Survivalism Lite

[daniel green]

They call themselves 'preppers.' They are regular people with homes and families. But like the survivalists that came before them, they're preparing for the worst.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/228428

[theal3]

Interesting read. I live rural so am always stocked up, so to speak. We often lose electricity, about 4 times a year in winter - and means no water, heat, so we still keep a rain barrel. Just cause I'm frugal I have of dried beans, pasta type stuff on hand. IMO urban areas would have it the toughest for food supplies if something should happen.

Guess it doesn't hurt to be prepared. Like a Girl Scout, LOL.

[withay]

We had quite a few folks in the north Georgia Mountains when they thought Y2K was going to cause everything to crash. One of my friend's husband was just bonkers then. He bought up nonperishable food and took all of their cash out of the bank. And was warning everyone how the modern computer run world was going to fall apart. Then when NOTHING happened, he never mentioned any of it again!:w00t:

[daniel green]

Withay--but this sounds a bit more disturbed than the YK2 (Y2K?) nutty rumblings. :scared:

[ShooFly]

If there was ever a nuke war, there isn't enough food and other equipment to survive anything. It's the equivalent of hiding under your desk when a bomb goes off. Nutz. imo

[R~O~S]

Withay--but this sounds a bit more disturbed than the YK2 (Y2K?) nutty rumblings. :scared:


I honestly don't think some of it is all that nutty. I guess I'd be considered a prepper, even though I've never heard the term. I was a boy scout leader for many years, we live in the NE.

Last year we had thousands without lights, heat or water for over two weeks because of an ice storm. The stores were all closed and the roads were shut down because of downed limbs. Most finally got their electricity back on Christmas Eve. For some it went on even longer.

Lots of folks were in big trouble because they don't have what they need to survive longer than a day or two in the house. It was the kindness of neighbors that saw them through & it's the kind of thing that renews my faith in mankind. We're all in this together, for better or worst.

I don't expect the world to end in my lifetime. I don't expect modern society to fall. But if it did me and mine have the skills needed to survive. I worry about what we don't teach our children anymore, because survival skills aren't seen as needed where as keyboarding skills are considered vital.

I'm ever so glad Daddy raised me to believe hamburgers grow up out of the ground wrapped in cellophane, but if I ever needed to, I'd be able to feed my family & teach others how it's done.

I guess what I'm saying is this: What I'm prepped for is the natural disaster that may leave us waiting a long time for help. But survival skills are survival skills, in the event of something unforeseen, they're portable skills.

& this is the kind of thing that can be taught in the fun family outings that bring families together as a unit, it doesn't need nor should it be a doom and gloom type of teaching. We always called it camping. lol


ETA: Speedy recovery wishes to you Daniel! It's good to see you & know you're home.

[Mimi428]

Withay--but this sounds a bit more disturbed than the YK2 (Y2K?) nutty rumblings. :scared:

That was a great article DG, thanks for posting the link.

I have a B-I-L who is more prepared for a catastrophic event than just about anyone else I know - by a long shot. I think there is probably enough shelf stable food in his house to feed a small army. He's been that way for way more than the 20+ years I have known him.

I think it's a good thing for people to take a lesson from natural catastrophe' events & get better prepared for storms & the typical stuff that we can all expect - the things that are likely to knock out electricity or keep you confined to home for more than a day or two. It shouldn't have to be a calamity for the average person in reasonable health to fend for themselves w/o electricity for 48 hours.

I don't understand the ones who are convinced that some huge catastrophic event will take place & will result in the complete - or near-complete breakdown of civil infrastructure, though. The Y2K folks who were ready to believe that planes would fall out of the air, all computers would stop, regular government would completely collapse, everything would just come to a standstill & we would all be on our own & need to hunt our own food, build our own little huts & tents, fight off bands of roving marauders, etc. Some of those people are downright scary.

[syringa]

I don't think it hurts anyone to be prepared for whatever may happen. If society did breakdown etc, I would rather be on the side of those who prepared, than a "roof sitter" waiting for someone else - especially the government to come save me.

Just having supplies stockpiled and saved up could help a family get through months of unemployment if nothing else. If anyone is interested, the Mormons have preached this idea of having supplies for years.

[R~O~S]

That was a great article DG, thanks for posting the link.

I have a B-I-L who is more prepared for a catastrophic event than just about anyone else I know - by a long shot. I think there is probably enough shelf stable food in his house to feed a small army. He's been that way for way more than the 20+ years I have known him.

I think it's a good thing for people to take a lesson from natural catastrophe' events & get better prepared for storms & the typical stuff that we can all expect - the things that are likely to knock out electricity or keep you confined to home for more than a day or two. It shouldn't have to be a calamity for the average person in reasonable health to fend for themselves w/o electricity for 48 hours.

I don't understand the ones who are convinced that some huge catastrophic event will take place & will result in the complete - or near-complete breakdown of civil infrastructure, though. The Y2K folks who were ready to believe that planes would fall out of the air, all computers would stop, regular government would completely collapse, everything would just come to a standstill & we would all be on our own & need to hunt our own food, build our own little huts & tents, fight off bands of roving marauders, etc. Some of those people are downright scary.

BBM

I don't believe it's likely, but I am concerned about the fragile state of our power grid. It's got nothing to do with any kind of catastrophic event, but the age and neglect of the grid itself.

It's happened on the small scale, power outages that impact multiple states all at the same time & it's not all that unlikely. A simultaneous failure at two junctions is enough to cause it. It's not so much of a concern in the warmer states (except for the elderly), but in the cold weather states being without power for days on end at the wrong time of year can be life threatening if you're not prepared.

People need to know how to drain their own water pipes so they won't freeze and burst resulting in huge financial loss if nothing else. Even a generator needs fuel, it won't hold out forever. Basics like knowing how to build a fire are handy little factoids. Any one of us could find ourselves lost and needing to keep ourselves safe & alive for a bit of time.

There was a story this week about an older couple who relied on their GPS to get somewhere, they ended up stranded for three days on an isolated road stuck in snow drifts. They were prepared, they had food and warm clothing with them. When the rangers found them they needed a winch to pull their four wheel drive vehicle out of the snow. These folks could not have walked out of where they were. GPS will give you the shortest route, not necessarily the safest route.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/automotive/22072904/detail.html


ETA: I have gear in the trunk of my car year round. I don't think about it, it's just there. I needed to use it two or three years ago, they let everyone out of work at the same time during a snow storm before any trucks were on the road to clear the streets. I parked the car and walked home. Took the rest of the family over 5 hours to drive. I walked the five miles, shoveled the house out & was warm and prepared for them when they got in. They were thrilled they didn't have to shovel, a warm dinner was on the table & I found out it's a heck of a lot easier to shovel if your car isn't in the way when you're trying to get it done. (That was the year they forced a cell phone on me, man they were ticked I was out there walking & they didn't know it. You'd think I was fragile or somethin! lol)

[Hooterville]

The Mormons have been stockpiling food for years. It's one of the duties of being Mormon. Stockpile food.

[Mimi428]

I was a boy scout leader for many years, we live in the NE.

& this is the kind of thing that can be taught in the fun family outings that bring families together as a unit, it doesn't need nor should it be a doom and gloom type of teaching. We always called it camping. lol


<bandwidth snip only>

Yes! Camping & scouting & bears - oh my! LOL

It is so rare for us to get icy, snowy weather around here - but a bit over 10 years ago we got ice, then snow & the havoc it created with falling trees limbs & entire trees was widespread. I think I was out of electricity for 3-4 days total, but other areas were out for weeks.

We have already had two separate storms that brought us just a teensy bit of snow & sleet - didn't last long, didn't give us any problems, but now the old jarheaded, Eagle scout of the 60's is about half convinced that before this winter season is over we will have a bad storm or two that will be more problematic. I think my stepson is ready, waiting & willing for it - but he's 19 years old, so that kind of thing would be his idea of fun.

We've had several 'prep' discussions, inventoried all the extra candles, oil lamps, mirrors, batteries, food & so on. I think there may be just a wee bit of disappointment from the S-son, if nothing happens this winter season. Not sure about his dad, but they have had some funny conversations about different ways to cope, cook, keep warm, etc.

[R~O~S]

<bandwidth snip only>

Yes! Camping & scouting & bears - oh my! LOL

It is so rare for us to get icy, snowy weather around here - but a bit over 10 years ago we got ice, then snow & the havoc it created with falling trees limbs & entire trees was widespread. I think I was out of electricity for 3-4 days total, but other areas were out for weeks.

We have already had two separate storms that brought us just a teensy bit of snow & sleet - didn't last long, didn't give us any problems, but now the old jarheaded, Eagle scout of the 60's is about half convinced that before this winter season is over we will have a bad storm or two that will be more problematic. I think my stepson is ready, waiting & willing for it - but he's 19 years old, so that kind of thing would be his idea of fun.

We've had several 'prep' discussions, inventoried all the extra candles, oil lamps, mirrors, batteries, food & so on. I think there may be just a wee bit of disappointment from the S-son, if nothing happens this winter season. Not sure about his dad, but they have had some funny conversations about different ways to cope, cook, keep warm, etc.


Yes!! That's exactly what I'm talking about. I think we're far more likely to see such an event because of geography, but there's just nothing wrong with doing/knowing the basics, is there?

My boys still enjoy the camping & fishing. My idea of roughing it these days is a black and white TV. But I could still do it, if need be. We've done deep woods winter camping (high adventure camping for older scouts). Any one of us could build a shelter and survive for a really long time, if we had to do it. None of us hope for it, none of us want it, but we could.

