Michael Jackson - 9/28 thru 10/6 [Archive] - Page 2

warhorse46

10-02-2009, 10:33 AM

If a child is beaten by their father, is he or she a victim?

If a person is the subject of malicious prosection, is he not a victim?

If a person shows up in your ER, after his head caught on fire, would he be a victim or a complainer?

Because his name is Michael Jackson does not make him any less a victim, than any other human being.

You have no way to know with any certainty whether he was or wasn't beaten by his father, and if he was, how unfair it is to diminish that abuse to nothing more than whining.

He didn't want to get high, he wanted to sleep and to have relief from pain, and was the victim of greedy and unethical doctors, who cashed in instead of providing him with appropriate treatment. He didn't die from an accidental overdose, he was the victim of homicide.

This man spent a lot of his time visiting children's hospital's, not to molest the dying children, but to bring them love and joy, and he wasn't acting like a victim then.

He spent a lot of time, energy and money helping people around the world, and never complained about being a victim, as he did these things.

Michael Jackson tried to do good in this world despite the adversity constantly surrounding him, and still surrounding him even in death.

Its...my opinion.

Yes MJ did do some good things, I do not deny that. But he made sure the press was aware of his good deeds & were around for photo ops many times.
MJ may have been introduced to drugs via a legitimate method but he chose to continue the illegal use of them & wallow in the poor me I am a victim quagmire, not taking responsibility for his behavior long after the reason for the analgesics was healed. He tried his best to portray himself as a helpless victim to the world everytime he was caught in inappropriate behavior. Typical drug addicted behavior, IMO.

warhorse46

10-02-2009, 11:13 AM

I simply don't understand how someone can have chronic inflammatory lung problems and that isn't a contributing factor when dying under any anesthetic. Am I missing something here?

I had to have a lung X-ray before a spinal block for hip replacement. Any medical posters who can answer this?

imo

Inflamation is simply the body's reaction to an outside irritant. Pulmonary inflamation can be a precursor to lung disease if not treated over a very long period of time but is not usually life threatening in itself. Pleursiy is lung inflamation.

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 11:29 AM

Inflamation is simply the body's reaction to an outside irritant. Pulmonary inflamation can be a precursor to lung disease if not treated over a very long period of time but is not usually life threatening in itself. Pleursiy is lung inflamation.

So I would say Murray is not in trouble for that part in the autopsy. imo

GentleBreeze

10-02-2009, 11:58 AM

Yes, and I see more reasons why a conviction would be impossible.:bored:

imo

Such as?

You have a rather healthy individual that lost his life.
No damage to the heart, liver or kidneys. Where is the long drug abuse that would most certainly damage those organs if there was constant use?

No illegal drugs found, no traces of alcohol. All that is there is what Murray said he gave him.

Are you saying that Murray who was a cardiologist didn't even listen to his patient's heart and lungs or even noticed his patient when he was attending to him?

imo

GentleBreeze

10-02-2009, 12:01 PM

I see no legitimate reason why they wouldn't bring charges against Murray. Do you?

No, I don't and this makes sense why LAPD has not come out and said Murray was not at fault in MJs death.

imo

GentleBreeze

10-02-2009, 12:05 PM

Now look, you have repeated that over and over again. I know what the ME said. We all do. You also know that doesn't mean charges will be brought. Don't you, or did you miss that part?:rolleyes:

I keep having to repeat that.:sleep:

imo

What are the circumstances for which Murray will be able to get off scott free?

Are you saying this is a justifiable homicide?
An act of war?
Self-defense?
A state authorized execution?

Which category does Murray fit in? Do you have a link showing which one will fit?

:confused:

Lainey

10-02-2009, 01:52 PM

From what I've read MJ had none of these symptoms.

flipflop

10-02-2009, 01:54 PM

Joe Jackson to Branca: "Mr. Who?"
Posted Oct 2nd 2009 1:38PM by TMZ Staff

Joe Jackson just arrived at the L.A. County Courthouse in the Michael Jackson probate case.

As we first reported, we expect some family members along with attorney Brian Oxman and possibly Katherine Jackson's lawyers, to challenge John Branca as the named co-executor in Jackson's will. We're told they have a document showing Jackson fired Branca. It's true, Jackson fired the lawyer several times over 29 years, but Jackson rehired Branca a week before his death.

The judge will be all ears at 1:30 PM PT when the parties discuss how well Jackson's 3 kids are doing with the guardianship.

By the way, when asked about Branca, Joe said, "Mr. Who?"

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0Snnm0K6o

daniel green

10-02-2009, 01:57 PM

Do you think Murray should have had him tubed during the times he was giving him Diprivan? I wonder if Diprivan is ever used without having a patient tubed. They are tubed in surgery I think.

Also wouldn't the inflamed lungs have something to do with oxygen saturation levels?

If it used without a patient being intubated.

daniel green

10-02-2009, 02:06 PM

Not sure what you mean by "what you have read"? He definitely lost weight and I would presume that with chronic inflammation of the lungs you would have shortness of breath. Even people with chronic bronchitis or asthma experience shortness of breath at times even when not in the acute phase. Having said that I did say don't know if Halperin was accurate or not. Just thougt it was interesting since I read it in his book prior to this autopsy being released. :confused:

He also makes a lot of claims that just weren't so.

1) MJ had no liver damage

2) He'd actually gained weight. He weighed about 15 lbs more than he did when he was booked on the molestation charges.

Lainey

10-02-2009, 02:06 PM

Not sure what you mean by "what you have read"? He definitely lost weight and I would presume that with chronic inflammation of the lungs you would have shortness of breath. Even people with chronic bronchitis or asthma experience shortness of breath at times even when not in the acute phase. Having said that I did say don't know if Halperin was accurate or not. Just thougt it was interesting since I read it in his book prior to this autopsy being released. :confused:

Michael weighed 136 lbs which isn't a loss of weight. He was rehearsing long hours so couldn't have been that short of breath, definitely no cirrhosis...I don't think he had any of those symtoms. At 50 anyone can get SOB at times.

daniel green

10-02-2009, 02:16 PM

Jackson’s biographer Halperin also claims that the pop legend “has emphysema and chronic gastrointestinal bleeding, which his doctors have had a lot of trouble stopping.”

Halperin says that due to the ailment, Jackson, who turned 50 this year, “can barely speak” and that the “vision in his left eye is 95 percent gone.”

And while the breathing woes are surely something to worry about, Halperin claims that “it’s the bleeding that’s the most problematic part. It could kill him.”

http://www.alphaone.org/news/michael-jackson-biographer-claims-he-has-alpha-1-and-is-in-desperate-need-of-a-lung-transplant

Well, he didn't need a lung transplant and he was not having any gastrointestinal bleeding.

So much for IH's claims. :rolleyes:

Firehead11

10-02-2009, 02:24 PM

MK~ULTRA

10-02-2009, 02:42 PM

Bolded to address.

According to Dr. Sam Vaknin, self-proclaimed narcissist and author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited, individuals with personality disorders have many things in common:

Lack of individual accountability that results in a victim mentality and blaming others, society and the universe for their problems

More at link: http://www.focusas.com/PersonalityDisorders.html

Imo, there's a lot of that going around these days.

I agree. Plenty of that going around these days.

warhorse46

10-02-2009, 03:44 PM

Hi WH,

I don't know of course if this is true or not but according to Ian Halperin in his book "Unmasked" July 2009, he claims that MJ had Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency. He also claimed in his book that he had access to MJ's medical records. Never really gave his claim much thought until the autopsy revealed he had chronic lung inflammation. Wonder now if this can be true? What do you think?

Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency
Overview

Alpha-1 antitrypsin (AAT) deficiency is condition passed down through families in which the liver does not make enough of a protein that protects the lungs and liver from damage. The condition can lead to emphysema and liver disease.
Symptoms

* Shortness of breath with and without exertion, and other symptoms of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
* Symptoms of cirrhosis
* Unintentional weight loss
* Wheezing

Prognosis

Some people with this deficiency will not develop liver or lung disease. However, emphysema and cirrhosis can be deadly

https://www.google.com/health/ref/Alpha-1+antitrypsin+deficiency

I don't think that is true. Inflamation is not one of the symptoms listed & that syndrome attacks primarily the liver.

warhorse46

10-02-2009, 03:46 PM

So I would say Murray is not in trouble for that part in the autopsy. imo

I don't think so. IMO the pulmonary inflamation is not a contributing factor in MJ's death.

warhorse46

10-02-2009, 03:48 PM

Pleurisy is inflammation/infection of the membrane surrounding the lungs not in the lungs that causes pain when you take a breath or cough. The main symptom of pleurisy is pain in the chest. Some people feel the pain in the shoulder as well.

Yes I am very aware of what pleurisy is. The membranes around the lungs are considered part of the lungs.

daniel green

10-02-2009, 04:26 PM

snipped

Dramatic hyperbole indeed.

To assert that if Murray is not charged with a crime, MJ's death will be a "state authorized execution" is not only dramatic hyperbole, it is a completly ridiculous thing to say.

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 04:53 PM

If Murray is not charged, what would be the legitimate reasons why he wouldn't be?

We've been over reasons time after time regarding this subject and they were legitimate reasons. Either your memory is faulty or you're baiting. imo

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 04:54 PM

To assert that if Murray is not charged with a crime, MJ's death will be a "state authorized execution" is not only dramatic hyperbole, it is a completly ridiculous thing to say.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 05:01 PM

I would have preferred to use pm's, but as you already know, you have yours turned off, at least to me. In any case please don't use my old nic anymore if you can help it. Thanks.

You're off topic. :rolleyes:

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 05:18 PM

As we first reported, we expect some family members along with attorney Brian Oxman and possibly Katherine Jackson's lawyers, to challenge John Branca as the named co-executor in Jackson's will.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0Snum9ZTt

You know, if I were the judge I would be saying enough is enough. Joe isn't even in the will so he should have no issue with it at all. I would tell Katherine, keep your hubby out of this. One more filing from her and she might be losing her 40%. Enough is enough.

The court is watching over every damn penny as it is. What are they going to pull? Talk about greed. Leave some for Michael
s children, dam it.

UPDATE 5:05 PM ET -- Katherine Jackson's attorney, Burt Levitch, just told the judge the family would rather see a member of the family be the administrator of Jackson's estate.

_____________________________________

Well, of course they would. Maybe Joe. Jackson made it plain in his will he didn't want his family involved in handling the estate.

I wonder how long the judge is going to let that family play this silly game?

IMO

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 05:22 PM

UPDATE 5:17 PM ET -- The judge has said everything will remain the same -- with regards to the special administrators' power of the estate -- through through the end of the year

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0SodqjZDS

Through the end of the year????? WTF!!!!! This will never end. What's up with this judge? imo

daniel green

10-02-2009, 05:32 PM

If Murray is not charged, what would be the legitimate reasons why he wouldn't be?

It was not a crime, for starters?

Not enough evidence?

Grandy jury came back with a no bill?

GentleBreeze

10-02-2009, 05:46 PM

We've been over reasons time after time regarding this subject and they were legitimate reasons. Either your memory is faulty or you're baiting. imo

Well my memory is actually pretty good and I did a search on your posts just to make sure and I still don't see where you linked to the law showing the criteria under where Murray would specifically be excluded from being charged with homicide.

imo

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 05:57 PM

It was not a crime, for starters?

Not enough evidence?

Grandy jury came back with a no bill? I have to disagree, daniel... IMO, it IS a crime.. According to the Link below, Cathy Smith, who injected the fatal drug overdose to John Belushi, spent 3 years in Prison for Manslaughter.. Which could very well be the charge for Dr. Murray.. She "administered" the fatal overdose, and he died... and I do believe it was even at his request..... Do you not see this as a possibility in Dr. Murray's situation..??

http://www.freebase.com/view/en/cathy_smith

Poochie

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 06:07 PM

Well my memory is actually pretty good and I did a search on your posts just to make sure and I still don't see where you linked to the law showing the criteria under where Murray would specifically be excluded from being charged with homicide.

imo Hi GB... I really don't see how Dr. Murray could be excluded.... If the Coroner ruled MJ's death a Homicide, and Dr. Murray was the person who administered the fatal drug overdose, (acute propofol intoxication), there is no logical reason as to why he wouldn't be charged, IMO.. Please see my post and Link re John Belushi's death from a drug overdose.. Not much difference, as I see it... Except that Murray was a "Doctor"... IMO

Poochie

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 06:12 PM

Lady..I have to assume you have been told most of this by someone..as when you are coming out of aneasthesia with Endotracheal tube insitue ( place) your perspective is somewhat squewed..Anyway...those O2 Sat numbers are BAD (77%) especially when you are intubated and on respirator...That nasty nurse should have kept her mouth shut..judgement has no place in situations such as yiurs..but you should be grateful you had responsible people around you to make sure you didnt have underlining issues....and that my friend is what HC professionals should do..

Having said that...HC professionals should never ever do what Murray did...no one should be put at risk whether they ask for it or not...there should always be support systems in place to deal with complications..and it seems Murray did not have those in place..I am still hoping to see his sorry buttocks in court to answer that simple question...WHY put your patient at such risk..when knowing full well what could happen???

LMS:w00t: Thank you..!! "WHY put your patient at such risk..when knowing full well what could happen???" is the million dollar question.... And even WORSE than that....... his patient died...!! The Dr. has a lot to answer for, IMO

Poochie

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 06:21 PM

UPDATE 5:05 PM ET -- Katherine Jackson's attorney, Burt Levitch, just told the judge the family would rather see a member of the family be the administrator of Jackson's estate.

_____________________________________

Well, of course they would. Maybe Joe. Jackson made it plain in his will he didn't want his family involved in handling the estate.

I wonder how long the judge is going to let that family play this silly game?

