10/14 thru 11/11

[Jester]

How do we explain the fact that Amanda blurted out that Meredith slowly bled to death before cause of death was released?

How do we explain the fact that Amanda described a scene with one black man and herself at the cottage on the night of the murder? Forensic evidence confirming two unexplained footprints was not available until much later. How did Amanda know it was not a single assailant rape?

How could Amanda describe a scream (flashback or otherwise), and another woman from the neighbourhood describe a similar scream at about the same time, if it is not true?

There is nothing odd about police noticing guilty behaviors (see Psychology: behaviorism)? It's a combination of body language and verbal responses. Filomina's friends noticed the same guilty behaviors. So did Meredith's friends. Even Amanda's mom noticed that Amanda had guilty behavior and demanded to know why she would not remember their phone conversation.

[Emerald]

Amanda immediately knew Meredith died from loss of blood. Not stab wounds, blunt force, strangulation, etc.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Jester

Why has Rudy remained silent, in spite of the fact that he has been legitimately convicted of murder. Why would he protect Amanda? Amanda early on (too early) admitted knowledge of more than one assailant? Why doesn't Rudy spill the beans on whomever else was there and buy himself a deal? Deals aren't available in Italy?

Well, no they're not. Deals don't figure in the civil law system. Actually, they don't strictly speaking in common law either, they don't in the UK...deals are an American thing, a mechanism they've tacked on to their legal system.

The only thing 'close' to a deal Rudy could have made was his opting for a fast track trial. That automatically gives a discount to one accused of murder to 30 years instead of life. He was also acquitted of the robbery charge and as such 'should' have gotten a discount of a further 10 years reducing his sentence to 20 years. However, Judge Micheli ruled that he wouldn't get that discount since he wasn't being fully honest with the court by telling so many (Micheli judged) lies. So, he got 30 years. He may still get the 10 year discount in his appeal, we'll have to see. But that won't depend on whether he implicates Amanda and Raffaele or not.

The fast track trial process earns an automatic discount because the accused is saving the state a lot of time, money and resources by not requesting a full trial. Normally, the abbreviated rite is opted for by those intending to plead guilty, rarely if ever by those intending to plead innocent (for whom a full trial is a far better option, as they have more opportunity to argue their case). So, it's not really a deal as such, rather it's more akin to the similar situation in the common law system where when an accused pleads guilty, that is taken into account and rewarded in their sentence.

[Emerald]

If Amanda is found guilty, her sentence will be 30 years to life?

Is there early release for anything?

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Emerald

If Amanda is found guilty, her sentence will be 30 years to life?

Is there early release for anything?

If Amanda is found guilty of murder, it will be 'life', no 30 years about it. Rudy only got 30 years as a reward for opting for the abbreviated rite. Amanda and Raffaele have opted for the full first degree trial so the sentence will be life.

As for realy release...well, the way the Italian system works, around the point of 15 - 18 years served, they'll be allowed out on day release, which will be extended to releases of a number of weeks a year and will probably be fully released after serving 19 - 25 years.

Just to add, Mignini has also requested that if they are found guilty, they serve their first two years in solitary.

[Emerald]

Originally Posted by Michael

If Amanda is found guilty of murder, it will be 'life', no 30 years about it. Rudy only got 30 years as a reward for opting for the abbreviated rite. Amanda and Raffaele have opted for the full first degree trial so the sentence will be life.

As for realy release...well, the way the Italian system works, around the point of 15 - 18 years served, they'll be allowed out on day release, which will be extended to releases of a number of weeks a year and will probably be fully released after serving 19 - 25 years.

Just to add, Mignini has also requested that if they are found guilty, they serve their first two years in solitary.

Wow! Why?

In an interview, Edda Mellas stated the 2nd degree is where all the real evidence comes out. Now, I know she is just making excuses for the probable guilty verdict, but what happens in a 2nd degree trial? Is it any more intense than this one has been?

