12/16/09 thru 2/28/10

[aproudmom]

I'm curious as I haven't been following the threads through this long trial. But the verdict is in and Amanda and Raffaele have been convicted. What is your opinion? Was justice done? After voting, please elaborate.

Yes, justice was done and they are guilty

[Emerald]

Rudy Guede's appeal decision is expected @ 20Dec.

[dgfred]

He better spill ALL the beans this time. :angry:

[dgfred]

Hey Emerald,
The thread was closed before you could answer my question about why you still have doubts about RS's involvement. Could you do so now?

[Emerald]

I don't know what it is, dgfred. Just not convinced RS is guilty.

I don't have any problem believing the evidence that Amanda Knox is guilty....guilty....guilty.

Perception is everything.

[dgfred]

I don't know what it is, dgfred. Just not convinced RS is guilty.

I don't have any problem believing the evidence that Amanda Knox is guilty....guilty....guilty.

Perception is everything.

OK I understand pal. The confusion/questions/unexplained and my total disbelief is what drew me to the case in the first place :confused: .

[Emerald]

After the trial, RS made a comment that Amanda was not capable of committing such heinous crimes. (my words, not a direct quote). How would he know? RS knew AK fo only 6 days before the crimes against Meredith Kercher.

Watching the way the Amanda Knox Family has acted, it's really not such a leap to believe she feels the entitlement to take whatever she wants. Even a human life. The Family is spending every cent they have and more, plus every penny they can beg through donations and questionable media appearances. AK could put a stop to it, but doesn't. Entitlement.

[uplate]

I don't know what it is, dgfred. Just not convinced RS is guilty.

I don't have any problem believing the evidence that Amanda Knox is guilty....guilty....guilty.

Perception is everything.IMO they are all involved but to what degrees I'm unsure. I still wonder why Rudy puts the knife in Raff's hand and has Amanda present but not in the room, if that is not the way it went down.

I do believe Rudy about there being a row about Meredith's rent money. One of those incidences of truth being inserted into a pack of lies.

[dgfred]

Both their reactions to the knife evidence (new lies) was very telling to me. An innocent person would not just pull a story out of the sky to try to explain it away.

[Kip]

Both their reactions to the knife evidence (new lies) was very telling to me. An innocent person would not just pull a story out of the sky to try to explain it away.

Exactly. If I were innocent and in RS's position, and told that Meredith's blood was found on my knife, my first response would have been, "That's impossible. Meredith has never been to my apartment. The test results must be wrong." My second reaction would have been the thought, "My God, if Meredith's DNA is there, Amanda must have taken the knife to the cottage" -- with the subsequent thoughts that Amanda must have been involved and may be trying to set me up.

Never in a million years would I have said that Meredith's blood got on the knife when she was over for dinner and I accidentally pricked her while cooking. I have been cooking for 40 years and have never hurt anyone (other than myself) with a knife while doing so.

By telling that lie (Meredith never went to Rafaello's for dinner) to explain how the blood got there, Rafaello acknowledges that he's not surprised that MK's blood is on his knife.

[Malkmus]

Both their reactions to the knife evidence (new lies) was very telling to me. An innocent person would not just pull a story out of the sky to try to explain it away.

I think Amanda's reaction to the knife makes sense:

Do you remember, on the 17th of November, having spoken with your mother
about the knife?

I talked with my mother about everything, so...

Yes?

Yes.

You told your mother that you were very worried.

I didn't understand why there would be Meredith's blood on a knife that was
found in Raffaele's house. Because [tense laugh] for me that was impossible.

[Presidente: "Excuse me, but with respect to the knife, which knife did they
talk about? I saw that it remained a little general." "Because she--
oh, no, sorry, Presidente." "Yes? Which knife did they talk about?"]

We were talking about a knife that had Meredith's blood...on this knife. And
for me, I couldn't understand it because it was impossible.

[Presidente: "Reference to that knife. Please go ahead, avvocato."]

Why did you say to your mother "I'm worried because there is a knife of
Raffaele's."

Well, I was worried because to me that was impossible. I didn't understand
how that could be.

As far as Raphalle's claim that he cut Meredith while cooking I do believe it rings as suspicious. However, I get the feeling again that, as with Amanda, we have gotten out-of-context quotes on this matter. Do we know that that was Raphaelle's first response to the knife? I've seen the quote where he says it happened while cooking but i have yet to see it in the context of the rest of his statement. It's possible that repeatedly faced with a piece of evidence that police claimed was irrefutable he had to come up with an explanation of perhaps "how" her DNA could have gotten on the knife and had to stick with that story (considering he'll need to repeat that story for his appeal).

I'm not saying that's what he said, but until I see his FULL explanation of the knife and not just a one-line quote I have to have some doubts about it.

I do believe, like most of you, that if he is firmly stating he cut Meredith's finger (and that he wasn't simply hypothesizing) then that is most likely a lie. But, whether it was fabricated because he is a killer or because it was his only way of explaining evidence presented in court as undeniable fact is the question.

On the subject of the knife in general... I do find it odd that it being a knife belonging to Raphaelle, kept in his apartment, that his own DNA was not found on it. Just sayin'...

[GossipGirl]

Did that knife actually kill Meredith, or perhaps AK and/or RS simply picked it up after the fact, back at RS's apt, and transferred the mixture of AK and MK's blood?
How did her blood get into that mix and then on the knife found in his apt? That is the question.
I think all 3 were involved, at the behest of AK moreso than either of the other 2, and they're where they belong.
GG

[dgfred]

I think Amanda's reaction to the knife makes sense:

Do you remember, on the 17th of November, having spoken with your mother
about the knife?

I talked with my mother about everything, so...

Yes?

Yes.

You told your mother that you were very worried.

I didn't understand why there would be Meredith's blood on a knife that was
found in Raffaele's house. Because [tense laugh] for me that was impossible.

[Presidente: "Excuse me, but with respect to the knife, which knife did they
talk about? I saw that it remained a little general." "Because she--
oh, no, sorry, Presidente." "Yes? Which knife did they talk about?"]

We were talking about a knife that had Meredith's blood...on this knife. And
for me, I couldn't understand it because it was impossible.

[Presidente: "Reference to that knife. Please go ahead, avvocato."]

Why did you say to your mother "I'm worried because there is a knife of
Raffaele's."

Well, I was worried because to me that was impossible. I didn't understand
how that could be.

As far as Raphalle's claim that he cut Meredith while cooking I do believe it rings as suspicious. However, I get the feeling again that, as with Amanda, we have gotten out-of-context quotes on this matter. Do we know that that was Raphaelle's first response to the knife? I've seen the quote where he says it happened while cooking but i have yet to see it in the context of the rest of his statement. It's possible that repeatedly faced with a piece of evidence that police claimed was irrefutable he had to come up with an explanation of perhaps "how" her DNA could have gotten on the knife and had to stick with that story (considering he'll need to repeat that story for his appeal).

I'm not saying that's what he said, but until I see his FULL explanation of the knife and not just a one-line quote I have to have some doubts about it.

I do believe, like most of you, that if he is firmly stating he cut Meredith's finger (and that he wasn't simply hypothesizing) then that is most likely a lie. But, whether it was fabricated because he is a killer or because it was his only way of explaining evidence presented in court as undeniable fact is the question.

On the subject of the knife in general... I do find it odd that it being a knife belonging to Raphaelle, kept in his apartment, that his own DNA was not found on it. Just sayin'...

Even if presented in court as fact... don't make up a story (lie) to fit the evidence- just claim it CAN NOT BE SO and stick with that.

I believe the evidence on the knife was left after a thorough (almost) cleaning by AK.

[Malkmus]

Did that knife actually kill Meredith, or perhaps AK and/or RS simply picked it up after the fact, back at RS's apt, and transferred the mixture of AK and MK's blood?
How did her blood get into that mix and then on the knife found in his apt? That is the question.
I think all 3 were involved, at the behest of AK moreso than either of the other 2, and they're where they belong.
GG

Just to clarify, GG, there was no blood found on the knife in Sollecito's apartment. It was a very small amount of DNA which is the heart of the controversy over whether contamination occurred during the retrieval and testing of evidence. Much has been written about the open letter signed by nine DNA experts in the US who reviewed the results of the DNA testing done to the knife. For example:

To minimise the risk that some peaks arise from contamination, most US labs only count peaks above a height threshold of 150 relative fluorescence units (RFUs) and all dismiss those below 50. The trouble with the DNA found on the knife is that "most of the peaks are below 50", says Greg Hampikian of Boise State University in Idaho, who signed the letter and reviewed the DNA evidence.

and

What's more, a sensitive chemical test for blood on the knife was negative, and it is unlikely that all chemically detectable traces of blood could be removed from the knife while retaining sufficient cells to produce a DNA profile. "No credible scientific evidence has been presented to associate this kitchen knife with the murder of Meredith Kercher," the letter concludes.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427373.600-knox-murder-trial-evidence-flawed-say-dna-experts.html

And the following article written in 1995 about Low Count Number DNA testing states this (which explains how contamination could occur):

For example, suppose evidence item #1 has little to no DNA or has DNA degraded beyond the ability to function in a PCR. Suppose further that item #2 is a defendants reference blood stain that would typically have a high concentration of undegraded genomic DNA from the defendant. If item #2 comes in close proximity with item #1, or comes in contact with item #1, the genomic DNA from item #2 may contaminate item #1. Subsequent DNA typing of contaminated item #1 will give the false impression that the defendant contributed DNA to item #1 during a crime. Similarly, when there are multiple items of evidence with some having larger amounts of DNA and some much lower, cross-contamination is an important consideration.

http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/riley/riley.html

[Malkmus]

Whoops, meant to say that last article on LCN DNA testing was written in 2005, not 1995 - which would have been impossible since it was started in 1999.

[Emerald]

Sollecito's dna was not on the knife found in his home, was it? Just Meredith and Amanda.

Pretty damning evidence. That mystical dna. Sounds like an old blues song.

[dgfred]

While the knife evidence is damning imo, that piled with the abundant 'other' evidence of their guilt makes a very strong case.

I don't necessarily base their guilt on AK's and MK's DNA on the knife, more so with their reactions to it.

*RS claims he pricked MK's hand while cooking.
*AK claims 'maybe RS put the knife in my hand while I was sleeping'.

[Emerald]

On appeal, Rudy Guede's sentence was reduced to 16 years.

[Emerald]

On appeal, Rudy Guede's sentence was reduced to 16 years.

I think this had something to do with the 'Fast Track' option. Allowing the case to be heard by judges instead of a full trial.

If that's the case, RS/AK will jhave their sentences upheld.

AK is guilty....guilty....guilty. Her sentence was too light.

I'm still undecided about RS's role in the crime. Believe he is hiding something, just can't quite figurre what it is.

JMO

[uplate]

I think this had something to do with the 'Fast Track' option. Allowing the case to be heard by judges instead of a full trial.

If that's the case, RS/AK will jhave their sentences upheld.

AK is guilty....guilty....guilty. Her sentence was too light.

I'm still undecided about RS's role in the crime. Believe he is hiding something, just can't quite figurre what it is.
JMOCorrect, Rudy was entitled to a reduced sentence, 1/3, because of the fast track.

Regarding Amanda...why do you suppose Rudy did not implicate her more than he did (she was in the house but not in the room, I saw a silhouette of Amanda)? Why would he protect Amanda, unless he is telling the truth as much as he knows it. A big part of me believes his "I was in the bathroom" story.. If he was in on a premed plan by AK/RS to scare/humiliate Mez, he could have said so and say that he backed out and went to the bathroom etc.

Regarding Raff...Rudy puts the knife in his hand. Was there a different Italian guy with brown hair (Rudy's original description since he didn't know Raff)? What are the odds that it was a different guy, and Amanda is letting Raff take the rap by keeping silent.

[Xainia]

Sollecito's dna was not on the knife found in his home, was it? Just Meredith and Amanda.

Pretty damning evidence. That mystical dna. Sounds like an old blues song.

Add to that Sollecito came out with his story about nicking Meredith while cooking as the reason the dna was on the knife.

If innocent he would have said there could be no DNA as the knife had never been near Meridith.

[Emerald]

So Knox killed her roommate because she said Knox was messy. Sure, why not?

Reminds me of the Monty Python skit where the kitchen worker was about to decapitate a restaurant patron because he mentioned that his fork was a bit dirty.

Although I guess it's not saying much, all in all I'd say the prosecutor's original story that the crime was a ritualistic reenactment of a comic book made a bit more sense.


Who said that's why Amanda was involved in the crimes against Meredith?

IMO, it was a hazing/prank gone bad. Organized by Amanda.

Amanda needs to be held accountable. She's right where she belongs.

[Emerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pfl4g#p005qbqm

This is an interesting lengthy interview with Edda Mellas. The first complete one since the verdict.

I listened. Edda Mellas is a either in serious denial or a blatant liar. At the very end, the host indicates that calls and e-mails during the interview are overwhelmingly against the fact that EM is even being given a platform to speak about a convicted/sentenced killer.

As long as they do interviews, IMO, I have a right to judge and critique.

JMO

[Nile]

On appeal, Rudy Guede's sentence was reduced to 16 years.

The sole rapist and murderer in this case is Rudy Guede. His DNA was found inside the victim, on the victim and in the toilet. His handprints and footprints were found all over the crime scene.

No forensic evidence links Amanda Knox to the crime scene and there is no motive for her to have killed her roommate whom she got along with (according to their emails and the fact that they went to a festival together the week before).

I don't believe that Rudy should have had any of his sentence reduced since he viciously raped and murdered an innocent young woman. That's an insult and a slap in the face to the family of Meredith Kercher.

It isn't justice to convict 2 people of a crime without any actual evidence or motive linking them to the crime and then to sentence the actual rapist and murderer to only 16 years imprisonment. Rudy will be free by the time he's 36 years old to rape and murder again. Great justice system :thumbdown:

Maybe all you "True Justice" members can invite poor little Rudy to stay with you (when he's released) since you're SO sure that it was Amanda who led this crime. I'm sure that Rudy will need a place to stay. Put your money where you mouth is.

[Emerald]

Raffaele has been convicted. Rudy, too.

Amanda is a murderer. Oh! And then there's that problem she has for lying about Patrick Lumumba. That little oopsie caused a man to be arrested, spend time being interrogated, ultimately losing his livelihood. All the while, neither Amanda nor her Mother Edda corrected the lie.

Rudy's sentence was set at 24 years, reduced by 1/3 beause of selecting the 'fast track'.

I have no sympathy for the amount of $$$ AK's family has wasted on Amanda. It could have all been saved with the same outcome in a 'fast track' trial. Same condemning evidence would have been presented. Amanda could have put a stop to the $$$ drain. She chose not to. Still doesn't

The only difference would have been a sentence reduced by 1/3 as is customary in the 'fast track' process.

[dgfred]

So all their sentences were basically in line. AK (26yrs) RS (25) and RG (24-8= 16). AK is probably smacking her own head again knowing a fast track trial worked quite well for RG.

[Endymion]

The sole rapist and murderer in this case is Rudy Guede. His DNA was found inside the victim, on the victim and in the toilet. His handprints and footprints were found all over the crime scene.

No forensic evidence links Amanda Knox to the crime scene and there is no motive for her to have killed her roommate whom she got along with (according to their emails and the fact that they went to a festival together the week before).

I don't believe that Rudy should have had any of his sentence reduced since he viciously raped and murdered an innocent young woman. That's an insult and a slap in the face to the family of Meredith Kercher.

It isn't justice to convict 2 people of a crime without any actual evidence or motive linking them to the crime and then to sentence the actual rapist and murderer to only 16 years imprisonment. Rudy will be free by the time he's 36 years old to rape and murder again. Great justice system :thumbdown:

Maybe all you "True Justice" members can invite poor little Rudy to stay with you (when he's released) since you're SO sure that it was Amanda who led this crime. I'm sure that Rudy will need a place to stay. Put your money where you mouth is.

Hear, hear.

[Nile]

Originally posted by Michael: “Except all the evidence proves completely the opposite. And corrections: None of Rudy's DNA was on Meredith. Rudy was not alone in leaving forensic evidence in both Meredith's room and the cottage.”




Nile's reply: No, just as I’ve written, all the forensic evidence (DNA and hand and footprints) links Rudy Guede to the crime scene.

In regards to Rudy’s DNA being on Meredith, several sources (including Timesonline.com and Wikipedia.com) mentioned that Rudy Guede’s DNA was found not only inside Meredith’s body but also ON her body.

There was NO forensic evidence linking either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito to the crime scene (Meredith’s bedroom). Of course there would be evidence of Amanda and her boyfriend Raffaele in other parts of Amanda’s cottage since she lives there.:confused:



Originally posted by Michael: “There's plenty of evidence of both Amanda and Raffaele at the crime scene. Endlessly repeating there isn't any like a mantra doesn't make it go away. The fact they went to a festival together proves nothing. There is no motive in 'your' opinion. It doesn't make it so. Motive is not required for a murder conviction in any case. So, it's irrelevant.”




Nile's reply:There’s NO legitimate evidence linking Amanda or Raffaele to the crime scene. What kind of evidence are you talking about…having fairy wings and floating at the scene of the crime so as to not leave any DNA??:confused:

Endlessly repeating that “there is evidence’ like a mantra doesn’t make it appear.

Motive is not required for a murder conviction but in this case with NO legitimate forensic evidence linking either Amanda or Raffaele to the crime scene, there would have to be a legitimate motive for them to even be connected to this crime.




Originally posted by Michael: “He got the same sentence as Amanda and Raffaele. Sounds fair to me. And maybe you should let the Kercher's decide what is desirable to them instead of announcing how they 'should' feel about it.”



Nile's reply: As I stated before, unlike Amanda and Raffaele, Rudy Guede’s DNA was found inside the victim, on the victim and in the toilet. His handprints and footprints were found all over the crime scene. This is legitimate proof that Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher. As the proven murderer of Meredith Kercher he should have been incarcerated for life so that he can’t sexually assault and murder anyone else again. No such evidence exists against Amanda and Raffaele so they shouldn’t even be in prison.

Anyone would assume that a family would be upset when the proven murderer of their daughter has his sentence reduced. To say or guess otherwise is ridiculous. :confused:



Originally posted by Michael: “They were convicted BY the evidence. It was overwhelming. As for the 'rape', there was no rape. It was sexual assault and Raffaele and Amanda held her and threatened her with knives so Guede could do it. They're as guilty as he is.”



