Pa. pastor shoots, kills son during xmas day fight

[VC2]

I wonder why they haven't charged him yet? yes he intervened in a violent confrontation bw his son and and another woman but...there were a dozen ppl there, surely he could have been overpowered not shot.

A pastor fatally shot one of his eight children on Christmas Day during a dispute at the family home, where more than a dozen relatives had gathered to celebrate the holiday, police said
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34599611/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[Details]

If it was in self defense, or in the defense of another - it may have been necessary. Poor guy, if it was.

[AngelWings]

Wow..very sad..seems the son was going to hurt a woman in the house..I guess they did what they could do.... never intending for tis outcome I am sure :sad:

[LisaM22]

did the pastor try anything first, talk to the man, or just whip out a gun and shot his son in the chest?

[Amy S.]

How awful.

I wonder if the son was known to be violent or had been drinking or something?

What kind of man would abuse a woman in front of his family on Christmas? Plus, his dad is a pastor.

[VC2]

did the pastor try anything first, talk to the man, or just whip out a gun and shot his son in the chest?

well i would think firing into the floor would have worked to stop him enough that some of the other dozen ppl could have gotten him away or her to safety.

abuse against women is abhorrent but that does not mean people should kill their children with others looking on bc of it. You call LE or you try and stop him in non lethal ways long before you kill him.

imo

eta i guess i am thinking that the sympathy for the killer is more bc he was a pastor than bc he should have killed his son. I want abusers in prison, but not dead..or let me say i can understand a woman killing her abuser -including if its at night when he is sleeping bc imo that is the only time she is safe to for most women - that is self defense.

Not so sure i understand a dad killing his son

[VC2]

How awful.

I wonder if the son was known to be violent or had been drinking or something?

What kind of man would abuse a woman in front of his family on Christmas? Plus, his dad is a pastor.

Or the pastor and his son had been drinking?

[Carol25]

I really feel to look at this whole situation realistically, you have to take out the fact the father was a pastor and the person killed was his son. Then just look at the facts.

[VC2]

I really feel to look at this whole situation realistically, you have to take out the fact the father was a pastor and the person killed was his son. Then just look at the facts.

Carol, those are part of the facts though.

To be honest, i wondered if perhaps the apple didn't fall to far from the tree in terms of temper or hair triggers (no pun intended).

I just can't fathom shooting your son in the chest rather than calling LE or wrestling him to the ground with the other men there.

imo

[withay]

Another reason for me to ban guns from my home. If nobody had a gun, they would have found another way to resolve the problem. I am more afraid of something like this happening in my home than I am of someone breaking in.

That does not mean I think all guns should be banned BTW. Just how I feel about them in MY home.

[SaraSidle]

Withay I totally agree

Also Carol25 you're right on. can't use religion,race,financial status or sexual preference to sway you unless it is a hate crime. jmho

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder why they haven't charged him yet? yes he intervened in a violent confrontation bw his son and and another woman but...there were a dozen ppl there, surely he could have been overpowered not shot.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34599611/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

I certainly want to know more on the particulars especially the violent confrontation between the son and the woman. Was the son trying to kill this woman? Was the Pastor the only one in the room at the time? Just because others were in the home doesnt mean they would have been able to subdue the son. Maybe he was holding a knife to the woman's throat or she had already received injuries. The dozen people there could have consisted mostly of females or even children. We just don't know.

But it had to be a drastic situation and very serious for this father to do this imo.

Since he has not been charged as of yet I think I am going to wait until more information is known before I really have a hard opinion one way or the other.

imo

[VC2]

I certainly want to know more on the particulars especially the violent confrontation between the son and the woman. Was the son trying to kill this woman? Was the Pastor the only one in the room at the time? Just because others were in the home doesnt mean they would have been able to subdue the son. Maybe he was holding a knife to the woman's throat or she had already received injuries. The dozen people there could have consisted mostly of females or even children. We just don't know.

But it had to be a drastic situation and very serious for this father to do this imo.

