Daily Thread 4-18-08

What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Rainkiss [*]What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

[/*]

Wouldn't mitochondrial DNA determine who the mother is?

[Carol25]

I would guess the next order of business should be a court order for blood tests of the men in the compound to prove statutory rape. Once they have the children and the mothers, they can prove who the fathers are and the cases can be proven through DNA and cannot be refuted. All of the men can be declared suspects and be held in the compound, can't they?

[Shells2]

Originally posted by Rainkiss [*]What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

[/*]

I think if they took DNA samples from all of the women and all of the men, and then compared them with the DNA of the children they would be able to come up with who parented who ( but I'm not sure on the science of that)

These people are so brainwashed it is going to take a very long time for them to heal and tell anyone anything. They are raised with secrecy and deceit being rewarded and fears of Hell and damnation being drilled into them - it's a horrible situation.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by Rainkiss [*]What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

[/*]

Not only that,Texas doesn't even have enough foster homes for 401 kids.

1 possible solution is to send the women and kids back to the ranch since the men are being kicked off it(and probably will end up being arrested).No point in letting all those houses(and school)go to waste if you don't have enough foster homes.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by Rainkiss [*]What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

[/*]

Also,some kids who do know who the mothers are are unwilling to say who their mothers are.

[Details]

DNA works fine even if you don't have one parent. Both mother and father, independently, can easily enough be found.

Texas has enough foster homes. The little town where they are may not, but Texas - heck yes, it has enough foster homes.

It's a big problem, but the children are in far better shape now than before - before they were in huge danger, now they are saved from a terrible fate (to become either a child 'bride', a pedophile, or a lost boy). It'll be difficult, and this will take time, but on the whole, it'll be immensely better than their future was a mere month ago.

I suspect some of the women will turn out to be fit mothers, and will help foster many of the children, some may be adopted, some will go back to their original parents, others will go to foster homes - if necessary that could be in other states - I suspect many of them would feel most at home in Utah in a Mormon home.

Greta just reported there were 416 children removed.

They are looking for foster homes for them.

The court hearing is on the 17th.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by wandering [*]Greta just reported there were 416 children removed.

They are looking for foster homes for them.

The court hearing is on the 17th. [/*]

I really feel sorry for these kids.

[Freebird]

Some of these kids are not being allowed to see their mothers.

[Freebird]

These kids are in for culture shock if they are put into foster care and their experience may only deepen their mistrust of the outside world.

[Details]

Originally posted by Freebird [*]These kids are in for culture shock if they are put into foster care and their experience may only deepen their mistrust of the outside world. [/*]

Solutions?

Court documents noted that among the children there was a 16-year-old girl who had given birth to four children.

How do you propose to help her? Leave her with her rapist? Or with her rapist's enablers? Or do we try to help her - even if the truth about the outside world will be shocking - it would be no matter what. Foster families are there to help all kinds of traumatized children - these are not that much different.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4635296&page=3

The fate of these children???


These children may have a hope for a good future, they have been rescued from demons, omo, and will have a chance to succeed in life, and freedom to choose their own path in life.


Texans should be proud .

Originally posted by grammybear [*]From everything I have read and seen so far the whole state of TX is behind these children. It is going to take some time but at least these children stand a chance whereas if they had stayed in the FLDS flock the futures would be far greater of being abused then they are in the foster system. People are basically good and these children will be taken care of. We just have to allow the judicial system to work. The fates of being a child bride would have been so much greater if they were not pulled out when they were. They are going to have a hard time but if everybody pulls together these kids at least now stand a chance at a decent life.
jmoo [/*]

ITA that these kids are going to have a hard time.

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]I would guess the next order of business should be a court order for blood tests of the men in the compound to prove statutory rape. Once they have the children and the mothers, they can prove who the fathers are and the cases can be proven through DNA and cannot be refuted. All of the men can be declared suspects and be held in the compound, can't they? [/*]

I'm not sure the court can do that. It's a tremendous violation of rights. These women and children are not criminals, are they?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by wandering [*]I'm not sure the court can do that. It's a tremendous violation of rights. These women and children are not criminals, are they? [/*]

No, but their DNA would be needed to find out who impregnated them, or who the rapist was. I meant only the DNA from the young mothers. Don't know if that would be legal or not.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte [*]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/...gamist_retreat

SAN ANGELO, Texas - The mothers of children removed from a polygamous sect's ranch in West Texas after an abuse allegation are appealing to Gov. Rick Perry for help, saying some of their children have become sick and even required hospitalization.


In the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, the mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also say children are "horrified" by physical examinations they have undergone while in state custody. [/*]

Didn't we hear that some of the children had chicken pox when they arrived?

[Details]

These are the mothers I was thinking about when I said I think there is good reason they aren't allowed to just have the children. Children being married to old men, having to have sex - in their mind, that's fine. But a trip to the doctor - horrible!

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
Didn't we hear that some of the children had chicken pox when they arrived? [/*]

Yep, chicken pox...what do you expect when there are a zillion little kids to pass it on to?

