Inmates come to guard's aid in jail attack

[VC2]

As the warden says, when you treat inmates with dignity they respond in kind.

Moon, 64, was no match for Douglas Burden, 24, in custody on various drug charges. With Moon still in his chair, Burden put him in a choke hold and pulled tight.

And then, surveillance video of the Monday attack showed, other inmates jumped into the fray.

But the other inmates joined the fight on the guard's side, pulling Burden away from Moon and punching him in the head. One inmate grabbed Moon's radio and called for back-up. The inmates held Burden down until other guards arrived as one of them extended a hand to help Moon up, according to the video.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/04/florida.jail.attack/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

[Jayne]

What is that saying? "You [don't] bite the hand that feeds you"?

Good to hear this.

jmo

They've 'upped' their ante..even if not planned. Gotta say..I give those inmates a "kudo" for not getting into a gang mentality and hurting that guard, but instead came to his aid.

[aproudmom]

glad to see this

[Lovethechild]

This made my day! :thumbsup:

[LisaM22]

:thumbsup:

that tells me that he is a really good guard, when the prisoners respect you enough to fight for you, what was the reason the inmates gave... because he is a good guy... simple as that

[Ladygator]

:thumbsup:

that tells me that he is a really good guard, when the prisoners respect you enough to fight for you, what was the reason the inmates gave... because he is a good guy... simple as that

And one of the inmates who helped the guard is in there for 'attempted murder'.

The chokehold that was placed on the guard was very tight according to the inmate who broke it. The guard's face was turning purple!!

All 4 inmates will be given letters, written by the Sheriff, IIRC, to be placed in their court files.

The comments by the Sheriff about this episode being proof that jailers treat inmates good stems from all the other videos that have been made public in recent years of them beating up inmates.

:thumbsup: The inmates did the right thing!!!! I have no doubt they saved the guards life!! That man wanted to kill him!!!

[luvmyboys]

Finally! Some good news!!!! :thumbsup:

[Lavinya]

Inmates protected me much more than I thought they would. While I think some did just because I was a female, I'm sure others did because they knew I was their conduit to getting good health care when they needed it. They protected their "resource". Respectful treatment to inmates will get you a l o n g way.

[Duke]

Lavinya,

I am not sure what you are saying. :confused:

Maybe I am reading this all wrong.

Kudo's for the inmates!!

[Lavinya]

Lavinya,

I am not sure what you are saying. :confused:

Maybe I am reading this all wrong.

Kudo's for the inmates!!

I worked as an RN in a max. security state prison and a federal penitentiary. Some of the nurses treated the inmates horribly, just horribly. I went by the credo that we weren't there to mete out punishment or even judgment, we were there to provide medical service *regardless* of what they have done. I spoke respectfully to inmates and provided nursing care to them the same as I would a "free world" person and they (for the most part) appreciated it. In return, I had inmates tell me of nefarious plans by other inmates that could have concerned me. I also had inmates calm fellow inmates that started getting agitated by either medical treatment or prison staff treatment. Inmates definitely "had my back" numerous times. They always treated correctional officers better if the CO's treated them with respect.

[Ladygator]

Hillsborough prisoner attacks deputy, other inmates rush to stop the choking

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1049340.ece

Very detailed article about the offenses all inmates involved are accused of.

[Duke]

I worked as an RN in a max. security state prison and a federal penitentiary. Some of the nurses treated the inmates horribly, just horribly. I went by the credo that we weren't there to mete out punishment or even judgment, we were there to provide medical service *regardless* of what they have done. I spoke respectfully to inmates and provided nursing care to them the same as I would a "free world" person and they (for the most part) appreciated it. In return, I had inmates tell me of nefarious plans by other inmates that could have concerned me. I also had inmates calm fellow inmates that started getting agitated by either medical treatment or prison staff treatment. Inmates definitely "had my back" numerous times. They always treated correctional officers better if the CO's treated them with respect.


You sound like a strong person with a great ability to calm the crowd. It is good to know that there are people with this ability :thumbup:

[nsm]

Finally...
some good news out of Florida!

Kudos to those who chose to do the right thing. :beer:

absolutley! how did those inmates get loose in the first place?

[LisaM22]

And one of the inmates who helped the guard is in there for 'attempted murder'.

The chokehold that was placed on the guard was very tight according to the inmate who broke it. The guard's face was turning purple!!

All 4 inmates will be given letters, written by the Sheriff, IIRC, to be placed in their court files.

The comments by the Sheriff about this episode being proof that jailers treat inmates good stems from all the other videos that have been made public in recent years of them beating up inmates.

:thumbsup: The inmates did the right thing!!!! I have no doubt they saved the guards life!! That man wanted to kill him!!!

thanks, if releasing videos of jailers being bad in the past helped to cause some to be good then it is a good thing, but this jailer I think was good to begin with, I do not think it was because video's of past bad jailers was released, the prisoners really thought this man was a good guy, that is enough for me to believe he was just that, some people you can just sense the goodness coming out of them when you interact with them, the respect and fairness they give you

[Duke]

absolutley! how did those inmates get loose in the first place?