Since he has not been charged as of yet I think I am going to wait until more information is known before I really have a hard opinion one way or the other.

imo

from today:
Meanwhile, the End Times Harvest Mission for Christ pastor is expected to face criminal charges for the shooting.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/12/27/Pastor-accused-of-fatally-shooting-son/UPI-89141261934391/

in another article they said they are waiting for the DA b4 filing the charges, which makes sense given that its unlikely he is a flight risk at the moment.

[Details]

Carol, those are part of the facts though.

To be honest, i wondered if perhaps the apple didn't fall to far from the tree in terms of temper or hair triggers (no pun intended).

I just can't fathom shooting your son in the chest rather than calling LE or wrestling him to the ground with the other men there.

imoWe're short of details about the son. What we know is that LE hasn't taken him into custody. Maybe he had a knife and was about to stab her. Maybe he he was slamming her head into the ground. Maybe he was about to push her off of some ledge. Maybe there was no one close enough to stop him in time.

[Mamie]

well i would think firing into the floor would have worked to stop him enough that some of the other dozen ppl could have gotten him away or her to safety.

abuse against women is abhorrent but that does not mean people should kill their children with others looking on bc of it. You call LE or you try and stop him in non lethal ways long before you kill him.

imo

eta i guess i am thinking that the sympathy for the killer is more bc he was a pastor than bc he should have killed his son. I want abusers in prison, but not dead..or let me say i can understand a woman killing her abuser -including if its at night when he is sleeping bc imo that is the only time she is safe to for most women - that is self defense.

Not so sure i understand a dad killing his son

Yes, I understand what you're saying and agree. Several things come to mind as I try and put myself in this situation, like although I do not condone physically hurting or abusing anyone----man or woman, my first thought is that my son would trump the abuse of the woman in the fact that I would not resort to endangering his life. My second thought is to get other family members right away to help me restrain my son, without the use of ANY gun and then get 9-1-1 on the line, if needed. I'm not an advocate of guns and so many situations where a gun is used, it could have been avoided. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

from today:


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/12/27/Pastor-accused-of-fatally-shooting-son/UPI-89141261934391/

in another article they said they are waiting for the DA b4 filing the charges, which makes sense given that its unlikely he is a flight risk at the moment.


thank you.

imo

[Silk]

Yes, I understand what you're saying and agree. Several things come to mind as I try and put myself in this situation, like although I do not condone physically hurting or abusing anyone----man or woman, my first thought is that my son would trump the abuse of the woman in the fact that I would not resort to endangering his life. My second thought is to get other family members right away to help me restrain my son, without the use of ANY gun and then get 9-1-1 on the line, if needed. I'm not an advocate of guns and so many situations where a gun is used, it could have been avoided. JMO

Without knowing any of the true details as to what exactly took place, imo I would have to assume his own son had a weapon of some sort that was as equally dangerous as the gun that his father got hold of.
Perhaps his son was about to kill the woman he was fighting with.
This is terrible and I'm sure the father is suffering over this. Perhaps he did not intentionally shoot his own son to kill. The gun may have gone off. Manslaughter. Dunno.

[Details]

Him being a pastor doesn't mean anything to me - lots of negative pastors out there. But shooting your own son at Christmas in front of a bunch of witnesses - that sounds like someone forced to it, and someone who really was just protecting another.

We'll see how the facts show up - but that's my initial impression.

[GentleBreeze]

from today:


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/12/27/Pastor-accused-of-fatally-shooting-son/UPI-89141261934391/

in another article they said they are waiting for the DA b4 filing the charges, which makes sense given that its unlikely he is a flight risk at the moment.

Also this is interesting too.

It seems the police chief knows the Pastor. I wonder if this son was known to LE and that is how they knew his father.

Excerpt from the linked article.

Smythe told the Daily News he was surprised by the incident, given his previous meetings with Caldwell, 44.

"I find this is not something I would expect this guy to do," the police chief said.

So this Pastor must have been known as a peaceful man. Even the police chief is surprised. That still makes me think there are things about this particular son that we do not know about.

