Michael Jackson 9/16

[flipflop]

Jackson Probe Coming in for a Landing

Posted Sep 16th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the Michael Jackson homicide case will be presented to the L.A. County District Attorney in 3 to 4 weeks.

We're told the lion's share of the investigation has been completed and Dr. Conrad Murray remains the singular target. Our sources say LAPD detectives have requested opinions from several medical experts who will analyze the evidence and offer their opinions on Dr. Murray's conduct.

The medical experts are supposed to submit their finding in 2 to 3 weeks and we're told detectives need an additional week to assemble their evidence before they make a formal presentation to the D.A.

Law enforcement sources also say an arrest will not be made before Dr. Murray is charged with a crime -- of course that assumes he will be charged.

The case is complicated by the fact that Jackson had been taking various medications, even though the evidence is compelling that Propofol was the direct cause of Jackson's death.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RHFwRM5t

[warhorse46]

and there ya have it, "the fact that Jackson had been taking various medications"



IIRC it is the combination of drugs that Murray admits to administering that is the cause of death not just one drug.

[warhorse46]

I'm just waiting....rather impatiently...for the full autopsy and tox panel to be released.


Very true, without that we cannot make an informed opinion, we can only speculate.

[PointQueen]

and there ya have it, "the fact that Jackson had been taking various medications"

Yes, there you have it. Just as some of us have been posting all along. I can't wait either for the autopsy report and tox screen. imo

Now we know the hold up on charges being filed and the doctor being arrested. imo

[PointQueen]

IIRC it is the combination of drugs that Murray admits to administering that is the cause of death not just one drug.

snipped


We're told the lion's share of the investigation has been completed and Dr. Conrad Murray remains the singular target. Our sources say LAPD detectives have requested opinions from several medical experts who will analyze the evidence and offer their opinions on Dr. Murray's conduct.
_________________________________________________


It looks to me like they are looking at the conduct of administration of the drug and not so much the contents of the drugs given. jmo

[Eagleeye]

Very true, without that we cannot make an informed opinion, we can only speculate.


An opinion is a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. :wink:

The Value of an Informed Opinion

What is the value of an opinion? In a world devoid of absolute certainty, everyone’s beliefs have at least a miniscule possibility of being true. While I do not accept that any beliefs are absolutely true or absolutely false, some opinions have more validity — that is, more probability of being correct — than others. These are the informed opinions: those based on observation, rational consideration, and knowledge of the relevant background material.

Whose opinions are more informed than others? In general, anyone who possesses a lot of knowledge of the background material for a certain event or situation and who has devoted considerable time and effort to observing and analyzing that event or situation. Anyone can fit these criteria, from blog readers to the President of the United States. But in particular, people who are professionals in a field with relevance to the particular situation are uniquely suited to opine publicly on the issue. Their background comes with certifiable credentials; in the course of pursuing their daily occupation, they have imbibed enough of the background material and considered enough of the issues that they are qualified, without compromising their professional disinterestedness in their daily work, to present their informed opinions to the public.

http://progressivehistorians.wordpress.com/2007/10/06/the-value-of-informed-opinion/

[Firehead11]

Yes, there you have it. Just as some of us have been posting all along. I can't wait either for the autopsy report and tox screen. imo

Now we know the hold up on charges being filed and the doctor being arrested. imo

The case is complicated by the fact that Jackson had been taking various medications, even though the evidence is compelling that Propofol was the direct cause of Jackson's death.


Just like some of us have been saying all along.

[PointQueen]

I think the point is the state is going to need experts to testify in court to get a conviction. There will be experts, of course, to counter that testimony. I still believe there is not enough to charge Dr Murray and get a conviction. jmo

[warhorse46]

Yes, there you have it. Just as some of us have been posting all along. I can't wait either for the autopsy report and tox screen. imo

Now we know the hold up on charges being filed and the doctor being arrested. imo


Exactly as I said, the police are taking it slow, investigating very thoroughly, crossing all ts & dotting all is before presenting the case to the DA so they will have as solid of a case as possible. It has only been a few weeks, what is the rush? Give the police time to do their job well!

[warhorse46]

snipped


We're told the lion's share of the investigation has been completed and Dr. Conrad Murray remains the singular target. Our sources say LAPD detectives have requested opinions from several medical experts who will analyze the evidence and offer their opinions on Dr. Murray's conduct.
_________________________________________________


It looks to me like they are looking at the conduct of administration of the drug and not so much the contents of the drugs given. jmo


That could be a major factor. Not so much the amount of drugs given but the combination & route of administration.

[PointQueen]

Exactly as I said, the police are taking it slow, investigating very thoroughly, crossing all ts & dotting all is before presenting the case to the DA so they will have as solid of a case as possible. It has only been a few weeks, what is the rush? Give the police time to do their job well!

Either they have it or they don't. If they are waiting for expert opinions, which we know are a dime a dozen, the case is shaky at best. imo

[warhorse46]

An opinion is a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. :wink:

The Value of an Informed Opinion

What is the value of an opinion? In a world devoid of absolute certainty, everyone’s beliefs have at least a miniscule possibility of being true. While I do not accept that any beliefs are absolutely true or absolutely false, some opinions have more validity — that is, more probability of being correct — than others. These are the informed opinions: those based on observation, rational consideration, and knowledge of the relevant background material.

Whose opinions are more informed than others? In general, anyone who possesses a lot of knowledge of the background material for a certain event or situation and who has devoted considerable time and effort to observing and analyzing that event or situation. Anyone can fit these criteria, from blog readers to the President of the United States. But in particular, people who are professionals in a field with relevance to the particular situation are uniquely suited to opine publicly on the issue. Their background comes with certifiable credentials; in the course of pursuing their daily occupation, they have imbibed enough of the background material and considered enough of the issues that they are qualified, without compromising their professional disinterestedness in their daily work, to present their informed opinions to the public.

http://progressivehistorians.wordpress.com/2007/10/06/the-value-of-informed-opinion/




Great description. The problem is we don't possess a lot of knowledge of the background material of this event yet. I am a woman so I am going to reserve the old adage of changing my mind as more information is available.

[Imperfect4]

snipped


We're told the lion's share of the investigation has been completed and Dr. Conrad Murray remains the singular target. Our sources say LAPD detectives have requested opinions from several medical experts who will analyze the evidence and offer their opinions on Dr. Murray's conduct.
_________________________________________________


It looks to me like they are looking at the conduct of administration of the drug and not so much the contents of the drugs given. jmo

This latest news makes perfect sense to me. Drugs act and interact differently depending on the person, and when you factor in a "patient" who has an abnormally high tolerance for certain substances due to his overuse of them, it gets even more complicated.

So charging Murray for the drugs he administered to MJ may require that a sufficient number of other medical professionals agree he was negligent, taking into consideration MJ's substance abuse history.

And that's aside from whether MJ self-medicated without Murray's knowledge.

And it's also aside from the possibility Murray left MJ alone for any length of time after he administered the propofol.

And THAT'S aside from whatever Murray might've done (including allowing too much time to lapse before calling for help) when he first realized MJ was slipping away.

[warhorse46]

Either they have it or they don't. If they are waiting for expert opinions, which we know are a dime a dozen, the case is shaky at best. imo



They may have it but it is a matter of assembling it in an understandable package. A good investigation takes time in real life. This is not Law & Order or CSI where the crime is committed & solved in an hour. It took over 2 years of investigation before charges were brought against the doctors & Howard K Stern in the Anna Nicole Smith death.

[PointQueen]

They may have it but it is a matter of assembling it in an understandable package. A good investigation takes time in real life. This is not Law & Order or CSI where the crime is committed & solved in an hour. It took over 2 years of investigation before charges were brought against the doctors & Howard K Stern in the Anna Nicole Smith death.

I believe the two cases are not similar. One had to do with prescription drug charges and the other has to do with homicide. Prescription drug charges take longer in that the paper tail had to be followed and assembled. This homicide case should be cut and dried, no? jmo

The coroner ruled this a homicide, no? imo

[Imperfect4]

Good post, Imperfect.

<thud>



:laugh:

[PointQueen]

<thud>



:laugh:

<double thud>

[warhorse46]

---------------------------

malpractice. imo


It is extremely rare for malpractice to be litigated in the criminal court system. That is a civil matter.

[PointQueen]

It is extremely rare for malpractice to be litigated in the criminal court system. That is a civil matter.

Exactly.......

[daniel green]

The fact that all the search warrants included the description of "addict" about MJ, is indicative that MJ was using substances.

We don't know what all else was in his system when he died.

[Unperson1984]

Jackson Probe Coming in for a Landing

Posted Sep 16th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the Michael Jackson homicide case will be presented to the L.A. County District Attorney in 3 to 4 weeks.

We're told the lion's share of the investigation has been completed and Dr. Conrad Murray remains the singular target. Our sources say LAPD detectives have requested opinions from several medical experts who will analyze the evidence and offer their opinions on Dr. Murray's conduct.

The medical experts are supposed to submit their finding in 2 to 3 weeks and we're told detectives need an additional week to assemble their evidence before they make a formal presentation to the D.A.

Law enforcement sources also say an arrest will not be made before Dr. Murray is charged with a crime -- of course that assumes he will be charged.

The case is complicated by the fact that Jackson had been taking various medications, even though the evidence is compelling that Propofol was the direct cause of Jackson's death.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RHFwRM5t


It's not a good sign that LE needs expert witnesses just to try to convince the DA to file charges.

[daniel green]

Tonight, ET has never-before-seen video of Michael Jackson under oath, a side of the late King of Pop rarely seen -- and his former manager Dieter Weisner breaks his silence about it! "He was on one side a big beautiful artist," Weisner tells ET's Mark Steines, "and he was such a lonely man -- that was the problem." Being questioned in a multi-million-dollar lawsuit for breach of contract by a former business associate, Michael appears at times jittery and nervous, sometimes laughing, claiming at one point that he did not testify in a previous case because he was suffering from a spider bite. At the time of the alleged bite, Weisner was Michael's manager, a job he took in 1996 that he held for some seven years. Now, he breaks his silence about Michael's claim. "He talked about a spider bite, and it was not a spider bite," says Weisner. "He got an injection from one of the doctors, and I think the needle broke. … I don't know what it is, but it was one of these doctors I didn't like." Was the alleged injection and resulting horrible bruise from one of Michael's so-called "Dr. Feelgoods"? Weisner says he believes so, and that the doctor may have suggested calling it a "spider bite." "I once I had a fight with him," says Weisner of Michael. "I told him, 'You know what, I'm not happy with this.'" ...Wednesday night on ET, we have the reported Michael Jackson "Hit List," from Tommy Mottola to Diane Dimond -- and a famous director?

http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/09/78547/index.html

[daniel green]

It's not a good sign that LE needs expert witnesses just to try to convince the DA to file charges.

Yeah. Just a tad, eh?

[Imperfect4]

Oh, my. I just looked up to see LaToya on my TV screen on The View.

ETA: And she's looking and acting and speaking quite ... normally. And Whoopi just said she finds it very hard to believe Murray deliberately hurt MJ.

[BOZGAL2]

snipped

Law enforcement sources also say an arrest will not be made before Dr. Murray is charged with a crime -- of course that assumes he will be charged.

The case is complicated by the fact that Jackson had been taking various medications, even though the evidence is compelling that Propofol was the direct cause of Jackson's death.

LE is looking at the list of medications DR M admitted administering to Michael before he succumbed to those medications with Diprivan being the straw that broke the camel's back. So I guess one could consider that various medications Michael was taking.

JMO

[Imperfect4]

I have not seen one single doctor offer a professional opinion that Murray was appropriate in his actions. On the contrary all of them seem shocked and dismayed by Murry's conduct. The defense always has their experts, depending on how much money the defendant has. I understand Murry can't even pay his mortgage, and other basic bills.

I don't think anyone's arguing Murray's behavior was inappropriate. The question is whether his behavior was criminal, imo.

[BOZGAL2]

Right.. and because his conduct was so far outside the professional standards he crossed the line into criminal conduct.

ITA
And he will be held accountable for his criminal actions. All in due time.

JMO

[BOZGAL2]

--------------------

I agree.......and thats why i think Murray will never be charged. If its as cut and dry as some would like to believe, Murray would have already been charged. imo

For goodness sakes.
There are many crimes which take months, even years to come to fruition. Rome was not built in a day.

JMO

[Imperfect4]

Right.. and because his conduct was so far outside the professional standards he crossed the line into criminal conduct.

That hasn't been established.

[Cindylee]

It's not a good sign that LE needs expert witnesses just to try to convince the DA to file charges.

That was what I was thinking.

[Cindylee]

I believe ET pays quite a bit for the "breaking his silence" reporting. I wonder how much this guy was paid to break his.

Did you not believe what this guy said?

[Eagleeye]

Here is what I believe the DA is grappling with since the ME ruled it a Homicide. Which one does the DA pick? Which one do you all pick?

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE
Manslaughter in the second degree is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being without malice either express or implied, and without intent to kill or to inflict the injury causing death, committed accidentally in the commission of some unlawful act not felonious, or in the improper performance of an act lawful in itself. Manslaughter in the second degree may be committed by the doing of an unlawful act, or the doing of a lawful act in an unlawful manner, although at the time the defendant did not actually know that the act would result in homicide, and this notwithstanding, after the act was done, or while in progress the defendant used ordinary care to prevent the taking of human life; nor is the intention to take life necessary in a prosecution for this offense.

Manslaughter: Involuntary
Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended.

http://www.law.ua.edu/colquitt/crimmain/crimmisc/jurymur.htm (http://www.law.ua.edu/colquitt/crimmain/crimmisc/jurymur.htm)

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/manslaughter_involuntary.html (http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/manslaughter_involuntary.html)

[warhorse46]

I believe the two cases are not similar. One had to do with prescription drug charges and the other has to do with homicide. Prescription drug charges take longer in that the paper tail had to be followed and assembled. This homicide case should be cut and dried, no? jmo

The coroner ruled this a homicide, no? imo



I see several similarities in the two cases. No I do not think this homicide case is cut & dried. I think it is rather complicated.