Strange huh? Thank goodness it turned out as it did, but they were not convicted yet so maybe this is the way the courtroom rolls. I have no idea.

[Ladygator]

thanks, if releasing videos of jailers being bad in the past helped to cause some to be good then it is a good thing, but this jailer I think was good to begin with, I do not think it was because video's of past bad jailers was released, the prisoners really thought this man was a good guy, that is enough for me to believe he was just that, some people you can just sense the goodness coming out of them when you interact with them, the respect and fairness they give you

It's Florida, the video would have been released no matter what, lol.

I'm glad to see that the jail is going to review their policy's after this. 60 plus inmates with one guard sounds dangerous.

[Lavinya]

You sound like a strong person with a great ability to calm the crowd. It is good to know that there are people with this ability :thumbup:

I was always mindful that there but for the grace of God or fate, or whatever one wants to call it, go I or a member of my family. I had the luck of being born with the brain I was born with, the family I had, the region where I lived, etc. etc. etc. While we all have free will, I can see how most of those guys didn't stand a chance in life with the circumstances into which they were born. It's really sad to see people's entire lives wasted in addition to what they did to contribute to wasting others' lives. There is so much potential that never saw the light of day and never will.

I can easily see those inmates saving the officer's life. For the most part they're still human and will react to wrong-doing the way we should. Good on 'em and good for the correctional officer!

[birdwatch]

absolutley! how did those inmates get loose in the first place? seems like they were having lunch in a common area. The link said that the prisoners with disciplinary problems are locked in their cells. The attacker had just come out of a 23 hr lockdown. I guess he won't be aloud in the common area in future.
Good for those guys! It is so great to hear some good news.

[Details]

There are all types of criminals - I think there's a tendency to see them all as the same - but they're all different. Some are pure thug, looking to hurt anyone - others believe they are doing just what they have to, and are not too bad outside of those failings.

I think a lot of them are unfortunate fools who have fallen for the "dis" concept - that the world must show them unearned respect or else they aren't really men, and they must respond with violence to anything that is insufficient respect - or else you aren't enough of a man.

It's a sick and destructive and wrong concept, but I see it a lot.

[Lavinya]

There are all types of criminals - I think there's a tendency to see them all as the same - but they're all different. Some are pure thug, looking to hurt anyone - others believe they are doing just what they have to, and are not too bad outside of those failings.

I think a lot of them are unfortunate fools who have fallen for the "dis" concept - that the world must show them unearned respect or else they aren't really men, and they must respond with violence to anything that is insufficient respect - or else you aren't enough of a man.

It's a sick and destructive and wrong concept, but I see it a lot.

Great post, Details. That is sooo true.

One of the best guys I know did time for Murder2. His wife had been having an affair with her boss, and when he caught them in his bed together, he beat the guy to death. He regrets his actions something awful. He will give you the shirt off of his back and has helped us immensely. He raised his nephews whose mother abandoned them, he tends to his sick mother like a saint and just generally helps out the downtrodden. Despite what he did, he is a decent guy that fouled up, IMO. Human nature is complicated.

[VC2]

Great post, Details. That is sooo true.

One of the best guys I know did time for Murder2. His wife had been having an affair with her boss, and when he caught them in his bed together, he beat the guy to death. He regrets his actions something awful. He will give you the shirt off of his back and has helped us immensely. He raised his nephews whose mother abandoned them, he tends to his sick mother like a saint and just generally helps out the downtrodden. Despite what he did, he is a decent guy that fouled up, IMO. Human nature is complicated.

One of the biggest misconceptions people have about people convicted of murder is that they are evil in general and will always be a danger.

In fact, studies have shown that except in cases of serial murderers and some specific types - the man who kills another because of color or orientation (true hate crimes), the serial abuser of their spouses who escalate to murder, certain gang members but not all- have a far lower recidivism rate than rapists, robbers and others.

Most murders are due to one time "perfect storms". Situations where the odds of all the same factors coming together again are astronomical and at times it is pure bad luck that the victim died, for example a fight between two people where in the frenzy one keeps punching til they are dead or pulls a knife.. I have known gang members who were never caught and now are upstanding citizens, some working to help others get out of gangs.

Treating inmates properly, with dignity and respect is important partly to remind them they are not animals, secondly to model good behavior. There will be some inmates who probably were never ever treated with respect by anyone in their lives including parents except the individual guards, nurses like you and others in the prison.

This will be of great help in lowering violence-if ppl need a selfish reason to treat them decently- but also prepare those who will be released in learning better ways to interact with people.

IMO

ETA i hope the review of policies will not end up punishing the majority of inmates for the acts of this creep. For example turning it into a 23 hour lockdown prison for all.

[VC2]

He works amid the prisoners unprotected by bars and doors much of the time as part of the jail's "direct supervision," which fosters closer relationships between inmates and deputies.

