Wednesday April 9, 2008 Lauterbach daily

[CANDYKISSES]

Well, apparently Captain Sutherland thinks the date of death is December 14th.

That leaves me wondering why the family seems to think the 15th.

It leaves me hopeful they are still operating under the idea that quite possibly Cesar had help.....JMOOC.

Time will tell IMO.

[crymeariver2006]

Bringing over my last post on yesterday's thread re the death certificate:

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]

If you look at 19a and 19bee, you'll see the name of Merle Wilberding and his office address. Isn't that the Lauterbach attorney?

That might be a source of some of the confusion. Wouldn't he be the same attorney that assisted Mary on probate issues? [/*]

JMO and all that.

ETA nuttin's links to death certificate:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ins198/DC1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ins198/DC2.jpg

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]Bringing over my last post on yesterday's thread re the death certificate:



JMO and all that.

ETA nuttin's links to death certificate:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ins198/DC1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ins198/DC2.jpg [/*]

Yes cryme, this is the attorney listed as representing Mary Lauterbach IMO.

I am wondering why the family is still going with the fifteenth?

Could it be their opinion on what happened and when differs from OCSD?

JMO.

[caejde]

To me, Capt. Sutherland's response is a little contradictory. He says (paraphrasing) that with certainty they believe. Well, to me if it was certain they wouldn't have to believe....does that make sense? When they say believe, to me that is an educated guess. But it's not certain if they say believe. If they knew for sure it was the 14th, then I could see them as saying they were certain date of death was the 14th. Maybe it's just me though...

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by caejde [*]To me, Capt. Sutherland's response is a little contradictory. He says (paraphrasing) that with certainty they believe. Well, to me if it was certain they wouldn't have to believe....does that make sense? When they say believe, to me that is an educated guess. But it's not certain if they say believe. If they knew for sure it was the 14th, then I could see them as saying they were certain date of death was the 14th. Maybe it's just me though... [/*]

I dunno, I'm just glad that he comments on Lindell's blog where the comment section can be moderated.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES [*]

Yes cryme, this is the attorney listed as representing Mary Lauterbach IMO.

I am wondering why the family is still going with the fifteenth?

Could it be their opinion on what happened and when differs from OCSD?

JMO. [/*]

But why is anyone going with the 16th? Is there some special significance to that date as opposed to the 14th or even the 15th?

The 16th is not even listed on the autopsy is it?

[sexxytazz]

When my mom passed, it was an unattended death. IOW, she passed at home in her sleep. because it was unknown if she passed before or after midnight, my sisters and I were allowed to choose which day we wanted on her headstone, newpapers, ect as far as DOD. We choose the later of the two days because 1) that was hwen she was found and 2) we wanted her "here" with us as long as possible so we chose the later date.

Could something like this have happened with Marias family? Maybe at the time of her funeral, all the info was not in yet and it was still debatable as to which date she was actually killed?

[GentleBreeze]

I am bringing my posts from the morning over. I didnt see this thread first, sorry.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CANDYKISSES [*]

YES it was and strangely I felt like I was reading a paraphrased rewrite....doh....must be adhd.

IMO. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is very confusing to me.

The death certificate list 12/16/07 as the date that injuries occurred.

And I know this is a small thing but a Marine is never called a "soldier" yet they list her as one.

It seemed very sloppily typed imo.

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]I am bringing my posts from the morning over. I didnt see this thread first, sorry.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CANDYKISSES [*]

YES it was and strangely I felt like I was reading a paraphrased rewrite....doh....must be adhd.

IMO. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is very confusing to me.

The death certificate list 12/16/07 as the date that injuries occurred.

And I know this is a small thing but a Marine is never called a "soldier" yet they list her as one.

It seemed very sloppily typed imo.

imoo [/*]

I think the information on the top part is provided either by the family, or in this case, Attorney Wilberding. And IMO, he is the one that provided the DOD for probate purposes. Again, jmo.

But, if that's true, then why?

Yes, I noticed the "soldier" part and was going to ask about it. Also under marital status, it doesn't say "Single", it says "Never married".

And "USM Corp" as opposed to USMC or US Marines. Sounds like a corporation in the private sector. JMO though.

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]

I dunno, I'm just glad that he comments on Lindell's blog where the comment section can be moderated.