[Firehead11]

I believe ET pays quite a bit for the "breaking his silence" reporting. I wonder how much this guy was paid to break his.


Wow and this manager didn't do a thing either ! Name the doctor DW, sl that LE can look into filing charges against him also.

[Firehead11]

That was what I was thinking.

Oh I bet there will be charges. Every doctor that has been interviewed has stated that Murray was in the wrong, IIRC.

[warhorse46]

--------------------

I agree.......and thats why i think Murray will never be charged. If its as cut and dry as some would like to believe, Murray would have already been charged. imo


It has only been a few weeks, give LE time to complete their investigation. Some cases take months even years to complete. Why are you in such a rush?

[Eagleeye]

More to think about.

Physicians are in the unique position of having the threat of criminal prosecution hang over their heads for severe or lethal damage to one of their “clients”

To the four core elements of civil malpractice (duty, breach, damages, and causation), add a fifth—your state of mind—in criminal malpractice

Repetitive negligent behavior, constituting a pattern that can be documented, is an invitation to any prosecutor who is considering criminal charges

Dangerous physicians may elude discipline by moving to a different jurisdiction; that’s one reason civil malpractice suits aren’t always a deterrent to bad behavior

It’s reasonable to think that prosecutors will grow more active in filing criminal charges as the public becomes more frustrated with inadequate self-policing

http://www.obgmanagement.com/article_pages.asp?AID=6463&UID=

[Cindylee]

Oh I bet there will be charges. Every doctor that has been interviewed has stated that Murray was in the wrong, IIRC.
I think there will be charges. I am guessing one of the manslaughters. I just don't think this is going to be as easy as some think.

[BOZGAL2]

I feel it falls under 2nd degree murder. The example does not define this case but DR M definately displayed an obvious lack of concern for human life & most assuredly dangerous conduct (2).


He is a DR for crying out loud.

JMO


Murder: Second degree.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html

[Firehead11]

I think there will be charges. I am guessing one of the manslaughters. I just don't think this is going to be as easy as some think.

I think one of the things that will be taken into consideration is that he didn't tell the entire truth to LE when they questioned him. Funny how those cell phone calls came into play here.

[Eagleeye]

I feel it falls under 2nd degree murder. The example does not define this case but DR M definately displayed an obvious lack of concern for human life & most assuredly dangerous conduct (2).

He is a DR for crying out loud.

JMO

Murder: Second degree.

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

snipped:

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html


Your scenario doesn't work. There has to be malice (intentional). I don't think that Dr. Murray had malice or intended to kill him. That is of course there wasn't a conspiracy to do so as some have suggested. However, I am on the fence with the conspriacy theory though.

MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE

Murder in the second degree is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice. but without premeditation and deliberation. And whenever one person unlawfully and with malice aforethought, but without premeditation and deliberation, kills another person it is murder in the second degree.

http://www.law.ua.edu/colquitt/crimmain/crimmisc/jurymur.htm

[PointQueen]

I think one of the things that will be taken into consideration is that he didn't tell the entire truth to LE when they questioned him. Funny how those cell phone calls came into play here.

Not really. That hasn't been determined. We don't know what he told LE. His official statements to LE have not been released. imo

[PointQueen]

It has only been a few weeks, give LE time to complete their investigation. Some cases take months even years to complete. Why are you in such a rush?

In this case, the doctor has admitted to what he gave Jackson. The coroner has ruled it a homicide. What's the hold up in this case? imo

[PointQueen]

I see several similarities in the two cases. No I do not think this homicide case is cut & dried. I think it is rather complicated.

There are no similarities in the charges they investigated in one case and the charge they are investigating in this case. I don't see how that could not be any more obvious. imo

Remember the coroner ruled accidental in the anna case. There is where the big difference is. imo

[Eagleeye]

In this case, the doctor has admitted to what he gave Jackson. The coroner has ruled it a homicide. What's the hold up in this case? imo

It hasn't been three months yet. I am sure this isn't the only case that LAPD and the DA's office is working on. Is there some reason you can think of to hurry up and charge someone without all the ducks in a row?

[Firehead11]

It hasn't been three months yet. I am sure this isn't the only case that LAPD and the DA's office is working on. Is there some reason you can think of to hurry up and charge someone without all the ducks in a row?


I rather they take their time and find out everything before they proceed than to jump the gun, have a speedy trial and don't get a conviction but hey that is just me.

We can speculate why the delay but I think it is a good thing.

[Roxxanne]

In case anyone doesn't know, it's on .

[Cindylee]

Well it certainly could be true....but IMO This guy as well as most of MJ's close associates were low life scum bags willing to do his bidding. Personally, I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw em. I was really just talking about the part that was quoted, about the spider bite. I didn't see the show so I don't know what else he talked about. I just believe it wasn't a spider bite. :biggrin:

[PointQueen]

It hasn't been three months yet. I am sure this isn't the only case that LAPD and the DA's office is working on. Is there some reason you can think of to hurry up and charge someone without all the ducks in a row?

Not at all. I have never said they should rush it. I think it odd they are waiting on experts opinions to try and convince the DA to bring charges.
I believe that shows a shaky case at best for conviction. imo

[Eagleeye]

I was really just talking about the part that was quoted, about the spider bite. I didn't see the show so I don't know what else he talked about. I just believe it wasn't a spider bite. :biggrin:

MJ wouldn't show up for court if he had a hangnail. It would be tooooooooooooo painful. That pitiful display in his pajamas showing up for court was just halarious. :lol:

[Cindylee]

MJ wouldn't show up for court if he had a hangnail. It would be tooooooooooooo painful. That pitiful display in his pajamas showing up for court was just halarious. :lol:

I saw that on the news. That was nuts. I would think his people could have found some clothes for him, somewhere. :ohmy:

[Eagleeye]

-----------------------------------------------

Involuntary manslaughter. Or it may end up being malpractice. imo

Malpractice would be civil not criminal. COD Homicide, at the hands of another = criminal. If it became Malpractice the DA would have to say that there wasn't enough evidence to charge someone. Then the Jackson's would have to go after Dr. Murray in civil court for wrongful death. That will likely happen either way.

[Roxxanne]

----------------------

There has also been some doctors on some of the talk shows that have said 25 mg of diprivan would not be enough to end the life of MJ. imo

Yes but, he gave him that benzo cocktail first.

[Imperfect4]

I saw that on the news. That was nuts. I would think his people could have found some clothes for him, somewhere. :ohmy:

Having read and heard how clever and diligent MJ and his peeps were at procuring him the drugs he wanted, in hindsight, it does seem a bit disingenuous not a one of those clever folks could procure him a pair of slacks to wear to court. :glare:

[BOZGAL2]

-------------------------

Would u share with us on how and why u think this was intentional on Murrays part? Your example is a horse of a different color. imo


Gladly


http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/malice-aforethought/

Malice Aforethought Law & Legal Definition

Malice aforethought is the the deliberate intent to cause death or great bodily harm to another person before a person commits the crime. Malice aforethought is an element that must be proved in the crime of first degree murder. This description of the perpetrator's state of mind basically means that he or she had an intent to inflict injury without legal justification or excuse (legal justification included such defenses as self-defense, while excuse includes mental illness and duress).

Malice aforethought is comprised of any one of the following three elements: (1) an intent to kill; (2) an intent to inflict grievous bodily injury; or (3) an intent to act in a manner that creates a plain and strong likelihood that death or grievous harm will follow. Of these three prongs of malice, the first two prongs require a specific intent on the part of the defendant, measured subjectively, while the third prong only requires a general intent, measured both subjectively and objectively. Accordingly, malice aforethought may exist without an actual intent to kill or do grievous bodily harm, if there is proof of the "third prong" of malice. This simply means that the perpetrator knew of circumstances that a reasonably prudent person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood of death or grievous bodily harm resulting from the perpetrator's act. The law can infer malice from circumstantial evidence, such as from the intentional use of a deadly weapon


DR M'S actions clearly fall under #3. DR should and would have had prior knowledge of the outcome of his actions.

JMO

[ish]

I saw that on the news. That was nuts. I would think his people could have found some clothes for him, somewhere. :ohmy:

He had to show up in his pjs, he wouldn't have looked so "pitiful" if he wore street clothes. It was all for the cameras and the fans. That way he could complain later that everytime he went somewhere it turned into a circus.

[Imperfect4]

I actually believe Murray was trying to avoid giving MJ the propofol, which is why he gave him the other drugs first. But if MJ didn't fall asleep with the other stuff, and he demanded the propofol, well ... MJ was the "customer" and Murray was there to service his customer. That was their arrangement.

I'm not defending Murray's actions. But I keep returning to the fact if MJ hadn't demanded a personal physician to help him get and take his drugs while on tour, Murray wouldn't have been there to begin with. MJ's substance abuse created the necessity (as he saw it) for a full-time drug doc.

Both men played with fire. MJ died in the blaze and Murray will be on fire one way or another the rest of his life.

[Imperfect4]

Gladly


http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/malice-aforethought/

Malice Aforethought Law & Legal Definition

Malice aforethought is the the deliberate intent to cause death or great bodily harm to another person before a person commits the crime. Malice aforethought is an element that must be proved in the crime of first degree murder. This description of the perpetrator's state of mind basically means that he or she had an intent to inflict injury without legal justification or excuse (legal justification included such defenses as self-defense, while excuse includes mental illness and duress).

Malice aforethought is comprised of any one of the following three elements: (1) an intent to kill; (2) an intent to inflict grievous bodily injury; or (3) an intent to act in a manner that creates a plain and strong likelihood that death or grievous harm will follow. Of these three prongs of malice, the first two prongs require a specific intent on the part of the defendant, measured subjectively, while the third prong only requires a general intent, measured both subjectively and objectively. Accordingly, malice aforethought may exist without an actual intent to kill or do grievous bodily harm, if there is proof of the "third prong" of malice. This simply means that the perpetrator knew of circumstances that a reasonably prudent person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood of death or grievous bodily harm resulting from the perpetrator's act. The law can infer malice from circumstantial evidence, such as from the intentional use of a deadly weapon


DR M'S actions clearly fall under #3. DR should and would have had prior knowledge of the outcome of his actions.

JMO

Bolded to address. There's nothing clear about it at all. There is nothing so far to indicate Murray intended to harm MJ. Not a thing.

[ish]

I actually believe Murray was trying to avoid giving MJ the propofol, which is why he gave him the other drugs first. But if MJ didn't fall asleep with the other stuff, and he demanded the propofol, well ... MJ was the "customer" and Murray was there to service his customer. That was their arrangement.

I'm not defending Murray's actions. But I keep returning to the fact if MJ hadn't demanded a personal physician to help him get and take his drugs while on tour, Murray wouldn't have been there to begin with. MJ's substance abuse created the necessity (as he saw it) for a full-time drug doc.

Both men played with fire. MJ died in the blaze and Murray will be on fire one way or another the rest of his life.

MJ was a master at manipulating people. He knew that he needed to find a Dr. in need of cash, lots of cash. He asked around or had his "people" find someone he felt was vulnerable. Dr Murray it was. Had things gone well, if MJ got thru this tour and had no further need for Murray, I'd bet he'd drop him owing him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Knowing Murray couldn't very well make too big of a stink without dirtying up his own reputation..

[daniel green]

Having read and heard how clever and diligent MJ and his peeps were at procuring him the drugs he wanted, in hindsight, it does seem a bit disingenuous not a one of those clever folks could procure him a pair of slacks to wear to court. :glare:

Ain't that the truth.

[Cindylee]

I actually believe Murray was trying to avoid giving MJ the propofol, which is why he gave him the other drugs first. But if MJ didn't fall asleep with the other stuff, and he demanded the propofol, well ... MJ was the "customer" and Murray was there to service his customer. That was their arrangement.

I'm not defending Murray's actions. But I keep returning to the fact if MJ hadn't demanded a personal physician to help him get and take his drugs while on tour, Murray wouldn't have been there to begin with. MJ's substance abuse created the necessity (as he saw it) for a full-time drug doc.

Both men played with fire. MJ died in the blaze and Murray will be on fire one way or another the rest of his life.

I totally agree with you.

[Firehead11]

Yes but, he gave him that benzo cocktail first.

And therein lays the problem. The mixture of drugs that were given to Jackson. Sort of like the Smith death. The CH was the contributing factor, she drank a little too much of it in her weakened state.

[daniel green]

snipped


DR M'S actions clearly fall under #3. DR should and would have had prior knowledge of the outcome of his actions.

JMO

(3) an intent to act in a manner that creates a plain and strong likelihood that death or grievous harm will follow

No way would a jury ever believe that Dr M acted with intent to kill or cause harm.

[Cindylee]

MJ was a master at manipulating people. He knew that he needed to find a Dr. in need of cash, lots of cash. He asked around or had his "people" find someone he felt was vulnerable. Dr Murray it was. Had things gone well, if MJ got thru this tour and had no further need for Murray, I'd bet he'd drop him owing him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Knowing Murray couldn't very well make too big of a stink without dirtying up his own reputation..

Good points.

[Unperson1984]

It has only been a few weeks, give LE time to complete their investigation. Some cases take months even years to complete. Why are you in such a rush?

It's true that some cases take a long time, but what else is there to discover about Murray's actions the day MJ died? They've found whatever there was to find at the house, Murray told them what drugs he administered and it seems to be confirmed by the tox report. They've searched Murray's homes, offices and storage, and still they don't have enough to charge him.

:shrug:

[Firehead11]

How did you get "what are they waiting for?" the same as the poster saying he/she wanted something rushed?

