Michael Jackson 9/16 [Archive] - Page 3 - In Session Message Boards

Firehead11

09-19-2009, 11:52 AM

FH, I guess one should consider the "source". Wasn't it said at first that Dr. Murray gave MJ sedatives (sleeping meds) for most of the evening and they weren't working? Then IIRC, MJ asked for Propofol somewhere around 10:00 am and that he gave MJ the Propofol. No link, just what I thought I read somewhere. And the rest is history.

I believe that the only place we heard anything about how much drugs, time line, etc came from the search warrant application originally. It is Murray that is supposely stating that Jackson begged for more, Jackson wasn't sleeping.. on and on. I do wonder why some use a portion of that statement to back up their opinion but do not use other portions of it. :confused:

Firehead11

09-19-2009, 11:56 AM

There could be, but I doubt it would be ruled a homicide if it were a death caused by natural causes, such as organ damage, etc...

To Be honest Res, she should bring up her points and request an outside agency handle the estate. I understand her concerns but it is looking like she is being real greedy right now. Hell I even think that the executors are allowing way too much money to go towards the support of that household. Why should Jacksons estate pay for Jermaine ex wife and children living there? Where does the money for the Begas house come from?

GentleBreeze

09-19-2009, 01:09 PM

To Be honest Res, she should bring up her points and request an outside agency handle the estate. I understand her concerns but it is looking like she is being real greedy right now. Hell I even think that the executors are allowing way too much money to go towards the support of that household. Why should Jacksons estate pay for Jermaine ex wife and children living there? Where does the money for the Begas house come from?

She is not going to be able to prove MJ incompetent imo.

And the only way a Judge would remove those who MJ wanted to be over his estate is if proof of fraud or wrongdoings are uncovered.

I do think she is trying to protect MJ and may have concerns about circumstances which the public isn't privy to but really she should let this go unless she has proof of underhanded illegal activities committed by them.

I think KJs part for expenses may have been in line with what MJ was already giving her to maintain the home and life style.

imo

Unperson1984

09-19-2009, 01:29 PM

This is not unusual behavior for an ME office, it is commonly done like this.
IMO a defense lawyer should not bash LE for doing the same thing he is doing. Pot calling kettle black fits here.
Re trial by media. That is another tired old cry of defense lawyers that has been proven to be false over the last 400 years. Look up the trials of the Boston Massacre. The media went on a long deliberate campaign to taint the jury pool to get convictions. Didn't work. Has happened in thousands of trials since & has not been successful.

It is unusual in California, we have no 'sunshine' laws and as a rule ME's are silent beyond the immediate statement after autopsy.

In the age of 24/7 news channels, I disagree about fair trials and the media. Crimes are no longer covered as one part of the hour nightly news, now hour upon hour is spent on a single crime by media stars with an agenda to be the top "victims advocate."

And there is no doubt LE uses the media by leaking both true and false information. I've come to believe that any time an officer is caught doing so, the case should be dismissed. IMO

warhorse46

09-19-2009, 01:37 PM

It is unusual in California, we have no 'sunshine' laws and as a rule ME's are silent beyond the immediate statement after autopsy.

In the age of 24/7 news channels, I disagree about fair trials and the media. Crimes are no longer covered as one part of the hour nightly news, now hour upon hour is spent on a single crime by media stars with an agenda to be the top "victims advocate."

And there is no doubt LE uses the media by leaking both true and false information. I've come to believe that any time an officer is caught doing so, the case should be dismissed. IMO

Crime & trials were covered hour by hour back in the 1700s too, town cryer, extra editions of newspapers. And the local pubs were hotbeds of judicial discussions. Yes we have faster media today but the principal is the same. Read the Boston Massacre trials to see what I mean.

Firehead11

09-19-2009, 01:38 PM

She is not going to be able to prove MJ incompetent imo.

And the only way a Judge would remove those who MJ wanted to be over his estate is if proof of fraud or wrongdoings are uncovered.

I do think she is trying to protect MJ and may have concerns about circumstances which the public isn't privy to but really she should let this go unless she has proof of underhanded illegal activities committed by them.

I think KJs part for expenses may have been in line with what MJ was already giving her to maintain the home and life style.

imo

I can see him contributing to his mother but the entire family? Don't most of them live in the Encino home? I would love to see Joe Jackson's tax return and see what money he has made lately. Doesn't Jermaine's kids live there along with an ex wife? Isn't Katherine paying for Jermaine's ex wife? Am I getting confused as all hell?

warhorse46

09-19-2009, 01:40 PM

I can see him contributing to his mother but the entire family? Don't most of them live in the Encino home? I would love to see Joe Jackson's tax return and see what money he has made lately. Doesn't Jermaine's kids live there along with an ex wife? Isn't Katherine paying for Jermaine's ex wife? Am I getting confused as all hell?

IMO MJ has supported that entire family for decades. Now suddenly their gravy train seems to be in jeopardy & they seem to be scrambling to keep it going.

Cindylee

09-19-2009, 01:44 PM

I actually found his statement to be quite funny - typical defense attorney. The search warrant does not even say Dr Murray left to make telephone calls; it says he left to relieve himself. :laugh:

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

Maybe he didn't leave to make phone calls. :huh:

Firehead11

09-19-2009, 01:47 PM

Maybe he didn't leave to make phone calls. :huh:

Let's speculate and say that he didn't leave the room for those phone calls. Do you think he could pay attention to his patient while he was chatting away for 40 plus minutes?

Cindylee

09-19-2009, 01:48 PM

Let's speculate and say that he didn't leave the room for those phone calls. Do you think he could pay attention to his patient while he was chatting away for 40 plus minutes?

No........................

LadyFuzz

09-19-2009, 01:59 PM

Let's speculate and say that he didn't leave the room for those phone calls. Do you think he could pay attention to his patient while he was chatting away for 40 plus minutes?

Yes........................

impartial

09-19-2009, 02:45 PM

Hi everyone !

I've been at the Annie Le thread of late.

Have there been any arrests?

TIA :smile:

Cindylee

09-19-2009, 02:50 PM

Hi everyone !

I've been at the Annie Le thread of late.

Have there been any arrests?

TIA :smile:

Good to see you. And, nope, no arrests.

impartial

09-19-2009, 02:56 PM

Good to see you. And, nope, no arrests.

Thank you Cindylee. :wub:

Wonder what the hold up is. Tox report perhaps. Or, it may just be that this is a case of malpractice when the evidence is viewed as a whole, and there is nothing that will support intent for criminal charges.

imo

Cindylee

09-19-2009, 03:08 PM

Thank you Cindylee. :wub:

Wonder what the hold up is. Tox report perhaps. Or, it may just be that this is a case of malpractice when the evidence is viewed as a whole, and there is nothing that will support intent for criminal charges.

imo

There has been a lot of speculation on that.....as you can imagine. :laugh:

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 03:40 PM

Crime & trials were covered hour by hour back in the 1700s too, town cryer, extra editions of newspapers. And the local pubs were hotbeds of judicial discussions. Yes we have faster media today but the principal is the same. Read the Boston Massacre trials to see what I mean.

I guess Nancy Grace is the modern day town crier, and Jane Velez is the town screamer.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 03:48 PM

Here is part of the statement again:

“Much of what was in the search warrant affidavit is factual. However, unfortunately, much is police theory. Most egregiously, the timeline reported by law enforcement was not obtained through interviews with Dr. Murray, as was implied by the affidavit. Dr. Murray simply never told investigators that he found Michael Jackson at 11:00 am not breathing. He also never said that he waited a mere ten minutes before leaving to make several phone calls. In fact, Dr. Murray never said that he left Michael Jackson’s room to make phone calls at all.

