Two toddlers freeze to death, alcohol cited

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/298889

snip-

YELLOW QUILL, Sask. – The grief on a Saskatchewan First Nation deepened this morning with the discovery of the tiny body of a toddler frozen in knee-deep snow near her home – the day after her younger sister's body was found in the same condition.

© Copyright Toronto Star 1996-2008

[CANDYKISSES]

OMG, what a horrible tragedy.

[Annie143]

And no excuse should be offered up for this happening......!

Is he subject to a tribal law for punishment for this crime of minimally neglect or does he come under standard American law ? I think I am reading that he lives on a reservation ?

My heart aches for those little babies, hopefully their suffering did not last.

Originally posted by Annie143 [*]And no excuse should be offered up for this happening......!

Is he subject to a tribal law for punishment for this crime of minimally neglect or does he come under standard American law ? I think I am reading that he lives on a reservation ?

My heart aches for those little babies, hopefully their suffering did not last.

[/*]

No consolation, but I read that freezing to death is uncomfortable very briefly, and then a warmth envelops the victim.

[msmom]

For each child

[VC2]

Originally posted by Annie143 [*]And no excuse should be offered up for this happening......!

Is he subject to a tribal law for punishment for this crime of minimally neglect or does he come under standard American law ? I think I am reading that he lives on a reservation ?

My heart aches for those little babies, hopefully their suffering did not last.

[/*]

since it happened in canada it would be canadian law.

[jtazzy]

OMG my heart breaks for each child

[barskin&co.]

Just too, too sad.

[Annie143]

Sorry, I didnt read Canada. My bad. The question still stands, only would he be subject to Canadian law and not tribal law ?

Good fathers do not get drunk while caring for the children.



Those poor babies.

good parents also don't take their kids outside in freezing temperatures wearing only a diaper and tshirt. Wonder how he was dressed? The article mentions that he was taking care of the kids */c the mom was out partying.
I'm not sure if the RCMP will be involved in this or Reserve police. I guess it will depend on how the investigation goes.

New article with a few more details. Looks like the RCMP is investigating.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/299061

snip-

There was anger among some, who said the tragedy points to social problems, such as substance abuse and lack of housing, that have long been ignored on the reserve.

© Copyright Toronto Star 1996-2008

Some people should be neutered.

[Annie143]

Some people should be neutered.

[spicedtea]

I didn't see any mention of an autopsy being done at some point on the babies,did I miss something? Surely they aren't going to just take this guys word for how they died,for all anyone knows,he could have killed them before leaving the house and then dumped them in the field and staged this crazy story as a cover-up.

Drunk or not,nobody would take babies out into the extreme cold and snow just to leave them in a field by accident.

Then just not bother to indicate to anyone that they were out there for 8 hours. I know he had hypothermia and frost bite,but his injuries are not life threatening and he had enough strength to make it to the neighbors house,yet not enough to talk or write or hand gesture that the babies were out there in danger?!?

I just don't believe it and IMO it sounds more like he intentionally did something to his kids and is trying to get away with it.

Poor babies,may they rest in peace...

Info on the wake and funeral for the little girls, as well as the investigation:

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/saska...cd8fdb&k=20936

The canada.com family of Web sites and CanWest newspaper Web sites are protected by copyright law. Copyright © 2007 CanWest MediaWorks Publications Inc. and its affiliated or related companies. Specific content such as articles, photos and images are subject to the copyright of their respective owners. All rights reserved. Unauthorized distribution, transmission or publication strictly prohibited.

Originally posted by packy [*]Oh so sad. Bless their hearts.

I hope they at least find out why he left the house with them. I wonder if their heat was out, or if there was some other problem that caused him to take them. Or was he gonna take them to the neighbor and go out or go look for their mother. So many questions, but no matter what these two little toddlers are gone. [/*]

I think he was out of booze.

[Cdaus]

"No consolation, but I read that freezing to death is uncomfortable very briefly, and then a warmth envelops the victim."

Did someone actually experience this??

Sask. reserve where 2 sisters died tried to ban alcohol: chief

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewa...rs-deaths.html

The Globe and Mail quoted the man's older sister, Bernita Pauchay, as saying he had been drinking heavily on Monday night.

She said he was trying to take the children to a relative's house about 400 metres away because "there was something wrong" with one of them.

The RCMP have only said alcohol may have been a factor. Christopher Pauchay has been taken to a Saskatoon hospital where police are expected to interview him again on Thursday.

[spicedtea]

Originally posted by birdmom [*]This is just Sad..

