Pete Bosak's Question and Answer

[Cinderella]

Rumor is:

BJL's asked someone to borrow equipment to dig.

BJL's was concreting the weekend that Ray disappeared.

BJL's bragged about killing Ray, that Ray would not prosecute any
one again.

BJL's stated that Ray's body would not be found.

Many friends have been accessory to the murder because they know what BJL's told them first hand. They are just a guilty as he is in that they never reported what they knew to the police.

Why didn't BJL's just take care of himself without taking Ray with him?

Has this been covered up because BJL's is the fathers of Patty Fornicola's second cousin? Is that why PF isn't speaking?

BJL's opening told others that he killed Ray, yet the ones that he told kept it a secret.

Need I say more????????? When will LE listen to the citizens and make this wrong, right? Who is the higher power that is blocking this case.

I usally don't wish bad things on people, but I hope that everyone that with held the truth, sees Ray's ghost constantly.
I would like to know what was on Ray's cellphone, and also who gave BJL's the alabi other than his daughter. What a pressure to put on someone who has yet to graduate high school.

Let's not upset the family, just keep the skeltons in the closet.
Everyone that has know about this has Ray's blood on their hands. Ray's blood doesn't wash off.

BTW, someone wanted to know about what happened to the truck that BJL's had when he committed suicide. His Dad Joe, who just got a slap on the wrist for insurance fraud is driving it around.

When are we going to get newspapers that get us the information instead of us giving them the information. One thing about it is that everyone who wants to cimmit a crime and get off should move to Centre County where you pat my back and I will pat your back.

I am so pissed off that I can't continue. I have lost all faith in the LE and the justice system. I imagine LE know from the suicide scene about the letter. We need new honest people in our government.

Too back there isn't a middle finger icon as I would be using it to all that have know this from day one.

JMO, MOO

I also wonder if they have known where the body is? Since they don't have the resources, it would take to much money and trouble to properly bury Ray. But then again, Ray is just another person to step on to get where you want to go.

I live in Centre County and I hate the politics and the bull **** that goes on. I hope that Ray is getting his revenge in by hauntings.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]I posted a while back about hearing that BJL's left a suicide note that stated that he killed Ray Gricar. I didn't have the true source, only a good source witness. So I was right after all.

Please read Pete's Blog on 10/08/07.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centre.../qa_forum.html

For some reason, BJL's name is being protected. Yet time after time everyone has told LE until they are blue in the face that they thought that BJL's did Ray in. Rockview State Police put a stop to anyone accusing BJL's. [/*]

You might want to re-read the posting by Pete. He didn't say all 4 pieces were true.

And I'll repeat this once again: There has never been one single (zero) witness to corroborate any such boastings that he killed Ray and that his body would never be found. The PSP, BPD, and even myself have followed-up with any possible names (including some provided by board members) and, I'll say it again: zero have proven out.

BJL or JL would be very easy to "credit" this to, but the reality is, very little of what you posted is accurate.

[Cinderella]

It would be my upmost desire to have LE take another look at BJL and JL. To use shoe leather and go to the places that BJL and JL frequented. To talk to neighbors of BJL. I am hoping that someone will speak up. These are two men that held grudges against Ray for doing his job. I want to see justice for Ray and I truly feel that it starts here. I am sure that some people are afraid to speak up for fear of retailation.

Has LE ever talked to the aunt? I think that she could greatly help them.

JMO, MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

I should point out something. JL was arrested and, IIRC, did time; LE has his DNA and prints. LE obviously has BJL DNA and prints. They have not made a connection.

That might be because there is no connection.

[J. J. in Phila]

Logic, I'm not sure that LE didn't search the areas. We do know that the PSP did a time line, but we don't know what information they used for constructing it (This would be the area where a grand jury would be useful).

If there would have been anything tying the L's, father and/or son, with the Mini, or the parking lot, LE would have made the link.

