History does matter

[walton]

The FLDS has a lot of history behind them. They are a strong people and they are a proud group.

In order to better understand some of what is going on it is really important that people understand what they went thru 50 years ago- 75 years ago and what their ancestors went thru 100 years ago.


Pat Bagley from Utah has shared some of that history here: http://historytogo.utah.gov/salt_lak...une/index.html

[walton]

Warren Jeffs did not come up with the idea of this compound overnight. He had it built with the idea of the Nauvoo Temple from Illinois in mind.

Even though the FLDS and the LDS are different the FLDS use some of the original teachings of the LDS as their basis to do the things they do. The LDS Church today has changed some of those practices and no longer practice Polygamy.

Here is a little history about the Nauvoo Temple:

http://www.nauvootemple.org/Loss.htm

[walton]

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/

The Pilot has taken many pictures of the compound since it started. The archive can take you from the begining to what it is now.

In some of these photos you will see you will see young girls and small infants out in the fields.

In a couple of photos you will see young boys doing work on the buildings. Some of them even on heavy equipment.

Sadly there have been some accidents out there and they have even had to bury their own. I don't know if the graves are marked or not.

this is all a very sad story.
these men hide behind their god so
they can use & abuse these children & women
& they get rich off of them.
they need to be stopped.
these men are sick,evil & twisted.
this is a cult. an evil cult.
they brainwash the women & children.
lock them up & never let them back out.

A for the children & women that are within these groups

[walton]

Wandering posted this link up on the link thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...arnscultstatus

Lalich told LiveScience she definitely thinks the Texas compound should be called a cult. "If you've got a group that's abusing hundreds and hundreds of women and children, let's call it what it is," she said.


Another scientist weighed in on the cult-or-not question. "From what I can understand of this movement in Texas and other places, is that it would probably fall under new religious movement or cult movement," said John Barnshaw of the University of Delaware, who studies collective behaviors such as social movements and cultish behaviors.




I say cult. Some say Religious movement.

There should be an assigned task force looking into all of these :
http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html

[awareness]

For anyone wanting a true historical viewpoint on the origins of the Mormon Religion, including a very thorough biography of its founder Joseph Smith, I highly recommend reading No Man Knows My History - by Fawn Brodie.

Ms. Brodie was a Mormon herself and researched the beginnings of the religion using Temple documents in SLC, public records, stretching back from the first days in New York, to Independence, Navoo including after Joseph & Hyrum Smith were shot dead and Brigham Young moved the LDS to SLC. It also includes what Emma Smith (Joseph's first wife) and their sons did after his death.

It covers Joseph Smith as a boy, as a "treasure seeker", when he founded the Mormon Religion, married Emma Hale, their children, his extramarital affairs which lead to the revlation on Plural Marriage, etc.

I imagine this book is #1 of "what not to read" if you're a Mormon. Jon Krakauer's "Under The Banner Of Heaven" is probably #2.

PS - my apologies if Im offending any Mormons. I know a few Mormon's and they are all very good people. I just personally find the religion to have very shady beginnings.

JMO/IMO

[walton]

Awareness do you know what times these people were facing when they seeked Joseph Smith out?

I find it incredible that such a large group of people had such faith in one man that they followed him from place to place and then followed Brigham Young all the way to Utah.

[awareness]

From what Fawn Brodie's book says, people came from all walks of life to join LDS/Joseph Smith. The book states many were drawn to Joseph's charismatic(sp) personality, he was a great speaker, an actor if you will. Others were drawn in by recruiters that were sent out all over the country/world and converted. The church lost many members after the revelation on polygamy was revealed because it was revolting to some - in addition to it not originally being a part of the Book of Mormon. It seems the group would move from place to place... after they wore out their welcome, they'd just move on. They moved to Utah when it wasn't a state yet (a territory only I think) to escape the long arm of the law, after Joseph & Hyrum Smith were shot, under the guidance of Brigham Young. Emma Smith did not accompany them, she re-married later on to a non-Morman. Joseph/Emma's son (Joseph Smith III) was the first Prophet–President of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - an organization that didn't condone polygamy.

Joseph had the "Doctorine & Covenants" (aka D&C) for his 'additions' to the Book of Mormon. Joseph claimed they were directed by divine sources. JMO its like he used the D&C to alter his religion as he saw fit. The revelation on plural marriage is in the D&C (or was, until it was removed). Only the "Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Translator" was allowed to add to the D&C. When Brigham Young was Prophet after Joseph's death, his only revalation added to the D&C which was very short, was stating the Mormon's should move to Utah.