So if Murray found Michael not breathing at 11:00 am, and the call to 911 was at 12:21 pm, and the time of death at 2:22, at what point in time did Michael start breathing again? None of the information tells us that. But surely he would not still be alive upon arrival to the hospital if he wasn't breathing at 11:00 am, unless he had been successfully recusitated. Odd that there is no mention of that anywhere.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 03:51 PM

From the link:

Attorneys for Branca and McClain did not challenge Katherine Jackson’s petition for a ruling.

Doesn't look like Branca and McClain are worried about being challenged or they would have done something to try and stop the petition in the first place.

imo

I already said that in an earlier post. Maybe you missed it.
*shrug*

Unperson1984

09-19-2009, 04:09 PM

IMO MJ has supported that entire family for decades. Now suddenly their gravy train seems to be in jeopardy & they seem to be scrambling to keep it going.

I noticed the administrators mentioned an accounting and the "extended" family in their filing regarding Katherine’s allowance. No doubt another reason she would like to change administrators.

flipflop

09-19-2009, 06:13 PM

I guess Nancy Grace is the modern day town crier, and Jane Velez is the town screamer.

:lol: How funny.

Mairi II

09-19-2009, 08:03 PM

tiptop

09-19-2009, 08:18 PM

Does anyone find it the least bit disturbing that Murray had Prince come up to the room? What on earth could've been the reason for that other than to be a witness of Murray working on MJ (and usually a person's working on someone who's ALIVE). Was it to cover himself? Was MJ already dead but the inference would be that MJ was alive? I'm sorry. That's just really horrible that Murray would dispense with the impact it would have on Prince for his own gain. It says a lot of Murray... and it ain't much.

I havent been reading for a day or two --- do we know it for a fact Prince was called up?

I had contemplated in past posts that if it is true, perhaps Michael told Murray to call for Prince if anything out of the ordinary happened. I speculated about the relationship between Michael and Prince. And how perhaps Michael may have seen him as the man of the house, so to speak. The role reversal of parent and child. In all my readings about MJ, I found him to be lonely and insecure in many ways. Wouldnt surprise me if he leaned on his children way more than normal.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 08:22 PM

That's just a rumor. How true it is no one knows. I doubt that ever happened. jmo

Do you think the chef was lying when she said thats what happened?

Emerald

09-19-2009, 08:33 PM

That's just a rumor. How true it is no one knows. I doubt that ever happened. jmo

That story came from the personal chef. She was on LKL.

JMO Alerting Prince was that an emergency was going on and he should rally the other children. Putting him in a team leader position to guide the other children out of the ensuing melee. I thought it was a good move.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 08:37 PM

Do you think the chef was lying when she said thats what happened?

The chef specifically stated none of the children were called into the room with their father. Murray may have had to go through Prince to alert security.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 08:46 PM

The chef specifically stated none of the children were called into the room with their father. Murray may have had to go through Prince to alert security.

It probably would have been better if Murray had just gone ahead and called 911.

Oh.. by the way... you are not correct.

The truth quickly became apparent when Murray ran down the stairs yelling out for Jackson's oldest child, Prince Michael, 12. "'Go get Prince!' He's screaming very loud," Chase tells the AP. "I run into the den where the kids are playing. Prince runs to meet Dr. Murray and from that point on you could feel the energy in the house change. I walked into the hall and I saw the children there. The daughter was crying. I saw paramedics running up the stairs."

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20294546,00.html

disneyfreak

09-19-2009, 08:47 PM

The chef specifically stated none of the children were called into the room with their father. Murray may have had to go through Prince to alert security.
Actually, its not rumor no matter what the chef said. It is in the affidavit. Page 19.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson4.html

MURRAY asked the chef to send up PRINCE JACKSON, the eldest son, and returned to continue CPR. P. JACKSON responded upstairs and summoned the security detail.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 09:01 PM

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:02 PM

It probably would have been better if Murray had just gone ahead and called 911.

Oh.. by the way... you are not correct.

The truth quickly became apparent when Murray ran down the stairs yelling out for Jackson's oldest child, Prince Michael, 12. "'Go get Prince!' He's screaming very loud," Chase tells the AP. "I run into the den where the kids are playing. Prince runs to meet Dr. Murray and from that point on you could feel the energy in the house change. I walked into the hall and I saw the children there. The daughter was crying. I saw paramedics running up the stairs."

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20294546,00.html

She went on to say, on the Today Show, that at no time was Prince in the room with MJ. She categorically denied that in that interview and another I saw on the same day. Murray summoned Prince so Prince could summon security, apparently.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:04 PM

Actually, its not rumor no matter what the chef said. It is in the affidavit. Page 19.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson4.html

Yes, Prince responded to Murray's call, and then summoned security. Apparently, only Prince could summon security -- Murray could not. Nowhere does it say Murray called Prince into MJ's room, and the chef categorically denied Prince went into MJ's room during the event.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:07 PM

Yes Mairi, it is disturbing. I would hope Murray can come up with some sort of explanation for having done that to the poor child.

And yet again, you twist the truth in your efforts to crucify Murray. That is what's disturbing, imo, especially since you seem to have no problem pretending a 12 year-old was summoned to the bedroom with his dying father in order to further your agenda.

tiptop

09-19-2009, 09:08 PM

Yes, Prince responded to Murray's call, and then summoned security. Apparently, only Prince could summon security -- Murray could not. Nowhere does it say Murray called Prince into MJ's room, and the chef categorically denied Prince went into MJ's room during the event.

Hmmmm, so in essence, a 12-year-old was in charge.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:11 PM

Hmmmm, so in essence, a 12-year-old was in charge.

Exactly. Here's an excerpt from the Larry King Live interview transcript:

CHASE: Yes, exactly. So around 12:00, 12:05, 12:10, Dr. Murray comes down the stairs. There was a stairwell that leads into the kitchen. And he's screaming, hurry. Go get Prince. Call security. Get Prince. So I...

KING: Prince is?

CHASE: Michael Jackson's eldest son. And he -- so I -- I drop everything that -- that I'm doing and I run into the den, which is very close to the kitchen. And I go get Prince. And Prince and I run back. And, you know, he meets Dr. Murray at the stairs. Prince stays with -- downstairs with us and Dr. Murray goes up the stairs with -- but within minutes, the paramedics are there. And the security is running upstairs, skipping stairs and all of a sudden we're all, you know, panicked -- you know, what's going on?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/30/lkl.01.html

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 09:23 PM

And yet again, you twist the truth in your efforts to crucify Murray. That is what's disturbing, imo, especially since you seem to have no problem pretending a 12 year-old was summoned to the bedroom with his dying father in order to further your agenda.

The truth quickly became apparent when Murray ran down the stairs yelling out for Jackson's oldest child, Prince Michael, 12. "'Go get Prince!' He's screaming very loud," Chase tells the AP.

http://www.people.com/people/package...294546,00.html

I don't have to pretend, I just have to read to understand that when Murray YELLED for Prince and screamed "GO GET PRINCE", it falls within the category of summoned.

disneyfreak

09-19-2009, 09:24 PM

Found this in my mailbox today (the weekly is delivered to everyone in the neighborhood).

Santa Ynez Valley Journal: TRADEMARK OF NEVERLAND RANCH ABANDONED BY ITS CURRENT OWNER (http://www.santaynezvalleyjournal.com/archive/7/38/5131/)

Despite repeated assurances that Neverland Ranch would not become an attraction, Sycamore Valley Ranch Co. LLP, the entity that owns the property, applied for and later abandoned trademarks on the name Neverland.