The confrontation the son had with the woman seemed to have been extremely violent.

imo

[VC2]

Him being a pastor doesn't mean anything to me - lots of negative pastors out there. But shooting your own son at Christmas in front of a bunch of witnesses - that sounds like someone forced to it, and someone who really was just protecting another.

We'll see how the facts show up - but that's my initial impression.

part of my initial response to posts was that i couldn't figure out why all the sympathy for the man who killed his son with so few facts.

Now that there are some more openminded posts i am calmed down on it and want to wait and see :blushing:

However i would need a REALLY good reason for shooting your son. It is just such a huge act that betrays the parental bond to a child, even if the child is 21. We all know they never grow up to parents. That he was in a big fight with his g/f isn't enough, can see so many other ways to handle it without shooting to kill. He had to go get his gun (i assume a pastor would have it in a gun safe) and could have called 911 at the same time. Even if he thought there wasn't time to explain, just leaving the line open and saying help would dispatch cops

imo

[AJandTam]

My big question is, where was the gun when trouble started. Seems odd the father had a gun handy to shoot him w/ . Like GB, I think we need more details here.

[Carol25]

Evidentally the dispute was between his son and his girlfriend.

http://domesticviolencenews.blogspot.com/2009/12/darby-pa-philadelphia-pastor-shoots-son.html

[LisaM22]

Evidentally the dispute was between his son and his girlfriend.

http://domesticviolencenews.blogspot.com/2009/12/darby-pa-philadelphia-pastor-shoots-son.html

thanks for the link, crazy

[aubrey04]

Definitely need more details before I can judge this one. It depends on how aggressive and violent the son was being, imo. Also wonder if the son had a history of mental illness and/or violent tendencies.

Very sad case. :(

[2Hope4]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/80324852.html

Pastor held in $2M bail in slaying of his son



After firing the first gunshot of his life on Christmas Day into his son's chest, pastor Kirk Caldwell dropped to the ground and cradled his 21-year-old child's dying body, according to court documents.

In the moments before the shooting, Caldwell's son, Jordan, had been brandishing a knife and hitting and throwing family members - including his father - around during a Christmas gathering of 15 to 18 people at the Caldwell home in Darby Borough, police and court documents said.



Very sad case indeed! Oh I pray for this family. :crying:

[Details]

Such a horrible case - and the first time firing a gun - I suppose they have to let the justice system evaluate this, but by me, I'd say let it go now. He was protecting others and had no choice.

I'm glad they gave him bail (normally unavailable for this offense) - recognizing that this is not a normal situation.

[annalyzer]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/80324852.html







Very sad case indeed! Oh I pray for this family. :crying:

from above link ~ In the moments before the shooting, Caldwell's son, Jordan, had been brandishing a knife and hitting and throwing family members - including his father - around during a Christmas gathering of 15 to 18 people at the Caldwell home in Darby Borough, police and court documents said.

Did anyone call 911 while all this hitting and throwing around was going on? Was anyone hospitalized for injuries because of all this hitting and shoving around? If no one called 911 I'd like to know why.

[doctor_J]

Why take a gun to a knife fight? If only 1/3 of the people there were adults, that still leaves 4 or 5 adults to subdue this guy while waiting for 911. Tragic. Wonder if there had been no gun in the house, if everyone wouldn't still be alive, and the boy could be arrested or get mental help, whatever was needed. Just the immediate availibility of a handgun has destroyed this family. On the other hand, it might have saved the girl's life. Just can't see how the gun made a bad situation better.

[samEgiG]

Why take a gun to a knife fight? If only 1/3 of the people there were adults, that still leaves 4 or 5 adults to subdue this guy while waiting for 911. Tragic. Wonder if there had been no gun in the house, if everyone wouldn't still be alive, and the boy could be arrested or get mental help, whatever was needed. Just the immediate availibility of a handgun has destroyed this family. On the other hand, it might have saved the girl's life. Just can't see how the gun made a bad situation better.

No, the violent, out of control behavior of a 21 year old adult did that. Let's put the blame where it belongs.

[GentleBreeze]

No, the violent, out of control behavior of a 21 year old adult did that. Let's put the blame where it belongs.