The DH & I just roll our eyes every year when they start predicting the first real winter storm and everybody wipes out the grocery store shelves. It's happened every year since the blizzard of '78. The groceries are a mad house, no sane person would go there.

What in the world were they waiting for? This is New England, winter happens just about the same time every year. lol

[Mimi428]

Yes!! That's exactly what I'm talking about. I think we're far more likely to see such an event because of geography, but there's just nothing wrong with doing/knowing the basics, is there?

My boys still enjoy the camping & fishing. My idea of roughing it these days is a black and white TV. But I could still do it, if need be. We've done deep woods winter camping (high adventure camping for older scouts). Any one of us could build a shelter and survive for a really long time, if we had to do it. None of us hope for it, none of us want it, but we could.

The DH & I just roll our eyes every year when they start predicting the first real winter storm and everybody wipes out the grocery store shelves. It's happened every year since the blizzard of '78. The groceries are a mad house, no sane person would go there.

What in the world were they waiting for? This is New England, winter happens just about the same time every year. lol

I have been in central TX since I was 10 years old, so my days of living through real winters are lonnnnng gone. My worst nightmare would be living w/o AC in August - which happened about 15 years ago after a bad storm & was utterly miserable.

S/O grew up in CT so his scouting stuff was done in your area - he regales S-son with tales of deep winter camping someplace in NH, where the snow was piled higher than high, deeper than deep - temps were arctic, wind chill was antartic....the whole shebang. LOL

When we had the first forecast for possible freezing rain/snow this year - they made a trip to get vehicles filled up w/gas & remarked about how even the convenience store was flat out of stuff that you would think folks would have previously bought at Walmart at a reasonable price instead of at the outrageous prices there for batteries, candles, that sort of thing. But noooooo.

[daniel green]

snipped

I guess what I'm saying is this: What I'm prepped for is the natural disaster that may leave us waiting a long time for help. But survival skills are survival skills, in the event of something unforeseen, they're portable skills.

& this is the kind of thing that can be taught in the fun family outings that bring families together as a unit, it doesn't need nor should it be a doom and gloom type of teaching. We always called it camping. lol


ETA: Speedy recovery wishes to you Daniel! It's good to see you & know you're home.

Happy New Year, ROS!!!! Wishing you and your family the very best.

I was only gone overnight and was in hospital 1 1/2 days.

There is certainly nothing wrong with being prepared in case of disasters, but this "prepper" thing strikes me as much more than that.

Then, for the first time in her life, Bedford went to a gun range and shot a .22 handgun. Now she regularly takes her two young children, 7 and 10, to target practice. "Over the last two years, I started feeling more and more unsettled about everything I was seeing, and I started thinking, 'What if we were in the same boat?'" says Bedford, 49

[R~O~S]

If that storm doesn't happen down thar in the great state this year, I think Mimi's '60's scout should consider bringing the S-son up this way for a camping trip.

NH is good, Maine is better. You snow shoe out from base camp (in about 6' of base snow) about 5 miles, build a snow shelter, set a fire and have the most wonderful peaceful surroundings that do nothing but invite the kind of deep conversations that you cherish in years to come.

Mimi, it is truly a life changing experience. Your S-son really would enjoy it. I think, it's probably the only camping experience that can't be replicated in the more southern states.

[daniel green]

Link to the Preppers Network site:

http://www.newsweek.com//frameset.aspx/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanpreppersnetwork.com% 2F

[Mimi428]

There is certainly nothing wrong with being prepared in case of disasters, but this "prepper" thing strikes me as much more than that.

Then, for the first time in her life, Bedford went to a gun range and shot a .22 handgun. Now she regularly takes her two young children, 7 and 10, to target practice. "Over the last two years, I started feeling more and more unsettled about everything I was seeing, and I started thinking, 'What if we were in the same boat?'" says Bedford, 49

<snipped>

I think your assessment is accurate & that a significant number of 'preppers' are concerned about scenarios that I don't think are likely.

We know (from reading different news articles) that there is again a rise in the number of folks who are militia-minded, just as there was a rise during the Clinton years. I have read reports about the greatly increased demands for buying ammunition. There always seems to be some rumor running rampant about how this event or that is going to cause the POTUS to take away everyone's guns, send in UN troops & do all sorts of things - IOW, the kind of stuff that Timothy McVeigh was so certain was happening.

The one scenario that I believe with certainty will happen will be the day when the avian flu or some other viral illness will burst upon us in a virulent outbreak. I don't think it is a matter of if, but a matter of when. That is going to wreak havoc - whether it will be within my lifetime - who knows? As comparatively mild as the swine flu outbreak has been, it has provided us with a pretty sad indication of just how ill-prepared we will be for the day when a much more ravaging virus hits a large population.

JMO

[R~O~S]

Happy New Year, ROS!!!! Wishing you and your family the very best.

I was only gone overnight and was in hospital 1 1/2 days.

There is certainly nothing wrong with being prepared in case of disasters, but this "prepper" thing strikes me as much more than that.

Then, for the first time in her life, Bedford went to a gun range and shot a .22 handgun. Now she regularly takes her two young children, 7 and 10, to target practice. "Over the last two years, I started feeling more and more unsettled about everything I was seeing, and I started thinking, 'What if we were in the same boat?'" says Bedford, 49


Happy New Year to you Daniel!! I'm so sorry I wasn't around to wish you well! I was reading back and terribly upset I wasn't aware, but I'm so glad everything went well.

Now, I gotta tell ya, it wasn't a survivalist thing, but a scouting thing that had this peace loving, left of center, always striving to be tolerant, city girl teach her children & the rest of the troop how to fire a .22 (long gun) a really long time ago. They can also shoot a bow, a skill I picked up in girl scout camp more decades ago than I want to consider. I never did teach any of them how to shoot a handgun. Handguns are not about survival skills, but the safety rules apply to all guns.

Is this weird? I really never thought it was unusual. I wanted my boys to know how to shoot, but more importantly I needed to know they were learning gun safety at the same time.

Guns are a huge problem because of all the illegal guns on the street. It's horrifying how many children are killed every year because they "found" a loaded gun.

My kids never would have "played" with any gun. By the time they were old enough to come in contact with one in that way, they'd already been educated, the curiosity factor had already been squelched.

I don't hunt, I never have, but I could if my survival depended on it. Guns in this area for hunting are not uncommon & I can't depend on every gun owner to be responsible. My responsibility was to make sure my kids were educated about guns & I did a dang good job. I really did.

I dunno, I think it is different because this is something these folks are intentionally doing where as it's just life skills & common sense as far as I'm concerned?

It's kinda making me question myself, if you know what I mean?

It's just stuff we've always done without a lot of thought, but it gives me comfort to know I have these skills if I ever need them.

[Mimi428]

Link to the Preppers Network site:

http://www.newsweek.com//frameset.aspx/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanpreppersnetwork.com% 2F

Here's one of the links inside the article -

http://www.prepper.org/


Mission Statement

Prepper.org is a public information site for those who wish:

•to learn about what preppers are and
•to learn about the prepper movement,
•to promote the prepper networks and their supporters
We provide a resource of links and information available to anyone who wants to prepare for and survive the hard times we are facing.


You are a Prepper if you are

1.a person who grows and /or stores food, water, and other supplies in preparation for disasters of all types, i.e., economic collapse, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes etc..

2.a patriot who is against Fascism, Communism, National Socialism, Globalism, and Totalitarianism, and believes that these types of governments lead to oppression and death of innocent people, thus the need to prepare for survival.

3.a member of a Prepper Network

That's an interesting combination & it again brings to my mind the social psychology of how & what kind of persuasion techniques people use to promote ideas.

Is it reasonable to be prepared for storms & natural disasters? Of course! Is it smart to have your household ready in case you are w/o electricity for days on end? Yes!

Now pair up those rational ideas on how to be ready for reasonably anticipated scenarios with a quick rush to promoting the less-than-reasonable scanarios - voila!

[daniel green]

ROS, all my children learned how to shoot, as well, though we do not own any guns and never have. My brother is quite the hunter (we could not be more different) and he owns a ranch where he raises horses and he taught them to shoot and gun safety.

For me, given the carnage I have seen over the years, I would love to have no guns, period.

[R~O~S]

"...I would love to have no guns, period."

You have already stated that you have no guns.

I also wish there were no guns, not owning one myself doesn't remove them from the planet. I didn't have any difficulty understanding what was said.

You're not trying to bait, are you?

[ShooFly]

I also wish there were no guns, not owning one myself doesn't remove them from the planet. I didn't have any difficulty understanding what was said.

You're not trying to bait, are you?


One guess.:glare:

[Brady]

Preparing for disaster like earth quakes, etc. is one thing, but I do not understand how far some take this.

I knew a couple who I thought were quite rational, but when the y2k scares were going around, they shut down their business and took their family to Montana to go into survival mode.

[R~O~S]

No, not in any way. Just trying to point out that such wishes sound profound, but are absolutely preposterous. There were numerous wars, battles, and slaughters way before the invention of firearms; it is the nature of man.

What about no more starvation, no disease, no murder, no rapes, etc.....? Utopian thoughts, but illogical fantasies.

I, also, wish there was no misery in the world. But singling out firearms as the cause, or a cure, is just pie-in-the-sky.

We don't teach starvation, disease, murder or rape at least I hope we don't. At any rate, none of them are on topic for this thread which does focus on survivalist skills and involves guns as stated in the article.

