RAY GRICAR, Missing Centre County DA, cont.

[J. J. in Phila]

This is a continuation of the discussion around the disappearance of Ray F. Gricar, the Centre County District Attorney who disappeared on 4/15/05.

[Cloudbuster]

Merry Christmas All!!!! Pgal thanks for the dream book!!! In a article I found this statement lets say a little strange for keeping the Drug center open. Second article down.

Baltimore case that reportedly involved money laundering and the diversion of 8 million doses of the painkiller hydrocodone
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07316...rlyreturns.xml

I suppose Im asking -if the NDIC had problems staying open for some time including before RG went missing, then wouldn't the drug case RG was in the paper with his picture on be a even more((( politically))) inclined motive to keep the NDIC open? Apparently the center had alot of problems. Did RG while being on the drug bust investagation come upon let's say something that sparked his brow??? Could he have found out something that he found unacceptable?
possible IMOO:wreath:

[Cloudbuster]

LW the truck donation is interesting especially when compared with the home not being partly in his name and the car that he drove being presented as a gift which didn't include his name. When you look at it some would think he was advoiding owning anything titled.

Found in the CDT a interesting case that RG would have been involved back in 2003 and on till disappearance. Interestingly person used to be from NJ. Currently now a local. I find the back dates interesting. But here is the current story.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/295115.html

I understand your frustration of not being able to get a answer. I think all the posters are wonderful people cause each and everyone has done and tried everything possible to try! I do believe in my heart that it will come out. I have this dumb saying and it goes like this : A secret is something that wants itself known. With enough of us I do believe it will be known!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks

We have a local DA missing, who was approaching retirement and seemingly happy to be doing so.

Let's be blunt, we have multiple reports of a change in attitude by RFG, from between a week and a month, prior to his disappearance. Spotts saw an off hand comment, but the rest of the staff say some real changes.

It appears there was some 'undermining' going on, beginning early in March with the only case date offered by the judge........only date available, when RG planned on being on vacation. Ms. Spotts said he acted 'strangely' at that time. If RG was asked to go along with it and refused, due to his own belief a crime had been committed, and continued to research and build the case, now against the new defense attorney's version of what happened, IF someone higher up ordered him off the case, what recourse would he have but to drop it even if he believed a crime had been committed? Could he be arrested for not doing so? If he truly believed a crime had been committed, how strong would he stand in his commitment to the truth? Strong enough to give up everything?

First of all, there are no "higher ups," as it's RFG's call to prosecute.

Second, you have problems beyond the attorney change.

i. This was basically a case where medical experts would testify that a crime took place. The two prosecution medical experts give conflicting accounts of the death, one insisting there was head trauma, the other existing there wasn't.

ii. The defense medical experts are stellar, and their conclusion is backed up by a blood test. One literally wrote the text book on shaken babies and the other was profiled in both Time and Smithsonian.

iii. The judge, looking at the evidence gathered under RFG's watchful eye, says that there is not enough evidence to support the death penalty.

Now, RFG must have had some idea of this in the weeks before 4/15/05.

I've seen no link on the truck donation and would question its relevance it it could be found. I would also question the time frame of after RFG disappeared.

[Politigal]

What bothers me most about this case, is that there isn't one single piece of evidence that verifies that Ray Gricar was anywhere after Thursday night 4/14/05 -- not one.

The entire case has hinged on Patty Fornicola's word, her tears, and her polygraph.

Quite a shame - IMO

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Politigal [*]What bothers me most about this case, is that there isn't one single piece of evidence that verifies that Ray Gricar was anywhere after Thursday night 4/14/05 -- not one.

The entire case has hinged on Patty Fornicola's word, her tears, and her polygraph.

Quite a shame - IMO [/*]

Well Pgal to get a feel for the area RG lived in and for the folks who are reading and would like to understand the town of Bellefonte area here is a good link.

