Caylee 11-7-09

[Mel]

Originally Posted by kakax

That is what I remember too, Mel about the "bloated" stage. They said had she been in the bloated stage or exploded (sorry) there would have been much more fluid.

Very sad.

i know
typing it out & rereading what i posted sounded horrible

[kakax]

Originally Posted by impartial

Dr. Vass's report states the chemicals released show a 2 1/2 day decompensation.

Adipocere doesn't form until after 1 - 2 month decompensation, unless in a water situation, then it can be 3 weeks.

Conflicting reports ... So which one is correct. She's either 2 1/2 days of decomp., or later by the entemologists report.

imo

What we don't know is if that 2 1/2 days is cumulative or not. Was it 2 1/2 days from when she died or were the gases 2 1/2 days worth of decomposition.

I don't think we know for sure until experts tell us.

[onlykaty]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

8 to 10 feet away. I thought most here were up on the discovery documents? Tony stood right beside Casey, which was right at the back side of the car where that little gas cap is to pour gas in the car, you know at the back END. 8 to 10 feet away?

What I wonder is WHY Tony says several times he remembers screwing the caps back on the gas cans, I thought the gas cans were missing caps and had duct tape on them! How weird is that!

What are you trying to get at? Just lay it out.

[kakax]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

8 to 10 feet away. I thought most here were up on the discovery documents? Tony stood right beside Casey, which was right at the back side of the car where that little gas cap is to pour gas in the car, you know at the back END. 8 to 10 feet away?

What I wonder is WHY Tony says several times he remembers screwing the caps back on the gas cans, I thought the gas cans were missing caps and had duct tape on them! How weird is that!

Why would you accuse someone of not being up on the documents. You, last night, discussed things about the docs without reading. It's hard to remember everything in this case.

I don't recall there not being gas caps on all of the gas cans, just the metal one. I assume he told police he was screwing on gas caps because that is what he did.

[kakax]

Originally Posted by onlykaty

What are you trying to get at? Just lay it out.

Looks like to me she, for whatever reason, wants to cast doubt on Tone.

[need2no]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

Yes, empty, but were they empty when placed in garbage originally? You see the frame, but not inside the picture, the inside of the picture is where the most details can be found.

I see the inside of the picture just fine, TYVM. There was no food in any of the containers....can you prove otherwise?

[onlykaty]

Originally Posted by kakax

Looks like to me she, for whatever reason, wants to cast doubt on Tone.

Thats my take on it. If so, then come out with it, I'll discuss that. This beating the same dead horse with no further imput, is getting no where.

[Dtviewer3]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

8 to 10 feet away. I thought most here were up on the discovery documents? Tony stood right beside Casey, which was right at the back side of the car where that little gas cap is to pour gas in the car, you know at the back END. 8 to 10 feet away?

What I wonder is WHY Tony says several times he remembers screwing the caps back on the gas cans, I thought the gas cans were missing caps and had duct tape on them! How weird is that!

The duct tape was put on the cans to label them.

NOT in place of caps

[kakax]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

I said I had not read the latest documents. I did not say I had not read all the prior documents, as I have, and agree details can be sketchy.

I have since read a lot of the latest documents

I have heard of only two gas cans, Tony states he was screwing caps on the gas cans after Casey filled the tank, if he had placed TAPE back over them, surely that would have stood out to him. I only mention it because there is big talk over the duct tape used to cover gas cans, and wonder when the caps got lost?

I know that George said the cap on one can was gone. I think he had 3 gas cans, but I am not 100% sure. 2 were plastic and 1 was metal.

[Dtviewer3]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

I said I had not read the latest documents. I did not say I had not read all the prior documents, as I have, and agree details can be sketchy.

I have since read a lot of the latest documents

I have heard of only two gas cans, Tony states he was screwing caps on the gas cans after Casey filled the tank, if he had placed TAPE back over them, surely that would have stood out to him. I only mention it because there is big talk over the duct tape used to cover gas cans, and wonder when the caps got lost?

They didnt get lost.
George labled the cans so he knew which for the lawnmower and which for the weedeater.