A record list display from the United States Patent and Trademark Office website shows that Sycamore Valley Ranch applied for trademarks on the terms “Neverland,” “Neverland Ranch,” “Neverland Valley,” and “Neverland Valley Ranch” on Aug. 12, well after it promised no commercial development on the site. There were 20 forms of trademark use of the Neverland terms, but all were abandoned on Sept. 8.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:29 PM

The truth quickly became apparent when Murray ran down the stairs yelling out for Jackson's oldest child, Prince Michael, 12. "'Go get Prince!' He's screaming very loud," Chase tells the AP.

http://www.people.com/people/package...294546,00.html

I don't have to pretend, I just have to read to understand that when Murray YELLED for Prince and screamed "GO GET PRINCE", it falls within the category of summoned.

You need to look upthread a bit. I've post the entirety of Kai Chase's response to Larry King during her interview with him.

Prince often was forced into a leadership role, due to the "reclusiveness" of this father, per the article at this link: http://sendtofriend.abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=8215396&pid=248

Murray needed Prince to summon security. Period.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:31 PM

How insane is that?

Where does security hang out until they are summoned by a child, I wonder. Wonder why the dr just didn't yell "Someone call 911!"

I imagine much of what went on in MJ's household was "insane."

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 09:32 PM

How insane is that?

Where does security hang out until they are summoned by a child, I wonder. Wonder why the dr just didn't yell "Someone call 911!"

Probably because Michael was already dead, and he selfishly used the child to cover his own misdeed.

Its...my opinion.

Roxxanne

09-19-2009, 09:33 PM

Actually, its not rumor no matter what the chef said. It is in the affidavit. Page 19.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson4.html

Latoya said it too. Of course some will say she's lying I guess,since some pick and choose what they want to believe when it comes to things Latoya says. IMO.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:34 PM

Latoya said it too. Of course some will say she's lying I guess,since some pick and choose what they want to believe when it comes to things Latoya says. IMO.

LaToya wasn't there, and the initial stories about Prince watching Murray perform CPR on MJ have been debunked by Kai Chase's account of what happened that morning. Kai Chase was in the home. LaToya was not.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:35 PM

Probably because Michael was already dead, and he selfishly used the child to cover his own misdeed.

Its...my opinion.

So you're calling Kai Chase a liar, then?

Roxxanne

09-19-2009, 09:38 PM

LaToya wasn't there, and the initial stories about Prince watching Murray perform CPR on MJ have been debunked by Kai Chase's account of what happened that morning. Kai Chase was in the home. LaToya was not.

I know Latoya wasn't there! But don't you think she's talked to Prince??

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:39 PM

Let me just post this again, for those who didn't see it or wish to ignore it:

CHASE: Yes, exactly. So around 12:00, 12:05, 12:10, Dr. Murray comes down the stairs. There was a stairwell that leads into the kitchen. And he's screaming, hurry. Go get Prince. Call security. Get Prince. So I...

KING: Prince is?

CHASE: Michael Jackson's eldest son. And he -- so I -- I drop everything that -- that I'm doing and I run into the den, which is very close to the kitchen. And I go get Prince. And Prince and I run back. And, you know, he meets Dr. Murray at the stairs. Prince stays with -- downstairs with us and Dr. Murray goes up the stairs with -- but within minutes, the paramedics are there. And the security is running upstairs, skipping stairs and all of a sudden we're all, you know, panicked -- you know, what's going on?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/30/lkl.01.html

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:40 PM

I know Latoya wasn't there! But don't you think she's talked to Prince??

LaToya was relying on tabloids for her information in the beginning. No, I don't think she got her information from Prince.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 09:41 PM

So you're calling Kai Chase a liar, then?

Not at all. Your link says the same thing my link did... that Murray yelled for Prince, and screamed "Go get Prince". I don't think that Michael ever instructed Prince to be in charge in the event that the personal physician killed him. And it isn't reasonable to think that Murray was prohibited from calling for help as his patient lay dying, until getting the okay from the 12 year old child.

Its...my opinion.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 09:43 PM

LaToya was relying on tabloids for her information in the beginning. No, I don't think she got her information from Prince.

Why would she rely on a tabloid, when she has full access to Prince. That really makes no sense.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:45 PM

Not at all. Your link says the same thing my link did... that Murray yelled for Prince, and screamed "Go get Prince". I don't think that Michael ever instructed Prince to be in charge in the event that the personal physician killed him. And it isn't reasonable to think that Murray was prohibited from calling for help as his patient lay dying, until getting the okay from the 12 year old child.

Its...my opinion.

I see you're no longer claiming Prince was in the room with MJ while Murray performed CPR.

You need to read upthread again, I posted an ABC News link with a story about just how much of a leadership role the 12 year-old child was forced to take on.

It happens a lot in families. I would imagine especially in families in which daddy makes like Peter Pan, and also spends at least some of his day abusing prescription drugs.

GentleBreeze

09-19-2009, 09:49 PM

You need to look upthread a bit. I've post the entirety of Kai Chase's response to Larry King during her interview with him.

Prince often was forced into a leadership role, due to the "reclusiveness" of this father, per the article at this link: http://sendtofriend.abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=8215396&pid=248

Murray needed Prince to summon security. Period.

Where in the article does it say that Prince was forced :rolleyes: into a leadership role due to the reclusiveness of his father?

I don't know one oldest son that doesn't want to be their daddy's right arm "man".

Sounds like he enjoyed it and I am sure it built his confidence and self esteem up. Coming down stairs and telling the cook what his dad would like to eat isn't much a major strain on a kid.

imo

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:50 PM

Why would she rely on a tabloid, when she has full access to Prince. That really makes no sense.

I would certainly hope LaToya's "full access to Prince" does not involve her grilling him about her tabloid version of events vs. MJ's personal chef's version. That would really make no sense. To say nothing of being cruel and insensitive.

Hopefully none of the Jacksons are trying to persuade the 3 children to "come around to" some version of events that suits a purpose other than the truth of the matter.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:51 PM

Where in the article does it say that Prince was forced :rolleyes: into a leadership role due to the reclusiveness of his father?

I don't know one oldest son that doesn't want to be their daddy's right arm man.

Sounds like he enjoyed it and I am sure it built his confidence and self esteem up. Coming down stairs and tell the cook what his dad would like to eat isn't much a major strain on a kid.

imo

Where does it say he enjoyed it :rolleyes: and that it built his confidence and self-esteem up? :rolleyes:

Roxxanne

09-19-2009, 09:54 PM

I would certainly hope LaToya's "full access to Prince" does not involve her grilling him about her tabloid version of events vs. MJ's personal chef's version. That would really make no sense. To say nothing of being cruel and insensitive.

Hopefully none of the Jacksons are trying to persuade the 3 children to "come around to" some version of events that suits a purpose other than the truth of the matter.

Oh okay, so now if Prince says he did get summoned to the room, it's going to be because the Jackson's told him to say it?

tiptop

09-19-2009, 09:55 PM

LaToya was relying on tabloids for her information in the beginning. No, I don't think she got her information from Prince.

Has anyone ever offered any explanation why Latoya is listed on MJ's death certificate as "Informant?" Could she have been someone in contact with him in the latter years?

I find her flakey, at best. She once claimed she made stuff up about MJ and his life because her husband at the time (Jack Gordon) made her do so. She was scared for her life if she did not say things that would produce money in their account.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 09:58 PM

Oh okay, so now if Prince says he did get summoned to the room, it's going to be because the Jackson's told him to say it?

At this point, I would take the word of a non-Jackson like Kai Chase, who has absolutely no reason to lie about the events of that day, over anything a Jackson said that contradicts her version.

MJ's kids are part of the clan, now, unfortunately. They have a vested interest in saying what they're told to say.

GentleBreeze

09-19-2009, 09:58 PM

Where does it say he enjoyed it and that it built his confidence and self-esteem up? :rolleyes:

When you posted the link you said Prince was FORCED.:rolleyes:

That is no where in the article. You said "Prince often was forced into a leadership role, due to the "reclusiveness" of this father, per the article at this link: :rolleyes:.

tiptop

09-19-2009, 09:59 PM

Why would she rely on a tabloid, when she has full access to Prince. That really makes no sense.