IMO Silly game indeed..!! I agree LadyFuzz... FGS... MJ made it abundantly clear in the Will exactly what he wanted in the event of his death.. With all due respect to this Judge, it appears that it doesn't really matter what the deceased wanted or didn't want... even if it is in writing..!! IMO

Poochie

Cardinal

10-02-2009, 06:25 PM

Silly game indeed..!! I agree LadyFuzz... FGS... MJ made it abundantly clear in the Will exactly what he wanted in the event of his death.. With all due respect to this Judge, it appears that it doesn't really matter what the deceased wanted or didn't want... even if it is in writing..!! IMO

Poochie

The judge hasn't done anything, yet, to contravene the terms of MJ's will. I think he's using passive resistance to avoid an adversarial situation that won't help anyone. Particularly those children.

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 06:31 PM

The judge hasn't done anything, yet, to contravene the terms of MJ's will. I think he's using passive resistance to avoid an adversarial situation that won't help anyone. Particularly those children. Could very well be, Cardinal... I do hope he maintains his "resistance"... I firmly believe there is a very good reason that MJ made the provisions that he did..

Poochie

Cardinal

10-02-2009, 06:38 PM

Could very well be, Cardinal... I do hope he maintains his "resistance"... I firmly believe there is a very good reason that MJ made the provisions that he did..

Poochie

I do too, Poochie Pie. And I agree that MJ knew exactly what he was doing in naming the Executors of his estate. I doubt this is the first contentious probate situation that judge has seen, and I believe he has his own methods for dealing with it.

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 06:44 PM

Ohhhh..YVW Poochie.....I only wish to hear the explanation in a courtrrom from Murray for his explanations to his course of treatment of his patient..His mindset, his support system, his backup plans if complications occur..( knowing what drugs he was pushing into his patient)..O2 Cylinders are not helpful if a patient isnt breathing on their own.so would simply love to hear his "Plan"!!

All HC givers have to document what they do..SOAP..Symptoms..Observations...Assessment..and Plan......Hummming...... was he trying to ween MJ or was he trying to treat his patient with medications to what end????...........I have to say...ALL HC Providers need to look forward..beyond the "Moment' and be prepared for the consequences of such treatments..and need to document "The Plan" to treat those consequences...I really rather doubt Murray documentd anything but his invoicing for time spent with patient....Course I am rather disallusioned with this guy!!

LMS Lynda, your Medical expertise, as well as Warhorse's is very much appreciated..!! With that said, even a "layman" could look at this case and see that sooooo many things were wrong.. (As you stated above).. there are protocols that have to be followed.. and apparently were NOT.. After all, Michael IS dead... and his death WAS ruled a homicide.. Pretty simple, imo.. thanks so much for the reply..

Poochie

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 06:48 PM

I do too, Poochie Pie. And I agree that MJ knew exactly what he was doing in naming the Executors of his estate. I doubt this is the first contentious probate situation that judge has seen, and I believe he has his own methods for dealing with it. You are probably right.. I imagine has has seen worse situations... Sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes..!!

Poochie

Rayosunshine

10-02-2009, 06:52 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/6252661/Michael-Jackson-autopsy-reveals-punctures-tattoos-scars.html

Holy Cow! A balloon pump, now that is going well beyond what is normal. Wow. I just don't see how they had the time to do that once he arrived at the hospital. It's been a long time since I cared for someone on the balloon pump, so I'm sure the technology is streamlined now. All I can say is, Wow.

Rayosunshine

10-02-2009, 06:55 PM

Ohhhh..YVW Poochie.....I only wish to hear the explanation in a courtrrom from Murray for his explanations to his course of treatment of his patient..His mindset, his support system, his backup plans if complications occur..( knowing what drugs he was pushing into his patient)..O2 Cylinders are not helpful if a patient isnt breathing on their own.so would simply love to hear his "Plan"!!

All HC givers have to document what they do..SOAP..Symptoms..Observations...Assessment..and Plan......Hummming...... was he trying to ween MJ or was he trying to treat his patient with medications to what end????...........I have to say...ALL HC Providers need to look forward..beyond the "Moment' and be prepared for the consequences of such treatments..and need to document "The Plan" to treat those consequences...I really rather doubt Murray documentd anything but his invoicing for time spent with patient....Course I am rather disallusioned with this guy!!

LMS

Lynda, think we could get Dr. M in a room all to ourselves, so we can question him to the limits? I'd give almost anything to be able to do that.

Rayosunshine

10-02-2009, 06:59 PM

Oh my..War..are you still trying to rationalize with people who just dont understand anatomy and physiology..not to mention autopsy and what they can see with their very own eyes..??

You are far more tolerant than myself..anyway..I am sure if MJ had such advanced Lung disease...it would have become an obvious (at autopsy) and notations would have been in their findings..and would not have been unable to rule out natural causes...so find this claim of Lung disease a red herring..He sure did seem to be able to move around on that stage??

Salut Warhorse..I bow to your resilience!!

LMS

Lynda, do you know if there were any bronchodilators found in the home? I can't recall - interesting though, cause if I'm not mistaken, the black population has the highest rate of asthma and it is often associated with skin disorders (psoriasis, I think), all a part of the immune disorders.

Rayosunshine

10-02-2009, 07:02 PM

Hi GB... I really don't see how Dr. Murray could be excluded.... If the Coroner ruled MJ's death a Homicide, and Dr. Murray was the person who administered the fatal drug overdose, (acute propofol intoxication), there is no logical reason as to why he wouldn't be charged, IMO.. Please see my post and Link re John Belushi's death from a drug overdose.. Not much difference, as I see it... Except that Murray was a "Doctor"... IMO

Poochie

It 's spelled "GOD" - good old doc!

Rayosunshine

10-02-2009, 07:13 PM

You are so right Rayo...and if the truth be known..I really did not care for MJ one bit..AND that he was demanding such treatment..It all comes down to a professional Big Honcho Specialist (who no doubt during his career made a differance in some lives)..The fact for me remains he compromised his "Ethical" position..and put his patient at risk..whether or not his patient wanted something that could kill him..His high paid Medical Person ( Murray) not only should have said NO..he should have at LEAST covered his (Assets) backside if was going to pursuit such treatment..and for that alone he is one reckless HC Provider and I do hope he never prescribes or treats another human being!! Murray lacks a conscience not to mention an ethical conscience..so hope he falls bigtime!!

LMS:blink:

You are so right, too, Lynda. I shudder to think how many people are in the care of these types of physicians, esp. those people who do not have the education or know-how to get educated about their healthcare. Sick! Actually makes me very very ill to think about it.

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 07:40 PM

It 's spelled "GOD" - good old doc! Yep..!! "illusions of grandeur" that so many of them have...

Poochie

daniel green

10-02-2009, 07:42 PM

Hi GB... I really don't see how Dr. Murray could be excluded.... If the Coroner ruled MJ's death a Homicide, and Dr. Murray was the person who administered the fatal drug overdose, (acute propofol intoxication), there is no logical reason as to why he wouldn't be charged, IMO..snipped
Poochie

A designation of homicide means that Jackson died at the hands of another, but does not necessarily mean a crime was committed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32542682/

This has been posted many, many, many times.

daniel green

10-02-2009, 07:44 PM

Lynda, think we could get Dr. M in a room all to ourselves, so we can question him to the limits? I'd give almost anything to be able to do that.

Yikes. :scared:

daniel green

10-02-2009, 07:49 PM

Bronchial Dilators?..I have no idea...and really doesnt matter unless the ME found high levels in his system...Pre-disposition to any disease does apply either unless treatments can be substantiated...Lung disease is really easy to see in any post-mortem..as Lungs are exposed for visual examinations..however..in MJ's case....never had there been such a suggestion that MJ had such a disease or Lung Function Isue raised...Sofind this whole line of inquiry a red herring.......

snipped:

Be that as it may, the autopsy found MJ to have chronic lung inflamation and the ME said it would have led to shortness of breath.

How that is a "red herrring" I have no clue. :huh:

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 07:51 PM

You are so right Rayo...and if the truth be known..I really did not care for MJ one bit..AND that he was demanding such treatment..It all comes down to a professional Big Honcho Specialist (who no doubt during his career made a differance in some lives)..The fact for me remains he compromised his "Ethical" position..and put his patient at risk..whether or not his patient wanted something that could kill him..His high paid Medical Person ( Murray) not only should have said NO..he should have at LEAST covered his (Assets) backside if was going to pursuit such treatment..and for that alone he is one reckless HC Provider and I do hope he never prescribes or treats another human being!! Murray lacks a conscience not to mention an ethical conscience..so hope he falls bigtime!!

LMS:blink: "I really did not care for MJ one bit..AND that he was demanding such treatment"... See Lynda... THIS is why your posts are are so fair and logical..!! and so very welcome on this board.. (to me, at least).. You are honest in stating that you were NOT a Fan, and yet you have the expertise and insight to see that Dr. Murray has failed miserably in his oaths and duties as a Medical Doctor... and should be held accountable.. Thanks again.. you are very much appreciated..

Poochie

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 08:05 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32542682/

This has been posted many, many, many times. Yes... I realize it has been posted many, many, many times daniel... It may be that "legally" it will be determined that "no crime was committed"... However, in my heart, and in my opinion, a crime was committed... MJ did not ask to be killed.. He trusted this Doctor with his Life.. and imo, didn't anticipate never waking up again..

Poochie

daniel green

10-02-2009, 08:15 PM

Yes... I realize it has been posted many, many, many times daniel... It may be that "legally" it will be determined that "no crime was committed"... However, in my heart, and in my opinion, a crime was committed...snipped

Oh, my bad, then.

You said you did not know how it could not, logically, be a crime. And asked me about it. That is why I posted the actual definition of why homicide may or may not be a crime.

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 09:10 PM

Lady..I have to assume you have been told most of this by someone..as when you are coming out of aneasthesia with Endotracheal tube insitue ( place) your perspective is somewhat squewed..Anyway...those O2 Sat numbers are BAD (77%) especially when you are intubated and on respirator...That nasty nurse should have kept her mouth shut..judgement has no place in situations such as yiurs..but you should be grateful you had responsible people around you to make sure you didnt have underlining issues....and that my friend is what HC professionals should do..

Having said that...HC professionals should never ever do what Murray did...no one should be put at risk whether they ask for it or not...there should always be support systems in place to deal with complications..and it seems Murray did not have those in place..I am still hoping to see his sorry buttocks in court to answer that simple question...WHY put your patient at such risk..when knowing full well what could happen???

LMS:w00t:

bolding mine

I remember everything. I was sleeping when I was jolted awake by a very painful needle being pushed just above the inside of my elbow to get arterial blood. That hurts too.

I was not on a respirator. The anesthesiologist told me the tube was in in case he had to put me on a respirator.

I have no idea what type of anesthesia I had but I sure came awake all the way and fast.

Anyway back on topic. I still feel Murray won't be charged. imo

RootBeer

10-02-2009, 10:08 PM

I had surgery earlier this year and had to take pain killers. Boy did they do a number on me. I don't wish that on anyone.

Poochie Pie

10-02-2009, 10:28 PM

Oh, my bad, then.

You said you did not know how it could not, logically, be a crime. And asked me about it. That is why I posted the actual definition of why homicide may or may not be a crime. Actually, I didn't "ask" you about it... My post, if you will look back, was to GB... However, I do appreciate the reply daniel... And I STILL do not know how it could not logically be a crime... In my heart, that is... I really was just musing out loud... I wonder how many of us on here would quickly "accept" it not being a crime if it was one of our loved ones that this happened to...

Poochie

LadyFuzz

10-02-2009, 10:31 PM

You know what??I will not even debate this topic..as I have been at thousands of bedsides of your particular situation..and I would bet my license whatever you thought..understood likely wasnt even close what the whole picture was...Sure makes a huge difference on you perspective when one is the caregiver, and one is the person with a tube down their throat being spoken to....In essance..you, under that situation likely has no clue on the whole picture..and all the facts..but it is obvious you will believe what you wish....

I do believe Murray will be made to answer for what he did..and likely some charges will be laid..Course, that is from my own perspective.. 4 decades of "Acute Care" nursing at the bedsides of very similar circumstances....I do have to call things the way I have experienced..
MAYBE you are that ONE in a Million who have super abilities to understand medical things far beyond your personal knowledge...just cause you know!! Good for you....I wish there were more around who could grasp all that is happening in traumatic circumstances..I truly do!

LMS

Thanks Lynda, that means a lot coming from you. It was part of my job to be able to grasp what is happening in traumatic circumstances since I lived it every day I worked. :smile:

GentleBreeze

10-02-2009, 11:02 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32542682/

This has been posted many, many, many times.

Yep, it has but not one explanation in it as to how it wouldn't necessarily mean a crime was committed :rolleyes:

"A designation of homicide means that Jackson died at the hands of another, but does not necessarily mean a crime was committed."

Really? Then what makes it not necessarily a crime?

imo

warhorse46

10-02-2009, 11:43 PM

Be that as it may, the autopsy found MJ to have chronic lung inflamation and the ME said it would have led to shortness of breath.

How that is a "red herrring" I have no clue. :huh:

Because probably 50% of the population walk around with pulmonary inflamation @ any given point in time & most of them don't even know it. It is not a disease in itself but MAY be a precursor to lung disease if it lasts long enough & is untreated. It rarely caused or contributes to death. It could have been something as simple as MJ was around some sort of irritant possibly a grass or plant pollen. People who have had O2 or been on vents have pulmonary inflamation sometimes.

Rayosunshine

10-02-2009, 11:53 PM

bolding mine

I remember everything. I was sleeping when I was jolted awake by a very painful needle being pushed just above the inside of my elbow to get arterial blood. That hurts too.

