Tuesday * 03-18-08 * a.m.

[henry]

good morning & a big pot of coffee is on for all those that celebrated last nite - lots of good & bad things to party about . . . and glad everyone is sleeping while i changed my sig line this morning 5 times. i always thought it proper etiquette and respectful to respond to those that quoted a post of mine . . . hah - not going to happen anymore in the foreseeable future as so many get caught up in the banning and shutdown.

today's fbi check-in day and zippo on the home page as well as the charlotte office . . .
http://charlotte.fbi.gov/

also, i'd like to direct your attention to captain rick sutherland's response to round 2 questions . . . although pres. peas is developing their state of the union roadmap theory(ies), please post your thoughts . . . even if it's not a whole scenario but rather just a point in time.
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/sh...hreadid=326733

and here's the theories thread . . . if you DON'T want your theory to go to rsutherland, pls pm either me or nuttintodo or post on the theory thread. . . otherwise the assumption will be made that it's okay to send
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/sh...hreadid=324292

[henry]

okay gpeas . . . i'm also tired of talking to myself on last nite's thread this morning so i decided to carry my last thought over here regarding the lack of clothing, if that is the case . . . perhaps it's as simple as there was evidence on her clothing linking the murderer to the crime . . . and decided to get rid of the incriminating evidence = maria's clothing . . . imo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by henry [*]okay gpeas . . . i'm also tired of talking to myself on last nite's thread this morning so i decided to carry my last thought over here regarding the lack of clothing, if that is the case . . . perhaps it's as simple as there was evidence on her clothing linking the murderer to the crime . . . and decided to get rid of the incriminating evidence = maria's clothing . . . imo [/*]

Well I actually could understand.....that clearly written post.

What a great and simple theory.....you could be right.......I don't think anyone thought of that as yet......sure makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that he sexually assaulted her that day....KISS!

[SavannahStar]

The item of baby clothing really has me stumped. No guesses I've heard thus far make any sense to me. I don't know WHY it was there (at the house, not just in the pit). I don't buy that he was luring her over there with it. I can't see how she would have brought it over with her and INTO the house. I also don't buy the idea that if CSL was involved that would explain it (rage over CL's baby with ML). Nothing makes sense to me. Something is really missing in the equation.

Would like to hear other posters' ideas....more of them...

Good morning everyone. Yes, that single, little baby item really is a puzzler. I hope they have been able to
trace back and see who bought it and when.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami [*]This is the second topic in Mimi's post from yesterday:



Something like this could have happened. I find this theory just as believeable (actually more believeable) as Maria buying the outfit and then dropping in on Cesar (who just coincidentally was sitting at home at the time, while his wife was at HIS Christmas party) to show him his Baby's new clothes.

JMO [/*]

Only thing with that theory is it depicts a VERY pre-planned murder and one of my basic beliefs is that the murder was a rage killing, "heat of the moment." I just will never go along with the murder being planned out in advance, especially with another unknown person in on the whole thing.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by SavannahStar [*]

Only thing with that theory is it depicts a VERY pre-planned murder and one of my basic beliefs is that the murder was a rage killing, "heat of the moment." I just will never go along with the murder being planned out in advance, especially with another unknown person in on the whole thing.

[/*]

I will agree with that, meaning the more people that know about something the less likely it would remain secret for very long.

(Unless, of course, one of the two secret keepers is no longer alive.)

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami [*]I was thinking last night about WHY Cesar would have buried Maria & Baby in his own back yard, just feet away from his own child.

I always have thought it would have been wiser to have driven her body, in her car, far from his house and park it in an isolated area, so when it was found, it wouldn't point to him like bodies in your backyard would.

But then, I realized that it was the Baby's DNA he was trying to destroy, because if Maria's body had been located and the test determined that Cesar was the father, he was going to look very suspicious to the Corps, to whom he had lied about the sexual contact.

I guess he kept the bodies near him, so he could continuously burn them in an effort to speed up the decomposition so much that DNA would not be traceable.