[/*]

I enjoy the blog and I hope he continues to post. The comment board over at JD news is getting out of hand. Though I did read a comment from someone who seems to know Christina. And it was said that Cesar did bury Maria out in the wooded area behind their house and then after he went to Lowe's he moved the body. Did police even search that area? I know when I saw them searching they weren't at his house yet...they were searching off Gumbranch Rd.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sexxytazz [*]When my mom passed, it was an unattended death. IOW, she passed at home in her sleep. because it was unknown if she passed before or after midnight, my sisters and I were allowed to choose which day we wanted on her headstone, newpapers, ect as far as DOD. We choose the later of the two days because 1) that was when she was found and 2) we wanted her "here" with us as long as possible so we chose the later date.

Could something like this have happened with Marias family? Maybe at the time of her funeral, all the info was not in yet and it was still debatable as to which date she was actually killed? [/*]

In order to intern someone I do believe the family has to have some kind of legal information hat verifies the death date and other information. They also had to have something on Gabriel too even if it was preliminary I would think since they buried him separately from his mom in his own casket.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]

I think the information on the top part is provided either by the family, or in this case, Attorney Wilberding. And IMO, he is the one that provided the DOD for probate purposes. Again, jmo.

But, if that's true, then why?

Yes, I noticed the "soldier" part and was going to ask about it. Also under marital status, it doesn't say "Single", it says "Never married".

And "USM Corp" as opposed to USMC or US Marines. Sounds like a corporation in the private sector. JMO though. [/*]

Good Morning Cryme!

I don't know. I wasn't aware that the family or an attorney participated in the death certificate. I always thought that was issued strictly from a medical examiner's information or of course if it is from natural causes the doctor in care of the deceased can sign the death certificate.....at least in my state.

I think there is a time window of 10 days after knowledge of death to file the DC. However it can happen much sooner than the 10 days...depending on the urgency. When was Maria and Gabriel buried?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by caejde [*]To me, Capt. Sutherland's response is a little contradictory. He says (paraphrasing) that with certainty they believe. Well, to me if it was certain they wouldn't have to believe....does that make sense? When they say believe, to me that is an educated guess. But it's not certain if they say believe. If they knew for sure it was the 14th, then I could see them as saying they were certain date of death was the 14th. Maybe it's just me though... [/*]

That is how I interpreted it too, caejde.

imoo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]

That is how I interpreted it too, caejde.

imoo [/*]

Me too.

[strick10]

Originally posted by SavannahStar [*]

Me too. [/*]

Me three. Morning all!

[donna]

Good morning, everyone!
I do read every post on a daily basis, but usually at a time when no one else is on due to my schedule.
I just read Captain Sutherland's response. Seems that LE is now going with the DOD being 12/14. There is no way to know for sure, IMO. We may never know.
I was glad to see CAL added to AMW's dirty dozen. I do hope some of the tips pan out.

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]

Good Morning Cryme!

I don't know. I wasn't aware that the family or an attorney participated in the death certificate. I always thought that was issued strictly from a medical examiner's information or of course if it is from natural causes the doctor in care of the deceased can sign the death certificate.....at least in my state.

I think there is a time window of 10 days after knowledge of death to file the DC. However it can happen much sooner than the 10 days...depending on the urgency. When was Maria and Gabriel buried?

imoo [/*]

The date of death, in a case like this, is determined by LE through their investigation. CS says the date of death is the 14th. imo That is the last day they can determine she was alive, and at 5pm the last time she was seen alive by a witness when she bought the ticket.

I just don't see why that is so hard to understand. Just saying.............

jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by donna [*]Good morning, everyone!
I do read every post on a daily basis, but usually at a time when no one else is on due to my schedule.
I just read Captain Sutherland's response. Seems that LE is now going with the DOD being 12/14. There is no way to know for sure, IMO. We may never know.
I was glad to see CAL added to AMW's dirty dozen. I do hope some of the tips pan out. [/*]

Me too donna, been missing ya and hope all is well.

That really does tighten the time line as we have discussed for anyone believing Cesar did it all alone. Hmmm....

I see room for Cesar to come back and start coming up with the information they may or may not need to NAIL IT DOWN IMO.

jmo

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box [*]

The date of death, in a case like this, is determined by LE through their investigation. CS says the date of death is the 14th. imo That is the last day they can determine she was alive, and at 5pm the last time she was seen alive by a witness when she bought the ticket.