I was not on a respirator. The anesthesiologist told me the tube was in in case he had to put me on a respirator.

I have no idea what type of anesthesia I had but I sure came awake all the way and fast.

Anyway back on topic. I still feel Murray won't be charged. imo

LadyFuzz, so sorry you had such a bad time in recovery. Yes, the arterial blood gasses do hurt, the artery lies right against the nerve - arterial blood draws can be dangerous if not done properly. You were most likely given a reversal agent and this is why you woke up so fast, but sometimes with the reversal agent, the anesthetic will have a longer half life and you will re-anesthetize and need re-reversal, or be maintained on a ventilator if not breathing on your own. Post anesthesia care is a very serious, high stress job, but it is certainly enjoyable, especially when a patient has a smooth transition with well controlled pain. I can't stand to see people in pain, needless to say, most of my post anesthesia patients were very very happy. OT, you should have reported the nurse who made the comment about your smoking being the cause of respiratory problem to the hospital administration and the appropriate board of nursing. What she did is not acceptable in any way whatsoever. All nurses MUST be non-judgmental at ALL times, and compassionate as well.

Rayosunshine

10-03-2009, 12:00 AM

CALCRIM 520. Murder With Malice Aforethought

The defendant is charged [in Count ______] with murder.

To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:

1. The defendant committed an act that caused the death of (another person/ [or] a fetus);

[AND]

2. When the defendant acted, (he/she) had a state of mind called malice aforethought(;/.)

[AND

3. (he/she) killed without lawful (excuse/[or] justification)

There are two kinds of malice aforethought, express malice and implied malice. Proof of either is sufficient to establish the state of mind required for murder.

The defendant acted with express malice if (he/she) unlawfully intended to kill.

The defendant acted with implied malice if:

1. (he/she) intentionally committed an act;

2. The natural consequences of the act were dangerous to human life;

3. At the time (he/she) acted, (he/she) knew (his/her) act was dangerous to human life;

AND

4. (he/she) deliberately acted with conscious disregard for (human/ [or] fetal) life.

Malice aforethought does not require hatred or ill will toward the victim. It is a mental state that must be formed before the act that causes death is committed. It does not require deliberation or the passage of any particular period of time.

[A fetus is an unborn human being that has progressed beyond the embryonic stage after major structures have been outlined, which occurs at seven to eight weeks of development.]

[An act causes death if the death is the direct, natural, and probable consequence of the act and the death would not have happened without the act. A natural and probable consequence is one that a reasonable person would know is likely to happen if nothing unusual intervenes. In deciding whether a consequence is natural and probable, consider all of the circumstances established by the evidence.]

[There may be more than one cause of death. An act causes death only if it is a substantial factor in causing the death. A substantial factor is more than a trivial or remote factor. However, it does not need to be the only factor that causes the death.]

[(A/An) <insert description of person owing duty> has a legal duty to (help/care for/rescue/warn/maintain the property of/ <insert other required action[s]>) <insert description of decedent/person to whom duty is owed>.

If you conclude that the defendant owed a duty to <insert name of decedent>, and the defendant failed to perform that duty, (his/her) failure to act is the same as doing a negligent or injurious act.]

http://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/index.html

If only the law would use that information alone, Dr. Murray would be guilty of meeting the majority of the criteria for the crime of Murder. He was recklessly negligent, performed in a manner that does not even meet minimal standards of care and had the knowledge that doing so could result in injury/death of another. I hope they lock him up for good!

daniel green

10-03-2009, 12:37 AM

Because probably 50% of the population walk around with pulmonary inflamation @ any given point in time & most of them don't even know it.snipped.

They can. Or they can be short of breath with it, as the ME pointed out, about MJ's case.

daniel green

10-03-2009, 12:41 AM

Firehead11

10-03-2009, 07:46 AM

Our sources tell us Dr. Murray had Applied Pharmacy send Propofol by Fed Ex to the address of Nicole Alvarez, the mother of the doctor's 7th child.

We've also confirmed with our law enforcement sources in the weeks preceding Jackson's death Dr. Murray was living at Alverez's home during the days ... and only went to Jackson's home at night when he administered drugs to the singer.

Our sources say they have traced some but not all of the Propofol bottles found in Jackson's home after he died, to Applied Pharmacy.

Alvarez has been uncooperative with law enforcement and was forced to appear before the L.A. County Grand Jury last month to testify.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0Ss9NoGON

Hmmmm, I would consider this report part of the LE dotting all the i's and crossing their t's.

GentleBreeze

10-03-2009, 09:28 AM

GentleBreeze

10-03-2009, 09:33 AM

CALCRIM:
505. Justifiable Homicide: Self-Defense or Defense of Another
506. Justifiable Homicide: Defending Against Harm to Person Within Home or on Property
507. Justifiable Homicide: by Public Officer
508. Justifiable Homicide: Citizen Arrest (Non-Peace Officer)
509. Justifiable Homicide: Non-Peace Officer Preserving the Peace
510. Excusable Homicide: Accident
511. Excusable Homicide: Accident in the Heat of Passion
512. Presumption that Killing Not Criminal

http://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/index.html

Thank you.

I see no justifiable homicide listed that would resolve Murray of homicide charges.

Just as I thought.

imo

Firehead11

10-03-2009, 09:45 AM

Very very interesting.

IMO

Wasn't one of the items holding LE up was connecting Murray to getting the drugs? IIRC, they were looking for recipts that connected him to the drugs.

Poochie Pie

10-03-2009, 10:24 AM

Wasn't one of the items holding LE up was connecting Murray to getting the drugs? IIRC, they were looking for recipts that connected him to the drugs. Wow..!!! I recall the same thing Firehead.. Looks like they have definitely connected Dr. Murray to getting the propofol....imo And now his girlfriend is involved.. Like I said.. Wow..

Poochie

warhorse46

10-03-2009, 11:07 AM

Wasn't one of the items holding LE up was connecting Murray to getting the drugs? IIRC, they were looking for recipts that connected him to the drugs.

Like I stated previously to those who were romping & stomping because charges had not been filed already, LE is taking their time, building a strong case before they file charges. They are closing any loop hole they can. Building a solid case brick by brick.

warhorse46

10-03-2009, 11:11 AM

They can. Or they can be short of breath with it, as the ME pointed out, about MJ's case.

The overwhelming odds are the person is not short of breath tho. Pulmonary inflamation is a fairly common occurrance & not a life threatening condition nearly all of the time. It is a red herring because it was not a contributor to MJ's death, it is simply an innocent finding of the autopsy. But it is a good issue for a defense lawyer to latch onto to cloud the case with smoke & mirrors.

Poochie Pie

10-03-2009, 12:24 PM

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 04:39 PM

That is a frightening experience, LF.

I watched my mother wake up with the tube in (not on a respirator) and how scared her eyes were. She motioned for a pen and paper and wrote her questions on it, immediately upon awakening.

I did too. I was writing fast and furious. :angry:

daniel green

10-03-2009, 04:40 PM

The overwhelming odds are the person is not short of breath tho. Pulmonary inflamation is a fairly common occurrance & not a life threatening condition nearly all of the time. It is a red herring because it was not a contributor to MJ's death, it is simply an innocent finding of the autopsy. But it is a good issue for a defense lawyer to latch onto to cloud the case with smoke & mirrors.

Oh, goodness, I have not heard a thing about Dr M's lawyer even mentioning the chronic lung inflamation. :confused: There are no "innocent findings." The findings are what they are. The ME said MJ suffered from chronic lung inflamation that would have led to shortness of breath but did not lead to his death.

It is just one of the findings from the autopsy--like the baldness, the tats, the scars, the injection marks, etc.

daniel green

10-03-2009, 04:48 PM

I did too. I was writing fast and furious. :angry:

Horrible. :sad: I am so sorry to hear that.

My mother wrote "what is my disease?" I will never forget that.

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 04:52 PM

Horrible. :sad: I am so sorry to hear that.

My mother wrote "what is my disease?" I will never forget that.

How sad. It actually brought tears to my eyes. I hope you're mother came through that OK.

daniel green

10-03-2009, 04:52 PM

The overwhelming odds are the person is not short of breath tho.snipped.

It doesn't make a difference one way or another (except that it was probably an even WORSE idea to give MJ anesthetics night after night after night, by different docs, for a decade), but it appears in this case, from the notes of the ME, it would have.

I think that the fact that the ME called it CHRONIC inflamation, as opposed to say, inflamation accompanying an irritant or an infection, is what makes it more likely that MJ suffered from shortness of breath.

daniel green

10-03-2009, 04:57 PM

How sad. It actually brought tears to my eyes. I hope you're mother came through that OK.

Thank you, LF. To mine, too. :sad:

She did make it through that. She has fibrotic lungs and she was traveling home from visiting us for the holidays a couple years ago, by car, and fell asleep. My father and brother could not wake her up. They called her doc on his cell phone and he said call 911. She was in a coma when she got to the ER. Nit oxide poisoning, from not being able to breathe properly and the nit ox levels being off the charts.

So, she had no idea when she woke up in the ER with that tube in her throat and all the IV's, machines, etc, what had happened and was utterly terrified.

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:00 PM

Thank you.

I see no justifiable homicide listed that would resolve Murray of homicide charges.

Just as I thought.

imo

The law is not black and white. There is a gray area. It can be interpreted differently by each person. imo

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:12 PM

etc.. like the fact that he was an otherwise healthy man until he was injected with drugs, in lethal amounts, by Murray.

If its not an innocent finding, what is it?

Drugs Jackson wanted and paid large sums of money to get. He was paying his own doctor to give them to him. He was a drug addict and getting many drugs by different doctors under different names. He is not an innocent victim if that's what you're saying. JMO

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:21 PM

I don't think any rational person can interpret this incident as self defense, defense of property, cop in the line of duty...etc. I believe that either of the jury instructions for either manslaughter or 2nd degree murder fit the facts perfectly, leaving no questionable "gray area".

imo

First of all, how would you have any idea what the jury instructions would be? They are decided by the prosecution and the defense in unison with the judge after both sides rest.

Second, how would you be able to say what or how a juror would interpret the instructions?

imo

GentleBreeze

10-03-2009, 05:25 PM

I don't think any rational person can interpret this incident as self defense, defense of property, cop in the line of duty...etc. I believe that either of the jury instructions for either manslaughter or 2nd degree murder fit the facts perfectly, leaving no questionable "gray area".

imo

Imo, there are no gray, purple, green or polka dot areas in the law that would make this case anything less than a homicide.

All the jury would have to do is apply the law to this case and there are no gray areas to be found. I agree, it fits like a glove.

imo

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:28 PM

Imo, there are no gray, purple, green or polka dot areas in the law that would make this case anything less than a homicide.

All the jury would have to do is apply the law to this case and there are no gray areas to be found. I agree, it fits like a glove.

imo

You're missing the point. I guess that's because you have no experience in interpreting the law as a police officer, lawyer, or judge. Also no experience in trials doesn't help either. :shrug:

JMO of course

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:37 PM

By reading the standard california jury instructions, which happen to be posted upthread. Special instructions might be decided between the parties and the court, but only as an addition to the standard instructions.

The jury will be instructed to apply the facts to the law, and really in this case, there is not much left up to interpretation. Jackson was a healthy man until he died from the drug overdose. Murray has acknowledged injecting the drugs into him. What is there to interpret?

It would depend on the charge. Also, how about if there really is a victim in the case? imo

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:45 PM

Can you explain why so many legal and medical experts agree with that posters opinion? It appears that she is not the one lacking understanding of the law.

imo

I said experience with understanding the law.

As to talking heads and posters opinions, they mean nothing. imo

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 05:53 PM

Huh? So you think that MJ's death is really a hoax, and he is alive and well? Who do you suppose the dead victims body belongs to?

How much of a victim was Jackson? Certainly not an innocent victim. He knew the danger of dancing with the white rabbit. It was explained to him by Nurse Lee that we know of for sure.

That will come into the trial and go before the jury. Just watch and see.

IF MURRAY IS CHARGED AND IF THERE IS A TRIAL.

JMO

GentleBreeze

10-03-2009, 06:13 PM

You're missing the point. I guess that's because you have no experience in interpreting the law as a police officer, lawyer, or judge. Also no experience in trials doesn't help either. :shrug:

JMO of course

I could have guessed that diatribe was coming.:rolleyes:

You don't worry about what I know. I have been a juror 5 times in my lifetime. A jury is perfectly capable of understanding the laws that applies to the case they are on. Don't worry they will get. It couldn't be more simple to understand.

imo

GentleBreeze

10-03-2009, 06:26 PM

None of which you appear to have.

From the link upthread:

Stan Goldman, criminal law professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, said the autopsy findings would likely bolster a possible prosecution.

“The question for me is not if the prosecution has a stellar case for involuntary manslaughter but if they are going to try to go for some kind of murder,” Goldman said.

Do you think a criminal law professor has less understading of california law than you do?

imo

Stan Goldman is outstanding.

imo

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 08:47 PM

Do we need someone arrested and taken to trial or can we just skip that part and jump to the jury instructions? Anybody know why the poor Doc is not in Jail or been charged by the Coppers and DA, let alone lose his Medical License?

IIRC the last we heard of an official nature was the case was being sent to some experts by LAPD for opinions. They are supposedly waiting on those opinions and going to the DA when everything is completed.

Next thing we hear is the autopsy leaked and that is after it was sent to the experts. Hmmmmm

The doc is not charged because the DA doesn't have the case yet to make a decision.

I'd say, since we haven't heard a thing from the medical board, the doc is probably practicing medicine in his clinics. The medical board dosen't have to do anything as far as I know.I haven't heard if they have done anything with the two docs in the Anna case.

Maybe they wait for the court cases to be resolved.