But, I wish to point out a few things from the last post.
I am in no way saying it was not neglect or was right. Just wish to point out a few things that are missing. I only have the media posts to go on and have no idea if there is more to this. I just want people to consider something they might not understand if they live in a warmer area.

(snip)

[/*]

A very thought provoking post. After reading the second article just now,I agree that what you said is a real possibility.

Plus,just from my own experience,some/most reservations are grossly impoverished and don't have the money for things like outdoor lighting so they aren't well lit at night. My aunt lived on the Quapaw reservation in Oklahoma,while not cold there,it was pitch black at night. Plus the housing units are usually identical,making it hard to find the one you're looking for. I got lost many times trying to find my way back to my aunts home.

Wonder if that could have contributed to what happened,the dad becoming disoriented due to the intense cold combined with total darkness and got lost. I can see that happening in even an open field.

I read that he wasn't wearing a coat either so that would point to some kind of crisis that he thought he could just run to a family members help for.

Unless something else comes up to say that the man intentionally put the kids in harms way,I retract my previous post and offer prayers for him too.

Thanks for posting your thought on this. I feel guilty that I judged too fast now.

For all three....

some more details are coming out now:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewa...-children.html

snipped-

Father of dead girls sorry, family member says

The man whose two young girls froze to death on a Saskatchewan First Nation reserve is devastated by the loss and knows he did wrong, his sister says.

"It'll probably take him a long time to actually forgive himself," Bernita Pauchay said Thursday.


"He realized what he's done," she said. "He realized he screwed up big time, and that guilt and that blame is always going to be there because when he looks at his scars, that's when he is going to remember it."

According to Pauchay's sister, on Monday night, the father was worried about his younger daughter and had concerns she might have been sick. Pauchay may have been trying to reach help when he became lost in the icy field, she said.

"It scared him a lot to make him run out of the house like that to take the girls like that," she said.

Pauchay told his sister that at some point he dropped the kids, she said.

Her brother was drinking heavily that day, she said, adding that when he's drinking, he becomes a different person.

Originally posted by Jbrink [*]some more details are coming out now:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewa...-children.html

snipped-

Father of dead girls sorry, family member says

The man whose two young girls froze to death on a Saskatchewan First Nation reserve is devastated by the loss and knows he did wrong, his sister says.

"It'll probably take him a long time to actually forgive himself," Bernita Pauchay said Thursday.


"He realized what he's done," she said. "He realized he screwed up big time, and that guilt and that blame is always going to be there because when he looks at his scars, that's when he is going to remember it."

According to Pauchay's sister, on Monday night, the father was worried about his younger daughter and had concerns she might have been sick. Pauchay may have been trying to reach help when he became lost in the icy field, she said.

"It scared him a lot to make him run out of the house like that to take the girls like that," she said.

Pauchay told his sister that at some point he dropped the kids, she said.

Her brother was drinking heavily that day, she said, adding that when he's drinking, he becomes a different person. [/*]

Dropped the childrn to save himself , yep he "screwed up big time".

No defense for this drunk.

birdmom, I am a mother and my girls are alive because I loved them enough to put their needs first, I do not care how cold it was , that drunk dropped his daughters and the girls are dead and he saved himself, and only himself, girls were dropped.

He is a very bad man. imo

The children were dressed in a t-shirt and diapers. Why no shoes or coats in that fridged weather???

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/299916


snip-


Tots who froze to death laid to rest

YELLOW QUILL RESERVE, Sask.–The heartbroken grandmother of two children who met their tragic ends in an icy field on a Saskatchewan reserve has issued an emotional plea to the Canadian public, asking that their deaths not be in vain.

Three-year-old Kaydance Pauchay and her 1-year-old sister Santana were laid to rest Saturday after a private service on the Yellow Quill reserve about three hours east of Saskatoon.

Afterward, the girls' maternal grandmother, Irene Nippi, made her way to the edge of the reserve, where the media were being kept back, and asked reporters to tell the story of Yellow Quill and the struggles its people face.

"I was worried about my grandchildren. I did not want them to leave this world in vain," Nippi said, her slight frame trembling against the cold. "I hope there's change now that happens – a lot of changes like no alcohol and counselling and stuff to be brought in here. Our old teachings should be brought back."

The Yellow Quill reserve, situated in a part of the province where flat grain fields give way to rolling hills and forests, is battling alcohol abuse, high unemployment and a lack of suitable housing.

The First Nation also has political and financial difficulties. It has been under third-party management since 1999, and the chief is currently locked in a bitter battle with councillors that both sides agree is crippling the reserve's development.