Serious question --- so, it has been factually stated Latoya was in MJ's life at the end? I remember reading they had made up, but I dont recall if she visited or kept in touch with them.

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 10:00 PM

Has anyone ever offered any explanation why Latoya is listed on MJ's death certificate as "Informant?" Could she have been someone in contact with him in the latter years?

I find her flakey, at best. She once claimed she made stuff up about MJ and his life because her husband at the time (Jack Gordon) made her do so. She was scared for her life if she did not say things that would produce money in their account.

I think she got to the hospital before any other family members. I think that's how she ended up as "Informant."

She's completely flakey, imo. She was on The View as a guest host two days this past week, and she was rewriting history yet again, virtually singing her father's praises. It was both jaw-dropping and predictable at the same time.

tiptop

09-19-2009, 10:01 PM

I think informant just means the person who gave the info ie who
filled it out. :confused:

Understood. But I would have thought Katherine first. Or maybe Janet. But Latoya?

Imperfect4

09-19-2009, 10:03 PM

When you posted the link you said Prince was FORCED.:rolleyes:

That is no where in the article. You said "Prince often was forced into a leadership role, due to the "reclusiveness" of this father, per the article at this link: :rolleyes:.

"Forced" was my interpretation, from my own experience. Just as your interpretation is that Prince "enjoyed" his role and that it built his confidence and self-esteem.

You editorialize in every post, GB, going on at great length about how magnificent it surely must be to be a Jackson. I'm surprised you're surprised to see someone else editorializing. :rolleyes:

tiptop

09-19-2009, 10:03 PM

I think she got to the hospital before any other family members. I think that's how she ended up as "Informant."

She's completely flakey, imo. She was on The View as a guest host two days this past week, and she was rewriting history yet again, virtually singing her father's praises. It was both jaw-dropping and predictable at the same time.

OK - that makes sense about her being at the hopsital first.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 10:09 PM

I see you're no longer claiming Prince was in the room with MJ while Murray performed CPR.

snipped

I didn't claim that. I merely agreed that it was disturbing, and I still think it is disturbing.

The facts are that Michael is dead; Murray was his personal physician, on duty when Michael stopped breathing and; Murray summoned Prince for reasons unknown. Its up to interpretation at this point as to why Murray would call for the child instead of trying to get some air into the empty lungs of his dead or dying patient.

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 10:16 PM

snipped

MJ's kids are part of the clan, now, unfortunately. They have a vested interest in saying what they're told to say.

Those kids have always been a part of the family that is so disrespectfully referred to as the "clan". Forget about their interests, what is the vested interest of a complete stranger suggesting those three innocent children would lie if it suited them?

Emerald

09-19-2009, 10:18 PM

At this point, I would take the word of a non-Jackson like Kai Chase, who has absolutely no reason to lie about the events of that day, over anything a Jackson said that contradicts her version.

MJ's kids are part of the clan, now, unfortunately. They have a vested interest in saying what they're told to say.

I disagree. The children are not responsible to the clan. It is the clan who is walking on eggshells. The children hold all the cards ($$$).

Katherine's 'inheritance' is to support her and the 3 children. It is not a discretionary fund. 'The clan' no longer has a free flow of $$$ through Katherine from MJ. She must produce receipts.

Prince understands very well, I venture. Paris is growing into an understanding. They will protect Blanket.

warhorse46

09-19-2009, 10:37 PM

That story came from the personal chef. She was on LKL.

JMO Alerting Prince was that an emergency was going on and he should rally the other children. Putting him in a team leader position to guide the other children out of the ensuing melee. I thought it was a good move.

If that is indeed the case then that is one heavy burden to put on a child's shoulders when there were many adults in the house. No child that young should shoulder that kind of responsibility IMO.

GentleBreeze

09-19-2009, 11:30 PM

"Forced" was my interpretation, from my own experience. Just as your interpretation is that Prince "enjoyed" his role and that it built his confidence and self-esteem.

You editorialize in every post, GB, going on at great length about how magnificent it surely must be to be a Jackson. I'm surprised you're surprised to see someone else editorializing. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I do but I don't put in my thoughts and then add "per the link" behind them when none of that was said in the link.:rolleyes:

imo

ResJudicata

09-19-2009, 11:33 PM

Yeah, I do but I don't put in my thoughts and then add "per the link" behind them when none of that was said in the link.:rolleyes:

imo

Yeah huh.
:blink:

warhorse46

09-19-2009, 11:54 PM

IMO You don't have to worry, it didn't happen.

Even being the only one who could summon security is much to heavy of a burden for a child that young IMO.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:06 AM

Where in the article does it say that Prince was forced :rolleyes: into a leadership role due to the reclusiveness of his father?

I don't know one oldest son that doesn't want to be their daddy's right arm "man".

Sounds like he enjoyed it and I am sure it built his confidence and self esteem up. Coming down stairs and telling the cook what his dad would like to eat isn't much a major strain on a kid.

imo

Ugh. Take it from someone who has only worked with abused/neglected children since 1880 and with the education in early childhood to go along with it--children who have to be the adults to addict parents are not confident, nor have self esteem, nor are they happy.

And Prince sounds like a textbook case.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:07 AM

Even being the only one who could summon security is much to heavy of a burden for a child that young IMO.

It sure is, WH. It sure is.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:12 AM

snipped

It happens a lot in families. I would imagine especially in families in which daddy makes like Peter Pan, and also spends at least some of his day abusing prescription drugs.

When one's parent spends so much time in bed in drug-induced comas as to have bed sores, the children, by definition, suffer. And Prince sounds as if he shouldered the having to take charge and actually be the one who made travel plans and who assigned tasks to the staff. It really is textbook and utterly sad.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:16 AM

The chef specifically stated none of the children were called into the room with their father. Murray may have had to go through Prince to alert security.

That is, in fact, what the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests states. That Dr M called MJ's security detail on his phone, they didn't respond, he called out for Prince, Prince went upstairs and he was the one to be able to summon security.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:21 AM

The children will be fine. They will grow up in a loved and protected environment. snippedl.

I make decisions, on a weekly basis on where a child should live and with whom, for juvenile court, and make those recommendations to a Judge. Unfortunately, those places and resources are quite limited so the choices are not always the best, or even adequate.

But, given my experience and training, I can guarantee you that I would never recommend going to live with a family who was, for all intents and purposes, strangers to the children who had been kept by their parent from same family. Or a family with a history of abuse and sexual abuse allegations.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:23 AM

If that is indeed the case then that is one heavy burden to put on a child's shoulders when there were many adults in the house. No child that young should shoulder that kind of responsibility IMO.

Exactly. None of MJ's children should've been put in a position to parent their father because he wished to remain childlike.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:24 AM

Aren't you long overdue for retirement? :tongue: :lol:

Just a funnin' ya. :smile:

Oh, gosh, I am older than I thought!!!!!!!!

That was supposed to be 1980.

Emerald

09-20-2009, 12:26 AM

Even being the only one who could summon security is much to heavy of a burden for a child that young IMO.

What was probably expected of Prince was to protect his sister and brither from the ensuing melee. They were right there in the middle of the venue of where everything was about to happen. The children needed to be secured away from that scene. It appears Prince was the team leader (of the children).

JMO

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:32 AM

Ugh. Take it from someone who has only worked with abused/neglected children since 1880 and with the education in early childhood to go along with it--children who have to be the adults to addict parents are not confident, nor have self esteem, nor are they happy.

And Prince sounds like a textbook case.

