Do You Feel That PF Was Fully Investigated?

[Politigal]

Going by what's been reported......

Considering that the disappearance wasn't initially looked at as a crime

Considering that the investigation was based on her version of events

Considering that there was no real forensic investigation inside the home

Considering the laptop case wasn't dusted for prints

Considering that PF wasn't given a polygraph until 3 months after the disappearance

And, considering that she was the last known person to have been with Gricar, having access to his personal effects, the laptop, the car and the cellphone....

Do you feel that she was fully investigated as a possible suspect in RG's disappearance?

Yes. My opinion...and without regard to the fact that you have stated many things which presume facts which ARE NOT in evidence.

I feel that she passed the polygraph. She has been forthcoming. She is a victim. There has never been one shred of evidence that suggests that she would have any reason to harm Ray. In order to pull off the kind of cockamamie story that you think she did she would have had to involve numerous others in order to help her dispose of the body and cover all her tracks. I would never help anyone for any reason do the kinds of things that they would have had to do. Why would ANYONE risk their freedom , career, family, fines all of that to help her dispose of Ray's body? The answer is they would not! No one in their right mind would. I used to enjoy reading the boards and contributing. I don't anymore because of people such as Politigal who can not seem to understand that this constant Patty bashing takes a toll on morale. The truth is Miss Perfect (politigal) if someone you love just goes poof and dissapears into thin air you do not know what you would do! Do you think that you would remain calm and do everything right? Do you think that you could even dial a phone? Do you think that you could calmly and methodically do everything perfectly? Even if you did do all the " right things" do you think that they would make a difference? Have you ever been kidnapped before? Have you ever been a victim? Let me tell you hindsight is always 20/20! Do you know how to put yourself in someone elses shoes? Do you have a compassionate heart? If your loved one went poof would you want people pointing the finger at you? How about if they rode your arse like a bull in a rodeo. Do you think you would like that?

[Politigal]

here we go again....with the hateful posts ....

calling me "Miss Perfect"

If you don't like the thread topic - you can ignore it

Stop the name calling please

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1 [*]Yes. My opinion...and without regard to the fact that you have stated many things which presume facts which ARE NOT in evidence. [/*]

Please list which are not in evidence.

I plainly stated - "going by what's been reported"

[J. J. in Phila]

Considering that LE was looking at a potential crime after the Mini was found.

Considering that PEF's version was backed up by the following physical evidence:

1. A cell call make from the Brush Valley area at a time when she could have not have made the call.

2. The Mini, with only evidence of RFG driving it there, found nearly fifty miles away. And considering the impossibility of her driving two cars and of anyone driving the Mini from Bellefonte to Lewisburg without leaving some trace, without removing the evidence that RFG had driven it.

3. The scent found in the parking lot.

That being coupled with witnesses placing both RFG and the Mini in Lewisburg, only after noon on 4/15/05.

Considering that the residence was searched with PEF's permission and that family members had access to the residence within 36 hours of the report. And considering that LE found no evidence of anything amiss.

And finally, considering that even a year delay would not not affect the polygraph results.

I would say PEF has been thoroughly investigated.

I think that the claim the claim that she was the "last person" is false.

[sherrijean981]

J.J. I agree with your post.

First I want to add that RG was not just a SO. He was the DA of CC. He was working on many cases at the time. He had been tired to the point PF was concerned for him and ask him to see a doctor.

She was calling his cell, and she called her brother which probably calmed her down. They might be very close to each other and talk daily. Nothing wrong with that. Later she called LE. They would know if any accidents happened on the highways. They had access to other LE departments and PSP.

It was unusual for RG to be out like that, that late, without a call.
He wasn't answering his phone, both things that could mean he had an accident. I think she did the right thing.

I don't understand what the questions are concerning PF calling her brother. Her brother for goodness sake. He is family, maybe her support system, in all things. Don't we all have someone in our family we can call and worry with? I do.

JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Considering that the residence was searched with PEF's permission and that family members had access to the residence within 36 hours of the report. And considering that LE found no evidence of anything amiss.