Nile's reply: Again, there was NO legitimate evidence linking Amanda or Raffaele to the crime scene. List all the legitimate overwhelming evidence that you have and it can easily be negated by forensics and common sense.

I understand that Meredith was sexually assaulted, but it makes even less sense for Amanda and Raffaele to have been needed to hold her down in this situation. Very, very uncommon just like the fairy tale satanic cults that Prosecutor Mignini speaks of again and again.



Originally posted by Michael: “Sure, provided you agree to take Amanda and Raffaele into your spare bedroom.”



Nile's reply: I would be happy to let either Amanda or Raffaele stay in one of my spare bedrooms. Unlike Rudy Guede, there is no legitimate forensic evidence linking them to the crime and there is no violence or criminal activity in their past. They both appear to be calm, nice and intelligent people whom anyone could trust.

[Emerald]

The Amanda Knox Family insists not one scintilla of Amanda's dna was found in that room.

Very strange, since the lamp from Amanda's room was found in the crime scene. It was behind the locked door, but plugged outside the room.

The lamp was taken, but nothing else was disturbed in Amanda's room?

Amanda is guilty of the crimes for which she has been tried and sentenced.

[GossipGirl]

Why is it that Michael posts this laundry list of facts that I never can fully remember? What's the truth on the DNA stuff he and Niles are talking about?
I have always believed AK and RS were involved in this crime, their actions before and after are the main reason coupled with what appears to be AK's personal issues with MK. I believe it is AK who is behind this whole thing, and I think it was some sort of scare-tactic prank that went awry, or a potential assault that went haywire.
I'm not really sure.
If I try and put myself in the mindset of AK, which is impossible, all I can come up with (and I don't have the facts down in my head on this case like I did for Melanie McGuire, the Suitcase Murderer) is that AK was either jealous or whatever of Meredith and, if Guede is now to be believed that this was about money, then I assume Amanda owed Meredith, not the other way around.
Maybe try and scare her so she moves out?? Rob her or stage a robbery at the cottage? have Guede scare her by assaulting her?

Did she put up a fight that required AK and RS to come to Guede's assistance? Were they outside the whole time? Did they all go in together and do Meredith in? I don't think so. But I heard MK was into karate or jujitsu or whatever and would have been physically able to hold her own at least for a little while, so it makes sense that Guede ran a risk of being found out (maybe she pulled a cap off his face, or something and could then identify him?), or was found out, and called out a window for his two cronies to come and help?

It appears Guede left the cottage and then the clean-up and robbery staging began. One cannot really dispute that broken glass being on top of the tossed room's contents, while it would naturally be underneath after the window was broken to allow the theif in had it occured before the tossing.
So, if Guede left and the other two did the rest, then AK being at a shop to buy bleach and cleaning supplies early the next morning makes sense to me.
I believe they attempted to clean up any DNA or whatever that they could on the stuff they touched. They left enough of Guede's DNA around to ultimately let him take the fall if necessary, and he seems to have been dumb enough to be taken in by them. I think he left the cottage, the other two then set him up.

Their behavior after the crime is very telling to me. I find murderer's are forever slipping up in this area, they really can't keep their glee to themselves.
I think they felt Guede would be blamed, and sending the police in Patrick's direction was because AK was mad at him for something. Just a little payback.
You can pick these people out of a crowd after awhile. There's something lacking in them, something like a soul.
A missing piece.
Ever watch Dexter?

GG

[onlykaty]

I honestly don't know much about their judicial system, so there for I don't know what to think..From what I do know I won't condemn anyone at this point. I don't say that lightly either. Its a gutt feeling for me that we have had the wool pulled over our eyes. Maybe I'm the one that is wrong and the wool was pulled over my eyes. I just can't say 100& that Amanda is guilty. Thats just me...:moo..

[Emerald]

Evidence is evidence. No matter if it's in Italy or the US.

Amanda fabricated many lies with her wool.

[GossipGirl]

95% of all murders are circumstantial in nature. Only 5% are actually seen or admitted to.
Our judicial system has it's many flaws, just as I'm sure Italy's has. I don't think they railroaded her because she was a foreigner or any of that, and when you do a little research into their system, it, like ours, has things in place to counteract the oddities.
For instance, the guilty do not start serving their actual sentences until all of the appeals are done, which could take years. Amanda has not started serving hers yet. But, when they do actually start, the sentence is often reduced. In our country, our prisoner's get time-served credited to their sentences.
It all comes out in the wash.
We have very corrupt judges and courts here in the US, so I am not willing or desiring ever to bash some other nation's messes.
We have plenty of our own to be concerned about.
I live in NJ, we arrested our politico's en masse this summer, some 40-odd of them.
It's all about money, no matter where you live, I never forget OJ.

GG

[Emerald]

Amanda's cut her hair short. Supposedly because of the stress she is having to endure. Prison isn't ClubMed? BooHoooooo...... I guess we'll see photos when enough $$$ are paid for the images.

[GossipGirl]

oh great. The fat-face is back.
GG

[Emerald]

Rudy Guede's sentence was reduced in his appeal. Initially sentenced to 30 years, the appeal gave him 24 years reduced by 1/3 to 16 because of opting for a 'Fast track' trial.

Amanda and Raffaele, on the other hand, opted for a full trial. Their sentences will most likely stand.

I don't have sympathy for the $$$ spent by the AK Family. She could have put a stop to the cash flow, but didn't. The very same evidence would have been presented in a 'Fast track' trial.

Fleeing the country would not have changed the evidence, either. Rudy Guede fled. He was extradited back to Italy.

Amanda's guilty. She is not the victim here. Meredith Kercher is.

[Emerald]

lane99,

I've read your post several times and don't understand it's point.

[pixiejoolz]

lane99,

I've read your post several times and don't understand it's point.

TY for posting that Emerald. I thought I must be completely missing something because I don't get it either. :shrug:
jmo

[Details]

TY for posting that Emerald. I thought I must be completely missing something because I don't get it either. :shrug:
jmoI think the point is that Niles is inviting someone they believe to be innocent, where Michael is inviting someone that no one debates is one of the killers.

However - from Michael's point of view - he's only having one killer, instead of two.

[Emerald]

You know, I kind of you know miss the you know appearances by the you know Family.

Double edged sword. Their lack of decorum to the Family of Meredith Kercher infuriates me, but the Amanda Knox Family gives fodder for posting.

[GossipGirl]

lane99,

I've read your post several times and don't understand it's point.

I think some of it is taken out of context. There's quoting from a bigger post and I believe Michael's banter was responsive to something the other one said, and so on and so on and so on.

You're either a G or a NG on this, or a Not Sure because there isn't enough hard evidence.
I'm jaded; I find them to be Guilty.

GG

[GossipGirl]

What forum? Link please.

I think he posts very informatively.
GG

[pixiejoolz]

I am one of those folks that reads along but so far hasn't posted here.

I like to read the In Session boards on Amanda Knox because I find it to be, relatively speaking, fair and balanced. People with differing ideas and viewpoints are encouraged to speak their mind here.

After reading five zillion holier than thou posts from MICHAEL (on this website) I decided to visit his forum website. I carefully waded through an incredible volume of posts there.

Although the posters are pretty well informed over at the Perugia website, there is a very confirming viewpoint that they all espouse. But worse than this, contrary opinions are simply not tolerated.

I registered an account over there and attempted to make a comment about this. Within two minutes, I was banned from the site.

No exaggeration.

I find MICHAEL and his website to be one of the most disgusting boards, of any kind, that I have ever encountered.

For someone so new to posting opinions here, you certainly seem to take an unusually, one might even think suspiciously strong negative stand against that site and the person who runs it.

"One of the most disgusting boards I have ever encountered." Disgusting? Really?

MICHAEL all in caps all the time? Why?

Your own nic, "Not Michael?" Hmm, interesting pic for someone who isn't right in the mix of a board fight.

jmo, but it all sounds very, very personal to me.

Just saying.:shrug:

[dgfred]

I found the information and discussions on that forum highly enlightening. The footprint analysis was especially good. Also how it was shown that climbing through the window was very unlikely.

[Details]

I found the information and discussions on that forum highly enlightening. The footprint analysis was especially good. Also how it was shown that climbing through the window was very unlikely.Setting up that broken window to fake a robbery (as it appears was the motive) was likely one of their biggest mistakes. A hard window to break, pretty well impossible to get through. And the glass being on the wrong side of some items proved it wasn't a break-in then ransack - the room was set up to look ransacked before the window was broken - ooopsie!

[dgfred]

AK's DNA:


1- AK's dna on knife.
2- AK's dna mixed with MK's blood on ledge of basin.
3- AK's dna mixed with MK's blood on bidet.
4- AK's dna mixed with MK's blood on box of Q-tips.
5- AK's dna mixed with MK's blood in hallway.
6- AK's dna mixed with MK's blood on floor in Filomenia's room.
7- AK's dna on MK's bra according to RS's forensics expert.

*bloody shoeprint on pillow under MK's body consistant with AK's shoe size but NOT consistant with MK's.

[Emerald]

The Meredith/Amanda dna evidence on the knife in Raffaele's is damning. Meredith had never been to Raffaele's apartment. His dna was not on the knife.

That added to several confessions of Amanda, accusing other. She knew details of hte crime before the investigators had confirmed.

FWIW, I am not convinced Amanda committed the actual murder. But I do believe she was there and capable of helping Meredith. Instead, Amanda chose (still chooses) to not accept responsibility. She does not even to this day accept responsibility for the arrest of an innocent man, Patrick Lumumba.

Edda Mellas knew Amanda had lied about Patrick Lumumba but chose not to put a stop to his incarceration.

[Pat]

http://perugiamurderfile.org/

The more heinous a crime is, the stronger becomes the desire to see the perpetrator punished. <snipped>

And that is why, in some very high-profile cases, individuals create message boards and blogs devoted specifically to that case. Every piece of information is duly located, dissected and filed. How that blog/message board is run is up to the creator. If they choose to limit access to participants who are sympathetic to their viewpoint, that is their right.

I belonged to a message board very much like the one you described. The moderation was absolutely ruthless and posters looking to distort the real facts were banned in a heartbeat. You might be familiar with that case? The Duke LaCrosse Hoax? There were posters, who if allowed, would have destroyed that board for no other reason than because they could.

The point is, just as on InSession, you have only as many "rights" as the board owner allows you. You obviously lost your rights immediately. Was it fair? Of course it was. Your rights ended where the rights of the owner began.

Next case, find a board more sympathetic to your point of view.

[GossipGirl]

That happened with the Melanie McGuire board too, and now there's both G and NG boards where people can rant to their heart's content, and get banned at the whim of the owner.
It's the way it is.

GG

[Anton]

I read that CCTV caught Amanda going to Meredith's house on the night of the murder. Is this true ? If so that is nearly as damning as the DNA evidence.

[Anton]

What do people think about the 13 hours the jury took to reach a decision ? To me that sounds like quite a short time for such a long trial.

[Details]

I read that CCTV caught Amanda going to Meredith's house on the night of the murder. Is this true ? If so that is nearly as damning as the DNA evidence.I've read that too. And that that evidence destroyed her initial alibi, being at boyfriend's house the entire night.

[Anton]

For everything the prosecution bring up, the defence will say it is wrong or inconclusive.

The DNA evidence is too small and has been contaminated. Check.

The circumstantial evidence is wrong and the witnesses unreliable. Check.

The lies from both AM & RS are due to police pressure. Check.

The motive of AK being fired and replaced by Meredith and the two of them not getting along is wrong. Check.


From what I've read on the internet, public opinion seems very 50/50. However the jurors spent a year sitting in court and came to a 'Beyond Resonable Doubt' guilty verdict.

[Anton]

It's quite easy to imagine the three of them in the bedroom taunting and trying to scare Meredith. Two men and a women with at least one knife would have had Meredith terrified.

Who know's what a terrified person would do. A lot of people would fight back, perhaps this resulted in the knife being accidentially used creating the first of her several serious injuries. The three of them then panicked and thought they had better go all the way and kill Meredith.

[Anton]

It seems to be accepted, even by the defence that there was a poor attempt to create a fake break in. Why would RG break in, not take anything and then create a fake break in ?

[Anton]

Not sure how the court system works in any country. But if AK was hit on the head by police and deprived of sleep and food, could'nt her defence bring this up in court and claim a mis trial ? Providing he had proof of course. I've not read RS complain about mistreatment from the police.

To be honest I think the lies from AK, RS & RG are from three very young people. None of them were clever enough to talk themselves out of getting charged or pin everything on someone else.

The only thing which was done correctly was cleaning some of the flat with bleach. It's well known that bleach is an excellent way of removing evidence.

[Anton]

The fact that RG's blood and DNA are all over the bedroom but hardly any of AK & RS is interesting.

Perhaps the three of them started off together on a mission to scare and humiliate Meredith. When things got out of hand, RG was the man who lost control and AK & RS took a step back, standing by the door telling RG to stop.

Knox & RS would have then known that nearly all the blood & DNA at the crime scene was RG's but did not want to name him as he would say they were both present.

[GossipGirl]

Well I spent a few hours reading Michaels' Perugia site and now I have a lot more knowledge about this case.
I don't believe they were hit by the police or hurt anymore than anywhere else.
Was the govt' corrupt? I live in the USA. I have no idea. This is a rampant problem here and one that doesn't get my dander up as much as it did when i was young.
These guys are all guilty and I'm really not sure if Guido did anymore than the rape. I really believe AK and RS just used him to do the rape and ultimately take the fall, if needed.
The fact that she tried to pin it on her boss, also black, raised eyebrows to say the least. She let him rot there for 2 weeks before he was set free.
Guido says the motive was money. He's talking now that he fast-tracked. He got a lighter sentence for this too. I think he can be believed now with regards to AK's motive.
If true, it's AK who was the leader of this gang of thugs.
GG

[Anton]

Some people say AM did not know RG. This is incorrect. In court she said she knew RG. I also understand that she spoke to him on the phone before and after the murder.

[Anton]

It's perfectly feasible that there were two knives at the crime. RG carried one. RS may have also brought a knife over. That could explain why there was differing knife marks according to the defence.

[Anton]

Good point 'Gossipgirl'.

To get RG to rape Meredith would put his DNA inside her. If most of the blood inside the room was also RG's that would make it look like he was the soul killer. All AK had to do after this was create a fake break in and mop up anything connecting her with the crime with bleach. AK may have told RG to leave the country and she would not grass on him. Perhaps that's why she intially said it was her boss.

[Anton]

Did AK buy bleach the morning after the murder or not ?

Most shops, even small shops have CCTV camera's. Or perhaps there were other CCTV camera's that caught her heading there.

[Anton]

It's natural for AK's parents to say they are going to appeal. But from what I have read about the case it looks like there is a strong chance they won't win the appeal. Italy are'nt going to just roll over just because some American's are'nt happy. A failure to win on appeal will just increase her sentance.

Perhaps it would be better to request a reduced sentance, like RG recently did. His sentance was virtually cut in half. If this happened to AK, she would only be in here 30's upon release.

[Anton]

AK said herself she had a fair trial. I also read that there was a legally qualified representative from America present throughout the trial to ensure everything was above board.

The trial lasted a year so here defence had more than enough time to put 'resonable doubt' into the jury's minds.

[Anton]

I don't understand how AM & RS could not have had watertight alibi's if they were innocent. All they had to do was say they were together all night at RS's place. There then covering each other's alibi's.

However there must have evidence which contradicted one of both of their original's alibi's. That's when the lies, counter lies and accusations started.

[Anton]

There has been a lot of talk about how the jury had access to the media during the trial. Was that really so bad ?

The main news where I live - BBC, ITV, SKY has to report the news in an unbiased way. Newspaper reports on the case I've read have been both pro and anti AK.

Would'nt it be similar to this in Italy. Afterall a middle class Italian male was also on trial.

[Anton]

There was a possibility that Meredith's body would not have been found for several days or weeks. This would have given AK, RG & RS plenty of time to cover themselves.

The police investigated after returning the mobile phones that had been thrown out of the window. Not because AK or RS phoned them.

AK tried to prevent the police from entering Meredith's bedroom by saying her bedroom was always locked. It was only after another 'innocent' flatmate said this was not true, that the bedroom door was knocked down.

[Anton]

The fake break in made me laugh. A smashed window which could only be accessible by a ladder.

No remotely competent burglar would walk around with a ladder. Burglars would not look to smash window's either. It's noisey and messy. Burglars will look for window's which have been left ajar or a window which could easily be yanked open.

Somebody let RG in. Meredith did not know him. AK did.

[Emerald]

RG received the reduced sentence because he opted for a fast track trial. His sentence on appeal was reduced from 30 years to 24. Then again by a third to 16 because of the fast track option.

AK and RS opted out, choosing the full trial.

[Anton]

There simply seems to be so much for the AK/RS supporters to have to defend & deny -

DNA evidence.

Circumstantial evidence.

Lies and false accusations.

A possible motive.

A jury making a 'beyond resonable doubt' verdict in 13 hours.

A fair, trial and pre trial (in AK's words) in a first world European country. This lasted over a year.

AK & RS having the best defence lawyers possible but still failing to put 'resonable doubt' in the juries minds.

A middle class Italian also being found guilty, refuting the 'Anti America' accusation.


____________

Let's not underestimate circumstantial & witness evidence. Before DNA evidence excisted, people were tried and convicted on this alone.

[Anton]

Meredith's bedroom being locked and a missing key is interesting. I've read that her body could have stayed there for days and weeks without anyone noticing. RG quickly left the country after the murder, perhaps AK & RS were planning to do the same thing.

The police turned up at the property soon after the murder, however this was not due to AK or RS phoning them. AK told the police Meredith's bedroom was always locked. Perhaps to try to get the police to leave without forcing entry. It is lucky another flat mate said Meredith always kept her bedroom door open.

[Anton]

Meredith's relatives seemed to be content with the guilty verdicts of both AK & RS. They would know more about the murder than any of us.

I assume some of her relatives sat through the whole trial. Being Meredith's next of kin they would have been kept informed of proceedings & developments by lawyers, both pre trial and during the trial.

[Anton]

It seems that the other flat mates, when interviewed as witnesses gave cast iron alibi's and were allowed to leave virtually straight away.

AK & RS when interviewed 'as witnesses' failed to do this, dispite not being put under any pressure. This made the the police suspicious.

Did AK start lying and accusing other people while she was still classed as a witness ?

[Anton]

I wonder why AK said the bar man did it ? Being a bar man he must have been at the bar all night, therefore would have had several witnesses to back up his alibi. Unless he was'nt working that night. Even then he just needs one person to help him prove he was'nt at the crime scene.