I hope he didn't succeed. All jmo [/*]

It's always bothered me as well, Sami, why he would kill and bury/burn her at his own home. You raise some interesting points....IMO.....you just may have figured it out.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Sami [*]I was thinking last night about WHY Cesar would have buried Maria & Baby in his own back yard, just feet away from his own child.

I always have thought it would have been wiser to have driven her body, in her car, far from his house and park it in an isolated area, so when it was found, it wouldn't point to him like bodies in your backyard would.

But then, I realized that it was the Baby's DNA he was trying to destroy, because if Maria's body had been located and the test determined that Cesar was the father, he was going to look very suspicious to the Corps, to whom he had lied about the sexual contact.

I guess he kept the bodies near him, so he could continuously burn them in an effort to speed up the decomposition so much that DNA would not be traceable.

I hope he didn't succeed. All jmo [/*]

Good morning Sami Funny you should bring this up because I really thought that also after reading the report that he was trying to destroy DNA of the baby but since i am not totally sure of all that is required to get DNA i gave it up.. I think it is very possible.. Does anyone know since the umbilical cord was still attached although weathered etc.. and old...could they get DNA from that..?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by old_lady [*]

He didn't have enough time to move her anywhere further away before Christina was due home. KISS jmoo [/*]

Ah.....yes.......that too....

[henry]

imo i think he buried her on or after 12/16 (from the lowe's purchase) . . . that was his 1st priority - to get rid of the body . . . and then he checked on her before 12/24 and noticed that not much had happened . . . so he had a bonfire/barbecue . . . and then realized there was that bag of "evidence" in his house/car/truck/garage . . . and redug & dumped some of the items in . . . and then had another fire (iirc there were 2 fires???) jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by SavannahStar [*]

Only thing with that theory is it depicts a VERY pre-planned murder and one of my basic beliefs is that the murder was a rage killing, "heat of the moment." I just will never go along with the murder being planned out in advance, especially with another unknown person in on the whole thing.

[/*]

Good Morning!

My theory on that part has not changed either, SS. I also am not convinced that Maria was lured or forced to come there. I still say if there was evidence of that then they would have gladly charged him with kidnapping.

Since we do not know who purchased the baby item, I really dont know if it had anything to do with the crime before it happened. She may have brought it in to show him or he could have purchased it for Gabriel. I do think with the technology they have today if the label was traceable LE has those answers by now. I am sure LE went through all recent credit card transactions on both Maria and Cesar. If they have found the store where it was purchased then again I think they have verified whether it was ML or CL and when.

I am like you, even the autopsy report and diagram seems to show that whatever happened ............happened right out of no where and she didnt even have time to deflect the blow or blows. I still very much think this was far from planned but something triggered this extreme heat of passion after Maria and Cesar were together in his home for the second time that day.

I do believe there were two trips made and imo the first one went okay but when she returned something ignited the passion that had been rising in both of them for months on end.

imoo

Good morn Sam. I find Mimi's theory exceptionally REASONABLE. I would like to add my thought that the total destruction of the limbs and front abdominal area could be
explained by the addition of an excelerant in those specific
areas, especially if it was just squirted on quickly.

I tend to think that a fire hot enough to totally destroy limbs, would also be hot enough to completely destroy clothing below the waist, especially if it was soaked in the excelerant. IMO.

I also wonder if they can determine if any charcoal briquets were added to this fire at any point in time?

There's not a doubt in my mind this coward was attempting to
annihilate all traces of that baby.

[martha]

I can;t help but wonder if they had sex before he killed her? is this wrong to wonder?

Originally posted by SavannahStar [*]The item of baby clothing really has me stumped. No guesses I've heard thus far make any sense to me. I don't know WHY it was there (at the house, not just in the pit). I don't buy that he was luring her over there with it. I can't see how she would have brought it over with her and INTO the house. I also don't buy the idea that if CSL was involved that would explain it (rage over CL's baby with ML). Nothing makes sense to me. Something is really missing in the equation.