He looks like one as well, imo. He looks far old than his 12 years.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:34 AM

What was probably expected of Prince was to protect his sister and brither from the ensuing melee. They were right there in the middle of the venue of where everything was about to happen. The children needed to be secured away from that scene. It appears Prince was the team leader (of the children).

JMO

Prince also gave direction to the "help." http://sendtofriend.abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=8215396&pid=248

He was in charge of more than his siblings. It's commonplace for children of parents who refuse to grow up.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:35 AM

Seems when it came to financial irresponsibility, MJ and Murray had a lot in common.

Don't they, though?

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:36 AM

He looks like one as well, imo. He looks far old than his 12 years.

I noticed the night of the made for the reality show service that he looked older, and the way he "parented" his sibs, getting out the car.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:38 AM

snipped It appears Prince was the team leader (of the children).

JMO

What is quite clear, from the chef's accounts and the Affidavit filed by LAPD is that Prince was the one who gave the orders in the family, because his father was unable to do so, being in bed and on drugs.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:42 AM

According to the doc that intoxicated him on diprivan?

snipped

Oh, for the love of pete, how ridiculous. :rolleyes:

MJ had been getting docs (do you know of or have you ever heard of anyone else who had TWO anesthesiologists as their physicians of record????) to give him diprivan and Versed (another powerful anesthetic) for well over a decade.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:44 AM

Not me, I'm always suspicious of LE and the Prosecution.

Put me firmly in this category.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:46 AM

No the search warrant would not be used in a trial because the state would have the officers on the stand to testify as to what the defendant told them. The warrant would not be needed to get that evidence before the jury.

Just want to take a moment to remind all of us that the search warrant requests were not only for Dr M, but for the two anesthesiologists, for the dentist, the plastic surgeon, the doc who gave MJ the physical and nurse Lee, oh and dr Klein. The LAPD used the same Affidavit for all.

Emerald

09-20-2009, 12:47 AM

I noticed the night of the made for the reality show service that he looked older, and the way he "parented" his sibs, getting out the car.

I hope they show the portion of the Family being seated at the Funeral service. Notice the little bit of tension between Prince and LaToya.

JMO

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:47 AM

What is quite clear, from the chef's accounts and the Affidavit filed by LAPD is that Prince was the one who gave the orders in the family, because his father was unable to do so, being in bed and on drugs.

And I think it's despicable anyone would try to shift blame to Murray for the way MJ set things up for Prince -- making him responsible for giving directives to the household staff and security detail. That doesn't have a thing to do with Murray.

Murray has plenty to answer for, but Prince's situation in that household is not among them.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 12:48 AM

When one's parent spends so much time in bed in drug-induced comas as to have bed sores, the children, by definition, suffer. And Prince sounds as if he shouldered the having to take charge and actually be the one who made travel plans and who assigned tasks to the staff. It really is textbook and utterly sad.

What's sad is that there was a personal physician on staff, who charged $150,000.00 per month to oversee and care for his only patient, and failed terribly at addressing these serious medical issue's you often refer to. Of course the children are going to suffer if their loving father is suffering from the pain of bed sores, and all the while with a doctor who's greed got in the way of his duty to treat and heal his patient.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:51 AM

What's sad is that there was a personal physician on staff, who charged $150,000.00 per month to oversee and care for his only patient, and failed terribly at addressing these serious medical issue's you often refer to. Of course the children are going to suffer if their loving father is suffering from the pain of bed sores, and all the while with a doctor who's greed got in the way of his duty to treat and heal his patient.

ROFL! OMG! Absolutely hysterical! You've jumped the shark, even for you! LMAO!! :lol:

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:53 AM

I hope they show the portion of the Family being seated at the Funeral service. Notice the little bit of tension between Prince and LaToya.

JMO

Oh, I noticed it. That was something that stuck out for me.

Emerald

09-20-2009, 12:54 AM

Put me firmly in this category.

Count me in on this one. They usually make the suspect ground zero instead of the crime.

Emerald

09-20-2009, 12:58 AM

Oh, I noticed it. That was something that stuck out for me.

I'm glad someone else noticed it, too.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 12:58 AM

That is, in fact, what the Affidavit in support of the search warrant requests states. That Dr M called MJ's security detail on his phone, they didn't respond, he called out for Prince, Prince went upstairs and he was the one to be able to summon security.

Unless security had the necessary life saving equipment in their back pockets, the choice to have Prince summon security was a poor one. Not only did Murray leave his dying patient to call for Prince, he failed to summon anyone who might be of a benefit to a dying man. And by the way he called security some 70 minutes after he found Michael's lifeless body, and only after he made a few personal calls. There is no excuse for Murray to have called everyone except for 911, the only people who might have saved Michael.

Its..my opinion.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 12:59 AM

And I think it's despicable anyone would try to shift blame to Murray for the way MJ set things up for Prince -- making him responsible for giving directives to the household staff and security detail. That doesn't have a thing to do with Murray.

Murray has plenty to answer for, but Prince's situation in that household is not among them.

It's just silly, of course. The chef said it took her some getting used to that it was Prince who made the household decisions and ordered the staff. And it's right there in the Affidavit, that Prince "responded upstairs" and summoned security.

What I think is textbook is that Prince even had to be the parent at such a terrible time--to get the security, calm his sibs, talk to staff.

My clients, for over two decades, have told me all about calling the cops, or the drug dealer, or the--well, the man who runs his/her mother's "businesness," or write notes to school for sibs, cook, do laundry, whatever, when a parent is a substance abuser and/or has mental health issues. It is part and parcel of the end of childhood for children of addicts.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:00 AM

I'm glad someone else noticed it, too.

And the way Joe Jackson was motioning to Prince with his finger, and mouthing words to him, as well. But the bit between Prince and Latoya was a give away.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:02 AM

Unless security had the necessary life saving equipment in their back pockets, the choice to have Prince summon security was a poor one. snipped.

And yet we've seen it many times. Even in the Vegas hotel room trashing incident.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 01:02 AM

Unperson1984

09-20-2009, 01:04 AM

Has anyone ever offered any explanation why Latoya is listed on MJ's death certificate as "Informant?" Could she have been someone in contact with him in the latter years?

I find her flakey, at best. She once claimed she made stuff up about MJ and his life because her husband at the time (Jack Gordon) made her do so. She was scared for her life if she did not say things that would produce money in their account.

She wasn't a great informant, she gave his address as the Encino house. And I would expect a sister to know her brother's DOB.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:09 AM

She wasn't a great informant, she gave his address as the Encino house. And I would expect a sister to know her brother's DOB.

They didn't know. Joe Jackson found out about his son being taken from the hospital "from fans." They never had MJ's phone number. MJ spent decades staying away from his family.

Unperson1984

09-20-2009, 01:16 AM

What's sad is that there was a personal physician on staff, who charged $150,000.00 per month to oversee and care for his only patient, and failed terribly at addressing these serious medical issue's you often refer to. Of course the children are going to suffer if their loving father is suffering from the pain of bed sores, and all the while with a doctor who's greed got in the way of his duty to treat and heal his patient.

Oh please, he wasn't paid to care for MJ. He was paid to administer the drugs MJ demanded.

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 01:18 AM

"Forced" was my interpretation, from my own experience. Just as your interpretation is that Prince "enjoyed" his role and that it built his confidence and self-esteem.

You editorialize in every post, GB, going on at great length about how magnificent it surely must be to be a Jackson. I'm surprised you're surprised to see someone else editorializing. :rolleyes: It is ridiculous to me that a child would ever have to be in the position of being "Daddys" right hand man. Daddy was a drug addict, and no child should have to be in the position of being "father" at 11 or 12. Unfortunately many kids are forced to be in this position....but, it sure isn't to build their self esteem and confidence. GMAB.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:23 AM

Oh please, he wasn't paid to care for MJ. He was paid to administer the drugs MJ demanded.