So apparently you're not baiting, just trying to take the thread off topic?

[ShooFly]

No, not in any way. Just trying to point out that such wishes sound profound, but are absolutely preposterous. There were numerous wars, battles, and slaughters way before the invention of firearms; it is the nature of man.

What about no more starvation, no disease, no murder, no rapes, etc.....? Utopian thoughts, but illogical fantasies.

I, also, wish there was no misery in the world. But singling out firearms as the cause, or a cure, is just pie-in-the-sky.

Nothing wrong with thoughts and hopes, even if they can never be attained. :confused:

[syringa]

I can see why many would want to have firearms. Hunting is the obvious reason, but also if you are the only one who prepared in the neighborhood, you made have to defend what you have.

Most of you seem to understand the logic behind preparing for emergencies such as storms and power outages....too many days of that and the misery can take over for the unprepared. Entitlement and sharing will be the mindset of way too many imo.

[ShooFly]

I can see why many would want to have firearms. Hunting is the obvious reason, but also if you are the only one who prepared in the neighborhood, you made have to defend what you have.

Most of you seem to understand the logic behind preparing for emergencies such as storms and power outages....too many days of that and the misery can take over for the unprepared. Entitlement and sharing will be the mindset of way too many imo.
Needing a gun to defend one's home is overblown, imo. How often does that happen? :huh: The US has the most guns and the most murders. IMO we are a very violent country.

[Nic99]

Needing a gun to defend one's home is overblown, imo. How often does that happen? :huh: The US has the most guns and the most murders. IMO we are a very violent country.

ITA with you there. If guns are freely available in homes (and you do hear of children getting hold of them); then accidents too are likely to happen. Just saying; not looking to cause trouble.

[syringa]

Needing a gun to defend one's home is overblown, imo. How often does that happen? :huh: The US has the most guns and the most murders. IMO we are a very violent country.

Remember you said this if someone ever tries and steals from you during an emergency. People can become very violent when they feel desparate and will do whatever they think they can get away with. We haven't been truly tested yet - and I hope we never are - but, if society broke down for whatever reasons, I would want to defend myself.

We have had small tastes of this with riots and looting in the past.

[daniel green]

"...I would love to have no guns, period."

You have already stated that you have no guns.

I mean, for nobody to have them. Period.

[syringa]

:confused: Are you a person of faith? I ask, because your faith in your fellow man seems a bit underwhelming.

As to 'defending' what one has, please explain how an arsenal filled with assault weapons fits the defense definition. tia

I am a person of faith, but I am also a realist. Desparation can make almost anyone do things imo.

I think anyone can choose their weapon of choice in their own defense.

[daniel green]

Needing a gun to defend one's home is overblown, imo. How often does that happen? :huh: The US has the most guns and the most murders. IMO we are a very violent country.

That defending one's home myth really rarely happens.

When you see the number of children who have actually witnessed gun violence in this country, the problem becomes a staggering one.

[Nic99]

Great point. Gun in the home and small children - so take out the firing pin, lock up the gun and lock up the ammo in a separate place. :confused:

Now, can anyone explain to me why I would have a gun for self-defense in those circumstances?

Yes, but unfortunately people aren't always responsible with their guns are they and forget to lock them away, etc, etc. I mean there must be a lot of domestic murders because the husband or wife decide to raid the gun cabinet and shoot their partner in a fit of rage. Most over here go for the kitchen knives drawer!!

[R~O~S]

If you were to take the guns out of the hand of the citizens who are legally entitled to have them, then the only people who would have guns would be the criminals.

My family does not own guns, but all of my children are trained in gun safety, and can shoot very well. Just because I choose to not have them in my home does not mean I want them removed from access.
But I can respect that some look at things differently.

I grew up with the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" moto taught to me.


Where did I say I wanted to take them away from anyone?

What I did say is I taught my children to shoot & at the same time I taught them gun safety because I can't depend on every gun owner to be responsible. My responsibility was to educate my children & I did. If I needed to provide for myself, I could even though I don't hunt and never did.

What I did say is I wish they didn't exist, which isn't the same as taking them away from anyone. If procurement of food was the objective, guns aren't necessary for that purpose. Snaring, bow hunting & fishing will fill that bill quite nicely.

It's a very sad fact that humans are the only species on the planet that kills for no reason. Animals kill only to protect themselves and for food. People kill for no reason & that's a fact that makes guns a reality in our society. A reality we need to teach our children in order to keep them safe, because not all gun owners are responsible. We don't need to wait for someone to try to take from us, or to defend our homes. The number of children that die in this country yearly because they found a loaded gun and shot themselves with it is reason enough.

[syringa]

That defending one's home myth really rarely happens.

When you see the number of children who have actually witnessed gun violence in this country, the problem becomes a staggering one.

Neither I nor the "preppers" in your OP believe in guns for the sake of going out and committing crimes or being stupid owners at home. That is also over blown imo.

We believe in responsible ownership for the expressed reason of defense. Protection against those who have no respect for you or what is rightfully yours. People who laughed at those who prepared for emergencies but would then like to take from those who prepared.

[syringa]

I grew up in a home with gun racks on just about every wall, right there for any hand to touch. I was taught gun safety, and I never went against my father's wishes or my training and touched any of them.
I choose not to have guns in my home while I have small children. My sisters and brothers, OTOH, have hunting rifles and shotguns in their homes, just like my father and grandfather did.
It's all a matter of choice, and parental training.

In my experience, most kids do know the limits. I also had guns in the home growing up....never tempted. My kids respected the limits too in my home. It is an over blown fear that kids are always going to go play with the guns daily. It is rare imo.

[daniel green]

Teens on Target

Fact Sheet


Each year, about 30,000 people die of gun injuries in the United States. This is the equivalent to filling up the entire Staples Center arena in Los Angeles, with a line of 10,000 more people waiting at the door. (CDC WISQARS database, taken from NCHS Vital Statistics System, 2003.)

In 2004, 2,852 youth ages 19 and under in the US were killed as the result of a firearm. That's almost 8 youth a day –the equivalent of an entire classroom full of high school students every four days. (WISQARS database, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC. 2004.)


In 2005, 1,079,301 high school students across America took a weapon to school at least once every 30 days. (CDC, Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System. 2005.)

According to the CDC, in 2006, more than 720,000 young people ages 10-24 were treated in emergency departments for injuries sustained due to violence. (Centers for Disease Control Youth Violence Facts at a Glance, Summer 2008)

The average hospital bill for each person wounded by a gun in the US is over $250,000; a bullet costs 33 cents. (Economic Costs of Gun Violence Fact Sheet, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence)

More than half of the middle school students in Oakland and Los Angeles schools state that they can get a gun in a couple of hours if they wanted to (Teens on Target workshops)

Gang members are 60 times more likely to be killed than non-gang members. (Hutson, H Range, et al. Adolescents and children injured or killed in drive-by shootings in Los Angeles. The New England Journal of Medicine Vol 330, no. 5

In 2007, in CA, 1,000 guns were sold per day except for the day after Thanksgiving, when 2,500 guns were sold (CA Office of the Attorney General)

States with the highest rates of gun ownership also have the highest overall murder rates (Miller et al, Rates of Firearm Ownership and Homicide American Journal of Public Health Dec 2002)

People in possession of a firearm are almost 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than people who are not in possession of a firearm. (Charles C. Branas et al; American Journal of Public Health, November 2009)


http://www.youthalive.org/advocacy/facts.htm

[daniel green]

snipped
It's all a matter of choice, and parental training.

And a matter of health and life and death.

I never once allowed my children to play in a house in which there was a gun--even if locked and put away. That was always a question I asked before I allowed them to go in anyone else's house.

[R~O~S]

Don't know that "realists" as a rule believe as you do.

As to your second statement do you really mean "can" or perhaps, should. Just one example, as to why there should be some guidance, if one elects to have a weapon. Person lives in an apt, goes out and buys max fire power, and in a moment of panic shoots their own child sleeping in the next room.

Fire extinguishers are PASS: pull, aim, squeeze, and sweep. Simple enough, but a nightmare, if the wrong fire extinguisher is used.

imeo A whole lot more education needs to be involved, before a gun is purchased.

BBM

Absolutely without a doubt true!

Any idiot can walk into Walmart, Modell's or Pro Bass Shops and buy a rifle, no training required, no waiting period.

Requiring that every legal gun actually be owned by someone qualified to use it would go a long way toward preventing the tragedies.

An untrained gun owner is more likely to be killed by their own gun than to be saved by it. JMHO, because although I've read the statistics, I'm not of a mind to bother finding them right now, especially since this entire conversation is off topic.

Someone wanted to derail the thread, and they got their wish.

[syringa]

http://www.youthalive.org/advocacy/facts.htm

These certainly don't seem to fit into the catagory of survivalists or "preppers". They sound like the ones who would pull a gun on me to take my food stash though.

[R~O~S]

And a matter of health and life and death.

I never once allowed my children to play in a house in which there was a gun--even if locked and put away. That was always a question I asked before I allowed them to go in anyone else's house.


If only that actually was an assurance there really wasn't a gun in the home!

There was a very recent case locally. The parents didn't own a gun. They were very good people, they had no idea their oldest son had a handgun hidden under his mattress. One of the younger children in the home found it. That child didn't survive.

[daniel green]

More American teenagers die from firearm injuries than all natural causes combined (Voelker 1995). .