JMO of course

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 09:57 PM

I'm not taking sides, Lynda. I clearly stated Murray should be charged with whatever crimes he has committed.

Imo, root causes are always the right place to start. And the root cause of the problem in this case was MJ's desire to have his drugs, coupled with his ability to get whatever he wanted in life, good or bad.

I don't believe we'll ever entirely eliminate "bad guys" from our world. That's why taking personal responsibility for our own decisions and choices is so important. I would much rather navigate my own ship than depend on a succession of people, some of whom will likely be "bad guys," to navigate it for me.

That's what personal responsibility is all about. So we don't end up in situations like MJ's. If MJ had taken responsibility for his substance abuse issues, as I said above, neither you nor I would've ever heard of Conrad Murray. Michael knew darn well having his "milk" shot into his veins nightly was not a productive way to solve his insomnia. He wanted the drugs, and he was accustomed to having whatever he wanted. He did not take responsibility for getting himself free of them. That's the root cause here. imo

I don't think Doctor Murray is a bad guy. His biography is incredible and his training is amazing. I believe he was a thoughtful doctor to his patients who love him.

but....................

Along came a bad guy. A drug addict who could buy anything he wanted and knew Murray needed money. Not only did he have a lot of children to support, which is not against the law, there was a recession going on and people with no insurance to go to a doctor. He offered big bucks to be fed drugs. I believe Murray tried to help him get off drugs which Jackson probably didn't much like, but put up with it to a certain extent.

There is two ways of looking at this and the jury will get Jackson's drug background and how he paid Murray for drugs. Who's the bad guy here?:shrug:

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 10:09 PM

"Say it Again....Sam"....:laugh:..I hear ya...however..MJ is not so different than anybody else with big bucks to get what he wants or needs..What I see as the big problem is that unethicals are out their to jump on any bandwagon where money is concerned..whether its corporate bribes, or Madoff's of the world....there is always someone who gets hurt in the end....unfortunately, too many wish to excuse one party or the other..why take sides in this case? I have to ask?...MJ lost his life..and Murray killed him with his "INEXPERTISE"....I have no doubt he regrets his decision..but too bad...with his morals, I am glad he wont be treating any more patients!!

LMS

How do you know he isn't treating patients right now? There is no reason he couldn't be doing just that. How do you know he will never be treating patients again?

If this would have happened in a hospital, the doctor wouldn't even be investigated. I would think with all the medical experience you say you have, you know this is true. This just happened to be in a home setting. That does not make it criminal in my book.

Doctors can and do make mistakes bigger than this every day. Doctors are not Gods. Mistakes are made.

I think this is malpractice which is a tort and a sanction against his license.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 10:16 PM

Don't forget it took almost two years before charges were brought in the ANS case and her case was less complicated than MJ's is. I would venture to guess they just have not completed the investigation. JMO

Well, they said they have wrapped up the investigation and are waiting for some medical experts to give them their opinions.

Personally, I think if they need medical experts opinions to try to convince the DA to prefer charges, their case can't be any to strong.

imo

LadyFuzz

10-03-2009, 10:21 PM

My "bad guys" reference was in response to Lynda's "unethicals are out their to jump on any bandwagon where money is concerned."

My point is there will always be an element of humanity who can be convinced by whatever means to behave badly. There will always be supply for the demand. If there's no demand, there's no need to worry about who the suppliers might be. Simple. To me, at least.

Both Jackson and Murray had personal responsibility problems they chose not to handle productively. MJ had a drug problem. Murray had financial problems.

MJ shouldn't have been in a position of being dependent on drugs. Murray shouldn't have been in a position of being in such dire financial straits he took on the job of MJ's drug doc. imo

Yes, they are equally to blame for what happened and that's what will hang that jury up. I don't think a conviction will be possible. There will be too much reasonable doubt.

JMO

warhorse46

10-03-2009, 10:40 PM

Well, those with chronic llung inflammation do get SOB on exertion like walking up hill, dancing, even walking fast and the like. Not life threatening condition "Nearly all of the time"? Whats that? Poor sad fraile MJ was in sorry shape, in my opinion and had been living in the fast lane for years. What smoke and mirrors? "Innocent finding"? Folks are riding around in carts with O2 tanks because of their limitation in movement from lung inflammation. MOO

The ME who preformed the autopsy disagrees with your theory. According to him MJ was healthy for a 50 year old man. And your statements re folks riding around in carts with O2 is irrelevant as we all know that was not the case here. And those people riding around in carts with O2 have full blown lung diseases such as COPD, lung cancer, etc. NOT just inflamed lungs. Pulmonary inflamation is not a disease in itself, it is the body's reaction to an irritant.

who_is_it

10-03-2009, 10:53 PM

I think he will be charged criminally. He shouldn't be allowed to get away with murder just because he's a doctor, and the victim is MJ.

imo

Imo it's not murder (which is intentional) but manslaughter (which is accidental).

who_is_it

10-03-2009, 11:00 PM

My "bad guys" reference was in response to Lynda's "unethicals are out their to jump on any bandwagon where money is concerned."

My point is there will always be an element of humanity who can be convinced by whatever means to behave badly.

imo

I agree. If it hadn't been Murray MJ would have found a different doctor who provides the drugs.

who_is_it

10-03-2009, 11:02 PM

How do you know he isn't treating patients right now? There is no reason he couldn't be doing just that. How do you know he will never be treating patients again?

If this would have happened in a hospital, the doctor wouldn't even be investigated. I would think with all the medical experience you say you have, you know this is true. This just happened to be in a home setting. That does not make it criminal in my book.

Doctors can and do make mistakes bigger than this every day. Doctors are not Gods. Mistakes are made.

I think this is malpractice which is a tort and a sanction against his license.

JMO

Murray didn't only provide the drug but he also ADMINISTERED it (Do I have to add "imo"? Actually it's pretty clear). That's a difference to the ANS case, for example.

who_is_it

10-03-2009, 11:17 PM

"Sony Music announced Wednesday that on Oct. 12 it will release a new Michael Jackson single called "This Is It" -- the first previously unreleased recording to be put on sale since the superstar's death."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/09/the-michael-jackson-new-musical-onslaught-begins.html

who_is_it

10-03-2009, 11:18 PM

Because there hasn't been any more deaths of his patients.

:lol: LMAO

warhorse46

10-03-2009, 11:50 PM

Imo it's not murder (which is intentional) but manslaughter (which is accidental).

Have you read the definition of second degree murder in California?

warhorse46

10-03-2009, 11:53 PM

Jackson's body at autopsy showed no signs of long term drug abuse. We have one bad guy and one dead guy.. you guess which one is the bad guy.

What? There were many track marks on his extremities.

daniel green

10-04-2009, 01:24 AM

Do we need someone arrested and taken to trial or can we just skip that part and jump to the jury instructions? Anybody know why the poor Doc is not in Jail or been charged by the Coppers and DA, let alone lose his Medical License?

No kidding, ABC. :scared: I was thinking I must have missed the arrest, grand jury indictment, the trial, closing arguments and were down to the jury instructions already.:w00t:

tv4me

10-04-2009, 02:43 AM

originally posted by LadyFuzz
I don't think Doctor Murray is a bad guy. His biography is incredible and his training is amazing. I believe he was a thoughtful doctor to his patients who love him.

With the exception that he seems to be incompetent. According to the Los Angeles Times, Conrad left Jackson alone for 45 minutes after giving him his fatal doseage to go to the bathroom and make phone calls. Jackson shouldn't have been left alone at all...and then to leave him alone for 45 MINUTES unmonitored?! I think that Murray has been a really lucky doctor in that none of his other patients (that we know of) have died because of his faulty/lack of care.

To me, it's not so much about giving someone dangerous drugs (which is bad enough) but to leave a patient alone unsupervized after giving a patient those drugs. If I were on a jury, that would be it. I don't see Murray walking away from this.

If Murray had done what he was suppose to as a doctor and stayed by his patient, he would have noticed when Jackson started to fail. He could have revived him. I think that MJ was already dead/dying when Murray returned 45 minutes later. Who knows how long he had stopped breathing. By the time Murray returned, his revival efforts were too little, too late.

I see jail time in his future

IMO

who_is_it

10-04-2009, 10:10 AM

Have you read the definition of second degree murder in California?

No, I haven't but we discusssed a while ago the definitions of "homicide", "murder" and "manslaughter" here at the board. -- Could you shortly say what is meant by murder 2nd degree?

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 10:57 AM

With the exception that he seems to be incompetent. According to the Los Angeles Times, Conrad left Jackson alone for 45 minutes after giving him his fatal doseage to go to the bathroom and make phone calls. Jackson shouldn't have been left alone at all...and then to leave him alone for 45 MINUTES unmonitored?! I think that Murray has been a really lucky doctor in that none of his other patients (that we know of) have died because of his faulty/lack of care.

To me, it's not so much about giving someone dangerous drugs (which is bad enough) but to leave a patient alone unsupervized after giving a patient those drugs. If I were on a jury, that would be it. I don't see Murray walking away from this.

If Murray had done what he was suppose to as a doctor and stayed by his patient, he would have noticed when Jackson started to fail. He could have revived him. I think that MJ was already dead/dying when Murray returned 45 minutes later. Who knows how long he had stopped breathing. By the time Murray returned, his revival efforts were too little, too late.

I see jail time in his future

IMO

And according to reports, his cpr attempts were performed wrong. I would think a Cardiologist would know the correct manner to preform something as basic as cpr.

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 11:23 AM

No, I haven't but we discusssed a while ago the definitions of "homicide", "murder" and "manslaughter" here at the board. -- Could you shortly say what is meant by murder 2nd degree?

Look up the California Penal Codes pay special attention to section 187-199. Second degree murder does not need expressed malice, it is implied by the reckless behavior & malignant heart.

<<188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when
there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away
the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable
provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing
show an abandoned and malignant heart.
When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional
doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no
other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of
malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act
within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite
such awareness is included within the definition of malice.
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/187-199.html >>

Unperson1984

10-04-2009, 12:44 PM

Have you read the definition of second degree murder in California?

I think proving malice, even implied malice, is next to impossible in this case. Murray had previously administered these drugs to Jackson without incident, and had oxygen and antidote drugs on hand. That makes reckless disregard a huge burden to overcome.

Better a strong manslaughter case than a weak murder case. IMO

Firehead11

10-04-2009, 01:53 PM

I have been reading and working and I have to say the convesation has been polite.

How do we know that Murray has been giving Jackson these drugs every day? Because he said so? If that is the case, it has been pointed out to me many a time, that we have not read Murrays statement. We have read the application for the search warrant. If Murray has been gving Jackson these drugs for the past 6 weeks prior to his death, would that explain all those puncture marks?

What antidote did he have on hand?

To me it all comes down to the fact that this (cough cough) doctor is not trained to administer these drugs. He also was "busy" doing something else (depending on what articles youbelieve). Whether is was relieving himself or talking on the phone. At first, I stated it should be man- slaughter atthe very least. The more that comes out, I am heading towards 2nd degree murder.

who_is_it

10-04-2009, 04:04 PM

Look up the California Penal Codes pay special attention to section 187-199. Second degree murder does not need expressed malice, it is implied by the reckless behavior & malignant heart.

<<188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when
there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away
the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable
provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing
show an abandoned and malignant heart.
When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional
doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no
other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of
malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act
within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite
such awareness is included within the definition of malice.
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/187-199.html >>

Thank you, I got it now.

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 04:56 PM

Jackson's body at autopsy showed no signs of long term drug abuse. We have one bad guy and one dead guy.. you guess which one is the bad guy.

Oh please. He had numerous track marks all over his body. GMAB

Jackson paid for and begged for what he got. Simple as that. imo

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 04:58 PM

Thank you, I got it now.

Gonna have trouble with the malignant heart part. imo

Firehead11

10-04-2009, 05:04 PM

Oh please. He had numerous track marks all over his body. GMAB

Jackson paid for and begged for what he got. Simple as that. imo

He begged to be murdered? Could these "track marks" be from the doctor (cough cough)?

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 05:24 PM

He begged to be murdered? Could these "track marks" be from the doctor (cough cough)?

OK once again. He paid for and begged for the drugs. He got exactly what he wanted. That has nothing to do with begging to be murdered. Those tracks marks were from years of doing drugs and you know it. Is this another MJ excuse???

IMO

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 06:01 PM

I found this link that desribes what you speak about ..Its called hands- only CPR and it says very explicitely.."Witnessed Cardiac Arrest" and "Immediate" call to 911...

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3060861

Hands-Only™ CPR

When an adult has a sudden cardiac arrest, his or her survival depends greatly on immediately getting CPR from someone nearby. But less than 1/3 of those people get that help. Most bystanders are worried they might do something wrong or make things worse.

That's why AHA has simplified things.

When an adult suddenly collapses, trained or untrained bystanders should:

Call 9-1-1
Push hard and fast in the center of the chest
Studies show these two steps, called Hands-Only CPR, can be as effective as conventional CPR.

This whole premise was set out for lone persons (laypersons) in a public setting..home or outside...this is not protocol for HC Professionals administering IV Sedations and Aneasthetics outside a "Clinical Setting"...course you are welcome to keep making excuses for Dr. Murray.:rolleyes:

What about that pesky 45 minutes..not calling 911..what about those moments MJ was left with no chest compressions while he ran down to the kitchen???

And please...we dont dont do anything different here in Canada...so pleeeze!!!!! enough of that!!

LMS:laugh:

bolding mine on the pesky stuff

Sorry, that never happened. Murray never told the police he found Jackson at 11:00. jmo

Roxxanne

10-04-2009, 06:01 PM

OK once again. He paid for and begged for the drugs. He got exactly what he wanted. That has nothing to do with begging to be murdered. Those tracks marks were from years of doing drugs and you know it. Is this another MJ excuse???