The poster gave an opinion on what was meant in post #1. Why are you accusing this poster of twisting words? I don't see any twisting.

I see you as badgering the poster. imo I am reporting your post.

Well I hope that you read Coldwaters warning about reporting posters. But once she sees the entire exchange, she just might agree with Eagle.

[Imperfect4]

MJ was a master at manipulating people. He knew that he needed to find a Dr. in need of cash, lots of cash. He asked around or had his "people" find someone he felt was vulnerable. Dr Murray it was. Had things gone well, if MJ got thru this tour and had no further need for Murray, I'd bet he'd drop him owing him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Knowing Murray couldn't very well make too big of a stink without dirtying up his own reputation..

Hey, I know you! :seeya:

MJ knew Murray already from Vegas, ish. Story is that Murray treated MJ's kids for odds and ends while they were there. However, people on this thread have indicated Murray had a rep as a Dr. Feelgood (I haven't read anything like that myself, but it's certainly conceivable), and that may have been why MJ thought of him for his tour. That, or he had enough first-hand experience of Murray from Vegas to know he could be talked into becoming that sort of doctor. And certainly Murray's financial problems were an incentive. And my guess is MJ knew about them.

Story goes MJ demanded a personal physician for the tour, and while AEG (the tour promoter) wanted a London physician, MJ insisted on Murray. AEG was supposed to be the one paying him, but who knows which cut of the profits his salary would come from.

My guess, these days, is Murray and MJ knew exactly what the doc's role would be in Michael's life at the outset.

There's no "good guy" in this. I'll be interested to learn, if we ever do, how aware AEG was of MJ's substance abuse problem and why he really needed a full-time personal physician on tour.

[PointQueen]

He had to show up in his pjs, he wouldn't have looked so "pitiful" if he wore street clothes. It was all for the cameras and the fans. That way he could complain later that everytime he went somewhere it turned into a circus.

I so agree with this.

[Eagleeye]

--------------------

Its posts like yours that get the board shut down. Very unair. imo

It is also unfair to quote something imporperly and skew the words.

Eagle

[Imperfect4]

No way would a jury ever believe that Dr M acted with intent to kill or cause harm.

I agree. It defies logic. Unless there really was a conspiracy to murder MJ. Which also at the moment defies logic. At least for me.

[Firehead11]

Good points.

Nah, didn't Murray complain that he didn't receive his payment after his patient died? Something like he was owed $300,000 grand ? I doubt if He was worried about his stellar reputation at all.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/06/28/michael-jacksons-doctor-refutes-claims-he-gave-star-injection/

Chernoff reiterated that Murray hadn’t been treating Jackson for long — despite AEG’s claims that Murray was Jackson’s doctor for three years, Chernoff says Murray joined Jackson as his personal physician as of last month — and noted that Murray is owed $300,000 from AEG, the concert promoter behind Jackson’s “This Is It!” run of 50 London concerts, which was due to start July 13th.

[daniel green]

I agree. It defies logic. Unless there really was a conspiracy to murder MJ. Which also at the moment defies logic. At least for me.

I can't for the life of me decide which one of those two options is sillier and with less merit.

[BOZGAL2]

No way would a jury ever believe that Dr M acted with intent to kill or cause harm.



This simply means that the perpetrator knew of circumstances that a reasonably prudent person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood of death or grievous bodily harm resulting from the perpetrator's act. The law can infer malice from circumstantial evidence, such as from the intentional use of a deadly weapon.

This was included with the definition.
Most people would want to believe a DR is a reasonably prudent person.

JMO

[BOZGAL2]

It is also unfair to quote something imporperly and skew the words.

Eagle

Unfortunately it happens all the time. Just happened to my post.

JMO

[daniel green]

This simply means that the perpetrator knew of circumstances that a reasonably prudent person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood of death or grievous bodily harm resulting from the perpetrator's act. snipped

No way Dr M believed that it caused death nor harm. MJ had been using propofol nightly for the better part of a decade. He had been using Versed and injectible opiates and benzos for 20+ yrs. Dr M gave MJ, by his own admission, propofol for 6 weeks, every night.

[Unperson1984]

Gladly


http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/malice-aforethought/

Malice Aforethought Law & Legal Definition

Malice aforethought is the the deliberate intent to cause death or great bodily harm to another person before a person commits the crime. Malice aforethought is an element that must be proved in the crime of first degree murder. This description of the perpetrator's state of mind basically means that he or she had an intent to inflict injury without legal justification or excuse (legal justification included such defenses as self-defense, while excuse includes mental illness and duress).

Malice aforethought is comprised of any one of the following three elements: (1) an intent to kill; (2) an intent to inflict grievous bodily injury; or (3) an intent to act in a manner that creates a plain and strong likelihood that death or grievous harm will follow. Of these three prongs of malice, the first two prongs require a specific intent on the part of the defendant, measured subjectively, while the third prong only requires a general intent, measured both subjectively and objectively. Accordingly, malice aforethought may exist without an actual intent to kill or do grievous bodily harm, if there is proof of the "third prong" of malice. This simply means that the perpetrator knew of circumstances that a reasonably prudent person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood of death or grievous bodily harm resulting from the perpetrator's act. The law can infer malice from circumstantial evidence, such as from the intentional use of a deadly weapon


DR M'S actions clearly fall under #3. DR should and would have had prior knowledge of the outcome of his actions.

JMO

It may be more useful to look at the California definition as it pertains to the Homicide Code.

188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when
there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away
the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable
provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing
show an abandoned and malignant heart.

[RootBeer]

No way Dr M believed that it caused death nor harm. MJ had been using propofol nightly for the better part of a decade. He had been using Versed and injectible opiates and benzos for 20+ yrs. Dr M gave MJ, by his own admission, propofol for 6 weeks, every night.

---------------

I agree, Dr. M. believed that MJ would be ok. jmo

---------------

[RootBeer]

--------------------

I agree.......and thats why i think Murray will never be charged. If its as cut and dry as some would like to believe, Murray would have already been charged. imo

----------------

I totally agree

---------------

[flipflop]

--------------------

Its posts like yours that get the board shut down. Very unair. imo

This is what gets the board shut down.


Coldwater Coldwater is offline
Member

Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldwater View Post
Do you want to argue with each other - "you did, no you did", etc
TAKE IT TO THE PM OPTION OR BE DENIED ACCESS.

There are three of you who have totally ignored the above so I'm closing the thread for the night, any new one started before the a.m. will be deleted.

I won't give your names as it's so obvious, you took up about 3 to 4 pages of bickering with each other, be advised next ONE time & you are gone.

The good posters on here can complain to you in PM for getting the thread closed.

[PointQueen]

It is also unfair to quote something imporperly and skew the words.

Eagle

That is absolutely NOT what happened. I made the mistake of answering you and YOU twisted my post. Now leave me alone!!!

[Xenam]

MJ was a master at manipulating people. He knew that he needed to find a Dr. in need of cash, lots of cash. He asked around or had his "people" find someone he felt was vulnerable. Dr Murray it was. Had things gone well, if MJ got thru this tour and had no further need for Murray, I'd bet he'd drop him owing him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Knowing Murray couldn't very well make too big of a stink without dirtying up his own reputation..

Agree with some of your post except for payment. He was on or supposed to be put on AEG's payroll at $150K/month.

[Imperfect4]

Nah, didn't Murray complain that he didn't receive his payment after his patient died? Something like he was owed $300,000 grand ? I doubt if He was worried about his stellar reputation at all.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/06/28/michael-jacksons-doctor-refutes-claims-he-gave-star-injection/

Chernoff reiterated that Murray hadn’t been treating Jackson for long — despite AEG’s claims that Murray was Jackson’s doctor for three years, Chernoff says Murray joined Jackson as his personal physician as of last month — and noted that Murray is owed $300,000 from AEG, the concert promoter behind Jackson’s “This Is It!” run of 50 London concerts, which was due to start July 13th.

Do you really think Murray intended to kill his "patient" before he'd been paid a red cent? Where's the motive or logic in that?

[Xenam]

No way Dr M believed that it caused death nor harm. MJ had been using propofol nightly for the better part of a decade. He had been using Versed and injectible opiates and benzos for 20+ yrs. Dr M gave MJ, by his own admission, propofol for 6 weeks, every night.

This is not true. He had been using it off and on and the last KNOWN time was 1993 and possibly during the trial. There is no proof he had used propofol recently prior to Dr Murray's entrance thus his plea to Nurse Lee. JMO

[daniel green]

A great many ppl employed by MJ, thoughout the decades, were not paid the money owned to him/her/they.

[Cindylee]

Nah, didn't Murray complain that he didn't receive his payment after his patient died? Something like he was owed $300,000 grand ? I doubt if He was worried about his stellar reputation at all.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/06/28/michael-jacksons-doctor-refutes-claims-he-gave-star-injection/

Chernoff reiterated that Murray hadn’t been treating Jackson for long — despite AEG’s claims that Murray was Jackson’s doctor for three years, Chernoff says Murray joined Jackson as his personal physician as of last month — and noted that Murray is owed $300,000 from AEG, the concert promoter behind Jackson’s “This Is It!” run of 50 London concerts, which was due to start July 13th.

Ha, Yes Dr. Murray complained that he was owed money. I think maybe he was pushing his luck there.

[daniel green]

This is not true. He had been using it off and on and the last KNOWN time was 1993 and possibly during the trial. snipped

Nope. Read Rolling Stone. The Dateline special about him. CNN interviews. The Affidavits in support of search warrant requests.

[Xenam]

Nope. Read Rolling Stone. The Dateline special about him. CNN interviews. The Affidavits in support of search warrant requests.

None of those articles say with any confirmation that he in fact used it every night as you imply in your post just that he had used it previously going back a decade. Big difference.

[daniel green]

But they could easily believe Murray acted with implied intent, which would be the basis of a 2nd degree charge of murder.

Nah. The DA/investigators are having to have a panel of docs explain BEFORE an indictment, if one can me made. Just imagine the cluster it would be to explain that to jurors and get them to agree on why a doctor being paid by MJ to give him propofol acted with implied intent.

[Cindylee]

This simply means that the perpetrator knew of circumstances that a reasonably prudent person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood of death or grievous bodily harm resulting from the perpetrator's act. The law can infer malice from circumstantial evidence, such as from the intentional use of a deadly weapon.

This was included with the definition.
Most people would want to believe a DR is a reasonably prudent person.

JMO I would agree with you a bit here, except for the fact that MJ had successfully taken the propfol in the past. So, Dr.Murray could assume he could continue giving it without a problem.

[daniel green]

None of those articles say with any confirmation that he in fact used it every night as you imply in your post just that he had used it previously going back a decade. Big difference.

They do. They talk about how he used it for over a decade as a "sleep aid."

Just like they talk about MJ taking 10-30 Xanax over the course of any given night.

They found Versed (anesthesia) vials at NL in 2002 (is that the date?) and he was taking Versed the night he died.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

----------------------

There has also been some doctors on some of the talk shows that have said 25 mg of diprivan would not be enough to end the life of MJ. imo


I may be incorrect..but havent you continually reminded us we dont know the "Tox Results'..given that we dont know just what dose he gave..nor that his statement was accurate...It has to go both ways when you claim speculation..and in this case we are not sure Dr. Murray's timeline and dosages are even accurate...

I am just trying to remind you..both sides have to be fair...I , myself am waiting to hear the tox result..not just the numbers..but just what was left onboard, ...as that will tell us what was the last drug given that actually was the final straw...given the combo/cocktail...not to mention the short half life of Propofol..

LMS

[Cindylee]

Agree with some of your post except for payment. He was on or supposed to be put on AEG's payroll at $150K/month. I thought the AEG spokesperson said that MJ was to be paying for him out of his proceeds. ????

[Xenam]

They do. They talk about how he used it for over a decade as a "sleep aid."

Just like they talk about MJ taking 10-30 Xanax over the course of any given night.

They found Versed (anesthesia) vials at NL in 2002 (is that the date?) and he was taking Versed the night he died.

Again no proof -- "they" can say whatever they want but unless it is proven -- it is merely speculation. An ex-employee is the one who said MJ took 10-30 Xanax a night and that is hearsay. Absolutely no one knows for sure unless a doctor comes forward and admits he/she administered anasthesia EVERY night as a sleep aid. So why he did ask Lee if she knew a doctor who could give it to him if he had been taking it all along? :shrug: Like everything else -- it is exaggeration based on a smidget of the facts that we know.

[Cindylee]

-----------------------
Where is CW's warning about reporting posters?

On the main page.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/forumdisplay.php?f=661

[daniel green]

As per the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests, MJ even had a pet name for diprivan: "milk."

[Xenam]

I thought the AEG spokesperson said that MJ was to be paying for him out of his proceeds. ????

No -- even in the controversial articles -- it has not been disputed he would be on the payroll just that the first couple of months his salary was allegedly advanced to MJ to pay the doctor and since MJ is dead we don't know if he received any monies. From what I recall he was not on their payroll yet because the contract had not been signed.

[daniel green]

Again no proof -- "they" can say whatever they want but unless it is proven -- it is merely speculation. An ex-employee is the one who said MJ took 10-30 Xanax a night and that is hearsay. snipped.

Oh, goodness. You call it "hearsay," (which only applies in a court of law), others call it facts, history, medical charts, Rx receipts, pharmacy records, etc.

[Xenam]

As per the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests, MJ even had a pet name for diprivan: "milk."

And exactly where does it say he took it every night?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

-------------------
bolding by me
It hasnt be proven that Murray did anything intentional. How can anyone believe he would want to kill MJ? He gave up his practice in Tx to pursue a chance of a lifetime (as per his own words). imo

You continually mention intentional...if that was true..then criminality would rise to 1st Degree...it is the Risk he put his patient at..that rises to "Intentional disregard for human life"..the word "Risk" is the opportune word...because he was not just a DR..he was a specialitist, he was hired to protect his patient...if he did not know what he was doing..then he should have sought out appropriate information/training for treatment..No more ....no Less....Plain to me..Conscious Disregard...As a physician he had to have known what he was doing was putting his patient at risk...IF he didnt he is not only incompetent..He is a scary representative of the profession!!IMO

LMS

[Xenam]

What "proof" do you require?