[kakax]

Have a good night everyone! I'm up way too late LOL!

Was a fun discussion tonight!

[Jester]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

8 to 10 feet away. I thought most here were up on the discovery documents? Tony stood right beside Casey, which was right at the back side of the car where that little gas cap is to pour gas in the car, you know at the back END. 8 to 10 feet away?

What I wonder is WHY Tony says several times he remembers screwing the caps back on the gas cans, I thought the gas cans were missing caps and had duct tape on them! How weird is that!

During the day today, TonE has been moved from the passenger door, to the back seat door, to the back of the car. Are you now saying that he was at the back of the car, behind the location where Casey was pouring gas into the tank? If he was not between Casey and the back of the car, which we know he wasn't, then he was closer to the front of the car near the doors.

The duct tape was not replacing the caps.

Which discovery documents are you referring to?

[impartial]

Originally Posted by Dtviewer3

Apidocere can start forming within days depending on the humidity, and heat.

By the way, I wasnt suggesting that you didnt believe Caylee wasnt in the trunk.

Just trying to wrap my head around the theories of food causing the smell when there was no food, but there are multiple things pointing to decomp in the trunk.

(Not trying to argue with you either, this has been one of the best discussions on here in quite a while)

I didn't think you were trying to argue, I thought maybe I wasn't making myself clear.

We don't know what that stain in the car is. I surmise it isn't bodily fluids for several reasons ... no DNA, entemologist report that she hadn't yet purged, body farm's 2 1/2 day decomp. (if even human). The liquids in that stain could be from foods that turned to liquid (I have taken some pretty rank veggies/fruit that liquified and got lost in the back of the bin in the fridge).

Plants decompose, foods decompose. The smell could be from a decompensation event, just not necessarily a human decomp. event. Caylee was triple bagged, so it's easy to see why there wouldn't be DNA in the trunk. Once removed, if we are to believe George, Tony and the tow truck driver, there wasn't a smell in the trunk/car on the 24th, the 26th, or the 27th. Yet, the smell was horrid on the 16th of July. Why would it be from Caylee if not present on the 24th, 26th or 27th. Casey said the car smelled on the 25th. Can we rely on anything Casey says?

imo

[seeing_eye]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

I honestly believe that garbage consisting of what was found in Casey's trunk if when put in the garbage bag had not been empty at the time and later eaten by the flies that are destined by nature to consume, then yes I believe those seeping cans, packages of salami, frozen steak dinners, assorted cheeses with the obvious propensity to contain saturated fatty acids ( what grave wax is ) could produce a smell that could knock you out. I know, every time I open the lid on my nasty trash can outside , it almost knocks me out. I could use a new garbage can, but times are tough

Are you saying you think the grave wax formed from food?

[onlykaty]

Originally Posted by kakax

Have a good night everyone! I'm up way too late LOL!

Was a fun discussion tonight!

I'm out to, g'nite kakax, your input was great. Nite to all .

[Jester]

Sleep well ...

but still, people getting a whiff of a dead body while filling up a gas tank is not relevant, particularly given all the other evidence. So what if he was too stoned, hung over, or overwhelmed with the smell of gas to pay attention. Casey was paying attention and noticed the smell of death in her car two days earlier on June 25th.

[Mel]

i'm glad i stopped in to read
....i didn't know there were new documents...i'm off to read that report again, by the 'bug expert'

[kakax]

There has been great debate as to whether there was enough time to allow adipocere to develop, but the entomological report helps to set the record straight. Not only does the elevated heat of the trunk increase the possibility of adipocere development, but the moist dark environment does as well. Add to that the fact that corpses of toddlers and babies tend to develop adipocere much easier than those of adults, and the presence of “grave wax”, as it is called, is not unreasonable. There has been great debate as to whether there was enough time to allow adipocere to develop, but the entomological report helps to set the record straight. Not only does the elevated heat of the trunk increase the possibility of adipocere development, but the moist dark environment does as well. Add to that the fact that corpses of toddlers and babies tend to develop adipocere much easier than those of adults, and the presence of “grave wax”, as it is called, is not unreasonable.



http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=494


Here is Valhall's comments on the grave wax, just FYI. I'm out for good now.