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LB0JvzhhRw15b2x3516Gv lFTqp159h3qnj0zlrK0SHLBFLgZT3pG!-1986555990!1888687908?docId=5000373407

[daniel green]

If only that actually was an assurance there really wasn't a gun in the home!

There was a very recent case locally. The parents didn't own a gun. They were very good people, they had no idea their oldest son had a handgun hidden under his mattress. One of the younger children in the home found it. That child didn't survive.

Yes, it was the best assurance I could have. What an awful case. Just makes my heart sink.

[JennyM]

If only that actually was an assurance there really wasn't a gun in the home!

There was a very recent case locally. The parents didn't own a gun. They were very good people, they had no idea their oldest son had a handgun hidden under his mattress. One of the younger children in the home found it. That child didn't survive.

That's so sad. :sad:

[daniel green]

So, your brother, who taught your children gun safety and how to shoot was not allowed to have your children in his home?

He has never had guns in his home.

[Mimi428]

In my experience, most kids do know the limits. I also had guns in the home growing up....never tempted. My kids respected the limits too in my home. It is an over blown fear that kids are always going to go play with the guns daily. It is rare imo.

I could say the same things about the specific kids I have known on a personal basis - my kids, grandkids, relatives, friends & so on.

But I also have a former son-in-law working in Corrections who sees, every single day how often & how many OTHER kids don't have anywhere near the same mindset.

[daniel green]

Others are ready to battle the seemingly intractable problem of youth violence -- like Dr. Edward Barksdale Jr., the new chief pediatric surgeon at Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital.

During his first day in the rotation in Cleveland last summer, Barksdale treated a teenager shot in the leg, a 2-year-old shot in the arm and an 18-month-old shaken by its mother's boyfriend.

It awakened him to how much work needs to be done.

"I'd like to see the city and even the community in Northeast Ohio address the fact that we are dealing with an epidemic," he said. "We need not to distance ourselves, but to deal with the violence from the level of even bullying."

Barksdale said University Hospitals and Rainbow Babies is making youth violence a priority.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/04/if_we_treated_violence_as_a_di.html

[syringa]

I could say the same things about the specific kids I have known on a personal basis - my kids, grandkids, relatives, friends & so on.

But I also have a former son-in-law working in Corrections who sees, every single day how often & how many OTHER kids don't have anywhere near the same mindset.

I'll venture a guess here. I bet those same kids do not have parents who are preparing for emergencies etc (the topic of the thread who I thought we originally were talking about in having firearms).

[R~O~S]

Right...A hunter, and a ranch owner who does not own guns or keep them in his home....

I have a bridge for sell, if you think I buy that. :rolleyes:


Mine were stored at the gun club, never in the home once I had children.

Uncles were stored and locked at the lodge, not the home.

B-I-L is a fed, he does indeed keep his in the home. First thing he does when he gets home is lock it in a gun safe, his kids are both adults now.

A horse ranch, pig farm or sheep herder in Massachusetts doesn't have much need for a gun on the property, you're not allowed to discharge it in most parts of the state & yes we have all of those in my town.

Seriously, this sounds like a personal thing that doesn't belong in a public post.

[daniel green]

Right...A hunter, and a ranch owner who does not own guns or keep them in his home....

I have a bridge for sell, if you think I buy that. :rolleyes:

Well, goodness gracious, that is mighty rude.

Of course he OWNS guns.

[daniel green]

A horse ranch, pig farm or sheep herder in Massachusetts doesn't have much need for a gun on the property, you're not allowed to discharge it in most parts of the state & yes we have all of those in my town.

snipped.

Seriously. Why on earth would one keep a gun at a horse ranch? :confused:

[Mimi428]

It's the difference in children be raised and children raising themselves, in many cases.

I'm sure he gets a slew of them for which that would apply. But he has also gotten plenty who have had what we would consider good & decent & responsible parents.

Same goes for one of my B's-I-L, the one who is the ordained minister. He has had, over the years, many families consisting of good, decent, caring & responsible parents who have had the shock of their lives due to the illegal behavior of their children.

Same goes for the nurses in my family, the social worker, the firefighter, the counselor who has court-assigned juvenile sex offenders & so on. We (as in, all of us, everywhere) could only wish that the number of kids getting into real, & real serious trouble, were coming from 'bad' homes with inattentive or absent parents.

[daniel green]

And we absolutely cannot overlook the fact that more male teenagers die from firearm wounds than from all natural causes combined. Yes, firearm injuries are a serious public health concern, and we must find ways to reduce them. That is why the President has encouraged gun manufacturers to equip all handguns with trigger locks - and many have agreed. And that is why the President fought so hard for - and won - passage of the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban.

But violent death is not just a male problem. The homicide rate for female adolescents also grew over the last decade.

http://archive.hhs.gov/news/speeches/JuliusR.html

[syringa]

Right...A hunter, and a ranch owner who does not own guns or keep them in his home....

I have a bridge for sell, if you think I buy that. :rolleyes:

Where I live I couldn't imagine a ranch owner not having a firearm with him. There are critters out there that can and will attack the livestock!

Oh well, I am glad to live where I do - and I am glad we can still have firearms and don't even have to justify it to any do-gooder if we don't want to.

[JennyM]

Where I live I couldn't imagine a ranch owner not having a firearm with him. There are critters out there that can and will attack the livestock!

Oh well, I am glad to live where I do - and I am glad we can still have firearms and don't even have to justify it to any do-gooder if we don't want to.

Ranch owners have a need for guns. Bobcats, snakes, coyotes, bears. Lot's of reasons to own a gun on a ranch or farm.

[R~O~S]

Seriously. Why on earth would one keep a gun at a horse ranch? :confused:


In Massachusetts, none.

In Colorado, oh yes I'd have one to protect the horses in the event a predator came looking for an easy meal. But now we're talking about a completely different lifestyle and a completely different environment.

We have no such predators in Massachusetts. The closest you'd find here would be a fox or coyote, no big cats.

[Mimi428]

I'll venture a guess here. I bet those same kids do not have parents who are preparing for emergencies etc (the topic of the thread who I thought we originally were talking about in having firearms).

I'm still trying to figure out how many of the preppers are the sort who just literally want to be prepared for the next ice storm, or tornado or hurricane - or whatever - vs how many of them are waiting for some catastrophic breakdown of the government.

I'm not real worried about the general mindset & beliefs of folks who are responsible enough to plan ahead for spending a week w/o electricity. And I'm not concerned about the people who want to stock up the pantry in the event someone loses their job.

But the ones who think all h#ll is going to break loose, the government will collapse & we will all (within our families) have to take turns guarding our barricaded homes from roving gangs - I just don't know about that group.

I will go find a website I was reading earlier & post it - because the comments that were being left there were most definitely not the sort that I would expect from someone who just wants to be prepared to be comfy during a bad storm that knocks out the electricity for days.

[Hooterville]

Ahhh, so this is where the fur is flying.

I'd imagine out here in Hooterville, most of the ranch and farmer folk do have them. Me? I've no use for one. I won't be shooting any wild boar or deer for meat in this lifetime and I don't plan on having to defend myself or a herd against any carnivorous animals.

[syringa]

Or soldiers..WOW, I just can't grasp that. My children would never see 3/4 of my family if I didn't allow them around people who owned guns!

I think for many of us who have seen guns around a lot find them rather benign and lacking in any novelty that would intrigue children. My kids found them about as boring as a knick-knack that they were not to touch when they were young. When they got older they were taught gun safety and how to use them.

[syringa]

SNIPPED>

But the ones who think all h#ll is going to break loose, the government will collapse & we will all (within our families) have to take turns guarding our barricaded homes from roving gangs - I just don't know about that group.

I will go find a website I was reading earlier & post it - because the comments that were being left there were most definitely not the sort that I would expect from someone who just wants to be prepared to be comfy during a bad storm that knocks out the electricity for days.

If they are wrong, what harm was done? Then they just have some stocked up supplies. If they are right, they will look like the smart ones though. Best I can tell, they have no interest in harming you as long as you don't harm them.

[Brady]

And a matter of health and life and death.

I never once allowed my children to play in a house in which there was a gun--even if locked and put away. That was always a question I asked before I allowed them to go in anyone else's house.

A wise rule, imo. When I was 12 years old, my family moved us from a large city out to the country. My brothers and myself met the other kids there during our 1st summer and became great friends. Unfortunately, one of our new friends found his parents guns and accidentally killed his little brother. Years later, another incident happened, my older brothers best friend killed himself with his fathers gun.

[R~O~S]

Ahhh, so this is where the fur is flying.

I'd imagine out here in Hooterville, most of the ranch and farmer folk do have them. Me? I've no use for one. I won't be shooting any wild boar or deer for meat in this lifetime and I don't plan on having to defend myself or a herd against any carnivorous animals.

& those of us who have no need for them don't seem to be wanting to take them away from anyone who does. So why do they have a need to defend having them and see people coming to take them in the shadows while insulting those who live in a different environment?

What I do question is the survivalist who's armed to the teeth waiting for the total downfall of society and planning their defense against the roaming unnamed masses. Sounds a tad paranoid to me.

If they're truly capable, they'd know the Spaghetti Oes are gonna run out and they'd be better served to teach those masses how to provide for themselves before that happens, and therefore have no need to wipe out the masses in their defense of the Spaghetti Oes.

[Mimi428]

I am glad I live in my area of the country, too. I so miss the sight of my pops, on his horse riding the fence lines and always with a rifle strapped to his saddle.
I can't imagine any farmer or rancher in my area without at least ONE gun.
It's not an unusual sight in our area to see a farmer, on his Deere, driving down the state black top with a shotgun on his tractor going from one field to another during harvest time.