Your own eyes aren't enough?

Are you holding out for video tape recordings of each and every time he used and abused medication? Seriously........your logic baffles me.

The man was a hard core, chronic drug addict.

Never said he wasn't an addict. I am referring to the anasthesia being taken every night as has been implied nor are there any medical records or prescriptions (not needed) to confirm this. There is absolutely no proof of that and if there is then this is an opportunity to present it. Just because an ex-employee says he took 10-30 Xanax a night - anyone can say anything. I dont deny MJ being an addict -- no doubt whatsoever however I do try to stick to facts not someone's opinion or hearsay. JMO

[daniel green]

Again no proof -- "they" can say whatever they want but unless it is proven -- it is merely speculation. snipped.

Oh, goodness to betsy, that unbelievable stash of drugs found at NL is not speculation. Neither are those affidavits. Neither are the annotated, sourced articles about the subject. Neither are the hundreds of thousands of dollars owed to one pharmacy. Neither is having not one but TWO anesthesiologists as one's physician of record.

[daniel green]

Agwara says Dr. Adams did use propofol on Jackson three or four times last year for dental procedures. Each time Jackson woke up.

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=10996292

[Xenam]

Oh, goodness to betsy, that unbelievable stash of drugs found at NL is not speculation. Neither are those affidavits. Neither are the annotated, sourced articles about the subject. Neither are the hundreds of thousands of dollars owed to one pharmacy. Neither is having not one but TWO anesthesiologists as one's physician of record.

You still haven't answered my question. Who was administering anasthesia PRIOR to Dr. Murray that he had to ask Nurse Lee for it? Had he been given it every night he wouldn't have had to ask her which indicates to me it was off an on -- NOT EVERY NIGHT or on a continuous basis. Prescriptions are not needed or used for anasthesia. Repeating something doesn't make it true.

[daniel green]

Michael Jackson’s dermatologist Dr.Arnie Klein told Larry King last night that he once gave the late singer Demerol.

He also confessed to Larry that The King of pop used Diprivan to go to sleep while touring in Germany and that he believed Michael had been an addict for more than a decade.

http://www.buzzpatrol.com/2009/07/10/drarnie-klein-gave-michael-demerol/

[GentleBreeze]

You still haven't answered my question. Who was administering anasthesia PRIOR to Dr. Murray that he had to ask Nurse Lee for it? Had he been given it every night he wouldn't have had to ask her which indicates to me it was off an on -- NOT EVERY NIGHT or on a continuous basis. Prescriptions are not needed or used for anasthesia.

He had also ask another doctor around the same time. So it is ridiculous to believe he was taking it all along EVERY NIGHT if he was looking for someone who could get the drug and administer the drug to him.

imo

[Firehead11]

Do you really think Murray intended to kill his "patient" before he'd been paid a red cent? Where's the motive or logic in that?

Are you following the right post?

I have always stated that Murray contributed to Jackson's death and should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.

[Firehead11]

They do. They talk about how he used it for over a decade as a "sleep aid."

Just like they talk about MJ taking 10-30 Xanax over the course of any given night.

They found Versed (anesthesia) vials at NL in 2002 (is that the date?) and he was taking Versed the night he died.

IIRC, Jackson was given it not taking it. A slight difference there.

[daniel green]

Interesting....from your link.

"Agwara also says that Dr. Murray may have misled detectives about the length of his relationship with Jackson. "I don't know what Dr. Murray may have told authorities. His relationship with Mr. Jackson goes back years. It's not just six weeks before Mr. Jackson's passing, it's years. Not only do we believe that, we know that for a fact," he said."

I thought that was very interesting, too.

MJ had two anesthesiologists, the dentist, Metzger, Murray, Adams, etc, giving him this stuff, year after year.

[Firehead11]

I could be a potential juror and based on the facts that we are aware of thus far, I can easily conclude that the evidence will satisfy the elements of a 2nd degree murder. This is based on extreme recklessness, acting well outside professional standards, forseeability, and wanton disregard for life.

The DA hasn't asked for a panel but rather the investigation team.



Our sources say LAPD detectives have requested opinions from several medical experts who will analyze the evidence and offer their opinions on Dr. Murray's conduct.


Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RJIASeX8

[Firehead11]

For those who love Burt Reynolds, he has checked into a rehab center for addiction to pain killers.

Burt Reynolds has checked himself into a rehab clinic in West Palm Beach, seeking treatment for a painkiller addiction.

Reynolds' manager released a statement earlier today claiming the 73-year-old actor was struggling after a recent back surgery and "realized that he was in the prison of prescription pain pills."

Burt's manager added, "He checked himself into rehab in order to regain control of his life.

Mr. Reynolds hopes his story will help others in a similar situation.


Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RJJ2sOPZ



http://www.tmz.com/

Sorry OT but sort of linked......

[Imperfect4]

Again no proof -- "they" can say whatever they want but unless it is proven -- it is merely speculation. An ex-employee is the one who said MJ took 10-30 Xanax a night and that is hearsay. Absolutely no one knows for sure unless a doctor comes forward and admits he/she administered anasthesia EVERY night as a sleep aid. So why he did ask Lee if she knew a doctor who could give it to him if he had been taking it all along? :shrug: Like everything else -- it is exaggeration based on a smidget of the facts that we know.

I think, though, a reasonable person can logically conclude that when a person puts a doctor on payroll to dispense drugs, that person is a very regular user of drugs. I think it's also reasonable to assume MJ was especially fond of propofol, thus the need for someone to administer it to him.

So while I agree we're basing a lot of our discussion on hearsay and unsourced reporting, there are certain logical conclusions one can draw.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

He had also ask another doctor around the same time. So it is ridiculous to believe he was taking it all along EVERY NIGHT if he was looking for someone who could get the drug and administer the drug to him.

imo

Every Night//are we talking about Diprivan????..If so..why would he (MJ) have called his nurse Cherylin Lee..weeks before Murray came to live with MJ??..I dont think Diprivan was a everynight affair prior to Murray coming onboard...I do believe however he had been getting "treatment" at Kleins office..and it ultimately was cut off..so was maybe in panic mode trying to find a new source..being that as it may....He indeed found a "Cardiologist" who would feed his need..IF..as some would like to asume that he could feed himself...why hire a 150.000.00 a month physician to give it to him...????I dont for one minute believe MJ could self start an intravenous..and self inject this drug....maybe shoot up something..but not this drug...Propofol is the smoking gun in my mind...and I rather doubt it was a 25 mg dose..I think it was either higher..or more than just one dose....Tox will tell us just what was left onboard when he stopped breathing...

LMS

[daniel green]

again from your link

"Agwara says Dr. Adams did use propofol on Jackson three or four times last year for dental procedures. Each time Jackson woke up. "

I am wondering what exactly that means....????? "Woke up" during the procedure or "woke up" as in, he didn't kill him?

The latter, WEL.

[Imperfect4]

As per the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests, MJ even had a pet name for diprivan: "milk."

Which is reminiscent of his "Jesus Juice" nickname for wine, IIRC. There are patterns here. I choose to see them. Others choose not to.

[daniel green]

Imperfect, a well defined pattern of behavior. Difficult to ignore.

The police also found IV bags with milky-white residue in NL. I can only imagine that was dirprivan.

[Imperfect4]

IIRC, Jackson was given it not taking it. A slight difference there.

Oh, my. I was waiting for something like this. So now Murray was giving MJ drugs against his will.

And before anyone responds to say MJ certainly didn't ask to be given something to kill him, save your typing fingers.

My point is, the relationship between MJ and Murray was all about MJ's desire to continue his substance abuse.

[BOZGAL2]

Oh, my. I was waiting for something like this. So now Murray was giving MJ drugs against his will.

And before anyone responds to say MJ certainly didn't ask to be given something to kill him, save your typing fingers.

My point is, the relationship between MJ and Murray was all about MJ's desire to continue his substance abuse.

That is not what I got out of Fire's post at all. A DR administering drugs is certainly different than sitting around shooting yourself up with drugs. And I am not saying DR M administered the meds against Michael's will. I have not seen anyone post that. But the problem is Conrad Murray does have MD after his name.

Thanks for your concern but my fingers need the exercise. :wink:
JMO

[Imperfect4]

I don't think MJ coined the term "Milk of Amnesia."

I've seen a number of sources stating MJ referred to the propofol as his "milk." Whether he got the idea from the "milk of amnesia" term or not isn't important, imo.

What's more important is MJ's need to cloak his drugs of choice in little nicknames intended to make them sound benign. And childlike. I find it disturbing on a few levels.

[Imperfect4]

That is not what I got out of Fire's post at all. A DR administering drugs is certainly different than sitting around shooting yourself up with drugs. And I am not saying DR M administered the meds against Michael's will. I have not seen anyone post that. But the problem is Conrad Murray does have MD after his name.

Thanks for your concern but my fingers need the exercise. :wink:
JMO

I think we've established Murray is a doctor. I think we've also established that where there are addicts with money, there are doctors to service them.

Can't have the second with the first. Demand drives supply.

Neither is right. But MJ was not so much a victim as a co-conspirator, and the "plot" originated with him.

[Cindylee]

For those who love Burt Reynolds, he has checked into a rehab center for addiction to pain killers.

Burt Reynolds has checked himself into a rehab clinic in West Palm Beach, seeking treatment for a painkiller addiction.

Reynolds' manager released a statement earlier today claiming the 73-year-old actor was struggling after a recent back surgery and "realized that he was in the prison of prescription pain pills."

Burt's manager added, "He checked himself into rehab in order to regain control of his life.

Mr. Reynolds hopes his story will help others in a similar situation.


Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0RJJ2sOPZ



http://www.tmz.com/

Sorry OT but sort of linked......

I met him once, and I have to say he was one of the biggest jerks I have ever met. Maybe it was the drinking. I hope he gets the help he needs.

[daniel green]

snipped

What's more important is MJ's need to cloak his drugs of choice in little nicknames intended to make them sound benign. And childlike. I find it disturbing on a few levels.

Yep. Makes it very, very disturbing.

[daniel green]

snipped

Neither is right. But MJ was not so much a victim as a co-conspirator, and the "plot" originated with him.

Excellent point.

[Imperfect4]

Yep. Makes it very, very disturbing.

It smells manipulative to me, as I think about it. So if you're cloaking dangerous, addictive substances in names invoking the Son of God in one instance, and something babies and children drink in another ... I guess I want to know what else about you and your life is not what you're making it out to be.

Yeesh. I despise lying and manipulation and lack of genuineness.

[ResJudicata]

Which is reminiscent of his "Jesus Juice" nickname for wine, IIRC. There are patterns here. I choose to see them. Others choose not to.

I don't think MJ coined the term "Milk of Amnesia".

[Firehead11]

Oh, my. I was waiting for something like this. So now Murray was giving MJ drugs against his will.

And before anyone responds to say MJ certainly didn't ask to be given something to kill him, save your typing fingers.

My point is, the relationship between MJ and Murray was all about MJ's desire to continue his substance abuse.

Well thank you for the concern over my typing fingers but they are working quite well. I didn't even imply that Jackson was being forced against his will about these drugs. Show me where I implied that.

There is a difference between someone taking stuff and being given stuff. I am sorry that you cannot understand that concept.

This doctor started an IV line and fed various drugs to Jackson and then left the room. This doctor did this without having the proper equipment readily available in case of an emergency. This doctor claims he was performing CPR and he was doing this incorrectly. A cardiologist that doesn't know how to perform CPR?

Have a good night

[Imperfect4]

I don't think MJ coined the term "Milk of Amnesia".

You've tripped yourself up somehow. I responded to this identical post in post #158. Except THAT post was by one of your alters, apparently. :blink:

[Imperfect4]

Well thank you for the concern over my typing fingers but they are working quite well. I didn't even imply that Jackson was being forced against his will about these drugs. Show me where I implied that.

There is a difference between someone taking stuff and being given stuff. I am sorry that you cannot understand that concept.

This doctor started an IV line and fed various drugs to Jackson and then left the room. This doctor did this without having the proper equipment readily available in case of an emergency. This doctor claims he was performing CPR and he was doing this incorrectly. A cardiologist that doesn't know how to perform CPR?

Have a good night

Bolded paragraph is entirely speculation.

[Firehead11]

Bolded paragraph is entirely speculation.

Yeah ok. :rolleyes:

Whatever.

[Firehead11]

--------------------------

yes we know what you think. imo



Good because it seems some still get confused.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

---------------------------

Yes...............u r incorrect. I may have said it once maybe twice about the tox reports but thats it. I challenge u to go back and find all of these posts u r accusing me of. imo

Humm.Not accusing..only pointing out your posting and the conintinuing of same opining..I was only saying..if one side wants proof..then the other side can say same thing...Last I heard..most hear are intepreting what we know so far..thus discussion..Right..

R U being argumentative??..No need..As I was just pointing out discussion of viewpoint..and disregarding some things..yet holding others as gospel..

LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

------------------------
I dont need a surmon from u. I will continue to say that Murray did not do anything INTENTIONAL to MJ. Why would he? For what purpose? Do u mind answering that question? imo

Answer ..Dr. Murray incompetently gave MJ drugs inappropriately..in an incompetent manner ..something he Should have known..and did know was HIGH RISK..That to me as a HC professional "Intentionally Putting Someone at Risk"....Thus..ranging charges could range from 2nd degree to Manslaughter....