Exactly. Just like the other docs.

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 01:23 AM

Oh, gosh, I am older than I thought!!!!!!!!

That was supposed to be 1980.:laugh:...............

Emerald

09-20-2009, 01:34 AM

And the way Joe Jackson was motioning to Prince with his finger, and mouthing words to him, as well. But the bit between Prince and Latoya was a give away.

It was as though they were surrounding Katherine to keep Prince away. Plus, that's where the camera was going to pan. LaToya surely did not want to be left out of that.

Don't the trustees get a decent salary? That would give KJ more $$$.

On The View, LaToya said she was donating all the funds from the youtube video to that LA Aids Foundation set up by MJ. First of all, how is she making any $$$ from a video that's viewed for free? Second, won't that Foundation need an administrator if it ever actually begins administering? Maybe LaToya is angling for the job, thinking it will turn a decent profit for herself. NOT! Those charities, especially the high profile ones are scrutinized by the IRS and the public. Remember Denise Brown, Nicole's sister? She tried to pull that scam, having all her personal expenses run through there. :thumbdown:

JMO

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:37 AM

On The View, LaToya said she was donating all the funds from the youtube video to that LA Aids Foundation set up by MJ. First of all, how is she making any $$$ from a video that's viewed for free? snipped

That fund has been kaput for a very long time.:blush:

Emerald

09-20-2009, 01:47 AM

That fund has been kaput for a very long time.:blush:

Well, LaToya has to make $$$ somehow. Sure can't rely on her talent (:lol:). Not KJ either since she has to present receipts for everything.

I heard/read somewhere the living arrangements (bums) at the Encino compound were being questioned by the trustees. Did anyone else hear/read that? Can't remember.

JMO

Unperson1984

09-20-2009, 01:55 AM

Well, LaToya has to make $$$ somehow. Sure can't rely on her talent (:lol:). Not KJ either since she has to present receipts for everything.

I heard/read somewhere the living arrangements (bums) at the Encino compound were being questioned by the trustees. Did anyone else hear/read that? Can't remember.

JMO

It's in the Trustee's filing related to Katherine and the children's allowances. The trustees want an accounting as to allowances being used on the "extended" family living at the house in Encino.

Thank Goodness...it's about time.

IMO

Emerald

09-20-2009, 02:17 AM

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 06:44 AM

Understood. But I would have thought Katherine first. Or maybe Janet. But Latoya?

IIRC Janet had to fly in from somewhere and Joe had to arrive from Vegas. I would imagine that Katherine was real distraught. I thought at the time that the hospital was waiting until the entire family arrived before it was formally announced that Jackson had died.

Emerald

09-20-2009, 07:21 AM

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 08:38 AM

Isn't the Encino property a compound of homes? KJ's home is 8-10 bedrooms, IIRC. I know it's part of the MJ estate. He owns it.

MJ was an adult making the decision to maintain a home for KJ. It is the children who are expected to, now. I understand the children wanting to take care of Grandma, but it's despicable they are supporting the other able bodied people.

JMO

I guess as long as every penny of the 60 grand is accounted for the use of the children, then we can sit back and watch. But if I were a member of that family I would be now finding a way to support myself and my own family instead of relying on Jacksons children. And Katherine is 80, so they best get started.

GentleBreeze

09-20-2009, 08:43 AM

Ugh. Take it from someone who has only worked with abused/neglected children since 1880 and with the education in early childhood to go along with it--children who have to be the adults to addict parents are not confident, nor have self esteem, nor are they happy.

And Prince sounds like a textbook case.

Of course he is to you. I have never seen where you ever think a child doesn't need "fixin."

Strange that those who really knows this child said he is a very confident child.

imo

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 09:18 AM

Of course he is to you. I have never seen where you ever think a child doesn't need "fixin."

Strange that those who really knows this child said he is a very confident child.

imo

To me his children look well behaved from what we have seen. Paris spoke intelligently and from the heart at her Father's tribute.

The sad thing is that these children are being judged not by what they have done or might accomplish but rather by who their family is. They have already been judged as "damaged" by some.

GentleBreeze

09-20-2009, 09:45 AM

To me his children look well behaved from what we have seen. Paris spoke intelligently and from the heart at her Father's tribute.

The sad thing is that these children are being judged not by what they have done or might accomplish but rather by who their family is. They have already been judged as "damaged" by some.

Of course they have and those that judge these kids "broken" have never even laid eyes on them. They just seem to lump all kids into one neat box. Imagine that.

Yet the very ones that have been around these children talk about them in glowing terms don't know as much as the far away armchair so called experts????:rolleyes: Go figure.

It is like there is a need by some for these children to be broken for there certainly is no evidence that they are damaged kids. It is like some want them to fall on their faces and sometimes I even wonder if some secretly want these children to become penniless all because of the disdain they have against their father.

I think these children will be just fine. If they are in therapy it is learning how to cope with losing the father that meant so much to them.

imo

warhorse46

09-20-2009, 10:28 AM

What was probably expected of Prince was to protect his sister and brither from the ensuing melee. They were right there in the middle of the venue of where everything was about to happen. The children needed to be secured away from that scene. It appears Prince was the team leader (of the children).

JMO

Right & with that many adults in the house @ the time a child should never have had to shoulder that responsibility. Adults should be protecting the children, not children protecting children.

warhorse46

09-20-2009, 10:30 AM

Just want to take a moment to remind all of us that the search warrant requests were not only for Dr M, but for the two anesthesiologists, for the dentist, the plastic surgeon, the doc who gave MJ the physical and nurse Lee, oh and dr Klein. The LAPD used the same Affidavit for all.

Thanks for the reminder, that is important to remember.

warhorse46

09-20-2009, 10:32 AM

warhorse46

09-20-2009, 10:53 AM

I don't have a problem with LaToya signing anything. She was entitled as a Family member. Easier to get a Family member sign identifying and releasing the body to the Coroner for an autopsy than to get a court order. Everybody knew MJ. Just needed verification for legal reasons.

Plus, it is not unusual that they would have wanted to wait for the entire Family to be officially notified and on the way, before the presser.

When a person dies under suspicious circumstances as MJ did the ME does not need the permission of any family member to do an autopsy. The body is in his custody & he must release it to the family when his job is completed.

warhorse46

09-20-2009, 10:55 AM

Of course they have and those that judge these kids "broken" have never even laid eyes on them. They just seem to lump all kids into one neat box. Imagine that.

Yet the very ones that have been around these children talk about them in glowing terms don't know as much as the far away armchair so called experts????:rolleyes: Go figure.

It is like there is a need by some for these children to be broken for there certainly is no evidence that they are damaged kids. It is like some want them to fall on their faces and sometimes I even wonder if some secretly want these children to become penniless all because of the disdain they have against their father.

I think these children will be just fine. If they are in therapy it is learning how to cope with losing the father that meant so much to them.

imo

I so hope the 3 children are in therapy. They certainly need it to cope with the situation they are in.

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 11:28 AM

http://3391.voxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/michael-jackson-02-2009-06-04.jpg

Nice picture of Prince Michael and his father.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 11:36 AM

I don't see anyone blaming Murray for Prince's responsibility. All I have seen are blaming MJ for placing that kind of responsibility on a young child. Murray had no say in that decision.

No, ResJ is quite clear she blames Murray for involving Prince in getting security the day MJ died. Quite clear.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 11:37 AM

In the custody agreement, it was said KJ and DR arranged for a psychologist with each paying half for the services. I'm sure the psychologist is not only handling when the children should see their mother, but anything else that comes up as well. This was approved by the judge. imo

I hope it's actually underway. I would think the Jacksons, and perhaps especially Katherine, would be concerned some of MJ's secrets might get out if his children are encouraged to open up to a counselor.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 11:48 AM

They might be worried at that. I believe DR is the one who demanded that in the custody agreement. Now, KJ has no choice if she wants to keep the children. Actually, the counselor is bound by privilege even if they are children. imo

There's no reason for any of them to worry about confidentiality, but we've seen some paranoia in more than one Jackson.