Exactly.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Why take a gun to a knife fight? If only 1/3 of the people there were adults, that still leaves 4 or 5 adults to subdue this guy while waiting for 911. Tragic. Wonder if there had been no gun in the house, if everyone wouldn't still be alive, and the boy could be arrested or get mental help, whatever was needed. Just the immediate availability of a handgun has destroyed this family. On the other hand, it might have saved the girl's life. Just can't see how the gun made a bad situation better.

Because a knife being wielded close up can be just as lethal as a firearm.

Since the 21 year old seemed to be attacking so many there I would think they were trying thier best to evade the perp instead of standing there to call 911 while the chaos was going on.

Imo, this father did not want to shoot his out of control enraged son but he just would not stop his violence.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Such a horrible case - and the first time firing a gun - I suppose they have to let the justice system evaluate this, but by me, I'd say let it go now. He was protecting others and had no choice.

I'm glad they gave him bail (normally unavailable for this offense) - recognizing that this is not a normal situation.

I was glad to see that too Details.

The Police Chief said he knew Pastor Caldwell and was very surprised to see him involved in something like this. That makes me think that the Pastor is known as a very peaceful man in his community and I hope they continue to support him.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder why they haven't charged him yet? yes he intervened in a violent confrontation bw his son and and another woman but...there were a dozen ppl there, surely he could have been overpowered not shot.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34599611/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Excerpt:

Police Chief Smythe, who noted he had met Caldwell a couple of times, called the pastor a "very good man" and said he was "quite surprised."

"I find this is not something I would expect this guy to do," Smythe said.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/80324852.html







Very sad case indeed! Oh I pray for this family. :crying:

The 21 year old must have been completely out of control.

From the article you linked.

"When Caldwell got downstairs, he saw his son "punching, hitting and throwing other family members around the house," court documents said.

Caldwell tried to calm Jordan down, but instead, Jordan threw him to the floor, a move which he believed may have broken or dislocated his shoulder, he told police."

And Pastor Caldwell had eight children and the rest were all younger. This was his oldest son.

[Details]

Why take a gun to a knife fight? If only 1/3 of the people there were adults, that still leaves 4 or 5 adults to subdue this guy while waiting for 911. Tragic. Wonder if there had been no gun in the house, if everyone wouldn't still be alive, and the boy could be arrested or get mental help, whatever was needed. Just the immediate availibility of a handgun has destroyed this family. On the other hand, it might have saved the girl's life. Just can't see how the gun made a bad situation better.You take a gun to a knife fight to END the fight. Take a knife - and the other guy figures he can take you - and you'll both get cut up, the odds of either or both of you dying is quite high.

You point a gun, because normally people with a gun pointing at them STOP. Normally, the other person would set the knife down.

4-5 adults, versus one crazed adult swinging a knife - many people will be badly hurt, likely some very permanent, very bad injuries - lose an eye, get stabbed in the heart, cut artery that causes a bleed out - this is not an easy thing - especially while protecting all the children in the house.

If I had a gun in that situation, even having never fired one, I'd bring it out.

[VC2]

You take a gun to a knife fight to END the fight. Take a knife - and the other guy figures he can take you - and you'll both get cut up, the odds of either or both of you dying is quite high.

You point a gun, because normally people with a gun pointing at them STOP. Normally, the other person would set the knife down.

4-5 adults, versus one crazed adult swinging a knife - many people will be badly hurt, likely some very permanent, very bad injuries - lose an eye, get stabbed in the heart, cut artery that causes a bleed out - this is not an easy thing - especially while protecting all the children in the house.

If I had a gun in that situation, even having never fired one, I'd bring it out.

Details, i would not. I would have called 911. The son was on the front porch, people were in the house and outside it. the pastor even went back inside to get out of his pyjamas and didn't call 911 then, instead he got his gun.

It seems the knife was not in the sons hand from the link, he only reached into his pocket when the dad shot him, so he was not attacking people with it.