He did not likely kill MJ..intentionally as to a First Degree Murder situation..unless you believe he was on someones payroll to "Off Him"..Nope, I dont believe that...However I do believe there may well be evidence he attempted to alter the scene...hide evidence..and delay assistence..and in many cases that could be "Consciousness of Guilt"....Take or leave it..It's my viewpoint...

Intentional is only a word...and it depends on the application of that word..I should not need to link the definitions for you..or do I??

LMS:sneaky:

[ResJudicata]

You've tripped yourself up somehow. I responded to this identical post in post #158. Except THAT post was by one of your alters, apparently. :blink:


Not exactly.

[Imperfect4]

Not exactly.

Whatever. Please don't confuse me with duplicate posts. I'm old.

[ResJudicata]

---------------------

Well a juror doesnt base his decision on hearsay from a message board. I'll be able to sleep well tonight knowing that u would never be considered a potential juror. imo


A fair minded juror wouldn't, you are right. But my post was made in light of the autopsy report and Murray's admissions, applied to California statutes.

In this case, I would not be considered a potential juror due to my involvement on this forum.

[ResJudicata]

----------------------

First of all no one knows if Murray spoon fed drugs to MJ (except for the diprivan). Whatever else was found in his body could have been at the hands of MJ himself. It seem no one is taking this into consideration. A patient has to be honest with their doctor first and foremost.
And i dont appreciate your sarcasm in your last paragraph.
that was uncalled for. imo


You are incorrect. Murray has already admitted to having administered the lethal cocktail of various drugs, including propofol.

[daniel green]

snipped

Intentional is only a word...and it depends on the application of that word..I should not need to link the definitions for you..or do I??[/B]

LMS:sneaky:

Oh, goodness, intentional is not just a little bitty word in criminal court.

[ResJudicata]

Please link me to the autopsy report that only you seem to be privy to.

The office of the Los Angeles County coroner confirmed Friday that it had ruled Michael Jackson’s death a homicide. It said the cause was a mixture of the powerful anesthetic propofol and the anti-anxiety drug lorazepam, both of which, previously disclosed court documents say, Mr. Jackson’s doctor has acknowledged administering to him the day he died.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/us/29jackson.html

[who_is_it]

----------------------

First of all no one knows if Murray spoon fed drugs to MJ (except for the diprivan). Whatever else was found in his body could have been at the hands of MJ himself. It seem no one is taking this into consideration. A patient has to be honest with their doctor first and foremost.
And i dont appreciate your sarcasm in your last paragraph.
that was uncalled for. imo

"Administer" doesn't mean he feeded him literally. Probably MJ himself took the other drugs (except propofol) but imo it's likely Dr. Murray made them available (what means "administered").

[Imperfect4]

The office of the Los Angeles County coroner confirmed Friday that it had ruled Michael Jackson’s death a homicide. It said the cause was a mixture of the powerful anesthetic propofol and the anti-anxiety drug lorazepam, both of which, previously disclosed court documents say, Mr. Jackson’s doctor has acknowledged administering to him the day he died.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/us/29jackson.html

Daniel -- this link is probably where you read about the ongoing propofol thing --

Some of those documents, filed in Texas so the authorities could gain permission to search Dr. Murray’s office and storage unit there, quote him as telling investigators that in the six weeks before death, he administered propofol intravenously to Mr. Jackson nightly to help him sleep.

[Imperfect4]

The office of the Los Angeles County coroner confirmed Friday that it had ruled Michael Jackson’s death a homicide. It said the cause was a mixture of the powerful anesthetic propofol and the anti-anxiety drug lorazepam, both of which, previously disclosed court documents say, Mr. Jackson’s doctor has acknowledged administering to him the day he died.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/us/29jackson.html

This is interesting, from your link:

Dr. Murray has denied any responsibility for Mr. Jackson’s death, and the doctor’s lawyer, Edward Chernoff, criticized the coroner’s office Friday for releasing only a brief summary of the autopsy results, telling The Associated Press that doing so seemed to him “gamesmanship.”

Seems Chernoff thinks the coroner's office is offering, shall I say, only a partial picture of the autopsy results. I guess we knew that, but it's interesting to me Chernoff made a point of saying the coroner's office was playing games (paraphrased).

[who_is_it]

Again no proof -- "they" can say whatever they want but unless it is proven -- it is merely speculation. An ex-employee is the one who said MJ took 10-30 Xanax a night and that is hearsay. Absolutely no one knows for sure unless a doctor comes forward and admits he/she administered anasthesia EVERY night as a sleep aid. So why he did ask Lee if she knew a doctor who could give it to him if he had been taking it all along? :shrug: Like everything else -- it is exaggeration based on a smidget of the facts that we know.

I've already said the following some time ago:

Xanax is a drug of the benzodiazepine class. Strong addicts to illegal drugs use benzodiapine as a substitute drug. Benzodiazepine in high dosages makes the addicts aggressive (specially if combined with alcohol) and the people can't produce coherent speech anymore; it hasn't a sedative effect as one would think. About 10 pills is a high dosage for a STRONG addict. Another poster here at the board confirmed what I've said. She (?) said she knew someone addicted to Xanax; with 5 pills the person was high like a kite according to the poster's statement.

Imo there's no way Michael Jackson could have taken as many pills as it was claimed by some media.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Oh, goodness, intentional is not just a little bitty word in criminal court.

On a message board is it indeed an interpretation..as to mindset of the perpetator..but when it comes to a Medical Professional...they KNOW what is RISKY..and why they need to obtain "Conscents"....I have provided a link..as you already aknowledged "Intention" is a obtuse term..and it seems the legal community is actually trying to describe it..yikes....For me as a HC proivider..IF I KNEW what I was doing was putting somebody at risk..I would be protecting not just myself..but the patient..not too difficult to understand...AS a HC professional one must have to assume the "Worst Case Scenerio" in their head and have ALL bases covered..AKA..Resuscitation Equipement handy..( NOPE..Murray O2 only)....
link~~

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/intentional

All I am saying is Dr. Murray did something to put his patient at risk..sans (without) having necessary equipment necessary to maintain life..and for that reason alone he is culpable for a homicide..the investigation will bring to light to just what level he is to be charged for...

LMS

ETA..Please stop Snipping my posts..as it does take it out of context of what I was replying to...

[GentleBreeze]

This is interesting, from your link:



Seems Chernoff thinks the coroner's office is offering, shall I say, only a partial picture of the autopsy results. I guess we knew that, but it's interesting to me Chernoff made a point of saying the coroner's office was playing games (paraphrased).

Chernoff is being a typical defense attorney and trying to spin it that the coroner's office is being unfair. Poor baby. It isn't the Coroner's doings. The LAPD has asked the Coroner's office not to release the autopsy report which of course will include the toxicology report.

He can see it after his client has been arrested if that happens and get it through discovery like other defense attorneys have to do.

imo

[Imperfect4]

Chernoff is being a typical defense attorney and trying to spin it that the coroner's office is being unfair. Poor baby. It isn't the Coroner's doings. The LAPD has asked the Coroner's office not to release the autopsy report which of course will include the toxicology report.

He can see it after his client has been arrested if that happens and get it through discovery like other defense attorneys have to do.

imo

He may be being just a typical defense attorney. On the other hand, he may think someone deliberately withheld information from the autopsy report that puts his client in a less nefarious light.

[flipflop]

EXCLUSIVE: D.A. Likely To Send Case Against Dr. Murray To Grand Jury


Law enforcement sources close to the ongoing investigation into Michael Jackson's death tell RadarOnline.com that the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office are "extremely likely to have a grand jury inpaneled to seek an indictment against Dr. Conrad Murray.


“This option is being heavily weighed by the office for several reasons. The grand jury meets in secret, and no one associated with the proceedings, including witnesses can discuss anything outside of the grand jury room.

“More importantly, if Dr. Conrad Murray is indicted, there will be no preliminary hearing, and this is often done in high profile cases in Los Angeles. If an indictment is handed down, it goes straight to arraignment, and then to trial. The potential jury pool couldn't be tainted by saturated media coverage of a preliminary hearing."

Grand juries could indict Dr. Murray on charges from second degree murder to involuntary manslaughter, or reject charges all together, although in Los Angeles, "grand juries are known to indict ham sandwiches" the law enforcement source says.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/09/exclusive-da-likely-send-case-against-dr-murray-grand-jury

[GentleBreeze]

He may be being just a typical defense attorney. On the other hand, he may think someone deliberately withheld information from the autopsy report that puts his client in a less nefarious light.

Oh he knows he will get it in due time and it will be after his client is arrested. He doesn't get to jump ahead of the line just because Murray is his client.

[warhorse46]

In this case, the doctor has admitted to what he gave Jackson. The coroner has ruled it a homicide. What's the hold up in this case? imo


Those are just two tiny steps in a complicated investigation. A solid case is not put together in just two steps.

[Imperfect4]

Oh he knows he will get it in due time and it will be after his client is arrested. He doesn't get to jump ahead of the line just because Murray is his client.

:confused: I didn't say anything about Chernoff getting the autopsy report ahead of time. I'm not following you.

[warhorse46]

There are no similarities in the charges they investigated in one case and the charge they are investigating in this case. I don't see how that could not be any more obvious. imo

Remember the coroner ruled accidental in the anna case. There is where the big difference is. imo


Yes there are differences in the two cases but I see similarities also. Especially in the investigative part.

[Imperfect4]

EXCLUSIVE: D.A. Likely To Send Case Against Dr. Murray To Grand Jury


Law enforcement sources close to the ongoing investigation into Michael Jackson's death tell RadarOnline.com that the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office are "extremely likely to have a grand jury inpaneled to seek an indictment against Dr. Conrad Murray.


“This option is being heavily weighed by the office for several reasons. The grand jury meets in secret, and no one associated with the proceedings, including witnesses can discuss anything outside of the grand jury room.

“More importantly, if Dr. Conrad Murray is indicted, there will be no preliminary hearing, and this is often done in high profile cases in Los Angeles. If an indictment is handed down, it goes straight to arraignment, and then to trial. The potential jury pool couldn't be tainted by saturated media coverage of a preliminary hearing."

Grand juries could indict Dr. Murray on charges from second degree murder to involuntary manslaughter, or reject charges all together, although in Los Angeles, "grand juries are known to indict ham sandwiches" the law enforcement source says.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/09/exclusive-da-likely-send-case-against-dr-murray-grand-jury

Great. More unnamed "sources close to the investigation."

[warhorse46]

Bolded to address. There's nothing clear about it at all. There is nothing so far to indicate Murray intended to harm MJ. Not a thing.




He certainly intended to give the cocktail of drugs that resulted in Jackson's death. That to me is reckless behavior.

[Imperfect4]

He certainly intended to give the cocktail of drugs that resulted in Jackson's death. That to me is reckless behavior.

Reckless behavior is different from intention to cause death.

[warhorse46]

I saw Dieter Wiesner's segment on ET tonight & he corroborated a statement I made earlier. He described how Jackson acted when he was informed of the search warrant being carried out @ Neverland. They were in Vegas @ the time. He said Jackson lost control, began trashing the hotel room & nobody could calm him down. They called Katherine who came to the room. She was able to calm Jackson then she began cleaning up the mess he had created. Weisner told her she did not have to do that, there were people who would do it. She replied, no I don't want anyone to know about this, I want it kept quiet. She cleaned up the room by herself so that hotel staff would never know & leak it to the public. Once again covering up for Michael's inappropriate behavior & shielding him. Enabling him to continue the same behavior.

[warhorse46]

It's true that some cases take a long time, but what else is there to discover about Murray's actions the day MJ died? They've found whatever there was to find at the house, Murray told them what drugs he administered and it seems to be confirmed by the tox report. They've searched Murray's homes, offices and storage, and still they don't have enough to charge him.

:shrug:


Sifting through all the evidence with a fine toothed comb takes time. They hauled out lots from the searches that have to be analyzed.

[warhorse46]

No way Dr M believed that it caused death nor harm. MJ had been using propofol nightly for the better part of a decade. He had been using Versed and injectible opiates and benzos for 20+ yrs. Dr M gave MJ, by his own admission, propofol for 6 weeks, every night.


A Dr should know that any drug has the potential to be lethal & surely knows combining drugs is VERY risky & likely to be fatal if continued over a long period of time. IMO he let his greed override his training.

[GentleBreeze]

----------------
And in all fairness a patient should be up front with their doctor by telling them what they r taking. I think MJ was taking meds that Dr. M. didn't know about. imo

But what if he wasn't and was only taking what Murray had given him?

Just seems like to me if he was taking all those drugs plus what Murray has already mentioned giving him then it wouldn't list the death as homicide by propofol intoxication and only list one other drug as contributing, which that drug too was one Murray said he gave him.

imo

[warhorse46]

Reckless behavior is different from intention to cause death.


Read the California statute on that, it fits.

[warhorse46]

----------------
So r u saying he wanted to kill MJ intentionally? imo




No, that is not what I said. Read the California definition of intent.

[Xenam]

I saw Dieter Wiesner's segment on ET tonight & he corroborated a statement I made earlier. He described how Jackson acted when he was informed of the search warrant being carried out @ Neverland. They were in Vegas @ the time. He said Jackson lost control, began trashing the hotel room & nobody could calm him down. They called Katherine who came to the room. She was able to calm Jackson then she began cleaning up the mess he had created. Weisner told her she did not have to do that, there were people who would do it. She replied, no I don't want anyone to know about this, I want it kept quiet. She cleaned up the room by herself so that hotel staff would never know & leak it to the public. Once again covering up for Michael's inappropriate behavior & shielding him. Enabling him to continue the same behavior.

Hi warhorse,

Not the same thing I just exactly heard. Weisner said MJ was crying; he was out of control and was trashing the room. KJ came over and talked to him; she believed in him and was able to calm him down. Then she started cleaning up the room and Weisner told her that there were other people who could take care of that and she said I don't want the world or the hotel people to see what he did. IMO in this case she was just being a mom. Weisner also said he had never seen this anger in MJ before.