Would like to hear other posters' ideas....more of them... [/*]

I hadn't given much thought to the baby stuff before, and this is sort of 'off the wall thinking, BUT (what IF) they (cesar & maria) had decided to run off together. (bear with me, this is far out lol)

Maria, had written a goodbye note just before leaving with cesar - she started into labour - got scared and went to his house in a panic - labour intensified.. he HAD to help her like 'NOW' - CSL came home unexpectedly, and went into a rage.

This of course supports my theory that
CSL did the killing. The cover up then began. (baby stuff)? just something she happened to have in her car.

Like I said ALL just speculation.

[jace]

Okay, I'm not really good at this but reading over the posts something popped in my head. I'm sure someone here can discount it.

CL had been telling people that his wife was pregnant (or at least there is rumor of that). ML is buried without her lower clothing. Could CL have tried to deliver ML's baby after hitting her in the head? His wife couldn't have a baby while at the Christmas party so passing it off as theirs wouldn't have worked. Could he have been trying to deliver the baby so he could get rid of any DNA that might point to him as the father?

Sorry, I know I'm an amateur at this but I thought I'd post it anyway.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by SavannahStar [*]

It's always bothered me as well, Sami, why he would kill and bury/burn her at his own home. You raise some interesting points....IMO.....you just may have figured it out. [/*]

To me it shows more chaos even after the fact. I think he knew he didn't have anytime to take her body eslewhere. His truck had an open bed... how would he carry her body where no one would see him with a large bundle in the back, especially knowing the nosy neighbors they had?

So he buried her in what he thought was the most private place he thought he had imo. But by burying her there and having a spot in his yard that looked like a freshly dug grave he disquised that area by building his bonfires for his holiday parties over that same area.

He certainly had thoughts when it came to getting rid of the body yet that is after the fact and imo it still does not show premeditation in the actual murder only the aftermath.

imoo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

Okay, SS, so does that denote some form of premeditation to you?

It was getting too close for comfort, with the Baby almost due. He needed to act soon or she might go into labor and then it would be too late.

. . . . Or was he just sitting there waiting and the opportunity just coincidentally dropped into his lap? [/*]

Yep....it does....I figured that out too late after I posted and read old lady's post.

So confusing! I think one thing, then something else comes along to make me change my mind.

I definitely do NOT believe this murder was planned, though.

Originally posted by Sami [*]
Not so far out, lilCanuck.

Though I don't totally agree with this theory, there are posters here who do think something like this could have happened.

Glad you're posting here! [/*]

Thank you Sami, I've been reading here for some time now, and seldom feel I have much to contribute. Gotta admit.. this
case is full of mystery still. I sure do feel all the posters here might well come up with some fresh ideas for the investigators.

[Marcia3]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

I believe like you, that there was a catalyst. But I have trouble with Cesar just happening to be sitting there by himself on Friday evening with his wife at HIS party alone.

Something seems planned to me, rather than coincidental. JMO [/*]

Good morning all! Haven't had time to post here much lately...and things are not slowing down so I'm only here for a bit, but wanted to respond to Sami.

IMO it may have been a combination of elements...you know, CAL stewed all evening, maybe added to his aggitation with alcohol, and perhaps a friend/sympathizer thrown into the scenario. Maybe the initial contact with Maria was to simply harrass and initimidate into leaving town, but things got out of hand when she refused to cooperate.

It's still very murky to me, and the questions raised regarding her clothing and the baby item just have me scratching my head.

Just want to mention that even though the arms and legs were burned away from her body at varying lengths, some of the bone fragments from these areas were recovered. In the autopsy report it says that 6 of the 8 bags sent to the ME with the body contained "various fragments of long bone, extremities, and skull."

It sounds like they recovered at least some pieces of arm and/or leg bones, and hand and/or foot bones (the extremities). There is no detail as to anything relating to these bones (other than injury to the skull), so this doesn't mean anything in particular. Just making the observation that at least some bones, or pieces of them, from the burned-off limbs were recovered, FWIW.

gtg - good luck everyone - will be back to read you all later

[hinman]

Originally posted by old_lady [*]

I agree, it was not planned. It is a murder of opportunity. Maria went there. jmoo

Edit to add. If it was planned, Maria would have been murdered somewhere else and ended up in the woods somewhere. Maybe never to be found.

jmoo [/*]

I also am not leaning on it being planned, but I do wonder some times.

