Michael Jackson -9/21 ------ [includes 9/25 Dateline]

[Emerald]

MJ was not a perfect parent. Neither was I. Nor were my parents. Not even MJ's parents.

Life goes on. It should continue for those children without them constantly having to read or hear what an awful person MJ was. Nothing anyone can do to undo the past. They need to be taught personal accountability instead of relying on the victim mentality.

[Firehead11]

Was posting a reply and thread was closed.....so bringing this over from last one:

Yes it does. He was taking multiple, excessive amounts of downers to get high. Does "milk of amnesia" every night in his bedroom count as "medically indicated?" He bought unethical Dr.'s to prescribe
the types and amounts of drugs he wanted, not needed. He was a substance abuser the likes of which I have never seen before.

Since we have not seen the results of the tox report, I will wait before I state that he was doing so many drugs in the days/weeks before he died.

Very informative article.

http://www.doitnow.org/pages/137.html

[warhorse46]

MJ was not a perfect parent. Neither was I. Nor were my parents. Not even MJ's parents.

Life goes on. It should continue for those children without them constantly having to read or hear what an awful person MJ was. Nothing anyone can do to undo the past. They need to be taught personal accountability instead of relying on the victim mentality.



I agree that the 3 children need to be taught personal accountability but unfortunately I believe they are not in the best of environments nor surrounded by the best of people for this to happen. I believe Katherine's track record of covering up for MJ's inappropriate behavior will continue with these children as well. These children will stumble, make bad decisions, test the limits of their boundries as all children do but I do not believe they will have the strong parenting from Katherine to set & keep them on the right path.

[Imperfect4]

Was posting a reply and thread was closed.....so bringing this over from last one:



Since we have not seen the results of the tox report, I will wait before I state that he was doing so many drugs in the days/weeks before he died.

Very informative article.

http://www.doitnow.org/pages/137.html

Thanks for the link. I agree it was informative, and I especially appreciated the following, down toward the end of the article under "Facing Facts":

Because of all the wonder drugs developed in all the years we've been trying to fight off tension with pills, none is as miraculous as people taking control of their own lives and making things happen for themselves.

And when people are really making things happen, they're rarely strung out on pills -- especially downers.

Think about it. And if you need to, do something about it.

I Googled about MJ's 2007 outstanding pharmacy bill because I was curious and wanted to refresh my memory. It was almost $102,000 and was for about a 10-month period, according to one source (http://www.examiner.com/x-8543-SF-Health-News-Examiner~y2009m6d26-Deepak-Chopra-Jackson-doctors-fed-Oxycontin-Demerol-addiction). That's $10,000/month in medication.

I take two prescription medications -- one daily and one as needed. I take generics, and my health insurance co-pay is $15 for each. At $30/month, it would take me 283 years to rack up a bill that size. It took MJ under one year. That's jaw-dropping no matter what angle you view it from.

[warhorse46]

Thanks for the link. I agree it was informative, and I especially appreciated the following, down toward the end of the article under "Facing Facts":



I Googled about MJ's 2007 outstanding pharmacy bill because I was curious and wanted to refresh my memory. It was almost $102,000 and was for about a 10-month period, according to one source (http://www.examiner.com/x-8543-SF-Health-News-Examiner~y2009m6d26-Deepak-Chopra-Jackson-doctors-fed-Oxycontin-Demerol-addiction). That's $10,000/month in medication.

I take two prescription medications -- one daily and one as needed. I take generics, and my health insurance co-pay is $15 for each. At $30/month, it would take me 283 years to rack up a bill that size. It took MJ under one year. That's jaw-dropping no matter what angle you view it from.


I would venture to say some small hospitals don't spend that much a month on medications! Wow!

[Cindylee]

Jackson Wobbles During 'This Is It' Rehearsal

Posted Sep 21st 2009 11:45AM by TMZ Staff

New rehearsal footage from Michael Jackson's "This Is It" concert-turned-movie has been released, showing the King of Pop going over his moves for the the song "Human Nature."

But check out the footage, there's something about his performance that's a little off...


More Michael Jackson

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RlFM1c2K

I really didn't see him wobble. :confused:

[who_is_it]

Jackson Wobbles During 'This Is It' Rehearsal

Posted Sep 21st 2009 11:45AM by TMZ Staff

New rehearsal footage from Michael Jackson's "This Is It" concert-turned-movie has been released, showing the King of Pop going over his moves for the the song "Human Nature."

But check out the footage, there's something about his performance that's a little off...


More Michael Jackson

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RlFM1c2K

I really didn't see him wobble. :confused:

Me not, either, Cindy! I've watched it twice to figure out which part they mean but didn't see it.

[Firehead11]

Thanks for the link. I agree it was informative, and I especially appreciated the following, down toward the end of the article under "Facing Facts":



I Googled about MJ's 2007 outstanding pharmacy bill because I was curious and wanted to refresh my memory. It was almost $102,000 and was for about a 10-month period, according to one source (http://www.examiner.com/x-8543-SF-Health-News-Examiner~y2009m6d26-Deepak-Chopra-Jackson-doctors-fed-Oxycontin-Demerol-addiction). That's $10,000/month in medication.

I take two prescription medications -- one daily and one as needed. I take generics, and my health insurance co-pay is $15 for each. At $30/month, it would take me 283 years to rack up a bill that size. It took MJ under one year. That's jaw-dropping no matter what angle you view it from.

Understand what I am saying here please, just because you take two pills daily and you pay $30.00 a month for your pills does not mean that all that cost was for drugs in Jacksons case either. We don't know if he had medical insurance or paid cost for the prescriptions totally out of pocket. We do not know what that entire bill consists of. There could be other things added there also. I don't know about you but when I go to the drug store, I just don't buy my prescriptions there. Anyway he had a drug habit. We all know that.


I take 4 medicines daily. One of them would be over $400.00 a month if I didn't have insurance. The others are in the $80.00 range per month. So without insurance it would cost me $640.00 per month. Now if I add in my husband's who takes 6 medicines daily, then we are closer to 1500.00 a month.

We just can't judge accurately if one does not have all the facts.

[Roxxanne]

Me not, either, Cindy! I've watched it twice to figure out which part they mean but didn't see it.

Me either. Read through a couple pages of comments, seems no one saw the wobble.:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

Me not, either, Cindy! I've watched it twice to figure out which part they mean but didn't see it.

I think TMZ just be hard up for news on MJ. I watched it twice closely and I don't see the "wobble" they are talking about.

At the first of it he is just going through the individual steps and when he is in the costume he looks fine to me.:shrug:

imo

[Imperfect4]

Understand what I am saying here please, just because you take two pills daily and you pay $30.00 a month for your pills does not mean that all that cost was for drugs in Jacksons case either. We don't know if he had medical insurance or paid cost for the prescriptions totally out of pocket. We do not know what that entire bill consists of. There could be other things added there also. I don't know about you but when I go to the drug store, I just don't buy my prescriptions there. Anyway he had a drug habit. We all know that.


I take 4 medicines daily. One of them would be over $400.00 a month if I didn't have insurance. The others are in the $80.00 range per month. So without insurance it would cost me $640.00 per month. Now if I add in my husband's who takes 6 medicines daily, then we are closer to 1500.00 a month.

We just can't judge accurately if one does not have all the facts.

We can't make a completely accurate judgment without all the facts, which we'll never have.

However, imo, I can make a reasonably accurate judgment that $10,000/month for medications suggests a very strong possibility of a serious prescription drug abuse problem.

[daniel green]

The performance IS off. That part with the back and forth with the arms seems very strange. He is very hesitant at the beginning of the song and the notes on the word why, why are really flat. Poor MJ looked gaunt and emaciated in it.

[daniel green]

I would venture to say some small hospitals don't spend that much a month on medications! Wow!

I agree. It is an astronomical amount.

Thank you, Imperfect, for the math on that! Really puts it in perspective. :scared:

[Imperfect4]

The performance IS off. That part with the back and forth with the arms seems very strange. He is very hesitant at the beginning of the song and the notes on the word why, why are really flat. Poor MJ looked gaunt and emaciated in it.

I watched it twice. Didn't see a wobble, but I agree the arm or hand shaking motion is strange. I noticed it in the rehearsal they played over and over right after he died, as well. It's as though the arm or hand feels numb or lacks sensation or maybe is cramping or hurting?

Overall, he looked very fragile to me. I can't imagine, if he felt like he looked (underfed and exhausted, for starters), how concered he had to be at the prospect of going on tour.

[ABC]

I watched it twice. Didn't see a wobble, but I agree the arm or hand shaking motion is strange. I noticed it in the rehearsal they played over and over right after he died, as well. It's as though the arm or hand feels numb or lacks sensation or maybe is cramping or hurting?

Overall, he looked very fragile to me. I can't imagine, if he felt like he looked (underfed and exhausted, for starters), how concered he had to be at the prospect of going on tour.

I agree. Although, I doubt he was concerned about making the Tour.

[Firehead11]

We can't make a completely accurate judgment without all the facts, which we'll never have.

However, imo, I can make a reasonably accurate judgment that $10,000/month for medications suggests a very strong possibility of a serious prescription drug abuse problem.

Can you? I think it is more like an assumpation to even think that 10 grand was all on prescription drugs for just his use.


Maybe his entire family's scripts are also on that bill. We already know that Jackson supported that entire household.

[Imperfect4]

Can you? I think it is more like an assumpation to even think that 10 grand was all on prescription drugs for just his use.


Maybe his entire family's scripts are also on that bill. We already know that Jackson supported that entire household.

Even if the bill included his family's scripts, his toiletries, magazines, stuff for the kids ... a $10,000 per month pharmacy bill is HUGE.

And we know he had a prescription drug abuse problem. And we know he took enough controlled substances he had to resort to the use of several pseudonyms to get all that he wanted. So I guess my question to you is, why would you doubt the majority of the pharmacy expense was to support Michael's substance abuse problem? I don't follow your logic. :huh:

[Imperfect4]

I agree. Although, I doubt he was concerned about making the Tour.

If he wasn't, he should've been, imo. I think the original 10 dates were in doubt, given how frail and hesitant he appeared in that clip.

[GentleBreeze]

The performance IS off. That part with the back and forth with the arms seems very strange. He is very hesitant at the beginning of the song and the notes on the word why, why are really flat. Poor MJ looked gaunt and emaciated in it.

Didn't the Coroner say MJ was not emaciated?

He is small but then MJ has always been very slim. He didn't look gaunt and certainly not emaciated in the clip to me.

imo

[Cindylee]

If he wasn't, he should've been, imo. I think the original 10 dates were in doubt, given how frail and hesitant he appeared in that clip.

I agree he looked very thin. I also think he would have had a hard time doing the concerts.

[GentleBreeze]

Me either. Read through a couple pages of comments, seems no one saw the wobble.:confused:

Also it is logical that this was a rehearsal where he was also giving instructions to what he was going to do first and he wouldn't give it his all like he would in the actual show.

Is this the first time we have seen video clips of MJ when he was doing a rehearsal for a show other than the short clip where he got burned in the Pepsi commercial?

imo

[daniel green]

I watched it twice. Didn't see a wobble, but I agree the arm or hand shaking motion is strange. I noticed it in the rehearsal they played over and over right after he died, as well. It's as though the arm or hand feels numb or lacks sensation or maybe is cramping or hurting?

Overall, he looked very fragile to me. I can't imagine, if he felt like he looked (underfed and exhausted, for starters), how concered he had to be at the prospect of going on tour.

The wobble=shaky or hesitant or messy or whatever. Not an actual physical "wobble." As TMZ says, it was off. The notes on the whys are flat, flat, flat. He just seemed very hesitant, as well.

[Roxxanne]

Also it is logical that this was a rehearsal where he was also giving instructions to what he was going to do first and he wouldn't give it his all like he would in the actual show.

Is this the first time we have seen video clips of MJ when he was doing a rehearsal for a show other than the short clip where he got burned in the Pepsi commercial?

imo

I just checked you tube and there are a few rehearsals for different songs and tours, but I didn't see anything like this one . I want to see this so bad, but it's probably not going to be in my city. I guess I'll wait for dvd.

[Firehead11]

Even if the bill included his family's scripts, his toiletries, magazines, stuff for the kids ... a $10,000 per month pharmacy bill is HUGE.

And we know he had a prescription drug abuse problem. And we know he took enough controlled substances he had to resort to the use of several pseudonyms to get all that he wanted. So I guess my question to you is, why would you doubt the majority of the pharmacy expense was to support Michael's substance abuse problem? I don't follow your logic. :huh:

Yes, we do know he had a drug problem but I am not going to say that all 10 grand a month was drugs for his use. Even if it was half that it is still a large bill for prescription drugs.

I want to see what the levels were in his system. You know, I had always considered Anna Nicole Smith to be a druggie and I was one who was surprised at the level of drugs in her system when she died.

[ABC]

If he wasn't, he should've been, imo. I think the original 10 dates were in doubt, given how frail and hesitant he appeared in that clip.
I think his only concern was the advance money.
He was 110 lbs on a 5'10 frame and in my opinion that is emaciated.
If I remember correctly, most of the stuff in Anne Nicole's system were OTCs and prescribed Chloral Hydrate. I think of Heroin addicts as druggies along with the folks doing Cocaine, Crack, PCP and Meth.

[MK~ULTRA]

Sassy. If you are posting the truth & it is derogatory you need a link, as you could be held libel, you are responsible for what you post, a reminder to you.

Understand???

I, for one, understand completely. :)

Terry Harvey, who was a close friend of the famous family, admits the Thriller hitmaker was dependent on drugs before his death - and had been since the infamous 1984 Pepsi commercial in which Jackson's hair accidentally caught fire.

He tells Britain's News of the World, "Michael had a long-term drug habit. He was no different to a drug addict living in a crack house."

JACKSON 'LIVING LIKE A DRUG ADDICT' (http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/jackson-living-like-a-drug-addict_1110149)

This coming from a supposed 'close friend of the famous family.'

[Silver]

Just about the pharm bill... My brother has no health insurance(he lost it when his wife lost her job) and has several health problems. I went to the pharmacy with him one day and he had two of his 12 prescriptions filled. The bill was over 4,000 dollars. We both almost fainted. Imagine if he had filled them all. One thing he is being treated for is something MJ is rumoured to have as well. I can easily imagine pharmacy bills getting astronomical especially with no insurance. I would have never believed it if I had not seen it for myself.

[Firehead11]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/showbiz/michael_jackson/412480/Michael-Jackson-murder-charges-in-days-Cops-hunt-Jacko-killer.html?start=100#comments

An autopsy on the superstar has shown he died from an injected overdose of heavy-duty painkiller Diprivan.