Jail attacks on Hillsborough deputies have declined from 76 in 2006 to 22 this year partly because of the system, Previtera said.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1049340.ece

I hope every prison in the country starts using this method.

IMO

[Lavinya]

Good posts VC2! ITA!

[VC2]

Good posts VC2! ITA!

ty Lavinya. It is one reason I prefer our Canadian law with a max 25 years before eligible for parole in the case of murder. Most of them are perfectly safe to release on parole..and here the parole is for life if its a first degree charge. The ones that will always be a danger don't get parole ever or if they have been convicted of a lesser they can be confined to a hospital for the rest of their life under the dangerous offenders act. It doesn't mean they all go free, they get punished, they get rehabilitation -that is the primary goal of our justice system - and then they can be released when appropriate.
jmo

[Lavinya]

ty Lavinya. It is one reason I prefer our Canadian law with a max 25 years before eligible for parole in the case of murder. Most of them are perfectly safe to release on parole..and here the parole is for life if its a first degree charge. The ones that will always be a danger don't get parole ever or if they have been convicted of a lesser they can be confined to a hospital for the rest of their life under the dangerous offenders act. It doesn't mean they all go free, they get punished, they get rehabilitation -that is the primary goal of our justice system - and then they can be released when appropriate.
jmo

Another good thing about that kind of sentencing is that it gives inmates something to work toward and it increases positive behavior in prisons. LWOP inmates don't have much to lose and they will act on just any old behavior they think up and that increases staff costs and increases injury and/or death to staff.

[VC2]

I think it helped the son of the first inmate to respond as well:

First in to rescue the deputy was Jerry Dieguez, 48-years-old and awaiting trial for home invasion robbery. Throughout a life filled with drug abuse, Dieguez served hard time for aggravated battery, battery on a law enforcement officer, and burglary, relatives said.

Thursday morning Dieguez's teenage son watched the video for the first time and didn't know whether to laugh or cry. 19-year-old Jerry Dieguez (who has the same name as his dad) did a little of both. "I never really had a reason to be proud of him," the younger Dieguez said. "Today, I'm proud. Real proud."
http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/Son-of-jail-attack-hero-speaks-out/dl4-evAhaUSA86_cBTDZvg.cspx

i am very glad that their attornies are going to get letters from the warden to use in court. I think these 4 might actually be perfect cases to be given a chance not only of a lesser sentence but real rehabilitation. If they themselves can feel pride in their actions it might not be just the first time that the child felt proud but the inmates themselves and that truly can start changing lives.

IMO

[gnm109]

ty Lavinya. It is one reason I prefer our Canadian law with a max 25 years before eligible for parole in the case of murder. Most of them are perfectly safe to release on parole..and here the parole is for life if its a first degree charge. The ones that will always be a danger don't get parole ever or if they have been convicted of a lesser they can be confined to a hospital for the rest of their life under the dangerous offenders act. It doesn't mean they all go free, they get punished, they get rehabilitation -that is the primary goal of our justice system - and then they can be released when appropriate.
jmo

Sorry, you just haven't met up with some of our criminals. Life's not enough for most of them. They are a depraved lot with one characteristic in common, a cold and abandoned heart.

In California, murder is life with or without parole. We have a recidivism rate of in excess of 75%. We have many notorious murderers - people like Richard Ramirez, aka "The Night Stalker". Then there's Charles Manson and the rest of his crowd. Oh yeah, we've got Sirhan, B. Sirhan, who murdered Robert Kennedy and a host of others whose names I can't remember. You don't let people like that back out on the street. They will kill anyone they can get their hands on. 25 years? I don't think so.

The guard was very lucky in this particular incident, In California, prisoners often interpret the giving of kindness them by a guard as a sign of weakness and vulnerability.

It's nice that he was helped by other inmates, though. That is as it should be but, as I say, I wouldn't bet on it.

Good luck up there in Canada. :unsure:

[Jayne]

Great post, GNM..

So so very true.

What happened here is pretty amazing, IMO. Thank goodness it did.

Those paper commendations in their files will help them in their future in prison, but it won't get them a ticket to the outside..but it might make a difference in how they behave in prison..how they may try to make strides to alter their behaviour(s) and perhaps consider their past? I know..recidivism is over the top, and I have little faith in rehabilitation..it depends on the person and what crime they committed, I think. It would be Nice if their actions influenced others in prison to respect those who guard them.

jmo

J

[gnm109]

Great post, GNM..

So so very true.

What happened here is pretty amazing, IMO. Thank goodness it did.

Those paper commendations in their files will help them in their future in prison, but it won't get them a ticket to the outside..but it might make a difference in how they behave in prison..how they may try to make strides to alter their behaviour(s) and perhaps consider their past? I know..recidivism is over the top, and I have little faith in rehabilitation..it depends on the person and what crime they committed, I think. It would be Nice if their actions influenced others in prison to respect those who guard them.

jmo

J

It's laudable that some of the prisoners came to the aid of the guard when he was being attacked. The problem now becomes how to protect the prisoners who helped the guard. That sort of behavior is looked upon as a weakness among the prison population. For the most part, they want to know that their "homies" will be on their side if there are confrontations between the staff and the inmates. Those who help staff will be marked for payback.