From wikipedia regarding the plural marriage D&C:

Polygamy was practiced by Joseph Smith as early as 1833. Other church leaders began practicing polygamy in the 1840s. The practice was not publicly announced until 1852, some five years after the Mormons arrived in Utah, and eight years after Smith's death. The doctrine authorizing polygamy was published in Doctrine and Covenants in 1876, although the revelation itself is dated 1843.

What gets to the heart of the FLDS movement is, they strongly beleive that the church made a huge tremendous error when they denounced the plural marriage D&C. They felt it was basically sacreligous to go against the word of their founder Joseph Smith and truly see themselves as the only TRUE Mormons, ones that follow the faith. Brigham Young, the second President, also was a polygamist and vowed to not allow the territory of Utah to become a state until polygamy was legally allowed by the Federal Government. It was almost on the brink of an all out war between the Mormons & US Gov't before they finally backed down. Over time, the Gov't became increasingly alarmed at how much the Mormon's controlled in Utah - including the malitia (armed forces). The Mountain Meadow's massacre didn't help things either (Mormon's dressed/acting like Native American Indians surprise attacked a wagon train en route to the West Coast, killing them all and pludering their goods).

You should read Ms. Brodie's book, its truly facinating. IMO the religion was such a con by a man (Joseph Smith) who'd already been virtually convicted of fraud for "treasure seeking". Aside of Scientology, IMO there's no other religion with as much info about its creation. Its not like we can research court papers on Jesus, Allah or Buddah (sp).

JMO/IMO

[Shells2]

Originally posted by awareness [*]For anyone wanting a true historical viewpoint on the origins of the Mormon Religion, including a very thorough biography of its founder Joseph Smith, I highly recommend reading No Man Knows My History - by Fawn Brodie.

Ms. Brodie was a Mormon herself and researched the beginnings of the religion using Temple documents in SLC, public records, stretching back from the first days in New York, to Independence, Navoo including after Joseph & Hyrum Smith were shot dead and Brigham Young moved the LDS to SLC. It also includes what Emma Smith (Joseph's first wife) and their sons did after his death.

It covers Joseph Smith as a boy, as a "treasure seeker", when he founded the Mormon Religion, married Emma Hale, their children, his extramarital affairs which lead to the revlation on Plural Marriage, etc.

I imagine this book is #1 of "what not to read" if you're a Mormon. Jon Krakauer's "Under The Banner Of Heaven" is probably #2.

PS - my apologies if Im offending any Mormons. I know a few Mormon's and they are all very good people. I just personally find the religion to have very shady beginnings.

JMO/IMO [/*]

Thanks for the book suggestions - I have been doing a lot of reading on the LDS religion lately and I am looking forward to reading both of those books..

[awareness]

Krakauer's book quotes Brodie's book frequently - after reading Under The Banner of Heaven, I bought No Man Knows My History. Both really great books IMO. Under The Banner of Heaven has more of a history of the FDLS, there are a few different sects of FLDS after all. Jon's book was the result of his investigative work of the 1984 murder of Brenda and baby Erica Lafferty by her brothers in law Ron and Dan Lafferty. The Lafferty family was always very religious, strict LDS, but as the boys got older they started delving into an FDLS lifestyle more and more.

Really interesting stuff. In fact I think Im going to start re-reading Under The Banner of Heaven, its been a while since I read it.

JMO/IMO

[walton]

Originally posted by awareness [*]Krakauer's book quotes Brodie's book frequently - after reading Under The Banner of Heaven, I bought No Man Knows My History. Both really great books IMO. Under The Banner of Heaven has more of a history of the FDLS, there are a few different sects of FLDS after all. Jon's book was the result of his investigative work of the 1984 murder of Brenda and baby Erica Lafferty by her brothers in law Ron and Dan Lafferty. The Lafferty family was always very religious, strict LDS, but as the boys got older they started delving into an FDLS lifestyle more and more.

Really interesting stuff. In fact I think Im going to start re-reading Under The Banner of Heaven, its been a while since I read it.

JMO/IMO [/*]

I thought Jon Krakauers book was great. Do you remember the part about the Danites (Avenging Angels)?

I haven't read Fawn Brodies book, but it really looks interesting.

I've read a lot about the history of LDS Church and then the split when Brigham Young brought the group to Utah.

But I am also curious as to what these people were thinking/doing prior to meeting up with Joseph Smith. I don't think it was just Joseph Smiths personality and charm that woooed them over. I think they had to have been facing some awful hard times and were seeking out something. Don't you?

i dont hold anything against any true mormons. its their right to choose what religion they want. the LDS are the good one's.
they no longer believe in polygamy. they washed their hands of it years & years ago & they do not believe in marrying children off to older adult men.

the FLDS are the rotten one's. they use their religion to suit their evil, sick & twisted needs. their greed to have power.
they are not true mormons. true mormons of the LDS washed their hands of the FLDS.