[Cinderella]

J. J.

LOL, what timeline. The only timeline that they have is the last time that PF stated that she saw Ray then until they found the car. The CF timeline or the man from Rebersburg stating that he saw Ray doesn't add into their timeline.

At least we got another clue, a cryptic note written by BJL.

Originally posted by logicworks [*]

And it might be because they didn't take a scent dog to either BJL's truck or JL's truck or properties to determine if there was any evidence of RG scent present.

[snip]
What we need to know is whether a scent dog was taken to both trucks and checked for RG's scent, and if the properties were checked out by a scent dog and a cadaver dog. [/*]

If dogs were taken onto private property, wouldn't a search warrant have been needed? I seem to remember from the Amy Mullins case that the dogs originally couldn't go further than the front door of the property until LE obtained the search warrant. I would think/hope the media would have gotten wind of a search warrant being executed at either Leathers' property and that we would have heard about it had it happened.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]J. J.

LOL, what timeline. The only timeline that they have is the last time that PF stated that she saw Ray then until they found the car. The CF timeline or the man from Rebersburg stating that he saw Ray doesn't add into their timeline.

At least we got another clue, a cryptic note written by BJL. [/*]

The PSP did one for BJL, though I don't know what the did. A grand jury could find out (hint, hint).

UTR, I thought that there was the possibility, at least of search warrants being issued. They wouldn't necessarily have to be made public.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]J. J.

LOL, what timeline. The only timeline that they have is the last time that PF stated that she saw Ray then until they found the car. The CF timeline or the man from Rebersburg stating that he saw Ray doesn't add into their timeline.

At least we got another clue, a cryptic note written by BJL. [/*]

The PSP ran the BJL timeline, not the BPD. BJL was accounted for, especially when paired up with the last time Patty saw Ray. It leaves a fairly short amount of time that Leathers needed to be accounted for, which they did.

And what cryptic letter are you referring to? I hope you're speaking of something other than a suicide note.

Also, feel free to have your Rebersburg man contact me with his information. Based on your account of what he saw, he would seem to be corroborating some form of runaway theory, ostensibly aided by PF due to his apparently being in bed around that time. On your, and his, timeline, that would put Ray leaving at a minimum of 7am.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]If dogs were taken onto private property, wouldn't a search warrant have been needed? [/*]

You are correct.

I am aware of one case where it was entered into evidence the cadaver dogs searching the outside of the house, but hitting on something inside. I believe it had something to do with the use of a utility right of way/easement.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila [*]The PSP did one for BJL, though I don't know what the did. A grand jury could find out (hint, hint).

UTR, I thought that there was the possibility, at least of search warrants being issued. They wouldn't necessarily have to be made public. [/*]

I am not aware of any search warrants being issued. Received consent to search might be another matter.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]I am rather curious whether it was the blue and silver truck that he owned that he was driving that evening, considering there was no blood stains or bullet holes in the truck. I wonder if it was possible he was driving the red one instead, and the other truck was sold after the 'supposed suicide'. Seems rather strange for there to be neither blood stains nor bullet holes present.
JMO [/*]

I think the urban legends surrounding BJL's death continue to grow.

IIRC, I believe it was a red truck he had with him.

[Cinderella]

J. J.,

Glad to see you tonight. Hope that you are doing well.

Question...What makes a person or a friend tell the truth? A lot of people anymore don't believe in God and they don't have to swear on a Bible anymore. BJL had a group of good friends who thought that Ray was picking on BJL.

I also hear that someone who gave JL an alibi stated to JL that he would never lie for him again.

You can't force a person to take a lie detector test which supposedly isn't 100% accurate.

People seem to be more willing to tell a private person something compared to telling LE. It doesn't mean that they are lying, they just don't want involved.

I am not saying that BJL, JL or any certain person harmed Ray, but in small towns people talk. It is not like Philadelphia. Yes sometimes wrong things are said, but a lot of times there is some truth into what is being said.