Prison is a millieu that requires retribution for the slightest deviation from gang norms. The prisoners who helped out will be marked for action later on, long after the incident has been forgotten by most.

In California at least, the only state in which I have any experience with the criminal justice system, the concept of rehabilitation is no longer part of the prison experience. That went away long ago. In the past, there were lots of training programs and educational opportunities. Those are extremely limited nowadays. There simply isn't any budget to do much.

Skills gained when stamping and bagging license plates and manufacturing state office furniture offer limited use in the outside world. Moderny, prison is only a warehouse to put those who can't comply with society's norms.

I fear for the ones who helped out. Likely they will be put in segregation for their trouble, even if it was reflexive on their part. The other prisoners have nothing else to do except settle their grudges and they are very patient.

[Jayne]

It's laudable that some of the prisoners came to the aid of the guard when he was being attacked. The problem now becomes how to protect the prisoners who helped the guard. That sort of behavior is looked upon as a weakness among the prison population. For the most part, they want to know that their "homies" will be on their side if there are confrontations between the staff and the inmates. Those who help staff will be marked for payback.

....

In California at least, the only state in which I have any experience with the criminal justice system, the concept of rehabilitation is no longer part of the prison experience. That went away long ago. In the past, there were lots of training programs and educational opportunities. Those are extremely limited nowadays. There simply isn't any budget to do much.

....

I fear for the ones who helped out. Likely they will be put in segregation for their trouble, even if it was reflexive on their part. The other prisoners have nothing else to do except settle their grudges and they are very patient.

Again..I agree with you. You and I were on "opposite sides" as I recall..in our jobs..but not in understanding much of this. I would venture you had much more experience with the defendant..prison situation and I have much respect for you.

In CA and NY, in my experience, recidivism is way high..as you posted. Rehabilitation..OK..I was on the prosecution side but we didn't see it working or believing in it. Maybe in some situations..but hardly..that's why I posted..it depends on the person..the crime..and of course the prison experience and the help they are offered. And, you're right..there isn't that much help..or it's a bandaid approach..then they are let out..then back in before much time spans..and another victim(s) on the books.

I hope those inmates are protected. I write with "rosecoloured fingers" sometimes..hoping it would send a message to the other inmates that is positive..but, yeah..no doubt you are on it..they are now in danger. This isn't the Birdman from Alcatraz.

jmo

J

[VC2]

Sorry, you just haven't met up with some of our criminals. Life's not enough for most of them. They are a depraved lot with one characteristic in common, a cold and abandoned heart.

In California, murder is life with or without parole. We have a recidivism rate of in excess of 75%. We have many notorious murderers - people like Richard Ramirez, aka "The Night Stalker". Then there's Charles Manson and the rest of his crowd. Oh yeah, we've got Sirhan, B. Sirhan, who murdered Robert Kennedy and a host of others whose names I can't remember. You don't let people like that back out on the street. They will kill anyone they can get their hands on. 25 years? I don't think so.

The guard was very lucky in this particular incident, In California, prisoners often interpret the giving of kindness them by a guard as a sign of weakness and vulnerability.

It's nice that he was helped by other inmates, though. That is as it should be but, as I say, I wouldn't bet on it.

Good luck up there in Canada. :unsure:

Umm we have our own doozies, the Picton Pig farmer serial killer who murdered 23 women and fed them to his pigs, Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka-specifically paul for this discussion- Clifford Olson the serial child rapist/murderer-10 children murdered. The grayhound Bus cannibal. Mark Lepine, killed 14 women in a spree killing bc he hated feminists. John Crawford who is serving 3 life sentences and suspected of 3 other murders. Michael McGray who is convicted of 4 but has confessed to 16. William Fyfe who is serving life in a psych unit for 5 murders, confessed to another 4. Alan Legere who was serving life and escaped from prison to murder another 5.


None of these will ever see the outside again. They are either going to be serving the life part of 25 to life or the rest of their life in a criminal psychiatric facility like the grayhound bus killer.

I am not sure why it is so hard to understand or explain that 25 years minimum before eligibility for parole does not mean 25 years maximum. That is the minimum. Life is the maximum. It means the ones who can and should be paroled are and the real evil ones are denied parole for life. Those who get parole are on parole for life so they can never put a step wrong and not be returned to prison..even 40 years later if needed.

Here is a great article on the inmates here though, including pictures of all involved.

A real shock that guys who look like this jumped to the guards defense and more detail about the role of each.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov/04/inmates-credited-rescuing-hillsborough-deputy-duri/

[LisaM22]

Umm we have our own doozies, the Picton Pig farmer serial killer who murdered 23 women and fed them to his pigs, Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka-specifically paul for this discussion- Clifford Olson the serial child rapist/murderer-10 children murdered. The grayhound Bus cannibal. Mark Lepine, killed 14 women in a spree killing bc he hated feminists. John Crawford who is serving 3 life sentences and suspected of 3 other murders. Michael McGray who is convicted of 4 but has confessed to 16. William Fyfe who is serving life in a psych unit for 5 murders, confessed to another 4. Alan Legere who was serving life and escaped from prison to murder another 5.