[GossipGirl]

I wonder why AK said the bar man did it ? Being a bar man he must have been at the bar all night, therefore would have had several witnesses to back up his alibi. Unless he was'nt working that night. Even then he just needs one person to help him prove he was'nt at the crime scene.

Because he is black, as is RG, and a witness saw a dark man running from the place.
RS changed his initial story about them being together all night. I can't recall why, tho.
GG

[GossipGirl]

I wonder why AK said the bar man did it ? Being a bar man he must have been at the bar all night, therefore would have had several witnesses to back up his alibi. Unless he was'nt working that night. Even then he just needs one person to help him prove he was'nt at the crime scene.

He had texted her to say she didn't have to work that night, and when she texted back she said 'see ya later' which police took to mean they had a preplanned meeting. They did not, just an idiomatic American expression.
I think she was willing to toss the blame his direction because of some argument with him about working at his club. Meredith had just gotten a job there. She knee-jerked but she was mad at him.
She had set the scene up for RG to take the fall, he left the cottage before the other 2 did, which only a really stupidly trusting person would do.
I'm sure they told him to go and get cleaned up as he had DNA on him, and the other 2 stayed to set the stage for a robbery by Guede gone horribly wrong.
GG

[GossipGirl]

Meredith's bedroom being locked and a missing key is interesting. I've read that her body could have stayed there for days and weeks without anyone noticing. RG quickly left the country after the murder, perhaps AK & RS were planning to do the same thing.

The police turned up at the property soon after the murder, however this was not due to AK or RS phoning them. AK told the police Meredith's bedroom was always locked. Perhaps to try to get the police to leave without forcing entry. It is lucky another flat mate said Meredith always kept her bedroom door open.

No, I think it was to make the police believe that it would be out of character to just burst in a woman's room that was always shut tight, thereby giving credence to the idea that after her 'shower' in a somewhat bloody apt, she would just leave without checking in that room.
It was all self serving.
GG

[GossipGirl]

There has been a lot of talk about how the jury had access to the media during the trial. Was that really so bad ?

The main news where I live - BBC, ITV, SKY has to report the news in an unbiased way. Newspaper reports on the case I've read have been both pro and anti AK.

Would'nt it be similar to this in Italy. Afterall a middle class Italian male was also on trial.

No it's just Italian law. Their system is different than mine which is different from yours and so on and so on and so on. In Italy there is the Corte d'Assis, where there are 2 professional jurors, and 6 lay jurors. When you see Italian trials, parts of it will show the jurors with Italian sashes on them in the colors of the flag. This is mandatory.
Interesting to me, but at the same time the rest of Europe sees them as a bit backwords.
I'm in the US, we don't know anything about it here.
GG

[Emerald]

It seems that the other flat mates, when interviewed as witnesses gave cast iron alibi's and were allowed to leave virtually straight away.

AK & RS when interviewed 'as witnesses' failed to do this, dispite not being put under any pressure. This made the the police suspicious.

Did AK start lying and accusing other people while she was still classed as a witness ?

AK was classified as a witness until she gave details in her Patrick Lumumba 'confession'. Immediately, AK was classified as a suspect and held to be questioned the next day in the presence of attorneys. None of the information was used against her.

Very early in the morning (@0300, IIRC) Amanda insisted on writing the confession, presenting it to the cell guards. Mignini had to be roused to go to the police station to hear/read Amanda's detailed confession of being present when Lumumba committed the crime. This was allowed, because it was in Amanda's own hand.

Amanda had been admonished not to speak until the attorneys were present the next day. She insisted.

I know nothing about Italian Justice protocol. In the US, if you say anything after being advised of your right to an attorney, it WILL be used against you. Sounds like Italian Justice is similar.

Amanda is guilty, guilty, guilty. I'm not convinced of Raffaele's guilt.

[Anton]

AK knew when Meredith was at home. She also knew she kept her door open. It seems she wanted to teach her a lesson and scare her. However I doubt she wanted to kill her, she did'nt dislike her enough to risk spending 20 years inside.

AK knew that having a mild man like RS may not have been enough back up. So she recruited RG to come along. Perhaps not knowing RG was a petty thief, drug dealer and always carried a knife with him.

Someone who knew RG said he was the kind of man that was always pestering women, but never getting any success & rarely accepting he had been rejected. He may have become angry that Meredith also rejected him, alternativly he may have got over excited that he had an attractive women at his mercy.

[Anton]

The defence say that only some of the knife marks at the crime scene match the knife found at RS's house. The perfectly resonable explanation to this is there were two knifes at the scene. It's known that RG carried a knife.

Perhaps AK & RS were not aware that RG carried a knife. So RS brought his own knife to Meredith's. This was used for some of the crime. RS then took the knife home and cleaned with bleach. RG no doubt dumped his knife.

RS would have thought that bringing the knife back to his house and cleaning it with bleach would be suffcient. Top marks to the Italian police for checking his house.

It's not surprising that only a small amount of Meredith's DNA was found on the knife. However I understand it was an exact match. Meredith had never been to RS house.

[GossipGirl]

AK was classified as a witness until she gave details in her Patrick Lumumba 'confession'. Immediately, AK was classified as a suspect and held to be questioned the next day in the presence of attorneys. None of the information was used against her.

Very early in the morning (@0300, IIRC) Amanda insisted on writing the confession, presenting it to the cell guards. Mignini had to be roused to go to the police station to hear/read Amanda's detailed confession of being present when Lumumba committed the crime. This was allowed, because it was in Amanda's own hand.

Amanda had been admonished not to speak until the attorneys were present the next day. She insisted.

I know nothing about Italian Justice protocol. In the US, if you say anything after being advised of your right to an attorney, it WILL be used against you. Sounds like Italian Justice is similar.

Amanda is guilty, guilty, guilty. I'm not convinced of Raffaele's guilt.

To quote a friend of mine on another trial
"Clean-up and removal".

GG

[Anton]

Does anyone know how the appeal process works ? I thought there were a number of steps taken before the case even got to court.

The police needed to have what they thought was enough evidence to charge AK & RS.

The prosecution then had to convince the courts that there was enough evidence for a trial. Prior to the trial I understand there was a pre trial where it was decided what evidence could be produced during the trial. Then finally there was a year long trial where a jury found both defendants guilty. A number of judges were involved in all these steps.

Is the appeal a request to get the guilty verdict overturned or to get a judge to order a re trial ?

[bugout]

Hello Anton, I listened to a show with Ann Bremer from Seattle, she is advocating pretty intensely for AK.
Now, on the one show I did give her her due, and I listened. She seems to think that AK actually has a really good chance at an appeal. And how it works over there is they actually get the court to re examine the case.
The whole case. So winning an appeal over there, is an auto re examination of the case evidence, in this case I think it would be the DNA.
I heard a lot of harping on who actually did the tests, and so on.

I feel that AK is completely arrogant and guilty. I think she thought she was smarter than Italian Justical system could ever be. She writes to her previous professors in Seattle, often.

Her actions to me always seem to be so self serving. Watching her body language in court was very interesting and telling, for me.

I don't know if the appeal will happen but from what I'm hearing, she has a good chance at one. You can google online the Italian Judicial system and read up on how their appeals process works. It's different than the US. I don't understand all of it yet.
:D But that is because I feel that AK is right where she belongs.
Bug

[Malkmus]

Why would RG break in, not take anything and then create a fake break in ?

Meredith's rent money which she had withdrawn from the bank two days earlier was missing (250 euros). And let's not forget the two cellphones recovered in someone's garden very near to where Rudy lived. Also, Rudy would have been able to put that money to good use on his cross-country travel the next day, from Perugia to Milan then to Germany.

[Emerald]

I don't think the appeals process can start until the official report from the trial is presented. The documents will say why and how the opinion was reached. It will also indicate how many of the jurists agreed with the final guilty verdict.

At least that's how I understand the process.

Seems like a waste of time to me. Amanda is where she belongs.

[Malkmus]

Some people say AM did not know RG. This is incorrect. In court she said she knew RG. I also understand that she spoke to him on the phone before and after the murder.

Amanda knew of Rudy, who had been a guest of the boys living downstairs a total of two times. There were never any calls between Rudy and Amana, Raffaelle, or Meredith.
Nor was Amanda ever filmed on CCTV entering the cottage the night of the murder. A claim was made early within the first two weeks of the murder that she had been ID'd on CCTV, but such a video has never surfaced anywhere, in court or on the internet (the other CCTV footage claiming to show Rudy that night, and officers the next morning have surfaced on the internet, but nothing of Amanda), and news of the supposed Amanda footage was never mentioned in the press again after those first couple weeks.

Had Rudy ever called Amanda or had Amanda been caught entering the cottage on CCTV the night of the murder, both would have been watershed pieces of evidence for the prosecution. It's also worth mentioning that Rudy had no phone as it had been confiscated by police earlier that week. So calling Amanda was out of the question anyway. Rudy made one call by Skype when in germany to a friend asking for him to send him money.

And rocks being thrown through high-up windows was apparently Rudy's MO:

The proceedings in the court began today with the testimony of two lawyers from Perugia, who stood firm in their claim that Rudy Guede stole a laptop and a mobile phone from their offices which were later seized by the police.

The two professionals explained that the theft happened overnight between 13 and 14 October 2007 when an unknown person entered the law firm premises after having broken a glass window with a rock.

The lawyer Paul Brocchi described the entrance window, located about three to four meters above the ground, as ‘’not easy to enter’’ and he said that the alarm usually switched on in the evenings was not activated.

On that occasion, among other things stolen were a laptop computer and a mobile phone seized by police on October 27 when Rudy Guede was caught sleeping in a nursery school in Milan.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C195/

[Emerald]

The phones were discarded to keep Meredith from using them to call for help.

There were no computers stolen. They were in plain site.

[Jester]

Meredith's relatives seemed to be content with the guilty verdicts of both AK & RS. They would know more about the murder than any of us.

I assume some of her relatives sat through the whole trial. Being Meredith's next of kin they would have been kept informed of proceedings & developments by lawyers, both pre trial and during the trial.

Actually, they had a lawyer representing them and he was in court throughout the trial, but the family was only there for the verdict.

[Jester]

I wonder why AK said the bar man did it ? Being a bar man he must have been at the bar all night, therefore would have had several witnesses to back up his alibi. Unless he was'nt working that night. Even then he just needs one person to help him prove he was'nt at the crime scene.

Patrick, in an interview, said that he thought Amanda implicated him because be is black, that he was an easy target because black men are often portrayed in film etc. as being the bad guy. Amanda may have thought he wasn't working, as he had called her to say that it was a slow night, and to not show up for work.

[Jester]

I don't think the appeals process can start until the official report from the trial is presented. The documents will say why and how the opinion was reached. It will also indicate how many of the jurists agreed with the final guilty verdict.

At least that's how I understand the process.

Seems like a waste of time to me. Amanda is where she belongs.

I think so, and then the appeal is automatic.

[Anton]

I remember when a young Louise Woodward was found guilty. She sobbed loudly in court and shouted that the verdict was wrong. Probably because whatever had happened was an accident and not pre meditated. AK simply looked down when the 'guilty' verdict was made.

I've not read anything about RS since the verdict. Anyone know if there are 'Friends of Raffele' sites, politicians supporting him or whether his parents are appearing on every T.V. show possible ?

[Anton]

If AK had wanted to harm Meredith it is perfectly feasible that she woule recruit two men, rather than one.

I don't know much about RS, however he does seem like a mild mannered, geeky, middle class Italian. Perhaps AK was not convinced he would go through with what she had in mind. So RG was brought on board.

[Anton]

The defence claim that some of the knife marks at the crime scene do match RS's knife.

Whether this is true or not, the prosecution can just claim that two knifes were used at the crime scene. They then simply just have to prove that RG carried a knife. Which I understand is a well known proveable fact.

[GossipGirl]

In the Italian process, they will not start serving their sentences until their Appeals are exhausted, which could take years. If you frasttrack as RG did, you save money and so they usually decrease your sentence, which his was.
AK and RS will have to wait years before serving their sentences. I doubt they will be reduced by anymore then the equivalent of time-served.
GG

[Anton]

If AK & RS both accepted their sentances I wonder how much would be reduced for 'good behaviour' ? If they only served, say 15 years each, they would both be in their 30's upon release.

If Knox, her parents and the USA in general accepted the decision I'm sure an arrangement could be made for AK to serve some of her time in the USA.

However there is no chance of this happening.

[Anton]

I've read that one in three appeals in Italy are successful. Can anyone appeal ? Or do you have to prove to judges that there are reasonable grounds to appeal.

Grounds for appeal could be things such as new evidence, new witnesses, proof that previous evidence is wrong or proof that lies were told in court.

[Malkmus]

There were no computers stolen. They were in plain site.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but if so, I never said computers were stolen from the villa, just the 250 euros and cellphones. If you're referring to the blurb I quoted from truejustice that was about Rudy being caught with stolen goods including a cellphone and computer five days before Meredith's murder, then I think you may have misread it.

Yes, Amanda's computer was confiscated from the villa and subsequently fried by police, erasing any evidence that may have helped either the defense or prosecution. Just another unfortunate police blunder.

[Xainia]

I remember when a young Louise Woodward was found guilty. She sobbed loudly in court and shouted that the verdict was wrong. Probably because whatever had happened was an accident and not pre meditated.

Snipped

There was misunderstanding with a few statements Louise Woodward made.

Cultural differences.

The one that sticks in my mind is when she said she 'popped' the child in bed.

Many in the US heard that as 'hit' the child.
In the UK it is a well known and used term for 'place'

My mother is English and uses this term all the time.

[Jester]

I remember when a young Louise Woodward was found guilty. She sobbed loudly in court and shouted that the verdict was wrong. Probably because whatever had happened was an accident and not pre meditated. AK simply looked down when the 'guilty' verdict was made.

I've not read anything about RS since the verdict. Anyone know if there are 'Friends of Raffele' sites, politicians supporting him or whether his parents are appearing on every T.V. show possible ?

Actually, I think I read that Amanda started yelling "no" and was crying on the way back to the van that took her back to the jail. Someone in Amanda's family swore loudly. The crowd on the street was cheering. Raffaele said nothing, and did not cry.

[Jester]

I've read that one in three appeals in Italy are successful. Can anyone appeal ? Or do you have to prove to judges that there are reasonable grounds to appeal.

Grounds for appeal could be things such as new evidence, new witnesses, proof that previous evidence is wrong or proof that lies were told in court.

There's an automatic appeal in the case of murder.

It's unlikely their sentences will be reduced. Rudy's was reduced because he fast tracked.

[Jester]

Not sure if this was directed at me, but if so, I never said computers were stolen from the villa, just the 250 euros and cellphones. If you're referring to the blurb I quoted from truejustice that was about Rudy being caught with stolen goods including a cellphone and computer five days before Meredith's murder, then I think you may have misread it.

Yes, Amanda's computer was confiscated from the villa and subsequently fried by police, erasing any evidence that may have helped either the defense or prosecution. Just another unfortunate police blunder.

Amanda's computer was not part of the crime ... in the sense that no one claimed to be using her computer in the time surrounding the murder. If there were any images of Meredith and Amanda on the computer (none have surfaced), they would have been emailed to someone, on a facebook page, part of her phone memory ... but there don't appear to be any. As for email, again ... she would have used hotmail or some other generic email service, so frying her computer would not prevent anyone from accessing that information. There do not appear to be any emails between Amanda and Meredith ... none that the defence introduced anyway. There were some text messages, and those have been retrieved and published. I highly doubt there was anything on Amanda's computer that would aid the defence ... at least nothing that would not have also been on some other server. Raffaele's computer was important, and was not fried. It was part of the alibi. His computer was also used to demonstrate lies told by Amanda and Raffaele in terms of inconsistent time lines.

[Emerald]

Not sure if this was directed at me, but if so, I never said computers were stolen from the villa, just the 250 euros and cellphones. If you're referring to the blurb I quoted from truejustice that was about Rudy being caught with stolen goods including a cellphone and computer five days before Meredith's murder, then I think you may have misread it.

Yes, Amanda's computer was confiscated from the villa and subsequently fried by police, erasing any evidence that may have helped either the defense or prosecution. Just another unfortunate police blunder.

How could Amanda's computer evidence exonerate her? No one not even Amanda has ever indicated the evidence from her computer was relevant.

Seems like it was just the investigators being very thorough, exploring every avenue.

FWIW, I'm not convinced by most of the forensic evidence. It is Amanda's very own several confessions of being at the crime scene which convinced me. She knew things the investigators had not yet encountered.

IMO, Edda Mellas should owe civil restitution to Patrick Lumumba. She could have put a stop to his wrongful incarceration, but CHOSE not to.

Amanda is right where she belongs.

[TheBitterEnd]

Raffaele's computer was important, and was not fried. It was part of the alibi. His computer was also used to demonstrate lies told by Amanda and Raffaele in terms of inconsistent time lines.

Where do you get your facts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234298/Amanda-Knox-The-troubling-doubts-Foxy-Knoxys-role-Meredith-Kerchers-murder.html

"The appeal will examine closely how potentially critical evidence on three laptops - two owned by Sollecito and one owned by Knox - was destroyed by a police 'computer expert'."

"But the computer expert managed to systematically destroy all three hard-drives"

[Emerald]

Where do you get your facts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234298/Amanda-Knox-The-troubling-doubts-Foxy-Knoxys-role-Meredith-Kerchers-murder.html

"The appeal will examine closely how potentially critical evidence on three laptops - two owned by Sollecito and one owned by Knox - was destroyed by a police 'computer expert'."

"But the computer expert managed to systematically destroy all three hard-drives"

The transcripts of the trial are available.

Since no appeal has been filed, your quotes cannot be anything more than supposition.

Amanda Knox has been tried fairly in a court of law. She has been found guilty of participating in the crimes against the only victim Meredith Kercher.

If the criminal, Amanda Knox, did not want to be in prison in Italy, she should not have committed heinous crimes in Italy.

[Malkmus]

Amanda's computer was not part of the crime ... in the sense that no one claimed to be using her computer in the time surrounding the murder. If there were any images of Meredith and Amanda on the computer (none have surfaced), they would have been emailed to someone, on a facebook page, part of her phone memory ... but there don't appear to be any. As for email, again ... she would have used hotmail or some other generic email service, so frying her computer would not prevent anyone from accessing that information. There do not appear to be any emails between Amanda and Meredith ... none that the defence introduced anyway. There were some text messages, and those have been retrieved and published. I highly doubt there was anything on Amanda's computer that would aid the defence ... at least nothing that would not have also been on some other server. Raffaele's computer was important, and was not fried. It was part of the alibi. His computer was also used to demonstrate lies told by Amanda and Raffaele in terms of inconsistent time lines.