All that I know is that Ray deserved better than this. He deserves to be found, if that is possible. He deserves to be buried where he would want to be.

I feel that the more people that come out and say that they saw something would bring more people out. I am glad that Pete posted that. Someone knows something.

I bet if someone started questioning people using good old shoe leather work, that someone might start watching them and whoever did harm to Ray would start to get nervous. BTW, I don't feel that if BJL's did harm to Ray that he did it all by himself. He just might have been ordered to get rid of the body. As I feel that someone else ruled his life.

I hope that soon, we find the answers to what really happened.
Keep praying.

NancynNC
Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 229


Here is some of what I found about the other guy that committed suicide and was found on the 17th.

Posted on Sun, Apr. 17, 2005
Police: Man accused in domestic case commits suicide
By Adam Smeltz

BOGGS TOWNSHIP -- A Howard man accused of attempted murder last year was found dead this morning, the victim of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, state police at Rockview said.

Billy Joe Leathers, 34, pleaded guilty in January to reckless endangerment, a charge stemming from a domestic-violence incident in September. He was not convicted of attempted murder, a charge filed in connection with the same incident.

Leathers served 17 days in jail and was ordered to pay a $250 fine.

He was found dead in his car at 1:23 a.m. today along South Eagle Valley Road, police said.

An investigation is continuing, but police said there's no indication that the suicide is connected to the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar. Gricar, last seen Friday, remained missing this afternoon.

It would have had to be pretty fast work IMO to have a man found dead at 1:23 a.m., get search warrants, get dogs to the scene, and then arrive at a conclusion published probably within 12 hours that there was no indication that the suicide was connected to RG's disappearance. JMO.

[Politigal]

Was it ever reported that they even got search warrants or used dogs there?

Perhaps they just took the word of his SO....

edited to add:

and wasn't BJL cremated just a couple days later?

[Politigal]

I found my post from Sept -- BJL was autopsied and then cremated 4/20/05.

Very quick work indeed.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*][/i]It would have had to be pretty fast work IMO to have a man found dead at 1:23 a.m., get search warrants, get dogs to the scene, and then arrive at a conclusion published probably within 12 hours that there was no indication that the suicide was connected to RG's disappearance. JMO. [/*]

Not that it really matters, but I'm not sure that story ever ran in the print edition of the CDT. I believe it was actually a posting on Smeltz's CDT blog.

I am a bit surprised that you've never heard LE do a press conf or Q&A where they said, "At this time, we have no indication...". To me, without the PSP having evidence, any comment to the contrary would be irresponsible.

edited to add:
The PSP timeline/investigation lasted a week IIRC. I'd think it goes without saying that I was as interested in anyone on following up on that investigation. After that, they, and BPD, followed up on the infamous bar boasting tips that everyone, and no one, heard.

[tonyGricar]

Pete the Prescient:

Q: Seems to me this is being 'swept under the rug'. Delays, excuses, denials, Refusals ...Makes one wonder? What do you think?
Anonymous, Burke VA 10/20/06

A: I don't believe anything is being "swept under the rug." What it looks like to me is that police have exhausted all leads and simply have nowhere to go at this point. No tips and no new leads have been called in to police since April. So where to police go from here? I still get question after question about whether the late Billy Joe Leathers could have been involved somehow. And police, time and time again, have insisted he was not. Perhaps this shows best that the investigation is at a standstill, these old rumors and long ago discredited theories resurfacing again. There's just nothing new to go on.
Pete Bosak 10/31/06

[Politigal]

IMO, the timing of BJL's suicide with Gricar's disappearance was just coincidental.

True, there was a connection between Gricar and Leathers with the domestic violence case.

And reportedly, the mother of Leather's daughter is related to Patty Fornicola.

Other than those connections, I guess the rest is just rumor.

Originally posted by tonyGricar


I am a bit surprised that you've never heard LE do a press conf or Q&A where they said, "At this time, we have no indication...". To me, without the PSP having evidence, any comment to the contrary would be irresponsible.