I have a lot of sympathy for Edda Mellas as a parent. But, there comes a time when it's necessary to admit your children are adults. Making choices for which they alone must be responsible.

JMO

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Emerald

Wow! Why?

In an interview, Edda Mellas stated the 2nd degree is where all the real evidence comes out. Now, I know she is just making excuses for the probable guilty verdict, but what happens in a 2nd degree trial? Is it any more intense than this one has been?

I have a lot of sympathy for Edda Mellas as a parent. But, there comes a time when it's necessary to admit your children are adults. Making choices for which they alone must be responsible.

JMO

Because of the viciousness and barbarity of the crime. And because the accused have been unco-operative, instead attempting to hinder the investigation.

As for Edda, she doesn't know what she's talking about. Either that, or she's trying to deceive the public. She would have the public think that pretty much everyone is convicted in the first degree, like some rule and the innocent then have to wait for the appeal to be found so. This is completely untrue. It's defence propaganda, no more then that.

It is also untrue that the 'real' evidence emerges in the appeal rather then the first degree. The exact opposite is the actual norm. I ask you, who in their right minds doesn't offer strong evidence of innocence they may have in their innitial trial and waits for the appeal to do so? That's just a nonsense. All the appeal process does is give the defence further time to hunt down new evidence and witnesses that may aid their case, which sometimes materialises and sometimes does not and likewise, is sometimes strong enough to change the verdict in the appeal and is sometimes not.

The appeal is generally less intense and shorter then the first degree, simply because most of the ground has already been covered. The purpose of the second degree is to simply review the evidence in the first degree and examine any new evidence that that has emerged since, whether it be from the defence, prosecution or victims' parties.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Michael

If Amanda is found guilty of murder, it will be 'life', no 30 years about it. Rudy only got 30 years as a reward for opting for the abbreviated rite. Amanda and Raffaele have opted for the full first degree trial so the sentence will be life.

As for realy release...well, the way the Italian system works, around the point of 15 - 18 years served, they'll be allowed out on day release, which will be extended to releases of a number of weeks a year and will probably be fully released after serving 19 - 25 years.

Just to add, Mignini has also requested that if they are found guilty, they serve their first two years in solitary.

If Amanda is in solitary confinement for 2 years, she'll be mentally ill at the end. I suspect that Raffaele has a more sound psychological foundation and will fare better.

[Jester]

I wonder if this is true

"The Ivory Coast immigrant convicted in the slaying of Meredith Kercher will tell a court that Seattle college student Amanda Knox was in the apartment that the night Kercher was killed, his lawyer has told seattlepi.com"

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/41161...ml?source=mypi

[Jester]

Some interesting video footage here ... even if it is in Italian

http://tg24.sky.it/tg24/cronaca/2009..._meredith.html

[Jester]

Short clip about the evidence (dateline)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...54799#28075850

[Jester]

Just reading Amanda's prison diary ... first 7 pages.

Amanda is writing about meeting with the priest ...

"I told him I was very happy, because I was able to give what I knew, finally, to the police". This is when she was first imprisoned after telling police that Patrick was a murderer and she implicated herself.

She was with a priest. There was no coercion. There was no coercion when she wrote this diary in prison.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...talymurder.pdf

[Emerald]

Thanks Jester.

I could not get the diary pdf file to open.

Amanda had more than enough time and opportunities to retract the accusation against Patrick. He wasn't crime scene, but obviously she was.

JMO

[Michael]

Emerald -

You asked me about the percentage of success for appeals in Italy. As per normal in this case, there's always a rather complicated answer to a simple question. Here's the answer I got from 'Yummi', who is an Italian and very knowledgable about the Italian system as well as this particular case:

Originally Posted by Yummi

I don't have an idea of statistics about appeals in Italy, but i don't think those stats would matter to this case. Appeals are usually very similar to first degree trials in their overall figure. Basically it depends on what are the aims and strategies of parties in the appeal. If the outcome in the first degree is obvious, most likely it will be obvious in the appeal. Many appeals in italy don't take place just to overturn the first degree - i.e. the fact that a defendant is guilty often is not questioned - often they are made just to introduce minor corrections to the first sentence.