Police have told his family they will press charges against one or more people within DAYS and there will be a criminal TRIAL.

It could involve whoever administered the injection and anyone who made it available to the star.



Terry doesn't always know what he is talking about does he? So anything that is linked to this one is a tad bit, unbelieveable to me. JMO

[MK~ULTRA]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/showbiz/michael_jackson/412480/Michael-Jackson-murder-charges-in-days-Cops-hunt-Jacko-killer.html?start=100#comments

An autopsy on the superstar has shown he died from an injected overdose of heavy-duty painkiller Diprivan.


Police have told his family they will press charges against one or more people within DAYS and there will be a criminal TRIAL.

It could involve whoever administered the injection and anyone who made it available to the star.

snipped

Police must have lied to his family. Maybe they meant they will press charges within months.

Or years. :shrug:

[Firehead11]

Police must have lied to his family. Maybe they meant they will press charges within months.

Or years. :shrug:

Why would LE do that since they had hired their own coroner? But maybe this man doesn't always know what he is talking about either. In my link it shows a picture of him with Joe Jackson..... Now how many of any of us believe a word out of Joe Jacksons mouth?

[MK~ULTRA]

snipped

In my link it shows a picture of him with Joe Jackson..... Now how many of any of us believe a word out of Joe Jacksons mouth?

Are you saying because Terry is photographed with Joe Jackson, Terry is not to be believed?

[Firehead11]

Are you saying because Terry is photographed with Joe Jackson, Terry is not to be believed?

Please do not snip my posts. One sentence is not going to save bandwidth.

I am saying that Terry talks like he knows a lot and in the interview that I linked to, he had a few things really wrong for someone one to be "in the know". The picture shows that he is aquainted with Joe Jackson but I didn't see a picture of him with Michael. He just may not be in the "know".

[daniel green]

Oh, I know something else that is strange about the video. At around 36 secs in, it changes to an old vid of MJ singing that song. Different clothes, different sound, different background. And with energy and the notes in tune.

[Roxxanne]

Oh, I know something else that is strange about the video. At around 36 secs in, it changes to an old vid of MJ singing that song. Different clothes, different sound, different background. And with energy and the notes in tune.

That's not an old video that's another rehearsal shot, IMO

[Imperfect4]

Yes, we do know he had a drug problem but I am not going to say that all 10 grand a month was drugs for his use. Even if it was half that it is still a large bill for prescription drugs.

I want to see what the levels were in his system. You know, I had always considered Anna Nicole Smith to be a druggie and I was one who was surprised at the level of drugs in her system when she died.

Long-term addicts don't always die of overdoses, though. They often die because their bodies just can't take the abuse anymore. I don't expect every substance abuser who dies young to have OD'd. I'm often surprised they live as long as they do, given what they put their bodies through.

[Firehead11]

I didn't see a wobble and I watched it a few times now but what can you expect. After all it was a rehersal.

:confused:

[daniel green]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSEkpkBlh2G9xq40AVfdZLbF_KBgD9ARSLC80

[Imperfect4]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSEkpkBlh2G9xq40AVfdZLbF_KBgD9ARSLC80

Great article, daniel. One of the most informative I've seen on the subject.

[daniel green]

Great article, daniel. One of the most informative I've seen on the subject.

I thought so, too. The comments by Levinson seem to the point. How do you get 12 jurors to see it beyond a reasonable doubt?

[Imperfect4]

I thought so, too. The comments by Levinson seem to the point. How do you get 12 jurors to see it beyond a reasonable doubt?

Honestly? I don't think you do. There's just too much else involved. Too many other medications taken for too many years prescribed by too many doctors to too many pseudonyms. And I think if you're going to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, you're going to have to give Murray a motive. At the moment, I don't see one. The financially devasted doctor did in his payday. Where is the motive?

I'm also wondering what else we might hear from Murray with regard to what he was giving MJ and why. He gave MJ propofol every night for 6 weeks straight. Every night for 6 weeks. Why? Was MJ trying to stay away from the other drugs and use only the propofol in preparation for his tour? Or did Murray maybe assume the propofol was the lesser of a lot of evils at the start of the 6 weeks? Did Murray realize after 6 weeks of a nightly dosing of propofol that another problem was being created? Is that why he switched gears and withheld the propofol that night and gave MJ other stuff instead, for many hours before relenting and going back to the propofol?

Murray screwed up, without a doubt. But I think his explanation for why he did what he did will be important for a jury to hear (if it gets that far).

[GentleBreeze]

Honestly? I don't think you do. There's just too much else involved. Too many other medications taken for too many years prescribed by too many doctors to too many pseudonyms. And I think if you're going to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, you're going to have to give Murray a motive. At the moment, I don't see one. The financially divested doctor did in his payday. Where is the motive?

I'm also wondering what else we might hear from Murray with regard to what he was giving MJ and why. He gave MJ propofol every night for 6 weeks straight. Every night for 6 weeks. Why? Was MJ trying to stay away from the other drugs and use only the propofol in preparation for his tour? Or did Murray maybe assume the propofol was the lesser of a lot of evils at the start of the 6 weeks? Did Murray realize after 6 weeks of a nightly dosing of propofol that another problem was being created? Is that why he switched gears and withheld the propofol that night and gave MJ other stuff instead, for many hours before relenting and going back to the propofol?

Murray screwed up, without a doubt. But I think his explanation for why he did what he did will be important for a jury to hear (if it gets that far).

I think if he tries to say his patient forced him to violate his oath he will be scoffed at by a jury if there is one impaneled. No one was forcing him when he administered it to MJ 6 weeks straight. I would think any juror would know that an addict will always ask for drugs but it is the doctor's responsibility who is supposed to be of sound mind... to do no harm.

Why does Murray have to have a motive? I don't think anyone thinks he is going to be charged with an intentional murder.

The acts were reckless and negligent and no intent or motive has to be shown for involuntary manslaughter, imo.

The question will be .....would a reasonable person in the defendant's same position have done the same under the same circumstances? Would another ethical doctor followed in Murray's footsteps. Imo, absolutely not.

I totally agree with the article Daniel linked. I could never understand why some thought this case must be rushed through. Why start the clock ticking when they still are investigating the case including Murray and other doctors? Time is on the government's side.

imo

[Imperfect4]

<snipped to address>

The question will be .....would a reasonable person in the defendant's same position have done the same under the same circumstances? Would another ethical doctor followed in Murray's footsteps. Imo, absolutely not.



An ethical doctor would not have signed on to be MJ's drug doc, so in my view, the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation. The situation was that a drug addicted celebrity had the wherewithal to hire a "Dr. Feelgood" personal physician to feed him the drugs he desired.

That has to be the starting point, imo. We're not talking about a clean, sober, healthy "patient" nor are we talking about an ethical physician, so to judge the situation by those standards would be fruitless, imo.

[Cindylee]

I think if he tries to say his patient forced him to violate his oath he will be scoffed at by a jury if there is one impaneled. No one was forcing him when he administered it to MJ 6 weeks straight. I would think any juror would know that an addict will always ask for drugs but it is the doctor's responsibility who is supposed to be of sound mind... to do no harm.

Why does Murray have to have a motive? I don't think anyone thinks he is going to be charged with an intentional murder.

The acts were reckless and negligent and no intent or motive has to be shown for involuntary manslaughter, imo.

The question will be .....would a reasonable person in the defendant's same position have done the same under the same circumstances? Would another ethical doctor followed in Murray's footsteps. Imo, absolutely not.

I totally agree with the article Daniel linked. I could never understand why some thought this case must be rushed through. Why start the clock ticking when they still are investigating the case including Murray and other doctors? Time is on the government's side.

imo

Another ETHICAL Dr., NO, but that is when I would bring up the fact that at least one other Dr. gave MJ propofol on the other tour. There have been a few Dr.'s IMO who have accommodated MJ.

[Cindylee]

An ethical doctor would not have signed on to be MJ's drug doc, so in my view, the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation. The situation was that a drug addicted celebrity had the wherewithal to hire a "Dr. Feelgood" personal physician to feed him the drugs he desired.

That has to be the starting point, imo. We're not talking about a clean, sober, healthy "patient" nor are we talking about an ethical physician, so to judge the situation by those standards would be fruitless, imo.

This is what I was just trying to say. You said it much better. :wink:

[GentleBreeze]

An ethical doctor would not have signed on to be MJ's drug doc, so in my view, the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation. The situation was that a drug addicted celebrity had the wherewithal to hire a "Dr. Feelgood" personal physician to feed him the drugs he desired.

That has to be the starting point, imo. We're not talking about a clean, sober, healthy "patient" nor are we talking about an ethical physician, so to judge the situation by those standards would be fruitless, imo.

I don't think his past drug use has any relevancy to the acts that caused his death. I have faith that the jury can understand they are there to see if Murray acted recklessly and neglectfully which resulted in MJs death. Since drugs touch so many families lives these days it would not surprise me if some of the jurors have had loved one who were addicted to drugs and know what a monster this addiction can be.

IMO, James Brown did drugs all of his adult life and he was preforming when he was in his 70s. I have read so many articles about stars who were zoned out on drugs for many years as they performed. MJ was getting his life back on track imo. He rehired his old team, he was engaging again with the crew members and very involved in the tour. Imo, MJ would be alive today if it weren't for Murray's inattentive actions that cost MJ his life.

I just don't think DA adjust victims worth downward and give others more weight just because they may be clean and sober. IMO, that is like saying a prostitute's life is considered downward by a DA and they will soften the punishment of the person who may have murdered them or assaulted them, etc.

It is well known that AG Brown sees these people who are addicted to prescription drugs as vulnerable victims in his state.... preyed upon by the doctors who supplies them their drugs for the bucks because they are vulnerable human beings.

He could have hired a team of them but for them to do this totally disregarding their oath then the results of the death is on them...They have the power to say "No, I will have no part in it but I will be glad to help you try to kick this terrible addiction."

I want to see one ethical anesthesiologist say with a straight face they would have administered dipivan to the very same patient every night for six weeks straight? Or if they would have also given him the other drug that also suppresses the respiratory system mixed with the diprivan.

I think society is getting sick of these Dr. Feel Goods who are nothing more than licensed drug pushers.

imo

[Cindylee]

I don't think his past drug use has any relevancy to the acts that caused his death. I have faith that the jury can understand they are there to see if Murray acted recklessly and neglectfully which resulted in MJs death. Since drugs touch so many families lives these days it would not surprise me if some of the jurors have had loved one who were addicted to drugs and know what a monster this addiction can be.

IMO, James Brown did drugs all of his adult life and he was preforming when he was in his 70s. I have read so many articles about stars who were zoned out on drugs for many years as they performed. MJ was getting his life back on track imo. He rehired his old team, he was engaging again with the crew members and very involved in the tour. Imo, MJ would be alive today if it weren't for Murray's inattentive actions that cost MJ his life.

I just don't think DA adjust victims worth downward and give others more weight just because they may be clean and sober. IMO, that is like saying a prostitute's life is considered downward by a DA and they will soften the punishment of the person who may have murdered them or assaulted them, etc.

It is well known that AG Brown sees these people who are addicted to prescription drugs as vulnerable victims in his state.... preyed upon by the doctors who supplies them their drugs for the bucks because they are vulnerable human beings.

He could have hired a team of them but for them to do this totally disregarding their oath then the results of the death is on them...They have the power to say "No, I will have no part in it but I will be glad to help you try to kick this terrible addiction."

I want to see one ethical anesthesiologist say with a straight face they would have administered dipivan to the very same patient every night for six weeks straight? Or if they would have also given him the other drug that also suppresses the respiratory system mixed with the diprivan.

I think society is getting sick of these Dr. Feel Goods who are nothing more than licensed drug pushers.

imo

I think the Dr. Feel goods need to be held accountable, but you can't discount the addicts part in the whole of it. The Dr.'s don't hold the addict down and give them drugs. They ask for it. Is that just discounted? Not to me. And again if it wasn't Dr. Murray, it would have been someone else.

[daniel green]

An ethical doctor would not have signed on to be MJ's drug doc, so in my view, the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation snipped.

Exactly. And there will be the fly in the ointment.

[GentleBreeze]

Another ETHICAL Dr., NO, but that is when I would bring up the fact that at least one other Dr. gave MJ propofol on the other tour. There have been a few Dr.'s IMO who have accommodated MJ.

I really don't know. I have never seen any real evidence of that or proof. And they couldn't just bring it out. They would have to prove that the doctor did give it to him back many years ago and that has nothing to do with the cause of death in this case. Another doctor didn't administered it, Murray did.

It could show, I guess, why MJ thought it was safe if he had been given the drug before and wasn't harmed.

imo

[daniel green]

snipped

I want to see one ethical anesthesiologist say with a straight face they would have administered dipivan to the very same patient every night for six weeks straight?

That is gonna be a huge problem. That you have a patient who had two anesthesiologists on his payroll, who had been put into drug-induced comas for a very long time and who hired doctors for this very thing.

The doctor's ethics, btw, are not going to be on trial.

[daniel green]

I really don't know. I have never seen any real evidence of that or proof. And they couldn't just bring it out. snipped

Why of course they could. And would. That is the sticky wicket in getting this case past even a DA and/or grand jury--as per the articles linked to in the past couple wks here.

And of course there is proof of it. That is why the LAPD got search warrants for all those docs and nurse Lee for their records, etc. Klein has talked about MJ having used it. Adams admitted to giving it to MJ, etc.

[Unperson1984]

I really don't know. I have never seen any real evidence of that or proof. And they couldn't just bring it out. They would have to prove that the doctor did give it to him back many years ago and that has nothing to do with the cause of death in this case. Another doctor didn't administered it, Murray did.

It could show, I guess, why MJ thought it was safe if he had been given the drug before and wasn't harmed.

imo

And why Murray thought it was safe to administer in a home setting.

[Unperson1984]

That is gonna be a huge problem. That you have a patient who had two anesthesiologists on his payroll, who had been put into drug-induced comas for a very long time and who hired doctors for this very thing.

The doctor's ethics, btw, are not going to be on trial.

I think they will be on trial.

[Cindylee]

And why Murray thought it was safe to administer in a home setting.

Yes. I really also don't believe that the day MJ died was the first time Dr. Murray used the diprovan, so he would think it was safe.

[GentleBreeze]

I think the Dr. Feel goods need to be held accountable, but you can't discount the addicts part in the whole of it. The Dr.'s don't hold the addict down and give them drugs. They ask for it. Is that just discounted? Not to me. And again if it wasn't Dr. Murray, it would have been someone else.