Of course I've heard such statements, all the time in ongoing investigations. And of course I understand the article says "the investigation is ongoing." My point was merely that it would have been quick work to get scent dogs and/or cadaver dogs in there with a warrant, with the article being put up within such a short time of BJL's actual death. Warrants take time, and getting dogs together takes time. Didn't appear to me there was enough time to have all that occur before the article publication.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]Of course I've heard such statements, all the time in ongoing investigations. And of course I understand the article says "the investigation is ongoing." My point was merely that it would have been quick work to get scent dogs and/or cadaver dogs in there with a warrant, with the article being put up within such a short time of BJL's actual death. Warrants take time, and getting dogs together takes time. Didn't appear to me there was enough time to have all that occur before the article publication. [/*]

Couldn't agree more.

[Cloudbuster]

I have thought about the BJL connection all day and I tried to think how there could be a possible connection and I think it's possible there is one that just don't stand out. When I observe that BJL died sunday at 1:23 am it's within hours of him most likely learning saturday April 16th of Ray's disapearance and I would think he saw it on TV at the Milesburg Legion.

He was found dead in his car???? at 1:23 a.m. today along South Eagle Valley Road, police said. (if he had the red truck per TG then thats JL's truck).

An investigation is continuing, but police said there's no indication that the suicide is connected to the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar. Gricar, last seen Friday, remained missing this afternoon ....as per CDT.

Okay we know no prints was found in the mini, no evidence there. If this was BJL I think there would be prints. MOO.

What we do have is a man within hours of seeing that RG disappeared then commits suicide at 1:23 am. That timing is important. What would make BJL within hours decide to do himself in?

Answer: Seeing Ray had disappeared. When he saw the news on TV and he could have said" I guarentee he will never try another case". Okay but he may not have nessarily said that at the bar. He could have said something to that effect to his wife Terry and what he was saying might have caused her to believe that he did Ray in when he might not have been coming accross clearly to her (alcohol coupled with panic) and she might be where the rumor orginated at and later on carried it to the bar ect. I base that on BJL showing up at her place at what time? and dies at 1:23 am when the bar was nearing closing time. Why then decide to do that?



What provoked him to even go to Terrys at that hour? I stepped in his shoes to see if it was possible that after hours of seeing the disappearance on TV what was going thru his mind? The big word is panic and inward fear. At first it would appear to him that RG was not coming back but he had time to ponder on this as to why RG was not coming back. He knew and figured out who had RG and after thinking about it he would know that Ray might have been made to TALK. Panic and fear swept over in this scenario. I think he knew who had Ray and it suddenly dawned on him that Ray would talk as to where he got his information from. Was BJL the source of information? When BJL went to court they need to see if BJL had spoke to Ray inside or after the hearing at all? I think that would have been a good time to give Ray the information on his dad and I believe names of people involved.

I don't think Ray would have given diddle crap about JL's arson and insurance fraud so I think BJL would of needed to tell Ray something more that would spark Rays interest. Something that also involved someone in gov, someone that Ray would know. I think Ray started looking into it and putting it together. BJL might have told him even what to look at. Ray did put a statement in the paper that there was no proof of a shooting in BJL's case.? BJL was angry with his wife and dad so telling Ray anything would be a releasing of anger on BJLs part.

Now BJL nows that those people don't mess around and he would have EVERY reason to believ that Ray gave up his name. He then panics. He don't go home where his dad is because how does he know they haven't arrived there yet or even how does he trust his dad? he would be a sitting duck at his dads residence. No he can't go to his mom's house because why put her in danger? Instead he shows up to terrys hoping to get her to help him to know what to do or that he just didn't want to be alone possibly was intenting to shoot himself and not wanting to be alone. He gets to Terrrys and she gets angry and he is trying to tell her what was going on but it wasn't sounding the way it was supposed to. He panics and shoots himself. I believe if someone else shot him they would NOT have left a witness (Terry) behind. I think BJL knew what was going on by just the fact that Ray disappeared. I feel the misfortune of his timly death was connected to Ray but just not the way everyone is thinking. I feel badly for him and his family!!!! Thats why I think there is no evidence and they ruled him out so quickly because it didn't seem to have any connection evidence speaking.

