Friday ~ 03-14-08 ~ a.m.

[henry]

good morning everyone . . . well, we're on day 64 . . . wonder whether when capt. rick sutherland reviews the questions, he's also checking to see if they have the info . . . kinda like a check & balance list for the investigators?

after reading last nite's discussion, i'm putting myself back into the confused line.

edit: thanks LG for the new ~ !

[marinewife5]

Good morning everyone. Not that i don't enjoy having my morning coffee with ya, but what would really wake me up is locating CL. I cannot believe we have nothing new at this point!

[henry]

good morning mw5 - glad to see you're back . . . perhaps we can ask AB to do some pm cleaning, pls?

edit: i'm hoping ncmostwanted is going to be doing an update pretty soon . . . maybe we should email them some questions?

[strick10]

Morning all! Henry don't you ever sleep!?

[henry]

strick10 - yeah, i do sleep, but in increments - early early early a.m. is my favorite time to be up . . . cause everyone else in our home is sleeping!!!!!

hope cesar's not sleeping well . . . nor xtina . . .

[henry]

one thing i've noticed is that a lot of our short-term memories are going . . . with all the confusing media reports, incorrect info, etc., . . . i should have put this one in my opening remarks . . . maybe we can get a group discount?

The spectacles - which come with a built in camera, display screen and computer brain - can even identify unfamiliar plants or faces.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

[henry]

Originally posted by old_lady [*]

I wish it was only my short term memory that is going. [/*]

hah! and i was thinking this is how LG manages all those links . . . still trying to break/figure out how she does it for LG

[caejde]

Morning everyone! I have to go catch up on last nights post!

[bkwits]

Mornin' all


Still coughing but getting better.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

I'm so glad you're getting better, bkwits! [/*]

TY

Have the questions been submitted yet?

[caejde]

Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive." We don't know that and evidently the DA knows that as well since he stated that. Don't you think investigators are saying "Man, if we would have done "this" then "this" wouldn't have happened"? I'm sorry, but for anyone who thinks they could have done a better job or prevent any crime from happening, then well they need to become a police officer or go work for NCIS then. We, as the general public, don't know what all was done or not done. I'm sure when Durham got home, he didn't notice anything amiss in the home to suspect something bad happened to Maria. People-civilian and military-do leave on their own for no explanation. At the time and with all the information they had, all indications pointed to Maria leaving on her own free will.

And yes, when Marines go UA, the Marine Corps doesn't come looking for you. So, yes, they did take that extra step to send someone to her home and to call her. And because of her being pregnant, they took that extra step to list her as a deserter. Now, I don't know what all that entails because I don't know. But I do know that listing someone as a deserter does go to law enforcement but I don't know if it's nationwide or what.

Also, Laurean being a flight risk was brought up again. And as it has been stated by NCIS and Marine Corps, based on his SRB and him showing up from work/leave/liberty in the past, the COMMANDER had no reason to place him in pre-trial restraint...therefore he was not considered a flight risk due to the rape allegations...nothing more, nothing less.

As to the poster, not sure who brought it up so forgive me, about why the Marines could get her personal effects in a home off base. That's standard procedure. Anytime a Marine's gear is left unsecured, it is standard procedure based on Marine Corps Order to inventory and secure all their items-uniforms, civilian clothes, shampoo, toiletries, CD's, money, video games, etc, etc... Everything is inventoried, boxed up and sent to the supply warehouse where it is put in a secured area that only certain people have access to.

Also, I'm sorry but if my child went missing, noone would tell me what to do or not to do. I would do it anyway. If Durham would have told me to not contact anyone, I would tell him to kiss my butt that was my child and I would do it anyway.

Sorry for such a long post, but I am just really frustrated right now. Not at anyone in particular but just this whole case.

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits [*]Mornin' all


Still coughing but getting better. [/*]

Morning! Glad youre feeling better!

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde [*]Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive." We don't know that and evidently the DA knows that as well since he stated that. Don't you think investigators are saying "Man, if we would have done "this" then "this" wouldn't have happened"? I'm sorry, but for anyone who thinks they could have done a better job or prevent any crime from happening, then well they need to become a police officer or go work for NCIS then. We, as the general public, don't know what all was done or not done. I'm sure when Durham got home, he didn't notice anything amiss in the home to suspect something bad happened to Maria. People-civilian and military-do leave on their own for no explanation. At the time and with all the information they had, all indications pointed to Maria leaving on her own free will.