I just don't see why that is so hard to understand. Just saying.............

jmo [/*]

Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by strick10 [*]

Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished. [/*]

And that my friend is of the utmost importance IMO as their investigation continues. They have to ask themselves HOW this could be doen alone and how others could be on the scene and KNOW NOTHING IMHO.

Carry on.....

JMO

[strick10]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES [*]



And that my friend is of the utmost importance IMO as their investigation continues. They have to ask themselves HOW this could be doen alone and how others could be on the scene and KNOW NOTHING IMHO.

Carry on.....

JMO [/*]

Carry on... I've always thought there was more than CAL involved in the murder. Can't say for sure whom the other(s) are though? It'd be nice to know if CAL had buddies visiting him at his home frequently though.

[donna]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES [*]

Me too donna, been missing ya and hope all is well.

That really does tighten the time line as we have discussed for anyone believing Cesar did it all alone. Hmmm....

I see room for Cesar to come back and start coming up with the information they may or may not need to NAIL IT DOWN IMO.

jmo [/*]

Hi, CANDY!
Yes, that is certainly a tight timeline! I cannot understand how he could have accomplished all he had to have done in that timeframe alone.

I wonder if CAL will nail it down, or if he will even talk before trial? I am so looking forward this trial, and hearing what CAL's attorney's say in his defense in court!

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10 [*]

Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished. [/*]

Especially since he says they believe she was killed the evening of the 14th. And I agree with what you said as well!

Originally posted by strick10 [*]

Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished. [/*]

I agree with that now. What gave me pause is the missing clothes from the waist down on Maria's body. At that time, if he raped her again, the time line was getting to be impossible.

I believe he got rid of the car by moving it to the parking lot 3/4 mile away. From the beginning I have believed he had to move the car close by temporarily. If it was that exact parking lot is my speculation. It could have been somewhere else.

I think his clean up after the murder was the moving of the car, and blood by quickly washing most of it and covering some with items in the garage. I think he might have placed the body under the pool wrapped up in the old comforter or he could have placed it in the pool.

He would have had to bury her quickly after that, within the next couple of days, because of the smell getting worse the more days pass.

I believe at first he did what he had to do to cover this from Christina. Over the next couple of days he completed his clean up.

All of this post is MOO.

[donna]

Originally posted by strick10 [*]

Carry on... I've always thought there was more than CAL involved in the murder. Can't say for sure whom the other(s) are though? It'd be nice to know if CAL had buddies visiting him at his home frequently though. [/*]

Hi, strick10!

I do not feel like CAL acted alone either. We do know he had several buddies at his home for bonfires tho! Wonder how many attended.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]

Good Morning Cryme!

I don't know. I wasn't aware that the family or an attorney participated in the death certificate. I always thought that was issued strictly from a medical examiner's information or of course if it is from natural causes the doctor in care of the deceased can sign the death certificate.....at least in my state.

I think there is a time window of 10 days after knowledge of death to file the DC. However it can happen much sooner than the 10 days...depending on the urgency. When was Maria and Gabriel buried?

imoo [/*]

But the medical examiner couldn't have provided the information such as place of birth, mother's name, social security number, etc....

That info had to come from a family member or someone representing the family.

The autopsy doesn't list a date of death. I question why the 16th is even given, being that the family says the 15th, and LE says the 14th. Where is the 16th gleaned from?

Originally posted by donna [*]

Hi, strick10!

I do not feel like CAL acted alone either. We do know he had several buddies at his home for bonfires tho! Wonder how many attended. [/*]

Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box [*]

Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo [/*]

No they wouldn't. And you can rest assured on that.

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]

No they wouldn't. And you can rest assured on that.

[/*]

Really, how would you know that?

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]

No they wouldn't. And you can rest assured on that.

[/*]

IA...what authorities believe and what they can prove is 2 very different things. They may believe/suspect Cesar had help but unless they have probable cause they can't do anything.

Originally posted by caejde [*]

IA...what authorities believe and what they can prove is 2 very different things. They may believe/suspect Cesar had help but unless they have probable cause they can't do anything. [/*]

The point is they have no probable cause. The friend at Lowe's, Christina, if a friend was at Cesar's house that helped and still there when Christina got home she would have told police. No one. The neighbors didn't mention any visitors there.

jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006 [*]

But the medical examiner couldn't have provided the information such as place of birth, mother's name, social security number, etc....