As I said, the destruction of Amanda's hard drive resulted in loss of information that might have helped either the defense or prosecution. Who knows whether there was anything on it that would have made a difference, but because of the police blunder we'll never really know. For the prosecution's side, for example, it may have proven that Amanda was at the cottage the night of the murder. As for the defense, we know that they needed to provide as much proof as they could that Meredith and Amanda had a friendly relationship. Your hypothesis that all Amanda's pictures would have been sent to friends and family is pure speculation and is disproved by Amanda's testimony (And even if we assume Amanda had a habit of posting/emailing all her photos to others that doesn't mean she got around to doing so by the time her computer was confiscated):


...the computer was the important thing for me. All my documents
were in it...

So in your computer there were photographs of you and Meredith at the
Chocolate Festival?

That, and pictures of us going around, and she asked me to take pictures of
her next to her window, where you could see the view. They're all in the
computer.


It's entirely possible that such documents included things like short stories or possibly a journal that would have shed some light on her relationship with Meredith.

[Malkmus]

How could Amanda's computer evidence exonerate her? No one not even Amanda has ever indicated the evidence from her computer was relevant.


Never said the info on her computer would exonerate her. I did say, as I've already reiterated to Jester, that whatever was on there possibly could have helped either the defense or prosecution.


Seems like it was just the investigators being very thorough, exploring every avenue.


Are you actually saying that the police accidentally frying Amanda's hard drive is just testament to how great they were at their job?

[Emerald]

Are you actually saying that the police accidentally frying Amanda's hard drive is just testament to how great they were at their job?

No. I'm saying the police were being thorough in their investigation, considering the possibility of exploring even Amanda's computer.

Amanda wrote and presented to investigators several confessions of being at the crime scene. Wrote subsequent e-mails and journal entries which show complete disregard for the victim, the circumstance surrounding the crime, and the other roommates. Amanda thought it was comical that the other roommates actually considered her a friend.

Even after the horrors of the crimes, in her jailhouse diary, Amanda joked she would kill for a slice of pizza.

Meredith Kercher is the victim of the brutal crimes Amanda witnessed.

Edda Mellas overtly supported Amanda's choice to victimize Patrick Lumumba.

Amanda is not a victim. She is the perpetrator of the crimes.

AMANDA KNOX IS A CRIMINAL!

[Jester]

As I said, the destruction of Amanda's hard drive resulted in loss of information that might have helped either the defense or prosecution. Who knows whether there was anything on it that would have made a difference, but because of the police blunder we'll never really know. For the prosecution's side, for example, it may have proven that Amanda was at the cottage the night of the murder. As for the defense, we know that they needed to provide as much proof as they could that Meredith and Amanda had a friendly relationship. Your hypothesis that all Amanda's pictures would have been sent to friends and family is pure speculation and is disproved by Amanda's testimony (And even if we assume Amanda had a habit of posting/emailing all her photos to others that doesn't mean she got around to doing so by the time her computer was confiscated):


...the computer was the important thing for me. All my documents
were in it...

So in your computer there were photographs of you and Meredith at the
Chocolate Festival?

That, and pictures of us going around, and she asked me to take pictures of
her next to her window, where you could see the view. They're all in the
computer.


It's entirely possible that such documents included things like short stories or possibly a journal that would have shed some light on her relationship with Meredith.

Amanda needed a camera to take pictures. Most memory cards hold hundreds of photos, provided they are formatted correctly for snap shots. If there were photos, I'm saying that they should be on a secondary source such as myspace, facebook, email (generic account like hotmail), camera, or phone camera. She wrote to relatives about the chocolate event. If there were photos, wouldn't she have included at least one? Anyway, I'm of the opinion that there was nothing on the harddrive that would make any difference in the trial since it was not part of the alibi, or any time surrounding the events leading up to and following the murder.

[Jester]

Never said the info on her computer would exonerate her. I did say, as I've already reiterated to Jester, that whatever was on there possibly could have helped either the defense or prosecution.



Are you actually saying that the police accidentally frying Amanda's hard drive is just testament to how great they were at their job?

There's a voltage difference between the US and Italy. The computer guys may have overlooked this simple fact when they plugged in the machine. It happens.

[Jester]

Where do you get your facts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234298/Amanda-Knox-The-troubling-doubts-Foxy-Knoxys-role-Meredith-Kerchers-murder.html

"The appeal will examine closely how potentially critical evidence on three laptops - two owned by Sollecito and one owned by Knox - was destroyed by a police 'computer expert'."

"But the computer expert managed to systematically destroy all three hard-drives"

From your link:

"But a defence computer expert showed Sollecito was using his computer from 3.30pm to 6.30pm that day."

If the computer was destroyed, how could the defence obtain this information?

[Jester]

Raffaele's computer could not have been fried, as there was ample testimony regarding computer activity. Information from Raffaele's computer:

"Tests found that nobody had worked on Raffaele Sollecito's computer over an eight-hour period spanning the night when Ms Kercher was stabbed to death in her bedroom, prosecution witness Marco Trotta told an Italian court."
...
"Trotta showed the court videos and said there was "no human interaction" between 9:10 pm on November 1 and 5:32am the following day."
...
"Luca Maori, one of Sollecito's lawyers, said the defence will challenge the computer findings and insisted to reporters that his client "stayed at home" during that night."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kercher-Trial-Hears-Of-Weaknesses-In-Raffaele-Sollecitos-Computer-Alibi-At-Perugia-Trial/Article/200903215241484?f=rss

"Mr D’Ambrosio testified that someone had used Sollecito’s home computer twice on the night both defendants were being questioned by police about Miss Kercher’s killing, according to ANSA and other Italian news agencies. He said the computer was used to read ANSA’s reports about the November 1 slaying, the agencies reported.

The defence said this computer use had caused some data to be lost – data that might prove Sollecito’s alibi for the night, according to SKY TG24 TV. Sollecito, 25, has said he was home using his computer the night Miss Kercher was murdered."

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2009/0926/world/computer-evidence-could-prove-students-innocence-427914.html#ixzz0cH0FHDmX

[dgfred]

Meredith's rent money which she had withdrawn from the bank two days earlier was missing (250 euros). And let's not forget the two cellphones recovered in someone's garden very near to where Rudy lived. Also, Rudy would have been able to put that money to good use on his cross-country travel the next day, from Perugia to Milan then to Germany.

So you are saying RG staged the break-in :blink: ... but left his turd in the toilet and footprints/handprints all around MK's body???

Also the garden is very close to RS's home too.

[Jester]

Article describes similarities to murderer Amanda Knox.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1242296/Jessica-Davies--I-monster-What-Defence-Ministers-niece-told-police-slashing-lovers-throat.html

[Emerald]

Almost identical except that Amanda refuses to accept responsibility for her crimes against Meredith.

The Family of Jessica Davies has much more to lose socially than the Amanda Knox Family. However, the Knox Family has not the dignity to accept truth or require their daughter to tell the truth.

Amanda prefers to drain the Family coffers and those of everyone else she can dupe.

[pixiejoolz]

Article describes similarities to murderer Amanda Knox.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1242296/Jessica-Davies--I-monster-What-Defence-Ministers-niece-told-police-slashing-lovers-throat.html

What a stupid, infantile deadly woman. Thirty years old and she can't deal with mommy and daddy's divorce? And starts cutting herself? Sounds like someone should have seen something very wrong with her many years ago. jmo

[TheBitterEnd]

"Mr D’Ambrosio testified that someone had used Sollecito’s home computer twice on the night both defendants were being questioned by police about Miss Kercher’s killing, according to ANSA and other Italian news agencies. He said the computer was used to read ANSA’s reports about the November 1 slaying, the agencies reported.

The defence said this computer use had caused some data to be lost – data that might prove Sollecito’s alibi for the night, according to SKY TG24 TV. Sollecito, 25, has said he was home using his computer the night Miss Kercher was murdered."

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2009/0926/world/computer-evidence-could-prove-students-innocence-427914.html#ixzz0cH0FHDmX

So, out of the 4 computers -- Meredith's, Raffaele's (x2) and Amanda's -- the one computer (owned by Raffaele) that wasn't damaged by Police, was misused by somebody, potentially causing data to be lost.

Regarding the 3 damaged computers, Massimo Bernaschi explained that he wasn't initially able to start the laptops because someone had shocked them by giving them too strong an electric power surge, causing most of the data to be lost on Amanda's.

JMO but this is a little suspicious.

[TheBitterEnd]

Almost identical except that Amanda refuses to accept responsibility for her crimes against Meredith

Except Jessica Davies was barely able to stand because of the amount of drugs and drink she had consumed, had recently tried to commit suicide and was covered in blood when officers found her cradling the naked body of Olivier Mugnier.

Sounds more like a lone killer to me (think Rudy Guede).

When the prosecution decides to also blame the victims room mate, that left no dna/fingerprint evidence in the room, then you can claim it's "Almost identical".

[dgfred]

So, out of the 4 computers -- Meredith's, Raffaele's (x2) and Amanda's -- the one computer (owned by Raffaele) that wasn't damaged by Police, was misused by somebody, potentially causing data to be lost.

Regarding the 3 damaged computers, Massimo Bernaschi explained that he wasn't initially able to start the laptops because someone had shocked them by giving them too strong an electric power surge, causing most of the data to be lost on Amanda's.

JMO but this is a little suspicious.

Maybe, but weird the defense didn't claim this hurt their case in any way. If there were pics of AK and MK acting 'friend like', then there should be copies from somewhere. Even that would not show much imo.

[dgfred]

Except Jessica Davies was barely able to stand because of the amount of drugs and drink she had consumed, had recently tried to commit suicide and was covered in blood when officers found her cradling the naked body of Olivier Mugnier.

Sounds more like a lone killer to me (think Rudy Guede).

When the prosecution decides to also blame the victims room mate, that left no dna/fingerprint evidence in the room, then you can claim it's "Almost identical".

Well if the roommate is standing at the crime scene with a mop, repeatedly lies, does not have an alibi (but tries one anyway), accuses and innocent man (twice) and leaves him in jail for TWO WEEKS... blame might be the way to go.

Also AK might not have been able to stand... since we don't know and AK can not remember :rolleyes: . Probably had alot of blood on her too.

[dgfred]

Interesting to me is that:

When first discovering something 'amiss' at the cottage: AK calls her mom and tells her, her mom says hang up and call police... Ak say she will. LIE

Instead AK calls Filomena and says something 'odd' at the cottage. Filomena told her to call police right away and AK says she would. LIE

She spoke to Filomena a second time and told her she HAD called the police. LIE
Of course she might have meant that RS called his sister, but that is not what she said.

In fact she NEVER called the police. An hour passed from calling her mother to when the 2 postal policemen showed up UNEXPECTEDLY investigating the MK's phones found. They were there for 20 minutes before RS called to report a break-in from AK's room. AK can not explain these lies with the tough interrogation or from exhaustion.

Why would an innocent person think something was wrong at their home, but not call the police... but claim they did?

[Jester]

So, out of the 4 computers -- Meredith's, Raffaele's (x2) and Amanda's -- the one computer (owned by Raffaele) that wasn't damaged by Police, was misused by somebody, potentially causing data to be lost.

Regarding the 3 damaged computers, Massimo Bernaschi explained that he wasn't initially able to start the laptops because someone had shocked them by giving them too strong an electric power surge, causing most of the data to be lost on Amanda's.

JMO but this is a little suspicious.

That would be a voltage issue. I hadn't read about that, but it's easy enough to understand. US voltage is 110 or 120, Europe is 220. Amanda would have had an adaptor for her computer. If her computer was plugged in without the adaptor, the computer would be fried. If the adaptor was used on Raffaele's computer his computer would be fried.

[pixiejoolz]

Interesting to me is that:

When first discovering something 'amiss' at the cottage: AK calls her mom and tells her, her mom says hang up and call police... Ak say she will. LIE

Instead AK calls Filomena and says something 'odd' at the cottage. Filomena told her to call police right away and AK says she would. LIE

She spoke to Filomena a second time and told her she HAD called the police. LIE
Of course she might have meant that RS called his sister, but that is not what she said.

In fact she NEVER called the police. An hour passed from calling her mother to when the 2 postal policemen showed up UNEXPECTEDLY investigating the MK's phones found. They were there for 20 minutes before RS called to report a break-in from AK's room. AK can not explain these lies with the tough interrogation or from exhaustion.

Why would an innocent person think something was wrong at their home, but not call the police... but claim they did?

Only if that person was in a semi-hallucinatory state induced by what must surely be the strongest weed in the world. You know, the kind that gives you short-term memory loss and produces flashes, the feeling of being in a dream, and the recollection (despite the short term memory loss) that an innocent man who wasn't even in the house was there killing your roommate. It must have been the short term memory loss that made her keep claiming she was going to call or had called the police. :sneaky:
jmo

[Emerald]

Except Jessica Davies was barely able to stand because of the amount of drugs and drink she had consumed, had recently tried to commit suicide and was covered in blood when officers found her cradling the naked body of Olivier Mugnier.

Sounds more like a lone killer to me (think Rudy Guede).

When the prosecution decides to also blame the victims room mate, that left no dna/fingerprint evidence in the room, then you can claim it's "Almost identical".

Don't presume what I can and can't believe. The crimes sound almost identical to me.

Edda Mellas is a school teacher. What did Amanda share with her Mother that made her totally eschew her contracted job to fly off to Italy? Amanda was only a witness at that time. What information did Edda Mellas have to make her believe Amanda would actually be arreswted for the crimes she had committed?

[TheBitterEnd]

Edda Mellas is a school teacher. What did Amanda share with her Mother that made her totally eschew her contracted job to fly off to Italy? Amanda was only a witness at that time. What information did Edda Mellas have to make her believe Amanda would actually be arreswted for the crimes she had committed?

Last time I checked her flat mate was murdered and the killer had not been arrested. If it was my daughter either she would have been on the first flight home, or I would have been on the first flight there.

[TheBitterEnd]

That would be a voltage issue. I hadn't read about that, but it's easy enough to understand. US voltage is 110 or 120, Europe is 220. Amanda would have had an adaptor for her computer. If her computer was plugged in without the adaptor, the computer would be fried. If the adaptor was used on Raffaele's computer his computer would be fried.

What adaptors are you talking about? The power adapter I have for my laptop accepts 100-240V. That way you can use it in the US (110) UK (240V) or Continental Europe (220V). Electronic companies have done this for years. Laptops, Ipods. Phone chargers, whatever. Are you talking about the little plugs that allow you to plug a US plug into a European plug? These just change the shape of the plug, and have nothing to do with Voltage.

[TheBitterEnd]

Interesting to me is that:

When first discovering something 'amiss' at the cottage: AK calls her mom and tells her, her mom says hang up and call police... Ak say she will. LIE


The phone call to her mother is at 12:47, and Raffaele's phone call to his sister is just three minutes later at 12:50.

AK testified she didn't know how to call the police, or the the difference between police and carabinieri.


Instead AK calls Filomena and says something 'odd' at the cottage. Filomena told her to call police right away and AK says she would. LIE

She spoke to Filomena a second time and told her she HAD called the police. LIE
Of course she might have meant that RS called his sister, but that is not what she said.

In fact she NEVER called the police. An hour passed from calling her mother to when the 2 postal policemen showed up UNEXPECTEDLY investigating the MK's phones found. They were there for 20 minutes before RS called to report a break-in from AK's room. AK can not explain these lies with the tough interrogation or from exhaustion.

Why would an innocent person think something was wrong at their home, but not call the police... but claim they did?

Amanda only spoke basic Italian so any conversation between AK and Filomenia could easily have small misunderstandings.

Believe what you want, but nobody knows exactly when the postal police arrived at the house. They claim 12:35, but there is no proof. The prosecution and Raffaele's lawyers provided conflicting CCTV evidence neither of which, in my opinion, proved anything.

[Malkmus]

Amanda needed a camera to take pictures. Most memory cards hold hundreds of photos, provided they are formatted correctly for snap shots. If there were photos, I'm saying that they should be on a secondary source such as myspace, facebook, email (generic account like hotmail), camera, or phone camera. She wrote to relatives about the chocolate event. If there were photos, wouldn't she have included at least one? Anyway, I'm of the opinion that there was nothing on the harddrive that would make any difference in the trial since it was not part of the alibi, or any time surrounding the events leading up to and following the murder.

Well, if they had found a diary written by Amanda on her computer in which she states how much she hates Meredith and wanted to do something about it, that would have helped the prosecution build a stronger "motive" (not that they needed to in the end), cast more doubt in my mind of her innocence, and probably damaged her upcoming appeal. And I'll mention it again. Had her computer been used at all the night of the murder (with an internet connection) it would have proved that she was there.

As far as the photos... not sure why it's so hard to believe she had photos on her computer that weren't anywhere else. I think it's pretty normal to take photos, put them on one's computer, and delete them from the memory card. I certainly don't post or email all photos I take.

[Malkmus]

Amanda wrote and presented to investigators several confessions of being at the crime scene.

Exaggerate much? She wrote one letter in which she says she doesn't think she was at the crime scene, but was confused by the police having hard evidence proving the contrary.

From the letter she wrote after the interrogation:

The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.

Not aware of letters she wrote showing "complete disregard for the victim", but if you'd like to enlighten me I'm all ears. But I have to be honest and say that I'm not expecting anything except more out-of-context quotes and exaggeration like the pizza statement you quoted. I mean, really, "I'd kill for a pizza" is incriminating? No wonder she's in jail.

[Malkmus]

That would be a voltage issue. I hadn't read about that, but it's easy enough to understand. US voltage is 110 or 120, Europe is 220. Amanda would have had an adaptor for her computer. If her computer was plugged in without the adaptor, the computer would be fried. If the adaptor was used on Raffaele's computer his computer would be fried.

The adaptor is what allows the computer to be plugged in to the socket in the first place. European outlets are shaped different from ours, and plugging an American socket in to a European one would literally be like trying to fit a square peg in to a round hole. It would be impossible to do without physically breaking the socket or outlet with brute force.

[Malkmus]

So you are saying RG staged the break-in :blink: ... but left his turd in the toilet and footprints/handprints all around MK's body???

Also the garden is very close to RS's home too.

Yes, I'm saying Rudy broke in to the cottage, stole money, took a ****, and killed Meredith. What are you saying? That Rudy had nothing to do with it?