None of these will ever see the outside again. They are either going to be serving the life part of 25 to life or the rest of their life in a criminal psychiatric facility like the grayhound bus killer.

I am not sure why it is so hard to understand or explain that 25 years minimum before eligibility for parole does not mean 25 years maximum. That is the minimum. Life is the maximum. It means the ones who can and should be paroled are and the real evil ones are denied parole for life. Those who get parole are on parole for life so they can never put a step wrong and not be returned to prison..even 40 years later if needed.

Here is a great article on the inmates here though, including pictures of all involved.

A real shock that guys who look like this jumped to the guards defense and more detail about the role of each.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov/04/inmates-credited-rescuing-hillsborough-deputy-duri/

you said "guys who look like this", I have often wondered if I was born looking like a bad guy, would society treat me like a bad guy, would i then become.... a bad guy? would a persons odds increase of becoming a bad guy just because of their looks?

btw, I agree with your statement, as I thought the same thing too when I saw the pictures, I just wonder about it though, I wonder how many others saw the pictures and thought as we did

[VC2]

you said "guys who look like this", I have often wondered if I was born looking like a bad guy, would society treat me like a bad guy, would i then become.... a bad guy? would a persons odds increase of becoming a bad guy just because of their looks?

btw, I agree with your statement, as I thought the same thing too when I saw the pictures, I just wonder about it though, I wonder how many others saw the pictures and thought as we did

It certainly doesn't help. If they don't have lots of love and nurturing at home then it becomes even harder. Not to say that looks are in any way the cause.

When i looked at the pictures i realized these are men who really have had a very hard life, you can see it in their faces..the one who landed the haymaker on burden cant be that old, his son is just 19 but he looks 70. None of them look as if they are used to care and compassion let alone giving it to others.

Hopefully this will have an affect on their sentences, it certainly won't change the charges but if it is 3-10 range then i hope its closer to the lower end partly because of their actions. It is important to show good actions can have positive consequences even for bad guys..or maybe especially for them.

Like i said, it could be the first time that they felt they did something to be proud of, where society and people who they never expected anything but disdain or hate from are praising them. This just might open some doors to changing their life. If the prisons they are sent to can offer some work training and drug counselling then who knows.

Yes it is the very optimistic way to look at it but that is better than pessimism all the time.

I did have a chuckle at the reaction of their attornies when they got a call from the warden or the DA about their clients..expecting news of bad behavior, a fight etc. to discover they saved a guard.

jmo

[LisaM22]

It certainly doesn't help. If they don't have lots of love and nurturing at home then it becomes even harder. Not to say that looks are in any way the cause.

When i looked at the pictures i realized these are men who really have had a very hard life, you can see it in their faces..the one who landed the haymaker on burden cant be that old, his son is just 19 but he looks 70. None of them look as if they are used to care and compassion let alone giving it to others.

Hopefully this will have an affect on their sentences, it certainly won't change the charges but if it is 3-10 range then i hope its closer to the lower end partly because of their actions. It is important to show good actions can have positive consequences even for bad guys..or maybe especially for them.

Like i said, it could be the first time that they felt they did something to be proud of, where society and people who they never expected anything but disdain or hate from are praising them. This just might open some doors to changing their life. If the prisons they are sent to can offer some work training and drug counselling then who knows.

Yes it is the very optimistic way to look at it but that is better than pessimism all the time.

I did have a chuckle at the reaction of their attornies when they got a call from the warden or the DA about their clients..expecting news of bad behavior, a fight etc. to discover they saved a guard.

jmo

yeah, that had to be an odd call for their attorneys, like you said, they had to be thinking, now what... lol

I also agree, this has to give them something to be proud about and they should be, it's sad that some parents do nothing but put their children down, children have to be able to turn to someone that loves and supports them, even a ugly duckling needs love

[VC2]

Absolutly Abbie. Only worked in the Jail and I would guess easier then prision nursing. The COs are usually a pain particularly the short thin gals who want to be "somebody" when they are "nobody". I love Correctional Nursing, cared about the inmates and did the best for them we could. They are sad souls. Watching how the inmates changed physically over five years was really sad and most of all the girls. Along the way, they lose their teeth, get cocaine of meth teeth, scaars, permanent injuries and just all around decline in health, Very sad but glad we were able to help them. Our nurses treated the inmates better then their own mothers. In my jail, an inmate who was in lockdown would never be placed in a Pod with the minor felony folk.

You and the other nurses here and out in public, who do correctional nursing with compassion and empathy are very special people.

I can never forget that each and every inmate, no matter what they did, had the same hopes and dreams as our little boys or little girls before they broke and shattered for a multitude of reasons. Therefore i am always more interested in why and the background of even some of the most evil..to try and understand what made them that way. Understanding is the only way to lessen violence and crime..because then we have a better chance of catching the problem before it is to late.

