Pope John Paul II self-flagellated to get closer to Jesus

[Cooper]

www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/27/pope.flagellate/?hpt=T2

"Pope John Paul II used to beat himself with a belt and sleep on a bare floor to bring himself closer to Christ, a book published Wednesday says."

www.examiner.com/x-34556-SF-Christianity--the-Media-Examiner~y2010m1d27-New-book-reveals-that-Pope-John-Paul-II-practices-selfmortification

[LisaM22]

www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/27/pope.flagellate/?hpt=T2

"Pope John Paul II used to beat himself with a belt and sleep on a bare floor to bring himself closer to Christ, a book published Wednesday says."

www.examiner.com/x-34556-SF-Christianity--the-Media-Examiner~y2010m1d27-New-book-reveals-that-Pope-John-Paul-II-practices-selfmortification


that is a little twisted, to each their own I suppose, at least he wasn't beating anyone else with his belt.....

[JennyM]

How does anyone know he did this? Was he telling people about it?

"So, what did you do last night, Pope?"

"Well, I hit myself with a belt a few times then slept naked on the floor."

I just don't know if I believe it.

[Cooper]

It has been a Catholic practice. Perhaps someone here who is Catholic can elaborate?

[Jay]

How does anyone know he did this? Was he telling people about it?

"So, what did you do last night, Pope?"

"Well, I hit myself with a belt a few times then slept naked on the floor."

I just don't know if I believe it.

I don't know if I can buy it either, but it may seem odd, the same people who would chastise it, would have no problem spanking a child and giving them welts or an having an abortion.

Criticism on this topic, not here though, has ranged from him being a false so called prophet of Christ, to a masochist and sadist.

Those who are relentless to destroy organized religion will not stop until they do.

IF, IF, he did it, it was to emulate the suffering of Jesus and no actual harm was done. This is one example to feel what he actually felt. I have seen, during Holy Week, some who carry a cross through the streets as Jesus did, just to come closer to him and understand his suffering. Sure, this may have hurt thier back a little, etc., but there is nothing sprititually wrong with it.

As always, there are always religious fanatics, such as the Preacher who died, oh say 5 or 6 years ago because he handled a poisonous snake because the Bible said ye shall take up serpents. I felt for the family he left behind.

[JennyM]

I don't know if I can buy it either, but it may seem odd, the same people who would chastise it, would have no problem spanking a child and giving them welts or an having an abortion.

Criticism on this topic, not here though, has ranged from him being a false so called prophet of Christ, to a masochist and sadist.

Those who are relentless to destroy organized religion will not stop until they do.

IF, IF, he did it, it was to emulate the suffering of Jesus and no actual harm was done. This is one example to feel what he actually felt. I have seen, during Holy Week, some who carry a cross through the streets as Jesus did, just to come closer to him and understand his suffering. Sure, this may have hurt thier back a little, etc., but there is nothing sprititually wrong with it.

As always, there are always religious fanatics, such as the Preacher who died, oh say 5 or 6 years ago because he handled a poisonous snake because the Bible said ye shall take up serpents. I felt for the family he left behind.

BBM

Who is trying to destroy organized religion? :confused:

[Jay]

BBM

Who is trying to destroy organized religion? :confused:

If the allegation is not true, then it is a conspiracy to dethrone the church.

[JennyM]

If the allegation is not true, then it is a conspiracy to dethrone the church.

You don't really think something like this could dethrone the church, do you?

If pedophile priests didn't take it down, this sure won't.

[Jay]

You don't really think something like this could dethrone the church, do you?

If pedophile priests didn't take it down, this sure won't.

No, it won't do such, the phraseology was just a constant reminder of the forces of evil acting upon the Earth to dicredit religion in any and all ways they can.

[JennyM]

No, it won't do such, the phraseology was just a constant reminder of the forces of evil acting upon the Earth to dicredit religion in any and all ways they can.

You said they won't stop until they bring it down. So you think they are stronger than God?

[Jay]

You said they won't stop until they bring it down. So you think they are stronger than God?

They will NEVER bring it down, they just won't stop trying.