And finally, considering that even a year delay would not not affect the polygraph results.

I would say PEF has been thoroughly investigated.

I think that the claim the claim that she was the "last person" is false. [/*]

I posted a link previously that said family and LE made RG and PF's home headquarters for a couple weeks. They were in and out all the time. They had meals there, watched the news there and talked together there. I think LE and even others probably had more than enough opportunity to look around, with PF's permission.

TG also said both PF and LG had many long hours of being polygraphed and interviewed. They found neither were invovled or had any knowledge of where he was.
JMO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981 [*]

I posted a link previously that said family and LE made RG and PF's home headquarters for a couple weeks. They were in and out all the time. They had meals there, watched the news there and talked together there. I think LE and even others probably had more than enough opportunity to look around, with PF's permission.

TG also said both PF and LG had many long hours of being polygraphed and interviewed. They found neither were invovled or had any knowledge of where he was.
JMO [/*]

I believe there were some descriptions of a constant LE presence there on the first few weeks. It's going to be impossible to take anything large (like a body or a bloodstained carpet) out of the house in that situation.

[Politigal]

I've rec'd notice that some are not able to vote -No- on this poll.

Seems to be some sort of "glitch" ---

You should know about hateful posts Politigal....you set the standard. I should think that you would take Miss Perfect as quite the compliment considering that you can point the finger at Patty repeatedly and name all the things you think she did or did not do and should and should not have done. You must do things just right and you must think you are above reproach.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff [*]You should know about hateful posts Politigal....you set the standard. I should think that you would take Miss Perfect as quite the compliment considering that you can point the finger at Patty repeatedly and name all the things you think she did or did not do and should and should not have done. You must do things just right and you must think you are above reproach. [/*]

I don't believe I did "set the standard."

I've seen more hate from the good "Christians" on this board than anyone.

But, I guess you only see what you want to see.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal [*]I've rec'd notice that some are not able to vote -No- on this poll.

Seems to be some sort of "glitch" --- [/*]

Ghosts, Goblins and Spirits more likely!

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherrijean981 [*]

Ghosts, Goblins and Spirits more likely! [/*]

It may have just been that person's computer.

I don't believe in ghosts, goblins, spirits or witches.....

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal [*]

It may have just been that person's computer.

I don't believe in ghosts, goblins, spirits or witches..... [/*]

Referring to the season only.

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff
I feel that she passed the polygraph.

Good for your "feelings," but not so good for anything concrete regarding whether or not PF was involved in RG's disappearance.

In most cases, "inner circle" people are polygraphed early in the case, and investigative information isn't shared with them until they have taken the polygraph. In this situation, we have Zaccagni saying PF was "never a suspect" and LE handling her with kid gloves--no polygraph and sharing investigative information with her for three months before she took a poly which she volunteered for. Now maybe she is completely clean in this whole situation, but if not, that certainly muddies the waters for the polygraph--three months of shared information and three months of time to brush up on the kind of techniques Diane Sawyer learned and demonstrated in that TV segment on how to pass a polygraph, all available on the web to anyone who wants to pay 49 bucks and download the strategy. Even minus such "cheat sheets," people like Gary Ridgway have passed multiple polygraphs while innocent folks like the cab driver suspected in Ridgway's crimes have failed them.

That's why polys are inadmissible in court. Just yesterday I was reading an article about a situation where a lawyer mentioned a passed poly in court and the judge struck the comment, advising jurors not to consider the poly, to remember that polygraphs are only an investigative tool. Everything I have read about polygraphs leads me to believe that LE uses them primarily to try to force confessions out of suspects and NOT to determine guilt or innocence of suspects.

I would never help anyone for any reason do the kinds of things that they would have had to do. Why would ANYONE risk their freedom , career, family, fines all of that to help her dispose of Ray's body? The answer is they would not! No one in their right mind would.