I think that is like trying to read tealeaves and it wasnt someone else. There is no crystal ball that shows MJ would have died by the hands of another and we will never know because he died by the hands of Murray.

I don't think anyone will discount that drug addicts want drugs. I think that is a given. Of course they do...... they are addicts.

I can discount the addicts part in this. If there is a case the focus will be on the defendant who is on trial, CM, not the addicted victim. Because someone is addicted it doesn't take away their victimization done to them by another who sold their character for financial gain.

It doesnt seem like he was on anything other than what Murray said he gave him. So I guess we will see if at the time of his death whether he was really taking a lot of drugs outside of what Murray was giving him.

imo

[daniel green]

I think they will be on trial.

His ethics? How so?

[GentleBreeze]

Why of course they could. And would. That is the sticky wicket in getting this case past even a DA and/or grand jury--as per the articles linked to in the past couple wks here.

And of course there is proof of it. That is why the LAPD got search warrants for all those docs and nurse Lee for their records, etc. Klein has talked about MJ having used it. Adams admitted to giving it to MJ, etc.

Really, I thought Adams called Murray a liar and said he had not administered diprivan when Murray said he took him to LV and was there when it was administered.

Of course he has been given it. He has had multiple procedures done in a hospital setting or in a doctor's office through the years. What doctor has admitted to giving it in MJs home other than Murray?

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I think they will be on trial.

Front and center, imo.

[Cindylee]

Really, I thought Adams called Murray a liar and said he had not administered diprivan when Murray said he took him to LV and was there when it was administered.

Of course he has been given it. He has had multiple procedures done in a hospital setting or in a doctor's office through the years. What doctor has admitted to giving it in MJs home other than Murray?

imo

You don't believe the people who have said that MJ had a Dr. with him on the 90's tour giving him propofol?

[daniel green]

snipped What doctor has admitted to giving it in MJs home other than Murray?

imo

You may want to read the Affidavit again. Read the Klein interviews. Read what Adams said and the dentist said.

[daniel green]

And on Wednesday, one of the people who had direct knowledge of Jackson's medical history, longtime dermatologist Arnold Klein, told CNN's Larry King that he occasionally gave Jackson the powerful painkiller Demerol after surgical procedures, but that he had warned his patient about using the powerful anesthetic Diprivan, which Jackson is alleged to have used to combat chronic insomnia. Klein said he was not surprised to learn that investigators found a number of prescription drugs in the singer's rented Beverly Hills-area home at the time of his death. "I'm very shocked by it, but I have to tell you it's not something that would be unheard of," Klein told King. "I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany," he added, not specifying the date of the alleged use. "He was using it to go to sleep at night. I told him he was absolutely insane. I said, 'You have to quit it. This drug, you can't repeatedly take.' "

http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/37028071.html

[ABC]

An ethical doctor would not have signed on to be MJ's drug doc, so in my view, the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation. The situation was that a drug addicted celebrity had the wherewithal to hire a "Dr. Feelgood" personal physician to feed him the drugs he desired.

That has to be the starting point, imo. We're not talking about a clean, sober, healthy "patient" nor are we talking about an ethical physician, so to judge the situation by those standards would be fruitless, imo.
For a $150,000 a month? You bet they will. Given the opportunity, I would think many would be lining up to get the dough. Doc's are not Gds even if they think they are. Dr Feel Goods give uppers, and other feel good drugs like Demerol, Morphine, etc. They are not put their patients in an anesthesia induced coma where nothing is felt, in my opinion. I think Dr Murray is innocent and why he has not been arrested and charged. No one can prove that MJ did not give this to himself and long time IV drug users can do a better vein stick then the IV nurses.

[ResJudicata]

For a $150,000 a month? You bet they will. Given the opportunity, I would think many would be lining up to get the dough. Doc's are not Gds even if they think they are. Dr Feel Goods give uppers, and other feel good drugs like Demerol, Morphine, etc. They are not put their patients in an anesthesia induced coma where nothing is felt, in my opinion. I think Dr Murray is innocent and why he has not been arrested and charged. No one can prove that MJ did not give this to himself and long time IV drug users can do a better vein stick then the IV nurses.


The coroner determined that Michael DID NOT give himself the lethal drugs that killed him. The coroner wasn't there when it happened, but based on his expertise and experience, he has determined to a reasonable medical and scientific certainty that the drugs were given "by the hands of another". Thats actually pretty compelling "proof".

[daniel green]

snipped. No one can prove that MJ did not give this to himself and long time IV drug users can do a better vein stick then the IV nurses.

One need only read about the horrific, botched lethal injection last week to know that. :crying:

[Imperfect4]

For a $150,000 a month? You bet they will. Given the opportunity, I would think many would be lining up to get the dough. Doc's are not Gds even if they think they are. Dr Feel Goods give uppers, and other feel good drugs like Demerol, Morphine, etc. They are not put their patients in an anesthesia induced coma where nothing is felt, in my opinion. I think Dr Murray is innocent and why he has not been arrested and charged. No one can prove that MJ did not give this to himself and long time IV drug users can do a better vein stick then the IV nurses.

I disagree. No doctor with ethics would sign on to be a drug doc, no matter the salary, imo.

[warhorse46]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/showbiz/michael_jackson/412480/Michael-Jackson-murder-charges-in-days-Cops-hunt-Jacko-killer.html?start=100#comments

An autopsy on the superstar has shown he died from an injected overdose of heavy-duty painkiller Diprivan.


Police have told his family they will press charges against one or more people within DAYS and there will be a criminal TRIAL.

It could involve whoever administered the injection and anyone who made it available to the star.


The first glaring mistake I see is that Diprovan is an anesthetic, extremely rare to use it as a painkiller.



Terry doesn't always know what he is talking about does he? So anything that is linked to this one is a tad bit, unbelieveable to me. JMO



The first mistake I see is that Diprovan is an anesthetic, extremely rare to use it as a painkiller.

[daniel green]

The first mistake I see is that Diprovan is an anesthetic, extremely rare to use it as a painkiller.

News of the World doesn't care for pesky little things like facts.

[warhorse46]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSEkpkBlh2G9xq40AVfdZLbF_KBgD9ARSLC80



Since they are investigating many other doctors, it is going to take a very long time to complete. Maybe even years.

[Cindylee]

Well I disagree with you. My comparison between the two crimes is relevant to the topic, and spoken in general terms. While I am sorry you have had some bad experience, and if the subject is offensive to you. I might suggest you place me on ignore.

A horrible comparison. No woman asks to be raped. A drug addict does ask for drugs. GMAB

[Imperfect4]

Yes really, in a criminal context. Some think the doctor shouldn't face criminal responsibility because his victim was a drug abuser, and I believe its the same type philosophy to say a rapist didn't really victimize his victim, because she dressed like she wanted it to happen.

When this goes to trial, Michael will not be named as a codefendant, his title will remain homicide victim.

I wonder, if Michael had died of a self-administered drug overdose, who you'd be here blaming?

Not Michael, that's for sure.

What is it about the concept of Personal Responsibility that frightens you so? Is it really such a horrible thought to know we're ultimately responsible for OURSELVES in this life? I've never seen a person argue so vehemently in favor of living life with a "victim mentality." What a powerless, hopeless perspective that is.

[warhorse46]

An ethical doctor would not have signed on to be MJ's drug doc, so in my view, the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation. The situation was that a drug addicted celebrity had the wherewithal to hire a "Dr. Feelgood" personal physician to feed him the drugs he desired.

That has to be the starting point, imo. We're not talking about a clean, sober, healthy "patient" nor are we talking about an ethical physician, so to judge the situation by those standards would be fruitless, imo.




<<the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation>>
I strongly disagree with that statement. The standards should be the same for everyone, should not change to fit any situation.

[SamSpade]

MJ knew very well how deadly Diprivan could be. He found that out from Niurse Lee. She was on national television explaining how she told MJ everything that could happen with Diprivan. I am very sure Murray would have explained the dangers to him also. Michael Jackson not only consented to getting the drug, but begged for it on the very day he died. Murray could very well have a consent form signed in his possession.

That is a big fly in the ointment. IMO

[ResJudicata]

A horrible comparison. No woman asks to be raped. A drug addict does ask for drugs. GMAB


Michael hired a doctor who could prescribe drugs. He did not ask Murray to kill him, by repeatedy injecting him with lethal combinations of drugs.

[Imperfect4]

Since they are investigating many other doctors, it is going to take a very long time to complete. Maybe even years.

I think it's a good approach. The problem didn't start with Conrad Murray, but if LE widens the net and keeps the heat on, and stiffer laws are enacted to enforce penalties for Dr. Feelgoods, maybe we can stem the tide.

[ResJudicata]

MJ knew very well how deadly Diprivan could be. He found that out from Niurse Lee. She was on national television explaining how she told MJ everything that could happen with Diprivan. I am very sure Murray would have explained the dangers to him also. Michael Jackson not only consented to getting the drug, but begged for it on the very day he died. Murray could very well have a consent form signed in his possession.

That is a big fly in the ointment. IMO


You can't consent to being the victim of homicide.

[GentleBreeze]

You don't believe the people who have said that MJ had a Dr. with him on the 90's tour giving him propofol?

It isn't about believing them. Lots of people can say things.

Do these people have the proof?

I haven't seen them back it up with supporting evidence so really I don't know if it is true or not.

imo

[Cindylee]

Michael hired a doctor who could prescribe drugs. He did not ask Murray to kill him, by repeatedy injecting him with lethal combinations of drugs.

Actually, I think he did. MJ knew that risks, and wanted this particular drug anyway. So, yes I think in the long run he was taking the risk that he could die. He knew that.

[Imperfect4]

<<the standards for this investigation must be adjusted downward to accommodate the situation>>
I strongly disagree with that statement. The standards should be the same for everyone, should not change to fit any situation.

God bless America, where we are free to strongly disagree! :patriot:

[Cindylee]

I think it's a good approach. The problem didn't start with Conrad Murray, but if LE widens the net and keeps the heat on, and stiffer laws are enacted to enforce penalties for Dr. Feelgoods, maybe we can stem the tide.

I do think with this case and the ANS case, Dr.'s may just think twice.

[Cindylee]

It isn't about believing them. Lots of people can say things.

Do these people have the proof?

I haven't seen them back it up with supporting evidence so really I don't know if it is true or not.

imo

We'll see. I will bet that all of these Dr's are being looked at.

[GentleBreeze]

MJ knew very well how deadly Diprivan could be. He found that out from Niurse Lee. She was on national television explaining how she told MJ everything that could happen with Diprivan. I am very sure Murray would have explained the dangers to him also. Michael Jackson not only consented to getting the drug, but begged for it on the very day he died. Murray could very well have a consent form signed in his possession.

That is a big fly in the ointment. IMO

Homicide has no consent.

It is the taking of life by another. No where does it state the victim gave permission to be killed.

imo

[daniel green]

I am so sorry to hear that. :wub:

Thank you, Cindy. It was long ago and far away but even in 1971 the policed didn't call it "some bad experience" and certalinly would not have said anything as boorish as my ignoring ignorant comments that "might offend" me. Even the most insensitive investigator--and that was back when ppl, and police dpts were not knowledable about rape, really--would not have said such a thing.

It was really not even about me. Given the high numbers of women in this country who are sexually assaulted, I think the odds are high that another person reading this might have a more recent or more painful reaction to such a disgusting post.

[Imperfect4]

Actually, I think he did. MJ knew that risks, and wanted this particular drug anyway. So, yes I think in the long run he was taking the risk that he could die. He knew that.

By continuing his substance abuse, MJ did indeed indirectly "ask" numerous doctors and pharmacies to kill him. imo

[daniel green]

It isn't about believing them. Lots of people can say things.

Do these people have the proof?

I haven't seen them back it up with supporting evidence so really I don't know if it is true or not.

imo

As I said, you may want to read that Affidavit. Just, let's say, the part about Nurse Lee, for instance. :rolleyes:

[SamSpade]

It isn't about believing them. Lots of people can say things.

Do these people have the proof?

I haven't seen them back it up with supporting evidence so really I don't know if it is true or not.

imo

You don't remember the interview on TV when the elderly anesthesiologist was found? He doesn't practice now, because he had lost his medical license. I don't remember his name, but he admitted to traveling with Jackson and administering Diprivan during the 90s tour. He said he had all the necessary equipment to monitor Jackson. IIRC he said Jackson could afford all the necessary equipment. IMO

I think he would probably testify if necessary for the defense. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

We'll see. I will bet that all of these Dr's are being looked at.

I certainly hope so and I hope they bring them all down.

I hope they charge them all with knowingly supplying drugs to a known addict.

imo

[warhorse46]

For a $150,000 a month? You bet they will. Given the opportunity, I would think many would be lining up to get the dough. Doc's are not Gds even if they think they are. Dr Feel Goods give uppers, and other feel good drugs like Demerol, Morphine, etc. They are not put their patients in an anesthesia induced coma where nothing is felt, in my opinion. I think Dr Murray is innocent and why he has not been arrested and charged. No one can prove that MJ did not give this to himself and long time IV drug users can do a better vein stick then the IV nurses.




According to the ME MJ did NOT self inject the drug. He specifically stated it was injected by another person.

[warhorse46]

News of the World doesn't care for pesky little things like facts.



Strange how those pesky little facts tend to trip up fantasy theories.

[ResJudicata]

I wonder, if Michael had died of a self-administered drug overdose, who you'd be here blaming?

Not Michael, that's for sure.

What is it about the concept of Personal Responsibility that frightens you so? Is it really such a horrible thought to know we're ultimately responsible for OURSELVES in this life? I've never seen a person argue so vehemently in favor of living life with a "victim mentality." What a powerless, hopeless perspective that is.



Michael Jackson is the VICTIM OF HOMICIDE. He is not on trial here, nor will he be on trial in the future. If anything frightens me, is to absolve Murray of HIS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, as if MJ deserved to be killed. In fact Michael hired a doctor to give him what was necessary to sleep, instead of taking a bunch of drugs without the benefit of medical supervision. You can call me whatever you want, you usually do anyway.. I stopped calling MJ a drug addict the moment he became the victim of homicide.

[SamSpade]

Homicide has no consent.

It is the taking of life by another. No where does it state the victim gave permission to be killed.

imo

Let me say this again. Not a consent to Homicide. Good grief, how could you think that. A consent that he was explained the dangers of Diprivan and consents to get the drug. IMO

Like a consent you sign to have surgery.
jmo

[Imperfect4]

It isn't about believing them. Lots of people can say things.

Do these people have the proof?