When the youngest nurse in the family was in school & had started doing her clinicals at a hospital in west Texas, her very first patient was a rancher in his 70's who had accidently shot himself in the leg with the pistol he had strapped into a holster.

Understandable why he had that gun, he had always carried & he lived in a area - & lived a lifestyle where it would not have caused anyone to raise an eyebrow. But he still managed to shoot himself in the leg with his own gun.

[Mimi428]

Here's a couple of prepper websites - found these by clicking on some links at the preppers.org site.


Since I am in Texas, I naturally wanted to see what was going on in my own state...

http://texaspreppersnetwork.blogspot.com/

I liked the first article - but be sure & check out the 2nd one - the one entitled: PATRIOTS ISSUE THE FINAL WARNING: LISTEN WASHINGTON!

Then I found this website -

http://wwwstayalive.blogspot.com/

Haven't read a thing on this site to make me believe this guy is primarily (or even secondarily) concerned about being self-sufficient in the event of a bad storm or some such thing.

[R~O~S]

:bored: I live with snakes, coyotes, bears, raccoons, etc. Better yet, I coexist with them. And, yes, I do own a gun, which btw has never been used on a living creature. IMO Understanding and preparation is not all about guns.

However, I did once use another gun - to euthanize a deer that had been hit by a car in front of us. In my defense, it was all I had available, the animal was screaming and help was too long in coming. I am truly sorry; it was in another country and I did not have access to the drugs and a needle which would have been better.


Not really wanting to ask personal information HHS, but really wondering what part of the country you live in? Don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable.

Fox, coyote, bear and snakes we have. By the time the food is running scarce for the bear they're hibernating, coyote & fox would be run off by the dogs, no snakes that could do more than a puncture wound and they're not of a mind unless they're cornered. Wolves were eradicated in this area long ago. They would have been the predator ranchers would have worried about in this area.

Big cats & I mean big, like mountain lions, those I'd think would require firearms. But, I don't live where they're an issue & I never have.

I'm just curious, if you have them, how do you deal with them?

[Mimi428]

Here's a website which seems to be much more centered on self-reliance. You can even get a lesson on how to shear a goat.

http://www.americanpreppersnetwork.com/

[JennyM]

:bored: I live with snakes, coyotes, bears, raccoons, etc. Better yet, I coexist with them. And, yes, I do own a gun, which btw has never been used on a living creature. IMO Understanding and preparation is not all about guns.

However, I did once use another gun - to euthanize a deer that had been hit by a car in front of us. In my defense, it was all I had available, the animal was screaming and help was too long in coming. I am truly sorry; it was in another country and I did not have access to the drugs and a needle which would have been better.

Why do you have the gun? To shoot non-living things?

[Mimi428]

What I do question is the survivalist who's armed to the teeth waiting for the total downfall of society and planning their defense against the roaming unnamed masses. Sounds a tad paranoid to me.


<snipped>

I think you have some of the same concerns that I have.

Learning to garden, learning how to safely build up a good supply of shelf-stable foods, keeping your car & your home ready in case of an emergency which will cut off your electricity or limit your abilities to leave home for a week or so - THAT, I can understand.

But stockpiling weapons & ammo? Giving &/or taking lessons on how to use guerilla tactics? Advising on how shooting the enemy in front of his buddies?

That's a whole 'nother critter - & it is pretty far away from the idea of being ready in case you get a bad snowstorm or hurricane.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Why do have the gun? To shoot non-living things?

Gun range. Target practice.

[R~O~S]

Why do have the gun? To shoot non-living things?

I've never shot or attempted to shoot a living thing. I've been known to target shoot, I'm licensed to carry because of a job in younger years (I no longer have the need) & my new D-I-L has promised to take me skeet shooting. She's from Virginia, her Dad has a skeet range on his farm.

[R~O~S]

:thumbup: That's a sport with an inanimate target. Would I be presuming to guess none of the guns involved are assault rifles?


lol, no I'm quite certain there will not be any automatic weapons involved.

[Mimi428]

When it happens to you, once is enough.

It happened to me on 12/12/08. Fortunately, the police arrived in time to arrest the scum trying to break into my home at 0200.

Remember--the cops do not always get there in time.

I'm relieved to hear that the police arrived before more harm was done.

We have guns in the house, but they are not loaded. If someone decided to break-in quickly, we'd have to knock the whiz out of them with the butt-end of the guns.

Now if a rattlesnake shows up in the backyard & decides to hang out long enough for one of the guns to get loaded, he's going to be dead from GSW.

[JennyM]

It's a leftover from my miltary days. :blushing: Call me lazy, I confess. But I promise you, I will take action to properly dispose of it, before my wife is pregnant. You have my word.

Shoot? I still shoot, but sensibly - with a camera.

We have several rifles that were passed down to us. Guns and ammo are locked in a gun cabinet hidden in a bedroom closet. The key is hidden in another part of the house. ETA Husband says ammo is locked in box over garage, not with guns.

[Moondust]

I don't own a gun...a bat and several canes, but no gun.

I will say that I support a persons right to arms as long as they are responsible. If we are faced with some tragedy, the scenario about someone coming to your home to pilage can become very real....preparedness is vital IMO




Carry on....:seeya:

[JennyM]

Collection/keepsakes and imeo, well protected. Would you disagree that with the precautions necessary to safely own a gun that the gun is no factor in defense?

No, I would agree. Our house alarm is our first defense, dog is second, knives and forks, third. :laugh:

[Mimi428]

Here's another survivalist's blog. Interesting comments posted here - especially by the woman who plans to kill her neighbors because they know she has stockpiled stuff. Then she plans to kill her family member when they show up.

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/2009/08/planing-for-new-arrivals.html

[JennyM]

:ohmy: She blabbed, then plans to blame the neighbors for knowing. :w00t: And, she's ready to kill her family, before she shares.

These people are extreme, imeo.

We stockpile, due to avalnaches, fires, etc. In fact, we stockpile enough to share with friends and family, as they do for us.

The Mormons are very good at storing up food, but they share.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon99.html

[R~O~S]

Here's another survivalist's blog. Interesting comments posted here - especially by the woman who plans to kill her neighbors because they know she has stockpiled stuff. Then she plans to kill her family member when they show up.

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/2009/08/planing-for-new-arrivals.html

OK, that's some scary stuff!

I've changed my mind, there's nothing about me that's anything like them.


Making it clear now, if the SHTF, come on over to my house. I'll teach y'all how to plant, forage, build a fire, purify water, build a shelter and divy up work assignments to make sure everything is covered.

Holy cow! :scared:

[Humdinger]

Needing a gun to defend one's home is overblown, imo. How often does that happen? :huh: The US has the most guns and the most murders. IMO we are a very violent country.

It only takes once, and you would wish that you were armed to defend your family.

I would offer you to ask the thousands upon thousands who have faced such tragedy, except that you can't question the dead.

[Moondust]

"...We have guns in the house, but they are not loaded. If someone decided to break-in quickly, we'd have to knock the whiz out of them with the butt-end of the guns...."

LOL!!!!!!! The intruder would probably laugh, take the gun away, and jam it where you could not imagine.

Have you ever actually been accosted by someone with "no-good" on their mind? I doubt it. Your mouth gets dry, you tremble, your mind goes 90 mph. I was hijacked by a thug with a shotgun in my chest, and once had a man pull a knife and lunge at me. Why, do you ask, that I put myself in such risk? Simple---I was WORKING in a retail establishment!

The lightning-quick disabling moves only happen in the movies.


You are absolutely right....we never know how we are going to REALLY act when we are put in such a posistion.

Sorry you had to go through what you did.

[Maranatha]

No, I would agree. Our house alarm is our first defense, dog is second, knives and forks, third. :laugh:

I depend on the sound of fleeing kitties as my secondary alert, but never sell short the sight of a 2 foot rotisserie spit with the gripping prongs facing the wrong way.

King County (Seattle) runs PSA's all the time to have 2 weeks of supplies in case of an earthquake. Guns aren't mentioned, but neither are generators. The message is we're on our own.

But so what if people take it farther? I feel sorry for them to be living in that mindset, but I think there's been plenty living with the mindset forever.

Last I read, having a bunch of canned goods and bottled water along with a registered firearm is perfectly legal. I don't need to be paranoid about their paranoia. Got enough demons of my own without invitiing others into my head.

MOO

[JennyM]

'K ... so please explain how one is to keep a loaded weapon in one's house "at the ready" and not suffer a real tragedy, if one has children.

And, while you are googling for a link to your 'thousands upon thousands' claim (tia) .... you might want to google accidents and guns.

About the only way I could think of doing that is to have the loaded weapon locked up with the only key tied around my neck.

[R~O~S]

About the only way I could think of doing that is to have the loaded weapon locked up with the only key tied around my neck.


Wait! You mean you're letting hubby take the hit if you're not home at the time?


<so sorry, I'm totally kidding, but I couldn't help myself>

[daniel green]

Ranch owners have a need for guns. Bobcats, snakes, coyotes, bears. Lot's of reasons to own a gun on a ranch or farm.

In Dade Cty, FL? :scared: Heck the stalls in the barns have chanderliers.

[JennyM]

Wait! You mean you're letting hubby take the hit if you're not home at the time?


<so sorry, I'm totally kidding, but I couldn't help myself>

LOL! Ok, two keys, one around each of our necks. :laugh:

[JennyM]

In Dade Cty, FL? :scared: Heck the stalls in the barns have chanderliers.