"I think what happens, why Bellefonte seems so alive, is that so many people know each other and work together," he said

http://www.centredaily.com/living/ce...tory/4485.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Factually, there is evidence, and multiple witness reports of RFG after Thursday night. Most of them put him in Lewisburg, but one person who knew RFG saw him in Bellefonte in a different car. Another witness, a judge who is a former police office, saw him, in the different car at the same location, but is unsure of if it was 4/14 or 4/15. (I think we're up to 8-10 who saw him in specific areas after 4/14.) While I do not believe that all the witnesses are 100% right, I do not believe that all the witnesses are 100% wrong.

His car, a Mini Cooper, was found with only his prints in it more than 50 miles away, in Lewisburg. There were witnesses that placed the car as arriving in the afternoon of 4/15/05 and that placed RFG there as well. His scent was discovered in the parking lot.

The phone call was difficult, though not impossible, to fake; it had a 40%-50% chance of failure if it was staged.

Originally posted by Politigal [*]What bothers me most about this case, is that there isn't one single piece of evidence that verifies that Ray Gricar was anywhere after Thursday night 4/14/05 -- not one. The entire case has hinged on Patty Fornicola's word, her tears, and her polygraph. Quite a shame - IMO [/*]

MOO:

I agree the evidence made public thus far has not been conclusive; that there also seems to be no public evidence which proves RG was not driving the car on the morning of 4/15. I am confident LE and (though to a lesser extent) RG's family, understand all of the evidence, clues, scenarios and implications.

The shame is that there has been no resolution yet. Also, as demonstrated in this and other forums, the often (seemingly) flippant attitude of LE, and the failure to inform, answer legitimate questions, and recognize the potential for a conflict of interest to exist in the DA's office, has seriously undermined public confidence in the investigation. Although...it is difficult to gauge that sentiment when so few voices are heard.

We have all, no doubt, invested inordinate amounts of time and effort...not so much in the hope of being able to solve this case, as in keeping the possibilities, and the investigation (with its perceived weaknesses), in public view. LE must be held accountable. For that to happen, other voices need to be heard.

[Cinderella]

The part that really gets me is, if someone in Centre County or elsewhere murdered Ray Gricar and covered it up, then anyone is at risk for the same thing to happen to them.

Sometimes it might be time to keep quiet about happenings, but this is dangerous especially if corruption is going on. The public is supposed to be the ultimate boss. The public should know what has taken place or else a grand jury should meet. Keeping the public in the dark is not good, it's dangerous.


Also P.F. did not believe that C. F. saw Ray that day at the courthouse. She thinks that it might have been someone that looked like Ray. Does P.F. words persuade LE to decide certain things, and why is someone close to the victim being given information. It doesn't make sense.

I am citing a case in Philipsburg. Dana Bailey. Her parents stated that they weren't told very much of anything.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j_k5TKCPYLI

Politigal: Love hearing "Ave Maria", especially this time of year. And Josh Groban 'kinda grows on ya'...I heard him sing on the television this morning also...although, he could drop that facial-stuble, IMHO.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]The part that really gets me is, if someone in Centre County or elsewhere murdered Ray Gricar and covered it up, then anyone is at risk for the same thing to happen to them.

This is the main reason I post.

Also P.F. did not believe that C. F. saw Ray that day at the courthouse. She thinks that it might have been someone that looked like Ray. Does P.F. words persuade LE to decide certain things, and why is someone close to the victim being given information. It doesn't make sense.

Do you have a link? TG has questioned the sighting, but I wasn't aware that PEF even knew about it prior to the story appearing in the press.

[Cinderella]

J. J., P. F. stated it to me when I saw her that time. So no I don't have a link.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]J. J., P. F. stated it to me when I saw her that time. So no I don't have a link. [/*]

I had posted about this a couple of months ago, as I recalled reading something to the effect that there was another man who resembled RG in the courthouse, in that time frame. I had first thought Tony posted it but when he asked for backup, I couldn't locate it.

I do recall reading though that Zaccagni said Fenton's sighting could not be verified in any way.

Cinderella --- I was always curious if Patty spoke to Fenton personally about her sighting.