I haven't seen them back it up with supporting evidence so really I don't know if it is true or not.

imo

I see ever more clearly, by reading some posts on this thread, how MJ was enabled his entire life to do exactly as he pleased, no matter how outrageous, and including being a drug addict.

So no one is to be believed but the ... addict? It defies logic. And it certainly didn't seem to serve Michael well, in life or in death.

[SamSpade]

Michael Jackson is the VICTIM OF HOMICIDE. He is not on trial here, nor will he be on trial in the future. If anything frightens me, is to absolve Murray of HIS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, as if MJ deserved to be killed. In fact Michael hired a doctor to give him what was necessary to sleep, instead of taking a bunch of drugs without the benefit of medical supervision. You can call me whatever you want, you usually do anyway.. I stopped calling MJ a drug addict the moment he became the victim of homicide.

Have you ever seen a trial where the victim is not put on trial also? It happens all the time. imo

[Cindylee]

Michael Jackson is the VICTIM OF HOMICIDE. He is not on trial here, nor will he be on trial in the future. If anything frightens me, is to absolve Murray of HIS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, as if MJ deserved to be killed. In fact Michael hired a doctor to give him what was necessary to sleep, instead of taking a bunch of drugs without the benefit of medical supervision. You can call me whatever you want, you usually do anyway.. I stopped calling MJ a drug addict the moment he became the victim of homicide.

But, that is the point, you can't not call MJ a drug addict. He was. And I do think that DR. M will have to pay a price for his involvement in MJ's death, the fact that MJ was a drug addict, will come in to play. I would think it would lessen whatever Dr. M is charged with. You can't discount MJ's involvement with his own death.

[Imperfect4]

Let me say this again. Not a consent to Homicide. Good grief, how could you think that. A consent that he was explained the dangers of Diprivan and consents to get the drug. IMO

Like a consent you sign to have surgery.
jmo

I understand what you're saying, Sam. It's conceivable Murray has something signed by MJ authorizing the doctor to drug up the patient to the hilt.

[Cindylee]

An addict doesn't ask to be killed by a licensed doctor either.

imo But, that was the chance he took when he asked the licensed Dr. for that particular medication........which he KNEW was dangerous....as did Dr. Murray.

[Unperson1984]

His ethics? How so?

By claiming Murray's financial problems led him to compromise his medical judgment and ethics.

[GentleBreeze]

Let me say this again. Not a consent to Homicide. Good grief, how could you think that. A consent that he was explained the dangers of Diprivan and consents to get the drug. IMO

Like a consent you sign to have surgery.
jmo

I am aware of that but if I give consent to be put under during surgery and the doc does not administer it correctly nor monitors me properly he too can be guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

What is the difference?

If that were the case then all of these doctors would be above the law and could never been found guilty in a court of law. In my hometown years ago this same thing happened to a lady. The anesthesiologist did not monitor her after he put her under. He left and went to the doctor's lounge and slept. She died and he was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. This was before they had anesthesia nurses on duty in the OR room.

imo

[ResJudicata]

I understand what you're saying, Sam. It's conceivable Murray has something signed by MJ authorizing the doctor to drug up the patient to the hilt.


The law doesn't allow you to consent to an illegal act.

[SamSpade]

The law doesn't allow you to consent to an illegal act.

What illegal act? Administering Diprivan is not illegal. A medical consent form could be used. imo

[Imperfect4]

But, that was the chance he took when he asked the licensed Dr. for that particular medication........which he KNEW was dangerous....as did Dr. Murray.

Substance abuse is risky, no matter the substance, or how it's acquired. It's a really simple concept most people can easily grasp. :blink:

[SamSpade]

I am aware of that but if I give consent to be put under during surgery and the doc does not administer it correctly nor monitors me properly he too can be guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

What is the difference?

If that were the case then all of these doctors would be above the law and could never been found guilty in a court of law. In my hometown years ago this same thing happened to a lady. The anesthesiologist did not monitor her after he put her under. He left and went to the doctor's lounge and slept. She died and he was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. This was before they had anesthesia nurses on duty in the OR room.

imo

Or the doctor would be guilty of malpractice which is not criminal and is always usually what happens. Very few cases rise to manslaughter.

If there is a consent form signed to administer the Diprivan which says Jackson was explained the dangers of Diprivan and agreed to have it anyway, it would be a big fly in the ointment to the DA, Grand Jury, and a trial jury. Just saying.........

imo

[GentleBreeze]

He is a dead entertainer, son, brother, father and drug addict.

And a victim of homicide.

imo

[ResJudicata]

What illegal act? Administering Diprivan is not illegal. A medical consent form could be used. imo

The reckless administration of the drugs and the lack of necessary life saving equipment, and a dead body, makes it illegal. Thats why it is called homicide, instead of medical mistep.

[GentleBreeze]

Have you ever seen a trial where the victim is not put on trial also? It happens all the time. imo

Im not so sure it happens all the time.

I have seen cases out of California where Judges really held a pretty tight line when it came to bashing the victim of the crime. In fact I have heard Judges remind the defense attorney that the victim is not on trial.

imo

[SamSpade]

The reckless administration of the drugs and the lack of necessary life saving equipment, and a dead body, makes it illegal. Thats why it is called homicide, instead of medical mistep.

Again, it is not known what medical equipment was in the room. It is not known if Diprivan was administered recklessly. The only part of your post that is not rumor is the the dead body. imo

Why is it you never have to post it is your opinion and never have to furnish a link?

[Imperfect4]

And a victim of homicide.

imo

Imo, he was a victim of his own substance abuse first, which precipitated his becoming a victim of homicide.

If he wasn't abusing drugs, there would've been no Murray, no physical debilitation brought on by drug abuse, no propofol, no homicide.

It's very important, when assigning blame, to understand who provoked the event (MJ), as well as who reacted to it (Murray).

[SamSpade]

Im not so sure it happens all the time.

I have seen cases out of California where Judges really held a pretty tight line when it came to bashing the victim of the crime. In fact I have heard Judges remind the defense attorney that the victim is not on trial.

imo

What about the Spector case? What about the Blake case? What about Jackson's molestation trial? It happens all the time and it will happen in this case if it goes to trial. imo

[Cindylee]

Imo, he was a victim of his own substance abuse first, which precipitated his becoming a victim of homicide.

If he wasn't abusing drugs, there would've been no Murray, no physical debilitation brought on by drug abuse, no propofol, no homicide.

It's very important, when assigning blame, to understand who provoked the event (MJ), as well as who reacted to it (Murray).

Exactly..............

[SamSpade]

I don't think Murray will be charged, but if he is, I don't think he will be convicted.

I wonder what's up with the medical board. I don't think there has been a peep out of them.

MOO

[warhorse46]

Michael Jackson is the VICTIM OF HOMICIDE. He is not on trial here, nor will he be on trial in the future. If anything frightens me, is to absolve Murray of HIS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, as if MJ deserved to be killed. In fact Michael hired a doctor to give him what was necessary to sleep, instead of taking a bunch of drugs without the benefit of medical supervision. You can call me whatever you want, you usually do anyway.. I stopped calling MJ a drug addict the moment he became the victim of homicide.



If this goes to trial you can bet the defense will put MJ on trial. It is done hundreds of times daily by defense lawyers. Standard defense ploy to divert attention away from their client. Being a victim of a homicide does not negate the fact that MJ was an addict when he died, he is both.

[sallemae]

Jackson Wobbles During 'This Is It' Rehearsal

Posted Sep 21st 2009 11:45AM by TMZ Staff

New rehearsal footage from Michael Jackson's "This Is It" concert-turned-movie has been released, showing the King of Pop going over his moves for the the song "Human Nature."

But check out the footage, there's something about his performance that's a little off...


More Michael Jackson

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RlFM1c2K

I really didn't see him wobble. :confused:

I don't think he wobbled either, he made a move that didn't go with the dance, leaning forward then backward, like waiting to get the beat or something....but no wobble. And the promoter was right there, after the forward backward move, the band started playing.

More exaggerations from the media.....for the crew here......imo

[SamSpade]

I don't think he wobbled either, he made a move that didn't go with the dance, leaning forward then backward, like waiting to get the beat or something....but no wobble. And the promoter was right there, after the forward backward move, the band started playing.

More exaggerations from the media.....for the crew here......imo

I don't think he wobbled either. His voice sounded good. It was a rehearsal. Things like that happen and that's why they rehearse. imo

[ResJudicata]

If this goes to trial you can bet the defense will put MJ on trial. It is done hundreds of times daily by defense lawyers. Standard defense ploy to divert attention away from their client. Being a victim of a homicide does not negate the fact that MJ was an addict when he died, he is both.


Yes I know the defense will do that, as much as the judge will allow it. Being a dead addict does not negate the fact that he is a dead homicide victim.

[ABC]

According to the ME MJ did NOT self inject the drug. He specifically stated it was injected by another person.
The DA, if they charge and arrest Dr Murry, would have to prove that is what happened and no doubt the ME would testify to that. The defense, of course, will bring in experts who contradict the ME's evaluation. That is what trials are about and of course, as always, the Constitution quarantees us to be considered innocent until proven quilty.

[Firehead11]

If this goes to trial, I want to hear other cardiologists state that they themselves have given this drug to a patient. It doesn't have to be Jackson.

People keep forgetting that Murray was a cardiologist and not an anesthesiologist. There is where the big difference lies. He was not trained to administer this drug.

[Firehead11]

The DA, if they charge and arrest Dr Murry, would have to prove that is what happened and no doubt the ME would testify to that. The defense, of course, will bring in experts who contradict the ME's evaluation. That is what trials are about and of course, as always, the Constitution quarantees us to be considered innocent until proven quilty.

Apparently not in Jackson's case but rather in the case of the doctor who contributed to Jacksons case it does. Go figure.

[Emerald]

MJ wobbled in the rehearsal video?:rolleyes:

He was a 50 year old man at the beginning of training for the equivalent of performing in several marathons a week.

[Emerald]

I do think with this case and the ANS case, Dr.'s may just think twice.

JMO

The Drs cannot be held completely responsible. The person acquiring the drugs is culpable as well. Interactive electronic record keeping would be a good start.

[Firehead11]

JMO

The Drs cannot be held completely responsible. The person acquiring the drugs is culpable as well. Interactive electronic record keeping would be a good start.

What do you think Murray should receive out of all of this?

[Emerald]

What do you think Murray should receive out of all of this?

:unsure:

Dr Murray is culpable if he improperly administered drugs to MJ.

MJ is responsible for the drugs he ingested.

I'm not a legal eagle, so do not know well the terms. Dr. Murray would not have intentionally allowed MJ to die, IMO.

When MJ was shopping for the drug (according to the nurse), who would have administered it if he had acquired it?

[Firehead11]

:unsure:

Dr Murray is culpable if he improperly administered drugs to MJ.
As per the coroner, Jackson died of an overdose of propofol at the hands of another

MJ is responsible for the drugs he ingested.
Are we talking about pills that might have been found partially digested in Jackson's stomach?

I'm not a legal eagle, so do not know well the terms. Dr. Murray would not have intentionally allowed MJ to die, IMO.
I don't believe that anyone is stating that Murray intentionally murdered Jackson, if we did, I believe then it would be 1st degree murder

When MJ was shopping for the drug (according to the nurse), who would have administered it if he had acquired it?
I have to wonder if Nurse Lee will be changing her story since now Murray seems to be pointing a finger at her.

What will your opinion be if it is found out that Murray did indeed purchase the drug?

[warhorse46]

Yes I know the defense will do that, as much as the judge will allow it. Being a dead addict does not negate the fact that he is a dead homicide victim.


That is right, as I stated previously, he is both.

[warhorse46]

Apparently not in Jackson's case but rather in the case of the doctor who contributed to Jacksons case it does. Go figure.



The presumption of innocence applies ONLY to the tryers of facts (either a jury or Judge) inside a court room. It was not designed to, never has & never will apply to the general public (of which we here on message boards are a part).

[warhorse46]

JMO

The Drs cannot be held completely responsible. The person acquiring the drugs is culpable as well. Interactive electronic record keeping would be a good start.


Doesn't work that way in criminal courts. Criminal courts cannot divide the culpability like civil courts do.

[Poochie Pie]

Again, it is not known what medical equipment was in the room. It is not known if Diprivan was administered recklessly. The only part of your post that is not rumor is the the dead body. imo

Why is it you never have to post it is your opinion and never have to furnish a link? Hi SamSpade.... You make some very good points in your post.. HOWEVER, I respectfully disagree with the "It is not known if Diprivan was administered recklessly"... The fact that the Coroner called MJ's death a "Homicide", paired with the fact that the Coroner listed "acute propofol intoxication" first in the Toxicology report, certainly tells ME that the Diprivan (propofol) was administered recklessly... IMO.. Yes, there were other drugs that contributed.. But, had he not had such a high level of propofol in his system, perhaps he would have survived... No way around it... Dr. Murray was in charge.. He dropped the ball.. IMO

Poochie

[Poochie Pie]

The presumption of innocence applies ONLY to the tryers of facts (either a jury or Judge) inside a court room. It was not designed to, never has & never will apply to the general public (of which we here on message boards are a part). Thank you..!!! Absolutely correct warhorse..

Poochie

[Firehead11]

The presumption of innocence applies ONLY to the tryers of facts (either a jury or Judge) inside a court room. It was not designed to, never has & never will apply to the general public (of which we here on message boards are a part).

Then would you agree that since that is the case that some can actually call Murray a murderer since Jackson died by the hands of another or shall we wait until charges are pressed?

[ResJudicata]

Then would you agree that since that is the case that some can actually call Murray a murderer since Jackson died by the hands of another or shall we wait until charges are pressed?

I think I'll go ahead and say I think he's guilty of 2nd degree murder.
:ohmy:

[Poochie Pie]

I think I'll go ahead and say I think he's guilty of 2nd degree murder.
:ohmy: I agree that could very well be a possible charge Res... either that or involuntary manslaughter.. We must be very careful NOT to totally absolve Dr. Murray of any responsibility in this case, IMO... I have read many posts stating "Michael begged, Michael demanded, Michael required" etc... Totally irrelevant... Try going in to a Dr.'s Office and demanding and begging for triple your prescription for Oxycontin, or Demerol etc... "Do No Harm" does NOT apply to us, as the patients.. IMO

Poochie

[daniel green]

By claiming Murray's financial problems led him to compromise his medical judgment and ethics.

I can see judment, of course, but not his ethics. I just don't see that as part of any trial.

[warhorse46]

Then would you agree that since that is the case that some can actually call Murray a murderer since Jackson died by the hands of another or shall we wait until charges are pressed?



People can form what ever opinion they wish @ this or any other point in the case.