These inmates, a couple of made comments:

Dieguez said he is pleased to have done "what was honorable." Schofield said: "It's all about respect." Carswell saw the deputy lose color above the neck and thought: "Nobody deserves to die like that."
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/four-inmates-act-with-honor/1050005

I really hope guards across the country take note of what happens when you treat inmates with respect even if they don't give it to you at first. Moon should do a little talk about how he treats inmates and add it to the video so it can be sent through all the prison systems.

[Jayne]

you said "guys who look like this", I have often wondered if I was born looking like a bad guy, would society treat me like a bad guy, would i then become.... a bad guy? would a persons odds increase of becoming a bad guy just because of their looks?

btw, I agree with your statement, as I thought the same thing too when I saw the pictures, I just wonder about it though, I wonder how many others saw the pictures and thought as we did

Lisa..that's a good point...I wonder, too, if someone who "looks" a certain way is treated a certain way..and I think they are. Look at children and adults who are physically deformed or who are autistic or downs syndrome, and such. Doesn't make them bad...but they are so often treated a certain way because of how they look..or even, perhaps a suspect, in some cases due to it. Maybe..in comes cases..the odds do increase in becoming a bad person..because they were treated a particular way due to their looks?

What I find in those photos..that is "looks like those guys"..is the "LOOK" in their eyes..the way they hold their head, etc. Physically..to me..they are not Ugly people at all..but their Attitude and the Stare or Stance is bothersome or worrisome?

This may sound very stupid..but I do believe in the saying that the Eyes are the Window to the Soul. There's so much to see in one's eyes..besides all the health things one can determine (holistic medicine, for example)..that emptiness - blankness - staring..but not looking.

without telling stories here..I've observed it..with people committing crimes..either seeing it happen or interviewing them afterwards.

jmo j

[Details]

The backgrounds are interesting - as are the photos - classic photos of defiant criminals - thugs. Not because of the shape of the face, but the expression - raised outthrust chin, anger, contempt - you wouldn't select them as having much of anything to redeem them.

And the armed home invader, attempted murderer, failure to register as a sex offender, and aggravated assault and battery guys saved him from a mere driving under the influence and drug trafficking charged guy. You'd look at the charges, and figure the reverse would be true, that the first set would be the worse people. But in this situation - they weren't.

I still wouldn't trust them for anything - doesn't change what they did - but it adds a dimension, something more than merely a thug.

[VC2]

The backgrounds are interesting - as are the photos - classic photos of defiant criminals - thugs. Not because of the shape of the face, but the expression - raised outthrust chin, anger, contempt - you wouldn't select them as having much of anything to redeem them.

And the armed home invader, attempted murderer, failure to register as a sex offender, and aggravated assault and battery guys saved him from a mere driving under the influence and drug trafficking charged guy. You'd look at the charges, and figure the reverse would be true, that the first set would be the worse people. But in this situation - they weren't.

I still wouldn't trust them for anything - doesn't change what they did - but it adds a dimension, something more than merely a thug.

Yes, it certainly does. It reminds us they are human and have some core decency..their words remind us of that too.

I think the decision to provide letters to their attorney's not just in their files, deliberately suggesting they can be given to the judge (clearly to help get a lesser sentence) was a wise one. The upside is twofold.

First, it is the right thing to do. They cannot give them gifts etc., this is the only thing they can do that would have meaning. I also believe that some may attempt to become better people too now they see they can be proud of themselves for something.

Secondly, perhaps more important to society, is that it tells inmates throughout prisons and jails that if they behave properly they will not be treated like dung. In fact they will be given the thanks or praise when it is deserved. That in itself might lower more violence in prisons/jails against guards and health care people. If the cost of that is knocking off a few years from a hero's sentence, it is cheap at the price.

IMO

[birdwatch]

The backgrounds are interesting - as are the photos - classic photos of defiant criminals - thugs. Not because of the shape of the face, but the expression - raised outthrust chin, anger, contempt - you wouldn't select them as having much of anything to redeem them.

And the armed home invader, attempted murderer, failure to register as a sex offender, and aggravated assault and battery guys saved him from a mere driving under the influence and drug trafficking charged guy. You'd look at the charges, and figure the reverse would be true, that the first set would be the worse people. But in this situation - they weren't.

I still wouldn't trust them for anything - doesn't change what they did - but it adds a dimension, something more than merely a thug.
I find it interesting that the aggressor wasn't even in jail for anything violent - he was in for DUI and drug trafficking. I guess he got violent when he got there. He attacked a fellow prisoner and was in solitary for that; but clearly they weren't expecting further trouble from him - at least not violence toward a guard. I don't know if its just the picture
but Burden looks like he is a huge man!

[mazaratia3]

This was a highlight in my day.

are you cereal right now?

[R~O~S]

The backgrounds are interesting - as are the photos - classic photos of defiant criminals - thugs. Not because of the shape of the face, but the expression - raised outthrust chin, anger, contempt - you wouldn't select them as having much of anything to redeem them.