That info had to come from a family member or someone representing the family.

The autopsy doesn't list a date of death. I question why the 16th is even given, being that the family says the 15th, and LE says the 14th. Where is the 16th gleaned from?



[/*]

Wouldn't that be on file through a birth certificate or the MC record.

I know when I received the death certificate on my father I had not given them any of his personal information such as where he was born/DOB/DOD nor his mother's maiden name yet when I received the DC that information was on there.

imoo

[donna]

CAL would have probably gotten blood on himself. He also would have had to have cleaning supplies. Also, what did he use to cover up the smell of blood? Did he wash his clothes and his cleaning rags?
All of the rushing around he would have had to do, then appear to be calm, cool, and collected when Christina came in from the Christmas party?
As for a friend helping him, he would have to trust that friend to never say a word. When someone other than the actual murderer knows about it, it is a liability for the murderer. If CAL had help, I hope that person decides to talk. Chances of that are slim, IMO, after all this time.

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box [*]

I agree with that now. What gave me pause is the missing clothes from the waist down on Maria's body. At that time, if he raped her again, the time line was getting to be impossible.

I believe he got rid of the car by moving it to the parking lot 3/4 mile away. From the beginning I have believed he had to move the car close by temporarily. If it was that exact parking lot is my speculation. It could have been somewhere else.

I think his clean up after the murder was the moving of the car, and blood by quickly washing most of it and covering some with items in the garage. I think he might have placed the body under the pool wrapped up in the old comforter or he could have placed it in the pool.

He would have had to bury her quickly after that, within the next couple of days, because of the smell getting worse the more days pass.

I believe at first he did what he had to do to cover this from Christina. Over the next couple of days he completed his clean up.

All of this post is MOO. [/*]

Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything?

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]

Wouldn't that be on file through a birth certificate or the MC record.

I know when I received the death certificate on my father I had not given them any of his personal information such as where he was born/DOB/DOD nor his mother's maiden name yet when I received the DC that information was on there.

imoo [/*]

That information is given to the funeral home by the family. jmo

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box [*]

Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo [/*]

Maybe not. LE has to leave their options open. I rest assured of that!

[gaelicpeas]

I think the timeline is even tighter than 5:30 to 7:00. IF we can believe CL's "novellas" (which, I agree, is a big IF), then he went with ML to help her buy the bus ticket. That, according to the bus station attendant, was "around 5". Then, CL says that ML came back to his house "later that evening".

If he helped her buy the bus ticket, then I am assuming that he knew she bought it for the 15th. The bus station attendant says ML drove away - we don't know if she drove away immediately, or waited around to see if she could get on the 5:20 bus only to find out it was full (my assumption).

So, if she drove away immediately, then she would have been right behind CL, and to me, that isn't "later in the evening" - that is more like she came "right back" to the house.

Anyway (sorry this is rambling!), to me, she either left the bus station at 5:20 or 5:25, arriving at CL's around 6:00... or she went somewhere else (maybe for dinner?), and then showed up at CL's house "later that evening", putting her at CL's house even later than 6:00.

All JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by donna [*]

Maybe not. LE has to leave their options open. I rest assured of that!

[/*]

Wise woman donna, and I am not betting the farm on it being wrapped up tight either.

JMO.

Hopefully Cesar and Christina will be talking it up when he is captured. AGAIN, JMO.

Originally posted by strick10 [*]
Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything? [/*]

6:05 to 6:30 wraps Maria in an old comforter and puts her under or in the pool.

6:30 to 6:45 wipes up any visable blood with water and covers with boxes.

6:45 to 7:00p throws his clothes in a trash bag along with Maria's for disposal later.

7:00 pm jumps in shower where he is when Christina gets home.

Next two days finishes burial and clean up.

jmo

[donna]

Originally posted by strick10 [*]
Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything? [/*]

Well, CAL would have to clean himself up and dispose of the cleaning rags/towels, and clean the blood up. He probably used a garden hose for the floor of the garage. That is what caused the pooling under the plastic containers in the garage, IMO.
All of your list, plus cleaning himself up, would take time. More time than he had before CSL got home, IMO.