[Dtviewer3]

Originally Posted by impartial

I didn't think you were trying to argue, I thought maybe I wasn't making myself clear.

We don't know what that stain in the car is. I surmise it isn't bodily fluids for several reasons ... no DNA, entemologist report that she hadn't yet purged, body farm's 2 1/2 day decomp. (if even human). The liquids in that stain could be from foods that turned to liquid (I have taken some pretty rank veggies/fruit that liquified and got lost in the back of the bin in the fridge).

Plants decompose, foods decompose. The smell could be from a decompensation event, just not necessarily a human decomp. event. Caylee was triple bagged, so it's easy to see why there wouldn't be DNA in the trunk. Once removed, if we are to believe George, Tony and the tow truck driver, there wasn't a smell in the trunk/car on the 24th, the 26th, or the 27th. Yet, the smell was horrid on the 16th of July. Why would it be from Caylee if not present on the 24th, 26th or 27th. Casey said the car smelled on the 25th. Can we rely on anything Casey says?

imo

I dont get what you are saying here.

George never said there wasnt a smell that day. He never got close to the car was his original testimony.
The tow truck driver said he wouldnt have been able to smell it if there was because of his cold.
Tony is the only one who says he didnt smell anything, and was close enough. Is he telling the truth? Who knows.

But no where do I see that there wasnt a smell there on those days.

I would say if casey was complaining about the smell on the 25th, and there WAS a smell when the car was next found, that would be a pretty convincing argument that something in the car smelled.

I agree that if there was NO DNA in the stain, then the stain isnt from body fluids. But I dont think the smell has to be coming from the stain. I assume every bit of the trunk area has the smell.

[Dtviewer3]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

This may help with understanding GRAVE WAX and FATTY ACID from FOOD , specifically butter and dairy products.

The dramatic terms being thrown around with out a SPEC of DNA is alarming. Finding a partial piece of a blow flies leg has been breaking news, as said earlier there must be some major de-comp going on at my house, yet I haven't smelled it. The COFFIN FLY though, that has to be the most dramatic YET! Coffin flies EAT organic matter, they swarm to decomposing organic matter, food ( organic matter decomposes) And so where are these latest document discovery to lead me?

I am really going to bed now maybe.

"The first necrophages observed on the body after death is the Calliphorid flies. The female green bottle fly (Lucilia cuprina in the United States) is generally the first to colonize the body; the second is the Hairy Maggot Blowfly, Chrysomya rufifacies.[6] Other fly families generally present during this stage are Sarcophagidae, Piophilidae, and Muscidae.[7]

Predators of both immature and adult flies are prevalent at the beginning stages of decomposition. These are important factors to consider when determining the insect colonization time.[7] Chrysomya rufifacies, the second fly to colonize, facultatively predates on fly larvae in its second and third larval instar. Saprinus pennsylvanicus, is a predaceous beetle in the United States that feeds on the early fly larvae"

[Dtviewer3]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

Did you comment on the wrong post? My link you commented to was describing GRAVE WAX.

I have a big issue with the flies though I am seriously out for the night now, be back tomorrow!

Night,REST WELL !

Your post talked about flies:
"The dramatic terms being thrown around with out a SPEC of DNA is alarming. Finding a partial piece of a blow flies leg has been breaking news, as said earlier there must be some major de-comp going on at my house, yet I haven't smelled it. The COFFIN FLY though, that has to be the most dramatic YET! Coffin flies EAT organic matter, they swarm to decomposing organic matter, food ( organic matter decomposes) And so where are these latest document discovery to lead me?"

Did you forget...or are you starting your games again.

[*MoonRider*]

Originally Posted by need2no

I've been to the Orange County jail site many times looking up various things. I just went there to see the regulations regarding mail, and they now have the INMATE HANDBOOK ONLINE. One of the things I read was it cost $5.00 for a sick call. or dental (sick) call visit, which is immediately deducted from your account.