This was not just self defense imo, unless the DA and LE have a hate on for this pastor or issues with him, i am surprised they charged 1st degree for something that some might see at first glance as self defense. If it was a clear case of self defense i think they would have gone with 2nd degree or even manslaughter as the highest charge.

the fact he was given the opportunity to make bail, well i really don't see it as much of an opportunity unless he has a megachurch. 2 million dollars bail is the sort of bail that child rapists and murderers are given, something totally out of their ability to raise. I just don't understand why the judge bothered unless it was a hail mary given his non violent past and definitely not a danger to the community based on the events per se.

There is something about this that is more than just a violent 21 year old. He wasn't even still attacking his girlfriend, she was sitting down crying. I think the dad totally over reached, shooting your son like this was the worst decision of all.

Now he is sitting in jail rotting, his 8 children have no one to provide for them (ok making an assumption here, with that many kids normally mom is stay at home), his family is destroyed and he has to live with killing his child.

I just don't think the DA would have overcharged in this case do you? or since i am vehemently against the common practice of overcharging to try and get a plea deal-to me it goes against all ethics of the bar, charging a crime for any reason than they committed it, especially one they dont believe they will get a conviction on- then the DA should be sanctioned and recalled plus lose his license to practice law.

IMO

eta i expected to hear that he was charged with manslaughter or 2d degree at most, given a reasonable bail so he could go home and help his family deal with this, especially his other kids and then some sort of plea worked out that ended up a self defense with a minimum amount of time as a sentence.

Which is why the first degree murder charge is a surprise.

[Details]

It says he was punching, hitting, and throwing people around the house - doesn't sound like the porch. And when the pastor went to his room, after being hit hard enough he thought his shoulder was dislocated, he heard people saying his son had a knife. Good enough reason to believe that to be true.

911 - when someone is swinging a knife - it's not fast enough.

There are many witnesses - if it wasn't self defense, that will easily come out in trial. To me - it sounds like it was. The poor guy never fired a gun before! He preached nonviolence. He lived it, from all accounts, even by the police. To have someone like that shoot, and his own son - I don't think this was any easy situation, I don't think it was anything but self defense.

It does sound overcharged - not sure if that is just to keep all their options open, or to pressure for a plea deal.

[doctor_J]

VC2, although we frequently disagree on situations that require compassion (you have more than I do), we agree on this one. As you can see, I got blasted pretty good by stating that the immediate availability of a gun destroyed this family and that I couldn't see how the gun made this bad situation better. Heck, why not leave the house to the out of control young man till help arrived? I've not seen one report of a single cut on anyone much less arteries spurting and lives at risk. One report said he "brandished" a knife. That only means he pulled one threateningly. Not that he was holding on to anyone's neck or even trying to cut anyone. Doesn't even mean it wasn't a closed pocket knife.

I don't believe for a minute they would have charged him for murder if it could have been self defense. After all, he had no record and was a respected minister. There's something wrong with this situation that we don't know. All those adults could have avoided/subdued the man long enough to get 911 there. It was a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Now a 21 yr. old is dead. Was he chemically impaired or mentally ill? We don't know. Are 8 kids without a father-- yes, maybe forever. Domestic violence more often results in a death if a handgun if available.

I was raised in a gun culture and it's such a hot button issue it can't be discussed rationally here. But sooner or later, America is going to have to realize what older civilazations have known for years. Handguns have no place in a civililized nation. We value the "right to bear arms" ANY and ALL arms, more than we value human life.

[Mamie]

I have to believe that there were more than a couple of adults there, if not older teenagers, so why didn't someone rush the son from behind, atleast knock him off his feet and then a couple or three (whatever it took) adults could keep him contained while 9-1-1 was called. DoctorJ said it best, but I also believe that guns are too often with the wrong people. If this pastor had never fired a gun before, what was he doing with a gun? Is it common for people who don't have ANY experience with guns to actually keep them in their homes? I'm asking, I don't know the answer to this last question. JMO

P.S. Absolutely no excuse for 9-1-1 not being called.