No they are not stronger, evil is powerful, sure, but goodness will prevail.

[LisaM22]

They will NEVER bring it down, they just won't stop trying.

No they are not stronger, evil is powerful, sure, but goodness will prevail.

myths can only be believed or disbelieved when they are told and retold throughout the years - Scientology it one of our newest religions out there, I think it is interesting seeing a new religion come to life in our times - wonder in 5000 years how much that religion will have changed

[JennyM]

They will NEVER bring it down, they just won't stop trying.

No they are not stronger, evil is powerful, sure, but goodness will prevail.

I don't understand why you said, "Those who are relentless to destroy organized religion will not stop until they do."

[Jay]

I don't understand why you said, "Those who are relentless to destroy organized religion will not stop until they do."

It was an Oxymoron, they can NEVER accomplish it, HOWEVER, they will never stop trying, as thier goal is to do so until they expire.

[Cooper]

No, it won't do such, the phraseology was just a constant reminder of the forces of evil acting upon the Earth to dicredit religion in any and all ways they can.

Who are these "forces of evil" and how are "they acting upon the earth?"

Thank you, Jay, for taking the time to respond on this topic.

[Cooper]

You don't really think something like this could dethrone the church, do you?

If pedophile priests didn't take it down, this sure won't.

I suppose so.

[Cooper]

More.

www.smh.com.au/world/pope-john-paul-made-rod-for-his-own-back-20100129-n4ah.html

'Several times he would put himself through bodily penance,'' said a Polish nun, Tobiana Sobodka, who worked in the Pope's Vatican apartments and summer residence. ''You could hear the sound of the blows when he flagellated himself.'' Monsignor Slawomir Oder, the Vatican ''postulator'' in charge of John Paul II's canonisation process, confirmed that testimony this week, saying the Polish-born Pope would whip himself as a bishop in Krakow and continued after being elected pope in 1978.

[Cooper]

www.uscatholic.org/node/9170

"It also seems to me that to imitate in our own bodies the torture of Jesus is to miss the ponit of his Passion. Torture of any human being is a sin, and what the Roman soldiers did to Jesus was evil. God could not and did not will it, any more than God wills anyone's torture. By seeking pain, we imitate not Christ, but those who inflicted abuse against him."


Note the source.

[Cooper]

I find this practice strange and confusing but still hold this Pope in high regard.

[Keegan]

Many faiths have history they would prefer not to know about. Buddhists burn themselves. I would guess most organized religions from ancient times have histories of harming themselves for the glory.

LINK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,5045,0,0,1,0

[Jay]

Who are these "forces of evil" and how are "they acting upon the earth?"

Thank you, Jay, for taking the time to respond on this topic.

Athiests like renowned Madelyn Murray Ohair for one, she filed suit to have "In God we trust" removed from currency, she failed.


The DEVIL is the force of evil that instills those who praise his name, Satan Worshipers, Satanic cults.

Those who are reprobate have no conscience. I have not checked the latest FBI uniform crime reports, but at one time in this country there was over 20,000 homicides, and even at one time, Washington, D.C. itself was the murder capital of the country.

I am not saying every one was cold blooded murder as to spit in the face of Jesus, but the facts are there.

The Nedow pledge of allegiance case a few years back where he filed suit for his daughter to take those words out of the pledge, One nation under God, he was an athiest. NOW, I am not saying, at all, that a person who files a 1st AM challenge as such anywhere is athiest, but the two cases I cite, the people were.

[Patriot]

It just seems like an invalidation of Christ's very sacrifice for us to even entertain the thought of such a thing, let alone carry it through. It's like saying if someone can hurt themselves bad enough they'll eventually be GOOD enough for whatever it is they feel so bad about.

My belief as a Christian is that no one could possibly ever be "good" enough on their own, anyway. Without Christ we can beat ourselves to a bloody pulp and it's not going to mean diddley squat. I seriously doubt that God wants any of his children beating themselves up either physically OR mentally for any reason what-so-ever. If so, I'm willing to bet he'd have mentioned it along the way.