[warhorse46]

----------------
And in all fairness a patient should be up front with their doctor by telling them what they r taking. I think MJ was taking meds that Dr. M. didnt know about. imo

You are surely right there, a patient should be truthful with their doctor about their medications.

[warhorse46]

Hi warhorse,

Not the same thing I just exactly heard. Weisner said MJ was crying; he was out of control and was trashing the room. KJ came over and talked to him; she believed in him and was able to calm him down. Then she started cleaning up the room and Weisner told her that there were other people who could take care of that and she said I don't want the world or the hotel people to see what he did. IMO in this case she was just being a mom. Weisner also said he had never seen this anger in MJ before.



Sometimes being a mom involves making your children take responsibility for their behavior, especially adult children, & not covering up for said behavior. Tough love. Not enable them to continue the inappropriate behavior.

[Xenam]

----------------
And in all fairness a patient should be up front with their doctor by telling them what they r taking. I think MJ was taking meds that Dr. M. didnt know about. imo

That is very true however I hope the Dr also told him that all the drugs he was about to give him could kill him if he had taken anything else. JMO

Although MJ is/was definitely a drug addict -- sorry but any Doctor should have said no period. I personally hold doctors to a higher standard than a street pusher or a drug addict. Every doctor involved in over prescribing drugs; administering unnecessary drugs and issuing prescriptions in others' names should be held responsible and accountable not just in MJ's case but in any case. All drug addicts think about is where there next fix is. JMHO

[Xenam]

Sometimes being a mom involves making your children take responsibility for their behavior, especially adult children, & not covering up for said behavior. Tough love. Not enable them to continue the inappropriate behavior.

No argument there warhorse. :) Seems he was surrounded with enablers more interested in the $ than the person.

[Xenam]

--------------------

My bolding

So if Mj wasnt honest with Murray, then whose fault is it? Surely not Murray.

Murray should have not sold himself out for hire period. Absolutely no excuse for any of doctor who does this and not just in MJ's case.
I have absolutely NO sympathy or respect for Dr. Murray. Nada, nil, none just as I have no respect or sympathy for a street pusher. He should be treated the same.
My compassion lies with the addict who cannot control himself - he/she is ill; been there, done that.

[Cindylee]

Sometimes being a mom involves making your children take responsibility for their behavior, especially adult children, & not covering up for said behavior. Tough love. Not enable them to continue the inappropriate behavior.

Truer words have never been spoken. If someone had stood up to MJ and all of his stuff.....he would maybe be alive today. None of his family or friends did him any favors.

[Cindylee]

Murray should have not sold himself out for hire period. Absolutely no excuse for any of doctor who does this and not just in MJ's case.
I have absolutely NO sympathy for Dr. Murray. Nada, nil, none.

No he shouldn't, and MJ shouldn't have been Dr. shopping. Two way street. Can't have one without the other.

[Xenam]

No he shouldn't, and MJ shouldn't have been Dr. shopping. Two way street. Can't have one without the other.

Well personally I hold Doctors to a higher standard -- they all should have said no and make counter offers of rehab just as his family should have stepped in and if nothing else removed his children until he completed rehab. Sorry like I said to buzz - been there; done that. Drug addicts don't think like a normal person would - all they think about is where their next fix is coming from and they DO require intervention; not enablers.

Goodnight all :seeya:

[Cindylee]

Well personally I hold Doctors to a higher standard -- they all should have said no and make counter offers of rehab just as his family should have stepped in and if nothing else removed his children until he completed rehab. Sorry like I said to buzz - been there; done that. Drug addicts don't think like a normal person would - all they think about is where their next fix is coming from and they DO require intervention; not enablers.

And probably a Dr. that has huge debt, and a bunch of kids that is offered the chance of a lifetime (his words) would have a hard time turning MJ down. It wasn't like the guy down the street asking him for some pills.

[Imperfect4]

Read the California statute on that, it fits.

If you're referring to Unperson's post a couple pages back, I did read it, and it doesn't fit that I can see. :huh:

[ResJudicata]

No, that is not what I said. Read the California definition of intent.


California Penal Code, Section 188: IMPLIED INTENT.

[Xenam]

And probably a Dr. that has huge debt, and a bunch of kids that is offered the chance of a lifetime (his words) would have a hard time turning MJ down. It wasn't like the guy down the street asking him for some pills.

Doesn't matter Cindy. This was a Doctor who was supposed to know better -- Money does not make a difference to a drug addict. Rich or poor - they only care about their next fix. Doctors do it with average citizens every single day especially the elderly. Over-prescribing drugs is an epidemic in our country and it has to STOP! I can only hope with ANS and MJ's death - it will be a start of major crackdowns. You cannot slap these doctors on the wrist and just hope it goes away. Ain't gonna happen.

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on this because I will only repeat myself

[ResJudicata]

II. Instruction on Murder

The trial court gave the pattern second degree murder instruction, CALCRIM No. 520.

The defendant is charged in Count One with Second Degree Murder, a violation of section 187(a) of the Penal Code.

To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:

1. The defendant committed an act that caused the death of another person;

AND

2. When the defendant acted, he had a state of mind called malice aforethought.

There are two kinds of malice aforethought, express malice and implied malice. Proof of either is sufficient to establish the state of mind required for murder.

The defendant acted with express malice if he unlawfully intended to kill.

The defendant acted with implied malice if:

1. He intentionally committed an act;

2. The natural consequences of the act were dangerous to human life;

3. At the time he acted, he knew his act was dangerous to human life;

AND

4. He deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life.


Malice aforethought does not require hatred or ill will toward the victim. It is a mental state that must be formed before the act that causes death is committed. It does not require deliberation or the passage of any particular period of time.

The trial court gave the following special instruction:

Implied Malice/Gross Negligence

The definitions of implied malice, and gross negligence, although bearing a general similarity, are not identical. Implied malice contemplates a subjective awareness of a higher degree of risk than does gross negligence, and involves an element of wantonness which is absent in gross negligence. An implied malice may be found when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart (PC 188), that is, when a defendant, knowing that his conduct endangers life and with a conscious disregard of the danger, commits an act the natural consequences of which are dangerous to human life. Gross Negligence as defined in jury instruction 590 requires an objective test, that is, would a reasonable person in the defendants position have been aware of the risk involved.

http://www.fearnotlaw.com/articles/article27431.html

[Cindylee]

Doesn't matter Cindy. This was a Doctor who was supposed to know better -- Money does not make a difference to a drug addict. Rich or poor - they only care about their next fix. Doctors do it with average citizens every single day especially the elderly.

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on this because I will only repeat myself.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that Dr. M made a huge mistake for money, but you can't discount the addicts role in things....for whatever reason they are using. Rich (MJ) had so many more advantages to get help, and he had the money to buy a Dr. He chose that road.

[Xenam]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that Dr. M made a huge mistake for money, but you can't discount the addicts role in things....for whatever reason they are using. Rich (MJ) had so many more advantages to get help, and he had the money to buy a Dr. He chose that road.

The only difference with the rich is he had a private physician that catered to him for all the wrong reasons and if someone intervened he would have been in a better rehab. I just can't stress enough that a drug addict has NO CONTROL - rich or poor.

For real -- goodnight. This is my opinion and like I said been too deeply involved with a drug addict and will never change my mind.
They are SICK -- they do not think like someone with a rational, logical mind. They just don't. They can't see what we see.

Hope I can find a good comedy on TV -- :)

[Cindylee]

The only difference with the rich is he had a private physician that catered to him for all the wrong reasons and if someone intervened he would have been in a better rehab. I just can't stress enough that a drug addict has NO CONTROL - rich or poor.

Of course he would have been better off in rehab....he would be alive. He chose to buy a Dr. No one, not the Dr. or any of his "friends" could help him. The Dr. was wrong, and is and will pay for how he contributed, but I am not buying the "NO CONTROL" excuse either. If that were true, no addict would ever get clean.

[Imperfect4]

<snipped for space>

http://www.fearnotlaw.com/articles/article27431.html

Thanks for that.

Imo, accusing Murray of implied malice requires drawing conclusions about Murray's state of mind, specifically whether he meets numbers 3) and 4) of the criteria.

We don't know that he knew his act was dangerous to human life. And we don't know that he deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life.

We don't know what he knew about his actions at the time, and we certainly don't know that he disregarded MJ's life.

[Imperfect4]

Of course he would have been better off in rehab....he would be alive. He chose to buy a Dr. No one, not the Dr. or any of his "friends" could help him. The Dr. was wrong, and is and will pay for how he contributed, but I am not buying the "NO CONTROL" excuse either. If that were true, no addict would ever get clean.

I can't buy it either, for exactly the same reason you noted.

[ResJudicata]

----------------------

If they had as much evidence against Murray as some want to believe, then they wouldnt need a grand jury. He would have already been arrested. imo


Here is some info re: California Grand Jury


Prosecution by Information and Indictment: A Comparison

In a prosecution by information, California law requires that there be an independent evidentiary determination of probable cause in an adversary proceeding before trial [46] but no equivalent right is granted to an accused who is prosecuted by grand jury indictment. Where an indictment is issued by the grand jury, the accused is not afforded the safeguard of an independent judicial evaluation of the evidence.

Indictment by grand jury affords none of the fundamental rights provided in a preliminary examination.[47] Unless he is called as a witness, the defendant has neither the right to appear and present evidence to the grand jury nor to confront witnesses against him [48] Only the district attorney, the attorney general or special counsel may appear and present evidence.[49] Even if called as a witness, a defendant may not have the assistance of counsel to advise him.[50] Although the grand jury may require the district attorney to issue process for defense witnesses when it "has reason to believe that such evidence exists,²[51] this provision is of little practical value since the proceedings are held in secret with no notice to a defendant. Furthermore, as indicate by the opening statement of Penal Code Section 939.7, the grand jury is "not required to hear evidence for the defendant," and thus may reject such evidence at the very outset [52] Without hearing the evidence in the first place, the opportunity to determine whether evidence exists to "explain away the charge" is in effect foreclosed, virtually assuring the finding of an indictment under Penal Code Section 939.8 on the basis of "unexplained or uncontradicted" evidence.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:ewy4Ru_1j4oJ:www.consumerlawpage.co m/article/grand.shtml+grand+jury+verses+preliminary+hearing+ in+california&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&ie=UTF-8


It is my opinon that if the Grand Jury is the deciding factor in the filing of charges, Murry will be indicted. It's also my opinion that the use of a grand jury is unfair and one sided against the potential defendant.

[ResJudicata]

Thanks for that.

Imo, accusing Murray of implied malice requires drawing conclusions about Murray's state of mind, specifically whether he meets numbers 3) and 4) of the criteria.

We don't know that he knew his act was dangerous to human life. And we don't know that he deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life.

We don't know what he knew about his actions at the time, and we certainly don't know that he disregarded MJ's life.


The reasonable person is a legal fiction of the common law representing an objective standard against which any individual's conduct can be measured. It is used to determine if a breach of the standard of care has occurred, provided a duty of care can be proven.

The reasonable person standard holds: each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.[1][2] While the specific circumstances of each case will require varying kinds of conduct and degrees of care, the reasonable person standard undergoes no variation itself.[3][4]

Medical professionals

In the realm of healthcare, plaintiffs must prove via expert testimony the standard of medical care owed and a departure from that standard. The only exception to the requirement of expert testimony is where the departure from accepted medical practices was so egregious that a layperson can readily recognize the departure.[20]

However, controversial medical practices can be deemed reasonable when followed by a respected and reputable minority of the medical field,[21] or where the medical profession cannot agree over which practices are best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

[warhorse46]

And probably a Dr. that has huge debt, and a bunch of kids that is offered the chance of a lifetime (his words) would have a hard time turning MJ down. It wasn't like the guy down the street asking him for some pills.




Said doctor should not let the dollar signs blind him to his Hippocratic Oath either. IMO both men are culpable in this death but more so the doctor than MJ.

[daniel green]

I saw Dieter Wiesner's segment on ET tonight & he corroborated a statement I made earlier. He described how Jackson acted when he was informed of the search warrant being carried out @ Neverland. They were in Vegas @ the time. He said Jackson lost control, began trashing the hotel room & nobody could calm him down. They called Katherine who came to the room. She was able to calm Jackson then she began cleaning up the mess he had created. Weisner told her she did not have to do that, there were people who would do it. She replied, no I don't want anyone to know about this, I want it kept quiet. She cleaned up the room by herself so that hotel staff would never know & leak it to the public. Once again covering up for Michael's inappropriate behavior & shielding him. Enabling him to continue the same behavior.

Yeah, Warhorse. I saw that and thought the very same thing.

[warhorse46]

Thanks for that.

Imo, accusing Murray of implied malice requires drawing conclusions about Murray's state of mind, specifically whether he meets numbers 3) and 4) of the criteria.

We don't know that he knew his act was dangerous to human life. And we don't know that he deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life.

We don't know what he knew about his actions at the time, and we certainly don't know that he disregarded MJ's life.


He acted with a conscious disregard for human life if he walked out of the room before MJ was awake & certainly when he delayed calling 911 & when he chose to preform cpr in an incorrect manner. He of all people knows the emergency protocol when a person is in full cardiac & respiratory arrest.

[Cindylee]

Said doctor should not let the dollar signs blind him to his Hippocratic Oath either. IMO both men are culpable in this death but more so the doctor than MJ.

I agree. I just get tired of people giving a pass to MJ.

[daniel green]

I've already said the following some time ago:

Xanax is a drug of the benzodiazepine class. Strong addicts to illegal drugs use benzodiapine as a substitute drug. Benzodiazepine in high dosages makes the addicts aggressive (specially if combined with alcohol) and the people can't produce coherent speech anymore; it hasn't a sedative effect as one would think. About 10 pills is a high dosage for a STRONG addict. Another poster here at the board confirmed what I've said. She (?) said she knew someone addicted to Xanax; with 5 pills the person was high like a kite according to the poster's statement.