[R~O~S]

I have to believe that there were more than a couple of adults there, if not older teenagers, so why didn't someone rush the son from behind, atleast knock him off his feet and then a couple or three (whatever it took) adults could keep him contained while 9-1-1 was called. DoctorJ said it best, but I also believe that guns are too often with the wrong people. If this pastor had never fired a gun before, what was he doing with a gun? Is it common for people who don't have ANY experience with guns to actually keep them in their homes? I'm asking, I don't know the answer to this last question. JMO

P.S. Absolutely no excuse for 9-1-1 not being called.

Unfortunately yes! Although we now require a three day waiting period and a criminal background check before a hand gun can be purchased, we do not require the buyer take any training or safety courses. There is no requirement they be trained in firearms use at all.

You can walk into any sporting goods store, or Walmart, purchase a rifle and walk out with it same day. What are the requirements? You have to sign a piece of paper stating you meet the legal requirements to own a rifle.

If we actually required people be qualified to handle a hand gun before we let them take possession of it, we'd save a lot of children yearly who "found" a loaded gun in grandma's bedside table as well as those who had their own gun turned on them when they realized they really weren't prepared to kill another human being and then there are the ones that simply end up dead because a gun was handy and talk takes time and effort.

I have to believe this young man wouldn't be dead and this father wouldn't be facing charges if dad knew rule #1, never point a gun at anything you don't intend to kill.

[Carol25]

Just wondering...The pastor is entertaining 15-18 people. But when the ruckus starts, he goes to get dressed. How many of you entertain in your pajamas?

Why 911 wasn't called when this fellow started throwing people around is beyond me. Mosty everyone has a cell phone.

If I had eight children, the last thing I would have in my house is a gun. Just me.

It really sounds like this boy was out of control and possibly under the influence of drugs. I think that is a good guess.

I think the pastor had other alternatives available to him than shooting. I just wonder what his relationship with his son was like. Did the son ever threaten the father and the pastor was sure the son was actually after him?

I would certainly charge the pastor and it would be for murder if he was not being approached at the time of the shooting.

Taking the time to change his clothes and get his gun just doesn't sound right to me. He had plenty of time to cal 911 but made a conscious decision not to.

[Amy]

I have to believe that there were more than a couple of adults there, if not older teenagers, so why didn't someone rush the son from behind, atleast knock him off his feet and then a couple or three (whatever it took) adults could keep him contained while 9-1-1 was called. DoctorJ said it best, but I also believe that guns are too often with the wrong people. If this pastor had never fired a gun before, what was he doing with a gun? Is it common for people who don't have ANY experience with guns to actually keep them in their homes? I'm asking, I don't know the answer to this last question. JMO

P.S. Absolutely no excuse for 9-1-1 not being called.

I think that is what is most puzzling to me. Even if half the people were teenagers, it only takes one person to call 911. When attacker was in one room, someone could have been in another and make the call w/out the attacker knowing (which might have irritated him more.) Heck, there are few teens these days w/out cell phones, let alone adults. I would imagine any number of people would have had a cell phone, and can't imagine why someone did not make the 911 call?

I suppose a 911 call could have been made (or even several) and the dad tho't the situation was too out of control and LE wasn't there. Altho, I would also imagine that IF there had been a 911 call, that would have been reported. We'd already have the transcript and audio copy of the call, IMO.

[Mamie]

I sure wish we'd hear more on this story!

[GentleBreeze]

One charge dropped vs. pastor

County prosecutors have dropped a first-degree murder charge against a Philadelphia pastor accused of shooting his son on Christmas Day. The action was in exchange for, among other conditions, the man's waiver of his preliminary hearing yesterday.

Kirk Caldwell still faces charges of third-degree murder, voluntary manslaughter and related offenses. Caldwell, 43, a pastor at the End Times Harvest Mission, in West Oak Lane, is accused of shooting his 21-year-old son, Jordan, at the family's Darby Borough home after Jordan Caldwell allegedly fought with family members and brandished a knife.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/82873837.html

If he pleas to voluntary manslaughter he could be given probation. It seems the Pastor has no criminal record before this.

imo

[Details]

Wow - down from first to third degree murder - the prosecutor must not be finding much of anything on this case.