Nippi said she hopes Saturday's service helps her own family move forward. The children's father, Christopher Pauchay, was brought to the reserve by ambulance so he and their mother, Tracey Jimmy, could say goodbye to their children together. Jimmy is expecting another baby in April.



Speaking to reporters as he left the memorial reception in his car, Pauchay's brother Gary said both parents have been devastated by the tragedy.

"The parents are really sad," he said, adding his brother hasn't told him much about what happened that night. "He just stares at me."

He couldn't speculate on Christopher's recovery, other than to say, "He'll walk."

When reporters asked how he himself was coping, Pauchay said simply, "having a beer." There was an open beer bottle beside him in the car console.

Nippi had has words for the band leadership, saying she and her family have felt like they weren't supported during this tragedy.

But she was comforted by all the people who came to the funeral from far and wide to offer their condolences.

"That made me feel so good," she said, fighting back tears. "I just knew we weren't alone."

Originally posted by Texanne [*]No, not alone. All the drinking buddies are there. Wakes are sometimes a good excuse to drink again.. Have another one...it was just little children. None of you were responsible. [/*]

Open beer in the car ???

[jace]

I don't think the alcohol is optional in trying to recreate what happened. If he had been sober he might have thought to bundle the girls before going out. If he had been sober he might have realized that he dropped them and went back to get them. If they still died after all his efforts then there might have been some sympathy for him.

Yes, where he lived is freezing but it can't be an excuse for a father that was drunk while he was supposed to be taking care of his daughters. If the house had caught on fire and he was drunk, ran out of the house but "forgot" that his daughters were there so he didn't go get them out then would you have sympathy for him? Would the excuse be that fire is hot?

["It'll probably take him a long time to actually forgive himself," Bernita Pauchay said Thursday.

"He realized what he's done," she said. "He realized he screwed up big time, and that guilt and that blame is always going to be there because when he looks at his scars, that's when he is going to remember it."

It'll take him a long time??? It should take him forever to forgive himself.... and oh I'm sorry, if he has to see actual scars to remember what happened, he was NOT a loving father.

I'm sorry I know that sound heartless, but we just had a bought of -18 degree weather, -32 wind chills and I wouldn't even let my kids go outside.... and if they were sick and needed help ~ you would still take a minute and put clothes on them!!! My God, in that type of temps it takes NO time at all for frostbite to kick in... plus it's difficult to breath as well in those temps.

How much you wanna bet he doesn't give up drinking????

ETA... guess it doesn't bother the rest of the family either...

When reporters asked how he himself was coping, Pauchay said simply, "having a beer." There was an open beer bottle beside him in the car console.

Originally posted by lorjac [*]

It'll take him a long time??? It should take him forever to forgive himself.... and oh I'm sorry, if he has to see actual scars to remember what happened, he was NOT a loving father.

I'm sorry I know that sound heartless, but we just had a bought of -18 degree weather, -32 wind chills and I wouldn't even let my kids go outside.... and if they were sick and needed help ~ you would still take a minute and put clothes on them!!! My God, in that type of temps it takes NO time at all for frostbite to kick in... plus it's difficult to breath as well in those temps.

How much you wanna bet he doesn't give up drinking????

ETA... guess it doesn't bother the rest of the family either...

When reporters asked how he himself was coping, Pauchay said simply, "having a beer." There was an open beer bottle beside him in the car console. [/*]

Those babies were dressed in a shirt and a diaper, it just makes me so mad that dad took them out like that and dropped them one by one to die all alone in the fridged cold ( I just know they were crying too) and he feels like the victim. ???

A beer at a funeral bothered me, but that open beer in a car just is so wrong.


Poor little babies

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/saska...49010e6&k=7219

Have compassion for father of frozen children, says ‘miracle’ baby’s mother

snip-

The mother of a child who narrowly escaped death by freezing almost seven years ago is calling for compassion for the father of two infant girls found frozen to death on a Saskatchewan First Nations reserve last week.

Erika Nordby made headlines around the globe as Edmonton’s “miracle baby” when, in 2001, she made a complete recovery after freezing to the point of clinical death in a snow-covered backyard.


Her mother, Leyla Nordby, said Tuesday that Christopher Pauchay — who lost his daughters Jan. 29 after taking them out in a -50 wind chill after he’d been drinking heavily — deserves sympathy, not condemnation.

“He’s messed up. He knows it,” she said. “It does matter the circumstances, but just be kind; that guy has to live with the consequences the rest of his life.

“What good is it pointing fingers? He’s going to have so many haunting memories.”

and-

A community meeting will be held on the Yellow Quill First Nation on Thursday to discuss the reserve’s chronic social problems.