[Emerald]

Amanda wrote in a 'confession' of being present when the crimes against Meredith Kercher were committed by Patrick Lumumba. In that statement, Amanda gave details not yet confirmed by the investigators.

Amanda knew how the victim Meredith Kercher was murdered. She knew the exact placement at the crime scene.

Patrick Lumumba was held and interrogated for 2 weeks because of Amanda's written confession. She told her Mother, Edda Mellas, the accusation was a lie. Neither Amanda nor Edda Mellas bothered to tell the investigators Amanda had lied.

Oh yeah! Amanda was there when the crimes were committed. She knew what was behind that bedroom door before it was opened.

Amanda Knox is not the victim here.

RIP Meredith Kercher

[pixiejoolz]

Yes, I'm saying Rudy broke in to the cottage, stole money, took a ****, and killed Meredith. What are you saying? That Rudy had nothing to do with it?

Same tired attempt at obfuscation. As far as I am aware, there is no one on this board who has ever theorized that Rudy had nothing to do with it. But you already knew that, right? :rolleyes:

jmo

[Malkmus]

Amanda wrote in a 'confession' of being present when the crimes against Meredith Kercher were committed by Patrick Lumumba. In that statement, Amanda gave details not yet confirmed by the investigators.

Amanda knew how the victim Meredith Kercher was murdered. She knew the exact placement at the crime scene.

Patrick Lumumba was held and interrogated for 2 weeks because of Amanda's written confession. She told her Mother, Edda Mellas, the accusation was a lie. Neither Amanda nor Edda Mellas bothered to tell the investigators Amanda had lied.

Oh yeah! Amanda was there when the crimes were committed. She knew what was behind that bedroom door before it was opened.

Amanda Knox is not the victim here.

RIP Meredith Kercher

I just quoted for you from Amanda's letter what she wrote in her exact words. But you continue to state the same thing without citing anything. And please cite as well the "details not yet confirmed by investigators". The letter is public so you should have no problem backing this up.

FYI, you can add your line about Amanda being guilty as a signature to your profile. It will save you the time spent writing it at the end of every one of your posts. Especially since it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

[Emerald]

Same tired attempt at obfuscation. As far as I am aware, there is no one on this board who has ever theorized that Rudy had nothing to do with it. But you already knew that, right? :rolleyes:

jmo

Yep. It keeps the $$$ rolling in to the Amanda Knox Family.

Completely disregarding and distracting from the heinous crimes she committed against Meredith Kercher.

[Malkmus]

Same tired attempt at obfuscation. As far as I am aware, there is no one on this board who has ever theorized that Rudy had nothing to do with it. But you already knew that, right? :rolleyes:

jmo

Actually, that's called sarcasm. And it was an attempt to get dgfred to explain his bizarre statement implying that the same person who broke the window couldn't have also been the one who left the turd and fingerprints.

And since it was a question directed at him to explain his opinion, I'd appreciate an answer from him, not you.

[Emerald]

http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Minister39s-niece-39killed-lover-in.5973131.jp

Minister's niece 'killed lover in sex game like Amanda Knox'

Detectives believe Davies could have been influenced by the murder in Italy of Meredith Kercher, 21, the British student stabbed by Amanda Knox and her boyfriend during a sex game.

"She spoke to us of the case in Italy and it may be that she was inspired by what happened there."

[pixiejoolz]

Actually, that's called sarcasm. And it was an attempt to get dgfred to explain his bizarre statement implying that the same person who broke the window couldn't have also been the one who left the turd and fingerprints.

And since it was a question directed at him to explain his opinion, I'd appreciate an answer from him, not you.

Oh, okay. :rolleyes: Odd, I usually recognize sarcasm.

This is a public board and anyone is allowed to chime in when they want AFAIK. Please let us all know if the rules have changed. thx:smile:

[dgfred]

Actually, that's called sarcasm. And it was an attempt to get dgfred to explain his bizarre statement implying that the same person who broke the window couldn't have also been the one who left the turd and fingerprints.

And since it was a question directed at him to explain his opinion, I'd appreciate an answer from him, not you.

Funny that is not what I posted. I asked why RG would STAGE a break-in, but leave a turd in the toilet and clean up some prints... but leave plenty of others. The point was it is a staged break-in! Who would benefit from it 'looking' like a burgler broke in and sexually assaulted MK (the moved body, cut bra and pants removed actually bringing attention to it)??? NOT RG. Maybe the person(s) that let him in the cottage in the first place.
Maybe RG was not a part of the actual murder, but did assault her.
Maybe AK/RS did not have a part in the actual murder, but did let RG in and did physically assault her a bit, so the clean up and lying.

Maybe one of them will tell us soon.

[Emerald]

It's embarrassing as an American what is being done in the name of the convicted criminal, Amanda Knox, and not a single mention of the suffering she caused her victim, Meredith Kercher.

The $$$ spent by the Knox Family, was a choice they made. Amanda could put a stop to it, but chooses not to.

Meredith Kercher did choose the heinous crimes against her.

Amanda's choices are her personal responsibiity.

Instead of giving to the Family of the convicted criminal, Amanda Knox, donate to a Haiti relief charity in the name of Meredith Kercher. Help those who do not choose their awful circumstance.

[Anton]

I read that when Meredith's bedroom door was knocked down, AK & RS did not bother going in to take a look. They both went straight off to the kitchen and started talking to each other. Unlike the police and Filomena who all went straight in.

[Emerald]

I read that when Meredith's bedroom door was knocked down, AK & RS did not bother going in to take a look. They both went straight off to the kitchen and started talking to each other. Unlike the police and Filomena who all went straight in.


It sure didn't stop Amanda from giving detailed descriptions of the crime scene when she bragged about being the one who found Meredith.

Amanda didn't even bother to go to the memorial the friends of Meredith had organized. She wanted pizza instead. Amanda wrote in a prison diary she would kill for a slice of pizza. She also wrote how funny and incorrect it was the other roomies believed she was their friend. Does that mean if Amanda had the opportunity they would have been murdered as well?

[Jester]

What adaptors are you talking about? The power adapter I have for my laptop accepts 100-240V. That way you can use it in the US (110) UK (240V) or Continental Europe (220V). Electronic companies have done this for years. Laptops, Ipods. Phone chargers, whatever. Are you talking about the little plugs that allow you to plug a US plug into a European plug? These just change the shape of the plug, and have nothing to do with Voltage.

Interesting. I had a child that was studying overseas a few years ago and she needed an adaptor. My electronics don't automatically come with voltage adaptors.

[Jester]

Exaggerate much? She wrote one letter in which she says she doesn't think she was at the crime scene, but was confused by the police having hard evidence proving the contrary.

From the letter she wrote after the interrogation:

The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.

Not aware of letters she wrote showing "complete disregard for the victim", but if you'd like to enlighten me I'm all ears. But I have to be honest and say that I'm not expecting anything except more out-of-context quotes and exaggeration like the pizza statement you quoted. I mean, really, "I'd kill for a pizza" is incriminating? No wonder she's in jail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

Amanda stands behind the claims she made regarding Patrick in her home. This means that she still claims that Patrick was at the cottage and was attacking Meredith while she stood in the kitchen with her fingers in her ears. How could she possibly have made this statement if she was not there?

"2. I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house."

[Jester]

Yes, I'm saying Rudy broke in to the cottage, stole money, took a ****, and killed Meredith. What are you saying? That Rudy had nothing to do with it?

The break in was staged. No one broke into the cottage. The broken glass was on top of the clothes and laptop that were put on the floor.

Therefore, your theory does not work.

[Jester]

I just quoted for you from Amanda's letter what she wrote in her exact words. But you continue to state the same thing without citing anything. And please cite as well the "details not yet confirmed by investigators". The letter is public so you should have no problem backing this up.

FYI, you can add your line about Amanda being guilty as a signature to your profile. It will save you the time spent writing it at the end of every one of your posts. Especially since it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Amanda's own words place her at the scene of the murder during the murder. That's a bit of a problem.

[Jester]

Actually, that's called sarcasm. And it was an attempt to get dgfred to explain his bizarre statement implying that the same person who broke the window couldn't have also been the one who left the turd and fingerprints.

And since it was a question directed at him to explain his opinion, I'd appreciate an answer from him, not you.

It's not at all absurd. If Rudy wanted to hide the fact that he was there, he would have flushed the toilet. He didn't hide any evidence of being in the cottage. Since he was not hiding the fact that he was in the cottage, why would he stage a break in.

I get the impression that you are assuming that there was a break in. There wasn't. The glass on Filomina's bedroom window was broken after someone trashed her room. Therefore, the break in was staged.

[Emerald]

It's not at all absurd. If Rudy wanted to hide the fact that he was there, he would have flushed the toilet. He didn't hide any evidence of being in the cottage. Since he was not hiding the fact that he was in the cottage, why would he stage a break in.

I get the impression that you are assuming that there was a break in. There wasn't. The glass on Filomina's bedroom window was broken after someone trashed her room. Therefore, the break in was staged.

Filomena's room was trashed. Nothing stolen.

Apparently, the only thing the supposed burglar wanted from Amanda's not pillaged room was the lamp.

Interesting how that works, huh?

[Emerald]

It's embarrassing as an American what is being done in the name of the convicted criminal, Amanda Knox, and not a single mention of the suffering she caused her victim, Meredith Kercher.

The $$$ spent by the Knox Family, was a choice they made. Amanda could put a stop to it, but chooses not to.

Meredith Kercher did >NOT< choose the heinous crimes against her.

Amanda's choices are her personal responsibility.

Instead of giving to the Family of the convicted criminal, Amanda Knox, donate to a Haiti relief charity in the name of Meredith Kercher. Help those who do not choose their awful circumstance.


bumped to correct misstatement.

[TheBitterEnd]

Interesting. I had a child that was studying overseas a few years ago and she needed an adaptor. My electronics don't automatically come with voltage adaptors.

You don't need a voltage adaptor. Why don't you read the cable that you plug into the wall that connects to your laptop, phone charger, Ipod. Somewhere it will tell you the voltage it can handle. It will probably say 100-240V. Do you really think companies making these expensive devices want them blowing up every time somebody goes to Europe? At least you now know what to check should you ever take your electronic devices overseas.

The travel adaptor is to make a US plug, fit into an overseas outlet (different shape) or vice versa. It changes the shape of the plug and has nothing to do with voltage.

[Anton]

The proscutor in this case was on T.V. recently. He said the first thing him and his assoicates thought when investigating the crime scene was that there had been a 'staged break in'. These people are probably used to seeing staged break in's.

Obviously it was badly done, probably because AK, RG & RS were young and did'nt know how to fool the police. Or maybe they did'nt have the time to complete everything.

[Anton]

Not having AK at Meredith's memorial or funeral is'nt surprising. I'm sure Meredith's relatives did'nt want her there.

[TheBitterEnd]

I read that when Meredith's bedroom door was knocked down, AK & RS did not bother going in to take a look. They both went straight off to the kitchen and started talking to each other. Unlike the police and Filomena who all went straight in.

Where is your link? Do you really think Police let Filomena enter and contaminate the crime scene?

The Police didn't even break down the door. Luca Altieri broke down the door. Everybody was ushered away from the room, except Luca testified he saw Battistelli (police) enter the room.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5683711.ece

"But a witness, Luca Altieri, said he had seen Battistelli bend down to lift a duvet that was covering Kercher’s body. "

Later, Luca (who broke down the door and saw the crime scene) and Paulo (not police) drove Amanda and Raffaele to the police head quarters.

[TheBitterEnd]

The proscutor in this case was on T.V. recently. He said the first thing him and his assoicates thought when investigating the crime scene was that there had been a 'staged break in'. These people are probably used to seeing staged break in's.

Obviously it was badly done, probably because AK, RG & RS were young and did'nt know how to fool the police. Or maybe they did'nt have the time to complete everything.

Or maybe Rudy Guede did actually break into the house using a rock. Allegedly somebody had done it a few weeks before.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/5661550/Amanda-Knoxs-defence-lawyers-says-jobless-drifter-alone-murdered-Meredith-Kercher.html

Defence lawyers called as a witness a local solicitor, Paolo Brocchi, who described how, in Oct 2007, an intruder used a rock to smash the window of his office, clamber through it and steal a mobile phone and a laptop computer.

Police arrested Guede a few days later after he broke into a school in Milan, armed with a knife, and found the stolen goods in his possession."

[Anton]

'The Bitter End' I read it on this site on another post. However I can't find the post. All I can say it was the longest post I've ever read.

It's perfectly plausible that Filomena and the police would have entered Meredith's room after breaking the door down. No one knew there was a dead body in there. My natural reaction in that sort of situation would have been to enter the room and have a nose around.

Once the police realised there was a dead body, the room would have been sealed off.

[Emerald]

'The Bitter End' I read it on this site on another post. However I can't find the post. All I can say it was the longest post I've ever read.

It's perfectly plausible that Filomena and the police would have entered Meredith's room after breaking the door down. No one knew there was a dead body in there. My natural reaction in that sort of situation would have been to enter the room and have a nose around.

Once the police realised there was a dead body, the room would have been sealed off.

Amanda knew what was behind the bedroom door before it was forcibly opened.

I'm not convinced RS knew.

[Anton]

Did RS take the witness stand in the trial ? I remember him making an unconvincing speech to the jury. Just like AK did her infamous 'mask of a killer' speech.

I suspect that having both AK & RS taking the stand during the trial would'nt have helped either of them. They were originally working together and providing alibi's for each other. However they've both changed their stories so often their accounts in the witness stand would have been totally different.

It was probably decided to only have the sweeter looking AK try to convince the jury of her innocence.

[Emerald]

IMO, RS had a chance of being found not guilty if the attorneys did not continually connect him to Amanda that night.

I don't believe Amanda was with Raffaele the complete night. Too big a party night for her to miss. She would have been out and about at some point, returning to RS's bed afterward. He liked quiet evenings at home. She liked the parties.

[Emerald]

Amanda is guilty. I do not believe she is a witch or demon. Don't believe she was involved in the actual act of murder. Most definitely she was there. Had the power to stop the heinous atrocity, but chose not to.

Rudy is guilty.

Still having a hard time believing Raffaele's guilt.

I post at the other site so roundly panned by a certain faction. Never have I ever been insulted or asked to leave for my dissenting POV.

[dgfred]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the most digusting of ANY kind. There's a lot of pretty grim stuff on all sorts of happy topics floating around the internet.

However your comments otherwise are pretty accurate. The websites MICHAEL is involved with are essentially clearinghouses for lies, misinformation, and half-truths promoting the cult belief that Amanda Knox is a demon.

And, as with all cults- and as you learned first hand- dissenting views are not exactly welcomed with open arms.

Care to give any example(s) of what you claim in Michaels forum are:
lies?
misinformation?
half-truths?

I doubt you will... or can :rolleyes:

[Emerald]

Unless you are trying to claim that Rudy Guilty wasn't involved in the crimes, then your comments fly in the face of common sense.

I'm sure if you'd given it a bit more thought you'd have realized it doesn't make much sense to claim that someone involved in vicious sex murder wouldn't have wanted to hide the fact that he had been at the crime scene.

:confused:

Rudy doesn't bother to flush the toilet, but stages a break in? I don't believe it for a single second. He did nothing to cover his presence at the crime scene.

On the other hand, there is lots of evidence somebody tried to cover Amanda's presence there. Common sense tells me it was Amanda.

[GossipGirl]

I wonder if the other two didn't just tell him they'd clean-up and sent him off?
Or, if the murder scared him and he ran off?
GG

[Emerald]

Good question, GossipGirl. The answer, I think, depends on one's perception of how the crime went down.

IMO, Amanda was there throughout the commission of the crime. Could have prevented Meredith's death. It was a practical joke identical to the one she was a part of at UW. That's how it started. Sarcasm does not translate well. When it was time to stop, the point was not taken.

I'm not convinced Raffaele was there. Perhaps the bra was a trophy presented to him by Amanda?

Amanda was a party animal. Raffaele was not. The night of the murder was a party night. I don't believe for a single second Amanda would have let the festive night pass in a quiet way.

Several times Amanda admitted being present when the crimes were committed. I might be able to grant her a dispensation of sorts if it was only once. But several? Impossible to explain several away.

Amanda was there. She knew what was behind that bedroom door before it was opened to discover the crime.

[Anton]

I did'nt know AK had been present at other crimes. Are you able to give more details ?

[pixiejoolz]

Good question, GossipGirl. The answer, I think, depends on one's perception of how the crime went down.

IMO, Amanda was there throughout the commission of the crime. Could have prevented Meredith's death. It was a practical joke identical to the one she was a part of at UW. That's how it started. Sarcasm does not translate well. When it was time to stop, the point was not taken.

I'm not convinced Raffaele was there. Perhaps the bra was a trophy presented to him by Amanda?

Amanda was a party animal. Raffaele was not. The night of the murder was a party night. I don't believe for a single second Amanda would have let the festive night pass in a quiet way.

Several times Amanda admitted being present when the crimes were committed. I might be able to grant her a dispensation of sorts if it was only once. But several? Impossible to explain several away.

Amanda was there. She knew what was behind that bedroom door before it was opened to discover the crime.

Emerald, I agree with your theory except the Raffaele part. If he really wasn't there, if he somehow became involved after it was all over, then why wouldn't he try to clear himself by taking responsibility for what he did (which would be pretty minor legally) instead of risking - and receiving - a murder conviction? That just doesn't make sense to me. jmo

[Emerald]

I did'nt know AK had been present at other crimes. Are you able to give more details ?

I don't know that it was a crime at UW. More like a practical joke. Disguising themselves and storming a room.

Sarcasm and jokes don't translate.

I think I'm still trying to understand why Amanda did what she did to Meredith. Considering many scenarios. I don't doubt Amanda's guilt, but "WHY" did she do it?

[uplate]

I don't know that it was a crime at UW. More like a practical joke. Disguising themselves and storming a room.

Sarcasm and jokes don't translate.

I think I'm still trying to understand why Amanda did what she did to Meredith. Considering many scenarios. I don't doubt Amanda's guilt, but "WHY" did she do it?My problem is how and why did a knife get introduced? I can understand how a fight/struggle might ensue, and then somebody winds up choked or with a broken neck, but how did a knife become part of the mix?

[Emerald]

If it was a practical joke, the knives may have been part of the costuming.