I wouldn't call those a ranch or a farm. Chandeliers. Oh, my. :scared:

[daniel green]

If it is for the humane dispatch of an injured animal, there are drugs available which are far more humane and accurate.

Indeed.

I may have given the wrong impression with the ranch--though that is what it's called. He raises Arabian horses--which is not the rough and tumble wild west mythology. It's more science and mucking than wrangling. Well, no wrangling at all.

[daniel green]

:bored: I live with snakes, coyotes, bears, raccoons, etc. Better yet, I coexist with them. And, yes, I do own a gun, which btw has never been used on a living creature. IMO Understanding and preparation is not all about guns.

However, I did once use another gun - to euthanize a deer that had been hit by a car in front of us. In my defense, it was all I had available, the animal was screaming and help was too long in coming. I am truly sorry; it was in another country and I did not have access to the drugs and a needle which would have been better.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I am so sorry to hear about the deer. You did the right thing.

[daniel green]

OK, that's some scary stuff!

I've changed my mind, there's nothing about me that's anything like them.


Making it clear now, if the SHTF, come on over to my house. I'll teach y'all how to plant, forage, build a fire, purify water, build a shelter and divy up work assignments to make sure everything is covered.

Holy cow! :scared:

Oh, my darling ROS--I love this post. :wub:

Of course there is nothing about you that is anything like them!!!!

[daniel green]

A wise rule, imo. When I was 12 years old, my family moved us from a large city out to the country. My brothers and myself met the other kids there during our 1st summer and became great friends. Unfortunately, one of our new friends found his parents guns and accidentally killed his little brother. Years later, another incident happened, my older brothers best friend killed himself with his fathers gun.

Oh, how tragic and horrible. :sad: That truly breaks my heart.

Seeing so many kids in just that type of situation, and losing many kids in my caseloads to gun violence (or seeing them in wheelchairs for the rest of their lives) it was the only thing I could think to do.

[daniel green]

:wub: NP Out here in the former wild west, where we still have the privilege of coexisting with our fellow critters, the odds on shooting a critter in self-defense are lesser than a skittery sort in an urban parking lot shooting someone who asks for a match. imeo? A gun is a very poor solution for the fearful.

As the stats I posted upthread indicate--ppl who own guns are more likely to be the victims of them.

Did you read this week about those two NBA player who got angry in the locker room and both of them pulled out guns from their lockers? :scared:

[R~O~S]

Indeed.

I may have given the wrong impression with the ranch--though that is what it's called. He raises Arabian horses--which is not the rough and tumble wild west mythology. It's more science and mucking than wrangling. Well, no wrangling at all.

Very much what we have, they raise riding horses, trail horses, police mounts. We have dairy farms, some sheep farms & pigs. Not wild west stuff, no need for guns. We have ordinances prohibiting discharging them except on a licensed range & they're few and far between. Most are at private gun clubs.

You'd need to travel further west to get somewhere in state you can legally hunt, than you would north to get to another state with hunting areas.

It is a ranch & the D-I-L goes home to the "farm", the one with the dock stretching out into Chesapeake Bay & a skeet shooting range. What the heck else are we supposed to call it?

[daniel green]

Most people that own firearms also practice smart gun ownership.

snipped.



Fact Sheet


Each year, about 30,000 people die of gun injuries in the United States. This is the equivalent to filling up the entire Staples Center arena in Los Angeles, with a line of 10,000 more people waiting at the door. (CDC WISQARS database, taken from NCHS Vital Statistics System, 2003.)

In 2004, 2,852 youth ages 19 and under in the US were killed as the result of a firearm. That's almost 8 youth a day –the equivalent of an entire classroom full of high school students every four days. (WISQARS database, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC. 2004.)

In 2005, 1,079,301 high school students across America took a weapon to school at least once every 30 days. (CDC, Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System. 2005.)

According to the CDC, in 2006, more than 720,000 young people ages 10-24 were treated in emergency departments for injuries sustained due to violence. (Centers for Disease Control Youth Violence Facts at a Glance, Summer 2008)

The average hospital bill for each person wounded by a gun in the US is over $250,000; a bullet costs 33 cents. (Economic Costs of Gun Violence Fact Sheet, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence)

More than half of the middle school students in Oakland and Los Angeles schools state that they can get a gun in a couple of hours if they wanted to (Teens on Target workshops)

Gang members are 60 times more likely to be killed than non-gang members. (Hutson, H Range, et al. Adolescents and children injured or killed in drive-by shootings in Los Angeles. The New England Journal of Medicine Vol 330, no. 5

In 2007, in CA, 1,000 guns were sold per day except for the day after Thanksgiving, when 2,500 guns were sold (CA Office of the Attorney General)

States with the highest rates of gun ownership also have the highest overall murder rates (Miller et al, Rates of Firearm Ownership and Homicide American Journal of Public Health Dec 2002)

People in possession of a firearm are almost 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than people who are not in possession of a firearm. (Charles C. Branas et al; American Journal of Public Health, November 2009)
http://www.youthalive.org/advocacy/facts.htm

[daniel green]

Not wild west stuff, no need for guns. snipped.

Exactly, ROS. No need at all.

[daniel green]

Here's a couple of prepper websites - found these by clicking on some links at the preppers.org site.


Since I am in Texas, I naturally wanted to see what was going on in my own state...

http://texaspreppersnetwork.blogspot.com/

I liked the first article - but be sure & check out the 2nd one - the one entitled: PATRIOTS ISSUE THE FINAL WARNING: LISTEN WASHINGTON!

snipped.

Ruby Ridge, revisited.

[daniel green]

Here's another survivalist's blog. Interesting comments posted here - especially by the woman who plans to kill her neighbors because they know she has stockpiled stuff. Then she plans to kill her family member when they show up.

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/2009/08/planing-for-new-arrivals.html

She needs to be locked up ASAP.

Nice that she was able to add some anti-Semitism while thinking about killing her mother and neighbors.

[daniel green]

Veterinarian Richard Kimball of Burns has noticed a disturbing trend among some of his friends.

A Rockaway Beach couple has stockpiled food and assembled survival backpacks for their three adult children in Portland and Eugene. "If chaos arises, they can put the backpacks on so they can get home," said Kimball, 72. "There is a pistol in each of the backpacks."

Another longtime friend, a Harney County cattle rancher, recently bought an AK-47 assault rifle and 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/the_new_survivalists_oregon_pr.html

[daniel green]

snipped

:ohmy: What sort of thinking feels a gun in one's locker is appropriate. And, there were two in that mindset.

Is that not crazy? 2d Ammendment, dontcha know?

I know it was a very difficult, difficult thing for you to end the deer's suferring. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. :sad:

[daniel green]

Back in 1995, I believe, one of my clients and three friends cut school and they were up to no good, trying to take a golf cart and golf clubs out of an open garage in a home. The home-owner took a gun and ran after them, shooting, down the street, and shot my client in the back several times, killing him. He was 15.

Within the same month, an armed intruder broke into the home of a woman psychologist in Chapel Hill. She actually listened to him and made him some food. He calmed down, they called the police (who had been surrounding the house, iirc) and he surrendered peacefully.

[daniel green]

One of the thugs tried to excuse his behavior by saying that he did not want his child having access to the guns at his home---of course, his child is only a few months old. Gotta watch those two-month old kids!:confused:

snipped.

Excuse me? Thugs? :confused:

[R~O~S]

Precisely. As I posted, yes, thank you, I did the "right thing" by helping the deer. But I fear for those who miss the point, it wasn't easy. Point being, most people are good and I seriously doubt they will find shooting a person, in any circumstances, to be easy. That hesitation and that gun could cost them their life.

:ohmy: What sort of thinking feels a gun in one's locker is appropriate. And, there were two in that mindset.


What sort of thinking professional finds that a solution when league rules prohibit them on league property? They don't prohibit them from owning them legally, they expressly prohibit bringing them on league property. & I love the little tidbit about it all being over a gambling debt.

HELLO!! Gambling & professional sports? Thinking that maybe should be a big part of the story, not a side note.

[daniel green]

& I love the little tidbit about it all being over a gambling debt.

snipped.

That just made it even the more nutty.

[daniel green]

I believe they had bet each other something and the "winner" had not paid.

Probly like $25.00.

It really does put this gun culture into focus.

[R~O~S]

I support the 2nd Amend - with the guns available, when it was written.

:wub: Your kindness is appreciated. Given all the circumstances, I did do the "right thing." My question remains - would all the survival lites give as much thought to killing a person with less reason?

Based on what I read on those sites Mimi posted, I think they're hoping for the chance. JMHO

Really really scary stuff & so illogical. If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, if you teach a man to fish.......

Good Night All!

Be Good & Be Well!

[Mimi428]

As the stats I posted upthread indicate--ppl who own guns are more likely to be the victims of them.

Did you read this week about those two NBA player who got angry in the locker room and both of them pulled out guns from their lockers? :scared:

Exactly. It is one more example of the saying that when you only have a h@mmer, everything you see looks like a nail.

People who don't go around carrying loaded guns - or thinking about getting their loaded guns - find other ways to react when they are provoked. Maybe they hit someone. Maybe they cuss them out. Maybe they flail & throw themselves around & generally cause a big scene. But when that gun is ready to be used, it is too d@mned easy to be used in anger.

[daniel green]

NBA players packing iron, in DC, against NBA rules = thugs.