Do you know if she did? One would think, working so close to one another in the courthouse, that the occasion may have presented itself.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1 [*]http://youtube.com/watch?v=j_k5TKCPYLI

Politigal: Love hearing "Ave Maria", especially this time of year. And Josh Groban 'kinda grows on ya'...I heard him sing on the television this morning also...although, he could drop that facial-stuble, IMHO. [/*]

I've always loved that song, and when you posted the Celine Dion link the other day, it also had a duet with Groban on there, and that's how I found his version of Ave Maria.

So, thx to you.

Originally posted by Politigal [*]
I've always loved that song, and when you posted the Celine Dion link the other day, it also had a duet with Groban on there, and that's how I found his version of Ave Maria.

So, thx to you. [/*]

YVW...another "must" experience, IMO. I brought it over, to listen to again...at least I am tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK9nt1NF7Nw

[Politigal]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]


And yet the day before he disappeared, we have SPM stating she and RG emailed back and forth and he was joking around with her.

Does it boil down to there being only two places where there seemed to be a 'change in attitude'; at home, taking longer naps and at the office?

I don't recall any mention of the prison board members or LG or anyone else outside of the office commenting on his acting 'different'.

"Was it strictly limited to those two locations, home and office, and when the 'staff' was no longer around, no problem being in a joking mood, as evidenced by what SPM said? If the problem was strictly 'office-based', what would explain it showing up at home if it wasn't the same problem in both places?
JMO [/*]

We musn't forget the park....

So, at home (with Patty,) the office and at the park (with Patty)...

"with Patty" seems to be key

[J. J. in Phila]

[quote]Originally posted by logicworks [*]


And yet the day before he disappeared, we have SPM stating she and RG emailed back and forth and he was joking around with her.

[quote]

There is a BIG difference between reading an e-mail and seeing the actions of the person directly.

Does it boil down to there being only two places where there seemed to be a 'change in attitude'; at home, taking longer naps and at the office?

Where else was he that a change would have been noticed? Seriously, he wasn't at his local "club" where the members noticed a change.

I don't recall any mention of the prison board members or LG or anyone else outside of the office commenting on his acting 'different'.

One of the members apparently didn't realize that RFG was there for the first three meetings that year. Again, there is not a lot of contact with RFG outside of that context.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]It had been said that 'Friday night out' was a regular occurrence, yet seemingly there were no plans that we are aware of for the 'Friday night out' on 4/15. Was there any break in that routine in the previous weeks immediately prior to the disappearance? If there was, how many times prior to that had there been a 'break' in the routine?
JMO [/*]

I've posted this on another tread, but it does not seem to have been a "standing date." I think Sloane described it a frequent.

You can check the other thread.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]J. J., P. F. stated it to me when I saw her that time. So no I don't have a link. [/*]

Okay, I didn't know that.

That was still well after it was reported in the media. She may have discounted it after it had been reported.

"On the personal side, he was very reserved and kept things to himself," said Scott Conklin, a county commissioner who like a number of employees had dealings with Gricar right before he vanished. "**But he showed no signs of unusual behavior in the weeks leading up to this,** so it is baffling."

[S]ome local people - like attorney Bryant - think that with his retirement imminent and with possible symptoms of depression, that Gricar may have met the same fate as his brother.

But others say [that] Gricar was looking forward to stepping down and **was not acting any different from usual right up until the day he vanished.** County commissioner Chris Exarchos saw Gricar at a meeting the day before he disappeared and said "there was nothing remarkable about that meeting."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

********

This is not to say Gricar did not enjoy the occasional puzzler along with the Grey Goose martini he invariably ordered while awaiting his table at the bar of the Gamble Mill Inn.

"**Every Friday,** he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

********

For the last couple of Friday afternoons at the dark and historic creekside eatery called Gamble Mill Restaurant, bartenders have kept glancing over at Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar's usual spot at the bar.

"They look over at the little spot he used to sit in," with his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, playing their **weekly game** of Trivial Pursuit as he sipped a Grey Goose martini, said the restaurant manager, Andi Heidt-Nixdorf. "When every Friday comes along, they think they're going to see him."