Do you follow many true crime stories, TOTG? Right off the top of my head, I'd suggest you talk to Gerry Capano, Tom Capano's brother, who helped Tom conceal Anne Marie Fahey's dismembered body by stuffing the body parts in coolers and tossing the coolers into the Atlantic Ocean. I'd also suggest you talk to Myisha Ferrell, alleged accomplice of Bobby Cutts, Jr., in the murder/disposal of the body of Jessie Marie Davis. Nope, nobody would risk their "freedom, career, family, fines" to help someone else dispose of a body.

I used to enjoy reading the boards and contributing. I don't anymore because of people such as Politigal who can not seem to understand that this constant Patty bashing takes a toll on morale.

But I guess you'd just love Pgal oodles and oodles if she were making the kind of direct accusations you do of JL on a fairly regular basis or the accusations against MM of "dirty hands" that you have. Pgal's sin apparently is not choosing the suspects YOU have in mind, because no one's posts have been more openly and directly accusatory against certain chosen suspects than yours have been, TOTG.

The fact that MM won't allow the case to go any higher and the fact that Taji Lee said that MM really knows where to kick the dirt makes me think MM hands may be dirty.
In addition I don't believe that the police have ever throughly investigated JL and I think they should. His own family thinks he is involved in this. I'd much rather point the finger at a known bad guy then a person who in my mind is a victim.
I stand by my thoughts and statements.
I am so thankful though that I am open to other theories because I do not have tunnel vision as some do.
All along my hope was that I could somehow help locate Ray and help solve the case. Until this case I have never been involved in a crime board.
I think it takes a very intelligent person to be able to look at all avenues in this case.
You want to defend JL go ahead. Just don't let him around your kids.

By the way UTR I think your last statement is way off base. I do not start threads saying so and so did it. I don't pull the kind of crap that some do having tons of info removed every time they get in a snit. I don't post thousands of post. Some of you old timers just want someone to pick on and argue with in my opinion.

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff

In addition I don't believe that the police have ever throughly investigated JL and I think they should.

Good. Then you should have no problem understanding that some here don't believe that police have ever "throughly" [sic] investigated PF and believe that they should.

I am so thankful though that I am open to other theories because I do not have tunnel vision as some do.

You incorrectly assume that those who want PF more thoroughly investigated 1) have not chased down umpteen different avenues looking for answers to this mystery and 2) do not remain open to other explanations.

You want to defend JL go ahead. Just don't let him around your kids.

Where do you see me defending JL? I am merely pointing out that you make direct accusations against JL on a regular basis when you post, then turn around and complain when someone else wants to look at a different possibility.

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff
By the way UTR I think your last statement is way off base. I do not start threads saying so and so did it. I don't pull the kind of crap that some do having tons of info removed every time they get in a snit. I don't post thousands of post. Some of you old timers just want someone to pick on and argue with in my opinion. [/*]

And I think you need to read more carefully. The statement you refer to said merely that you've been going after Pgal on this thread because she's been looking at PF, and that I believe that must be so because she's chosen the "wrong" suspect in your eyes since you have no trouble at all making open accusations against your suspect of choice.

All you've done on this thread is call Pgal names for looking at PF--no mention of thread or post removal. Who knew you were carrying some kind of grudge. It's not as if you had done hours of research that was lost on those threads.

Part of my problem with JL is that I don't think they ever truly did investigate him. He gave an alibi for his son BJL. BJL winds up dead the same weekend that Ray goes missing. Coincidence? They cleared BJL based on his Dad's word. But they did not clear JL. They have never ever looked into where he was that day did they? He hated Ray! The police need to dig so deep into what Joe was doing at that time. Where was he when Ray went missing. They need to talk with Terry Leathers also. They should both be polygraphed. Every time I write to Pete Bozak about JL he answers as if I had asked about BJL!
The fact that Patty has been cleared by police is good enough for me.
My problem with Poligal is that she will not let up on Patty even though she has been cleared and there is no evidence that she did anything wrong. Tunnel vision.
I am open to any and all theories.