IMO

Oh please! More excuses for Murray???

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 06:03 PM

Oh please! More excuses for Murray???

What are you talking about? The post was about Jackson not Murray.:rolleyes:

Roxxanne

10-04-2009, 06:12 PM

What are you talking about? The post was about Jackson not Murray.:rolleyes:

How is not about Murray?? You are talking about what Michael paid for and begged for. Sounds like it's about him and Murray to me. IMO

daniel green

10-04-2009, 07:03 PM

Interesting you should write that cause with a 15 to 2 compression to breath rate, clearly its more important to keep the blood circulating then give O2. In fact, googing CPR - compressions, the Mayo Clinic recommends that if you can only do one thing, do the compressions. The technique has never depended on doing the compression absolutly correctly but just pumping on the chest will keep the blood flowing if the client is not dead.

Thank you so much, ABC!

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 07:29 PM

OKay???I know TMZ is just a "Tabliod" but they have been proven correct on many things of late..but here it states the timeline of events...

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/

Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.

So..IF any of this is true....what about Murray apparantly stateing he found MJ at 1050AM..not breathing?..No never mind..I know..I know its only a tabloid media spin of things????

LMS

How many times are we all going to go over this. Murray's lawyer said much of the search warrant was correct but the time line was totally wrong.

Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.

Murray did not tell police he found Jackson at 11:00 am. The end result is we have no idea what happened and what the time line actually is. WE HAVE NOT SEEN MURRAY'S STATEMENTS.

jmo

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 07:45 PM

Maybe they do it different in Canada but in America if the renowned Mayo Clinic say if you can do nothing else, do compressions. We listen.

That's right. Murray is a cardiologist and I'm sure he knows more about chest compressions than message board posters who weren't even there.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 07:56 PM

And..of course you are correct in that we dont have privy to document dumps ( like Flordia)..but we have leaks (TMZ) and we have self-serving statements by "THE" defense Attny..right now..given what has come out in documents..Coroner "Homicide"..Toxic Levels of "Propofol" in conjunction with other drugs...means one thing..MJ died of a "Drug Overdose" administered by Dr. Murray (admitted to injecting)..and IF someone believes MJ injected himself..that really isnt likely given the combos found in his system ( combo cocktail )..Course I can only speak to that because of personal experience (professionally)..no never mind..:wink:

Just maintain your support for Dr Murray..Doesnt matter really...it all comes down to what the "Courts" end up doing...Doesnt it?

There is one constant here...this board, comments and opinions are all based on rumor, life experiences and abilities to apply all the information..Googling is great...but nothing trumps reality and experience..Course, I only have 40 years professional Medical frontline HC experience..but according to some..because I live in Canada..We do things differently...that question really boggled my mind..first time I ever thought us Canadians lived and breathed differently???

LMS:rolleyes:

bolding mine

You are guessing regarding this case just like us mortals who don't have all that experience you are always telling us you have.

Of course the defense attorney is lying right? I guess we will see. Posters keep harping on what was said in that search warrant like it's written in stone and it isn't. It is posted about over and over again.

The FACT is we have NOT seen Murray's statements. The time line is unknown.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 08:06 PM

Murray's lawyer was present every time Murray gave statements to police.

The lawyer has the transcripts of what Murray said to the police.

Yet it is thought here the lawyer is lying about the time line and what Murray said to the police.

I THINK NOT.

jmo

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 08:14 PM

My goodness Lady..I do hope you dont believe how Dr. Murray was giving Chest Compressions was even close to any CPR teachings?... My goodness...I have to believe if you indeed were a LE Officer you had proper teaching..I feel compelled to give you this link..if you even believe Dr. Muray's technique was even close to appropriate...It wasnt and one handed compressionals are only for toddlers..not adults..MJ was weighed at 135 lbs at autopsy..not 40 pounds..yikes!!

Anyway..

http://www.firstaidweb.com/adult4.html

CPR Review:

http://www.firstaidweb.com/cpr_review.html

In closing Lady..no, I wasnt there at MJ's side (nor were you or others here)..but I have been at the side of thousands of resuscitations..some successful..but most not..have been personally taken part in resuscitations of many who were obviously deceased..but we tried..and have shed many tears of frustration post attempts...I do indeed have much more first hand experience in this matter than most..so yes I can attest to the reality of this "End of Life Scenerio"..Far more often than I would have liked!!

LMS:glare:

None of us know how Murray was giving chest compressions or if he was also doing rescue breathing during the time before medics arrived.
None of us were there. All we have heard are snatches of what was going on there.

I was indeed a police officer for 30 years and I learned from that experience until I see official statements with my eyes I don't know what happened.

I certainly don't take a few snatches of something and blow it up into all kinds of scenerios, that's for sure.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 09:47 PM

Hummm..well here is one discription of his technique as given by his own lawyer...

Some statements described Murray using a non-standard CPR technique on Jackson. During the tape of the emergency call, released on June 26, the doctor was described as administering CPR on a bed, not on a hard surface such as a floor, which would be standard practice.[14][15] The doctor's attorney said that Murray placed one hand underneath Jackson and used the other hand for chest compression, where the standard practice is to use both hands for compression

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Michael_Jackson

A Los Angeles Fire Department (LAFD) spokesperson said the 911 call came in at 12:21:04 p.m. (19:21:04 UTC). Paramedics reached Jackson at 12:26 p.m. and found that he was not breathing.[17][18]

Jackson arrived at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center at 1:14 p.m. local.Paramedics performed CPR for 42 minutes at the house.[19] Murray said he was in contact with doctors at UCLA, who instructed the rescuers to inject epinephrine (adrenaline) directly into Jackson's heart. Murray stated that Jackson continued to have a pulse when he was taken out of the house and put in the ambulance for the trip to the hospital.[11] An LAFD official gave a different account. He said that paramedics found Jackson in "full cardiac arrest", and that they did not observe a change in Jackson's status en route to the hospital.[20]

LAFD transported Jackson to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center, a couple miles from the house.[17] The ambulance arrived at the hospital at approximately 1:14 p.m. A team of medical personnel attempted to resuscitate Jackson for more than one hour. They were unsuccessful and he was pronounced dead at 2:26 p.m. (21:26 UTC).[21][22][23]

Above underlined also describes conflicting info coming from Murray's camp and LAFD officials...so again..who knows from what?

LMS

What does all of this prove? Murray is a doctor with much more training than you. I don't second guess what he did because I don't have training as a doctor.

Why wouldn't Murray want to save Jackson? Doctors can't deviate from CPR? I've seen EMTs deviate from CPR. Whatever works is what is done when time is of the essence. That would be even more true with a doctor.

You saw his biography with the extensive training he has, didn't you?

One thing for sure is he is not incompetent. Not with that training.

BTW there were no confrlicting statements that I saw and this was verified by the fire captain who was on the scene. Jackson had a pulse because CPR was being given. I would think you would understand that.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-04-2009, 10:45 PM

So what you are saying is that if someone doesn't have a pulse that CPR wouldn't be given. CPR is given to restore the pulse and respiration. I would think you would understand that. :rolleyes:

No, not what I said.

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 11:04 PM

I think proving malice, even implied malice, is next to impossible in this case. Murray had previously administered these drugs to Jackson without incident, and had oxygen and antidote drugs on hand. That makes reckless disregard a huge burden to overcome.

Better a strong manslaughter case than a weak murder case. IMO

Leaving the patient while he was still under the influence of the drug.
Staying away from the patient for over 40 minutes.
Performing cpr in an incorrect manner.
Not calling 911 in a timely manner.
Not telling the ER staff the exact drugs & amounts he gave MJ.

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 11:10 PM

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 11:16 PM

That's right. Murray is a cardiologist and I'm sure he knows more about chest compressions than message board posters who weren't even there.

JMO

Apparently not since he did not move MJ to the floor to do compressions. Doing compressions with the patient on a soft surface such as a bed is useless. And doing compressions using only one hand @ that! The only time one hand is used for chest compressions is with an infant or a child, MJ was neither.

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 11:19 PM

bolding mine

You are guessing regarding this case just like us mortals who don't have all that experience you are always telling us you have.

Of course the defense attorney is lying right? I guess we will see. Posters keep harping on what was said in that search warrant like it's written in stone and it isn't. It is posted about over and over again.

The FACT is we have NOT seen Murray's statements. The time line is unknown.

JMO

No we have not seen Dr. Murray's statement yet, we are using the information we do have @ this point to form our opinions. If/when new information becomes available then our opinions may change, or not.

warhorse46

10-04-2009, 11:22 PM

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:23 AM

I disagree and personally believe chest compressions are usefull no matter how administered and as we know by trained or untrained folks. Many people have firm, extra firm and extra extra firm mattress and not all are sold. Are the stats better for a hard surface? Maybe. I don't know. Any one got links on that data? Thanks Eagleeye for the links to the current quidelines revised in 2005.

I agree. I've seen them done in different ways depending on the circumstances. I've seen a doctor straddle a patient on a bed to give compressions. I've seen compressions done in a pool with the patient pushed up against the side because they couldn't get him out. His hand was stuck in a drain. Not every situation is by the book in real life. Just on message boards evidently.

jmo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:26 AM

Apparently not since he did not move MJ to the floor to do compressions. Doing compressions with the patient on a soft surface such as a bed is useless. And doing compressions using only one hand @ that! The only time one hand is used for chest compressions is with an infant or a child, MJ was neither.

How do you know he didn't get him moved to the floor? I can't believe this is such a big issue here. A doctor did compressions. End of story.

imo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:28 AM

"Jackson had a pulse because CPR was being given"

How does one interpret this any other way that if someone has a pulse CPR was being given. As I said, this says that if no pulse is detected no CPR would be given according to your comment. Can't have it both ways.

You still don't know what I meant?:laugh: Think about it. You'll get it sooner or later.

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:31 AM

IIRC Murray's lawyer was not present when the police briefly spoke to him @ the hospital.

Very briefly if you remember correctly. I bet Murray said next to nothing before he left. What do you think? I bet he said he wasn't talking to them without a lawyer. Can't get any more brief than that. jmo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:36 AM

No we have not seen Dr. Murray's statement yet, we are using the information we do have @ this point to form our opinions. If/when new information becomes available then our opinions may change, or not.

Yes, to form pure speculation. imo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:37 AM

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 12:58 AM

I disagree and personally believe chest compressions are usefull no matter how administered and as we know by trained or untrained folks. Many people have firm, extra firm and extra extra firm mattress and not all are sold. Are the stats better for a hard surface? Maybe. I don't know. Any one got links on that data? Thanks Eagleeye for the links to the current quidelines revised in 2005.

All of the links specifically say the compressions alone are ONLY for untrained bystanders who happen to observe a cardiac arrest & can start the compressions within seconds of the event. They are not recommended for trained medical personel, of which Dr. Murry is.
Simple physics tells one that chest compressions are 10 times more effective when the patient is on a hard surface. When you compress down on the chest of a patient lying on a soft (even a firm mattresses are softer than floors or back boards) surface the force of the compression is just going to push the entire body into the soft surface instead of push the sternum against the heart to squeeze it.

Unperson1984

10-05-2009, 01:03 AM

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 01:05 AM

I agree. I've seen them done in different ways depending on the circumstances. I've seen a doctor straddle a patient on a bed to give compressions. I've seen compressions done in a pool with the patient pushed up against the side because they couldn't get him out. His hand was stuck in a drain. Not every situation is by the book in real life. Just on message boards evidently.

jmo

Yep & I bet that doctor straddling the patient was using both hands to do compressions too. I myself have had to straddle a patient to do compressions, it is done quite commonly when a patient must be transfered from one place to another on a gurney or stretcher & cpr is in progress. The person doing compressions straddles the patient & rides along. I have seen EMTs coming through the ER doors straddling a patient on a gurney doing compressions. The pool scenario you gave, the patient was up against a hard surface, same principle.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 01:08 AM

How do you know he didn't get him moved to the floor? I can't believe this is such a big issue here. A doctor did compressions. End of story.

imo

According to the info we have @ this point, the EMTs stated MJ was lying in bed when they arrived.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 01:09 AM

Very briefly if you remember correctly. I bet Murray said next to nothing before he left. What do you think? I bet he said he wasn't talking to them without a lawyer. Can't get any more brief than that. jmo

I think he said a lot more than no comment because later the police were looking hard to find him to question him further. That is when he had skipped out & stayed hidden for 3 days.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 01:13 AM

Yes, to form pure speculation. imo

Our opinions may turn out to be speculation, they may not, time will tell on that. But we have the freedom to form & speak our opinions any time during this case we choose. We even have the freedom to change our opinion as new information becomes available.

lilismom

10-05-2009, 10:46 AM

Leaving the patient while he was still under the influence of the drug.
Staying away from the patient for over 40 minutes.
Performing cpr in an incorrect manner.
Not calling 911 in a timely manner.
Not telling the ER staff the exact drugs & amounts he gave MJ.

My dad is currently in the hospital. Imagine my surprise when I got there and he was on a PROPOFOL drip. I was FLOORED. I couldn't help but ask the doc "so, he's on the Michael Jackson meds" he said "yes but this is the only way this should be used, in a hospital, there is NO reason to ever use this outside of a hospital, EVER".

RIP MJ.

IMO,
Lilismom

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 11:09 AM

My dad is currently in the hospital. Imagine my surprise when I got there and he was on a PROPOFOL drip. I was FLOORED. I couldn't help but ask the doc "so, he's on the Michael Jackson meds" he said "yes but this is the only way this should be used, in a hospital, there is NO reason to ever use this outside of a hospital, EVER".

RIP MJ.