Imo there's no way Michael Jackson could have taken as many pills as it was claimed by some media.

I hate to break this to you, but I have previously posted about my experience sitting in the waiting room in county detox and how a young man from Duke had rolled his car over several trimes, drunk, and miraculously been unhurt. The police brought him to detox. Right there, in front of my eyes, he told me about taking upward for 10-20 xanax/day and--because he had not had them in the last 48 hrs, had seizures right there in the waiting room.

[ResJudicata]

I agree. I just get tired of people giving a pass to MJ.


Michael is dead. He got no free pass this time. What about people giving a free pass to Murray, who at least still has his life?

[daniel green]

snipped

All I am saying is Dr. Murray did something to put his patient at risk..sans (without) having necessary equipment necessary to maintain life..and for that reason alone he is culpable for a homicide..the investigation will bring to light to just what level he is to be charged for...

.

Not having something you believe to be necessary medical equipment--which, btw, several of us have been told by ppl who administer propofol is not needed--does not make him culpable of a homicide.

[ResJudicata]

I hate to break this to you, but I have previously posted about my experience sitting in the waiting room in county detox and how a young man from Duke had rolled his car over several trimes, drunk, and miraculously been unhurt. The police brought him to detox. Right there, in front of my eyes, he told me about taking upward for 10-20 xanax/day and--because he had not had them in the last 48 hrs, had seizures right there in the waiting room.


That really has nothing to do with MJ. You can't say with any independant knowledge what level of tolerance to drugs MJ had. Even if Michael had taken a lot of pills, the empty bottles were right there, and Murray went ahead and injected him with more. It has always bothered me that all the pill bottles were empty, and seems staged to me.

[ResJudicata]

Not having something you believe to be necessary medical equipment--which, btw, several of us have been told by ppl who administer propofol is not needed--does not make him culpable of a homicide.


Do you happen to have any link to a medical professional that administers propofol stating that life saving equipment is not necessary?

[daniel green]

I watched the Patrick Zwayze special tonight with Barbara Walters, may he RIP. I did not realize before then that Kenny Ortega (This is IT) choreographed Dirty Dancing. He called Zwayze "one of the most influential dancers of our time."

[BOZGAL2]

Do you happen to have any link to a medical professional that administers propofol stating that life saving equipment is not necessary?

I would like to see a link as well. Every DR and Nurse I have questioned about administering Diprivan assures me the proper medical/life saving equipment is necessary. And I certainly believe my sources.

JMO

[February]

I watched the Patrick Zwayze special tonight with Barbara Walters, may he RIP. I did not realize before then that Kenny Ortega (This is IT) choreographed Dirty Dancing. He called Zwayze "one of the most influential dancers of our time."


PS's mom was a dance instructor. She taught Debbie Allen also. Patrick and Debbie were friends for a while.
But no one danced like Michael.

[Cindylee]

I think Patrick Swayze was a much better dancer than MJ. More versatile and well rounded. He could sing better too. MJ had his own style, but, many, many dancers were better than MJ, IMO.

[February]

I think Patrick Swayze was a much better dancer than MJ. More versatile and well rounded. He could sing better too.

MJ was a tap dancer, moonwalker, robot-dancer, r&B moves, ballet movements, break dancer, danced in the WIZ as the scarecrow.
Patrick did Dirty Dancing. Never knew he sang. LOL What did he sing? Did he win grammy's? Michael won 8 grammy's in one night.

[Lainey]

I just watched Oprahs Michael special followed by Madonnas VMA speech on my DVR. It's so sad. :crying:

RIP Michael. I'll keep your children in my prayers.

[Firehead11]

I think Patrick Swayze was a much better dancer than MJ. More versatile and well rounded. He could sing better too.


Wow, as much as I like Swayze, I would never say he was a better dancer or singer than Jackson. However, he was a very fine actor and danced great. Just as Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Gregory Hines.. they all had their own style.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Xenam]

Drug Addiction and the Brain:

The Science Behind the Treatment of Drug Addiction
At one time, drug addiction was viewed as a failure of willpower or a flaw of moral character. It was not recognized as a disease of the brain, in the same way that mental illnesses previously were not viewed as such. Medical authorities have now accepted drug addiction as a chronic, relapsing condition that alters normal brain function, just as any other neurological or psychiatric illness. Its development and expression are influenced by genetic, biological, psychosocial, and environmental factors. Outwardly, drug addiction is often characterized by impaired control over continued drug use, compulsive use despite harmful consequences, and/or intolerable drug craving.

http://www.sccgov.org/SCC/docs/Alcohol%20&%20Drug%20Services,%20Department%20of%20(DEP)/attachments/Addictions_Treatment.doc.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/drug-addiction-brain

http://www.addictionscience.net/ASNprimer.htm

[GentleBreeze]

I think this is going to be the clincher for Murray.

"Gross Negligence as defined in jury instruction 590 requires an objective test, that is, would a reasonable person in the defendants position have been aware of the risk involved."

He wasn't just a layperson who may not know the difference. FGS! This man had been a licensed doctor for 20 years.

Imo, there is no reputable doctor going to testify that what Murray did was reasonable. This defendant wont be just any defendant but a licensed doctor. That makes this issue of gross negligence more believable. He broke his Hippocratic oath and left it in tatters. His standard of care was appalling. I have not heard one doctor take up for CM nor that what he did was acceptable standard of care.

I think they are going to find that Murray in the past had befriended others he knew who were addicted to drugs. Supplying drugs to an addict who cant stop their craving is nothing but a money train that never stops unless the addict dies.

The addiction has been hand fed to addicts for so many years by the license drug pushers. There is no incentive for the addict to overcome because they know there is alway a Doc. Feel Good out there that is going to say "yes" for a price.

One thing I have wondered about is why is Murray broke in the first place? This man had been a doctor for years and had two offices. Was he addicted to gambling in the casinos? Was he spending lavish money on one of his ladies or the mother of some of his children?
Something isn't right imo. Drs who have established practices are usually pretty well financial secure after this many years and his financial decline seems to have happened in the last few years. Was it because the James Brown money wasnt coming in anymore?

MJ paid the ultimate price for his addiction and for years no doctor did the right thing. They are the ones that addicted him in the first place and then they took that vulnerability and milked it for all the millions they could over the years. No one knows better than they do if you dangle drugs in front of an addict they will always reach out to take them and they know they can name their price especially if the addict has loads of money to be taken.


imo

[PointQueen]

I watched the Patrick Zwayze special tonight with Barbara Walters, may he RIP. I did not realize before then that Kenny Ortega (This is IT) choreographed Dirty Dancing. He called Zwayze "one of the most influential dancers of our time."

Patrick Zwayze was a classically trained dancer from little boy on up. His mother was a dancer and choreographer. There is no comparison between him and Jackson.

May Patrick Zwayze rest in peace.:rose:

[PointQueen]

I think this is going to be the clincher for Murray.

"Gross Negligence as defined in jury instruction 590 requires an objective test, that is, would a reasonable person in the defendants position have been aware of the risk involved."

He wasn't just a layperson who may not know the difference. FGS! This man had been a licensed doctor for 20 years.

Imo, there is no reputable doctor going to testify that what Murray did was reasonable. This defendant wont be just any defendant but a licensed doctor. That makes this issue of gross negligence more believable. He broke his Hippocratic oath and left it in tatters. His standard of care was appalling. I have not heard one doctor take up for CM nor that what he did was acceptable standard of care.

I think they are going to find that Murray in the past had befriended others he knew who were addicted to drugs. Supplying drugs to an addict who cant stop their craving is nothing but a money train that never stops unless the addict dies.

The addiction has been hand fed to addicts for so many years by the license drug pushers. There is no incentive for the addict to overcome because they know there is alway a Doc. Feel Good out there that is going to say "yes" for a price.

One thing I have wondered about is why is Murray broke in the first place? This man had been a doctor for years and had two offices. Was he addicted to gambling in the casinos? Was he spending lavish money on one of his ladies or the mother of some of his children?
Something isn't right imo. Drs who have established practices are usually pretty well financial secure after this many years and his financial decline seems to have happened in the last few years. Was it because the James Brown money wasnt coming in anymore?

MJ paid the ultimate price for his addiction and for years no doctor did the right thing. They are the ones that addicted him in the first place and then they took that vulnerability and milked it for all the millions they could over the years. No one knows better than they do if you dangle drugs in front of an addict they will always reach out to take them and they know they can name their price especially if the addict has loads of money to be taken.


imo

bolding mine

Not hardly. Jackson was an addict by his own choice. He was in no way an innocent victim of bad doctors. IMO

[Firehead11]

As a mom, I am offended by that statement. As a mother, my mind would NEVER jump to covering up my child's misdeeds. Especially, if I believed he was innocent and had nothing to hide in the first place.

I could be wrong but I believe that your children are not in the spotlight of the world.

Do you know what his mother said to him when they were alone? Do you know if she corrected him?

What would have been gained if she let the room be a mess and let others clean it up? That people would find out that Jackson had a temper?

[warhorse46]

Not having something you believe to be necessary medical equipment--which, btw, several of us have been told by ppl who administer propofol is not needed--does not make him culpable of a homicide.


I don't know who is telling you this but they are absolutely wrong. From the label of the drug.
<<Sedated patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, providing artificial ventilation, administering supplemental oxygen, and instituting cardiovascular resuscitation must be immediately available.
http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm# >>

What that paragraph means is that a ventilator, ET tray, O2 & defib machine are to be in the room with the sedated patient.

[Poochie Pie]

I don't know who is telling you this but they are absolutely wrong. From the label of the drug.
<<Sedated patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, providing artificial ventilation, administering supplemental oxygen, and instituting cardiovascular resuscitation must be immediately available.
http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm# >>

What that paragraph means is that a ventilator, ET tray, O2 & defib machine are to be in the room with the sedated patient. Thank you, warhorse..!! Most of us are aware of your extensive experience in the medical field and I am so glad you brought this up... I am not "out to get" Dr. Murray, but there is just absolutely NO getting around the fact that he was negligent in the administration of this deadly drug, IMO... It is also mo that he failed miserably to summon emergency assistance for his patient after he saw that he was in distress.

Poochie

[ResJudicata]

She could have said, You better get moving cleaning up this mess you made, unless you want it all over the news.

If I had just learned that 70 police officers were trashing my beautiful home, and violating my privacy in such a gross way, I'd probably lose my temper too. Especially knowing I was innocent.

[Eagleeye]

Oh my gosh.......I don't know who is making me sicker.

I have on "The View"....which I can't stomach to begin with..........

I can't believe the way Latoya is talking up Joe and going on and on about how close MJ and his father was.......eyeroll........... Or Barbra Walters lapping it up.

One must consider that LaToya is working on another fifteen minutes of fame and Ba Ba Wa Wa is working on her last fifteen minutes. :wink:

[Xenam]

bolding mine

Not hardly. Jackson was an addict by his own choice. He was in no way an innocent victim of bad doctors. IMO

People do not CHOOSE to be addicts; no more than a person with a mental illness "chooses" to be mentally ill. :rolleyes:

[Roxxanne]

One must consider that LaToya is working on another fifteen minutes of fame and Ba Ba Wa Wa is working on her last fifteen minutes. :wink:

Oh lord, that made me laugh :laugh:

[Cindylee]

One must consider that LaToya is working on another fifteen minutes of fame and Ba Ba Wa Wa is working on her last fifteen minutes. :wink:

Good one. :laugh::laugh:

[daniel green]

Patrick Zwayze was a classically trained dancer from little boy on up. His mother was a dancer and choreographer. There is no comparison between him and Jackson.

May Patrick Zwayze rest in peace.:rose:

PZ, may he RIP, was a gifted dancer, and--as you mention--trained in ballet. What a graceful, gorgeous dancer. He even danced with Barishnikov.

[daniel green]

People do not CHOOSE to be addicts; no more than a person with a mental illness "chooses" to be mentally ill. :rolleyes:

People don't choose to have diabetis, either, but one chooses to treat it and live a healthier life style.

[warhorse46]

If I had just learned that 70 police officers were trashing my beautiful home, and violating my privacy in such a gross way, I'd probably lose my temper too. Especially knowing I was innocent.


I would likely be upset too but I would not throw a temper tantrum like a two year old. I would act like a responsible adult, say ok this is happening & I can do nothing to stop it, so what legal avenues do I have to resolve the problem.

[daniel green]

As a mom, I am offended by that statement. As a mother, my mind would NEVER jump to covering up my child's misdeeds. Especially, if I believed he was innocent and had nothing to hide in the first place.

As a mom of 5 and grandma to three I can guarantee you that if my grown adult son were trashing a hotel room, I would not be cleaning it up so nobody knew. Heck, if my 14 yr old trashed a hotel room, she would most certainly face the music on her own.

[ResJudicata]

PZ, may he RIP, was a gifted dancer, and--as you mention--trained in ballet. What a graceful, gorgeous dancer. He even danced with Barishnikov.


I think there is a Patrick thread. This thread is to discuss how beautifully MJ danced. TIA

[daniel green]

I would likely be upset too but I would not throw a temper tantrum like a two year old. I would act like a responsible adult, say ok this is happening & I can do nothing to stop it, so what legal avenues do I have to resolve the problem.

No kidding, WH.

[MK~ULTRA]

snipped

This thread is to discuss how beautifully MJ danced. TIA

This is the 'how beautifully MJ danced' thread? News to me. Someone should get the thread title changed.

[daniel green]

snipped This thread is to discuss how beautifully MJ danced. TIA

No, it's not.:rolleyes:

I found it very interesting that the choreographer of This is It was the same choreographer of Dirty Dancing and he was on tv last night saying that PZ, may he RIP, was one of the most influential dancers of our time.