Not all planned murders happen in the woods, Look at the girl who killed her parents. There are a lot of planned murders where the murderer buries the victim right in their yard or field.

I wonder if it makes them feel safer, the murderer feels they know if anyone is catching on with the victim being so close.

[gaelicpeas]

Good morning, everybody

There are three things that make me lean toward a planned murder:

1. Sheriff Brown himself said there was evidence "the whole thing was planned, including the getaway" (my paraphrasing as I don't have the link).

2. The "coincidence" of ML being at CL's house while CSL was at the party.

3. The baby clothing in the pit.

The one thing that makes me lean toward a rage killing (unplanned) is that the firepit materials were bought after ML was supposedly murdered. Of course, we (meaning posters) don't have any real evidence that ML was actually murdered on Dec 14 other than LE has stated they believe that is the day (also, to me, that is kind of an iffy statement and does not imply a firm conviction that Dec 14 was the day).

Arghhh.... so many questions about this case...

[hinman]

Originally posted by old_lady [*]What I am posting is part of my theory should I write one. Just saying....... [/*]

Write one. I would love to read it and all theories help.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Charlotte [*]Just want to mention that even though the arms and legs were burned away from her body at varying lengths, some of the bone fragments from these areas were recovered. In the autopsy report it says that 6 of the 8 bags sent to the ME with the body contained "various fragments of long bone, extremities, and skull."

It sounds like they recovered at least some pieces of arm and/or leg bones, and hand and/or foot bones (the extremities). There is no detail as to anything relating to these bones (other than injury to the skull), so this doesn't mean anything in particular. Just making the observation that at least some bones, or pieces of them, from the burned-off limbs were recovered, FWIW. [/*]

Good point, Charlotte.

[Mimi428]

Morning all,

I'm gone at least until tom. evening. G-daughter's horse got spooked last night, stomped right on her foot & her foot is FX'd.

Also got some stuff going on this week & next w/oncologist for my mom - good thing she lives close to my g-daughter, so not too much running back & forth to be done (I hope)

I didn't get my theory posted to the theory thread, if anyone wants to transfer it over, that is fine with me.

Hope we see Cesar frog marching in handcuffs by the time I return.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by martha [*]I can;t help but wonder if they had sex before he killed her? is this wrong to wonder? [/*]

Good morning martha.

No, it's not wrong to wonder. That said, I wouldn't think so UNLESS they had resumed their relationship months before, but that's JMO and nothing more.

I say it is possible given the autopsy and lack of clothing.

[hinman]

Originally posted by martha [*]I can;t help but wonder if they had sex before he killed her? is this wrong to wonder? [/*]

I don't think it is wrong for you to wonder.

We all wonder about things that might seem unimaginable to others. I feel that if we didn't we would never understand or even figure out what went wrong in this case.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

I agree, Reggie. I think the accelerant was definitely used and caused irreparable damage to the clothing that received the most of it. JMO [/*]

Is there something that confirms an accelerant was used or are you just opining because of the testing done?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Marcia3 [*]

Good morning all! Haven't had time to post here much lately...and things are not slowing down so I'm only here for a bit, but wanted to respond to Sami.

IMO it may have been a combination of elements...you know, CAL stewed all evening, maybe added to his aggitation with alcohol, and perhaps a friend/sympathizer thrown into the scenario. Maybe the initial contact with Maria was to simply harrass and initimidate into leaving town, but things got out of hand when she refused to cooperate.

It's still very murky to me, and the questions raised regarding her clothing and the baby item just have me scratching my head. [/*]

Good to see you again, Marcia! Big ditto on your last sentence!

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

What a sad commentary on a vibrant life.