But in other words, the complete opposite of the picture Edda Mellas was trying to paint.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Jester

If Amanda is in solitary confinement for 2 years, she'll be mentally ill at the end. I suspect that Raffaele has a more sound psychological foundation and will fare better.

Well, I very much doubt it's solitary in the same form as we understand it in our jails, where prisoners are put for punishment periods in a tiny cell where there's no furniture and sometimes not even a light. I think it just means they'd have their own cell (with all the furniture, probably even their TV, music centre and whatever), still be allowed to have their counselling, see their lawyers, have visitors etc, but will not be permitted to join in association periods with the other prisoners or have a cell mate.

There is a problem with overcrowding in Italian prisons, but aside from that in comparisson to the jails in the US or UK, they aren't that harsh.

[Emerald]

Thanks Michael.

I really got the impression Edda Mellas' statement had a tone of finality.

It reminded me of the parents pleading with the judge for a light sentence for their child who had committed a heinous crime. "He's such a good son. Please be lenient."

I do not believe in judicially mandated death penalty under ANY circumstances. Imprisonment for life is different.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Emerald

Thanks Michael.

I really got the impression Edda Mellas' statement had a tone of finality.

It reminded me of the parents pleading with the judge for a light sentence for their child who had committed a heinous crime. "He's such a good son. Please be lenient."

I do not believe in judicially mandated death penalty under ANY circumstances. Imprisonment for life is different.

Well, fortunately for the accused there is no death peanalty in Italy (or indeed any country in Europe).

Just to add something on the solitary issue. This of course is the request of the prosecution and the judges in the event of a guilty verdict may or may not accept the request, so that's not a done deal if a guilty verdict is returned. Even if the judges incorporate it in their sentence, it will also have to be approved by the appeals court, so it may not happen at all, or if it does, may be for a shorter duration then that requested by the prosecution.

[Emerald]

Amanda has the very real possibility of being found not guilty. I remember that from time to time.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Emerald

Amanda has the very real possibility of being found not guilty. I remember that from time to time.

Yes, of course. This is all just hyperthetical.

[Michael]

I think also I should qualify the situation as it presently stands.

To be completely honest, everyone is expecting a guilty verdict, even the FOA and lawyers representing the accused. As such, the accused have been warned to expect a guilty verdict and the FOA are already thinking about the appeal.

Some essential diferences between the civil law and common law systems need to be outlined.

In the civil law system, while we naturally think of the prosecutor in the same terms as a 'prosecutor' in our system, they are in fact under the Italian system regarded as 'judges'. So, in order for an Italian prosecutor to proceed against suspects, they have already gone through a process of being judged. But that isn't enough. A judge in the Italian system requires their judgement validating by a court and then, by another court and then by the High Court and after that, a pre-trial court. In other words, an Italian prosecutor has to jump through multiple legal hoops before they can even get a case to trial and must do so via 'evidence', not simply by saying 'I want to try these people'. In contrast, in the common law system, all that's required is for the police to charge a suspect and the prosecutor to then accept the case based solely on his/her informed opinion on their chances of winning it in court. The prosecutor in the common law system does not depend on the approval of any third party. The decision on what goes to trial lies with them and them alone and the arraignment is no more then an official rubber stamping of the 'prosecutor's' decison. It then goes to trial with the actual evidence having had scrutiny from nobody other then the police and prosecution. In the civil law system, a case is already many steps ahead of that by the time it gets to trial, since a large degree of the actual 'evidence' will have already been examined by multiple courts and deemed to be worthy to be moved onto the next step.

In short, in the common law system, in trial the accused are starting effectively from 'point zero'. In the civil law system, by the time they get to trial they've already been half way judged to be guilty. And this is all without the totallity of evidence produced against them in the actual trial itself. This is why the situation for the accused is looking so grave.