[daniel green]

Im not so sure it happens all the time.

I have seen cases out of California where Judges really held a pretty tight line when it came to bashing the victim of the crime. In fact I have heard Judges remind the defense attorney that the victim is not on trial.

imo

Oh, my goodness, why just look at the criminal case against MJ. You think that victim and his family was not put on trial? :scared:

[warhorse46]

Oh, my goodness, why just look at the criminal case against MJ. You think that victim and his family was not put on trial? :scared:



The Phil Spector & Robert Blake cases are prime examples of the victim being put on trial IMO.

[Firehead11]

Oh, my goodness, why just look at the criminal case against MJ. You think that victim and his family was not put on trial? :scared:

I don't believe that we should be arguing that case. If Coldwater gives the go ahead then things can be talked about.

But I disagree. GA was not put on trial in that case.

[Firehead11]

Don't people want to put on past behavior in Jackson's case also?

[Poochie Pie]

Oh, my goodness, why just look at the criminal case against MJ. You think that victim and his family was not put on trial? :scared: But wasn't he found "not guilty" daniel..?? wouldn't that judgement in itself suggest "that victim and his family" were not victims after all..??

Poochie

[daniel green]

I have to wonder if Nurse Lee will be changing her story since now Murray seems to be pointing a finger at her.

What will your opinion be if it is found out that Murray did indeed purchase the drug?

Not a peep outta Lee since she was served with that search warrant--same one served to Murray.

[daniel green]

But wasn't he found "not guilty" daniel..?? wouldn't that judgement in itself suggest "that victim and his family" were not victims after all..??

Poochie

And that might well be what happens if Murray were ever charged and goes to trial. Might be found not guilty and then what, you are going to say that MJ was not a victim after all? :confused:

[daniel green]

The Phil Spector & Robert Blake cases are prime examples of the victim being put on trial IMO.

I did not follow either case, WH, but just knowing all that was said about Bonnie L B, I know that had to have happened in that case. :sad:

[daniel green]

Just a reminder to us all that propofol alone was not what caused MJ's death. It was also the benzos.

[Imperfect4]

But wasn't he found "not guilty" daniel..?? wouldn't that judgement in itself suggest "that victim and his family" were not victims after all..??

Poochie

I think no matter how you slice it, the children involved were victimized by adults. No way can you put the kids in the same category as their parents, imo.

[ResJudicata]

Just a reminder to us all that propofol alone was not what caused MJ's death. It was also the benzos.


It was also the benzos that Murray administered to Michael, before he administered the propofol. The combination of various drugs caused his death.

[ResJudicata]

Oh, my goodness, why just look at the criminal case against MJ. You think that victim and his family was not put on trial? :scared:


If you consider exposing their web of lies as being put on trial, then I suppose they were.

[Poochie Pie]

And that might well be what happens if Murray were ever charged and goes to trial. Might be found not guilty and then what, you are going to say that MJ was not a victim after all? :confused: Not at all daniel.. sorry for the confusion... MJ was, and shall always remain a "victim" of Dr. Murray.. IMO.. Unless the Coroner's report is redacted, it shall always state "acute propofol intoxication".. as the initial cause of death.. Dr. Murray administered it.. He was present.. He knew the possible deadly repercussions of the drug.. If the Courts absolve him of any culpability in MJ's death, so be it.. It is my HONEST opinion that Dr. Murray never intended for MJ to die.. I believe he lost track of the situation and then subsequently panicked.. at Michael's expense, unfortunately... IMO

Poochie

[Poochie Pie]

I think no matter how you slice it, the children involved were victimized by adults. No way can you put the kids in the same category as their parents, imo. Absolutely agree, Imperfect..!! I did not mean to imply the children were in the same category.. I should have worded it better..

Poochie

[Emerald]

I have to wonder if Nurse Lee will be changing her story since now Murray seems to be pointing a finger at her.

What will your opinion be if it is found out that Murray did indeed purchase the drug?

My opinion is now, always has been and will forever be that MJ is gone. His children have lost their loving Father.

MJ chose to be drugged. For that he is responsible. If someone obtained and administered drugs illegally, for that they are responsible.

JMO

[Firehead11]

My opinion is now, always has been and will forever be that MJ is gone. His children have lost their loving Father.

MJ chose to be drugged. For that he is responsible. If someone obtained and administered drugs illegally, for that they are responsible.

JMO

Again, he paid the price. The question is, IF this goes to trial and it is proven that Murray did indeed administer the drugs that killed Jackson, what should Murray be given?

IMO, this is so much more that malpractice. This doctor was not trained to administer this drug. Do you think that just because he carried the title "Doctor" that he had the right to knock ANY patient out? Let alone knock them out for hours and leave the room?

Something is hinky. Didn't the chef state that Jackson usually ate lunch with the children and usually that was around 12-12:30?

[Imperfect4]

Absolutely agree, Imperfect..!! I did not mean to imply the children were in the same category.. I should have worded it better..

Poochie

No worries, PP. :wink:

I've just seen one too many posts on the subject of MJ in which the adolescent boys involved in the molestation charges were written about as though they were manipulative devils out to destroy their pop icon buddy. Adolescent boys are influenced and controlled by the adults in their lives. So whether those kids were victims of MJ or their parents or both, they were the truest victims. imo

[Poochie Pie]

No worries, PP. :wink:

I've just seen one too many posts on the subject of MJ in which the adolescent boys involved in the molestation charges were written about as though they were manipulative devils out to destroy their pop icon buddy. Adolescent boys are influenced and controlled by the adults in their lives. So whether those kids were victims of MJ's or their parents or both, they were the truest victims. imo Very well put, Imperfect... thanks for the reply..

Poochie

[SamSpade]

Jackson spent years chasing the white rabbit. He had it in the 90s and asked Nurse Lee to get it for him or recommend someone who could. imo

That will be brought up in the trial if there is one. imo

Murray gave him half of what he usually gave him that morning. Since Dirprivan was the last drug given, it is what pushed him over the edge. I believe that was the last thing Murray thought would happen or should have happened. moo

I believe Jackson swallowed something Murray knew nothing about. JMO

I believe there were higher levels in his system of the other drug then Murray said he gave him. The problem in a prosecution is who the jury will believe. Jackson took more of the other drug or Murray gave him more than he admitted to giving him. With Jackson's history of drug abuse and empty pill bottles found in that room, the defense has plenty to go on for reasonable doubt. IMO

Remember, we do not have the levels in Jackson because we do not have the tox report. We also have never seen Murray's statements. imo

[Poochie Pie]

Again, he paid the price. The question is, IF this goes to trial and it is proven that Murray did indeed administer the drugs that killed Jackson, what should Murray be given?

IMO, this is so much more that malpractice. This doctor was not trained to administer this drug. Do you think that just because he carried the title "Doctor" that he had the right to knock ANY patient out? Let alone knock them out for hours and leave the room?

Something is hinky. Didn't the chef state that Jackson usually ate lunch with the children and usually that was around 12-12:30? "Hinky" would be the word Firehead... I recall the same thing about lunch... You make a very good point re the title "Doctor"... IMO Dr. Murray was not all that familiar with propofol and it's administration.. He is a cardiologist I believe... NOT an anesthesiologist..!! There are different fields in the Medical profession for a reason... Dr. Murray was out of his "element"... He could have declined the "opportunity of a lifetime" once he saw what it entailed... He didn't, unfortunately... IMO

Poochie

[daniel green]

snipped
Something is hinky. Didn't the chef state that Jackson usually ate lunch with the children and usually that was around 12-12:30?

No, she did not.

[SamSpade]

"Hinky" would be the word Firehead... I recall the same thing about lunch... You make a very good point re the title "Doctor"... IMO Dr. Murray was not all that familiar with propofol and it's administration.. He is a cardiologist I believe... NOT an anesthesiologist..!! There are different fields in the Medical profession for a reason... Dr. Murray was out of his "element"... He could have declined the "opportunity of a lifetime" once he saw what it entailed... He didn't, unfortunately... IMO

Poochie

To assume Murray wasn't familiar with Diprivan is ridiculous. After all he did insert pacemakers and difribulators in patients hearts as a cardiologist. IMO

Other doctors use Diprivan in their practices and not just anesthesiologists. Even dentists. Diprivan is used in office settings.
imo

[daniel green]

snipped
Other doctors use Diprivan in their practices and not just anesthesiologists. Even dentists. Diprivan is used in office settings.
imo

Even nurses administer it in hospital settings.

[SamSpade]

To say Jackson needed Diprivan so he could sleep and that is the reason he wanted it so badly is something I will never believe. He was addicted to it and that's why he needed it. There was more going on there than poor Michael having a sleeping problem.

MOO of course.

[Cindylee]

To say Jackson needed Diprivan so he could sleep and that is the reason he wanted it so badly is something I will never believe. He was addicted to it and that's why he needed it. There was more going on there than poor Michael having a sleeping problem.

MOO of course.

Plus, many Dr.'s have said it isn't even a good sleep. Yes, you are knocked out, but you don't go into REM sleep.

[Firehead11]

To assume Murray wasn't familiar with Diprivan is ridiculous. After all he did insert pacemakers and difribulators in patients hearts as a cardiologist. IMO

Other doctors use Diprivan in their practices and not just anesthesiologists. Even dentists. Diprivan is used in office settings.
imo

Are you suggesting that while he inserted pacemakers and defibulators in his patients, he also administed the drugs that knocked his other patients out?

http://www.ismp.org/Newsletters/acutecare/articles/20051103.asp

Problem: Using propofol (DIPRIVAN) to sedate patients during endoscopic and other diagnostic procedures is gaining momentum in a growing number of hospitals, outpatient surgery centers, and physician offices.(1) In trained hands, propofol offers many advantages over other drugs used for sedation because it:
Has a rapid onset (about 40 seconds) and a short duration of action
Allows patients to wake up, recover, and return to baseline activities and diet sooner than some other sedation agents
Reduces the need for opioids, thus resulting in less nausea and vomiting.(2)
Trained nurses in most critical care settings often administer propofol safely to patients who are intubated and ventilated. However, some practitioners have been lulled into a false sense of security, allowing the drug's good safety profile to influence their beliefs that propofol is safer than it really is. In untrained hands, propofol can be dangerous, even deadly; administration to a nonventilated patient by a practitioner who is not trained in the use of drugs that can cause deep sedation and general anesthesia is not safe, even if the drug is given under the direct supervision of the physician performing the procedure.(2) After all, how much supervision can the physician provide if he or she is focused on the procedure itself? Not enough, as the following events show.

No reversal agent. Unlike other sedation agents (e.g., midazolam, morphine), there is no reversal agent for propofol. Adverse effects must be treated until the drug is metabolized.

Establish a continuous monitoring process and assessment criteria (e.g., vital signs, oxygen saturation, ideally capnography) for nonventilated patients who are receiving propofol. Ensure that equipment is readily accessible at the point of care to maintain a patent airway, provide oxygen, intubate, ventilate, and offer circulatory resuscitation.

[Poochie Pie]

To assume Murray wasn't familiar with Diprivan is ridiculous. After all he did insert pacemakers and difribulators in patients hearts as a cardiologist. IMO

Other doctors use Diprivan in their practices and not just anesthesiologists. Even dentists. Diprivan is used in office settings.
imo not ridiculous at all Sam... IMO.. My Dad had to get a pacemaker a year before he died... LOCAL ANESTHESIA was used.. (the area on his chest was numbed)... Only took a short time.. He was wide awake during the procedure.. I still say Dr. Murray was not familiar enough, or either he WAS and blinked when he shouldn't have... IMO thanks for the reply

Poochie

[daniel green]

Plus, many Dr.'s have said it isn't even a good sleep. Yes, you are knocked out, but you don't go into REM sleep.

It's not sleep. It's a coma.

[BOZGAL2]

To say Jackson needed Diprivan so he could sleep and that is the reason he wanted it so badly is something I will never believe. He was addicted to it and that's why he needed it. There was more going on there than poor Michael having a sleeping problem.

MOO of course.

Please explain why you feel Michael was addicted to Diprivan? I am confused as to how he would be addicted when you are out within 30 seconds. :confused:
Certainly no time to ENJOY A HIGH which is what fuels most drug addicts.

JMO

[SamSpade]

not ridiculous at all Sam... IMO.. My Dad had to get a pacemaker a year before he died... LOCAL ANESTHESIA was used.. (the area on his chest was numbed)... Only took a short time.. He was wide awake during the procedure.. I still say Dr. Murray was not familiar enough, or either he WAS and blinked when he shouldn't have... IMO thanks for the reply

Poochie

That may be what happened with your father, but my mother had two pacemakers installed in her life time. She was taken to surgery and it took over an hour. She was put out. No way the cardiologist did a local.

By the way, most of the time anesthesia is done by a nurse anesthetist. I was dumb founded to find out after surgery the actual anesthesiologist went between five different surgery suites checking on the five nurse anesthetists that day and all the surgeries were going on at the same time.

I've seen Murray's list of training and you can tell me until the cows come in he wasn't as trained in everything far better than a nurse and I will never believe that. JMO

He certainly would know more than a dentist also. jmo

[SamSpade]

Please explain why you feel Michael was addicted to Diprivan? I am confused as to how he would be addicted when you are out within 30 seconds. :confused:
Certainly no time to ENJOY A HIGH which is what fuels most drug addicts.

JMO

Someone's body can crave it. You don't have to feel a high or enjoy it. They need it so the body stops screaming for it. They need it so they don't hurt. imo

[BOZGAL2]

That may be what happened with your father, but my mother had two pacemakers installed in her life time. She was taken to surgery and it took over an hour. She was put out. No way the cardiologist did a local.

By the way, most of the time anesthesia is done by a nurse anesthetist. I was dumb founded to find out after surgery the actual anesthesiologist went between five different surgery suites checking on the five nurse anesthetists that day and all the surgeries were going on at the same time.

I've seen Murray's list of training and you can tell me until the cows come in he wasn't as trained in everything far better than a nurse and I will never believe that. JMO

He certainly would know more than a dentist also. jmo

They may utilize NA in your area but not around here. I have never had surgery without an Anesthesiologist. Even for certain procedures the Anesthesiologist was there not a NA.

And any reputable DR/Specialist will tell you they do not do that. At least the ones I see.

JMO

[Roxxanne]

Again, he paid the price. The question is, IF this goes to trial and it is proven that Murray did indeed administer the drugs that killed Jackson, what should Murray be given?

IMO, this is so much more that malpractice. This doctor was not trained to administer this drug. Do you think that just because he carried the title "Doctor" that he had the right to knock ANY patient out? Let alone knock them out for hours and leave the room?