And the armed home invader, attempted murderer, failure to register as a sex offender, and aggravated assault and battery guys saved him from a mere driving under the influence and drug trafficking charged guy. You'd look at the charges, and figure the reverse would be true, that the first set would be the worse people. But in this situation - they weren't.

I still wouldn't trust them for anything - doesn't change what they did - but it adds a dimension, something more than merely a thug.


This is why I wonder if those that call for imprisonment to be the barest of existence lacking anything resembling human comfort, safety or respect for the prisoner by those charged with housing them actually consider the ramifications of such a system.

We had that system once. In 1980 the riot in the max security prison in NM resulted in the death of 33 inmates, 200 injured & 12 LEO taken hostage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_State_Penitentiary_riot

More recently the frustration due to overcrowding in CA prisons resulted in like violence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/us/10prison.html

250 inmates hurt, 55 seriously enough to require hospitalization.

Even if they don't care about the injuries to the inmates, who were likely not the worst of the worst, but the weakest and more cooperative inmate targeted because of their cooperation, they should care about the cost that we the taxpayers will incur as a result.

We have a choice, inmates are where they are for a reason. But the purpose is to restrain & confine, it's not to dehumanize.

We can treat prisoners with respect and offer carrots and sticks in hopes of effecting some semblance of rehabilitation & a human connection that will cause them to think before harming that guard who didn't beat them because they could, or we can repeat all the mistakes of the past.

[gnm109]

This is why I wonder if those that call for imprisonment to be the barest of existence lacking anything resembling human comfort, safety or respect for the prisoner by those charged with housing them actually consider the ramifications of such a system.

We had that system once. In 1980 the riot in the max security prison in NM resulted in the death of 33 inmates, 200 injured & 12 LEO taken hostage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_State_Penitentiary_riot

More recently the frustration due to overcrowding in CA prisons resulted in like violence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/us/10prison.html

250 inmates hurt, 55 seriously enough to require hospitalization.

Even if they don't care about the injuries to the inmates, who were likely not the worst of the worst, but the weakest and more cooperative inmate targeted because of their cooperation, they should care about the cost that we the taxpayers will incur as a result.

We have a choice, inmates are where they are for a reason. But the purpose is to restrain & confine, it's not to dehumanize.

We can treat prisoners with respect and offer carrots and sticks in hopes of effecting some semblance of rehabilitation & a human connection that will cause them to think before harming that guard who didn't beat them because they could, or we can repeat all the mistakes of the past.

While I agree with your fundamental concept, my experience with the criminal mind tells me that they usually aren't amenable to niceties. The issue for long-term prisoners usually has more to do with gang loyalty and self-protection on the most basic level.

As to repeating the mistakes of the past, let's remember that the ones who made the mistakes are the prisoners. I wonder about the inference that society is to blame. The convicts did the crime and they are doing the time. That seems fair.

As to rehabilitation, that's a fine concept but it doesn't work in California. Put them in a shop with metalworking, woodworking or welding tools to train them for later work on the outside and they merely use the tools to make weapons.

I don't have any answers for criminal behavior. Society is probably doing the best that it can to contain them.

[R~O~S]

While I agree with your fundamental concept, my experience with the criminal mind tells me that they usually aren't amenable to niceties. The issue for long-term prisoners usually has more to do with gang loyalty and self-protection on the most basic level.

As to repeating the mistakes of the past, let's remember that the ones who made the mistakes are the prisoners. I wonder about the inference that society is to blame. The convicts did the crime and they are doing the time. That seems fair.

As to rehabilitation, that's a fine concept but it doesn't work in California. Put them in a shop with metalworking, woodworking or welding tools to train them for later work on the outside and they merely use the tools to make weapons.

I don't have any answers for criminal behavior. Society is probably doing the best that it can to contain them.

Society is indeed to blame when they choose to treat those we imprison like animals.

Nowhere did I suggest they shouldn't be where they are, in fact I believe I made note they were there for a reason.

However, how we treat them once they're there, will determine how they behave while there and upon release.

There is no doubt the inmate with nothing to lose, will behave as if he has nothing to lose.

However, simple acts of human kindness, a more relaxed exercise program when earned, access to libraries & recreation rooms, opportunities for education or job training, trustee jobs, things that are earned and therefore can be taken away as the result of infractions are the carrots and sticks I was clear about in my post.

I have no problem with isolation and such for those who are consistently non complaint, but seriously that is not every prisoner and to throw them all out with the bathwater is short sighted & dangerous for those charged with housing them. I'm not talking about luxury items, I'm talking about simple niceties.

If there is no hope for a more comfortable incarceration, they have no reason to comply. If the punishment for failure to comply is no different than the punishment if they comply, they have nothing to lose. That's what I see advocated on these forums often.

[gnm109]

Society is indeed to blame when they choose to treat those we imprison like animals.

Nowhere did I suggest they shouldn't be where they are, in fact I believe I made note they were there for a reason.