[awareness]

I agree, I know a few Mormon's and they're all really great people. I personally wouldn't hold faith in Joseph Smith, but they do and hey - as I said they're upstanding folks.

I believe I mispoke a bit a few posts up when I said the Book of Mormon erased Josephs D&C #132 about Polygamy at one point. That's not true turns out, my apologies. Its still there.

The second President/Prophet was Brigham Young, who died 5 months to the day after his adopted son John Lee was executed for carrying out the Mountain Meadows Massacre (he was the patsy, the only person to be tried). John said Brigham would die if John was telling the truth when he said he wasn't the only culpable party. Lee said according to a family memoire "If I am guilty of the crime for which I am convicted, I will go down and out and never be heard of again. If I am not guilty, Brigham Young will die within one year! Yes, within six months.". Lee was executed 3/23/1877, Brigham Young died on 8/23/1877.

The third President/Prophet was John Taylor, who was gravely wounded in the shootout at the Carthage jail when Joseph & Hyrum Smith were killed. He staunchly supported Polygamy. John Taylor died (around 7/1887) while in hiding from the Federal Gov't after an arrest warrant was issued in 1885.

The fourth President/Prophet of LDS, Wilford Woodruff, recognized with regret that the Kingdom of God had no choice but to conform to Washingon demands. On 9/24/1890 he called together 5 trusted Mormon leaders and told them that God had revaled to him that they had to relinquish Polygamy - much to the shock of the men who'd lead a whole contingent of people willing to die for "the principle".

On 10/6/1890 Woodruff's revelation was written down as The Woodruff Manifesto. It reads in part: "Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise...
And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-Day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land."

But even after that, polygamy still continued, just underground. Eventually it caught wind it was still going on. By the 1920's it was mostly not practiced anymore and most mainstream Mormons were encouraging cohab hunters. Even then, some people beleived that Woodruff's manifesto didnt really erase D&C #132. Also strengthening D&C #132 was the prior President/Prophet's revelation on 9/26/1886 while he was hiding out from federal cohab hunters. John was seeking guidance on wether or not Joseph was right about D&C #132 and this is what John said he got in response:
"Thus saith the Lord All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority... I have not revoked this law (D&C #132) nor will I for it is everlasting and those who enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof, even so Amen."

Furthermore after John revealed the revelation to his Saints on 9/27/1886, he said some will be ostracized for beleiving in it, cast out, because of their integrity to the principle, that some would have to die because of it and woe upon those who do such bad things. Joseph Smith prophesized that "one mighty and strong" will come forth to "set order in the house of God". Frequently you hear these FDLS leaders or wannabes saying they are the one "mighty and strong". Warren Jeffs. Uncle Roy. Brian David Mitchell (Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper). John Hyrum Koyle (The Dream Mine founder). The Prophet Onias. Ron/Dan Lafferty... they all thought THEY were the one "mighty and strong".

Walton - yes I remember the Avenging Angels part... I think they were part of the LeBaron clan? Also Kenyon Blackmore - another sicko who took his 2nd & 3rd wife (half sisters) with their children down to Central/South America... and he impregnated Evangeline a daughter from his 1st marriage (wife Annie Blackmore left him eventually). Thankfully she miscarried, Kenyon cast her out after she couldnt get pregnant again. I think she was 15. All in the name of this "religion".

JMO/IMO

[Shells2]

Originally posted by johnielee333 [*]i dont hold anything against any true mormons. its their right to choose what religion they want. the LDS are the good one's.
they no longer believe in polygamy. they washed their hands of it years & years ago & they do not believe in marrying children off to older adult men.

the FLDS are the rotten one's. they use their religion to suit their evil, sick & twisted needs. their greed to have power.
they are not true mormons. true mormons of the LDS washed their hands of the FLDS. [/*]

I believed the same thing johnilee - but then I began doing a lot of research into the LDS practices for a specific reason and this is not a religion that I can say I find acceptable for many reasons. It is a horrible, wishy washy brain washing religion filled with lies and secrets and I just think it is wrong.

I believe everyone has a choice to choose what they believe though..

[walton]

Texas - SE

It might be easier if you just explain the difference between the LDS and the FLDS.




Just a thought.

[walton]

To better understand some of the FLDS practices a person should know a little about their current leader/leaders and how it has come to this point. jmo

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intel...le.jsp?pid=877 This is an older article but very informative.

He began researching the FLDS, and what he would learn would astonish him: stories of "blood atonement," child brides, rabid racism, multiple wives, and a secretive, religious dictator.

There are a couple of videos out there that really are worth watching.

Banking on Heaven- http://www.bankingonheaven.com/

September Dawn- A film about the Mountains Meadow Massacre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qxsaBkAiU