Originally posted by gstickley
I guess I don't understand why apparently there was no evidence against JL &/or apparently no evidence against PF, but no one is allowed to mention PF. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't understand why either PF or JL would have been considered "cleared" when neither were considered "persons of interest" or "suspects" in the case and when PF was never asked to take a poly but took one only because she volunteered to for her own reasons, not for LE reasons. Nor do I understand why BJL's death was ruled a suicide in a nano-second and deemed to have no connection whatsoever to RG's disappearance in a blink of an eye.

But being "cleared" by LE doesn't necessarily mean much. Ira Einhorn was "cleared" by LE in Holly's disappearance, even though her new boyfriend Saul Lapidus had information that virtually linked the disappearance to Einhorn and had brought that information to LE. If not for one stubborn investigator who pushed the issue above certain heads in the police department (not to mention a rotting corpse), Einhorn might have remained "cleared."

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff
[*]The fact that MM won't allow the case to go any higher [/*]

I find it odd he would send Sheriiff Nau's case to the AG, but has balked at getting the AG to look at RG's case.

I think a missing DA of Centre County is a lot more important than trying to hang the Sheriff for cashing a check that Ferguson Township knew should have gone to CC Controller or accounting dept. That was more someone making an election smear on DN than a real case against him.

RG is missing but MM will not go to AG. Why is that?

[Tree_of_Life]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]


*snip*

PF was never asked to take a poly but took one only because she volunteered to for her own reasons, not for LE reasons. [/*]

Can you post your source for this UTR?

Originally posted by Tree_of_Life [*]

Can you post your source for this UTR? [/*]

I'll have to dig around and see if the article is still available and/or whether I've got it saved in notes. I'm sure others remember reading it. Zaccagni said that PF volunteered to take the poly, wanted to take one, because she'd been hearing "whispers" around town or something to that effect and wanted to "clear" her name. That's paraphrase, obviously, but the gist of what was said in the article.

This is the article I was referring to, Tree:

The lead investigator searching for missing Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar said yesterday that Gricar's girlfriend has requested a polygraph test to clear her name.

Officer Darrel Zaccagni confirmed that the department would work with either the U.S. Secret Service or Pennsylvania State Police to test Gricar's live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, who is not considered a suspect in the case.

"She heard some whispers and asked me when it will be done," he said. "As it looks closer to foul play ... let's get Patty clear of this situation. We want to do it to rule her out."

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...05dnews-01.asp

OTOH, JL has not once...NOT ONCE...been addressed by the media in connection with this case. And yet, days (or hours) after the PSP CIA unit concluded its "review", JL got arrested on old information. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

And LG was given the poly to clear her, right UTR?

Polygraphs are[*]not[/*] infallible, but they are very accurate, expecially when done by highly trained people. If we had a polygraph result that refuted the physical evidence, I would believe the evidence. We don't have that in this case.

In the case JL and family, apparently LE did create a time line excluding BLJ. The certainly have prints and DNA from both JL and BJL.

Lara was given a polygraph, according to press reports, to rule out any contact between RG and LG following the disappearance. LG was never a suspect according to press reports, which makes sense given the fact that she was 3,000 miles away at the time. The only way she could have been involved would have been to hire a hit man to carry out a kidnapping and murder in Pennsylvania, and I don't believe that theory has ever seriously been considered by anyone that I'm aware of.

Polygraphs are not accurate enough to be admissible in most courts of law, unlike Bloodhound evidence, which has been scientifically proven to have a much better accuracy rate (96%) than polygraph examinations. Dixon has reported that the LE trained and handled Bloodhound "picked up no trail" and "did not pick up on anything" according to various press reports. Scientific data collected by the FBI demonstrates how easy it is for someone not to leave DNA, fingerprints, hairs, and fibers behind, and LE collected evidence shows how infrequent it is to find fingerprints, period, at a scene and how much more infrequent it is to find fingerprints of a *perpetrator.* The odor of smoke and cigarette ashes in the Mini suggest the possibility of another person in the vehicle, and the various "witness reports" get little weight considering they were in response to details given, have no scent evidence to show how RG would have traveled from the parking lot to the SOS, and as yet have no explanation for where RG would have been between Friday afternoon and Saturday at noon time, leaving no scent evidence and no videotape, no receipts, and no witness reports from restaurants or motels, etc.