The kids should be able to see a counselor to talk about whatever is troubling them, not limited to who should be parenting them. imo

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 11:57 AM

I hope it's actually underway. I would think the Jacksons, and perhaps especially Katherine, would be concerned some of MJ's secrets might get out if his children are encouraged to open up to a counselor.

Oh my lord and what secrets are you implying that Jackson had?

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:10 PM

I agree, but don't you think if the children chose to discuss other things on their minds, the counselor will listen? If the counselor feels they may need another counselor for anything else because he is limited, don't you think the counselor will recommend that?

This is a start. Personally, I don't see why the counselor will limit the children anyway, do you? I really don't know how that would work.

It's not about who should be parenting them because KJ has custody. It is about how the children should be introduced to DR as being their mother and about how and when visits should take place. It is about how they were brought into the world.

imo

No, I don't see the counselor limiting them. I can imagine, though, the kids being told at home to "watch what they say" to the therapist and talk only about subjects pertaining to DR.

MJ trashing a Vegas hotel room and KJ picking up after him to keep the incident under wraps is, imo, the very tip of the iceberg in terms of what she and other members of the family would like to keep under wraps having to do with MJ. Their apparent denial, now, that he had a prescription drug habit is another example.

Edited to add: LaToya's very recent rewriting of history and attempts to reframe Joe Jackson as just your average caring father is yet another example.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:11 PM

Oh my lord and what secrets are you implying that Jackson had?

:laugh: You're kidding, right? :laugh:

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 12:20 PM

You're kidding, right?

Nope. This has to be about child molestion. Every topic ALWAYS comes back to that. First off, I have never ever believed any of those stories. 2nd off, he was never convicted of this. I think it is amazing that people think so little of the juries that sat and heard the evidence. These juries heard the evidence and still did not convict him. I really believe that not one of the jurors would have left a child molester back into the population. I have a really hard time belkieving that all of these jurors were so "star struck" that they would have endangered more children.

So no, I am not kidding.

Edited the quote since child molestion is no laughing matter.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:32 PM

Nope. This has to be about child molestion. Every topic ALWAYS comes back to that. First off, I have never ever believed any of those stories. 2nd off, he was never convicted of this. I think it is amazing that people think so little of the juries that sat and heard the evidence. These juries heard the evidence and still did not convict him. I really believe that not one of the jurors would have left a child molester back into the population. I have a really hard time belkieving that all of these jurors were so "star struck" that they would have endangered more children.

So no, I am not kidding.

Edited the quote since child molestion is no laughing matter.

Whew! Talk about jumping to conclusions!

I am on record here as having not followed the molestation case(s) closely, of having no opinion one way or the other on what MJ did or didn't do with regard to those charges, and in addition, I have no desire to form an opinion now.

MJ was eccentric as hell. And he abused prescription drugs. Those two facts alone create enough secrets to last a lifetime, and they create an environment not conducive to raising well-adjusted children.

The children saw plenty of dysfunction, trust me, which may or may not have included their father's self-admitted preference for the company of adolescent boys. Those are the general secrets to which I'm referring.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 12:48 PM

Prince is certainly a very good looking child. imo

Think about this for a second ...

Imagine if that were not MJ and Prince, but some other father and son. If that was not MJ in that photo -- the MJ we've all grown accustomed to seeing, his face destroyed by plastic surgery and bleach, walking under an umbrella, dressed all in black -- many who viewed that pic would be concerned for the young man in the photo. imo

The surreality of MJ has become "normal" to us, but imo, it's dangerous to completely ignore the surreal nature of his existence and the toll it surely has taken on his children.

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Whew! Talk about jumping to conclusions!

I am on record here as having not followed the molestation case(s) closely, of having no opinion one way or the other on what MJ did or didn't do with regard to those charges, and in addition, I have no desire to form an opinion now.

MJ was eccentric as hell. And he abused prescription drugs. Those two facts alone create enough secrets to last a lifetime, and they create an environment not conducive to raising well-adjusted children.

The children saw plenty of dysfunction, trust me, which may or may not have included their father's self-admitted preference for the company of adolescent boys. Those are the general secrets to which I'm referring.

Neither of these bolded items are secrets, so I wasn't jumping to conclusions. Maybe you should watch videos on how Jackson interacted with his children.

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 01:11 PM

GentleBreeze

09-20-2009, 01:12 PM

Think about this for a second ...

Imagine if that were not MJ and Prince, but some other father and son. If that was not MJ in that photo -- the MJ we've all grown accustomed to seeing, his face destroyed by plastic surgery and bleach, walking under an umbrella, dressed all in black -- many who viewed that pic would be concerned for the young man in the photo. imo

The surreality of MJ has become "normal" to us, but imo, it's dangerous to completely ignore the surreal nature of his existence and the toll it surely has taken on his children.

If I saw these two people walking along the street casually talking with each other, I would think they were close friends or family members. I did notice how each of them seems so relax with each other. I thought it was a nice photo of MJ and Prince. Prince sure seems to be enjoying the conversation he is having with his daddy.

Why would I see anything surreal about someone walking under an umbrella down the street? I certainly don't see it odd when I see others. I just think they are sensitive to sunlight.:shrug:

imo

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:20 PM

I agree it is a shame. These children have to cope with living in the Jackson clan. Who actually picked the psychologist is not known.

snipped

You really believe the children are seeing a therapist? Because I sure don't.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:27 PM

Of course he is to you. I have never seen where you ever think a child doesn't need "fixin."

Strange that those who really knows this child said he is a very confident child.

imo

Excuse me? :confused:

daniel green

09-20-2009, 01:29 PM

Right & with that many adults in the house @ the time a child should never have had to shoulder that responsibility. Adults should be protecting the children, not children protecting children.

That's exactly it.

GentleBreeze

09-20-2009, 01:41 PM

How many others have you seen under a black umbrella, dressed all in black, with their face destroyed by plastic surgery, and bleached to a pale white?

I don't judge people by the way they look or care one iota about how many procedures they may have had done. I doubt the kids cared either.

His face didn't look destroyed to me. Michael looked very good in the rehearsal videos so I am not sure what you mean by destroyed.

Johnny Cash always wore black. Thought that was his business too.

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 01:48 PM

I don't judge people by the way they look or care one iota about how many procedures they may have had done. I doubt the kids cared either.

His face didn't look destroyed to me. Michael looked very good in the rehearsal videos so I am not sure what you mean by destroyed.

Johnny Cash always wore black. Thought that was his business too.

This changing faces of MJ. His face looks pretty destroyed to me. Sorry to say. He, at one time was a very good looking person.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 02:05 PM

Cindy,
Some people are in so much denial about what he was and what he did to himself they are hopeless. Some here I would bet will say those are Photo Edited pics of MJ. And yes at one time he was a decent looking black man. Sadly he mutilated his face to spite his dad so some say. Talk about shallow. I wonder why did LaToya and Janet do the same to their noses? Did they hate Joe too?

What he was??

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 02:07 PM

Johnny Cash was a REAL MAN!!

A real man?

Exactly what does that mean?

Firehead11

09-20-2009, 02:08 PM

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 02:22 PM

Actually what was being said was that Jackson had plastic surgery because his father always teased him about his big nose.

And, his eyes, and cheeks, and chin????