I agree with you that we can't "make" ourselves good enough on our own, Spyder, but this practice seems not much different to me than the fasting that God calls us to do so that we focus and rely solely on Him - that is suffering as well.

[JennyM]

I find this practice strange and confusing but still hold this Pope in high regard.

There's lots of info out there on the subject. I have to wonder if the Pope became addicted to the practice, the way people who cut themselves do.

http://faithfaq.com/pain.htm

"It is evident that self-inflicted pain has been frequently used within religious contexts and often with great value to the practitioner. Use of religious pain has been demonstrated to have a variety of motivations, from the religious explanation to that of the psychologist. Neither science nor religion can tell whether self-inflicted pain is something simple, like neurosis or endorphin addiction or a complex and intricate mechanism for altering one’s consciousness or even making a connection with a greater reality. While there are few answers and many questions remaining, this information brings up many valid points and provides for a future of interesting exploration into the psychology of religion."

[LisaM22]

There's lots of info out there on the subject. I have to wonder if the Pope became addicted to the practice, the way people who cut themselves do.

http://faithfaq.com/pain.htm

"It is evident that self-inflicted pain has been frequently used within religious contexts and often with great value to the practitioner. Use of religious pain has been demonstrated to have a variety of motivations, from the religious explanation to that of the psychologist. Neither science nor religion can tell whether self-inflicted pain is something simple, like neurosis or endorphin addiction or a complex and intricate mechanism for altering one’s consciousness or even making a connection with a greater reality. While there are few answers and many questions remaining, this information brings up many valid points and provides for a future of interesting exploration into the psychology of religion."

people that self-flagellate themselves are not the kinda folks I would trust around my children - jmho

[JennyM]

people that self-flagellate themselves are not the kinda folks I would trust around my children - jmho

I don't know that it's tied to sexual abuse of children. I haven't found anything that says it is.

Another good article about self-flagellation.

http://www.slate.com/id/2242715/

[Cooper]

people that self-flagellate themselves are not the kinda folks I would trust around my children - jmho

Why? There is no link to child abuse.

[Cooper]

I agree with you that we can't "make" ourselves good enough on our own, Spyder, but this practice seems not much different to me than the fasting that God calls us to do so that we focus and rely solely on Him - that is suffering as well.


I understand you're point, Patriot, but I really see a difference between fasting and beating.

[Cooper]

Athiests like renowned Madelyn Murray Ohair for one, she filed suit to have "In God we trust" removed from currency, she failed.


The DEVIL is the force of evil that instills those who praise his name, Satan Worshipers, Satanic cults.

Those who are reprobate have no conscience. I have not checked the latest FBI uniform crime reports, but at one time in this country there was over 20,000 homicides, and even at one time, Washington, D.C. itself was the murder capital of the country.

I am not saying every one was cold blooded murder as to spit in the face of Jesus, but the facts are there.

The Nedow pledge of allegiance case a few years back where he filed suit for his daughter to take those words out of the pledge, One nation under God, he was an athiest. NOW, I am not saying, at all, that a person who files a 1st AM challenge as such anywhere is athiest, but the two cases I cite, the people were.

I am not a Christian. Would you consider me a "force of evil?"

[Jay]

I am not a Christian. Would you consider me a "force of evil?"

Huh!

You can be a NON christian and still not be a murderer or satan worshiper or a member of the KKK, etc.

Are you prejudice? If you are, you have a great potential to be evil.

Men who sexually harass women on the job just to show how much power they have are evil.

There are different degrees of vileness and wickedness.

[crocdog1]

I am not a Christian. Would you consider me a "force of evil?"

Heck. There are Christians who consider all Christians who do not agree with their faith based social/political values, convictions and beliefs to be a "force of evil."

One, that comes to mind, is a high profile, very recognizable Republican. I can provide a LINK if one is needed.

[JennyM]

Heck. There are Christians who consider all Christians who do not agree with their fundamentalist Dogma to be a "force of evil."

One, that comes to mind, is a high profile, very recognizable Republican. I can provide LINK if one is needed.