Something is hinky. Didn't the chef state that Jackson usually ate lunch with the children and usually that was around 12-12:30?

Yes she said he usually had lunch with the children. Not sure what time they ate, but she was preparing it when the Dr came running downstairs that day after 12:00.

[ResJudicata]

Again, he paid the price. The question is, IF this goes to trial and it is proven that Murray did indeed administer the drugs that killed Jackson, what should Murray be given?

IMO, this is so much more that malpractice. This doctor was not trained to administer this drug. Do you think that just because he carried the title "Doctor" that he had the right to knock ANY patient out? Let alone knock them out for hours and leave the room?

Something is hinky. Didn't the chef state that Jackson usually ate lunch with the children and usually that was around 12-12:30?


Yes. I believe she did, and that is why she noticed something wasn't right when Michael didn't come down at the normal time.

[SamSpade]

They may utilize NA in your area but not around here. I have never had surgery without an Anesthesiologist. Even for certain procedures the Anesthesiologist was there not a NA.

And any reputable DR/Specialist will tell you they do not do that. At least the ones I see.

JMO

I certainly wouldn't count on that. With the amount of patients that have to be dealt with on a daily basis, it is done quite a lot in hospitals.

There was one hospital I was in that didn't do that, but most of them do now, especially if they are dealing with a large number of patients needing surgery at the same time.

No matter what the ones you see tell you, it is simply not true. By the way, when was the last time you asked that question?

I was in a very large reputable hospital. I don't go to quacks.

JMO

[ResJudicata]

snipped

I've seen Murray's list of training and you can tell me until the cows come in he wasn't as trained in everything far better than a nurse and I will never believe that. JMO

He certainly would know more than a dentist also. jmo


If that was the case, then his one and only patient wouldn't be dead.

Its...my opinion.

[SamSpade]

Yes. I believe she did, and that is why she noticed something wasn't right when Michael didn't come down at the normal time.

Nope, she was wondering why the doctor hadn't come down to get Jackson's breakfast much earlier. Nothing to do with lunch. imo

That had to do with Michael wanting and getting his "milk" around breakfast time. imo

[SamSpade]

If that was the case, then his one and only patient wouldn't be dead.

Its...my opinion.

Nope, I don't agree. Something else happened. Too bad we have no idea what that was. imo

[ResJudicata]

Nope, she was wondering why the doctor hadn't come down to get Jackson's breakfast much earlier. Nothing to do with lunch. imo

That had to do with Michael wanting and getting his "milk" around breakfast time. imo


Yes, she was wondering about breakfast as she was fixing lunch. But she did in fact say that Michael had both lunch and dinner with his children most every day.

Most days, she said, Jackson made a point of having both lunch and dinner with the children, Prince, 11-year-old Paris and 7-year-old Prince Michael II, known as Blanket, and each meal was preceded by Paris saying grace. After weeks of healthy food, she said she wrote Jackson a note with a suggestion

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/29/michael-jacksons-chef-rec_n_246771.html

[ResJudicata]

Nope, I don't agree. Something else happened. Too bad we have no idea what that was. imo


He gave too many other drugs to Michael, before the propofol. A toxic combination. Thats what happened.

[SamSpade]

He gave too many other drugs to Michael, before the propofol. A toxic combination. Thats what happened.

He had given him the same drugs before, on other days, and Diprivan too. He had even cut the amount of Diprivan this time. IMO

It was ruled a Homicide because on this day, it did push him over the edge. I still think Jackson took some extra of one of the other drugs in his system. The question would be if Jackson took the extra or if the doctor gave him more than he said he did. Who would the jury believe with Jackson's past as a drug addict? Reasonable doubt. IMO

We keep going over the same things day in and day out. I, for one, am getting very tired of it. JMO

[Imperfect4]

This isn't really new information, but it's from yesterday and is very informative, imo.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSEkpkBlh2G9xq40AVfdZLbF_KBgD9ARSLC80

Worth the read for those who missed it.

Thanks again to daniel for linking it yesterday.

[Roxxanne]

According to this

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/michael-jackson-probe-witness-to-testify-before-grand-jury-sources-say.html

[ResJudicata]

According to this

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/michael-jackson-probe-witness-to-testify-before-grand-jury-sources-say.html



Oh my... not a good sign for murray.

[Cindylee]

The new "signature" dance move that TMZ was talking about, is "The Penguin."
************

THE Sun can today reveal for the first time haunting footage of the King of Pop trying out his new "signature move".

The clip was filmed during rehearsals for Michael Jackson's This Is It comeback tour — and shows the star practicing the PENGUIN on stage.

The star had been putting the finishing touches to the show that was set to take London's O2 Arena by storm when he died on June 25.

The Sun last week arranged for Jacko impersonator and West End star Ricko Baird to perform the move.

Ricko, who is starring in Thriller Live at The Lyric in London's theatre-land, was amazed at how something so simple looking was so hard to pull off.

He said: "Michael was just so talented and he made it all look so easy.

Stunning

"Some of his moves like the Moonwalk - and now the Penguin - are actually very difficult and need a lot of practice."

Ricko appeared alongside Jacko himself on the 'Michael Jackson and Friends' tour as a lead dancer on the Dangerous dance number.

He also choreographed Michael's number one hit 'You Rock My World' and doubled for him in the video.

He had been planning to wow audiences with his new move - to be added to his famous repertoire of dance actions including the legendary Moonwalk, Anti-Gravity Lean, and Crotch Grab.

Footage of the historic moment has been sweeping video sharing website YouTube.

This latest clip, below, was revealed in the lead up to the worldwide release of a film detailing Jacko's rehearsals - which is said to give a privileged and private look at the Thriller sensation.

Film crews had followed the star from April until June as he prepared for the tour.

The movie is due to be shown in the UK on October 28, tickets will go on sale on September 27.

Click below to see Ricko Baird's impression of Jackson

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2649710/Leaked-Jackson-penguin-clip-is-a-web-hit.html

[daniel green]

Yes she said he usually had lunch with the children. Not sure what time they ate, but she was preparing it when the Dr came running downstairs that day after 12:00.

What she actually said is that Dr M would come down and get MJ his juice in the am. Not that MJ had lunch with the children.

[BOZGAL2]

I certainly wouldn't count on that. With the amount of patients that have to be dealt with on a daily basis, it is done quite a lot in hospitals.

There was one hospital I was in that didn't do that, but most of them do now, especially if they are dealing with a large number of patients needing surgery at the same time.

No matter what the ones you see tell you, it is simply not true. By the way, when was the last time you asked that question?

I was in a very large reputable hospital. I don't go to quacks.

JMO

Actually I have asked numerous Specialists since Michael's death. And I by no means shape or fashion see QUACKS. One of my DR'S is one of the most highly respected in his field in the country.

JMO

[Roxxanne]

What she actually said is that Dr M would come down and get MJ his juice in the am. Not that MJ had lunch with the children.

She said he usually ate lunch with the children.

[ResJudicata]

What she actually said is that Dr M would come down and get MJ his juice in the am. Not that MJ had lunch with the children.

umm, no.. this is what she said:



Most days, she said, Jackson made a point of having both lunch and dinner with the children, Prince, 11-year-old Paris and 7-year-old Prince Michael II, known as Blanket, and each meal was preceded by Paris saying grace. After weeks of healthy food, she said she wrote Jackson a note with a suggestion

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_246771.html

[daniel green]

She said he usually ate lunch with the children.

Oh, but of course. He came home at 1am, was given injectible drugs and anesthetics all night and then came down for healthy foods every day.

Of course.

[daniel green]

I certainly wouldn't count on that. With the amount of patients that have to be dealt with on a daily basis, it is done quite a lot in hospitals.

snipped

Oh, absolutely.

Not to mention that nurses give diprivan in hospitals.

[Imperfect4]

The new "signature" dance move that TMZ was talking about, is "The Penguin."

<snipped for space>

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2649710/Leaked-Jackson-penguin-clip-is-a-web-hit.html

Ah, okay. The arm movement I was concerned about yesterday makes much more sense now.

[flipflop]

The new "signature" dance move that TMZ was talking about, is "The Penguin."
************

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2649710/Leaked-Jackson-penguin-clip-is-a-web-hit.html

I am glad you posted this. I saw the clip on TMZ yesterday and read their comment that his footing was off. I did not notice it if it was.

I saw that crazy back and forth thing he did. I thought it looked ...odd. (I think the mashed potato looks dumb though) But regardless, of what I think of the "penguin" he didn't appear to be having a difficult time moving around. I thought he looked good.

Needless to say, I won't be learning that little dance move. LOL.

[Cindylee]

I am glad you posted this. I saw the clip on TMZ yesterday and read their comment that his footing was off. I did not notice it if it was.

I saw that crazy back and forth thing he did. I thought it looked ...odd. (I think the mashed potato looks dumb though) But regardless, of what I think of the "penguin" he didn't appear to be having a difficult time moving around. I thought he looked good.

Needless to say, I won't be learning that little dance move. LOL.

Me either. :laugh::scared:

[Roxxanne]

Oh, but of course. He came home at 1am, was given injectible drugs and anesthetics all night and then came down for healthy foods every day.

Of course.


According to the chef, he usually did.

[disneyfreak]

To assume Murray wasn't familiar with Diprivan is ridiculous. After all he did insert pacemakers and difribulators in patients hearts as a cardiologist. IMO

Other doctors use Diprivan in their practices and not just anesthesiologists. Even dentists. Diprivan is used in office settings.
imo
Dr. Murray is not a board certified Cardiologist. He did not have hospital privileges. If he was was doing these surgeries, he's even more unethical than I originally thought.

I don't know any dentist that uses Diprivan without proper training. Even my oral surgeon who had additional training in anesthesiology had an RN with him to monitor his patients while he did the dental work.

[disneyfreak]

I certainly wouldn't count on that. With the amount of patients that have to be dealt with on a daily basis, it is done quite a lot in hospitals.

There was one hospital I was in that didn't do that, but most of them do now, especially if they are dealing with a large number of patients needing surgery at the same time.

No matter what the ones you see tell you, it is simply not true. By the way, when was the last time you asked that question?

I was in a very large reputable hospital. I don't go to quacks.

JMO

The last time I asked that question was less than five years ago. My sister had emergency surgery. I asked the anesthesiologist if he would be there the entire time and he laughed while replying "Of course. I don't even leave to have a cup of coffee. I'm not negligent."He then explained the procedure if surgery ends up being so long he would have to use the restroom or felt he was uncomfortable continuing the procedure (for example, felt tired or dizzy). He would have a nurse go and get another anesthesiologist to take over before he would leave. This is a large trauma hospital BTW. They do everything from plastic surgery to state of the art cardiac surgery and transplants. Even have a helipad on the top of their building. HOWEVER, there is a local outpatient surgical center where there is only a specially trained nurse with the patient and the anesthesiologist goes between patients.

[ResJudicata]

My bold: You don't know that. He just didn't have hospital privileges at the UCLA Medical Center. He had privileges at other hospitals.

You are wrong. He lost his priveledges either in Las Vegas or Texas for failing to maintain patient records.

Its...my opinion, until I find the link.

[daniel green]

Um, don't penguins flap their wings up and down, not front to back? Looks like he was directing traffic to me. :wink:

Indeed. What a silly excuse this new penguin dance is. I read about it in several comments at TMZ yesteday, and who else but the tabloid The Sun would go on about it today! :rolleyes:

[disneyfreak]

My bold: You don't know that. He just didn't have hospital privileges at the UCLA Medical Center. He had privileges at other hospitals.Not as a cardiologist he didn't. That was my point.

[daniel green]

snipped HOWEVER, there is a local outpatient surgical center where there is only a specially trained nurse with the patient and the anesthesiologist goes between patients.

Most outpatient surgeries do that. Just like in-office plastic surgery, etc.

In fact, wasn't Kanye West's mother's death related to extensive plastic surgery performed in one of those centers?

[ResJudicata]

You are wrong. He lost his priveledges either in Las Vegas or Texas for failing to maintain patient records.

Its...my opinion, until I find the link.




According to the documents filed with the court, the search teams took into their possession computer hard drives, lists of contacts, letters from the IRS and the Texas Department of Public Safety. There was also a "suspension notice" from Doctors Hospital, a local acute care facility where Dr. Murray had privileges to practice
.


http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:vVZw4ZwwW3QJ:www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/breaking-news-michael-jacksons-doctor-officially-target-manslaughter+dr.+conrad+murray,+privilege,+hospita l&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[ResJudicata]

If you look at my post the operative word was HAD privileges. IIRC it was his father who lost privileges in Texas not Dr. Murray. However I could be mistaken.


I think suspension from a hospital pretty much means he has lost privilege to work in it,

[daniel green]

Adams was the plastic surgeon who performed breast augmentation surgery on Donda West, the mother of rapper Kanye West. Donda West died the day following her surgery, on November 10, 2007. There is speculation as to whether a pre-existing medical condition made it unsafe for her to undergo this procedure.[3] Physician Andre Aboolian had advised Donda West not to have surgery because she had higher risk due to a health condition that could lead to a heart attack.[4] The final coroner's report January 10, 2008 said Donda West died of "coronary artery disease and multiple post-operative factors due to or as a consequence of liposuction and mammoplasty."[5] Records also indicate that in 2001, two malpractice lawsuits against Adams ended in judgments of $217,337 and $250,000.[3]

On November 20, 2007, Adams walked off the set of Larry King Live while on the air, taking off his microphone and ear piece. He told Larry King he did not wish to answer any questions, citing a request by the West family for privacy. He said "I have a tremendous amount of love and respect for the West family. They asked me not to go on. And I've said from the very beginning, I don't have a side in this."[6] He returned to Larry King Live on January 22, 2008, stating he was there to "defend himself" rather than discuss the specifics of West's death. He claimed his business had been "almost destroyed" by the publicity surrounding the case, and took responsibility for multiple DUI offenses he had been charged with.[7].

On June 26, 2008, Adams was arrested again for DUI and for driving without a license in Solano County, California.[8] He pleaded no contest to one misdemeanor count of driving under the influence on January 7, 2009, and was sentenced to one year in jail.[9] On April 8, 2009, Adams surrendered his California medical license following his multiple convictions for alcohol-related offenses.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Adams

[ResJudicata]

If you wish to get technical a suspension is a temporary loss of privileges which means that he could have been reinstated under certain circumstances. :seeya:

I doubt that killing his only patient would be one of those "certain circumstances."

