapes and Pregnancies To Task Force
Friday, June 23, 2006
<Snips>
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the
number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more
likely to die in our state's foster care system," Strayhorn said.
Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services
Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from
medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred
while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state
foster care system.
Strayhorn said her findings will be reported Thursday, June 29, 2006 to the
Medicaid and Public Assistance Fraud Oversight Task Force so there will be a
public record of this neglect and abuse.”
Hundreds of foster children who were HIV infected were used as
guinea pigs to test AIDS drugs by federally funded researchers
during the 1990’s in 7 states. Texas was among those. No medical
advocates were appointed for the children in violation of federal law and the
“Protection of Human Subjects” guidelines.
It is well-documented that children typically DIE IN THE
SYSTEM. This documentation comes from the U.S. Department of Health
and Human Services itself:
http://www.syc.org/child_deaths.html
Deaths that occur while a child is under the custody or supervision of the child
welfare agency are especially egregious. Child Protective Services in 45 States
reported 32 deaths that occurred in foster care. Of these, 17 deaths were reported
by other agencies such as the coroner's office and fatality review boards.
Approximately 2.7 percent of child fatalities reported by the States occurred in
some type of out-of-home placement setting.
To repeat, 2.7% of ALL child fatalities happen on CPS's watch.
According to this NCPA study, http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s210/s210.html about
500,000 children were in foster care as of 1996. According to Trends 1997,
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/97trends/Pf1-1.htm the number of children in the general
population in the United States was nearly 70 million children in 1996. So, in
foster care, 0.7% of the children were in the custody of CPS. That means that
the death rate in CPS is nearly 4 times greater than the average
for the general population. This is hardly "child-protection.”
One of the most extensive studies on the subject, by Strauss and Gelles (1990)
reports that for physical abuse, the rate is higher for mothers than for fathers:
17.7% for mothers vs. 10.1% for fathers. They found that preteen boys are
slightly more likely to be abused than their sisters but that the pattern changes
alter puberty. Strauss and Gelles, however, also refer to some contravening
studies that show higher rates for fathers.
Susan Steinmetz (1977/78) who has collaborated with Strauss and Gelles,
reported independently that "mothers abused children 62% more often than
fathers, and that male children were more than twice as likely to suffer physical
injury" (p.499).
David C. Morrow (1993) reports: "Drawing upon reports of the American
Humane Association, the Association of Juvenile Courts, the National Center for
the Prevention of Child Abuse, and the FBI's 1978 crime report, John Rossler of
Equal Rights for Fathers of New York State estimated that mothers commit over
two-thirds of all child abuse, 80% of it in sole custody and none in joint custody
situations, while boyfriends and new husbands perpetrate most of the rest. A
similar study conducted a few years earlier in Utah by Ken Pangborn showed
abuse 37% higher among single mothers than the general population and 67% of
all abuse in the doing of women of whom 80% are single mothers."
Diane Russell (1986) reports that of adult women in San Francisco who reported
one or more experiences of incestuous abuse, overall 4.5% were abused by a
father (biological, step, foster or adoptive). But the abuse was much more likely to
occur with a stepfather. Russell reports that 17% of the women who were raised
by a stepfather were abused by him compared to 2% of the women who were
raised by a biological father. This indicates the greater risk to a girl of growing up
in a household without her biological father.
Thomas Fleming (1986) cites a Canadian study that concluded that preschoolers
were 40 times as likely to be abused in broken and illegitimate families as
compared to those in intact two-parent families.
The consensus thus appears to support the assertion that child abuse is much more
common in single parent families or families missing the biological
father, that women are more often the abusers, and that male children
are more often the victims.


More info:

http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/news/60623forgotten.html

[Carol25]

Originally posted by evalles [*]Strayhorn To Report Foster Care Deaths,
Poisonings, Rapes and Pregnancies To Task Force
Friday, June 23, 2006
<Snips>
"
More info:

http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/news/60623forgotten.html [/*]

I agree that these statistics are alarming. But if there were accurate statistics of the FLDS group, would you be comforted?

We've heard of the forced "marriages " upon puberty, water torture of children, abandoning of the "lost boys", etc. Alarming as the statistics you posted were, the statistics for these children and women are just as alarming if not terribly worse.

Wouldn't you agree that we are both here in the best interests of the children and perhaps the women? Perhaps we should focus on the assurance of the type of foster homes these children may be going to. And what kind of screening and education the foster parents will receive in order to help these special people. That would be a concern of mine.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
Evalles, I think there were no accusations of abuse because their definition of abuse is different. When they put very young children under water faucets until they stop crying, it's not abuse...it's discipline. When they lock them in closets for long periods of time without food or a chance to relieve themselves, they call it discipline. We don't. [/*]

Flora Jessop said she saw her husband do this once, it doesn't mean they all did. She was obviously married to a sadistic jerk.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss [*]evalles,



I'm hoping that the "whenever possible" means "unless those parents pose a danger to their children." Until these mothers go through some serious counseling, they're a danger to their children. They honestly don't believe that it's wrong to have their early teenage daughters assigned to men several times their age as submissive junior "wives" with the intent to have them pregnant as soon and as often as possible. They believe that both laughter and tears are doorways for the devil to enter, and that children should be allowed neither, and that scares me almost as much as the physical abuses.

I'm all for the freedom of faith that this country was based on, but that freedom has to be tempered (as any freedom does) by the laws of the nation. (Freedom of speech, for example, ends at slander, at shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre... Freedom to pursue happiness ends at tossing a rock through a store window and stealing a wide-screen high-def TV set.) You don't get to build a church and declare, "Hey, my faith says it's required to sacrifice babies on the altar every Saturday afternoon," and get away with it.