Now the key part is what did BJL know that he would have told Ray? We have 3 keywords to work with:
Arson
Fires
Insurance
work them and see where a connection is to Ray. Another angle is when BJL could have spoken to Ray.

Sorry I just think they looked at this the wrong way but can see why cause i think we all did.

Just a possible theory disclaimer.

[J. J. in Phila]

One possibility, which would account for a "clean time line" would be BJL was not involved in a murder, but knew who was, and was killed to tie up a loose end.

It doesn't appear to be too much of a stretch, considering that BLJ had some "shady" connections.

And, it might be an unrelated event, the suicide of a troubled individual.

We are far from the point of saying that either BJL's death or RFG's disappearance was due to murder.

One thing that a grand jury could do is look at any connection.

[J. J. in Phila]

LW, one thing we don't know is what the PSP time line shows. That's one of the many reasons I think there should be a grand jury.

It does however look like by 6:00 PM, he and the rest of the county could have found out that RFG was missing. The press conference was late Saturday afternoon and it's likely that radio at least, would have reported it.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]

That is the BIG question.
If BJL was in the bar and the news at 11 p.m? announced RG's car had been found in Lewisburg, possibly something 'clicked' with BJL; something that caused him to think of TL.

Where was the gun he used to commit suicide located at the time he left the bar? In his vehicle, and what vehicle was it? Did someone at the bar see what he was driving that night?
OR did he leave the bar and go to TL's, where the gun may have been, to check to see if his gun might have been used? OR did he go to JL's, where he was living at the time, collect the weapon and then go back to TL's?

We need to know BJL's travels AFTER hearing the news, AFTER leaving the bar for more insight into whether BJL immediately had something come to mind that he then went to check out for himself to see if it might be true. IMO, until that is cleared up, I don't believe involvement can be eliminated with any degree of certainty.
JMO [/*]

LW of course you may be right. Im just trying to see why or how if at all this fits. I do believe there is a connection though. That connection involves the keywords that gotta be worked. Let me ask a question? Does anyone know if JL's gave BJL a part of the timeline of his whereabouts or was it his mom or Terrry or BJLs daughter? Also does anyone know if JL's place is close to a park? Also could any of the properties be near a park?
jmho

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster [*]

LW of course you may be right. Im just trying to see why or how if at all this fits. I do believe there is a connection though. That connection involves the keywords that gotta be worked. Let me ask a question? Does anyone know if JL's gave BJL a part of the timeline of his whereabouts or was it his mom or Terrry or BJLs daughter? Also does anyone know if JL's place is close to a park? Also could any of the properties be near a park?
jmho [/*]

CB, You pass it when you are traveling to camp. Not far from the truck stop we have talked about.


LW, that was a good link. We have been there for birthday parties/reunions in the last couple years, very nice park.

[sherrijean981]

CB, Your mailbox is full - email.

[Cinderella]

This is taken from my copy of the Centre Daily times. I don't have the date on the paper as I was recouperating and just tore it out to keep it. It states the following property transactions, the most recent released to the CDT, were recorded September 17. 2007, through September 21, 2007, in the office of the Centre County Recorder of Deeds.


Check the map out to see how close the water is to the property. Another thing that should be considered is that Dowdly Hole Road borders the water that flows to the Joseph Foster Sayers Dam. I will just call it the Howard Dam.

The Laptop and Hard drive could very well have been put into that water that would be in the J. Leather's backyard. Who is going to watch a neighbor go out back toward the water. That water area behind his house is pretty desolate. Not many boats that I know go up that far.