[SamSpade]

The last time I asked that question was less than five years ago. My sister had emergency surgery. I asked the anesthesiologist if he would be there the entire time and he laughed while replying "Of course. I don't even leave to have a cup of coffee. I'm not negligent."He then explained the procedure if surgery ends up being so long he would have to use the restroom or felt he was uncomfortable continuing the procedure (for example, felt tired or dizzy). He would have a nurse go and get another anesthesiologist to take over before he would leave. This is a large trauma hospital BTW. They do everything from plastic surgery to state of the art cardiac surgery and transplants. Even have a helipad on the top of their building. HOWEVER, there is a local outpatient surgical center where there is only a specially trained nurse with the patient and the anesthesiologist goes between patients.

I'm not going to argue over this anymore. I know what happened with me and I was in a major hospital for major surgery. It is being done exactly the way I said it was done in more and more hospitals. If you chose not to believe it, I don't care. Have a good night. I just stopped in for a quick post because this thread is repetitious and boring.

imo

[ResJudicata]

I'm not going to argue over this anymore. I know what happened with me and I was in a major hospital for major surgery. It is being done exactly the way I said it was done in more and more hospitals. If you chose not to believe it, I don't care. Have a good night. I just stopped in for a quick post because this thread is repetitious and boring.

imo


Bye bye, Sorry to see you leave. We will miss your posts.

[SamSpade]

Bye bye, Sorry to see you leave. We will miss your posts.

I didn't say I was leaving for good. I will be back from time to time if something is new.

[Imperfect4]

I didn't say I was leaving for good. I will be back from time to time if something is new.

Drop by anytime, Sam. :seeya:

[Emerald]

Plus, many Dr.'s have said it isn't even a good sleep. Yes, you are knocked out, but you don't go into REM sleep.


ITA, Cindylee. I've had day surgeries where I was completely knocked out. Don't know if they used Dipravan. I can say with authority that I NEVER woke rested and refreshed.:wink:

[Emerald]

Maybe the Diprivan was used as the 'kicker' to knock MJ out until the other drugs kicked in? Not an all-nighter as has predominately been discussed.

Until I know the real evidence, instead of all this piecemeal, I'm having a hard time deciding.

Other cases seem to make more sense to drwing conclusions.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

http://blog.taragana.com/e/2009/09/22/woman-connected-to-michael-jacksons-personal-doctor-ordered-to-testify-in-la-36038/

Woman connected to Jackson’s doc to testify

LOS ANGELES — A woman connected to Michael Jackson’s personal physician has been ordered to testify before a grand jury in Los Angeles.

Nicole Alvarez’s attorney, Joseph Low IV, confirmed that his client had received a subpoena to appear before the grand jury on Wednesday. He said he did not have any more details.

He also declined to characterize the relationship between Alvarez and Dr. Conrad.

[warhorse46]

Dr. Murray needs to be charged and held accountable in a court of law.
I didn't say by his 'peers' because I'm not sure how many crooked doctors they could locate to serve on the jury. Most doctors are honest and above board.
I would've given Murray the benefit of the doubt if he had just called 911 immediately, instead of placing personal calls for an hour while Michael lie there on the bed dying or dead.



That is a big stumbling point to me too. Dr M seems to have spent way too much time on trivial things such as phone calls & summoning Prince upstairs to get him to contact security. He had a cell phone, he could have & should have called 911 before he did anything else, IMO.

[Poochie Pie]

That is a big stumbling point to me too. Dr M seems to have spent way too much time on trivial things such as phone calls & summoning Prince upstairs to get him to contact security. He had a cell phone, he could have & should have called 911 before he did anything else, IMO. Thanks for weighing in on this warhorse..!! As I have said before.. THIS is the part that is unforgivable, IMO... You, more than most of us, know how important it is to summon immediate medical help for someone who is in life threatening distress..!! It is so sad to me that we will never know whether MJ could have been saved.... Probably sadder for his children and Family... It appears to me that Dr. Murray just panicked and ran around the house like a mad man.... He failed miserably as a Dr. and should be held accountable... IMO

Poochie

[warhorse46]

Thanks for weighing in on this warhorse..!! As I have said before.. THIS is the part that is unforgivable, IMO... You, more than most of us, know how important it is to summon immediate medical help for someone who is in life threatening distress..!! It is so sad to me that we will never know whether MJ could have been saved.... Probably sadder for his children and Family... It appears to me that Dr. Murray just panicked and ran around the house like a mad man.... He failed miserably as a Dr. and should be held accountable... IMO

Poochie



Everyone in the medical profession is taught basic cpr & the second thing you do after assessing that the person is not breathing & has no heart beat is CALL 911! By no means should the rescuer make any other phone calls or leave the victim unless it is to call 911 if a phone is not within arm's length.

[daniel green]

Everyone in the medical profession is taught basic cpr & the second thing you do after assessing that the person is not breathing & has no heart beat is CALL 911! By no means should the rescuer make any other phone calls or leave the victim unless it is to call 911 if a phone is not within arm's length.

It certainly is. But that doesn't make it a criminal matter.

He obviously had to get things in order before medics and police would get there.

[ResJudicata]

It certainly is. But that doesn't make it a criminal matter.

He obviously had to get things in order before medics and police would get there.


You got that right! He had to call his office and instruct his staff to remove and hide stored medical records. He had to call whoever else he needed to call, which was to benefit him, not Michael. And then finally, after 47 minutes, he called for help. All the while either Michael wasn't breathing, or was already dead.

I think it is the getting his things in order which largely makes this a criminal matter.

[Firehead11]

It certainly is. But that doesn't make it a criminal matter.

He obviously had to get things in order before medics and police would get there.


Pray tell what things he had to get in order before medics and police arrived. Inquiring minds want to know.

[flipflop]

New Michael Jackson Song to Be Released Oct. 12

While Michael Jackson may be gone, his legacy and music continue to live on, both through his existing work and new, never before heard music — Michael’s single “This Is It” will be released on Oct. 12.

http://www.okmagazine.com/2009/09/new-michael-jackson-song-to-be-released-oct-12/

[Unperson1984]

You got that right! He had to call his office and instruct his staff to remove and hide stored medical records. He had to call whoever else he needed to call, which was to benefit him, not Michael. And then finally, after 47 minutes, he called for help. All the while either Michael wasn't breathing, or was already dead.

I think it is the getting his things in order which largely makes this a criminal matter.

I thought the call to Texas was at sometime around 9 AM. Texas time or California time, that's too early to be related to MJ's crisis.

[LadyFuzz]

Everyone in the medical profession is taught basic cpr & the second thing you do after assessing that the person is not breathing & has no heart beat is CALL 911! By no means should the rescuer make any other phone calls or leave the victim unless it is to call 911 if a phone is not within arm's length.

He didn't make any other phone calls. He didn't know the address. His cell phone would not have checked back to the address he was at. There was no other phone in Jackson's room or upstairs. He was yelling for security who weren't around. Were was everyone?? How much was Jackson paying for security who were not around when needed???

IMO of course

[LadyFuzz]

When did this case go before the Grand Jury? It was never announced that was happening right? I guess the detective took it there because the DA doesn't even have the case yet. Just saying........ imo

[Firehead11]

He didn't make any other phone calls. He didn't know the address. His cell phone would not have checked back to the address he was at. There was no other phone in Jackson's room or upstairs. He was yelling for security who weren't around. Were was everyone?? How much was Jackson paying for security not be around when needed???

IMO of course

According to the search warrant, he did make three cell phone calls. The records show this. (That address bit sounds like a Taz excuse)
There was a phone in Jackson's room, which worked, I have to find that link.
He went downstairs yelling for Prince Michael to be summoned.
And we know that Jackson was paying $150,000 to a doctor who wasn't around his only patient when he was needed.

[daniel green]

When did this case go before the Grand Jury? It was never announced that was happening right? I guess the detective took it there because the DA doesn't even have the case yet. Just saying........ imo

TMZ had an update yesterday saying there was no grand jury but since the g/f was unwilling to talk to police they were telling her she would go before a GJ.

[Imperfect4]

He didn't make any other phone calls. He didn't know the address. His cell phone would not have checked back to the address he was at. There was no other phone in Jackson's room or upstairs. He was yelling for security who weren't around. Were was everyone?? How much was Jackson paying for security who were not around when needed???

IMO of course

According to the chef, Kai Chase, Murray came downstairs from his resuscitation attempts yelling for Prince to alert security. According to reports from other "insiders" (a former chef, IIRC), Prince was in a "leadership role" in the household. I also recall reading somewhere (and I haven't a clue where) that Prince's leadership role might've included being the only one other than MJ who could summon security. Now that sounds illogical in general, but perhaps it had to do with summoning security to MJ's bedroom or other private quarters. Perhaps only MJ or Prince could summon anyone at all to MJ's personal area of the house. That would fit with other reports from his Neverland days that MJ had very high security (locks, alarms) for his personal area there.

:shrug:

[daniel green]

snipped
And we know that Jackson was paying $150,000 to a doctor who wasn't around his only patient when he was needed.

What difference does it make that he was going to pay him a nickle or 150K a month?

NONE.

BTW, as per usual, MJ did not pay the doctor during the 6 wks.

What I think it does say is that hiring a consierge doc to give put one in a drug-induced coma night after night is expensive.

[Imperfect4]

What difference does it make that he was going to pay him a nickle or 150K a month?

NONE.

BTW, as per usual, MJ did not pay the doctor during the 6 wks.

What I think it does say is that hiring a consierge doc to give put one in a drug-induced coma night after night is expensive.

... and carries with it the same risks any substance abuser signs up for.

[Firehead11]

What difference does it make that he was going to pay him a nickle or 150K a month?

NONE.

BTW, as per usual, MJ did not pay the doctor during the 6 wks.

What I think it does say is that hiring a consierge doc to give put one in a drug-induced coma night after night is expensive.


I noticed that you didn't ask what difference did it make what security was being paid.

Why Not?

[ResJudicata]

I thought the call to Texas was at sometime around 9 AM. Texas time or California time, that's too early to be related to MJ's crisis.


Its only too early if you believe Murray's account that he found Michael not breathing at 11:00 am. I think Michael was dead before the flurry of calls were made by Murray.

[disneyfreak]

I'm not going to argue over this anymore. I know what happened with me and I was in a major hospital for major surgery. It is being done exactly the way I said it was done in more and more hospitals. If you chose not to believe it, I don't care. Have a good night. I just stopped in for a quick post because this thread is repetitious and boring.

imo

Sam, I really do enjoy your posts. I was not trying to demean your experience. In fact, I was trying to say that what I know from the surgical center is that what you wrote about is very true. It is scary and concerns me.

Again, I didn't mean to chase you off.

[ResJudicata]

TMZ had an update yesterday saying there was no grand jury but since the g/f was unwilling to talk to police they were telling her she would go before a GJ.


I don't think they were just telling her that.

Prosecutors investigating Michael Jackson's death have called the girlfriend of the singer's personal doctor to testify before a grand jury today, according to the woman's lawyer and sources familiar with the matter.

The Los Angeles County district attorney's office is asking the grand jury only to take testimony from Nicole Alvarez and that the panel is not being asked "at this time" to determine whether Dr. Conrad Murray should be charged with a crime, the sources said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson23-2009sep23,0,1095679.story

[daniel green]

This development does not mean the Grand Jury will decide whether to charge Dr. Murray with the death of Jackson -- this is merely an investigative tool law enforcement sometimes uses with uncooperative witnesses.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/page/3/#ixzz0RxiOVdRI

[ResJudicata]

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/page/3/#ixzz0RxiOVdRI


Thats right. Its a one sided investigative tool, which I have historically believed to be unfair to a suspect or defendant. Its done in secret and kept secret until a judge rules to unseal it.

[Unperson1984]

Its only too early if you believe Murray's account that he found Michael not breathing at 11:00 am. I think Michael was dead before the flurry of calls were made by Murray.

You don't seriously believe MJ was dead by 9AM do you?

[ResJudicata]

You don't seriously believe MJ was dead by 9AM do you?


I think its a very real possibility.

[Eagleeye]

You don't seriously believe MJ was dead by 9AM do you?

You didn't ask me but absolutely, sometime between 9:00 and 11:00 am. Remember, Dr. Murray didn't come down for MJ's breakfast as usual at 9:30 am. He was busy covering his rear end. Why do you think he got out of Dodge for a couple days and then lawyer'd up?

[Unperson1984]

You didn't ask me but absolutely, sometime between 9:00 and 11:00 am. Remember, Dr. Murray didn't come down for MJ's breakfast as usual at 9:30 am. He was busy covering his rear end. Why do you think he got out of Dodge for a couple days and then lawyer'd up?

There are quite significant changes which take place in the first three hours after death, I find it difficult to believe the ER doctors at UCLA wouldn't have noticed any of them. Especially given the hot room MJ was found in considering heat accelerates the changes

I've post links to several forensic web sites. One of the most obvious changes is to the eye, it becomes very cloudy with a milky appearance.

[who_is_it]

You got that right! He had to call his office and instruct his staff to remove and hide stored medical records. He had to call whoever else he needed to call, which was to benefit him, not Michael. And then finally, after 47 minutes, he called for help. All the while either Michael wasn't breathing, or was already dead.

I think it is the getting his things in order which largely makes this a criminal matter.

Once somebody posted an autopsy can't reveal the EXACT death time. This would be interesting. It could be Michael was dead immediately, it could that an immediate 911 call could have saved his life.

I ask myself:

IF there had been any REAL chance to save Michael do you think Dr. Murray would have risked to be charged of homicide instead of being charged of administering drugs? Would he really had tried to clean up the scene first? I don't think so.

Imo Dr. Murray would have called 911 immediately if he had seen a realistic chance to save Michael's life. Also from his selfish point of view the consequences of his death are worse than the consequences of a not cleaned up scene and the drug thing.

[who_is_it]

You didn't ask me but absolutely, sometime between 9:00 and 11:00 am. Remember, Dr. Murray didn't come down for MJ's breakfast as usual at 9:30 am. He was busy covering his rear end. Why do you think he got out of Dodge for a couple days and then lawyer'd up?

I also think he could have been dead at breakfast time.

I just wonder why Michael usually had his breakfast at 9:30 am already. He always went to sleep very late at night -- in the morning hours.

[Eagleeye]

There are quite significant changes which take place in the first three hours after death, I find it difficult to believe the ER doctors at UCLA wouldn't have noticed any of them. Especially given the hot room MJ was found in considering heat accelerates the changes

I've post links to several forensic web sites. One of the most obvious changes is to the eye, it becomes very cloudy with a milky appearance.