And yes, when Marines go UA, the Marine Corps doesn't come looking for you. So, yes, they did take that extra step to send someone to her home and to call her. And because of her being pregnant, they took that extra step to list her as a deserter. Now, I don't know what all that entails because I don't know. But I do know that listing someone as a deserter does go to law enforcement but I don't know if it's nationwide or what.

Also, Laurean being a flight risk was brought up again. And as it has been stated by NCIS and Marine Corps, based on his SRB and him showing up from work/leave/liberty in the past, the COMMANDER had no reason to place him in pre-trial restraint...therefore he was not considered a flight risk due to the rape allegations...nothing more, nothing less.

As to the poster, not sure who brought it up so forgive me, about why the Marines could get her personal effects in a home off base. That's standard procedure. Anytime a Marine's gear is left unsecured, it is standard procedure based on Marine Corps Order to inventory and secure all their items-uniforms, civilian clothes, shampoo, toiletries, CD's, money, video games, etc, etc... Everything is inventoried, boxed up and sent to the supply warehouse where it is put in a secured area that only certain people have access to.

Also, I'm sorry but if my child went missing, noone would tell me what to do or not to do. I would do it anyway. If Durham would have told me to not contact anyone, I would tell him to kiss my butt that was my child and I would do it anyway.

Sorry for such a long post, but I am just really frustrated right now. Not at anyone in particular but just this whole case. [/*]

I skimmed over last night's posts and I thought some were suspicious of Durham, I didn't quite get that. Did you?

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits [*]

I skimmed over last night's posts and I thought some were suspicious of Durham, I didn't quite get that. Did you? [/*]

No I wasn't suspicious over Durham. I think he was trying to look out for a fellow Marine (Maria) and didn't want her to get in trouble for being UA.

But my first reaction as well as my husband's when we heard about this was "she's dead". My husband was like if she's testifying about something she witnessed-and especially a superior officer-she's dead. Of course at the time we were thinking superior officer being a rank of Captain, Major, or above. Not an enlisted person. But then I did have my doubts when other stuff started coming out and thought maybe she was just UA.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Sami [*]

If I remember right, Durham notified the MC that he was being deployed and, after such time as he left, the house would no longer be available to them.

I thought that was why they inventoried and packed and stored her stuff when they did. Had he not been leaving, and since they were totally convinced she was just UA, they might have waited awhile longer, to see if she returned. JMO, though, as I have no idea the time period they usually wait for such a retrieval.

Caedje, maybe you know? [/*]

Normal protocol, and if I remember correctly because it's been a few years since I dealt with personal effects, is 24 hours the Marine's personal effects are packed up-but those were always for the ones in barracks. We never had anyone in base housing or off base go UA. But I believe, that since Durham was in the house at the time, there was not a need to pack it up. But once he informed them he was leaving, then they had to since her personal effects would be considered unsecured. And the date they were packed is the date Durham was leaving.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde [*]

No I wasn't suspicious over Durham. I think he was trying to look out for a fellow Marine (Maria) and didn't want her to get in trouble for being UA.

But my first reaction as well as my husband's when we heard about this was "she's dead". My husband was like if she's testifying about something she witnessed-and especially a superior officer-she's dead. Of course at the time we were thinking superior officer being a rank of Captain, Major, or above. Not an enlisted person. But then I did have my doubts when other stuff started coming out and thought maybe she was just UA. [/*]

I, too, think Durham is a good guy in this tragedy.

When I first heard that Maria was missing and 8 or 8-1/2 months pregnant, I feared the worst because by the time the public knew of it, she had been gone for weeks, I think. I told my son that something had happened to her. A woman in that last stage of pregnancy just doesn't disappear. IMO

Good morning...

Does anyone think that Durham knew the details
of the relationship between ML and CL?

Maybe he knew the same details ML's mother knew and
not those details that other friends knew.
ie....it was a rape as opposed to a relationship.

[caejde]

Just wanted to add that I don't think the Marine Corps, law enforcement or anyone is completely innocent. Mistakes happen. Even for those with jobs such as Marines, investigators, etc. They're only human. And I do hope that procedures are looked at and if there is any room for improvement, then by all means do so.

I think something with similar to an Amber Alert should be used in the case of a pregnant person. I know they have a Silver Alert-which is meant for those with dementia, Alzheimers etc. But, also, with that, I mean what if the person did voluntarily leave...being pregnant or not...does that give law enforcement a right to go find them when they don't want to be found? I don't know.