[Emerald]

In Italy, is the prison population divided by type of crime committed? Is it all general population like in the US?

For instance violent murderers/rapists housed with non-violent offenders.

Is Amanda housed now where she will be if found guilty?

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Emerald

In Italy, is the prison population divided by type of crime committed? Is it all general population like in the US?

For instance violent murderers/rapists housed with non-violent offenders.

Is Amanda housed now where she will be if found guilty?

Yes, it's general population. If she's found guilty, she'll probably be moved to another prison. That is of course, if she's not granted some form of release while she awaits her appeal.

[Emerald]

Sometimes prisoners are released through diplomatic channels to serve sentence in the US.

Would that ever happen in this case?

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Emerald

Sometimes prisoners are released through diplomatic channels to serve sentence in the US.

Would that ever happen in this case?

It's 'possible', But I wouldn't think likely, certainly not as things currently stand between the US and the Italian judiciary. The governments between the two countries get on great and indeed are allies, but in regard to the Italian judiciary things are very different. It must be understood that the Italian government and the Italian judiciary are seperated, with neither controlling the other and in fact, are often in conflict with each other. Italians are very proud of their judicial independence, something which Berlusconi has been triyng to reighn in, albeit for totally selfish reasons in order to evade prosecution himself (he's now failed in that bid). At the moment, the relationship between the Italian judiciary and the US is at its lowest ebb, due to the recent Italian conviction of multiple CIA agents in absentia for kidnapping in Italy (Extraordinary Rendition) and the refusal of the US administration to acknowledge it was a foul and hand over those convicted. Indeed, this has been going on for a few years now with the US refusing to hand them over to even stand trial, hence why it had to take place in absentia. Therefore, relations between the Italian judiciary and the US couldn't be worse (and also in part explains why the Italians were so reluctant to release Amanda while she awaited trial. They knew they'd never get her back if she was able to flee back to the States). None of this bodes well for any request by Amanda to serve her sentence in America.

Having said that though, it has an upside. The only benefit I can see for Amanda serving her sentence in the US is that it would make family visits easier. But, US prisons are hell holes. Given a choice between an Italian or an American prison, I know where I'd rather be.

[Michael]

Emerald -

You wanted some percentages on the success of appeals in Italy. One of my members on PMF has dug up the following:

Originally Posted by The 411

Playing around with Google today (instead of actually doing my job...), using certain Italian words, I found this info. about the appeal process in Italy.

Here's my Google-assisted and worked-over translation. Tiziano, Yummi, feel free to correct. I think I've got the gist...but I'm not certain about what NDP actually means.

Here's "the 411" about appeals in Italy according to this blogger:

"70% of appeal cases end with the confirmation of the original verdict. (25% of these with a confirmation of the sentence at the original trial, and 45% with a reduction in the penalty.)

The other 30% of appeals cases end with 10% of them lapsing due to expiration, 8% for (NDP??? no particular reason????) procedural reasons and only 12% overturning the verdict."
.................................................. .............................................
So, if these statistics are valid, it would mean that upon conviction, AK and RS stand a 88% chance of having their guilt verdict upheld on appeal.


ORIGINAL in ITALIAN
Il 70% dei processi in appello si concludono con la conferma della responsabilità ( di cui il 25% con conferma della sentenza di primo grado ed il 45% con riduzione della pena). L'altro 30% dei processi di appello finiscono con un 10% di prescrizioni, un 8% di ndp per motivi processuali e solo un 12 % con riforma nel merito.
FROM:
claudionunziata.blogspot.com

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Emerald

Sometimes prisoners are released through diplomatic channels to serve sentence in the US.

Would that ever happen in this case?