[LLaFren]

um, this may sound like a stupid question, but, here goes anyway... Aren't vaccines required by law? And isn't there one for chicken pox these days? I seem to recall all of my kids getting one.

Of course if they're not going to school, I guess no one can confirm that the children have received proper medical care.

No wonder these kids are upset about being seen by a doctor.

[Freebird]

Wait till these kids realize they may not see their mothers again.

[lotty]

Originally posted by LLaFren [*]um, this may sound like a stupid question, but, here goes anyway... Aren't vaccines required by law? And isn't there one for chicken pox these days? I seem to recall all of my kids getting one.

Of course if they're not going to school, I guess no one can confirm that the children have received proper medical care.

No wonder these kids are upset about being seen by a doctor.



[/*]

I don't know about other states. In New Mexico they are required for public school...it's a law. If they are home schooled nope. I know a few kids that are home schooled and not innoculated.
The varicella vaccine covers chicken pox.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

Apr 14, 12:29 PM EDT

Gary Banks, a lawyer representing the state Children's Protective Services, told the judge the state believes "there is a systematic process at the ranch near Eldorado at which children were exploited and sexually abused."

Originally posted by grammybear [*].

Parents are supposed to protect their babies, not feed them to the wolves. Being a parent, such as it is is a very loose term for the care they gave these babies. They have already proven they can not be trusted with the care of these children, so now it is time for someone else to step in and give the children the needs by a loving caregiver not just by a biological parent who will use and abuse them.

jmoo [/*]

grammybear no truer words have been spoken.

[walton]

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270178,00.html

"They wouldn't have gone to Texas if they hadn't been running away from us," he said in a recent interview with the Deseret News. "They went to Texas to flee when we started cracking down."

Anti-polygamy activists have gone on cable-TV talk shows and given interviews praising Texas for the raid.

"At least Texas has finally done something about this horrid cult, while Arizona and Utah have swept it under the rug for a hundred years," Dot Reidelbach, the director of the FLDS documentary "Banking on Heaven," wrote in an e-mail to supporters.

Still, Shurtleff said he had no plans to conduct a similar mass-scale raid on the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.

"And do what? Arrest thousands of polygamists in Utah? We wouldn't have 400 kids, we'd have thousands in our foster care and thousands of their parents in the prison system. It's not practical to do that," Shurtleff said. "We were right to focus on abused children."


Why let them get abused first? Why not stop the abuse before they become a victim?

The taxpayers are already footing a large bill with the amount of social services that they are collecting.
Men with over 100 children , one legal wife and 13 "spiritual" wives. Can't tell me that isn't costing the taxpayer. That is just one family.

Chased them out of Utah? They had it so good that they thought they'd set up shop in other states. jmo

It has just been recently that some of the LE in that area have had to step down because they were part of Warrens group. LE officials that the state KNEW were part of the problem.

There was at least one case where a Judge was asked to step down because he too was a polygamist.

Polygamy is against the law. The states of Arizona and Utah have been watching and waiting for victims for over 100 years. Isn't it about time that they stop watching and start doing?

jmo

[spydernweb2006]

To the People of Utah and Arizona Governments and Law Efforcement please READ THIS!

"All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good (people) to do nothing."
--Edmund Burke

You have stood by for over a hundred YEARS and allowed children to be exploited and abused while you stood around and did nothing. You shouldn't fear the backlash of doing something in Utah and Arizona, you should fear the backlash if you DONT!

The barn door has been opened and you can not close it. I dont believe anyone will tolerate the rampant abuse of children by the FLDS any longer. If Utah is afraid to do something to help these children because of numbers that could reach into the thousands what the heck is gonna happen when that number grows into millions?

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[spydernweb2006]

The children have been moved.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/...EcHpbySYms0NUE

I can hope, wish and pray they children will moved far enough away to be removed from any influence that will help the people abusing them.

As for those that complained to the Tx Govenor, becareful what you ask for...... You may just get it!

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[Carol25]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte [*]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/...gamist_retreat

"Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said." [/*]

The article says the men would be willing to leave and let the women and children come back with Child Protection Monitors. sure, we would never see the men again now, would we! Let's get some blood tests done, then we'll have the men come out...and put them in jail.

[VC2]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte [*]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/...gamist_retreat

"Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said." [/*]

what about the mothers who are underage? Are they being forced to leave them or not? It seems a bit much if a rape victims children are forced away from her!

[Freebird]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte [*]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/...gamist_retreat

"Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said." [/*]

What must be going through the minds of these kids.Thrust into a world they may distrust.And now most deprived of their mothers.I don't see how these kids can grow up trusting a world that took them away from their mothers.

for the kids.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]
The article says the men would be willing to leave and let the women and children come back with Child Protection Monitors. sure, we would never see the men again now, would we! Let's get some blood tests done, then we'll have the men come out...and put them in jail. [/*]

Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids.

[aubrey04]

How does this go unnoticed for so long? This is horrendous. Anderson Cooper is interviewing a lady right now and she seems like a robot. Totally coached and brain-washed. She is monotone and just VERY, very coached.