[GossipGirl]

Maybe AK just borrowed MK's bra one time, and RS took it off her....
maybe RS was there only for clean-up etc, and not the whole crime?
Maybe AK told him it was The Knife, and that's why he brought it to his house? Maybe they threw out the other knives, and he forgot to throw that one out?
I believe they were not against letting RG go down for the crime, or anyone for that matter, which is why I think she sent the cops in PL's direction, initially.

I think she masterminded the crime. Without her none of it would have happened, and I think she told RS and RG that MK owed her money. It was prolly setup at first to be a robbery and a scare-prank of some sort, possibly in hopes MK would move out, which is why it went towards a rape by RG.
My instincts tell me (for whatever a housewife in NJ's instinct's are worth!!) RG never had any idea it would turn into a murder. I think AK held her down, and ultimately threatened her with a knife, which was then used to kill her after it had all gone way wrong. I think AK and RG knew MK'd call the cops if ever she got free.
My guess is that RG went in first, MK put up a fight, being a karate girl or whatever it is she was, and AK came in to help, and then RS got in on it.
It all got crazy, and MK ended up dead because otherwise she'd rat them all out to the roomates and the police.

JMO
GG

[Jester]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the most digusting of ANY kind. There's a lot of pretty grim stuff on all sorts of happy topics floating around the internet.

However your comments otherwise are pretty accurate. The websites MICHAEL is involved with are essentially clearinghouses for lies, misinformation, and half-truths promoting the cult belief that Amanda Knox is a demon.

And, as with all cults- and as you learned first hand- dissenting views are not exactly welcomed with open arms.

Incorrect. First you are discussing another website on this forum ... not exactly relevant. Secondly, the site you reference contains links to current articles about the case and opinions thereof ... not exactly lies.

[Jester]

Unless you are trying to claim that Rudy Guilty wasn't involved in the crimes, then your comments fly in the face of common sense.

I'm sure if you'd given it a bit more thought you'd have realized it doesn't make much sense to claim that someone involved in vicious sex murder wouldn't have wanted to hide the fact that he had been at the crime scene.

Rudy's last name is Guede. If Rudy Guede wanted to hide the fact that he had been at the crime scene, he would have flushed the toilet, and removed evidence of himself at the crime scene. There is abundant evidence that all three convicted murderers were at the crime scene, and there is an obvious attempt to only hide the evidence implicating Raffaele and Amanda.

Rudy did not try to hide the fact that he was at the scene, so he had no reason to hide the fact that he walked in through the only entrance. He had no reason to stage a break in.

[Jester]

Yes, it's more than likely Rudy was involved in the burglary at the lawyer's office.

Meanwhile, if anyone knows what "the alarm usually switched on in the evenings was not activated" means, please let me know. The fellow that runs the "Amanda is a witch" website previously claimed it was an established FACT that the alarm was turned on that night. But the phrase I quoted seems to suggest that it might not have been.

Whether or not the alarm was or wasn't turned on is one piece of the puzzle in this case.

I haven't come across any "Amanda is a witch" websites. Would you please provide a link to prove that you are stating facts.

[Jester]

Maybe AK just borrowed MK's bra one time, and RS took it off her....
maybe RS was there only for clean-up etc, and not the whole crime?
Maybe AK told him it was The Knife, and that's why he brought it to his house? Maybe they threw out the other knives, and he forgot to throw that one out?
I believe they were not against letting RG go down for the crime, or anyone for that matter, which is why I think she sent the cops in PL's direction, initially.

I think she masterminded the crime. Without her none of it would have happened, and I think she told RS and RG that MK owed her money. It was prolly setup at first to be a robbery and a scare-prank of some sort, possibly in hopes MK would move out, which is why it went towards a rape by RG.
My instincts tell me (for whatever a housewife in NJ's instinct's are worth!!) RG never had any idea it would turn into a murder. I think AK held her down, and ultimately threatened her with a knife, which was then used to kill her after it had all gone way wrong. I think AK and RG knew MK'd call the cops if ever she got free.
My guess is that RG went in first, MK put up a fight, being a karate girl or whatever it is she was, and AK came in to help, and then RS got in on it.
It all got crazy, and MK ended up dead because otherwise she'd rat them all out to the roomates and the police.

JMO
GG

I don't really think that Meredith would lend her underwear to a roommate she hardly knows ... especially one whom she described as parading strange men through the cottage.

[Jester]

The other site is exactly what it is, a bully pulpit. They have insulted too many people to mention. My post was taken down and I was banned in less than three minutes. Incredibly, in those three minutes I received an email from a person who actively reads the site. The person agreed with me, and told me exactly what was going to happen. He stated that who I would be banned and that he has not been banned because he does not post.

As for you, you truly must be clairvoyant. You seem to know exactly what happened in Perugia.

This is sarcasm, of course. I would not want you as a juror, were I attorney for EITHER defense or prosecution.

What website are you talking about?

Do you have any comments about this solved murder?

[Details]

Websites are irrelevant - not the subject, and it's against TOS to make them the subject.

Amanda was convicted by a court and a jury - not by a blog nor website.

[Emerald]

I don't have to be clairvoyant to know Amanda was at the crime scene that night. She was found guilty in a very public trial. Not in some sub rosa, clandestine dark cave. Amanda was not convicted because of a website. Her appeal does not hinge on a website. The detailed transcripts are available.

Rudy Guede was found guilty by the same standards which found Amanda and Raffaele guilty.

I've no doubt about Amanda's guilt. Serious doubts of Raffaele's guilt.

[Emerald]

Maybe they will decide to do the comedy club fundraiser for a worthy cause and not a proved criminal.

I gave donations to the Haiti relief organizations in the name of Meredith. I would have given anyway, but decided to forgo what seems like luxuries (haircut, hamburger instead of steak, etc.) to give for her memory.

All the $$$ the Amanda Knox Family wants us to replace in the Family coffers would be better spent to build a Nation of truly innocent people.

We are the top of the food chain. We MUST help one another. Murderers go to the bottom of the list, IMO.

[Emerald]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8396686.stm

I listened again to Janet Huff (Amanda's Aunt).

The Amanda she described is exactly how Amanda described herself as she sat in the kitchen listening to the heinous crimes being committed against Meredith. She tells obvious lies. For instance, completely denying Amanda's hand written confession accusing Patrick Lumumba.

I did get a giggle as Janet Huff described a hair found at the scene as being that of an African-American. I guess that means Rudy is innocent? Besides that obvious bigoted gaffe, how can the nationality of a person be determined by looking at a single hair? Impossible to determine the race by looking as well.

Innocent people DO get convicted in courts everyday. The difference here is that Amanda has confessed several times. That's what convinced me...... Amanda's own words.

I'm not sure Amanda committed the actual murder. But, I have absolutely no doubt Amanda was there. Instead of helping this person who she professes is a friend, Amanda selfishly chose to do her little 'put upon' act of hitting herself.

Meredith suffered through heinous, painful crimes. Amanda listened and did NOTHING. The practical joke she organized turned ugly.

Amanda Knox is right where she belongs. She is being held responsible for the choices she made. That's the way it should be.

[Anton]

Not sure innocent people get convicted everyday. There has been a few high profile cases where this has happened. Other times convictions are overturned on appeal when new evidence appears or it is proved that previous evidence may have been unreliable. This does'nt mean that the convicted people were always innocent.

There are lots of processes a case goes through before a person is convicted. The police/investigators investigate and have to come up with enough forensic and circmstantial evidence to take it to the courts. The courts then have to decide whether the case should be heard. Then there is then a trial where a jury makes a decision. All this happened in the AK case.

[Emerald]

I'm interested in the forthcoming report as to how the opinion of the court was reached. From what I understand, it will include the details of the evidence which was used to reach the decision of guilty. Also whether the decision was unanimous.

Isn't the report due the end of February or beginning of March?

[Anton]

I've heard conflicting reports about CCTV coverage. Some say it caught AK going to Merediths place on the murder night. Some say it caught AK buying bleach the following morning. Other reports say there was no CCTV evidence.

The walk from RS to Meredith's is a short one. The area does not seem like a busy modern area so it is possible that there are no CCTV camera's. It;s more likely that there was CCTV camera's at the' bleach' shop. Even small shops have CCTV camera's these days. However I don't know how far the distance is from Meredith's to the ' bleach' shop.

[Emerald]

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Knox-prosecutor-convicted-in-unrelated-case-82403897.html

Knox’s stepfather, Chris Mellas, says the charges against Mignini are significant even if they are not related Knox’s case.

"They show that he's willing to break the law in order to do, to pursue his ideas. I think that’s very serious when you consider the fact that he’s one that’s supposed to be upholding the law," said Mellas.

------------------

I don't understand the point Chris Mellas is trying to make. How does this change the evidence against convicted criminal Amanda Knox?

[LisaM22]

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Knox-prosecutor-convicted-in-unrelated-case-82403897.html



------------------

I don't understand the point Chris Mellas is trying to make. How does this change the evidence against convicted criminal Amanda Knox?

well I would say the point he was making is that the prosecutor against Knox was convicted of abuse of power in a previous murder case and that puts in to question how he handled this case imo -- there was no real evidence against Amanda Knox, I think it was the drifter drug dealer that committed the crime, not Amanda Knox

[Emerald]

well I would say the point he was making is that the prosecutor against Knox was convicted of abuse of power in a previous murder case and that puts in to question how he handled this case imo -- there was no real evidence against Amanda Knox, I think it was the drifter drug dealer that committed the crime, not Amanda Knox

IMO

Mignini could not have tipped the evidence for at least 19 Judges throughout the legal process of this case.

Although I do not believe Amanda Knox is guilty of wielding the murder weapon, I DO believe without a doubt she was there and instrumental in the staging before and after the heinous crimes against Meredith Kercher.

My opinions are based on Amanda's several confessions containing information about which the Investigators had not yet concluded. Plus, the knife in Raffaele's apartment which contained only the DNA of Amanda and Meredith.

If DNA of Meredith was in Raffaele's apartment even though she had never been there, how is it possible not one single skin raft of Amanda's DNA appears in the room of an apartment where she lived? Not likely.

Amanda is guilty. She belongs in prison.

I still have serious doubts about Raffaele's guilt.

[LisaM22]

IMO

Mignini could not have tipped the evidence for at least 19 Judges throughout the legal process of this case.<snip>

how many judges involved in the murder trial he was convicted of abuse of power on?

[Emerald]

how many judges involved in the murder trial he was convicted of abuse of power on?

:shrug:


IMO

Translation and definition of a law in Mignini's case cannot be compared to the physical evidence against Amanda.

[pixiejoolz]

IMO

Mignini could not have tipped the evidence for at least 19 Judges throughout the legal process of this case.

Although I do not believe Amanda Knox is guilty of wielding the murder weapon, I DO believe without a doubt she was there and instrumental in the staging before and after the heinous crimes against Meredith Kercher.

My opinions are based on Amanda's several confessions containing information about which the Investigators had not yet concluded. Plus, the knife in Raffaele's apartment which contained only the DNA of Amanda and Meredith.

If DNA of Meredith was in Raffaele's apartment even though she had never been there, how is it possible not one single skin raft of Amanda's DNA appears in the room of an apartment where she lived? Not likely.

Amanda is guilty. She belongs in prison.

I still have serious doubts about Raffaele's guilt.

bbm

You keep posting this opinion and I've asked about this several times and never gotten an answer: if Raffaele is guilty of helping cover up a crime but not participating in the crime itself, why would he not confess to that rather than face a murder charge?

I would really like to know why you think that. Thanks.

[Emerald]

bbm

You keep posting this opinion and I've asked about this several times and never gotten an answer: if Raffaele is guilty of helping cover up a crime but not participating in the crime itself, why would he not confess to that rather than face a murder charge?

I would really like to know why you think that. Thanks.

:shrug:

Just something I surmised from a preponderance of the evidence. That's all there is. Just like the people who insist Amanda is unequivocally innocent.

Amanda knows the truth, but is not speaking. I'd like to know what that conversation was that prompted Edda to immediately fly to Italy, before Amanda was even considered a suspect. That's something neither will ever tell the truth about either.

JMO

[TheBitterEnd]

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Knox-prosecutor-convicted-in-unrelated-case-82403897.html

I don't understand the point Chris Mellas is trying to make. How does this change the evidence against convicted criminal Amanda Knox?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012202458.html


"A Florence court convicted Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and an Italian police investigator of abusing their positions in a 1985 probe into the death of a doctor thought to be involved in a Satanic group."

What part of this don't you think is significant? Mignini and a police investigator are guilty of abusing their positions. If the prosecutor and the police have abused their positions in the past, how can you trust them?

[Emerald]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012202458.html


"A Florence court convicted Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and an Italian police investigator of abusing their positions in a 1985 probe into the death of a doctor thought to be involved in a Satanic group."

What part of this don't you think is significant? Mignini and a police investigator are guilty of abusing their positions. If the prosecutor and the police have abused their positions in the past, how can you trust them?

How do you equate illegally tapping phone lines to the physical evidence against Amanda?

Apples and oranges.

[Emerald]

We can go 'round and 'round about the same evidence and come to different conclusions.

Amanda told lie after lie. She gave a detailed description of being present when Patrick Lumumba committed the crime. He was not there, but the details prove to me Amanda was there.

Amanda did not testify in the crimes against Meredith portion of her trial, but in the libel portion against PL. Those statements are filled with lie after lie. How do I know they were lies? Because consecutive statements contradict one another. Amanda's attorney allowed the rambling for some reason. It was Raffaele's attorney who tried to put a stop to it.

I believe without a doubt Amanda is right where she belongs. I also don't ever expect her to tell the truth.

Years from now, someone in her Family (not yet born) hearing the tales will decide to write a thesis or book. Truth will be told. Things the Family is now trying to cover will be on full display. Giggles will be heard about the style of dress and hair and the constant "you know" videos. Too bad I won't be around to see/read it.

JMO

[TheBitterEnd]

How do you equate illegally tapping phone lines to the physical evidence against Amanda?

Apples and oranges.

I am equating abuse of power with abuse of power.

[Emerald]

I am equating abuse of power with abuse of power.

:confused:

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but how can actual physical evidence against Amanda be abuse of power by Mignini?

[TheBitterEnd]

:confused:

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but how can actual physical evidence against Amanda be abuse of power by Mignini?

It's not just Prosecutor Mignini that has been found guilty, it's also the Police Investigator that led the previous investigation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7054739/Amanda-Knox-prosecutor-convicted.html

"The court in Florence also convicted on similar charges Michele Giuttari, the police officer who led the investigation into the Monster of Florence murders. "

If the prosecutor and the police working with this prosecutor have abused their positions in the past, how can you trust them? Especially when illegal interrogations are being held, evidence is being damaged and eye witnesses are mysteriously coming forward months after the crime.

[pixiejoolz]

:shrug:

Just something I surmised from a preponderance of the evidence. That's all there is. Just like the people who insist Amanda is unequivocally innocent.

Amanda knows the truth, but is not speaking. I'd like to know what that conversation was that prompted Edda to immediately fly to Italy, before Amanda was even considered a suspect. That's something neither will ever tell the truth about either.

JMO

I completely agree with you about Amanda, but I just can't wrap my head around the idea of Rafaelle not telling the truth if all he did was help cover the murder up. That "all he did" doesn't mean I take that act lightly, but compared to actually committing a murder, it certainly doesn't compare in legal guilt or in - I would think - length of sentence.

I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened unless one of the three decides to actually tell the truth. jmo

[Emerald]

Are you suggesting Amanda's sentence should be overturned because of this?

Should the prison be emptied of every single criminal Mignini was instrumental in having convicted? Or just Amanda?

[TheBitterEnd]

Are you suggesting Amanda's sentence should be overturned because of this?

Should the prison be emptied of every single criminal Mignini was instrumental in having convicted? Or just Amanda?

I'd suggest that a prosecutor pending indictment for abuse of office, should not have been allowed to interrogate or prosecute anybody.

I'd suggest some sort of independent investigation into his subsequent cases, including this one.

Chief prosecutor Mignini's hands are all over this case. From the interrogation to the sex game gone wrong theory, to the trial itself. If he goes to jail for abuse of office, I'd expect there to be some sort of fall out. At the very least it's going to help the pending appeals by AK and RS. JMO.

[Emerald]

Mignini was not present when Amanda gave her statements regarding Patrick Lumumba. The Police would not accept it until Amanda insisted on writing it in her own hand. At that time, Mignini was summoned to the police station.

It was Amanda's insistence that required Mignini's presence.

Amanda is undoubtedly guilty. Since she opted out of the fast track trial, there is no reason her sentence should be decreased.

It will be interesting how many of the jurists voted "guilty". The forthcoming report will reveal lots of details.

[TheBitterEnd]

Mignini was not present when Amanda gave her statements regarding Patrick Lumumba. The Police would not accept it until Amanda insisted on writing it in her own hand. At that time, Mignini was summoned to the police station.

It was Amanda's insistence that required Mignini's presence.



I do not think this is true. There were 2 police interrogations early in the morning on 11/6. One starting at 1:45am and the second started at 5:45am.

Mignini was at the second interrogation at 5:45 am. He came in after police halted the 1:45am interrogation. This is from the testimony indicating when Police halted the 1st declaration:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/sh...d.php?t=356199
In the last line of the usable declaration from 1:45. "I met Patrick
immediately afterwards in the basketball court of Piazza Grimana."

Why is a prosecutor involved in interviewing a Police Witness? If it's b/c the witness is a suspect, why is there no lawyer present and why isn't anything taped? The hand written statement came after the interrogation involving Mignini.

[pixiejoolz]

I do not think this is true. There were 2 police interrogations early in the morning on 11/6. One starting at 1:45am and the second started at 5:45am.

Mignini was at the second interrogation at 5:45 am. He came in after police halted the 1:45am interrogation. This is from the testimony indicating when Police halted the 1st declaration:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/sh...d.php?t=356199
In the last line of the usable declaration from 1:45. "I met Patrick
immediately afterwards in the basketball court of Piazza Grimana."

Why is a prosecutor involved in interviewing a Police Witness? If it's b/c the witness is a suspect, why is there no lawyer present and why isn't anything taped? The hand written statement came after the interrogation involving Mignini.

bbm
Apparently because Knox demanded that he be present.

The link you gave is broken, so the fact that there is a four hour gap in between interrogations and that the police wouldn't accept her written statement until Mignini was present seems to support exactly what the OP says.

jmo

[TheBitterEnd]

bbm
Apparently because Knox demanded that he be present.

The link you gave is broken, so the fact that there is a four hour gap in between interrogations and that the police wouldn't accept her written statement until Mignini was present seems to support exactly what the OP says.

jmo

Amanda Knox did not ask or demand to be interrogated by Prosecutor Mignini.