Wait, isn't it their constitutional rights or what have you? Were you not supporting the 2d ammend upthread?

[Mimi428]

LOL!!!!!!! The intruder would probably laugh, take the gun away, and jam it where you could not imagine.

Have you ever actually been accosted by someone with "no-good" on their mind? I doubt it. Your mouth gets dry, you tremble, your mind goes 90 mph. I was hijacked by a thug with a shotgun in my chest, and once had a man pull a knife and lunge at me. Why, do you ask, that I put myself in such risk? Simple---I was WORKING in a retail establishment!

The lightning-quick disabling moves only happen in the movies.

<snipped>

Oh, ITA with you that the lightning-fast reactions in the movies are not a reflection of real life.

An intruder breaking into my home would need to come armed with something, though. The Vietnam combat vet does possess some serious reflexes. I have seen him go from a deep sleep to being on his feet & ready to rock 'n roll in less time than it took me to start thinking "was that a noise that I heard outside or was I dreaming?". Me & Mr T would be saying "I pity the poor fool who thought he was going to mess with J...".

I am sincerely sorry to hear of your experiences with people who had violent intentions and I am relieved & happy that you are here to add your own opinions to the thread.

[Mimi428]

She needs to be locked up ASAP.

Nice that she was able to add some anti-Semitism while thinking about killing her mother and neighbors.

Yes, I did notice that, too.

The mindset that everyone is against you, that everyone means you harm, that catastrophe & chaos are just around the corner - I just cannot fathom how a body could stay sane & even semi-rational & have those kinds of beliefs in their head every day.

She's ready to go out & kill her neighbors based on nothing more than the fact that they have knowledge that she is a 'survivalist' - that she stockpiles food & has a big garden. Good grief, what kind of thinking is that?? Her innocent neighbors could be knocking on the door to check on her & her kids, to make sure they were OK & to ask if they needed anything - & she'd be ready to kill them, thinking they were after her food.

Sick, sick, sick.

[daniel green]

Mimi, and they are using the Bible and apostles to somehow justify plans to kill neighbors and family. Unbelievable.

[Mimi428]

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/the_new_survivalists_oregon_pr.html

Sounds like they were reading this part of one of the blogs...

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/2009/06/survival-pack.html

The Grab And Go Survival Pack

Excerpt...

No matter how well armed or prepared you are, you can be overran by a large enough force, remember Waco? Sometimes escape is the only option, or at least the only one that will keep you alive.

Having a survival pack and avenue of escape makes sense. If you can put some distance between yourself and the threat, there is always the option of a launching a retaliatory strike from a more favorable position.

For example; I have two separate and independent escape routes worked out, both leading to a vantage point 462 yards away over looking my place. If I know I am going to be outnumbered and out gunned, I will grab my survival pack and rifle, making my way to this point.

The range has been marked with a range finder and I have set-up and shot silhouettes positioned around my place, so I know anything in that area is an easy target.

I don't think this person is thinking about how to stay self-sufficient after a flood, loss of electricity, snow or ice storm & the like.

[doctor_J]

Getting away from the gun issue (which never changes anyone's mind) and back to storm preparedness, does anyone know how long bottled water keeps safely?. I never know when to throw it out. I'm talking about the gallon jugs. Also, does anyone know how you can store up your own bottled water, in say, sterilized milk jugs? Growing up on the Gulf Coast made me always conscious of being prepared to be without electriciy and running water for at least a month. After moving 100's of miles from the Gulf, I starting letting this slide. Then we had an ice storm that took out power and water for 3 weeks, and I'm in the middle of the city! It can happen to anyone.

Another problem I've had is with storing batteries. I had 2 perfectly good battery powered latterns that when I pulled them out, the batteries had leaked acid and corroded the lattern. Now I know not to put batteries in the latterns but have to buy new ones. How long do batteries last dependably if kept refrigerated?

[doctor_J]

Yes, I did notice that, too.

The mindset that everyone is against you, that everyone means you harm, that catastrophe & chaos are just around the corner - I just cannot fathom how a body could stay sane & even semi-rational & have those kinds of beliefs in their head every day.

She's ready to go out & kill her neighbors based on nothing more than the fact that they have knowledge that she is a 'survivalist' - that she stockpiles food & has a big garden. Good grief, what kind of thinking is that?? Her innocent neighbors could be knocking on the door to check on her & her kids, to make sure they were OK & to ask if they needed anything - & she'd be ready to kill them, thinking they were after her food.

Sick, sick, sick.

I'm worried that woman might be one of my neighbors. She's delusional, paranoid and obsessed. Worst of all, she's reproducing still and homeschooling the poor kids.

Even more worrisome than one mentally disturbed woman is that there are plenty of folks agreeing with her on that site. I'd rather not have read it. So disturbing.

[Mimi428]

Doctor J, I do not know the answers to your questions, but you sure have good questions!

I have kept batteries in the freezer, sometimes for a pretty significant period of time, & they do not seem to be adversely affected.

I was just looking at an article on Wikipedia & it is chock full of info & a ton of different links - maybe some of your answers will be on one of the survivalist websites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism

[theal3]

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/emergwatersuppl.html


Here's an article about storage of water.

[Mimi428]

Doctor J - here is some info about water...

What You Should Know About Water Purification And Storage

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/2009/08/what-you-should-know-about-water.html

[doctor_J]

thanks for the info and links folks.

HeyHeyStupid (hate calling you that, it might get me banned). Hate hearing the 6 month deadline. I like to store a lot of water. It's my biggest fear, running out of clean water. Going to check out the links for purification. Never thought of putting the batteries in the freezer. I thought they would swell and burst. They're not cheap and some have been stored in my extra frig for years. Probably don't want to depend on them. Any personal experience with how long they lasted?

[theal3]

We keep oil lamps ready for when elec. goes out; also have manual wind up led light flashlights. We store batteries in other flashlights, upside down; then when ready to use, put them in correctly. Also have a dozen or so battery operated 6 inch candles with on and off switches. Keep a few cases of bottled water on hand, at all times.

[theal3]

all good things to do.

However, I cannot stress beyond food and water as sustenance, the importance of water as survival - google away, but I stand by my survival training. It's a human thing to be clean. And, has been proven in many cases that the little things like brushing your teeth and bathing enhance your will to survive. so, please stock the toothpaste, soap and water bladders you might not drink.


Yes, I have that (cleanliness stuff); also keep large 5 lb. bags of rice, assorted beans, flour, and pastas. Have a cord of wood staked, too; also a stash of vegetable seeds.

[doctor_J]

HHS -- to answer your question my lanterns are just coleman battery operated. They use 4 size D batteries and one will light up an average size bedroom as well as 2-60 watt light bulbs. You could read from anywhere in the room. Never had to use them long enough to use up battery power but I know they provide excellent lighting for at least 3 days of continuous use. Much more light than oil lamps but I think I'll get a couple of those for backup.

Ok, that Fema site says city or county water can be stored with 16 drops (1/4 tsp.)/gallon of standard household bleach added for 6 months and manufactored bottled or distilled water is good for 1 year. Also says can't use milk jugs (due to fat) but any other plastic for beverages is good (soft drink or juice bottles). Good info.

Now all I need is a 55 gallon plastic drum to collect rainwater for bathing/chores.

[Mimi428]

And whatever your source of light, don't forget to have plenty of mirrors handy. You will be able to greatly increase the light output, just by having a mirror reflecting the light.

Not particularly useful for the beams coming from flashlights, but very useful when your light source is a candle, oil lamp or such as that.

[Silk]

Being "originally" from the state of California I have to tell ya. When we moved to California in 1969 we knew nothing about the real effects of an earthquake. Coming from the Midwest we knew everything about Tornado's, blizzards and rain storms. Well, in January of 1972 at 5:32 in the morning we were hit and the center of the Earthquake was in our town. We panic and everything came tumbling down, brick walls on our property down and the entire house was busted up. We had no water, electric, or a means of food. We were not prepared at all.
We were told that the dam was going to break. That would have created a huge dangerous disastrous flood and additional deaths.
I recall at the age of 14 my father had to find a way out of our town and into another to find water and food to bring back.
From then on we as a family stocked up and our pantry was full of water, can goods and dry goods. First aid kits and blankets and cloths to keep us warm. Flash lights and lanterns and candles. Many, many things one needs for emergencies like this.
We were hit again in 1994 and again a few years later. We happened to be in the epic center that time too. It's good to be prepared so all you need to worry about is the safety of your family members.
That being said, never arrange your furniture) beds, cribs, day beds under a window in the state of California. Make sure your heavy furniture like televisions, entertainment centers are secure and set far away from where you sleep.
There is a lot to think about with Earthquakes in the state of California. You are not privileged to get forewarned in an Earthquake as you are a tornado or blizzard.

[Nic99]

That was a great discussion you guys had on here last night; shame I couldn't have been a part of it - damn time differences!!

Anyways, I just wanted to say, on reading through your threads, it was a real eye opener to me just how different as countries we really are. Not just the size, but the animals, the people, the laws, the crime, etc. It was really interesting to read your different experiences and I love the way you are all never afraid to say what you think.

Getting back on track, my opinion is that any gun owners should possess at the very least a certificate of arms. It is shocking to read that anyone can go into a store and buy a gun in some States! I mean, that just doesn't bode well does it. No wonder there are so many gun crimes in the US.

[hatkie]

At the dollar general store here they're selling flash lights that don't run on batteries. You wind them.

[hatkie]

Neither I nor the "preppers" in your OP believe in guns for the sake of going out and committing crimes or being stupid owners at home. That is also over blown imo.