IMO,
Lilismom

I agree with your dad's doctor & I bet after this there will be some new laws put in place re this medication.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 11:10 AM

The 911 caller also said MJ was in the bed which is what made some believe that CPR had been done incorrectly when the dispatcher told him to move him to the floor. The 911 caller also said he was "not breathing" nor responding to CPR. :shrug:

Re: speculation -- isn't that what almost every poster on this board is doing based on the information as we know it thus far? As you say; opinions are not etched in stone and may change as more info becomes available. JMO

You are right, I forgot about the 911 caller saying that. Thanks for the reminder.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 11:22 AM

There are more laws concerning over the counter medicines!

Wabash Valley woman didn’t realize second cold medicine purchase violated drug laws

CLINTON — When Sally Harpold bought cold medicine for her family back in March, she never dreamed that four months later she would end up in handcuffs.

Now, Harpold is trying to clear her name of criminal charges, and she is speaking out in hopes that a law will change so others won’t endure the same embarrassment she still is facing.

“This is a very traumatic experience,” Harpold said.

Harpold is a grandmother of triplets who bought one box of Zyrtec-D cold medicine for her husband at a Rockville pharmacy. Less than seven days later, she bought a box of Mucinex-D cold medicine for her adult daughter at a Clinton pharmacy, thereby purchasing 3.6 grams total of pseudoephedrine in a week’s time.

Those two purchases put her in violation of Indiana law 35-48-4-14.7, which restricts the sale of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, or PSE, products to no more than 3.0 grams within any seven-day period.

When the police came knocking at the door of Harpold’s Parke County residence on July 30, she was arrested on a Vermillion County warrant for a class-C misdemeanor, which carries a sentence of up to 60 days in jail and up to a $500 fine. --> more at link

http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_...246225916.html

The article states that signs are placed in the pharmacies, warning that the cold medicine sales are monitored. Sally said there were not any signs in the stores at which she purchased the OTC medications.

The article also states that Sally's record could be cleared by mid-September. In her interview yesterday, she mentioned she has an arrest record (IOW it hasn't been cleared yet); and that if she is ever asked on an application if she's ever been arrested, she has to answer 'yes'. She also said she would like to get this law changed so that this doesn't happen to other innocent and unsuspecting citizens

That law is specific for cold medications which are used in the manufacture of meth.

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:30 AM

You are right, I forgot about the 911 caller saying that. Thanks for the reminder.

Did you also forget the dispatcher did not continue instructions when he found out there was a doctor on the scene?

imo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:36 AM

I think he said a lot more than no comment because later the police were looking hard to find him to question him further. That is when he had skipped out & stayed hidden for 3 days.

Not true at all or you can't be sure of that. The police had no time to speak with Murray and of course they were looking for him to get a statement. He was the doctor on the scene. How you tie that in with Murray saying a lot more to the police in the emergency room, I don't know. How do you know he stayed hidden for three days from everyone.

He stayed hidden from the media and I would too.

He rode in the ambulance to the hospital. That is nothing like staying hidden.

This is nothing more than a medical mistake and it is not criminal.

JMO

Poochie Pie

10-05-2009, 11:38 AM

Did you also forget the dispatcher did not continue instructions when he found out there was a doctor on the scene?

imo Looks like now he should have CONTINUED instructions, huh..?? imo

Poochie

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:39 AM

That law is specific for cold medications which are used in the manufacture of meth.

I take no medicine over the counter unless my doctor approves it based on the medication I take every day.

You are suppose to sign a log at the pharmacy for certain over the counter drugs so the DEA can keep track of what is being sold and to whom it is being sold. JMO

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:41 AM

Looks like now he should have CONTINUED instructions, huh..?? imo

Poochie

No, not at all. The doctor was doing everything correctly. I'm not a doctor and can't second guess what happened on the scene. jmo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:43 AM

I agree with your dad's doctor & I bet after this there will be some new laws put in place re this medication.

I do too, but they won't be retroactive and won't apply to Murray. jmo

Poochie Pie

10-05-2009, 11:48 AM

No, not at all. The doctor was doing everything correctly. I'm not a doctor and can't second guess what happened on the scene. jmo You just DID "second guess" it LadyFuzz...:confused: I'm not a Doctor either, but I'm not going to say that the Dr. was doing everything correctly... Because, i don't know if he was.. I understand what you are saying.. But, there is the chance that he WASN'T doing everything correctly.. No..??

Poochie

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:53 AM

I agree with your first and last points, the others we can't be sure of at this point.

I don't agree with the first and last points either.

The defense disputes Murray having left the patient at all so we don't know. Everyone is going on what the search warrant said which may be theory by police in regard to the time line.

The last point is moot. The ER doctors would have acted the same way to resuscitate Jackson whether they knew Diprivan was in his system or not. Furthermore, I believe Murray informed the EMTs what was in his system and they passed it along to the ER docs. We just don't know.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 12:01 PM

You just DID "second guess" it LadyFuzz...:confused: I'm not a Doctor either, but I'm not going to say that the Dr. was doing everything correctly... Because, i don't know if he was.. I understand what you are saying.. But, there is the chance that he WASN'T doing everything correctly.. No..??

Poochie

In the short time Murray worked on Jackson before the EMTs arrived it was certainly good enough to keep Jackson going. The EMTs worked on him and the ER worked on him for over an hour. What has all this to do with why Jackson died anyway?

Do you think this will be in the autopsy report as a contributing factor?

How did I second guess the doctor? TOD is 2:26 pm at the hospital. It won't change.

jmo

Firehead11

10-05-2009, 12:48 PM

I take no medicine over the counter unless my doctor approves it based on the medication I take every day.

You are suppose to sign a log at the pharmacy for certain over the counter drugs so the DEA can keep track of what is being sold and to whom it is being sold. JMO

At my drug store you sign a log for EVERY prescrition you pick up not just certain ones.

MK~ULTRA

10-05-2009, 12:49 PM

The never ending excuses for Murray. Will it never end?
:glare:

I'm curious as to when the excuses for a prescription drug addict will end.

The fact remains... if Michael Jackson was not a prescription drug addict he would be alive today.

imo... of course.

Firehead11

10-05-2009, 12:49 PM

Same old mantra, no matter what is posted.

MK~ULTRA

10-05-2009, 12:59 PM

Its the Sudafed that helps produce Meth, not the other ingredients in the cold RX.

Pseudoephedrine or ephedrine is used to manufacture meth. Both of which used to be the active ingredients in Sudafed.

daniel green

10-05-2009, 01:32 PM

Lynda, with all due respect to your professional experience, there are many people here with other types of professional experience which also lends itself to the discussion. We have retired LE posting here. We have posters with legal background. We have posters very familiar with how the laws, etc. of California differ from other states. We also have other people here with extensive medical experience.

I don't know why you feel that you, because of your background, are in a better position to weigh in on the subject of MJ's death than anyone else who contributes to this thread. Everyone here has something to offer.

Ditto every word.

daniel green

10-05-2009, 01:36 PM

daniel green

10-05-2009, 01:41 PM

Not true at all or you can't be sure of that. The police had no time to speak with Murray and of course they were looking for him to get a statement. He was the doctor on the scene. How you tie that in with Murray saying a lot more to the police in the emergency room, I don't know. How do you know he stayed hidden for three days from everyone.

He stayed hidden from the media and I would too.

He rode in the ambulance to the hospital. That is nothing like staying hidden.

This is nothing more than a medical mistake and it is not criminal.

JMO

Dr M remained at the hospital to tell MJ'children that he had died, and to tell the family, as well.

daniel green

10-05-2009, 01:44 PM

In the short time Murray worked on Jackson before the EMTs arrived it was certainly good enough to keep Jackson going. The EMTs worked on him and the ER worked on him for over an hour. What has all this to do with why Jackson died anyway?

Do you think this will be in the autopsy report as a contributing factor?

How did I second guess the doctor? TOD is 2:26 pm at the hospital. It won't change.

jmo

It certainly is not a contributing factor, whether cpr was done on the bed or the floor. That's for sure.

The fact is that all means of recussitation were tried on MJ, including intubation and that balloon to try to re-start the heart. Neither of those things, nor any of the others, will be contributing factors, either, should this ever be a criminal case.

Firehead11

10-05-2009, 02:21 PM

OTCs, Over the Counter drugs are not Prescription drugs. Its the Prescription drugs we sign for in the log.

Yes, that is what I said. Every prescription drug we have to sign for. :confused: And I believe we are just carded for certain OTC cold meds.

Firehead11

10-05-2009, 02:25 PM

Good afternoon, WH!

There is really no indication that the doc stayed away from MJ for 40 mins.

Now come on, the phone records, WHICH WE HAVE NOT SEEN, show cell phone calls for 40+ minutes. Are you saying that this (:rolleyes:) doctor actually paid attention to his (dead) patient during all this time he was taking on the phone? Performing CPR, compressions and such?

daniel green

10-05-2009, 02:28 PM

Now come on, the phone records, WHICH WE HAVE NOT SEEN, show cell phone calls for 40+ minutes. Are you saying that this (:rolleyes:) doctor actually paid attention to his (dead) patient during all this time he was taking on the phone? Performing CPR, compressions and such?

I think he could have been speaking on the phone before MJ stopped breathing. In the same room.

Firehead11

10-05-2009, 02:28 PM

Dr M remained at the hospital to tell MJ'children that he had died, and to tell the family, as well.

IMO, I believe Prince Michael knew his father was dead before he was placed in the ambulance.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:37 PM

Did you also forget the dispatcher did not continue instructions when he found out there was a doctor on the scene?

imo

Appropriate behavior for the dispatcher. It is logical that an MD would know proper cpr methods.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:39 PM

Not true at all or you can't be sure of that. The police had no time to speak with Murray and of course they were looking for him to get a statement. He was the doctor on the scene. How you tie that in with Murray saying a lot more to the police in the emergency room, I don't know. How do you know he stayed hidden for three days from everyone.

He stayed hidden from the media and I would too.

He rode in the ambulance to the hospital. That is nothing like staying hidden.

This is nothing more than a medical mistake and it is not criminal.

JMO

He stayed hidden from the police for 3 days, they were looking for him according to all of the reports of the time.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:41 PM

I take no medicine over the counter unless my doctor approves it based on the medication I take every day.

You are suppose to sign a log at the pharmacy for certain over the counter drugs so the DEA can keep track of what is being sold and to whom it is being sold. JMO

At my pharmacy you must sign a log book for any prescription medication or certain cold remedy type medications.

Unperson1984

10-05-2009, 02:41 PM

I have a "what if" question...What if Murray found MJ not breathing at 12PM rather than 11AM?

It would certainly make the time line more believable and fit the time he called for help from Prince and security. It would also explain why the doctors at the ER didn’t detect obvious signs of death and continued to try resuscitation.

I think we all must admit that Murray didn't want MJ to die and he didn't take time to clean up the room because the propofol vials and IV pole were still there when LE searched. So why would he delay calling for help for an hour?

:shrug:

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:42 PM

No, not at all. The doctor was doing everything correctly. I'm not a doctor and can't second guess what happened on the scene. jmo

Dr. Murray was not performing adult cpr correctly according to the accepted standards of cpr administration.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:43 PM

I do too, but they won't be retroactive and won't apply to Murray. jmo

Did I state the new laws would be retroactive? Please show me in my post where I stated that.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:46 PM

Its the Sudafed otherwise know as pseudoephrine that helps produce Meth, not the other ingredients in the cold RX.

Yes I knew that. Your point is?

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 02:52 PM

Untrained bystands only? I think not. We do the best we can. As a 5-4 inch, 130 lb weak gal, trying to pull an adult person off a bed to the floor would surely result in physical injuries, including head assualt, complicating the person's original problem and maybe the cause of death its self.

Read the links, they all specifically state the compression only is aimed only to untrained bystanders who witness a cardiac arrest because it seems to confuse them when the dispatcher is trying to give them rescue breathing instructions. It is very easy for a person of your size to move an adult off a bed onto the floor because your priority @ this point is to effectively circulate oxigenated blood through the body. You don't worry about other injuries. Nearly all resuscitation patients suffer broken ribs & sternum. Any injuries can be treated later if the patient can be kept alive.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 03:04 PM

I believe he was already dead anyway so no matter where the CPR was attempted -- it wouldn't work.

I need to ask this question. Given the time that Dr Murray allegedly tried to administer CPR, the paramedics and then the ER doctors; wouldn't MJ have been brain-dead anyway without oxygen. The 911 caller said he was not even breathing on the call or responding to CPR? During respiratory failure - don't carbon dioxide levels go up?

CO2 converts to carbonic acid in the body. Respiratory failure would result in a rise in the carbonic acid level in the body. Read here.

http://www.nurseslearning.com/courses/nrp/labtest/course/section8/c1.htm

Poochie Pie

10-05-2009, 05:57 PM

In the short time Murray worked on Jackson before the EMTs arrived it was certainly good enough to keep Jackson going. The EMTs worked on him and the ER worked on him for over an hour. What has all this to do with why Jackson died anyway?

Do you think this will be in the autopsy report as a contributing factor?

How did I second guess the doctor? TOD is 2:26 pm at the hospital. It won't change.

jmo Sorry LadyFuzz.. Had to run out for a bit... To answer your question "How did I second guess the doctor"? In post 538, you said "The doctor was doing everything correctly"... "I'm not a doctor and can't SECOND GUESS what happened on the scene"... Unless we were there, we do not KNOW that the doctor was doing everything correctly... that... is second guessing.. imo

Poochie

Firehead11

10-05-2009, 05:57 PM

Thanks for removing the original post.

Shells2

10-05-2009, 08:00 PM

He stayed hidden from the police for 3 days, they were looking for him according to all of the reports of the time.