The 2 interrogations were early in the morning at 1:45am and 5:45am.

The interrogation/declaration at 5:45 was with Prosecutor Mignini. This is before the hand written memorandum.

Here is a link to the testimony about the interrogations/declarations and memorandum: http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356199

The hand written memorandum was after the interrogations. How could it be written before the interrogations when it's purpose was to express doubts about the declarations from the 2 interrogations?

Here is a link to a copy of the note
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6.

[pixiejoolz]

Amanda Knox did not ask or demand to be interrogated by Prosecutor Mignini.

The 2 interrogations were early in the morning at 1:45am and 5:45am.

The interrogation/declaration at 5:45 was with Prosecutor Mignini. This is before the hand written memorandum.

Here is a link to the testimony about the interrogations/declarations and memorandum: http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356199

The hand written memorandum was after the interrogations. How could it be written before the interrogations when it's purpose was to express doubts about the declarations from the 2 interrogations?

Here is a link to a copy of the note
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6.

Sorry, while I've followed this case I haven't followed it as slavishly as some of you on this thread have, so I am completely confused by your post. The first link is to testimony about the interrogations long after the actual interrogations, so it doesn't prove anything to me one way or the other.

Regarding the handwritten note, how did Amanda Knox already know that Rafaelle had "lied" and tried to implicate her?

[TheBitterEnd]

Sorry, while I've followed this case I haven't followed it as slavishly as some of you on this thread have, so I am completely confused by your post. The first link is to testimony about the interrogations long after the actual interrogations, so it doesn't prove anything to me one way or the other.

Regarding the handwritten note, how did Amanda Knox already know that Rafaelle had "lied" and tried to implicate her?

My original purpose of linking to the testimony was to show that Mignini was involved in the interrogations BEFORE the hand written note.

Whether you believe the testimony is true or not is your personal choice. If you read it explains how during interrogations, Police told her that Raffaele was saying that she had gone out of the house, how Police focused on the text message to Patrick that said "See you Later". How Police asked her to "Try to find these memories that obviously you have somehow lost" and hit her on the back of the head to help her remember... etc.

I think Police went down the wrong track from the start. They jumped all over the "See you later" text message from Amanda to Patrick and the case spiraled off course from there. JMO.

[Nile]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012202458.html


"A Florence court convicted Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and an Italian police investigator of abusing their positions in a 1985 probe into the death of a doctor thought to be involved in a Satanic group."

What part of this don't you think is significant? Mignini and a police investigator are guilty of abusing their positions. If the prosecutor and the police have abused their positions in the past, how can you trust them?

I completely agree. These convictions add credence to the fact that Mignini is a corrupt attorney and the police investigator a corrupt cop who will do or say anything to win a case. I hope that these convictions will add ammo to Amanda and Raffaele's upcoming appeal. They didn't do the crime so they shouldn't do the crime.

[Jester]

well I would say the point he was making is that the prosecutor against Knox was convicted of abuse of power in a previous murder case and that puts in to question how he handled this case imo -- there was no real evidence against Amanda Knox, I think it was the drifter drug dealer that committed the crime, not Amanda Knox
There has been no abuse of power in the Knox case. The prosecutor was against the police in his trial. Are we to now think that the prosecutor is colluding with the police? Seems like a bit of a contradiction in reasoning ... but what do I know. Anything is possible, maybe.

Any thoughts on how Amanda and Meredith mixed their DNA on a Q-tip, a sink drain, and in Filomina's room (think I read about a footprint). Any thoughts on how Amanda knew that Meredith bled to death after a sexual attack, or heard a scream heard by others, if she was not there?

[Jester]

IMO

Mignini could not have tipped the evidence for at least 19 Judges throughout the legal process of this case.

Although I do not believe Amanda Knox is guilty of wielding the murder weapon, I DO believe without a doubt she was there and instrumental in the staging before and after the heinous crimes against Meredith Kercher.

My opinions are based on Amanda's several confessions containing information about which the Investigators had not yet concluded. Plus, the knife in Raffaele's apartment which contained only the DNA of Amanda and Meredith.

If DNA of Meredith was in Raffaele's apartment even though she had never been there, how is it possible not one single skin raft of Amanda's DNA appears in the room of an apartment where she lived? Not likely.

Amanda is guilty. She belongs in prison.

I still have serious doubts about Raffaele's guilt.

Not guilty of what? Knowing about the murder? Participating in the clean up? If he was innocent of the murder, but had participated in the clean up, or a cover-up for Amanda, he would have the common sense to step forward and reduce his sentence by being a love struck man who wasn't sure what he was dealing with, and helped his brand new girlfriend. That simply doesn't make sense to me. He had known her for 10 days to 2 weeks. If he had not participated in the murder, but did participate in the clean up to the extent that there was abundant DNA of his on Meredith's bra, then there was a little more going on than clean-up. An innocent, University educated son of a urologist, and privileged son, would have done the right thing ... if his father could have kept him out of this, he would have. The problem is that Raffaele has every advantage if he is innocent, but instead he has remained silent, could be feigning a mental defect, and sits in jail saying "papa, when will they let me out?" Sure ... dramatic ... then he says "my Amanda is innocent." Then we hear he's completing degrees behind bars.

[Jester]

:shrug:

Just something I surmised from a preponderance of the evidence. That's all there is. Just like the people who insist Amanda is unequivocally innocent.

Amanda knows the truth, but is not speaking. I'd like to know what that conversation was that prompted Edda to immediately fly to Italy, before Amanda was even considered a suspect. That's something neither will ever tell the truth about either.

JMO

Amanda was being questioned as a witness because she lived at the murder scene address, was present when the body was found, and couldn't give a straight answer ... perhaps even to her mother ... and maybe that prompted Edda to get on a plane. It could be that Edda knows her daughter better than she lets on, and immediately knew it was bad.

Wouldn't most parents say "good luck with it, and let me know if I can do anything." I might say something like that.

[Jester]

If you want to believe that all they did was illegally tap phones go ahead.

Which physical evidence are you talking about?

The interrogation held with Prosecutor Mignini where Amanda Knox was questioned at 5:45am with no sleep, no lawyer, no taping and hit on the back of the head?

The computer hard drives damaged by police experts?

The contaminated Bra Strap Found 47 days later?

The DNA on the knife questioned in an open letter signed by nine U.S. experts in DNA.

Eye Witnesses showing up months later?

The US experts looked at the results and claimed they required more DNA information to complete an analysis, so they could not confirm the match. This group computer analyzes DNA charts, and concluded that their testing methods required more information for interpretation. The test results presented during the trial were completed manually, by lab techs, and did result in a very accurate match. I can post images if you're interested.

The prosecutor was accused of tapping the phones of the police. This means, in his trial, that he and police are adversarial. Is the continuation of this line of reasoning that the prosecutor is also adversarial with the police in the Knox murder conviction? I haven't heard that. We can suspect him of doing the same thing, but we can't suspect him of everything. He tapped Amanda's phone call with her mother. Was that an Abuse of Power of Office? Probably not ... but maybe it is when tapping the phone of the police.

Furthermore, is it likely that he would abuse the "Power of Office" and have phones tapped while he is in a high profile trial with international parties.

If anything, police and prosecutor agree on the facts of the case, and no one appears to have any reason to tap phones.

There is no evidence of contamination.

[Jester]

I am equating abuse of power with abuse of power.

That would be Abuse of Power of Office, not abuse of power.

[Jester]

It's not just Prosecutor Mignini that has been found guilty, it's also the Police Investigator that led the previous investigation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7054739/Amanda-Knox-prosecutor-convicted.html

"The court in Florence also convicted on similar charges Michele Giuttari, the police officer who led the investigation into the Monster of Florence murders. "

If the prosecutor and the police working with this prosecutor have abused their positions in the past, how can you trust them? Especially when illegal interrogations are being held, evidence is being damaged and eye witnesses are mysteriously coming forward months after the crime.

Bugging the phones of journalists? Listening to the chatter without permission. Did the journalists know anything about the murder, or were they simply interfering with the investigation ... with a kind of arrogance that they would solve the case. Didn't some American writer named Preston try to cash in on a book about the murders and then get run out of town by the prosecutor?

I guess the journalists weren't saying anything interesting, because the story is that no one was arrested. In spite of media claims that the case was never solved, there was a documentary about the conviction of one of the suspects. He died before the appeal. There have been no murders since his death.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/monster_florence/10.html

Is Preston one of the journalists that got bugged, and is this whole trial against the prosecutor connected with Preston?

[Jester]

I'd suggest that a prosecutor pending indictment for abuse of office, should not have been allowed to interrogate or prosecute anybody.

I'd suggest some sort of independent investigation into his subsequent cases, including this one.

Chief prosecutor Mignini's hands are all over this case. From the interrogation to the sex game gone wrong theory, to the trial itself. If he goes to jail for abuse of office, I'd expect there to be some sort of fall out. At the very least it's going to help the pending appeals by AK and RS. JMO.

Abuse of Power of Office and abuse of power are quite different. I think it's an important distinction, since he was convicted of tapping phones of journalists without permission, not torturing witnesses.

[Jester]

I do not think this is true. There were 2 police interrogations early in the morning on 11/6. One starting at 1:45am and the second started at 5:45am.

Mignini was at the second interrogation at 5:45 am. He came in after police halted the 1:45am interrogation. This is from the testimony indicating when Police halted the 1st declaration:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/sh...d.php?t=356199
In the last line of the usable declaration from 1:45. "I met Patrick
immediately afterwards in the basketball court of Piazza Grimana."

Why is a prosecutor involved in interviewing a Police Witness? If it's b/c the witness is a suspect, why is there no lawyer present and why isn't anything taped? The hand written statement came after the interrogation involving Mignini.

Your timelines are off.

The first interrogation started at about 11 or 11:30 and finished at 1:45 ish. The second one began due to Amanda's insistence, even though she was now a suspect, at 3:45 ish and ended at 5:45 ish. This amounts to a total of 4.5 hours; half of which were at the request of an arrested person's. Some have said that this lasted 41 hours, but that's impossible. Amanda was not at Meredith's memorial the night before, but was eating pizza with RS until about 10, when police asked him to go to the police station. Amanda was not asked to attend, but she did. Between 10 and 11:30 ish, Amanda flipped cartwheels and splitzed, got told off, was asked some questions, and was eventually questioned as a witness.

The prosecutor was called in during the night that Amanda was arrested because a decision had to made as to whether to arrest Amanda, the witness. Apparently the prosecutor couldn't come to a decision in the middle of the night over the phone, so he went to the police station to see what was going on. He decided to arrest based on statements that were later somewhat suppressed by the court.

Much of what was recorded or written was not admissible in court, and is probably suppressed in the public as well. It could be very incriminating. The fact that Amanda's confession is not publicly available on tape does not mean it did not happen, only that Amanda does not want this information released and has successfully argued that it be suppressed in court.

[Jester]

I completely agree. These convictions add credence to the fact that Mignini is a corrupt attorney and the police investigator a corrupt cop who will do or say anything to win a case. I hope that these convictions will add ammo to Amanda and Raffaele's upcoming appeal. They didn't do the crime so they shouldn't do the crime.

I don't think we can go from Abuse of Power of Office, in tapping journalist's phones, to corrupt attorney that fast.

The prosecutor apparently tapped phones of journalists without a wiretap application. It seems to have really upset a couple of journalists ... wonder what happened. I wonder if they were Italian journalists, or whether they were from some other country.

[Emerald]

Amanda was being questioned as a witness because she lived at the murder scene address, was present when the body was found, and couldn't give a straight answer ... perhaps even to her mother ... and maybe that prompted Edda to get on a plane. It could be that Edda knows her daughter better than she lets on, and immediately knew it was bad.

Wouldn't most parents say "good luck with it, and let me know if I can do anything." I might say something like that.

Edda would not have flown to Italy without the knowledge of Amanda. We know Edda knew the truth about Patrick Lumumba, but did nothing to free him. What else does/did she know?

JMO.... Edda is lucky she is not sharing a cell for that extra year Amanda is serving for lying.

Meredith's Family has shown the utmost class in not posing those questions to Edda.

In their post-trial presser, Meredith's brother said they had been privvy to evidence not shown in court. Anyone know what that was?

[pixiejoolz]

Your timelines are off.

The first interrogation started at about 11 or 11:30 and finished at 1:45 ish. The second one began due to Amanda's insistence, even though she was now a suspect, at 3:45 ish and ended at 5:45 ish. This amounts to a total of 4.5 hours; half of which were at the request of an arrested person's. Some have said that this lasted 41 hours, but that's impossible. Amanda was not at Meredith's memorial the night before, but was eating pizza with RS until about 10, when police asked him to go to the police station. Amanda was not asked to attend, but she did. Between 10 and 11:30 ish, Amanda flipped cartwheels and splitzed, got told off, was asked some questions, and was eventually questioned as a witness.

The prosecutor was called in during the night that Amanda was arrested because a decision had to made as to whether to arrest Amanda, the witness. Apparently the prosecutor couldn't come to a decision in the middle of the night over the phone, so he went to the police station to see what was going on. He decided to arrest based on statements that were later somewhat suppressed by the court.

Much of what was recorded or written was not admissible in court, and is probably suppressed in the public as well. It could be very incriminating. The fact that Amanda's confession is not publicly available on tape does not mean it did not happen, only that Amanda does not want this information released and has successfully argued that it be suppressed in court.

Thank you for the clarification, Jester. I thought there was something wrong with OP's timeline, but wasn't sure what it was; and I knew that the prosecutor had been called there for a reason - again, wasn't sure what it was. :thumbup:

[Emerald]

Thank you for the clarification, Jester. I thought there was something wrong with OP's timeline, but wasn't sure what it was; and I knew that the prosecutor had been called there for a reason - again, wasn't sure what it was. :thumbup:

JMO....

There will be a lot of indisputable clarification from the report due out soon. Can't remember the legal name of it, but it's the report which verifies why the jury decided like it did in deliberation. Don't know if it names the jurors with their vote, but the report will indicate how many concluded "guilty".

[TheBitterEnd]

There is no evidence of contamination.

You don't think the bra clasp is contaminated? It was left at the crime scene for 47 days. It was moved around the crime scene and it contained the DNA of multiple people that matched neither of the suspects.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641303384

[TheBitterEnd]

Your timelines are off.

How is my timeline off? Is it b/c I said the interrogations started at 1:45am and 5:45am when in fact they ended at 1:45am and 5:45am? If so, thanks for clearing that up, but my only point was to prove that Mignini was interrogating Knox before the hand written statement.


It could be very incriminating. The fact that Amanda's confession is not publicly available on tape does not mean it did not happen, only that Amanda does not want this information released and has successfully argued that it be suppressed in court.

First time I have heard this. Care to link to a credible source that suggests the defense does not want the interrogation tapes? I read that The police have never produced a video tape, audio tape or a transcript of the interrogation, despite many demands from the defence. At first they said they had lost the tape; later they said there was no tape.

[TheBitterEnd]

I don't think we can go from Abuse of Power of Office, in tapping journalist's phones, to corrupt attorney that fast.

The prosecutor apparently tapped phones of journalists without a wiretap application. It seems to have really upset a couple of journalists ... wonder what happened. I wonder if they were Italian journalists, or whether they were from some other country.

Here is the letter written by the Committee to Protect journalists when Prosecutor Mignini had the Police arrest journalist Mario Spezi (Italian Journalist) in 2006

http://cpj.org/2006/04/crime-journalists-imprisonment-raises-alarm.php

"Mignini filed a request with the preliminary investigation judge of Perugia, Marina De Robertis, to invoke a rarely used law under Italy's criminal code to deny Spezi access to a lawyer for five days"


"In 2001, Florence police and Perugia prosecutors, including Giuttari and Mignini, resurrected the "Monster of Florence" criminal probe after the emergence of what they called a new lead. They proposed a new theory that said the murders were committed not by a sole killer but by members of a Satanic sect who used body parts from the killings as ritual offerings, the AP said."

Anything sound familiar? Noticing any trends in the 2 cases?

[Emerald]

You don't think the bra clasp is contaminated? It was left at the crime scene for 47 days. It was moved around the crime scene and it contained the DNA of multiple people that matched neither of the suspects.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641303384

I don't understand the insistence by Amanda's Family that not one speck of her DNA is at the crime scene; yet, the bra is contaminated with DNA of a person who does not even live there?

Meredith's DNA was at Raffaele's apartment and she hadnever even visited there.

[Jester]

Edda would not have flown to Italy without the knowledge of Amanda. We know Edda knew the truth about Patrick Lumumba, but did nothing to free him. What else does/did she know?

JMO.... Edda is lucky she is not sharing a cell for that extra year Amanda is serving for lying.

Meredith's Family has shown the utmost class in not posing those questions to Edda.

In their post-trial presser, Meredith's brother said they had been privvy to evidence not shown in court. Anyone know what that was?

It's appalling that Edda went along with Amanda and left Patrick in jail for two weeks ... giving the lame excuse that because she didn't speak Italian, she too couldn't tell police the truth.

I suspect you're right, and Edda knows something more ... perhaps from that very first 4 AM phone call from Amanda to Edda, the phone call Amanda denied making. The timing of booking the flight would be interesting ... was it that morning, or a couple of days later.

[Jester]

You don't think the bra clasp is contaminated? It was left at the crime scene for 47 days. It was moved around the crime scene and it contained the DNA of multiple people that matched neither of the suspects.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641303384

I would need a reason to believe that one particular piece of evidence against Raffaele was contaminated. There is no evidence of it, and no reason to believe it. DNA does not fly, there was abundant DNA on the bra clasp, and there must be proof of contamination before it can be believed. It's not an option to throw around allegations of contamination simply because one doesn't like the results.

In the contamination theory, are we to believe the DNA evidence for Rudy was also contaminated, or was there selective contamination?

[Emerald]

Here is the letter written by the Committee to Protect journalists when Prosecutor Mignini had the Police arrest journalist Mario Spezi (Italian Journalist) in 2006

http://cpj.org/2006/04/crime-journalists-imprisonment-raises-alarm.php

"Mignini filed a request with the preliminary investigation judge of Perugia, Marina De Robertis, to invoke a rarely used law under Italy's criminal code to deny Spezi access to a lawyer for five days"


"In 2001, Florence police and Perugia prosecutors, including Giuttari and Mignini, resurrected the "Monster of Florence" criminal probe after the emergence of what they called a new lead. They proposed a new theory that said the murders were committed not by a sole killer but by members of a Satanic sect who used body parts from the killings as ritual offerings, the AP said."