“The community’s quite angry. There’s a lot of chaos right now,” said social worker Margaret Roper, who is helping to organize the meeting.

“We need to make some changes. This is not about pointing fingers at anybody or making this a political issue. What are the changes that need to be made to start healing?”

Roper said the community meeting, originally scheduled for last Friday, was postponed due to the girls’ wake and funeral.

But it’s now time to vent frustrations over problems plaguing the community, such as poor housing and alcohol abuse, she said.

“There’s just so much work to be done.”

The band council will also be meeting Wednesday to talk about its problems and concerns, said Chief Robert Whitehead. He said he also plans to attend the community meeting.

Here's another article that does not deal directly with the deaths of these two children, but outlines conditions on the reserve. I just thought it could add to the bigger picture.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/298174

Harsh reality of northern reserves

Hmmm, I guess it would be like drinking beer at the funeral of a friend/family member who died as result of a drunk driving incident... IMO.

Didn't his family state that he had been drinking??? Cuz didn't his sister say 'he is another person when he drinks?"

How long could one last in those temps??? Not long, not long at all..... in fact in those temps it only takes MINUTES for frostbite to set in.... and why does what HE was wearing matter??? He managed to survive.... didn't he????

As for simulating the event.... how can you??? Do you know if they had snow standing on the ground??? If so, how much, do you know how hard it is to run in snow??? Especially once it's started to get that ice on the top that breaks w/your every step. You cannot completely simulate this.

I do believe it was a very difficult trek for him... however, he managed to survive and two innocent children were ditched into a snowbank and dead in no time.... all of which was due to his stupidity due to his being drunk. Plain & Simple.

Yep... I don't care who the parent is.... they still need to be held responsible.....

I agree... I have my own opinions... I live in Central WI we get that below zero **** and the snow and the wind... so I'm not a victim of anything!!!!

[trt]

I know if *my* child died(GOD FORBID) as a result of something I did or didn't do because I was drunk, the last thing I'd be doing at their funeral or anywhere else would be drinking. That would totally be a wake up call that *perhaps* I had a problem and needed some help. JMO

I do not know much about cold temperatures, North Carolina is the coldest place I have ever lived in and I live in coastal North Carolina so I admit I may not understand -50 degrees, but I wonder if I would be better off naked ??? I am very sure I would want layers of cotton and wool, but if I were to believe bird then those babies dressed only in t-shirts and diapers had a better chance at living than over dressed dad.

I know the man is sick and sad now but on that night he was drunk and neglectful and I think he should be charged with a crime even if it is only simple child endangerment.

Criminal charges?
Guilty conscience must be considered, argue some experts

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpo...1ac17f&k=54119

Some legal experts agree the Crown must consider Christopher Pauchay's guilty conscience and broken heart in determining whether he should face further scrutiny from the courts over the deaths of his two young girls.

The 25-year-old had apparently been drinking before he left his home on the Yellow Quill reserve with his daughters some time after 12:30 a.m. Tuesday, when windchill temperatures had dipped into the -50C range.

Pauchay was rushed to hospital suffering from hypothermia and serious frostbite, after neighbours found his frozen body on their doorstep. RCMP later discovered the bodies of Kaydance, 3, and one-year-old Santana, clad only in T-shirts and diapers, in some piles of snow.

"Even for those people who are very critical of the father -- bearing in mind we don't know all the facts -- you'd have to be pretty insensitive not to have any sympathy for him," Saskatoon defence lawyer Mark Brayford said Friday.

"I don't think we can diminish the degree of remorse that no doubt is felt by a parent when a child is injured or killed."

RCMP are continuing to investigate the case and will likely ask the Crown for a recommendation on whether criminal charges are warranted.

Brayford said the Crown has to consider that Pauchay has lost both of his children, and there is no greater punishment than guilt.

He said a second reason for going to court -- to deter other people from making the same mistake -- doesn't apply here.

"The tragic circumstances are going to fulfill that purpose," Brayford said.

Glen Luther, a law professor at the University of Saskatchewan, said the Crown traditionally considers whether criminal charges are in the public's best interest and whether there is a reasonable likelihood for a conviction.

In this case, the Crown must also look at Pauchay's devastating loss, as well as his own injuries, he said.

"With the dad in hospital and so on, I think they have a hard decision to make."

Luther said possible charges include failing to provide the necessities of life and the more serious offence of criminal negligence causing death, most often seen in driving cases.

Brayford said criminal negligence causing death is a very serious charge, on par with manslaughter, and carries a maximum life sentence.