My carefully considered, researched, and documented opinion only, to which I am entitled.

[Tree_of_Life]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]Lara was given a polygraph, according to press reports, to rule out any contact between RG and LG following the disappearance. LG was never a suspect according to press reports, which makes sense given the fact that she was 3,000 miles away at the time. The only way she could have been involved would have been to hire a hit man to carry out a kidnapping and murder in Pennsylvania, and I don't believe that theory has ever seriously been considered by anyone that I'm aware of.

Polygraphs are not accurate enough to be admissible in most courts of law, unlike Bloodhound evidence, which has been scientifically proven to have a much better accuracy rate (96%) than polygraph examinations. Dixon has reported that the LE trained and handled Bloodhound "picked up no trail" and "did not pick up on anything" according to various press reports. Scientific data collected by the FBI demonstrates how easy it is for someone not to leave DNA, fingerprints, hairs, and fibers behind, and LE collected evidence shows how infrequent it is to find fingerprints, period, at a scene and how much more infrequent it is to find fingerprints of a *perpetrator.* The odor of smoke and cigarette ashes in the Mini suggest the possibility of another person in the vehicle, and the various "witness reports" get little weight considering they were in response to details given, have no scent evidence to show how RG would have traveled from the parking lot to the SOS, and as yet have no explanation for where RG would have been between Friday afternoon and Saturday at noon time, leaving no scent evidence and no videotape, no receipts, and no witness reports from restaurants or motels, etc.

My carefully considered, researched, and documented opinion only, to which I am entitled. [/*]

By the same token though, you must concede that there is no evidence that PF was at the SOS then either. Even less than there is that RG was there IMO. Except for the cigarette ash, there's no DNA evidence of her or anyone other than RG being in the Mini. No sightings of her at the SOS. No fingerprints. No evidence of the Mini being wiped down. What real evidence is there of her involvment other than the speculation of what some think her actions should have been that night?

Originally posted by Tree_of_Life [*]

By the same token though, you must concede that there is no evidence that PF was at the SOS then either. Even less than there is that RG was there IMO. Except for the cigarette ash, there's no DNA evidence of her or anyone other than RG being in the Mini. No sightings of her at the SOS. No fingerprints. No evidence of the Mini being wiped down. What real evidence is there of her involvment other than the speculation of what some think her actions should have been that night? [/*]

To my knowledge, the only readable prints in the Mini were RG's and the only DNA testing done was on the water bottle, which showed RG's DNA. Of course, there's nothing to indicate that was "Friday" water. And of course, we have no way of knowing what other DNA testing might have been done, but to my knowledge, no testing for PF's DNA was done in the Mini. Wouldn't have proven anything anyway, since one would expect to find PF's DNA in the Mini, same as her fingerprints, correct?

To my knowledge, no one went around Lewisburg showing pictures of PF and asking if anyone had seen a woman matching that description. And the likelihood in my mind, *if PF is involved* in the disappearance, would be that an accomplice was on scene in Lewisburg and not PF herself, perhaps someone matching the description of a "construction type" worker . . . .

JMO.

[Politigal]

I'm still curious about that "construction type" description.

What exactly was it that led the witness to think "construction?"

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherrijean981 [*]

I posted a link previously that said family and LE made RG and PF's home headquarters for a couple weeks. They were in and out all the time. They had meals there, watched the news there and talked together there. I think LE and even others probably had more than enough opportunity to look around, with PF's permission.

TG also said both PF and LG had many long hours of being polygraphed and interviewed. They found neither were invovled or had any knowledge of where he was.
JMO [/*]

It's true that Tony, Chris, Lara and probably others came to PF's home in the days after the disappearance.

But what about Thursday night - or Friday all day - or Friday night?

That's a large span of time for many things to have transpired.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]This is the article I was referring to, Tree:

The lead investigator searching for missing Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar said yesterday that Gricar's girlfriend has requested a polygraph test to clear her name.