Christians who think other Christians are evil. Now there's a book waiting to be written. :biggrin:

[LisaM22]

Athiests like renowned Madelyn Murray Ohair for one, she filed suit to have "In God we trust" removed from currency, she failed.<snip>

first of all, many Christians do not believe in the money god either, so supporting "In God we trust" on our money would be a sin as it is against the first two Commandments of many Christians beliefs - jmho

[LisaM22]

Why? There is no link to child abuse.

not so sure about that, if they are abusing themselves in such away, no telling if they were or would abuse others too.. where did they learn to self-flagellate themselves, was it as a child from an adult they trusted?

[LisaM22]

It just seems like an invalidation of Christ's very sacrifice for us to even entertain the thought of such a thing, let alone carry it through. It's like saying if someone can hurt themselves bad enough they'll eventually be GOOD enough for whatever it is they feel so bad about.

My belief as a Christian is that no one could possibly ever be "good" enough on their own, anyway. Without Christ we can beat ourselves to a bloody pulp and it's not going to mean diddley squat. I seriously doubt that God wants any of his children beating themselves up either physically OR mentally for any reason what-so-ever. If so, I'm willing to bet he'd have mentioned it along the way.

I agree with you Spyder88, if there was a god, he surely would not want people to self-flagellate themselves

[JennyM]

not so sure about that, if they are abusing themselves in such away, no telling if they were or would abuse others too.. where did they learn to self-flagellate themselves, was it as a child from an adult they trusted?

You need to read the links I've provided to understand why they do it. Self-flagellation has been practiced for years by people of all different religions. No one had to teach the Pope how to do it - it's a well-known occurrence.

[JennyM]

I agree with you Spyder88, if there was a god, he surely would not want people to self-flagellate themselves

Read this

http://www.opusdei.org/art.php?w=32&p=9316

and here's a good discussion of the practice:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=89182

[Jay]

Interesting read, but I still think self-flagellation is bizarre and unnecessary to get closer to God. I believe that through Christ, we are as close as we will ever get. To me, if someone feels a "need" to be closer to God by beating themselves, then why bother saying they believe in what Jesus did for them on that cross? His death, after all, did it all. :shrug: JMVHO We are saved not by works or self-flagellating, but by grace. There's simply nothing we can do to alter or change that fact.

I still think if God wanted his children beating themselves up for him, he'd have made it abundantly clear in no uncertain terms.

It may be somewhat strange, yes, but acts of contrition or penance are not universal, as many have thier own way of expressing sorrow for sins. It can reach a point of blatant stupidity, it depends. Just because it is His Holiness, does not mean he is always 100 spiritually right.

We don't know if it is true, for one, and even if it is, judgment is not passed, as we are not Christ himself.

[Jay]

I agree with you Spyder88, if there was a god, he surely would not want people to self-flagellate themselves

Funny, in another religious thread, I commented about how you did not believe in God from all of your past posts about religion and you came back and asked me how "How do you know I do not"!!

[ninetoes]

I think its none of my business. Its between the Pope and God, as far as Im concerned.

[JennyM]

Interesting read, but I still think self-flagellation is bizarre and unnecessary to get closer to God. I believe that through Christ, we are as close as we will ever get. To me, if someone feels a "need" to be closer to God by beating themselves, then why bother saying they believe in what Jesus did for them on that cross? His death, after all, did it all. :shrug: JMVHO We are saved not by works or self-flagellating, but by grace. There's simply nothing we can do to alter or change that fact.

I still think if God wanted his children beating themselves up for him, he'd have made it abundantly clear in no uncertain terms.

What does and does not save a person is debatable obviously.

The body responds to pain by releasing certain chemicals. Like the one link suggested, perhaps that can make one have an experience that makes them feel closer to God.

Jesus himself went off to the desert to fast for 40 days. I can see why they want to follow in His example.

[Cooper]

Huh!

You can be a NON christian and still not be a murderer or satan worshiper or a member of the KKK, etc.

Are you prejudice? If you are, you have a great potential to be evil.

Men who sexually harass women on the job just to show how much power they have are evil.