Here are a couple of links about prisoner transfer:

http://www.traslados.org/treaties/strasbourg-eng.htm

http://www.traslados.org/

From briefly skimming those links, it looks like the sentence could be changed if a prisoner is transferred from one country to another, although the expectation would be that a prisoner serve the same sentence as originally imposed. However, that appears to depend somewhat on the type of sentence applied in each country. If there were any chance that the sentence would be changed, the Kerchers may have an opportunity to voice an opinion ... and they could be worried that once Amanda is on US soil her sentence will be reduced. If the Kerchers objected to a transfer, it could also interfere with Italy agreeing to release Amanda to the US. It would be interesting to see how it plays out ... after a verdict, if and when all the appeals are complete. If Amanda is convicted, and if the Kerchers believe she is guilty, I would expect them to prefer that Amanda serve her sentence in Italy rather than take the risk that she will be released after a couple of years in the US.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Michael

I think also I should qualify the situation as it presently stands.

To be completely honest, everyone is expecting a guilty verdict, even the FOA and lawyers representing the accused. As such, the accused have been warned to expect a guilty verdict and the FOA are already thinking about the appeal.

Some essential diferences between the civil law and common law systems need to be outlined.

In the civil law system, while we naturally think of the prosecutor in the same terms as a 'prosecutor' in our system, they are in fact under the Italian system regarded as 'judges'. So, in order for an Italian prosecutor to proceed against suspects, they have already gone through a process of being judged. But that isn't enough. A judge in the Italian system requires their judgement validating by a court and then, by another court and then by the High Court and after that, a pre-trial court. In other words, an Italian prosecutor has to jump through multiple legal hoops before they can even get a case to trial and must do so via 'evidence', not simply by saying 'I want to try these people'. In contrast, in the common law system, all that's required is for the police to charge a suspect and the prosecutor to then accept the case based solely on his/her informed opinion on their chances of winning it in court. The prosecutor in the common law system does not depend on the approval of any third party. The decision on what goes to trial lies with them and them alone and the arraignment is no more then an official rubber stamping of the 'prosecutor's' decison. It then goes to trial with the actual evidence having had scrutiny from nobody other then the police and prosecution. In the civil law system, a case is already many steps ahead of that by the time it gets to trial, since a large degree of the actual 'evidence' will have already been examined by multiple courts and deemed to be worthy to be moved onto the next step.

In short, in the common law system, in trial the accused are starting effectively from 'point zero'. In the civil law system, by the time they get to trial they've already been half way judged to be guilty. And this is all without the totallity of evidence produced against them in the actual trial itself. This is why the situation for the accused is looking so grave.

Anyone that followed the Joran v.d.Sloot questioning became somewhat familiar with this same system. Several times Joran was detained for questioning, and several times he appeared before the judge where a decision was made as to whether there was enough evidence to further detain him. Each time a decision was made to further detain him, the length of detention was longer. In the end, the judge determined that the evidence was insufficient to bring charges, and Joran remains free. Essentially, it was determined that he was not guilty, although there was no trial.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Michael

Given a choice between an Italian or an American prison, I know where I'd rather be.

Funny you should say that. In her prison diary, Amanda wrote about the bowl of coffee with milk in the morning, food that she could prepare in her cell, and cakes. I remember reading that Joran v.d.Sloot also received many things that are part of European culture like coffee at 10, and tea at 3, after dinner coffee. It seems like European prisons continue with habits that are part of normal, or traditional, daily life, whereas US culture doesn't have that same daily structure, so prison life doesn't include those practices.

I suspect that a European prison would probably be kinder to Amanda, but it would be difficult for her to be isolated from her culture and family for 30+ years. As I've said before ... if I had a child in that situation, I would pack up and move to Italy. As a teacher, Amanda's mom is in a good position to find work in an International school where she can be closer to Amanda during this trial process. The younger children could attend an International school without cost if mom is teaching, and Chris could find something to do. There are International American schools all over Europe. The mom could take a leave from her current position for a limited amount of time without losing her current position. In a way, I'm surprised that Amanda's mom, or someone in the family, hasn't done more to have at least one family member close living close by. I know that different people are flying back and forth on donated funds ... but there are other options available to them.