I think we should just look at the situation for what it is- a tragedy that has resulted from poor decisions that were influenced by alcohol. Two girls are dead and they didn't stand a chance out in the elements. Time will tell what will happen in terms of the investigation and whether charges will be laid. I think we can (or should) all agree that it is unfortunate that these children died so young. I don't think we should resort to name-calling or talking down to people who are only posting here because they feel a sense of outrage over this tragedy. Just because someone feels the father is to blame doesn't mean they should be talked down to or have their opinions belittled. But for the father's actions that night, these two girls would probably still be alive. I believe Jace (sorry if I have that wrong) stated that there are many other posts about crimes that reflect all income levels, all backgrounds. The point was no matter who the parent was, the tragedy would be no less (or greater) if children died as a result of his/her actions. MOO.

Thank you for the update Jbrink, I understand why the dad may not be charged but I would like to see a court order issued to make sure he will not be in control of children ever again.

Justice should be tempered with mercy and locking this man up changes nothing but he should never have the opportunity to kill another child .


imo

I agree duncan. One of the articles posted mentioned the girls' mother is pregnant, but I don't know if the father of the dead girls is the father of her baby (gosh, that sounds so confusing). From what I understand, the mother and father do not live together, so maybe it's not his baby (who knows...)

Here is the latest update after the community meeting yesterday.

snipped-

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/saska...fca8d1&k=33306

Yellow Quill chief proposing drug and alcohol treatment centre

By Matt Kruchak, TheStarPhoenix.com
Published: Thursday, February 07, 2008

YELLOW QUILL FIRST NATION — Kids played with puppies outside the Yellow Quill First Nation community hall Thursday afternoon. Indoors, adults discussed their future.

The meeting for residents of the bruised community is the first step in the healing process, said Margaret Roper, a Yellow Quill social worker who helped organize the gathering. About 50 people filed into the hall to vent their feelings, address concerns and begin taking steps toward a healthier community.

Earlier in the day, Chief Robert Whitehead announced the band plans to submit a proposal to the provincial and federal governments for a drug and alcohol treatment center.

The community, located 260 kilometres east of Saskatoon, has suffered from the effects of alcohol abuse, high unemployment and inadequate housing for decades. But many said it took the death of two young girls for the community to come together.

Last Tuesday, Christopher Pauchay, who had reportedly been drinking, decided to take his daughters — Kaydance, 3, and Santana, 1 — to a neighbour’s home. With the two girls wearing only T-shirts and diapers, they headed into the early morning as temperatures dipped to –50 C. The children didn’t make it. Christopher was found suffering from hypothermia and frostbite on a neighbour’s doorstep. His children were later found frozen to death.

“We’re looking at a sunrise here,” Roper said. “What we want to do is offer a better future for our children. Give some hope to our children.”

Media was asked to stay out of the meeting, which Roper said went better than expected.

“I just feel wonderful right now and we’re moving towards a better future for ourselves, for our children. I know there’s a magnitude of problems that we need to address. Like I said, this is a beginning to something positive.”

Residents are beginning to realize they need to come together if they want to deal with the issues destroying the community, said Marilyn Gilbert, after leaving the gathering. Weekly community meetings will be organized.

In the years to come, Michael Campeau wants to see the return to traditional First Nations ways — but modelled after closed Mennonite communities.

“They keep their stuff within their walls. They teach their culture. They provide for themselves and whatever’s left over they take out to the community on the outside and sell it and get their economic development that way,” he said.

Re-establishing traditional customs is crucial to fixing the fractured community, said George Peequaquat, who spent 10 years in a residential school.

“Let’s resolve some of these issues, and it’s not pointing fingers at everybody, but dealing with things,” the support worker at the Yellow Quill school said. “When you start doing this you have to look within yourself because it starts at home.”

Standing outside the band office, Whitehead announced plans for a local drug and alcohol treatment centre focusing on Aboriginal culture to gathered media.

“A lot of our people, when we send them to (regular) treatment centres they come back in worse shape than when they went in,” he said.

Roper sees the creation of a centre as an important step to addressing issues the First Nation faces with alcohol.

“People don’t want to leave the reserve because they’re so used to being at home and the cultural support is here. Our language is still well and alive and if they go into another area then they’re scared.”

The project is in partnership with Fishing Lake and Knishton First Nations, Whitehead said, adding a location has yet to be determined.

Are we going to be as vicious 6 months from now when babies are being left in hot cars by wealthy, educated parents to die, or will we say, "Oh, they were overworked and it was just an accident. They're punishing themselves enough as it is."

I doubt it.