However, how we treat them once they're there, will determine how they behave while there and upon release.

There is no doubt the inmate with nothing to lose, will behave as if he has nothing to lose.

However, simple acts of human kindness, a more relaxed exercise program when earned, access to libraries & recreation rooms, opportunities for education or job training, trustee jobs, things that are earned and therefore can be taken away as the result of infractions are the carrots and sticks I was clear about in my post.

I have no problem with isolation and such for those who are consistently non complaint, but seriously that is not every prisoner and to throw them all out with the bathwater is short sighted & dangerous for those charged with housing them. I'm not talking about luxury items, I'm talking about simple niceties.

If there is no hope for a more comfortable incarceration, they have no reason to comply. If the punishment for failure to comply is no different than the punishment if they comply, they have nothing to lose. That's what I see advocated on these forums often.

What you set forth is all very well and good. Unfortunately, you skipped over the matter of gang affiliation that I raised earlier. Behavior in prison is not in any way controlled by treating the prisoners better. The gang shot-callers are in charge of the prisoners, not the guards or the administration. The administration and the correctional guards are only there to contain them and punish them after bad behavior.

There are all sorts of gangs, too. There are the "woodies" (otherwise unafilated white prisoners), the Nazi Low Riders, The Ayran Brotherhood, The Bloods, The Crips, The Norteno Hispanics, The Sureno Hispanics, La Eme (Mexican Mafia). The Asians/Amerindians/South Sea Islanders and so on. There are even South American Latin groups that don't fit into the other Hispanic categories like Salva Maratrucha, originally based in San Salvador but spreading to the Southwestern US. Thus, there are very few prisoners who dare to go on the yard without affiliation. Membership is, in effect, mandatory for survival.

Furthermore, activities such making nice with the guards, accepting favors from them, smiling at them and laughing at their jokes, are considered a problem among the gang leaders that may require discipline from the gang. Not only that, prison management discourages guards from consorting with prisoners.

Another important motivating factor is respect. The slightest disrespect between one group and another must be dealt with. You can be as nice as you want and if there is any perceived disrespect between one gang member and another, if must be paid back. It can be as small a thing as using the wrong bathroom sink or a furtive glance. Order must be maintained.

At that point, any relationship with the guards becomes irrelevant and the members will take care business at whatever level they perceive is necessary. It may not be quick, either. They will await an opportunity which may be months or even years later. The one commodity that prisoners have is time. When it comes, the retribution will include but not be limited to stabbings, mayhem and even killings. It happens literally every day in some prison or other in the U.S.

But don't rely on my opinion. Perhaps you could talk to a gang member who has been in prison and ask about the gang mindset. It's a very big problem.

[R~O~S]

Which would go right back to those "consistently non compliant" I did indeed mention, which is not by any stretch of the imagination every prisoner, nor should every prisoner be treated as if they were.

[Casecase]

Looks like I'm in the minority around here, but I'm sorry, I don't agree that treating violent criminals well in prison and giving them a bunch of opportunities leads to them changing their ways once they're on the outside. They might behave better while in prison, so they can get better things, but once they're back on the outside they have no such incentive (especially if they know that going back to prison won't be all that bad). The only way to know if a murderer or rapist or pedofile is truly reformed vs. putting on a good act in prison is to let them loose. I don't like the public in general and me and my loved ones in particular being a test case.

While this is a good story and I'm glad that some of the prisoners defended the guard, it still does not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling towards the criminals.


IMO

[gnm109]

Looks like I'm in the minority around here, but I'm sorry, I don't agree that treating violent criminals well in prison and giving them a bunch of opportunities leads to them changing their ways once they're on the outside. They might behave better while in prison, so they can get better things, but once they're back on the outside they have no such incentive (especially if they know that going back to prison won't be all that bad). The only way to know if a murderer or rapist or pedofile is truly reformed vs. putting on a good act in prison is to let them loose. I don't like the public in general and me and my loved ones in particular being a test case.

While this is a good story and I'm glad that some of the prisoners defended the guard, it still does not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling towards the criminals.
IMO

I agree with your point here. I think that treatment in prison should be humane but firm and very basic but with no expectation that prison will change their outlook upon release.

The real completion of my own personal education came in dealing with criminals as an attorney. I had once though that they were like you and me, ordinaly folk that merely got caught up in a bad situation. To my amazement I discovered that they think in a fundamentally different manner. I don't know whether it's genetic or environmental, either.

They seem, in general, to lack that sense of caution when they are faced with a situation that has a criminal aspect. If there is choice A which is safe, legal and ordinary, or choice B which is illegal but perhaps is more satisfying or offers quick monetary gain, they almost always choose choice B. I simply can't figure them out.

Even asking them why they did what they did, most of the time they can't tell you. It's an enigma.

So, putting them in prison is to protect the rest of society, not to rehabilitate them. They don't change in prison, often they get more hardened. Some of them will never get out and probably shouldn't.

I sure wish I had some of the answers. In the meantime, we just build more prisons.