UP, respectfully this has been discussed more times on this board than I can remember. You have posted links, I have posted links as well as some others who are professionals. I don't think at this point it is arguable any longer nor is it productive to the conversation. The fact is that MJ is dead. How he got that way is not up to us but the Medical Examiner who will when the time is right inform the public at large when, how and why MJ died. To do anything else is pure speculation at this point and is pointless. We have all made our points about this and that is most likely the reason this thread is winding down to a crawl.

[who_is_it]

I don't know if this was posted already:
"Cops Think Murray Shacked Up with Baby Mama"

"Law enforcement sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray'sbaby mama will testify before the L.A. County Grand Jury tomorrow at 11:00 AM.

Nicole Alvarez, the mother of Dr. Murray's 7th child, has not been cooperative with LAPD detectives. We have already reported that we have heard Dr. Murray was living with Alvarez during the time he was supposedly staying with Jackson. Law enforcement sources tell us they believe Dr. Murray was living with Alvarez but have not been able to confirm it.

If Dr. Murray was regularly around Alvarez during that critical time, she may have information that could be highly relevant to the investigation.

Our sources say there is nothing specific they're after when Alvarez goes before the Grand Jury. As one source put it, it's more of an "exploratory" exercise."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/22/cops-think-dr-conrad-murray-nicole-alvarez-shacked-up-michael-jackson/

That would so incredibly reckless... - I'm missing words!

[Imperfect4]

I don't know if this was posted already:
"Cops Think Murray Shacked Up with Baby Mama"

"Law enforcement sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray'sbaby mama will testify before the L.A. County Grand Jury tomorrow at 11:00 AM.

Nicole Alvarez, the mother of Dr. Murray's 7th child, has not been cooperative with LAPD detectives. We have already reported that we have heard Dr. Murray was living with Alvarez during the time he was supposedly staying with Jackson. Law enforcement sources tell us they believe Dr. Murray was living with Alvarez but have not been able to confirm it.

If Dr. Murray was regularly around Alvarez during that critical time, she may have information that could be highly relevant to the investigation.

Our sources say there is nothing specific they're after when Alvarez goes before the Grand Jury. As one source put it, it's more of an "exploratory" exercise."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/22/cops-think-dr-conrad-murray-nicole-alvarez-shacked-up-michael-jackson/

That would so incredibly reckless... - I'm missing words!

Reckless? I think you might've misread the tmz.com article?

"Shacked up with" simply means lived with in this context, imo. I think LE is interested in Alvarez because Murray was living with her while in MJ's employ.

I don't think they are alleging Murray was with Alvarez on the morning MJ died, if that's what you're calling "reckless."

:confused:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

UP, respectfully this has been discussed more times on this board than I can remember. You have posted links, I have posted links as well as some others who are professionals. I don't think at this point it is arguable any longer nor is it productive to the conversation. The fact is that MJ is dead. How he got that way is not up to us but the Medical Examiner who will when the time is right inform the public at large when, how and why MJ died. To do anything else is pure speculation at this point and is pointless. We have all made our points about this and that is most likely the reason this thread is winding down to a crawl.

Eagleeye..I think you have summed it up pretty well...most have made up their minds already..and until we all get the "Facts" like in a courtroom..no one is willing to give an inch!...

It kinda makes me chuckle how non-medical "Acute Care Professionals" would assume what goes on in the minds of Rescurers and ER personel..No one really knows just what goes in "Resuscitation Rooms" unless you have been a participant..many many times over....especially when the patient is a famous individual..or a family member screams to bring them back..or in "This case" the attending physician demands "Pull out all the Stops" to Resuscitate"?????????? Allways makes me scratch my head...

I have worked on the gammit..fresh to not so fresh..victims...and no one stops until "Time is Called"..no one questions the wisdoms of it..and no one regrets..(unless of course you have a personal aversion to abuse of a human body..which can always surface after the fact)..but at the time...the objective is to bring back....and that is all I will say about that....

LMS:blushing:

[daniel green]

... and carries with it the same risks any substance abuser signs up for.

Exactly.

I have no idea why the cost of it is of any importance. Especially when MJ did not pay the doctor.

I mean, compared to the pharmacy bills, Dr M's monthly fee for being a concierge doc to provide anesthesia at home is not that high.

[Imperfect4]

Eagleeye..I think you have summed it up pretty well...most have made up their minds already..and until we all get the "Facts" like in a courtroom..no one is willing to give an inch!...

It kinda makes me chuckle how non-medical "Acute Care Professionals" would assume what goes on in the minds of Rescurers and ER personel..No one really knows just what goes in "Resuscitation Rooms" unless you have been a participant..many many times over....especially when the patient is a famous individual..or a family member screams to bring them back..or in "This case" the attending physician demands "Pull out all the Stops" to Resuscitate"?????????? Allways makes me scratch my head...

I have worked on the gammit..fresh to not so fresh..victims...and no one stops until "Time is Called"..no one questions the wisdoms of it..and no one regrets..(unless of course you have a personal aversion to abuse of a human body..which can always surface after the fact)..but at the time...the objective is to bring back....and that is all I will say about that....

LMS:blushing:

Lynda -- have you ever been a part of, or heard of, a situation in which a body dead for just shy of 4 hours was "worked on" in the ER in the hopes of bringing the deceased back to life?

[Imperfect4]

Exactly.

I have no idea why the cost of it is of any importance. Especially when MJ did not pay the doctor.

I mean, compared to the pharmacy bills, Dr M's monthly fee for being a concierge doc to provide anesthesia at home is not that high.

Who the doctor was in this case (a cardiologist? why a cardiologist?) ...

where he came from (Vegas and Texas? why not California or London?) ...

how he knew the "patient" (indeed -- how did MJ know to ask this particular doctor to fill a decidedly shady role?) ...

what his duties were (work 3rd shift administering whatever drugs his client requested) ...

and his impressive monthly salary ($150K? a month?) should be clear indication to anyone paying attention that something was rotten in Denmark.

How anyone anticipated a "normal" doctor-patient relationship, or anything remotely resembling "normal" coming out of that relationship is beyond me. :blink:

[ResJudicata]

It simply doesn't happen.

Maybe it does when the personal physician keeps insisting that the patient is still alive. If Murray had told the truth about the timeline, there wouldn't be the mystery regarding time of death.

Its ....my opinion.

[daniel green]

Eagleeye..I think you have summed it up pretty well...most have made up their minds already..and until we all get the "Facts" like in a courtroom..no one is willing to give an inch!...

It kinda makes me chuckle how non-medical "Acute Care Professionals" would assume what goes on in the minds of Rescurers and ER personel..No one really knows just what goes in "Resuscitation Rooms" unless you have been a participant..many many times over....especially when the patient is a famous individual..snipped:

Not as much of a chuckle as incorrect "medical" information, I can assure you. :wink:

The facts will not be any different at trial. The time of death is on the death certificate. That will not change.

C'mon, already. People are declared DOA at hospitals. UCLA medical center ER docs would not have been telling the EMTS about stabilizing MJ for transport nor would they be working on him for over an hour if he had been DOA.

Period.

[daniel green]

snipped
How anyone anticipated a "normal" doctor-patient relationship, or anything remotely resembling "normal" coming out of that relationship is beyond me. :blink:

NO KIDDING. :tongueside:

Then we shall get the same old meme about not having the right "equipment" to administer diprivan safely. Ya think????? :ohmy:
Helloooooooooooo. He was hired to do this at a rented house. To give injectible benzos and at least two kinds of anesthesia--versed and dirprivan--to his client night after night after night, for weeks.

[ResJudicata]

Not as much of a chuckle as incorrect "medical" information, I can assure you. :wink:

The facts will not be any different at trial. The time of death is on the death certificate. That will not change.

C'mon, already. People are declared DOA at hospitals. UCLA medical center ER docs would not have been telling the EMTS about stabilizing MJ for transport nor would they be working on him for over an hour if he had been DOA.

Period.



If Murray reported to the police that he noticed MJ not breathing at 11:00 am, and they didnt get to the hospital until 12:30 pm, at what point did MJ start breathing again in between 11:00 and the time he arrived at the hospital? I don't remember seeing anything about successfully rescusitating him. Can people live without oxygen for 1.5 hours?

[daniel green]

Maybe it does when the personal physician keeps insisting that the patient is still alive. If Murray had told the truth about the timeline, there wouldn't be the mystery regarding time of death.

Its ....my opinion.

There is no mystery about the time of death. None.

It's right there on the death certificate.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Lynda -- have you ever been a part of, or heard of, a situation in which a body dead for just shy of 4 hours was "worked on" in the ER in the hopes of bringing the deceased back to life?


Yes..in that we/me and others have worked on patients who arrive and there is no medical history on just when and what happened to the individual..sometimes we knew theere was no hope..and it still didnt stop us from trying....especially when children or babies or young people were involved....It is just "What we Do" and in my case DID for decades...No One wants to give up..and where MJ was concerned..being famous and having a physician on scene..NO ONE questions the wisdom especially when told information or demanded to do something...

I have nver ever experienced anyone being brought back V/S gone hours save the "Hypothermic"..extreme cold..like falling thru ice..or found Dead in snow bank..etc..and I have heard of survivals in those cases..just not myself personally...Not that we didnt try our darndest!!

LMS

[ResJudicata]

NO KIDDING. :tongueside:

Then we shall get the same old meme about not having the right "equipment" to administer diprivan safely. Ya think????? :ohmy:
Helloooooooooooo. He was hired to do this at a rented house. To give injectible benzos and at least two kinds of anesthesia--versed and dirprivan--to his client night after night after night, for weeks.



Was Murray incapable of saying NO, its far to dangerous? Or did he say yes, because it was a "once in a lifetime deal"?

[ResJudicata]

There is no mystery about the time of death. None.

It's right there on the death certificate.


Maybe not to you there isn't.


According to a new report by TMZ citing law enforcement sources, the L.A. County Coroner’s office is having a hard time pinpointing the time of Michael Jackson’s death, and aren’t too sure about Dr. Conrad Murray’s story detailing that morning’s events either.

Paramedics say when they arrived they believed he had been dead for an hour, or maybe more. Dr. Murray’s statement indicates that he administered Propofol to Michael at 10:40 a.m. and left 10 minutes later for the bathroom. When he returned two minutes after that, he found Michael wasn’t breathing. However he didn’t have anyone call 911 until 12:21 p.m., an hour and a half later.

TMZ’s sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray’s timeline, and that when he was interviewed, his story seemed “scripted.”

http://www.okmagazine.com/2009/08/michael-jacksons-time-of-death-a-mystery/

[daniel green]

Lyndawitha"Y;13503247]Yes..in that we/me and others have worked on patients who arrive and there is no medical history on just when and what happened to the individual..sometimes we knew theere was no hope..snipped/

How very strange. ER physicians not calling a DOA if the patient arrives at the hospital dead?

Dead on arrival or DOA is a notation that a patient was brought to a hospital and immediately pronounced dead by a physician. THAT is what happens.

[daniel green]

Yes..in that we/me and others have worked on patients who arrive and there is no medical history on just when and what happened to the individual..sometimes we knew theere was no hope..and it still didnt stop us from trying....especially when children or babies or young people were involved....snipped

Really? Nurses working to revive someone who had been dead almost 4 hours? I truly don't believe that.

[ResJudicata]

How very strange. ER physicians not calling a DOA if the patient arrives at the hospital dead?

Dead on arrival or DOA is a notation that a patient was brought to a hospital and immediately pronounced dead by a physician. THAT is what happens.



Paramedics say when they arrived they believed he had been dead for an hour, or maybe more.

http://www.okmagazine.com/2009/08/mi...ath-a-mystery/

[Imperfect4]

Yes..in that we/me and others have worked on patients who arrive and there is no medical history on just when and what happened to the individual..sometimes we knew theere was no hope..and it still didnt stop us from trying....especially when children or babies or young people were involved....It is just "What we Do" and in my case DID for decades...No One wants to give up..and where MJ was concerned..being famous and having a physician on scene..NO ONE questions the wisdom especially when told information or demanded to do something...

I have nver ever experienced anyone being brought back V/S gone hours save the "Hypothermic"..extreme cold..like falling thru ice..or found Dead in snow bank..etc..and I have heard of survivals in those cases..just not myself personally...Not that we didnt try our darndest!!

LMS

Thanks for your response. Let me edit my question a bit. If, as Unperson has noted and linked sources to, a dead body goes through certain changes in the 3 hours after death that clearly signal death, and there was no fall or other injury or a cold climate (just the opposite, apparently, according to what we've read about the temperature in MJ's quarters) to consider ... given those circumstances, would you expect an ER team to simply follow the "orders" of Murray and work on a clearly dead-for-three-hours body? Even if it was a celebrity?

Because I'm reading posts here about MJ having died as early as 9am California time, which means he arrived at the hospital in the neighborhood of 1pm, dead for 4 hours. Given the circumstances we assume around the condition of MJ at 4 hours dead in a very warm room, how likely is it that ER docs would try to bring him back to life?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

How very strange. ER physicians not calling a DOA if the patient arrives at the hospital dead?

Dead on arrival or DOA is a notation that a patient was brought to a hospital and immediately pronounced dead by a physician. THAT is what happens.

Pls daniel..dont claim what happens in the minds of acute care givers..and as to TOD..that is up to the Coroner or ME..not the ER physician..they call the Time when they stop resuscitation..NO MORE NO LESS....ER personnel do not have the time nor inclination to investigate deaths...we had to leave it to the "Authorities"....and yep I have testiied at "Inquests"..and Yep..Many persons rescuscitated had been actually DEAD for hours...and that does not stop attempts...

BTW..It really would have helped if ALL Medical HX had of been told to the staff there..like the "Boatload" of Drugs Dr. Murray had given to the Patient....

Please never try to tell me what I should have done or should not have done in my role of HC in ER..much as you are attempting to ascert what is in the minds of us...Yikes!!

LMS:sneaky:

[PointQueen]

Pls daniel..dont claim what happens in the minds of acute care givers..and as to TOD..that is up to the Coroner or ME..not the ER physician..they call the Time when they stop resuscitation..NO MORE NO LESS....ER personnel do not have the time nor inclination to investigate deaths...we had to leave it to the "Authorities"....and yep I have testiied at "Inquests"..and Yep..Many persons rescuscitated had been actually DEAD for hours...and that does not stop attempts...

BTW..It really would have helped if ALL Medical HX had of been told to the staff there..like the "Boatload" of Drugs Dr. Murray had given to the Patient....

Please never try to tell me what I should have done or should not have done in my role of HC in ER..much as you are attempting to ascert what is in the minds of us...Yikes!!

LMS:sneaky:

The coroner accepts the time of death as it is called in the ER in cases such as this. imo

Did you see the death certificate?