There are different degrees of vileness and wickedness.


There most certainly are. Would you view men who sexually harass women as a force trying to bring the church down?

[Cooper]

Heck. There are Christians who consider all Christians who do not agree with their faith based social/political values, convictions and beliefs to be a "force of evil."

One, that comes to mind, is a high profile, very recognizable Republican. I can provide a LINK if one is needed.

Lol, Croc. Link not necessary.

[Cooper]

Christians who think other Christians are evil. Now there's a book waiting to be written. :biggrin:

When are you going to get started?
:laugh:

[Cooper]

not so sure about that, if they are abusing themselves in such away, no telling if they were or would abuse others too.. where did they learn to self-flagellate themselves, was it as a child from an adult they trusted?



I very much disagree. I would have no qualms, none whatsoever, of having my children in his presence..alone (when he was alive.)

[Jay]

There most certainly are. Would you view men who sexually harass women as a force trying to bring the church down?

Any evil act can INdirectly affect the church, evil influences are, at times, as powerful as religious ones. It does not have to directly be an act, say, of bombing a church or starting a Satanic worship house.

Evil in various degrees, as I stated, is against the teachings of Christ, therefore they affect man's relationship to him, and can, and does, spread.

As he told Peter, he was the Rock upon which he would build his church.

[LisaM22]

Funny, in another religious thread, I commented about how you did not believe in God from all of your past posts about religion and you came back and asked me how "How do you know I do not"!!

I do not believe in a jealous vengeful god as described in the bible, I have met men like that, and I do not think a god would be like that

with time I think people will switch from believing in a bible to believing in a god, as god is everything...

[LisaM22]

I very much disagree. I would have no qualms, none whatsoever, of having my children in his presence..alone (when he was alive.)

I would not be able to leave my children with someone that I knew was self-flagellate themselves - that is just me

[Cooper]

Any evil act can INdirectly affect the church, evil influences are, at times, as powerful as religious ones. It does not have to directly be an act, say, of bombing a church or starting a Satanic worship house.

Evil in various degrees, as I stated, is against the teachings of Christ, therefore they affect man's relationship to him, and can, and does, spread.

As he told Peter, he was the Rock upon which he would build his church.


Yes, but I have no relationship with Christ or the church (as millions of others.)

Do you feel that evil effects the church/Christians or does it have an effect globally on everyone despite their religious beliefs or lack thereof?

[Cooper]

I would not be able to leave my children with someone that I knew was self-flagellate themselves - that is just me


Ok, I understand your opinion but there is no direct linkage to abusing children.

[LisaM22]

I think its none of my business. Its between the Pope and God, as far as Im concerned.

I agree, as long as the fetishes one has does not make one a danger to themselves or others - if the man wants to self-flagellate to get closer to another man, so be it

[LisaM22]

Ok, I understand your opinion but there is no direct linkage to abusing children.

we all saw the child abuse hidden within our churches? I do not know if anyone can say there is any direct link to those who self-flagellate or not, I say if a pope wants to self-flagellate he should do it in private and keep it to himself - jmho

[Keegan]

we all saw the child abuse hidden within our churches? I do not know if anyone can say there is any direct link to those who self-flagellate or not, I say if a pope wants to self-flagellate he should do it in private and keep it to himself - jmho

Lisa, think about it. If someone you loved was self flagellating wouldn't you know they needed help? What was wrong with the people surrounding him? If he was cutting would that be acceptable? Honestly it makes no sense. The man was mentally ill and no one helped him. I find it sad. Isn't there enough suffering in this world? I don't see where any god has taken it. Look in the children's hospital, our senior citizens, the poor, wars, old age. We sure don't need to add to it. Kick off the red slippers and gold robes and be about helping to alleviate suffering.

[Cooper]

[QUOTE=Keegan;13855077 If someone you loved was self flagellating wouldn't you know they needed help? What was wrong with the people surrounding him? If he was cutting would that be acceptable? Honestly it makes no sense. [/QUOTE]

As a psychiatric social worker, I would not be able to compare "cutters" to one who self flagellates for religious purposes.