But no one in this Victorian-tinged, mountainside county seat is known to have seen the 59-year-old Gricar - a button-down, lifelong prosecutor looking to retire at year's end - in the last 28 days.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htm

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Politigal [*]

I had posted about this a couple of months ago, as I recalled reading something to the effect that there was another man who resembled RG in the courthouse, in that time frame. I had first thought Tony posted it but when he asked for backup, I couldn't locate it.

I do recall reading though that Zaccagni said Fenton's sighting could not be verified in any way.

Cinderella --- I was always curious if Patty spoke to Fenton personally about her sighting.

Do you know if she did? One would think, working so close to one another in the courthouse, that the occasion may have presented itself. [/*]

Pgal, All she stated when asked about whether she thought that was Ray at the courthouse was that she didn't believe that was him. She thought that C.F. might have seen someone that looked like Ray, but wasn't Ray. I never asked her if she spoke to C.F. about the sighting. I didn't ask her why she felt that way. We just talked about maybe some other question at that point, but not about the sighting. I am sure that she would have explained her reason to me if I had asked her.

And the CDT (4/30/05) that (supposedly according to PF): "The telephone conversation...was brief, and he made no mention of where he was headed, when he'd be back or any plans for the evening or weekend".

Maddening...quite maddening. MOO

[Cinderella]

This is what really bothers me. Newspaper accounts. I know at one time, I was interviewed by the CDT. They grouped a lot of my sentences together to make it look like something else. So I know first hand, how the newspaper reports things. It is a shame that reporters can't get the story straight. It also makes the other person look bad at times.

So did P.F. change her story or did the newspaper get it wrong. It started to happen right from the beginning. First he was going to take a half day off, then it was a whole day, etc.

[sherrijean981]

Just for the record, Cind, the truth, doesn't get you in jail!

Originally posted by sherrijean981 [*]Just for the record, Cind, the truth, doesn't get you in jail! [/*]

And neither does slipshod reporting! MOO

BTW, welcome back UtR. Did you happen to see day2day while you were gone?

[Cinderella]

Question, I know this is a little off the subject, but did anyone ever have someone on the internet that just would not leave a person alone. I have someone that I specifically stated that I don't want any contact or correspondence with that person, but this person will not leave me alone. What does a person do? Does Coldwater deal with this issue?

[sherrijean981]

I am also having the same problem as Cindi.

But it isn't against the law to answer a question or state a fact on the Ray Gricar forum, is it?

And if you are talking about me answering your pm, then you are the one in the wrong! Put me on ignore like you can do, but I can still make a comment to something you are saying about PF.
And will continue to do so. Remember I was with you in Bellefonte that day. I know what all was said, so watch what you are telling and how you are telling it. I know!

[sherrijean981]

TG, I now understand how you felt!

[Cinderella]

I stated the truth of the meeting with P.F. I don't know why I am being attacked about telling the truth. I guess that is another mystery.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]"On the personal side, he was very reserved and kept things to himself," said Scott Conklin, a county commissioner who like a number of employees had dealings with Gricar right before he vanished. "**But he showed no signs of unusual behavior in the weeks leading up to this,** so it is baffling."

[S]ome local people - like attorney Bryant - think that with his retirement imminent and with possible symptoms of depression, that Gricar may have met the same fate as his brother.

But others say [that] Gricar was looking forward to stepping down and **was not acting any different from usual right up until the day he vanished.** County commissioner Chris Exarchos saw Gricar at a meeting the day before he disappeared and said "there was nothing remarkable about that meeting."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

********

This is not to say Gricar did not enjoy the occasional puzzler along with the Grey Goose martini he invariably ordered while awaiting his table at the bar of the Gamble Mill Inn.

"**Every Friday,** he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

********

For the last couple of Friday afternoons at the dark and historic creekside eatery called Gamble Mill Restaurant, bartenders have kept glancing over at Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar's usual spot at the bar.