Originally posted by caejde [*]

Normal protocol, and if I remember correctly because it's been a few years since I dealt with personal effects, is 24 hours the Marine's personal effects are packed up-but those were always for the ones in barracks. We never had anyone in base housing or off base go UA. But I believe, that since Durham was in the house at the time, there was not a need to pack it up. But once he informed them he was leaving, then they had to since her personal effects would be considered unsecured. And the date they were packed is the date Durham was leaving. [/*]

Hello caejde and thank you for all your valuable insight into this subject.

I had a question: do you happen to know when Maria's (or anyone's) personal effects would be released to her family? When I was reading your post, I was thinking of her family and how they might be comforted, in some way, by seeing her things and I wondered if this has or will happen any time soon?

And thank you again for all your help.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by bkwits [*]

I, too, think Durham is a good guy in this tragedy.

When I first heard that Maria was missing and 8 or 8-1/2 months pregnant, I feared the worst because by the time the public knew of it, she had been gone for weeks, I think. I told my son that something had happened to her. A woman in that last stage of pregnancy just doesn't disappear. IMO [/*]

I am quoting my post to add that even if the MC or LE thought she left on her own, didn't they think something happened to her , foul play, etc. when she didn't surface anywhere after 3 weeks?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde [*]Just wanted to add that I don't think the Marine Corps, law enforcement or anyone is completely innocent. Mistakes happen. Even for those with jobs such as Marines, investigators, etc. They're only human. And I do hope that procedures are looked at and if there is any room for improvement, then by all means do so.

I think something with similar to an Amber Alert should be used in the case of a pregnant person. I know they have a Silver Alert-which is meant for those with dementia, Alzheimers etc. But, also, with that, I mean what if the person did voluntarily leave...being pregnant or not...does that give law enforcement a right to go find them when they don't want to be found? I don't know. [/*]

Excellent idea about amber alert for preg. women.

As for your question, yes LE does have the right and duty to find someone who may be in peril. Sure we have people who leave on their own and they are usually located right away. Recently we had the Chinese woman who disappeared from O'Hare Airport. She called within a couple of days. She had slipped by her husband waiting for her at the airport.

Then there was the 6-mos. pregnant lawyer who disappeared from I think it was Toledo. She had staged her own kidnapping, but was found within 3 days.

And of course, there is Lisa Stebic and Stacy Peterson, who have disappeared and never been found. Did they just want to leave their lives, I don't think so.
LE doesn't have to bring them back but should be concerned when they vanish without a trace.

After all if someone like Maria, in her condition, left on her own, she could still be a victim of foul play. She definitely would be at risk health-wise. IMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen [*]

Hello caejde and thank you for all your valuable insight into this subject.

I had a question: do you happen to know when Maria's (or anyone's) personal effects would be released to her family? When I was reading your post, I was thinking of her family and how they might be comforted, in some way, by seeing her things and I wondered if this has or will happen any time soon?

And thank you again for all your help. [/*]

Hi Barbara. I read in an article, that Maria's personal effects were turned over to NCIS so they could then be turned over to the sheriff's department. So I guess whenever they feel they are done with it they will turn everything over to the parents.

[caejde]

Originally posted by caejde [*]

Hi Barbara. I read in an article, that Maria's personal effects were turned over to NCIS so they could then be turned over to the sheriff's department. So I guess whenever they feel they are done with it they will turn everything over to the parents. [/*]

Also, just wanted to add a specific incident that happened when I was in. We had a guy in my unit that was on leave to his hometown. While there, he was killed. His stuff was packed and we then shipped everything home to him within a couple of weeks. So, it's possible the family has her stuff if the sheriff's office is done with it.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits [*]

I am quoting my post to add that even if the MC or LE thought she left on her own, didn't they think something happened to her , foul play, etc. when she didn't surface anywhere after 3 weeks? [/*]

There have been military personnel who have gone AWOL that were not found for years.

imoo

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits [*]

Excellent idea. [/*]

I think it is too. But, as I posed...how would it affect those women that don't want to be found ya know. Does that infringe on their rights? Or does it not since the woman is liable for the baby she's carrying?

[strick10]

Originally posted by caejde [*]

Normal protocol, and if I remember correctly because it's been a few years since I dealt with personal effects, is 24 hours the Marine's personal effects are packed up-but those were always for the ones in barracks. We never had anyone in base housing or off base go UA. But I believe, that since Durham was in the house at the time, there was not a need to pack it up. But once he informed them he was leaving, then they had to since her personal effects would be considered unsecured. And the date they were packed is the date Durham was leaving. [/*]

I'm cracking up cause I can remember it's MCOP 4050 in reference to personal effects and I know it's a 1000 SIC manual that talks about what procudures to take and when to take them for U.A. etc. Marines. I'm having flashbacks here caejde. I believe it is 24 hrs. though. Personal effects procedures for both on base residents and off base residents are the same w/ the exception of married Marines or Marines w/ dependents.