I agree it is a very strange practice and time would be better spent alleviating others suffering rather than cause unnecessary suffering to oneself.

However, I am not Catholic, but have been aware that the Catholic church "values" suffering as bringing one closer to Christ.

[Cooper]

I agree, as long as the fetishes one has does not make one a danger to themselves or others - if the man wants to self-flagellate to get closer to another man, so be it

There is no evidence that the self flagellation was used by the Pope as sexual stimulation.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8375174.stm

[Keegan]

Cooper,

Have you read any books about the saint Therese? She was a nun in France that spoke against this practice in the 19th century. Her writings are beautiful. I suggest to any that want to understand the modern Catholic view read some of her writings.

Do not confuse her with the saint Teresa. The nun from India that had the means (from donations) and willingly withheld pain medications. She felt suffering was a gift from her god and liked to share in it by passively watching. Before you ask, a link

http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/44061/13349419/quot;The_Missionary_Position:_Mother_Teresa_in_The ory_and_Practicequot;

I am sure had donors realized the money was not used to eradicate suffering donations would have fallen.


I do not know any medical professional that would think self flagellation was just a religious practice and give their approval. Think about finding one you love beating himself with a whip. Without a doubt it is a mental disorder. Even Catholics condemn the practice and have since the 13th century.

[Cooper]

Cooper,

Have you read any books about the saint Therese? She was a nun in France that spoke against this practice in the 19th century. Her writings are beautiful. I suggest to any that want to understand the modern Catholic view read some of her writings.

Do not confuse her with the saint Teresa. The nun from India that had the means (from donations) and willingly withheld pain medications. She felt suffering was a gift from her god and liked to share in it by passively watching. Before you ask, a link

http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/44061/13349419/quot;The_Missionary_Position:_Mother_Teresa_in_The ory_and_Practicequot;

I am sure had donors realized the money was not used to eradicate suffering donations would have fallen.


I do not know any medical professional that would think self flagellation was just a religious practice and give their approval. Think about finding one you love beating himself with a whip. Without a doubt it is a mental disorder. Even Catholics condemn the practice and have since the 13th century.


Wise post, Keegan.

I agree with what you say. However, if an elderly Pope was taught that this method would bring him closer to Jesus, to share his suffering, I would view it in a different light than a teenager who cuts.

I will check out your links. I like Belief Net. I use the same name there.

Thank you.

[LisaM22]

There is no evidence that the self flagellation was used by the Pope as sexual stimulation.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8375174.stm

fetishes, are not only sexual, though they can be

[LisaM22]

Wise post, Keegan.

I agree with what you say. However, if an elderly Pope was taught that this method would bring him closer to Jesus, to share his suffering, I would view it in a different light than a teenager who cuts.

I will check out your links. I like Belief Net. I use the same name there.

Thank you.

and that cooper is why him being around children would be bad, he could pass on this line of thinking, that this method would bring them closer to Jesus - it is obvious he did not keep this a private secret or we would not even be discussing it

[Cooper]

They are similar in that both release endorphins into the blood stream and and as a result can become an addiction.


I was not referring to biology but rather intention.

[Cooper]

and that cooper is why him being around children would be bad, he could pass on this line of thinking, that this method would bring them closer to Jesus - it is obvious he did not keep this a private secret or we would not even be discussing it


Lisa,

Aside from self flagellation , it is my understanding that Catholic belief views suffering as bringing one closer to Jesus. This is neither private nor secret.

I cannot see myself avoiding all Catholics because of this.

[Cooper]

fetishes, are not only sexual, though they can be


Due to my occupation, my first thought was of the DSM IV.

[LisaM22]

Lisa,

Aside from self flagellation , it is my understanding that Catholic belief views suffering as bringing one closer to Jesus. This is neither private nor secret.

I cannot see myself avoiding all Catholics because of this.

nothing wrong with that, but we can hardly ignore the self flagellation, it's the self mutilation that is the issue here, sure real suffering makes people turn to their beliefs for guidance, but self mutilations is something different altogether imo