Here is a link as to what it looks like towards the Dowdy Hole Road:

http://www.nab.usace.army.mil/recreation/sayers.htm



These are the Leathers Real Estate Transactions:

Howard Township Listings for Leathers:

Joseph C. Leathers, and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, property located alosng state Route 150. $1

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 350 W. Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheerler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 548 W. Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 554 W. Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 350 Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
*****I am wondering if Liberty Township contains the Little Marsh Creek properties?***************
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liberty Township Listings for Leathers:

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, property located along state Route 1002. $1.

Unionville Borough Listings of Leathers:

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Mary L. Wheeler, 300 Walnut St. $1.

Jospeh C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Mary L Wheeler, 381 Walnut St. $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Mary L. Wheeler, 371 Walnut St. $1.



**Note to Logic, As I was searching to what township the Little Marsh Creek Road is in. I discovers a Hunters Run Road. It is not at the Howard Dam. Funny that I was going to tell you that the other day as I went to search for an address, Hunters Run Road came up. I considered it a sign.

[Cloudbuster]

SJ I unclogged it lol.
Cind and LW thanks for the links. Its interesting that there seems to be alot of property. Hmm I thought JL is not employed? okay Im scratching my head lol. Im not going to get into the rumor end of it but.... sometimes things just don't look right to me. Most of the Dowdy are farmlands. Can you tell if Dowdy has a chapel or church on that street?

[Cloudbuster]

There was a church nearby but it burned.
http://www.howardfire.com/Call-log.html

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]


Just reading the energy in the first photo from this link, I would definitely guess the cause of fire was arson, but the second photo with the 'heart' is just as interesting. I wonder how close that was to DHR property(s) and in what direction from where the photographer was standing.

http://www.howardfire.com/Church%20F...uary,2007.html

Also looking at the other fire on Jan. 1, seemingly two hours before that one, a 'red and white' building caught my attention, looking for those 'markers' in other areas to see if they show up all together in another area, pointing a direction.
JMO [/*]

Weren't there at least 4 fires that night supposedly by the same person/s?

[Cinderella]

In the first picture if you look at the picture in a certain way, I can see a face of a person above the church. It blends in with the fire and smoke.

I see an orb by the door.

In the fourth picture across, it looks to be a man standing in the doorway with his head kind of hung down. He is wearing a white tee shirt. I think that this is an apparition as this man could not be standing in that doorway at that time.

I do believe that JL had some heart problems after BJL's death, but I am not 100% sure.

I also see the heart that you are talking about.

This church is very close to the JL house.

It was rumored that 4 kids went on a wild week-end spree setting fires. I think in the end, the car was wrecked and a girl died. One of the kids took their parents car and didn't tell them.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]In the first picture if you look at the picture in a certain way, I can see a face of a person above the church. It blends in with the fire and smoke.

I see an orb by the door.

In the fourth picture across, it looks to be a man standing in the doorway with his head kind of hung down. He is wearing a white tee shirt. I think that this is an apparition as this man could not be standing in that doorway at that time.

I do believe that JL had some heart problems after BJL's death, but I am not 100% sure.

I also see the heart that you are talking about.

This church is very close to the JL house.

It was rumored that 4 kids went on a wild week-end spree setting fires. I think in the end, the car was wrecked and a girl died. One of the kids took their parents car and didn't tell them. [/*]

Is that who did it? I saw the article in the paper that they wrecked the car going up Rt 144 towards Snow Shoe, maybe 4:30/5:00 am? I questioned if they could have done it since they were in the area. I didn't see a follow up, missed that.

I was looking at Mapquest today while talking to CB. We were questioning the Dowdy Hill Rd and Nursery Rd intersection and where in the vicinity to JL's place the church would be. Also the township where ML had her properties? I thought the township would be near Unionville but no street by that name, but the one in Howard goes from Rt 150 through town.

I also saw the E Dowdy Rd has a dead end at the water, pick up later on another road. There is also what looks like a dirt road from JL end of Dowdy Rd that goes down to a water way. Where maybe a body or laptop could have been put.