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10 [*]

I'm cracking up cause I can remember it's MCOP 4050 in reference to personal effects and I know it's a 1000 SIC manual that talks about what procudures to take and when to take them for U.A. etc. Marines. I'm having flashbacks here caejde. I believe it is 24 hrs. though. Personal effects procedures for both on base residents and off base residents are the same w/ the exception of married Marines or Marines w/ dependents. [/*]

I am too! Sad thing is, I can still remember personal effects cases that I dealt with and probably can still tell you about if they called and asked! I was pretty darn good at doing personal effects. I ran the 782 gear warehouse and that's where PE was located. Anyway, I had been gone for 2 months when the Gunny called and said "We have inspection coming up again. We didn't do too good on the one after you left, can you help me out".

[strick10]

Originally posted by Jas.S [*]

Amen, caejde.

The "what if" game is just so, well, pointless.

To blame anyone in the marines/LE for preventing the murder is ridiculous.

And that weird non-logic of if the marines/LE would have done x,y, z (none of which, btw, ever seem doable, legal, practical or whatever), then ML would be alive.

It's really maddening. [/*]

It's beyond maddening at times.

.
LE had not choice but to look for ML after her mother made the
missing person's report.

If they had found her alive and safe...they could not make her
return or contact her mother.

Too bad that's not how it turned out......

[caejde]

Originally posted by Jas.S [*]

No.

I am interested in hearing what you think--from your post--that the marines did "wrong" in this case?

Thanks. [/*]

I'm not saying they did anything "wrong" per se. Just that, there could have been mistakes. I don't know what they are or of there are any. I was just pointing out that noone is perfect-and I mentioned it for Marine Corps, NCIS, Sheriff's department.

Originally posted by caejde [*]Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive." We don't know that and evidently the DA knows that as well since he stated that. Don't you think investigators are saying "Man, if we would have done "this" then "this" wouldn't have happened"? I'm sorry, but for anyone who thinks they could have done a better job or prevent any crime from happening, then well they need to become a police officer or go work for NCIS then. We, as the general public, don't know what all was done or not done. I'm sure when Durham got home, he didn't notice anything amiss in the home to suspect something bad happened to Maria. People-civilian and military-do leave on their own for no explanation. At the time and with all the information they had, all indications pointed to Maria leaving on her own free will.

(snipped)

[/*]

I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze [*]

There have been military personnel who have gone AWOL that were not found for years.

imoo [/*]

When they are almost ready to give birth?

When they are a witness against another Marine in a criminal case?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Jas.S [*]

The marines have looked at this case and have concluded that
everything was done as it shoud have been. [/*]

That is the bottom line. Yes.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert [*]

I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

As usual, ITA

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert [*]

I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

Ohio Congressman Mike Turner agrees with you Regina....

[caejde]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert [*]

I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy?

Originally posted by caejde [*]

As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy? [/*]

or make some changes in the procedures without finger-pointing.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde [*]

As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy? [/*]

If that happens, maybe the procedures need to be looked at and revised. IMO

Originally posted by caejde [*]

Also, just wanted to add a specific incident that happened when I was in. We had a guy in my unit that was on leave to his hometown. While there, he was killed. His stuff was packed and we then shipped everything home to him within a couple of weeks. So, it's possible the family has her stuff if the sheriff's office is done with it. [/*]

Thank you, caejde. I hope they have them already. I'm sure it will be sad and a comfort at the same time for them to have her things.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert [*]

I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgment from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

How in the world would the Marine Corps ever have known that Maria would go to the very home of the man she accused of raping her?

I don't think they took anything lightly. In fact I think if her allegations had been in the public domain a DA would have not pursued it based on the inconsistent statements of the accuser herself.

Even though the MC/NCIS had a very iffy shaky case they were at least going forward to an Article 32 hearing.

The MC did nothing wrong imo. Not one thing happened on that base between Laurean and Maria to violate any protective order under their jurisdiction.. She was asked repeatedly did she fear Laurean and repeatedly said no ......yet they still kept the MPO in place even with her telling them that.

They tried to protect her and it worked all those months. It isn't their fault that Maria decided to come to his home on the 14th.

imoo