""We do not consider him to be uncooperative at this time," said police Deputy Chief Charlie Beck, noting that detectives spoke with the doctor after Jackson's death. "We think that he will assist us in coming to the truth of the facts in this case."

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/conray-murray-jacksons-do_n_221649.html

tv4me

10-05-2009, 08:18 PM

Posted by Daniel Green
There is really no indication that the doc stayed away from MJ for 40 mins.

According to the Los Angeles Times, the police reports state that Dr. Murray admitted to being away for a few (which turned out to be 45) minutes. He said he stepped away after giving MJ his dosage to use the bathroom and make a few phone calls. When Murray returned to Jackson's bedside, he discovered the MJ had stopped breathing.

This is from the latest LA Times article. If you want me to try to find the link, I will. I'm at work on a break, so it's going to be a while for me to get back to this board.

who_is_it

10-05-2009, 08:56 PM

According to the Los Angeles Times, the police reports state that Dr. Murray admitted to being away for a few (which turned out to be 45) minutes. He said he stepped away after giving MJ his dosage to use the bathroom and make a few phone calls. When Murray returned to Jackson's bedside, he discovered the MJ had stopped breathing.

This is from the latest LA Times article. If you want me to try to find the link, I will. I'm at work on a break, so it's going to be a while for me to get back to this board.

We don't know what is true. Could be that MJ has already been dead during the mentioned 45 minutes (... and he made these phone calls to the women in Houston etc.). Imo he was dead since a longer time as he didn't show up for breakfast like he usually did. I would believe he was dead already at the usual breakfast time -- hours before 911 was called.

daniel green

10-05-2009, 09:26 PM

""We do not consider him to be uncooperative at this time," said police Deputy Chief Charlie Beck, noting that detectives spoke with the doctor after Jackson's death. "We think that he will assist us in coming to the truth of the facts in this case."

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/conray-murray-jacksons-do_n_221649.html

Thx for that. I did not think that he had been MIA for three days while police looked for him.

daniel green

10-05-2009, 09:27 PM

Has anyone seen the new doc on the TVGN about MJ's relationships with his family? I taped it last night but have not seen it yet.

GentleBreeze

10-05-2009, 10:02 PM

Judge: Jackson children adjusting well to life with grandmother

Oct. 2, 2009, 6:45 PM EST
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Michael Jackson's three children seem to be adjusting well to being raised by their grandmother, a judge said Friday.

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff said he was "very pleased" with the contents of a probate investigator's report detailing how the children are adjusting roughly three months after their father's death.

"It looks like the children are really doing wonderfully with their grandmother guardian," Beckloff said in brief comments on the report during a hearing Friday.

Prince Michael, 12, Paris, 11, and Prince II, 7, have been in Katherine Jackson's care since their father died in late June. Beckloff appointed Katherine Jackson as the children's permanent guardian in August and asked for an update on their conditions.

In his 2002 will, Michael Jackson designated his mother as his choice to care for his children if he died.

Beckloff sealed the report on the children and said he sees no need to get future updates.

Jackson's estate is paying a $60,000 per month stipend to care for and protect the youngsters.

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=434761&GT1=28102&

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 10:22 PM

Sorry LadyFuzz.. Had to run out for a bit... To answer your question "How did I second guess the doctor"? In post 538, you said "The doctor was doing everything correctly"... "I'm not a doctor and can't SECOND GUESS what happened on the scene"... Unless we were there, we do not KNOW that the doctor was doing everything correctly... that... is second guessing.. imo

Poochie

I didn't know saying something good about Murray counted.:wink:

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 10:23 PM

Did I state the new laws would be retroactive? Please show me in my post where I stated that.

Where in my post did I say you stated that? I was just letting you know.

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 10:27 PM

According to the Los Angeles Times, the police reports state that Dr. Murray admitted to being away for a few (which turned out to be 45) minutes. He said he stepped away after giving MJ his dosage to use the bathroom and make a few phone calls. When Murray returned to Jackson's bedside, he discovered the MJ had stopped breathing.

This is from the latest LA Times article. If you want me to try to find the link, I will. I'm at work on a break, so it's going to be a while for me to get back to this board.

Murray did not admit to what you are saying. Let's not forget there are two sides to every story. Take a look at his lawyer's response. It has been posted before.

jmo

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 10:37 PM

Warhorse, giving someone a skull fracture from dropping them on the floor from a height of 3 to 5 feet can't be helping the client. While its true, an adult could be pushed off a bed to the floor, certainly not with any promise of safety. Oops, if the client is getting broken ribs or stenum (OMG), someone is doing something wrong with the compressions, in my opinion.

Nope, the majority of resuscitation patients end up with rib & sternum fractures if it is done right. You must get enough pressure on the heart to squeeze it & that is a lot of pressure, that is why you must lock your elbows, get your upper body over the patient & use your body to do compressions not just your arms. IIRC the reports of MJ's autopsy showed he had broken ribs. It is highly unlikely an adult would sustain a skull fracture from being dragged off a bed to the floor.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 10:43 PM

Uh no, its not to be expected at all. Cracking a rib or even worse, the sternum can result in the heart and/or lungs being pierced by those broken bone ends and a fractured sternum is a serious life threatening emergency. :thumbdown: The hand position is at the nipple line and ribs should not even be involved. I have NEVER heard a CPR instructor say "Expect to break the sternum and/or ribs". Thanks Shells2 for the accurate LE quote on the Doc.

A fractured sternum is not a life threatening emergency. Neither are fractured ribs unless there are secondary complications such as punctured lungs & they are not treated except with comfort measures. They heal on their on. Note the date of that statement was after the three days they spent looking for Dr. Murray & he had obtained his lawyer.

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 10:47 PM

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 11:00 PM

It's too bad we don't have a links thread on this case so we could easily access information like Shells2 provided above. There's a lot of tabloid stuff floating around out there, but we could at least discuss *where* people are getting their sources of information, and acknowledge a quote by the Deputy Chief trumps "unnamed sources."

My impression is Murray has made himself available to authorities, and I've not read anything to indicate he hasn't cooperated with the investigation. I'd like to see a link, with a named source, saying he disappeared for 3 days. Whether he's telling the truth across the board is not something we can decide here, imo, but I don't think it helps the discussion to keep repeating things like the unsourced, unlinked allegation Murray "disappeared for 3 days" immediately following MJ's death.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090626/michael-jackson-doctor-flees-lapd-on-trail-songs-dead.htm

It was 2 days the police were looking for him, not 3 as I first stated.
http://www.rightcelebrity.com/?p=6197

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-missing-doctor-set-to-speak-to-police-115875-21474541/

http://entertainment.stv.tv/showbiz/105588-michael-jackson-doctor-issues-denial/

warhorse46

10-05-2009, 11:01 PM

Where in my post did I say you stated that? I was just letting you know.

Thank you for letting me know something I already knew.

daniel green

10-05-2009, 11:43 PM

It's too bad we don't have a links thread on this case so we could easily access information like Shells2 provided above. There's a lot of tabloid stuff floating around out there, but we could at least discuss *where* people are getting their sources of information, and acknowledge a quote by the Deputy Chief trumps "unnamed sources."

My impression is Murray has made himself available to authorities, and I've not read anything to indicate he hasn't cooperated with the investigation. I'd like to see a link, with a named source, saying he disappeared for 3 days. Whether he's telling the truth across the board is not something we can decide here, imo, but I don't think it helps the discussion to keep repeating things like the unsourced, unlinked allegation Murray "disappeared for 3 days" immediately following MJ's death.

He was never MIA for the police. As the excellent link upthread says.

Despite what Mirror or any silly tabloid says, the fact remains that from the official statements, Murray made himself available to police.

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:56 PM

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090626/michael-jackson-doctor-flees-lapd-on-trail-songs-dead.htm

It was 2 days the police were looking for him, not 3 as I first stated.
http://www.rightcelebrity.com/?p=6197

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-missing-doctor-set-to-speak-to-police-115875-21474541/

http://entertainment.stv.tv/showbiz/105588-michael-jackson-doctor-issues-denial/

In reading the links it is unknown who the source is. They are all taking information from each other.

What difference does all of this make? I mean it's not like he took off and left the country. He was not under arrest and there was no arrest warrant.

This is completely a non issue. Just something more to bash the doctor with and it really makes no difference.

snipped

Police also made it clear Dr. Murray was questioned as a witness and is not a suspect.

imo

LadyFuzz

10-05-2009, 11:58 PM

He was never MIA for the police. As the excellent link upthread says.

Despite what Mirror or any silly tabloid says, the fact remains that from the official statements, Murray made himself available to police.

He was MIA to the media and they don't like that.:biggrin: imo

warhorse46

10-06-2009, 12:32 AM

Well, it is life threatening when folks are doing compressions on someone's chest and pushing the fractured bone pieces of sternum and/or ribs up and down into the heart and lungs. This debate is about cracking ribs and sternum while giving CPR.

What if I crack a rib when I do CPR?
Frequently ribs are broken with the pressure CPR places on the sternum. Some studies quote up to 30% of cardiac arrest victims have broken ribs as a result of CPR. This happens more frequently the older the victim since the cartilage is less compliant and the bones more easily crackable. But remember, it's better to have a cracked rib then be dead.

http://www.mvfra.org/TIPSCPR2.htm

Also, they noted that chest compressions strong enough to break ribs are sometimes required, and rescuers can tire quickly.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-01-18-cpr_x.htm

From the American Heart Association.
Q. Can you break people’s ribs doing CPR?
A. Yes. A 2004 review of scientific literature showed that conventional CPR can cause fractures of ribs and/or the breastbone (sternum) in at least 1/3 of cases. In a related study of people who had received such injuries from CPR, the fractures did not cause any serious internal bleeding and, thus, mortality. On the other hand, the chance of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest is near zero for a victim who does not immediately receive high quality chest compressions with minimal interruptions, followed by additional therapy within minutes (a defibrillating shock and/or more advanced care from EMS personnel).
http://handsonlycpr.eisenberginc.com/faqs.html

Firehead11

10-06-2009, 04:28 AM

Murray did not admit to what you are saying. Let's not forget there are two sides to every story. Take a look at his lawyer's response. It has been posted before.

jmo

We are to take a defense lawyers word for the truth? I wonder how many people believe the words out of Johnny Cochran's mouth when he told the world that his client was not guilty of two murders.

I will again remind people, we have no read or heard Murray's statement. I tend to believe what LE stated in their application for the search warrants.

There is always three sides to every story not two. Each person has their own version of the truth and somewhere in the middle is the truth,

I cannot understand why LE would lie and state something that very well could be proved with records. Like when he states that Murray was on his cell phone, with three different calls for over 40 minutes. Even if Murray was in the same room when speaking on his phone, he did not pay attention to his patient.

LadyFuzz

10-06-2009, 09:34 AM

We are to take a defense lawyers word for the truth? I wonder how many people believe the words out of Johnny Cochran's mouth when he told the world that his client was not guilty of two murders.

I will again remind people, we have no read or heard Murray's statement. I tend to believe what LE stated in their application for the search warrants.

There is always three sides to every story not two. Each person has their own version of the truth and somewhere in the middle is the truth,

I cannot understand why LE would lie and state something that very well could be proved with records. Like when he states that Murray was on his cell phone, with three different calls for over 40 minutes. Even if Murray was in the same room when speaking on his phone, he did not pay attention to his patient.

LE didn't deliberately lie. A mistake was made on the time line. The defense attorney also has records of the statements his client made to police. If Jackson had been dead for over an hour, the ER personal would not have attempted to resuscitate him.

imo

Firehead11

10-06-2009, 10:17 AM

LE didn't deliberately lie. A mistake was made on the time line. The defense attorney also has records of the statements his client made to police. If Jackson had been dead for over an hour, the ER personal would not have attempted to resuscitate him.

imo

No matter how many times you state that ER teams will not work on someone if they have been dead for an hour, it does not make it the truth. I have posted many a time about my friends husband and what happened at the ER room.

Murray was on the phone for 40+ minutes. There is a record of THAT time. Are you now going to try to convince everyone that the phone company has the wrong timeline also? Everyone is lying but the defense attorney and Murray?

IIRC, Murray did not tell ER doctors or LE all of the drugs he had given Jackson. Again, IIRC, he left out the propofol. It wasn't until Lee informed LE that Jackson had requested the drug from her. Yes, I know that we have NOT read Murray's statement yet. But I believe the LE, not some doctor or his lawyer that is trying to place a halo on this mans head. He administered the deadly drugs to Jackson. He neglected his patient when he was on the phone EVEN if Jackson wasn't dead at that time. Murray was not trained in this field.

I really have no idea why it is so hard to understand the fact that Murray contributed to the death of Jackson. This wasn't a medical mal practice. This was man slaughter. And now it appears that he is also the one that had the drug shipped into CA. The link for the TMZ article is somewhere here.

daniel green

10-06-2009, 12:03 PM

For several weeks, Michael Jackson's tomb at Forest Lawn Memorial Park was under maximum, 'round-the-clock security -- but TMZ has now learned the extra protection has been "scaled back." Sources tell us the mausoleum that houses Jackson's body was being monitored by a private security firm, hired specifically to protect MJ's grave -- but as of last week, the extra protection was nowhere to be seen. Sources at Forest Lawn confirm the security change, but insist Jackson's resting place will still be under the constant watch of their guards, 24-hour cameras, alarms, etc. Reps at the cemetery also mentioned there hasn't been a single suspicious incident since Jackson moved into the neighborhood.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/10/06/michael-jackson-tomb-forrest-lawn/#ixzz0TAjs0ZQ2

Shells2

10-06-2009, 12:23 PM

In reading the links it is unknown who the source is. They are all taking information from each other.

What difference does all of this make? I mean it's not like he took off and left the country. He was not under arrest and there was no arrest warrant.