[ResJudicata]

I would likely be upset too but I would not throw a temper tantrum like a two year old. I would act like a responsible adult, say ok this is happening & I can do nothing to stop it, so what legal avenues do I have to resolve the problem.


If he had it to do over MJ probably would have done it differently. By the way, I have appreciated your professional expertise on the drug propofol.

[Eagleeye]

I would likely be upset too but I would not throw a temper tantrum like a two year old. I would act like a responsible adult, say ok this is happening & I can do nothing to stop it, so what legal avenues do I have to resolve the problem.

I think that he was more upset about what they were about to find than the fact they trashed his home and from what I have seen much of MJ's private space was a pig pen anyway.

[ResJudicata]

No, it's not.:rolleyes:

I found it very interesting that the choreographer of This is It was the same choreographer of Dirty Dancing and he was on tv last night saying that PZ, may he RIP, was one of the most influential dancers of our time.


What is your purpose posting about Patrick S on this thread, instead of the thread designated for him? I guess since both of them were the most influential dancers of our time, although MJ was the ultimate superstar, there is a hint of similiarities.

[Firehead11]

I would likely be upset too but I would not throw a temper tantrum like a two year old. I would act like a responsible adult, say ok this is happening & I can do nothing to stop it, so what legal avenues do I have to resolve the problem.

I really don't know what I would do but do we even know if this is true or just a story that DW made up?

[daniel green]

I don't know who is telling you this but they are absolutely wrong.
snipped.

WH, back when there was an MJ Forum, some posters--without any medical experience of knowledge about administering this anesthetic--began posting that Dr M had not had the necessary "tubing." That became one of those bad facts that infect forums, repeated over and over as if truth.

Turns out that Dr M was indeed monitoring MJ with a pulse-ox machine, had oxygen in the room, etc. We absolutely DO NOT KNOW if he did not have something else there.

Cindy talked to a nurse friend who is very familiear with the administration of diprivan and I spoke to an anesthesiologist who cleared things up.

Of course, the whole thing about adminestering this anesthesia at home is insane.

I watched a Big Medicine show last night on Disc Health and one of the patients was awake and the gastroenterologist himself pushed in the diprivan and said "Here comes the good stuff," as he did it. I found that very interesting, seeing it done.

[ResJudicata]

I think that he was more upset about what they were about to find than the fact they trashed his home and from what I have seen much of MJ's private space was a pig pen anyway.

You would think that the 70 officers would have been able to find at least something which would promote their endeavors, but because MJ was innocent, there would be no damning evidence to be found.

Its funny how you refer to having seen much of his private space, that really wasn't so private afterall.

[ResJudicata]

WH, back when there was an MJ Forum, some posters--without any medical experience of knowledge about administering this anesthetic--began posting that Dr M had not had the necessary "tubing." That became one of those bad facts that infect forums, repeated over and over as if truth.

Turns out that Dr M was indeed monitoring MJ with a pulse-ox machine, had oxygen in the room, etc. We absolutely DO NOT KNOW if he did not have something else there.

Cindy talked to a nurse friend who is very familiear with the administration of diprivan and I spoke to an anesthesiologist who cleared things up.

Of course, the whole thing about adminestering this anesthesia at home is insane.

I watched a Big Medicine show last night on Disc Health and one of the patients was awake and the gastroenterologist himself pushed in the diprivan and said "Here comes the good stuff," as he did it. I found that very interesting, seeing it done.

Why did MJ stop breathing and why didnt Murray use the equipment available to save him?

[PointQueen]

Why did MJ stop breathing and why didnt Murray use the equipment available to save him?

Do you know what went on in that room before the EMTs arrived? The answer to that is you don't. We do know Murray started chest compressions. The EMTs got there very fast once MJ was discovered not breathing. imo

[ResJudicata]

Do you know what went on in that room before the EMTs arrived? The answer to that is you don't. We do know Murray started chest compressions. The EMTs got there very fast once MJ was discovered not breathing. imo

If I had to guess I would say a lot of covering up of a crime went on in that room before EMT's arrived. I understand whatever CPR attempts made by Murray, were done incorrectly and of no value to MJ. And... the EMT's deserve praise for their speedy arrival, unfortunately Murray had delayed calling them by at least 70 minutes, up to several hours after Michael was already dead.

[Firehead11]

WH, back when there was an MJ Forum, some posters--without any medical experience of knowledge about administering this anesthetic--began posting that Dr M had not had the necessary "tubing." That became one of those bad facts that infect forums, repeated over and over as if truth.

Turns out that Dr M was indeed monitoring MJ with a pulse-ox machine, had oxygen in the room, etc. We absolutely DO NOT KNOW if he did not have something else there.

Cindy talked to a nurse friend who is very familiear with the administration of diprivan and I spoke to an anesthesiologist who cleared things up.

Of course, the whole thing about adminestering this anesthesia at home is insane.

I watched a Big Medicine show last night on Disc Health and one of the patients was awake and the gastroenterologist himself pushed in the diprivan and said "Here comes the good stuff," as he did it. I found that very interesting, seeing it done.

And there were people that had medical experiences that still said that Murray needed more than pulse-ox machine and oxygen. My own friend who is a cardiac transport nurse stated that from what she has seen and heard, there is no way that he was equipted well enough to deal with any emergency that might (and did) happen.

Jackson is dead. Murray contributed to that death. I do not see what is so hard to understand about that.

[MK~ULTRA]

snipped

Jackson is dead. Murray contributed to that death. I do not see what is so hard to understand about that.

Jackson is dead. Michael Jackson contributed to his own death. I do not see what is so hard to understand about that.

[PointQueen]

If I had to guess I would say a lot of covering up of a crime went on in that room before EMT's arrived. I understand whatever CPR attempts made by Murray, were done incorrectly and of no value to MJ. And... the EMT's deserve praise for their speedy arrival, unfortunately Murray had delayed calling them by at least 70 minutes, up to several hours after Michael was already dead.

Common sense tells us that can't possibly be true or the EMTs and ER doctors would not have worked on MJ at all. He would have been too long dead and they would have known that. moo

[Cindylee]

And there were people that had medical experiences that still said that Murray needed more than pulse-ox machine and oxygen. My own friend who is a cardiac transport nurse stated that from what she has seen and heard, there is no way that he was equipted well enough to deal with any emergency that might (and did) happen.

Jackson is dead. Murray contributed to that death. I do not see what is so hard to understand about that.

It will be interesting to hear what exactly he did have in the room. The oxygen isn't going to do any good if he didn't have the ambu bag. Just as the pulse ox isn't going to do any good if he wasn't paying attention. I am not giving Murray a pass on anything. I think he was an idiot for messing with the Propofol. He had no business giving this drug in a home setting.

[Cindylee]

Jackson is dead. Michael Jackson contributed to his own death. I do not see what is so hard to understand about that. That is very true too.

[MK~ULTRA]

Common sense tells us that can't possibly be true or the EMTs and ER doctors would not have worked on MJ at all. He would have been too long dead and they would have known that. moo

Unfortunately, common sense is all too uncommon these days.

Evidently.

[PointQueen]

And there were people that had medical experiences that still said that Murray needed more than pulse-ox machine and oxygen. My own friend who is a cardiac transport nurse stated that from what she has seen and heard, there is no way that he was equipted well enough to deal with any emergency that might (and did) happen.

Jackson is dead. Murray contributed to that death. I do not see what is so hard to understand about that.

I always had one of those things clipped to my finger before surgery. It must be enough if it is used in hospitals. jmo

[ResJudicata]

Common sense tells us that can't possibly be true or the EMTs and ER doctors would not have worked on MJ at all. He would have been too long dead and they would have known that. moo


I think we've been through this before. You think MJ was alive until 2:30 pm, and I don't. I believe the EMT's account that MJ was already dead upon their arrival. You believe the tv guide channel that he wasn't. I also believe he shouldn't have been dead to begin with, and any chance to save him was lost in the 70 minutes Murray spent on the phone chatting it up with 3 mystery people.

[daniel green]

It will be interesting to hear what exactly he did have in the room. The oxygen isn't going to do any good if he didn't have the ambu bag. .

There was an ambu bag right there in the picture of the bed.

You know, even in the best of circumstances, in an OR, a patient dies because of anesthesia. That is what makes surgery most dangerous--is the anesthesia. It's why anesthesiologists have to pay the most for malpractice insurance.

[Cindylee]

If I had to guess I would say a lot of covering up of a crime went on in that room before EMT's arrived. I understand whatever CPR attempts made by Murray, were done incorrectly and of no value to MJ. And... the EMT's deserve praise for their speedy arrival, unfortunately Murray had delayed calling them by at least 70 minutes, up to several hours after Michael was already dead.

If he was trying to cover up a crime, he didn't do a very good job of it. Why didn't he get rid of the propofol? Why didn't he get rid of the IV bag and pole. At the beginning everyone was saying that the coroner was looking at Demerol.....no one said anything about the propofol. I think that first came out when the nurse started talking about it. It was even a question if they would find any evidence of propofol in his body because it doesn't last long. But, Dr. Murray himself told the LAPD about giving him the drug. Not a very good cover up.....IMO.

[ResJudicata]

I always had one of those things clipped to my finger before surgery. It must be enough if it is used in hospitals. jmo


I bet that hospital had a lot more equipment than just the thing you clip to your finger.

[PointQueen]

It will be interesting to hear what exactly he did have in the room. The oxygen isn't going to do any good if he didn't have the ambu bag. Just as the pulse ox isn't going to do any good if he wasn't paying attention. I am not giving Murray a pass on anything. I think he was an idiot for messing with the Propofol. He had no business giving this drug in a home setting.

But it wasn't illegal to use it in a home setting. That's a fact that can't be changed in looking at criminal charges. imo

[ResJudicata]

There was an ambu bag right there in the picture of the bed.


snipped

It's why anesthesiologists have to pay the most for malpractice insurance.


They have to pay malpractice insurance because of incompetent and reckless doctors, who cause unnecessary deaths, like Murray did.

[daniel green]

snipped I believe the EMT's account that MJ was already dead upon their arrival..

No EMT has ever given an account of what happened. In fact, in the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests, which is the only account by and of the EMTs says nothing of the sort.

However, according to the Fire Cpt in charge of the EMTs that day, who spoke on the show about MJ's death, they did not find a dead person. The EMTs and the ER doc were in communicationg, they were stabalizing the patient for transport, took him to the ER, where the trauma docs worked on him for over an hour.

[PointQueen]

I bet that hospital had a lot more equipment than just the thing you clip to your finger.

And we don't know what other equipment was present in that room either. imo

[Cindylee]

There was an ambu bag right there in the picture of the bed.

You know, even in the best of circumstances, in an OR, a patient dies because of anesthesia. That is what makes surgery most dangerous--is the anesthesia. It's why anesthesiologists have to pay the most for malpractice insurance.

Yes, there was. It has been said that it was left by the EMT's. But, why would they use more than one, I don't know. Dr. M very well could have had it. I have no idea what he had or didn't have. It will be interesting to find out.

[Firehead11]

I always had one of those things clipped to my finger before surgery. It must be enough if it is used in hospitals. jmo

You are kidding right?

[daniel green]

But it wasn't illegal to use it in a home setting. That's a fact that can't be changed in looking at criminal charges. imo

Yep.

And one cannot change the fact that MJ had diprivan at home for a decade and for 6 wks with this very doctor.

[Cindylee]

But it wasn't illegal to use it in a home setting. That's a fact that can't be changed in looking at criminal charges. imo No, maybe not criminal, just really stupid.

[daniel green]

Yes, there was. It has been said that it was left by the EMT's. But, why would they use more than one, I don't know. Dr. M very well could have had it. I have no idea what he had or didn't have. It will be interesting to find out.

It has been said HERE, by a couple of posters, that it was left by the EMTs. But that was just an opinion. I have never known EMTs to leave behind any equipment, even disposable.

[PointQueen]

No, maybe not criminal, just really stupid.

But if that's the case it would be malpractice, if that, which isn't criminal.
imo

[Firehead11]

If he was trying to cover up a crime, he didn't do a very good job of it. Why didn't he get rid of the propofol? Why didn't he get rid of the IV bag and pole. At the beginning everyone was saying that the coroner was looking at Demerol.....no one said anything about the propofol. I think that first came out when the nurse started talking about it. It was even a question if they would find any evidence of propofol in his body because it doesn't last long. But, Dr. Murray himself told the LAPD about giving him the drug. Not a very good cover up.....IMO.

There are a lot of thngs that happened and we do not know but I think he was trying to cover his arse as much as possible. From what we have been told he did NOT tell the ER staff all the drugs he had given Jackson. Why not?

[ResJudicata]

No EMT has ever given an account of what happened. In fact, in the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests, which is the only account by and of the EMTs says nothing of the sort.

However, according to the Fire Cpt in charge of the EMTs that day, who spoke on the show about MJ's death, they did not find a dead person. The EMTs and the ER doc were in communicationg, they were stabalizing the patient for transport, took him to the ER, where the trauma docs worked on him for over an hour.


Its really good to know that MJ was able to enjoy that scenic drive to the hospital. Since Murray himself claimed Mj stopped breathing sometime before his trip to the hospital, I wonder how long someone can survive without any oxygen? It must be a miracle of sorts, that MJ went without oxygen for so long before he finally died.

[PointQueen]

It has been said HERE, by a couple of posters, that it was left by the EMTs. But that was just an opinion. I have never known EMTs to leave behind any equipment, even disposable.

Nor have I because once it is used it becomes bio-hazardous and must be disposed of properly. imo

[Firehead11]

I think another thing people are forgetting is that Murray was not trained as an anesthesiologist and should not have been giving this drug at all.

[daniel green]

Nor have I because once it is used it becomes bio-hazardous and must be disposed of properly. imo

Exactly!!!!

And they count all supplies/equipment.