Anything sound familiar? Noticing any trends in the 2 cases?

Whatever trend you may be referring to I don't see. Nor do I understand how any foibles of the Prosecutor change the physical evidence of Amanda's participation in the heinous crimes against Meredith.

[Emerald]

I would need a reason to believe that one particular piece of evidence against Raffaele was contaminated. There is no evidence of it, and no reason to believe it. DNA does not fly, there was abundant DNA on the bra clasp, and there must be proof of contamination before it can be believed. It's not an option to throw around allegations of contamination simply because one doesn't like the results.

In the contamination theory, are we to believe the DNA evidence for Rudy was also contaminated, or was there selective contamination?

"selective contamination"

:thumbsup:

[Jester]

How is my timeline off? Is it b/c I said the interrogations started at 1:45am and 5:45am when in fact they ended at 1:45am and 5:45am? If so, thanks for clearing that up, but my only point was to prove that Mignini was interrogating Knox before the hand written statement.




First time I have heard this. Care to link to a credible source that suggests the defense does not want the interrogation tapes? I read that The police have never produced a video tape, audio tape or a transcript of the interrogation, despite many demands from the defence. At first they said they had lost the tape; later they said there was no tape.

Amanda demanded to be heard in the middle of the night, and she was. The following morning, after her arrest, and after falsely implicating Patrick, she asked for paper so she could put her lies in writing. Then, she again falsely accused Patrick.

I'm only speculating about why transcripts of Amanda's confession have not surfaced. We know that Amanda's lawyer made an argument to have anything she said prior to becoming a suspect suppressed. It was. It seems odd to now wonder why that same information is not available.

[Jester]

Here is the letter written by the Committee to Protect journalists when Prosecutor Mignini had the Police arrest journalist Mario Spezi (Italian Journalist) in 2006

http://cpj.org/2006/04/crime-journalists-imprisonment-raises-alarm.php

"Mignini filed a request with the preliminary investigation judge of Perugia, Marina De Robertis, to invoke a rarely used law under Italy's criminal code to deny Spezi access to a lawyer for five days"


"In 2001, Florence police and Perugia prosecutors, including Giuttari and Mignini, resurrected the "Monster of Florence" criminal probe after the emergence of what they called a new lead. They proposed a new theory that said the murders were committed not by a sole killer but by members of a Satanic sect who used body parts from the killings as ritual offerings, the AP said."

Anything sound familiar? Noticing any trends in the 2 cases?

No, I don't notice any trends. I did notice this though: "Spezi, 60, a journalist for 30 years, had for two decades been investigating the serial murders of eight couples in Tuscany." A law on record was used when this writer, who confused himself with a murder investigator, involved himself in an unsolved murder investigation. The murders did involve mutilation ... something which has been associated with all sorts of things, including cultish, or ritualistic, activities.

[pixiejoolz]

JMO....

There will be a lot of indisputable clarification from the report due out soon. Can't remember the legal name of it, but it's the report which verifies why the jury decided like it did in deliberation. Don't know if it names the jurors with their vote, but the report will indicate how many concluded "guilty".

Good, I can't wait to read it!

[Jester]

We all want the guilty punished. But blinders don't help matters.

Quite true. Turning oneself into a pretzel to avoid accepting the facts of the case, including the DNA evidence, is a bit like wearing a full helmet, not just blinders.

[Jester]

Let's assume guilt, which I concede is likely. In this event it is a really bad strategic blunder to allow this prosecutor to be involved in the case, given his legal problems and prior reliance on satanic cults as theory.

Much better for the prosecution not to allow him near the case.

I don't know anything about other cases in Italy. I have only followed this case because a woman from Seattle murdered a woman from England in Italy.

The prosecutor tapped the phones of journalists for some reason. I don't know the reason, I don't know which journalists were involved, and I don't know if any good information was learned from tapping the journalist's phones. What I do know is that I cannot assume that Abuse of Power of Office ... in terms of tapping phones without the proper wiretap application ... means the prosecutor is corrupt, or that he has made an error in all the cases that he has tried. For some reason, the Italians do not appear to be concerned about retrying all the cases tried by this prosecutor even if he is guilty.

I also know that a novelist, a rather bad one, named Preston has tried to inject himself into the Knox case. Perhaps he thinks he can sell more novels by this association. Preston appears fixated on satanic rituals and has tried to say that the Knox case is connected with a satanic ritual. I have not read any source, except Preston, making allegations about satanic rituals. It's not surprising that this novelist is trying to blur reality with his fiction.

[TheBitterEnd]

I also know that a novelist, a rather bad one, named Preston has tried to inject himself into the Knox case. Perhaps he thinks he can sell more novels by this association. Preston appears fixated on satanic rituals and has tried to say that the Knox case is connected with a satanic ritual. I have not read any source, except Preston, making allegations about satanic rituals. It's not surprising that this novelist is trying to blur reality with his fiction.

You have your facts wrong. The prosecutors are the ones connecting the Knox case to Satanic rituals

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4968044.ece

"Italian prosecutors yesterday accused Amanda Knox of stabbing to death the Leeds Univeristy exchange student Meredith Kercher in a satanic ritual"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/masonic-theory-that-put-knox-in-the-dock-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him (Mignini) telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

[Emerald]

We all want the guilty punished. But blinders don't help matters.



Just one of those perspective thingies I guess. IMO, it is those who choose to ignore the blatant physical evidence against Amanda are the ones wearing the blinders.

The Prosecutors legal problems do not change the facts of the evidence which makes Amanda guilty of committing heinous crimes against Meredith Kercher.

[TheBitterEnd]

It's not an option to throw around allegations of contamination simply because one doesn't like the results.


Nothing to do with like/dislike. I simply don't trust evidence that was kicked around the crime scene and not collected for 47 days and found to contain traces of DNA from at least 2 other unidentified people.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/08/48hours/main4929950_page3.shtml

Kobilinsky tells Van Sant that those procedures and protocols were not followed when it came to that bra clasp. Incredibly, it was left on the floor by the CSI team even though they videotaped it.

"Big mistake, should have been collected," he says.

And when the bra clasp was finally collected, Kobilinsky notices on the video that, "we have people handling the item. It's placed on the ground, it's then picked up. No instruments are used to handle the object. There could be a transfer of evidence, a transfer of DNA, for example, onto that item by any of those individuals. So this was just not handled properly."

[Jester]

You have your facts wrong. The prosecutors are the ones connecting the Knox case to Satanic rituals

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4968044.ece

"Italian prosecutors yesterday accused Amanda Knox of stabbing to death the Leeds Univeristy exchange student Meredith Kercher in a satanic ritual"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/masonic-theory-that-put-knox-in-the-dock-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him (Mignini) telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

Raffaele's lawyer and Preston say something about a satanic rite, and then attribute those words to the prosecutor, but the prosecutor is not quoted as saying it.

"According to Mignini and Giuttari, Narducci “had been murdered because he was a member of the satanic sect behind the Monster of Florence killings,” Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi write in their book on the Monster affair ..."

"The prosecutors “laid out a scenario like from some crime novel”, Sollecito’s lawyer Luca Maori said. He added that they “alleged it was some kind of satanic rite, with Amanda allegedly first touching Meredith with the point of a knife, then slitting her throat, while Sollecito held her by the shoulders, from behind, Guede held her by an arm” and tried to sexually assault her."

[Jester]

Nothing to do with like/dislike. I simply don't trust evidence that was kicked around the crime scene and not collected for 47 days and found to contain traces of DNA from at least 2 other unidentified people.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/08/48hours/main4929950_page3.shtml

Kobilinsky tells Van Sant that those procedures and protocols were not followed when it came to that bra clasp. Incredibly, it was left on the floor by the CSI team even though they videotaped it.

"Big mistake, should have been collected," he says.

And when the bra clasp was finally collected, Kobilinsky notices on the video that, "we have people handling the item. It's placed on the ground, it's then picked up. No instruments are used to handle the object. There could be a transfer of evidence, a transfer of DNA, for example, onto that item by any of those individuals. So this was just not handled properly."

Arm chair talking heads in a foreign country and unfamiliar with Italian law ... not relevant to the case.

[Jester]

Wanna bet?

Care to put your money where your mouth is?

Please elaborate.

[pixiejoolz]

Wanna bet?

Care to put your money where your mouth is?

Is that seriously your response to a poster asking you to provide specific examples of lies, misinformation and half-truths in Michaels forum? That makes it seem as if you either can't or won't provide the information. :shrug:
jmo of course

[TheBitterEnd]

Raffaele's lawyer and Preston say something about a satanic rite, and then attribute those words to the prosecutor, but the prosecutor is not quoted as saying it.

"According to Mignini and Giuttari, Narducci “had been murdered because he was a member of the satanic sect behind the Monster of Florence killings,” Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi write in their book on the Monster affair ..."

"The prosecutors “laid out a scenario like from some crime novel”, Sollecito’s lawyer Luca Maori said. He added that they “alleged it was some kind of satanic rite, with Amanda allegedly first touching Meredith with the point of a knife, then slitting her throat, while Sollecito held her by the shoulders, from behind, Guede held her by an arm” and tried to sexually assault her."

What part of the quote i gave you stating what the Il Tempo reported Mignini telling the court didn't you like?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/masonic-theory-that-put-knox-in-the-dock-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

Are you saying that all the journalists are wrong? Here is another one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/knox-stabbed-kercher-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

"Amanda Knox, an American exchange student, stabbed her British fellow student and flatmate Meredith Kercher in the neck at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday. "

[Jester]

What part of the quote i gave you stating what the Il Tempo reported Mignini telling the court didn't you like?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/masonic-theory-that-put-knox-in-the-dock-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

Are you saying that all the journalists are wrong? Here is another one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/knox-stabbed-kercher-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

"Amanda Knox, an American exchange student, stabbed her British fellow student and flatmate Meredith Kercher in the neck at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday. "

I understand the part where Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollicito, and Rudy Guede are convicted of murdering Meredith Kercher based on forensic and circumstantial evidence. Since the murder appears to be a thrill kill of sorts (to me), maybe the prosecutor, in trying to make sense of it, associated it with Halloween and the holiday event in Italy at the time of the murder. I don't think the motive really factors into the trial and conviction, but it's always a curiosity.

Do I understand correctly that you are trying to say that the prosecutor is corrupt, and one reason is that he put forth a few different theories regarding the motivation behind the murder?

[TheBitterEnd]

Do I understand correctly that you are trying to say that the prosecutor is corrupt, and one reason is that he put forth a few different theories regarding the motivation behind the murder?

Not at all. You had stated that Douglas Preston was the person trying to associated the Knox case with Satanic rituals:

Preston appears fixated on satanic rituals and has tried to say that the Knox case is connected with a satanic ritual. I have not read any source, except Preston, making allegations about satanic rituals

I thought it was common knowledge that Mignini was the person who claimed satanic rites, or sexual and sacrificial rites were involved. I'm just trying to show you the news articles, so you can read the source.

I don't think Preston has ever claimed that the Kercher murder was anything other than a probable sexual assault and murder by Rudy Guede.

[Jester]

Not at all. You had stated that Douglas Preston was the person trying to associated the Knox case with Satanic rituals:

I thought it was common knowledge that Mignini was the person who claimed satanic rites, or sexual and sacrificial rites were involved. I'm just trying to show you the news articles, so you can read the source.

I don't think Preston has ever claimed that the Kercher murder was anything other than probably a sexual assault and murder by Rudy Guede.

Well thanks for that. I've been under the impression for the last few months that there was no mention of satanic ritual from the prosecutor. I had heard the phrase "sex game" associated with the murder.

In any case, motivation for the murder isn't a factor in the trial or conviction. Whether it was a satanic rite acted out because of Halloween, a prank gone wrong, or a malicious intent, is all water under the bridge. Meredith was murdered, regardless of what the murderers were thinking when they started the ball rolling.

[Emerald]

Well thanks for that. I've been under the impression for the last few months that there was no mention of satanic ritual from the prosecutor. I had heard the phrase "sex game" associated with the murder.

In any case, motivation for the murder isn't a factor in the trial or conviction. Whether it was a satanic rite acted out because of Halloween, a prank gone wrong, or a malicious intent, is all water under the bridge. Meredith was murdered, regardless of what the murderers were thinking when they started the ball rolling.

ITA

What difference would motive make? Meredith Kercher is dead.

Amanda Knox is guilty of complicity in that murder. Her degree of complicity doesn't matter either.

[Jester]

Yes, we are saying all the journalists are wrong. Not a single journalist was in the court room during that whole trial. It was held behind closed doors. They relied wholly on what lawyers came out and told them on the court steps. The source for Satanism was Raffaele Sollecito's lawyers, never the prosecution. There is only a single authoritive source on what was alleged and argued in that court room. Judge Micheli's sentencing report. His report makes absolutely clear that there were no allegations of Satanism by the prosecution.

Official court documents trump newspapers every time. The only reason I can see for your ignoring them is because you are determined to persist with your straw man and red herring.

Thanks Michael. That's certainly the source given by the papers ... that Raffaele's lawyer claimed the prosecution theory was about a satanic cult, but the prosecutor is not quoted as saying it.

[TheBitterEnd]

Yes, we are saying all the journalists are wrong. Not a single journalist was in the court room during that whole trial. It was held behind closed doors. They relied wholly on what lawyers came out and told them on the court steps. The source for Satanism was Raffaele Sollecito's lawyers, never the prosecution. There is only a single authoritive source on what was alleged and argued in that court room. Judge Micheli's sentencing report. His report makes absolutely clear that there were no allegations of Satanism by the prosecution.

Official court documents trump newspapers every time. The only reason I can see for your ignoring them is because you are determined to persist with your straw man and red herring.

I'm not ignoring court documents. Instead of being insulting, why don't you simply cut and paste the part where Judge Micheli makes it absolutely clear that Mignini never said the words, or anything similar to the words, that the Il Tempo newspaper quoted him as saying?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ck-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

[Jester]

I'm not ignoring court documents. Instead of being insulting, why don't you simply cut and paste the part where Judge Micheli makes it absolutely clear that Mignini never said the words, or anything similar to the words, that the Il Tempo newspaper quoted him as saying?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ck-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

Did the prosecutor say that Amanda and friends were performing satanic rituals, or did the prosecutor draw some connection between the murder of Meredith and November 1 All Saint's Day?

[Details]

I'm not ignoring court documents. Instead of being insulting, why don't you simply cut and paste the part where Judge Micheli makes it absolutely clear that Mignini never said the words, or anything similar to the words, that the Il Tempo newspaper quoted him as saying?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ck-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"If the prosecutor is never quoted as saying this, only the defense attorney claiming he did, and it's nowhere mentioned in court documents - to require a denial is switching to the standard of proving a negative - something that cannot be done, and not a proper standard.

Unless the prosecutor said he said it himself, it's mere rumor - spread by a defense attorney - that it was said.

[Jester]

If the prosecutor is never quoted as saying this, only the defense attorney claiming he did, and it's nowhere mentioned in court documents - to require a denial is switching to the standard of proving a negative - something that cannot be done, and not a proper standard.

Unless the prosecutor said he said it himself, it's mere rumor - spread by a defense attorney - that it was said.

That's certainly how it appears to be. I have not read that the prosecutor believes this murder to be connected in any way to satanic rituals. The provided links quote Raffaele's lawyer as claiming the prosecutor connected the murder with rites and All Saint's Day. Between language translations, private court hearings, and the timing of the murder, it's quite possible that something was taken out of context and published in the media for the sake of having a sensational headline.

The prosecutor did not make any statements about satanic rituals during the trial, or in closing arguments, that I know of.

[Emerald]

Egregious crimes were committed against Meredith Kercher by Amanda Knox. The Prosecutor presented the facts and evidence through the many levels of the Italian Judicial System before the final verdict.

At each level, different jurists found credibility enough to advance it to the next level.

No matter what personal legal problems Mignini has, AMANDA IS GUILTY.

Recently, it was reported Amanda was distraught that no one believed her. If anyone can get this message to her, please assure Amanda that I do. She stated and gave details in several confessions of being present when the crimes were committed.

I BELIEVE HER. :thumbsup:

[RayStar]

ITA

What difference would motive make? Meredith Kercher is dead.

Amanda Knox is guilty of complicity in that murder. Her degree of complicity doesn't matter either.

I wish I knew how to double quote. This post and the one at 4:46 PM yesterday are two I completely agree with.

The prosecutor did not kill Meredith thru his legal problems. Amanda is exactly where she belongs.

[TheBitterEnd]

Exactly. It's a bit like saying Micheli doesn't specifically say in his report that it wasn't Bigfoot, ergo the prosecutor must be alleging Bigfoot was involved. The judge's report is there only to accept or dismiss that which was put forward in the court room, not press rumours or rumours fed to the press outside the court room by lawyers, lawyers who let's face it, were well aware of Preston and Spezi's allegations and the attention those were getting thanks to the Knox PR machine, so that any allegations of Satanism they made to the media would find traction. That was the game they were playing. But, it has nothing to do with reality. All this is, is a very good lesson in spin, how those with an agenda push it and how the gullible eat that spin up.

The Micheli report is not a transcript of everything that was said in the court room. You cannot prove that Mignini did not say something by, pointing to the fact that the Micheli report doesn't mention it as proof. You have switched from "His report makes it absolutely clear" to his report doesn't mention what was said by Mignini on that day.

I provided a quote from a newspaper that referenced what was said by Mignini in court that day. Unless Mignini or somebody from the court room specifically denies he said that, i have no reason not to believe it.

If you want to believe that Raffaele's lawyer walked out of the court room and blatantly lied to the press about what Mignini just said go ahead.

[TheBitterEnd]

And you provide a quote from a newspaper to try and reinforce your case. Yet, the word 'Satanic' doesn't appear in your quote in any case.

The newspaper mentions a sexual and sacrificial rite originally planned for the night of Halloween. A rite is a religious ceremony. I'm pretty sure I was originally responding to Jester who mentioned that Preston appeared "fixated on satanic rituals".

What would you prefer a sexual and sacrificial religious ceremony planned for the night of Halloween be called?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/masonic-theory-that-put-knox-in-the-dock-981759.html

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite"

In the intention of the organisers, the rite should have occurred 24 hours earlier” – on Hallowe’en itself – “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organised by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day. The presumed assassins contented themselves with the evening of 1 November to perform their do-it-yourself rite, when for some hours it would again be the night of All Saints.”