Officer Darrel Zaccagni confirmed that the department would work with either the U.S. Secret Service or Pennsylvania State Police to test Gricar's live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, who is not considered a suspect in the case.

"She heard some whispers and asked me when it will be done," he said. "As it looks closer to foul play ... let's get Patty clear of this situation. We want to do it to rule her out."

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...05dnews-01.asp [/*]

I wonder who was doing the whispering? Neighbors or coworkers?

Do you think maybe PF heard JKA whispering?

Originally posted by Politigal [*]

I wonder who was doing the whispering? Neighbors or coworkers?

Do you think maybe PF heard JKA whispering?

[/*]

Considering that there was suspicion of "the girlfriend" on multiple boards around the web before a week had elapsed after the disappearance, I doubt it would have to be narrowed to whispers in the courthouse.

[Politigal]

"imagination" or promotion.....

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal [*]

It's true that Tony, Chris, Lara and probably others came to PF's home in the days after the disappearance.

But what about Thursday night - or Friday all day - or Friday night?

That's a large span of time for many things to have transpired. [/*]

First, it strains credibility to beyond the breaking point to suggest anyone other than RFG drove the car to Lewisburg. We are not talking about someone sitting in it for five minutes; we are talking about someone having to be in it for at least an hour, and have to operate it fully. We also don't have anyone coming forward and saying the car was in the lot prior to noon of 4/15/05.

After discussing this for a year and some posters trying every way to concoct a scenario where PEF or anyone other than RFG drove the car, we don't have any method for it happening. Any claim about other crimes fail to take into account the activities needed for driving, the closed in area of a car, and the length of time needed to drive it.

Second, specifically in regard to PEF, we know where she was from about 8:15 AM on 4/15 until she called LE. That covers Friday. Unless she was involved in a bloodless crime, there is no opportunity to either clean up or replace household items (and LE was looking for those signs).

Poll wouldn't accept my vote either, it is a resounding

NO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar [*]Lara was given a polygraph, according to press reports, to rule out any contact between RG and LG following the disappearance. LG was never a suspect according to press reports, which makes sense given the fact that she was 3,000 miles away at the time. The only way she could have been involved would have been to hire a hit man to carry out a kidnapping and murder in Pennsylvania, and I don't believe that theory has ever seriously been considered by anyone that I'm aware of.

Polygraphs are not accurate enough to be admissible in most courts of law, unlike Bloodhound evidence, which has been scientifically proven to have a much better accuracy rate (96%) than polygraph examinations. Dixon has reported that the LE trained and handled Bloodhound "picked up no trail" and "did not pick up on anything" according to various press reports. Scientific data collected by the FBI demonstrates how easy it is for someone not to leave DNA, fingerprints, hairs, and fibers behind, and LE collected evidence shows how infrequent it is to find fingerprints, period, at a scene and how much more infrequent it is to find fingerprints of a *perpetrator.* The odor of smoke and cigarette ashes in the Mini suggest the possibility of another person in the vehicle, and the various "witness reports" get little weight considering they were in response to details given, have no scent evidence to show how RG would have traveled from the parking lot to the SOS, and as yet have no explanation for where RG would have been between Friday afternoon and Saturday at noon time, leaving no scent evidence and no videotape, no receipts, and no witness reports from restaurants or motels, etc.

My carefully considered, researched, and documented opinion only, to which I am entitled. [/*]

My problem with the dog search: does anyone know if the dogs were taken to where the employee at the museum saw RG parking his car in front of the museum, get out of the car and then saw him sitting in the park reading something?? Didn't they only take the dogs to the banks of the river? If he was seen in the SOS why weren't the dogs taken IN ths SOS's and were they taken to the back doors or the back parking lot? Where his car could have been earlier or later in the day?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal [*]

I wonder who was doing the whispering? Neighbors or coworkers?

Do you think maybe PF heard JKA whispering?

[/*]

Maybe it was a little more than whispers? Could there have been harassing phone calls? Nasty comments on the street, in the stores, in the courthouse, in church? No one knows what PF was dealing with at the time to request the polygraph but IMO it had to have been a lot more than "whispers".