Let me add that, if a man wants to have a half-dozen wives, I welcome him (and the wives, if they're up for it) to argue for the chance to pass a law making it legal, same as I support the idea of gays being allowed to fight for the right to marry.

The attitudes of the adults of this faith, and of the CHILDREN, need to be adjusted, or this cycle will never end. [/*]

That's what whenever possible means.

[evalles]

Originally posted by tirante [*]So? What was that about? [/*]

That children are abused in foster care also and that the government doesn't always know best.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
I agree that these statistics are alarming. But if there were accurate statistics of the FLDS group, would you be comforted?

We've heard of the forced "marriages " upon puberty, water torture of children, abandoning of the "lost boys", etc. Alarming as the statistics you posted were, the statistics for these children and women are just as alarming if not terribly worse.

Wouldn't you agree that we are both here in the best interests of the children and perhaps the women? Perhaps we should focus on the assurance of the type of foster homes these children may be going to. And what kind of screening and education the foster parents will receive in order to help these special people. That would be a concern of mine. [/*]

Government workers( who are people w/ their own biases) choose foster homes. I'm sure there are good ones, but if you research foster care, the standards aren't as high as they are for the bio parents.
A lot of times, once a foster home is licensed, they're reluctant to take complaints against fosterers seriously.

[evalles]

I've spent so much time on these boards lately that my house is a mess and my laundry is piling up.

Please don't call CPS.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by evalles [*]I've spent so much time on these boards lately that my house is a mess and my laundry is piling up.

Please don't call CPS. [/*]

Promise. I'd have to turn myself in first.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles [*]I've spent so much time on these boards lately that my house is a mess and my laundry is piling up.

Please don't call CPS. [/*]

You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!!

[Carol25]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

Government workers( who are people w/ their own biases) choose foster homes. I'm sure there are good ones, but if you research foster care, the standards aren't as high as they are for the bio parents.
A lot of times, once a foster home is licensed, they're reluctant to take complaints against fosterers seriously. [/*]

Well, I'm not sure where you get all of your information, but my guess would be that they will do their best to find very good homes. This is so high profile, they won't want any bad placements hitting the news!

Have you ever thought of starting an Oversight Group?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by xray ra [*]

You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!! [/*]

Really! I'm getting my exercise!

[evalles]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
Well, I'm not sure where you get all of your information, but my guess would be that they will do their best to find very good homes. This is so high profile, they won't want any bad placements hitting the news!

Have you ever thought of starting an Oversight Group? [/*]

There are several, which is where I get most of my info.

CPS Watch, Child Protection Reform, TAF United and Court Watchers. They have thousands of members and some of their stories are heartbreaking.
Every once in awhile, somebody will post that I have no sympathy for but for the most part they are victims of the system.
I missed alot of time at work over the last year and between playing catch up and trying to spend more time with my kids, I haven't had a lot of extra time. As soon as things calm down a little, I plan on taking a more active role.
Mainly, I want accountability in the system. I think open courts in these types of cases would help. I'd like LE to investigate cases where children are at risk of being removed.
Did you read the report that Sen Nancy Shaeffer wrote after she spent 5 years investigating CPS in her state ?

http://fightcps.com/2008/02/29/repor...ps-corruption/

She's not in CPS, she's not a disgruntled parent. She has no ulterior motives and she thinks it is nationwide.

[evalles]

Originally posted by xray ra [*]

You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!! [/*]

LOL. I know. Which one ?

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

LOL. I know. Which one ? [/*]

I think the STICKY thread covers it all. But first go and read my post on the "Fundementals Latter Day Saints" or something like that. OK? (around 6pm)

[Carol25]

Originally posted by evalles [*]

There are several, which is where I get most of my info.

CPS Watch, Child Protection Reform, TAF United and Court Watchers. They have thousands of members and some of their stories are heartbreaking.
Every once in awhile, somebody will post that I have no sympathy for but for the most part they are victims of the system.
I missed alot of time at work over the last year and between playing catch up and trying to spend more time with my kids, I haven't had a lot of extra time. As soon as things calm down a little, I plan on taking a more active role.
Mainly, I want accountability in the system. I think open courts in these types of cases would help. I'd like LE to investigate cases where children are at risk of being removed.
Did you read the report that Sen Nancy Shaeffer wrote after she spent 5 years investigating CPS in her state ?

http://fightcps.com/2008/02/29/repor...ps-corruption/

She's not in CPS, she's not a disgruntled parent. She has no ulterior motives and she thinks it is nationwide. [/*]

do they ever do anything about the cases they were supposed to investigate and didn't where the children ended up dead? That's where I come from and get real

[Details]

There are bad CPS, and good, bad foster homes and good. But every last person to escape FLDS tells the same story - and it's bad.

Oh, and Flora Jessup said this was common in FLDS, not just that her husband did it once. It reflected FLDS beliefs in not letting children cry.. or laugh.


Even the worst stats, even the worst stories, show CPS to be a far better choice, and most of the time, they're good. Just me alone, I can point to two kids that I know who are in a much better place due to CPS. I also know of a father who probably should have some CPS investigation, but because the rules require a few reports in most circumstances, he's not getting it.


For bad CPS stories - I don't trust those unless I hear the other side. Abusive parents know how to lie, know how to present just their side, omitting all negative facts, having their kids lie for them - as kids often lie for abusers. So, when I hear a pitiful CPS story - I take it with a large grain of salt. Even when the parent is telling the truth - they're telling what they believe - they may be as honest as the FLDS women who say the children are not abused - by their definition of abuse. You know - the "my ma used to beat my butt blistered with a garden hose, so it's not abuse to whale on a kid a bit!" types.