We believe in responsible ownership for the expressed reason of defense. Protection against those who have no respect for you or what is rightfully yours. People who laughed at those who prepared for emergencies but would then like to take from those who prepared.

great post and ITA!

[hatkie]

& those of us who have no need for them don't seem to be wanting to take them away from anyone who does. So why do they have a need to defend having them and see people coming to take them in the shadows while insulting those who live in a different environment?

What I do question is the survivalist who's armed to the teeth waiting for the total downfall of society and planning their defense against the roaming unnamed masses. Sounds a tad paranoid to me.

If they're truly capable, they'd know the Spaghetti Oes are gonna run out and they'd be better served to teach those masses how to provide for themselves before that happens, and therefore have no need to wipe out the masses in their defense of the Spaghetti Oes.

I don't think it's the guns you want to take from them it will be the food/water/medical supplies etc. that they were smart enough to stock up and for which the ones who did not become desperate to steal/take.

[Noah]

Ok, that Fema site says city or county water can be stored with 16 drops (1/4 tsp.)/gallon of standard household bleach added for 6 months and manufactored bottled or distilled water is good for 1 year. Also says can't use milk jugs (due to fat) but any other plastic for beverages is good (soft drink or juice bottles). Good info.

Now all I need is a 55 gallon plastic drum to collect rainwater for bathing/chores.

This is what I do for NON-drinking water. I keep my empty bleach bottles and fill those with water. Put a big "X" on them. I know not to drink it cuz it's in the bleach bottle. I would use it for washing, brushing teeth, etc...

Yes, you can drink water that has bleach in it, but I refuse to keep emptying those bottles, so mine are strictly for non-drinking use.


ETA - if you want to get really serious, save your laundry detergent bottles. There's always soap left in those and by adding water, you'll have a way to do some laundry with a little bit of soap. (Unless you stock laundry soap, which I do when it's on sale).

[daniel green]

Yes, I did notice that, too.

The mindset that everyone is against you, that everyone means you harm, that catastrophe & chaos are just around the corner - I just cannot fathom how a body could stay sane & even semi-rational & have those kinds of beliefs in their head every day.

She's ready to go out & kill her neighbors based on nothing more than the fact that they have knowledge that she is a 'survivalist' - that she stockpiles food & has a big garden. Good grief, what kind of thinking is that?? Her innocent neighbors could be knocking on the door to check on her & her kids, to make sure they were OK & to ask if they needed anything - & she'd be ready to kill them, thinking they were after her food.

Sick, sick, sick.

Good grief, positively WiLLING it to happen.:ohmy: Like looking forward to it. And already hating the folks who allegedly will come to steal their stuff--the lazy ones who didn't prepare.

What a horrific mindset.

[ninetoes]

I don't think it hurts anyone to be prepared for whatever may happen. If society did breakdown etc, I would rather be on the side of those who prepared, than a "roof sitter" waiting for someone else - especially the government to come save me.

Just having supplies stockpiled and saved up could help a family get through months of unemployment if nothing else. If anyone is interested, the Mormons have preached this idea of having supplies for years.

ITA. And I really wouldnt be concerned with others asking me to share, but I would be very concerned with a certain percentage of others who wouldnt want to share, but rather come to take everything I have.

[daniel green]

Sounds like they were reading this part of one of the blogs...

http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/2009/06/survival-pack.html

The Grab And Go Survival Pack

Excerpt...

No matter how well armed or prepared you are, you can be overran by a large enough force, remember Waco? Sometimes escape is the only option, or at least the only one that will keep you alive.

Having a survival pack and avenue of escape makes sense. If you can put some distance between yourself and the threat, there is always the option of a launching a retaliatory strike from a more favorable position.

For example; I have two separate and independent escape routes worked out, both leading to a vantage point 462 yards away over looking my place. If I know I am going to be outnumbered and out gunned, I will grab my survival pack and rifle, making my way to this point.

The range has been marked with a range finder and I have set-up and shot silhouettes positioned around my place, so I know anything in that area is an easy target.

I don't think this person is thinking about how to stay self-sufficient after a flood, loss of electricity, snow or ice storm & the like.

OMG, that is nuts. Just militia in a new dress.

Unreal.

Nope, not at all preparing for a storm.

The only times we have been hit by any long-term loss of water and elctricity, after a hurricaine, the most remarkable thing is how people came together and helped each other. And the remarkable work by organizations such as the Red Cross and the animal rescues.

[Mandysmom]

I mean, for nobody to have them. Period.

If there were no guns, the evil would find something other weapon. I don't fancy being chopped up by machetes or beaten with sticks either.

I would much rather be prepared for disaster than just sit waiting on "help" and then complaining when it didn't arrive faster.

[Mimi428]

OMG, that is nuts. Just militia in a new dress.

Unreal.

Nope, not at all preparing for a storm.

The only times we have been hit by any long-term loss of water and elctricity, after a hurricaine, the most remarkable thing is how people came together and helped each other. And the remarkable work by organizations such as the Red Cross and the animal rescues.

The wikipedia article I was reading last night has a good list of the various groups & descriptions for what motivates different types of survivalists. I had no idea there was such a wide variety of fears, so many different scenarios that folks think have a realistic chance of actually happening.

Here's the list of the scenarios/concerns from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism

I'll start with the ones that are the most general, in the next post I'll get to the ones that I think are pretty bizarre.


Safety Preparedness Oriented - Learns principles and techniques needed for surviving life-threatening situations that can occur anytime or anywhere

Wilderness Survival Emphasis - Stresses being able to stay alive for indefinite periods in life threatening wilderness scenarios.

Self-Defense Driven - Individuals concerned with surviving brief encounters of violent activity.

Natural Disaster, Brief - People that live in tornado, hurricane, flood, wildfire, earthquake or heavy snowfall areas and want to be prepared for the inevitable.

Medical Crisis Oriented - Has very complete medical pack in house and in car. Focus is on helping family, friends and community survive medical emergencies.

Natural Disaster, Years Long - Concerned about long term weather cycles of 2–10 years, unusually cold or warm periods, that have happened on and off for thousands of years, and that cause crop failures.

[Mimi428]

Same link at wikipedia as posted above.

Now for the list of the ones I think are extraordinary side, but which apparently are a realistic concern for some folks.

Natural Disaster, Indefinite/Multi-Generational - Possible scenarios include: severe global warming and the possible ensuing ice age, the greenhouse-effect-gone-wild, environmental degradation, warming/cooling of gulf steam waters, large meteor strike, shift in earth's axis or reversal of geo-magnetic fields.

Bio-Chem Scenario - Concerned with the spread of fatal diseases and terrorist use of biological agents and nerve gases.

Technological Mass Destruction Concerns - Concerned with unintended consequences of genetic manipulation, nano-technology, transgenic crops, psychological engineering, genome hybridized cloning, artificial intelligence, biotechnology, engineered organisms, self-replicating molecular robotic assemblers

Malthusian - Soaring increase in world's uncontrolled human population growth impacts available fresh water, food, health-care, environment, economics, consumerism, spread of diseases and just about every other facet of life.

Monetary Disaster Investors - Believe the Federal Reserve system is fundamentally flawed. They are preparing for paper money to become worthless through hyperinflation.

Biblical Eschatologist - These individuals study End Times prophecy and believe the Saviour is going to return soon, and that the final battle with Satan on the Plains of Meggido might occur in their lifetime.

Peak Oil Doomers - The Doomers are convinced that Peak Oil is a genuine threat, and take appropriate measures, usually involving relocation to a Survival retreat region that is agriculturally self-sufficient

Rawlesian - Followers of James Wesley Rawles, the author of survivalist fiction and non-fiction books. Adherents often prepare for multiple scenarios with fortified and well-equipped remote rural survival retreats.


Aliens and Artificial Intelligence - A number of serious and semi-serious literature has emerged dealing with concepts such as how to survive and defend oneself from an alien invasion or artificial intelligence uprising.

[ninetoes]

I don't own a gun...a bat and several canes, but no gun.

I will say that I support a persons right to arms as long as they are responsible. If we are faced with some tragedy, the scenario about someone coming to your home to pilage can become very real....preparedness is vital IMO




Carry on....:seeya:

We own a few guns.

IMO it doesnt take a tragedy for others to decide they want to come into your home and take what you have, or rape and kill those you love. It happens on a daily basis now. In case of a serious tragedy, it would escalate, IMO. I wouldnt hesitate to shoot, and shoot to kill, anyone who was enadagering my family.

[theal3]

HHS -- to answer your question my lanterns are just coleman battery operated. They use 4 size D batteries and one will light up an average size bedroom as well as 2-60 watt light bulbs. You could read from anywhere in the room. Never had to use them long enough to use up battery power but I know they provide excellent lighting for at least 3 days of continuous use. Much more light than oil lamps but I think I'll get a couple of those for backup.

Ok, that Fema site says city or county water can be stored with 16 drops (1/4 tsp.)/gallon of standard household bleach added for 6 months and manufactored bottled or distilled water is good for 1 year. Also says can't use milk jugs (due to fat) but any other plastic for beverages is good (soft drink or juice bottles). Good info.

Now all I need is a 55 gallon plastic drum to collect rainwater for bathing/chores.


We keep 2 large plastic garbage cans for collecting rain water or periodically filling up; hand when elec. goes out and toilet needs flushing. We have a well. We also put a few gold fish in them to eat any larve that might form from mosquitoes etc.