Here is the Handbook if anyone would like to read it.http://www.orangecountyfl.net/NR/rdo...nglish0609.pdf

[no1what]

Originally Posted by denjet
Holy Moly ... I must have scrolled right past this in yesterday's docs ...
Posted on WESH blog:
from RSFlorida
That is not all they have, media is not yet reporting it but she also had poisonous liquid in the car, taken into evidence. It is item designated 241 among docs released yesterday. Testing reveals it contains pesticide ingredients and wood alcohol. So you have a toxic and deadly liquid taken from her car and another toxic deadly liquid found along with remains....let's see defense explain that away...the info starts on page #11481 and results of it are on page 11553

Thanks to RSFlorida

Originally Posted by cassidy

Wow we must have all missed tht. Explains why the took the insecticide cans from the garage huh?

So did she spray Caylee's body with insecticide to keep the bugs off of her and that's how it got in the trunk????

[desmom]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

I said I had not read the latest documents. I did not say I had not read all the prior documents, as I have, and agree details can be sketchy.

I have since read a lot of the latest documents

I have heard of only two gas cans, Tony states he was screwing caps on the gas cans after Casey filled the tank, if he had placed TAPE back over them, surely that would have stood out to him. I only mention it because there is big talk over the duct tape used to cover gas cans, and wonder when the caps got lost?

The duct tape was covering the vent hole on the gas can, not the hole used to pour out the gas.

pic #18 http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/19105250/detail.html

[klock777]

I'm confussed....

http://www.clickorlando.com/download...6/21540089.pdf

shows the request to lab for testing Q81 as being liquid from a Crystal Lite bottle found in car. Further in the docs, the lab says Q81 is clothing received from the medical examiners office.

Then later in docs it looks like it changes to Q241 being the liquid.

Anyone know what the liquid from the Crystal Lite bottle tested as?

[*MoonRider*]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

Decomposition fluids would have DNA. If the fluids from a decomposing body had seeped into the carpet as was alleged and suggested and was the cause of the stain in the trunk that was carpeted, then DNA should have been able to be extracted.

That was a big stain!

The contents in the trunk and listed items as having been empty?

That is not to say they were empty when they were in the garbage bags originally! They could easily have been HALF full and the bugs polished off that organic matter, as that is what they feed on.

No DNA of a dead body in trunk has been found. They have suggested through a new science that AIR samples suggest there was decomposition occurring in the trunk, but as we can conclude organic matter decomposes and what follows is different species of flies that feed on this organic matter. I want to see some DNA. DNA has been extracted from hard wood floors after a murder 20 years later, there should be ample DNA in the carpet stain if the stain was from a decomposing body.

Are you saying that a deceased Caylee was not in the trunk?

[Holden]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

And Casey under no pressure what so ever told her friend her car no longer smelled on the 27th. so on the 23rd Tony didn't notice a smell, on the 25th CASEY did, on the 27th Casey no longer smelled anything and on the 27th Amscott folks didn't either, then on the date the car got towed, again no one smelled the smell ,but in JULY when George picked up the car it stunk! Theres a lot of wiggle room there, or should I say reason for doubt.

casey SAID, casey NO LONGER SMELLED - are you trying to say here that casey tells the truth? From what we've seen of her, that would be pretty crazy. Come on - look at the simple facts here. Baby Caylee last seen with mom, mom goes partying for 31 days, something is rotting in her trunk, finally confesses she hasn't seen baby in 31 days. It doesn't take a scientist or a genius to figure what happened here. Again - something is rotting in her trunk, baby is missing. Oh, and ps, the tape on the gas can was to cover the vent hole.

[desmom]

Over 1,000 posts. I started a new daily thread

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/sh...d.php?t=360418

[no1what]

Originally Posted by giddyupalw

So do you think Casey was taking shots for that ....... ????

What kind of medicine or shot would help cure that?

[farrahrani]

Originally Posted by BlueMartini

Yes, empty, but were they empty when placed in garbage originally? You see the frame, but not inside the picture, the inside of the picture is where the most details can be found.

Are you saying that there was food in the bag, made the trunk smell, and that someone went into that stinking trunk and ate it?

[Dtviewer3]

new thread-11-8