And how sad that perhaps the only clothes little Gabriel ever had, were left rotting and filthy and charred in a pit that held his Mama's body.

Something so sad about that little Baby outfit. . . .never worn and discarded with its precious owners. [/*]

And even more sad that they didn't even know the gender of the baby.

JMO

[hinman]

Originally posted by SavannahStar [*]

Well I actually could understand.....that clearly written post.

What a great and simple theory.....you could be right.......I don't think anyone thought of that as yet......sure makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that he sexually assaulted her that day....KISS!

[/*]

O/T
I got your cream cheese chicken going in the crock.

I agree what a simple and great theory by Henry.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by AnnieBean [*]

You know we are going to want links to accelerant...but its practically a given he used something on the bonfire, if not Maria herself, isn't it? [/*]

I've never burned anyone with or without clothing, and I don't know if it is required or not, but am waiting to hear about the tests. I haven't seen a report.

JMO.

[Marcia3]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

You have been missed, Marcia.

I definitely think alcohol played a part. I'm also leaning toward a third party involvement. I'm not even convinced that was Cesar at the ATM on the 24th.

I think it might have been an 'unidentified male'. JMO [/*]

Thanks, Sami. I try to keep up by reading every other page of the previous days posts, but was gone all weekend so I'm still working my way thru Saturday thread!

ITA on the third party, which is quite a departure from my earlier theory, which has washed up on the beach...

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by old_lady [*]

You are right. Nothing confirmed just testing being done. imo

Maybe that is just sop on any body burned.

imo [/*]

I think here it might be on any fire related incident where the fire department responds. It seems I read it in every article.

After seeing how quickly some fabrics burn, I don't know if an accelerant would be necessary or not.

JMO.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Sami [*]CANDY, were you opining only about that Mapquest to Cesar's home on last night's thread?

When I read your link, it didn't say anything about Cesar's home, so I assume you were giving a version of 'possibly it could have been to their home'.

I remember, some time ago, a few posters thought the Mapquest might have been to locate a clinic (possibly in El Paso) for having the Baby.

It's strange how fact and opinion get all mixed up, isn't it?

Has it ever been stated, that you have seen, that there was a Mapquest to Cesar's home? TIA [/*]

If you were reading, you received the answer multiple times over, but if you want passive-agressive debate yet again, I'm up for it.

JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

Why do you think he tried to burn them, CANDY? TIA [/*]

At this point without the other reports being in (unless I missed them), I tend to agree with Captain Sutherland's last statement concerning that.

I believe it was another convenient happening as a result of CYA because they were entertaining and the vultures had allegedly been out and the body had to be covered in such a way he wouldn't have to explain anything to anyone.

IF there was an odor, that could figure in too.

JMO.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami [*]CANDY, were you opining only about that Mapquest to Cesar's home on last night's thread?

When I read your link, it didn't say anything about Cesar's home, so I assume you were giving a version of 'possibly it could have been to their home'.

I remember, some time ago, a few posters thought the Mapquest might have been to locate a clinic (possibly in El Paso) for having the Baby.

It's strange how fact and opinion get all mixed up, isn't it?

Has it ever been stated, that you have seen, that there was a Mapquest to Cesar's home? TIA [/*]

I don't think there ever was a Mapquest, period.

(Hate to open up that can of worms again though. )

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by old_lady [*]


I agree. The dirt surrounding the body was no doubt all recovered. Body's take very high temperatures to completely burn to ashes as in cremation.

Anyone know a funeral home director?

Within that dirt will be remains of Maria and clothing if there was any. Especially the hip laying next to the bottom of the pit.

jmoo [/*]

I agree, old lady. I remember the ME talking about the charring of the left thigh. Was the right thigh mentioned? I can't remember, and all the posts of the poster who posted the report are gone, and I can't open PDF files on this computer at my house! Anyway, if it was not charred, I would think there would be clothing remains under her right hip also.

JMO

(Could somebody copy the PDF file of the autopsy report to a Word document or something and then post it in the autopy discussion thread? TIA!)

JMO