This is completely a non issue. Just something more to bash the doctor with and it really makes no difference.

snipped

Police also made it clear Dr. Murray was questioned as a witness and is not a suspect.

imo

Right.. the "Media" was reporting that he was missing, but not one of them had a quote from the LE stating he was "missing". He wasn't. He was talking to LE as the LE statement June 26 noted.

It is very important to not read truth into assumption if you want the facts - if there is not a name attached to a statement, and you are using media blogs as the source of your facts, you are not going to be receiving or presenting accurate information, but merely posting your opinion, in which case that should be specified as such "I think that he was missing" ~ not "He was missing". It just makes it easier for those of us that read looking to base our own opinions on fact.

warhorse46

10-06-2009, 12:54 PM

Right.. the "Media" was reporting that he was missing, but not one of them had a quote from the LE stating he was "missing". He wasn't. He was talking to LE as the LE statement June 26 noted.

It is very important to not read truth into assumption if you want the facts - if there is not a name attached to a statement, and you are using media blogs as the source of your facts, you are not going to be receiving or presenting accurate information, but merely posting your opinion, in which case that should be specified as such "I think that he was missing" ~ not "He was missing". It just makes it easier for those of us that read looking to base our own opinions on fact.

Hmmmm, there are two separate places in my post that state it was my opinion.

<<10-05-2009, 12:09 AM
warhorse46
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Posts: 13,949

I think he said a lot more than no comment because later the police were looking hard to find him to question him further. That is when he had skipped out & stayed hidden for 3 days.
__________________
above post is MOO,unless otherwise stated. >>

Unperson1984

10-06-2009, 01:15 PM

No matter how many times you state that ER teams will not work on someone if they have been dead for an hour, it does not make it the truth. I have posted many a time about my friends husband and what happened at the ER room.

Murray was on the phone for 40+ minutes. There is a record of THAT time. Are you now going to try to convince everyone that the phone company has the wrong timeline also? Everyone is lying but the defense attorney and Murray?

IIRC, Murray did not tell ER doctors or LE all of the drugs he had given Jackson. Again, IIRC, he left out the propofol. It wasn't until Lee informed LE that Jackson had requested the drug from her. Yes, I know that we have NOT read Murray's statement yet. But I believe the LE, not some doctor or his lawyer that is trying to place a halo on this mans head. He administered the deadly drugs to Jackson. He neglected his patient when he was on the phone EVEN if Jackson wasn't dead at that time. Murray was not trained in this field.

I really have no idea why it is so hard to understand the fact that Murray contributed to the death of Jackson. This wasn't a medical mal practice. This was man slaughter. And now it appears that he is also the one that had the drug shipped into CA. The link for the TMZ article is somewhere here.

Let me preface this by saying I want Murray held criminally responsible for his actions leading to MJ’s death. These white collar drug dealers need to be stopped and I see the criminal code as the most effective tool for so doing.

As far as we have learned, Murray is a well-educated and a well-thought of doctor up to this point in his professional life. Nothing we have learned would lead me to conclude he found his patient not breathing and didn’t call for help for over an hour.

I believe the officer was in error regarding the time. I don’t believe a doctor would wait an hour and I can't imagine his lawyer would allow Murray to make such an inculpatory statement to LE.

I think it more likely Murray noticed MJ wasn't breathing after the 40 minute phone call, which would have ended approximately between 11:45AM and 12:09PM.

IMO

LadyFuzz

10-06-2009, 01:17 PM

No matter how many times you state that ER teams will not work on someone if they have been dead for an hour, it does not make it the truth. I have posted many a time about my friends husband and what happened at the ER room.

Murray was on the phone for 40+ minutes. There is a record of THAT time. Are you now going to try to convince everyone that the phone company has the wrong timeline also? Everyone is lying but the defense attorney and Murray?

IIRC, Murray did not tell ER doctors or LE all of the drugs he had given Jackson. Again, IIRC, he left out the propofol. It wasn't until Lee informed LE that Jackson had requested the drug from her. Yes, I know that we have NOT read Murray's statement yet. But I believe the LE, not some doctor or his lawyer that is trying to place a halo on this mans head. He administered the deadly drugs to Jackson. He neglected his patient when he was on the phone EVEN if Jackson wasn't dead at that time. Murray was not trained in this field.

I really have no idea why it is so hard to understand the fact that Murray contributed to the death of Jackson. This wasn't a medical mal practice. This was man slaughter. And now it appears that he is also the one that had the drug shipped into CA. The link for the TMZ article

is somewhere here.

First of all you have never stated how long it was before your friend's husband was found. It's O/T anyway.

Most of your post is speculation (opinion), but you do not state it as such.

Murray admitted to police what he had done.

This was a medical mistake and not criminal.

JMO

LadyFuzz

10-06-2009, 01:20 PM

MK~ULTRA

10-06-2009, 01:53 PM

MK~ULTRA

10-06-2009, 02:12 PM

I agree. It's a fact Murray didn't beat down MJ's door and force drugs into him against his will. It's a fact Jackson hired Murray.

Yes.

It seems some would like to forget Michael Jackson pretty much hand picked Dr. Murray.

Does Dr. Murray deserve some form of legal consequence for his perceived actions or perceived inactions?

Of course.

Murder charge? Not gonna happen.

imo... of course.

Firehead11

10-06-2009, 04:44 PM

I do have an idea why some seem to find it hard to understand the fact that Michael Jackson contributed to his own death.

Denial of personal responsibility so the blame could be placed upon Dr. Murray.

imo... of course.

I have admitted time and time again (do a search) that Jackson contributed to his death. He has paid the ultimate price for his choices in his life.

Now this doctor needs to pay for his actions. If he didn't insert the drugs in Jackson's arm, then maybe Jackson would still be alive.

LadyFuzz

10-06-2009, 05:04 PM

I have admitted time and time again (do a search) that Jackson contributed to his death. He has paid the ultimate price for his choices in his life.

Now this doctor needs to pay for his actions. If he didn't insert the drugs in Jackson's arm, then maybe Jackson would still be alive.

Do you think Jackson is automatically resolved of his responsibility in his own death because he "paid the ultimate price"?

Jackson was a freight train waiting to crash. IMO

Shells2

10-06-2009, 05:32 PM

Note the article was written late Friday night 6/26.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/us/28Jackson.html

Note that the article was posted at 7:25 PST... a little more than 24 hours after MJ was prounounced dead... ( NY is on EST )

daniel green

10-06-2009, 05:34 PM

LadyFuzz

10-06-2009, 06:29 PM

Here are the facts.

MJ was taken to hospital on the 25th--it was night by the time Jermaine gave the press conf to say MJ was dead.

On the 27th, Dr M and his atty came to LAPD for a formal interview.

No matter what some tabloid says, Dr M was not MIA for 2-3 days.

Period.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/24/murray.search.warrant.affadavits.pdf

Bizarre isn't it? I don't know what the big deal is anyway. Murray could have waited much longer and it wouldn't matter. I just don't get it.

Let's not forget, he has a right to an attorney. He didn't have to speak to police AT ALL.

imo

daniel green

10-06-2009, 06:36 PM

Bizarre isn't it? I don't know what the big deal is anyway. Murray could have waited much longer and it wouldn't matter. I just don't get it.

Let's not forget, he has a right to an attorney.

imo

He didn't have to talk to police at all.

But he did.

He told them where the bottles of meds were in the closet (that the police had not found) and where his doc bag was, etc, as well.

So, by the time line given by LAPD, Murray was at the hospital to tell the family and the children that MJ was dead. That was on the evening of the 25th. And by the 27th, he was already having a formal sit down with police. When was he MIA? :confused:

LadyFuzz

10-06-2009, 06:44 PM

He didn't have to talk to police at all.

But he did.

He told them where the bottles of meds were in the closet (that the police had not found) and where his doc bag was, etc, as well.

So, by the time line given by LAPD, Murray was at the hospital to tell the family and the children that MJ was dead. That was on the evening of the 25th. And by the 27th, he was already having a formal sit down with police. When was he MIA? :confused:

Also, IIRC, there was nothing found in his car that was the least bit incriminating. imo

Firehead11

10-06-2009, 06:54 PM

daniel green

10-06-2009, 07:03 PM

Where is the link of what Murray says? Murray and not his mouth piece.

It's in the LAPD Affidavit in support for the search warrants of all the docs and nurse Lee. The one we've all read and I just posted a link for. :huh:

daniel green

10-06-2009, 07:05 PM

Here are the facts:

The search warrant application states on page two that neither the coroners investigation personnel nor detectives could not locate Murray at the hospital. Repeated attempts were unsuccessful. However on page three it states that on June 27, 2009, a detective Smith met with Murray and his attorneys.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson2.html

Uh huh. That's what I said just a couple posts up. :huh:

Shells2

10-06-2009, 07:10 PM

I don't have a problem with wanting facts that can be read by myself. That is why I ask for links.

Read the post where the LE stated that Murray could not be contacted.

That's all I was asking - for fact to be posted as fact, and when something is an opinion, to be posted as that. It is hard enough to get a clear view on a murky subject without more mud getting thrown in.

I have read one quote, or statement issued by LE stating that Murray was missing.

daniel green

10-06-2009, 07:13 PM

snipped
I have read one quote, or statement issued by LE stating that Murray was missing.

In that Affidavit they say they couldn't find him at the hospital the night MJ died.

That then becomes to Dr M was MIA for days. :rolleyes:

Shells2

10-06-2009, 07:18 PM

In that Affidavit they say they couldn't find him at the hospital the night MJ died.

That then becomes to Dr M was MIA for days. :rolleyes:

..and yet a month prior to the search warrant being filed by the prosecution, LAPD detectives publicly stated that they had spoken to him at the hospital.

Shells2

10-06-2009, 10:23 PM

However they wanted to question him further AFTER Dr. Murray left the hospital AND the state of CA and went to Texas to retain a lawyer (which I don't blame him) -- LE did not know his whereabouts so technically he was "missing" until he and his attorney contacted LE. JMO

"The police had been seeking to question Dr. Murray at length after a brief conversation he had with officers after Mr. Jackson, 50, was pronounced dead. The doctor’s whereabouts had been unclear to them, and they impounded his car, saying it could contain information they needed in the investigation."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/us/28Jackson.html

But yet on 6/26 they were saying that Dr. Murray was fully co-operating. The media was the only ones that classified him as "missing". LE may have known fully well where Dr. Murray was ~ as they have not told us differently. He wasn't missing for days, as previously posted, that is for sure.

warhorse46

10-06-2009, 10:30 PM

Bizarre isn't it? I don't know what the big deal is anyway. Murray could have waited much longer and it wouldn't matter. I just don't get it.

Let's not forget, he has a right to an attorney. He didn't have to speak to police AT ALL.

imo

I think getting an attorney was the smartest thing he has done in all of this mess. I don't blame him one bit for doing that.

warhorse46

10-06-2009, 10:33 PM

He didn't have to talk to police at all.

But he did.

He told them where the bottles of meds were in the closet (that the police had not found) and where his doc bag was, etc, as well.

So, by the time line given by LAPD, Murray was at the hospital to tell the family and the children that MJ was dead. That was on the evening of the 25th. And by the 27th, he was already having a formal sit down with police. When was he MIA? :confused:

From the 25th to the 27th is two days. The police could not contact him during that time, they were looking for him for more questioning. At that point he was not considered a suspect, heck @ that point the police had not determined any crime had been committed. They just needed information.

daniel green

10-07-2009, 12:46 AM

From the 25th to the 27th is two days. The police could not contact him during that time, they were looking for him for more questioning. At that point he was not considered a suspect, heck @ that point the police had not determined any crime had been committed. They just needed information.

No, WH, I disagree. The Affidavit clearly spells it out.

That the investigators could not find him at the hosp the night of the 25th. No mention that they looked for him on the 26th, and by the following morning, there he was with his lawyer at the police dpt for a formal interview--which makes it very clear that the police had been in contact with him on the 26th.

daniel green

10-07-2009, 12:48 AM

..and yet a month prior to the search warrant being filed by the prosecution, LAPD detectives publicly stated that they had spoken to him at the hospital.

Yep. Go figure, eh? But yet that Affidavit is just absolutely the truth, the whole thruth...:w00t:

Firehead11

10-07-2009, 05:14 AM

That's all I was asking - for fact to be posted as fact, and when something is an opinion, to be posted as that. It is hard enough to get a clear view on a murky subject without more mud getting thrown in.

I have read one quote, or statement issued by LE stating that Murray was missing.

How many quotes do you need to be issued by the LE that Murray was missing? Would two make it more believable? Is it necessary that LE come out and explain things more than once to the public in this case?

Let's get real here. TMZ, while it is a tabloid, the majority of the leaks came from someone in the know. All have been prove to be true. TMZ are the ones that broke the story of his death and everything that has followed from there.

Links have been provided and refused because it came from an "unknown source". But meanwhile, some of us have been expected to accept what a person saw on a tv program as gospel. We cannot view it for ourselves and form our own opinion at all. We have been posting what we have experienced in our own lives, and have basically been called liars. How do you have a discussion with that?

Everyone one of us form our opinions based on what we experience from life. We can each read a passage in the Bible and come to a different interpretation.

I do not know how one can get a clear view of issues without having all of the evidence available. Most on this board is speculation.

IMO, if the same thing happened to any one of your own family members, whether they were a drug addict or not, I can just about guarantee that each one of the posters who feel this is acceptable behavior from a doctor, would be wanting that same doctor prosecuted for murder.

I will be very interested in seeing the full tox report.
I will be very interested in reading Murrays statement that he gave to LE.
I will be very interested in following any trial that may happen with this case.

IMO, the very least that this doctor should be charged with is man slaughter.