Originally posted by aubrey04 [*]How does this go unnoticed for so long? This is horrendous. Anderson Cooper is interviewing a lady right now and she seems like a robot. Totally coached and brain-washed. She is monotone and just VERY, very coached. [/*]

Her name is Kathleen Jessop. See my posts on the LKL thread, for more detail about her.

[walton]

Originally posted by aubrey04 [*]How does this go unnoticed for so long? This is horrendous. Anderson Cooper is interviewing a lady right now and she seems like a robot. Totally coached and brain-washed. She is monotone and just VERY, very coached. [/*]

Over the last 3-4 years on this board, I've tried really hard not to show my emotions. I've tried really hard to not get close to anyone. Until now.


<< I don't know how to do the crying smiley icon. ( Go figure)




I think the world of Texas and I appreciate each and every one of you. Thanks.

[lotty]

Originally posted by walton [*]
snipped
Over the last 3-4 years on this board, I've tried really hard not to show my emotions. I've tried really hard to not get close to anyone. Until now.
I think the world of Texas and I appreciate each and every one of you. Thanks. [/*]

Walton you have done an amazing job. Long, have I admired your self control...Probably because I don't have so much especially not today.

Your research has been outstanding...I'm guessing your knowledge of the FLDS is pretty much encyclopedic by now.

Maybe we can hope the end is finally near.

[Carol25]

Walton, I posted with you during the Jeffs trial. I also have appreciated your expertise. I don't know what made you become so involved with this topic, but I and many others have benefitted so much from your knowledge. Thank you from me anf many others.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Carol25 [*]Walton, I posted with you during the Jeffs trial. I also have appreciated your expertise. I don't know what made you become so involved with this topic, but I and many others have benefitted so much from your knowledge. Thank you from me anf many others. [/*]

DITTO

I was hoping against hope after the Jeffs conviction that maybe just maybe things would wind down. Nope, too much money, power, control. I was really hoping. I had posted a few days earlier...Let's hope Texas crosses their "T's" and dots their "I's"
it is indeed a monumental task. I'm sure hoping this time that someone is up for the job.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by lotty [*]

DITTO

I was hoping against hope after the Jeffs conviction that maybe just maybe things would wind down. Nope, too much money, power, control. I was really hoping. I had posted a few days earlier...Let's hope Texas crosses their "T's" and dots their "I's"
it is indeed a monumental task. I'm sure hoping this time that someone is up for the job. [/*]

Lotty, I agree. And if someome started the movement in Utah, just targeting 20 families at a time, they would know their time has come.

All they have to do is go in unannounced and find the pregnant teenagers and bring them out and start the DNA work.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]I'm just sick at all of this.

I will totally acknowledge that this was a GREAT setup for the powerful men in this cult - I'm sure they're mourning the deal they had set up - having their pick of the 16 year old girls coming of "age" - as they see it - and having sex with numerous beautiful young women. But hey, read Genesis in our Christian Bible and there it is. So we can't really say as a culture we don't embrace it.

I acknowledge that many of these 16 year old girls were in for a shock and unpleasant introduction to sexuality. It's not like giving yourself to a boy you are in love with. But wow there are pitfalls to that too.

So I think we're down to this. How many people in that compound are in such despair that they can't function, they kill themselves, and turn to drugs and alcohol and laying on the streets in grief?

This is the fate of these children. This is their future. Not many of them are going to sprout wings and fly into a successful future - probably most of them will languish the way American Indians did on the reservations, and the way Katrina evacuees are now doing.

People who are evacuated against their will - despite the fact that we think it needs to be done - don't thrive.

You can throw stones at me for this, but these kids will NOT thrive. Compare their existance in 10 years to what it would have been in the compound, which in fact, is thriving. Despite the ick factor of old guys having sex with 16 year old girls. [/*]

RachelRose, your post is welcome for anyone can post their thoughts. I have to disagree with one point, however.
People who are evacuated can and most likely will thrive. I can't understand why you would say the opposite. Remember, they aren't being left to their own devices for survival. They are going to loving foster homes that will help them acclimate to their new world of freedoms, choices and living without fear.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by RachelRose [*]Carol, no they don't. People who resist evacuation don't thrive.

You may not be aware, or be educated, in refugee populations.

Everyone has this fantasy that now that these children taste our society, they will be thrilled and grow. They won't.

Post back in 10 years and we'll re-discuss this.

And Carol, have you ever dealt with the foster care system? "Loving"? Many ARE, that's for sure. Many foster care families are a god blessing for chidren who were beaten and starved and neglected, thank goodness for those families!

But if you haven't dealt with kids in the foster care system (I have) many are neglected and emotionally starved in homes that just want money.

Sad sad sad. This is not going to work out. [/*]

Rachel, I assume you have more experience in foster care work than I do. I was assuming that these families would be so vetted that only the best would be selected. But perhaps with the sheer number of children involved, you may have a point about some. Do to the uniqueness in this situation, do you feel that more safeguards and checks will be put in place?

Let's wait and see what the actual plan turns out to be. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised. I wish there was a great answer for all of this. Respectfully, Carol