"They look over at the little spot he used to sit in," with his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, playing their **weekly game** of Trivial Pursuit as he sipped a Grey Goose martini, said the restaurant manager, Andi Heidt-Nixdorf. "When every Friday comes along, they think they're going to see him."

But no one in this Victorian-tinged, mountainside county seat is known to have seen the 59-year-old Gricar - a button-down, lifelong prosecutor looking to retire at year's end - in the last 28 days.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htm [/*]

UTR, I agree with you. I always thought that they went to eat at the Gamble Mill on Friday's. I am wondering why they would be counting down the days to Ray's retirement when it was months away.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]


Surely he must have conversed with others during that previous month. I seriously doubt that a busy prosecution attorney such as RG was limited to contact with only his staff and SO. If others outside of the office and home noticed a difference, why haven't they come forward?
JMO [/*]

Spotts wasn't a staff member, however. She was with the judge's office. The bulk of the contact would be with the SO or the office staff.

As the quotes from the restaurant people, it conflicts with Sloane's statement. It does not seem like a set date.

And, as for the restaurant being like a social club, other than ordering, he wasn't too much interaction with the staff. If he played cards and talked at a club, maybe the fellow members may have noticed.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I have a question for you? If you was to drop all 3 scenarios and you was only dealing with foul play---with what evidence that they have presented in your own opinion what would you suspect happened and how? I know thats going to be hard to answer but roughly if you only had foul play to go with in this case what do you feel would be reasons or possibilities on how or why?

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila [*]

Spotts wasn't a staff member, however. She was with the judge's office. The bulk of the contact would be with the SO or the office staff.

As the quotes from the restaurant people, it conflicts with Sloane's statement. It does not seem like a set date.

And, as for the restaurant being like a social club, other than ordering, he wasn't too much interaction with the staff. If he played cards and talked at a club, maybe the fellow members may have noticed. [/*]

I have eaten at Gamble Mill. Their food is outstanding. The service is outstanding. I am sure that Ray knew everyone that worked there. I am sure that the staff could sense his moods.

S1, thank you, and Merry Christmas.

Cind, that's what I've read in a number of sources, that the Gamble Mill was a regular thing on Friday nights.

JJ, Sloane would have a lot less knowledge than the **bartender** and the **manager** of the Gamble Mill. You're the one that keeps pointing out that he was "out on disability." "Barbara" and Andi Heidt-Nixdorf actually worked in the bar and restaurant. Unless Sloane was invited to go with RG and PF every time they went out to dinner at the Gamble Mill, how would he know better than the employees there?

[Politigal]

So good to have you back UTR.....

I've missed your posts, and you missed my "cyber" Christmas gift on the regular board...

[Cinderella]

Whe I ate at the Gamble Mill the staff was very friendly and very much wanting to please their patrons. They would chat with people while they were serving or taking orders. They just didn't take orders. They went out of their way for you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is what Sloane said:

Sloane said Gricar was looking forward to retirement. It would mean more time to see his daughter and more time to see the leaves change in Vermont and pop into antique stores to find a treasured addition to his collection of antique cameras.

Gricar was so excited, in fact, that he and Fornicola would often get together at a restaurant on a Friday night, order drinks and count down the days to retirement.

“They would toast how close it was getting,” Sloane said. “He knew how many days were left.”



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/


UTR, are you suggesting that bartender and waitress kept a log of RFG's and PEF's coming and goings? Did the check the credit card bills before making that statement (assuming that RFG always used a charge card)?

One interesting thing is that everyone mentions stopping for drinks, not a meal. I can understand fairly easily about a bar being an end of the week type of thing, when both were working. Both were not working on 4/15/05.

Originally posted by Politigal [*]So good to have you back UTR.....

I've missed your posts, and you missed my "cyber" Christmas gift on the regular board... [/*]

I will check it out, Pgal. Figured I'd better get back here to help keep order.

Have a wonderful Christmas . . .

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]Whe I ate at the Gamble Mill the staff was very friendly and very much wanting to please their patrons. They would chat with people while they were serving or taking orders. They just didn't take orders. They went out of their way for you. [/*]

Did they carry on in depth conversations with you?