It is rather odd to me all the church arson's in one night. I had wondered at first if JL could have been involved since he was notorious for arson and they were in his neighborhood, all easily accessible to him rather quickly, one by Curtin Rd to Milesburg.
jmo

[Cinderella]

I don't think that they proved to set the fires. I only heard rumors at the beginning, but never heard anymore. There was also a fire at a person's large garage in Unionville. I thought that I heard that there were bottles containing some type of liquid to set off the fires and that they might have been thrown.

To set the record straight, Little Marsh Creek Road is in Boggs Township. I didn't see that address on the real estate transactions.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]In the first picture if you look at the picture in a certain way, I can see a face of a person above the church. It blends in with the fire and smoke.

I see an orb by the door.

In the fourth picture across, it looks to be a man standing in the doorway with his head kind of hung down. He is wearing a white tee shirt. I think that this is an apparition as this man could not be standing in that doorway at that time.

I do believe that JL had some heart problems after BJL's death, but I am not 100% sure.

I also see the heart that you are talking about.

This church is very close to the JL house.

It was rumored that 4 kids went on a wild week-end spree setting fires. I think in the end, the car was wrecked and a girl died. One of the kids took their parents car and didn't tell them. [/*]

#1 Photo - I see a very large ball of white behind the church and on the right side of the fire truck you can see a sign or mailbox on the other side of the road.

#2 Photo - I see a horse head in the smoke, with the snout at the bottom of the tree - above lower back roof. I also see 4 or 5 orbs.

#3 Photo I see a light in the back yard, near shed?, that isn't seen in other photo's.

#4 Photo over I can see 2 faces in the smoke, above the left hand part of the church. One is in the blacker smoke area and the other is below it.

I wonder who's cars are sitting next to the church? If firemen you would think they would know not to park that close to the fire.

If someone is standing there holding their heart I don't see it, but it is probably because even a church isn't safe from vandals/arsons.

[Cinderella]

SherriJean,

I also see the two faces on picture four. The one looks like it is the one on picture one abvove the church looking this way. Don't blow up the picture or you won't see it. The two faces appear to be talking. It looks to be a hand in front of the face on the left.

Look at the apparition of a man standing by the door where the orange is. You have to enlarge the picture. He is standing to the left of the thing that has the dots. His head is down, white tee shirt, belt, trousers. He looks as if he is walking out. But he can't be real.

I can't see your horse, but I did see a picture with a horse like rearing up. I saw its feet. It is in the 5th picture in the air close to the white above the church.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella [*]SherriJean,

I also see the two faces on picture four. The one looks like it is the one on picture one abvove the church looking this way. Don't blow up the picture or you won't see it. The two faces appear to be talking. It looks to be a hand in front of the face on the left.

Look at the apparition of a man standing by the door where the orange is. You have to enlarge the picture. He is standing to the left of the thing that has the dots. His head is down, white tee shirt, belt, trousers. He looks as if he is walking out. But he can't be real.

I can't see your horse, but I did see a picture with a horse like rearing up. I saw its feet. It is in the 5th picture in the air close to the white above the church. [/*]

I see the man, sleevelss tee shirt?

[Cinderella]

I see the blue floating thing also.

If the man has an unbuttoned shirt on then it is just on his arms.

[day2day]

Originally posted by logicworks [*]http://www.howardfire.com/Church%20F...uary,2007.html

If you go to photo #1, to the right of the firetruck,, there appears to be something there that is so absolutely out of place looking, I couldn't help but take a good look at it. It looks like a bed or a sofa, aqua blue cover, just floating there. When I zoom in on it, I can't make out which it is. Does it show up any clearer on anyone else's computer?

If you check out the license plate numbers in the photos, you will see Cloudbuster's 111 # showing up also on the one vehicle closest to the fire.

JMO [/*]

Could that be a street sign?

[Cinderella]

day2day, I think that you are right. I think that is the street sign.