GentleBreeze

09-20-2009, 02:29 PM

This changing faces of MJ. His face looks pretty destroyed to me. Sorry to say. He, at one time was a very good looking person.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

LOL! Why of course throw up the old standby link that shows him in the least favorable light.:lol:

I am not talking about what he looked like at one time. I am not even talking about what he looked like to others. I said IMO he looked very nice in the rehearsal videos.

imo

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 02:32 PM

KJ and DR are the last people on EARTH that should arrange for a psychologist. The GAL should choose. imo

If I just saw a few pictures of Prince running and playing without a care in the world, I'd feel much better. Thus far, everything I've seen and read leads me to believe he doesn't know HOW to be a kid. I think that's from years of being THE parent for every Jackson in that house.

It's a darn shame. imo

When or where have you seen him besides at his fathers memorial services? I can't really recall seeing a lot of him, except for the memorials. What did I miss?

daniel green

09-20-2009, 02:55 PM

daniel green

09-20-2009, 02:58 PM

It was in the custody agreement, approved by the judge. I have no idea if KJ is going back on that agreement or not, but I would think she would have to do it to keep the children, no? imo

No.

It was some agreement between DR and Mrs J about getting a therapist to help introduce DR into the children's lives. Not legally binding in any way. You know, the same way Joe J wrote that Affidavit about his not being around the kids, and only Mrs J would raise them, yet there he is.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 03:01 PM

snipped I wonder why did LaToya and Janet do the same to their noses? Did they hate Joe too?

And the other brothers, including Jermaine, as well. All of them have had lots of plastic surgery with the exception of one brother. In fact, it is right near impossible to look at childhood/teen pics of any of them and try to match them up with current pictures.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 03:03 PM

What a shame. He looked great at one time, after some surgery, and should have stopped there. I can't imagine why he kept going. imo

Body dysmorphic disorder

From the link:

The exact cause(s)of BDD differ(s) from person to person. However, most clinicians believe it could be a combination of biological, psychological and environmental factors from their past or present. Abuse can also be a contributing factor. [4][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

daniel green

09-20-2009, 03:05 PM

Does anyone know when MJ stopped having Prince's hair bleached white?

TIA

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 05:31 PM

Who whined about his lost childhood and then proceeded to bring 3 into
the world and give them a completely unnatural childhood.

I don't think they thought it was unnatural. According to Michaels daughter, Paris.. he was the best daddy you could ever imagine. It only seems unnatural to you because you probably have never lived their lives. They all appear to be beautiful, intelligent and well adjusted children. Also.. all three of them seem to have a very close relationship. If you didn't know they were Michaels children, I doubt there would be so must negative speculation and uninformed opinions being thrown about.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 05:46 PM

I don't think they thought it was unnatural. According to Michaels daughter, Paris.. he was the best daddy you could ever imagine. It only seems unnatural to you because you probably have never lived their lives. They all appear to be beautiful, intelligent and well adjusted children. Also.. all three of them seem to have a very close relationship. If you didn't know they were Michaels children, I doubt there would be so must negative speculation and uninformed opinions being thrown about.

Even children who have suffered unimaginable, horrific abuse do not "rat out" their abusers. Of course Paris called MJ "the best daddy." She's been saying that for years per a video of her saying the very same line at a very young age. And she may actually believe he was the "best daddy," as she had nothing to compare him to. Substance abusers do not make best daddies. Isolated Paris wouldn't be in a position to know that.

They are good-looking kids. They may well be intelligent. "Well-adjusted" to their lives with MJ doesn't equate to well-adjusted in the real world, so just how well-adjusted they are is a big question mark, imo.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 05:54 PM

I don't understand what you mean since this was a custody agreement worked out by DR and KJ in regard to who gets the children. This was done in order not to have a court battle regarding the kids. This "agreement" was part of the court ordered custody involving the visiting rights by their mother. That is different from Joe just filling out an affidavit that wasn't even part of the custody order.

Therefore, if the custody order is not followed, I believe they would end up back in court, which includes the order about having the psychologist see the children regarding DR being their mother, and working out visitation times.

Joe's affidavit has no teeth in it, but I'm betting the custody order does.

Remember DR has not given up her parental rights and I really believe she asked for the psychologist in the first place.

imo

That's assuming DR is still interested in visitation with the kids. She might've had a "moment" at the time MJ died ... a moment which has passed by now. She seemed perfectly able to leave her children in MJ's solitary care for many years. Somehow, I can't imagine she's suddenly all about mothering them.

She had a right to throw her hat in the ring after MJ died, and she might've been caught up in the emotion of the moment. Whether she's still interested in being even a part-time mother, much less "negotiating" with the clan for time with the children remains to be seen, imo.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 05:56 PM

Healthy parenting according to your standards, is probably great for your children.

Healthy parenting by any "standards" at all does not include substance abuse.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 05:59 PM

Even children who have suffered unimaginable, horrific abuse do not "rat out" their abusers. Of course Paris called MJ "the best daddy." She's been saying that for years per a video of her saying the very same line at a very young age. And she may actually believe he was the "best daddy," as she had nothing to compare him to. Substance abusers do not make best daddies. Isolated Paris wouldn't be in a position to know that.

They are good-looking kids. They may well be intelligent. "Well-adjusted" to their lives with MJ doesn't equate to well-adjusted in the real world, so just how well-adjusted they are is a big question mark, imo.

Most kids don't have alternate parents to compare, and usually they can figure out how they feel about their parents. I can understand why Michael would want them to be shielded from the general public, and this forum is a good example of what they would likely encounter on a regular basis. I think its unreasonable to expect them to adjust in your world.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 06:07 PM

Do you have them under surveillance? If not, how do you know anything about how those children really feel and what happened in their lives? You've only seen Paris speak once and not very long. You've only seen the children in formal settings. Not much to hang your hat on when it comes to how well adjusted they are. IMO

I've listened to the people who know them, and they all say the same thing about the kids. I do recall how upsetting it was to some of you that they chewed gum at their fathers memorial service, but I don't think thats a sign of troubled children.

daniel green

09-20-2009, 07:53 PM

Healthy parenting according to your standards, is probably great for your children.

Healthy parenting is not on a sliding scale. And an addict, by definition, does not make for a healthy parent.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 08:22 PM

I don't believe that at all. Why would she throw her hat in the ring if she didn't want it there. She gained no money in this and that has been made clear. To keep on putting her down is simply not fair. IMO

I'm not putting her down. I just don't happen to believe her desire to be a mother suddenly came full circle when MJ died. I think the woman is content out of the limelight, tending her horses. And no, she apparently didn't receive any money recently. But she certainly did when she handed her kids over to MJ to raise alone.

If she had no issues with her children being raised by their substance abusing father, isolated from the world, wearing masks whenever they did get outside, I can't imagine she's overwhelmingly concerned about them being raised in the clan.

Again, I'm not putting her down. It is what it is.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 08:30 PM

Most kids don't have alternate parents to compare, and usually they can figure out how they feel about their parents. I can understand why Michael would want them to be shielded from the general public, and this forum is a good example of what they would likely encounter on a regular basis. I think its unreasonable to expect them to adjust in your world.

Michael should've successfully rehab'd and undergone intensive therapy before he ever considered taking on the responsibility of 3 children. Anyone who feels he needs to shield himself from the world so he can conduct his life far, far outside the "norm" should not even consider bringing 3 innocent babies into such a shuttered, hush-hush environment.

RootBeer

09-20-2009, 08:46 PM

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 09:13 PM

That's not at all what it is. The custody thread in the forum has all the links. imo

By the way she did get payments in the divorce settlement. imo

I honestly don't care all that much about DR and her involvement with the children, so I won't be visiting the custody thread thanks just the same.

For some reason, the woman thought it was a good idea to have Michael Jackson's children, and to let him raise them. I heartily disagree with the choices she made, and given those choices, I don't expect much from her. I'll leave it at that.

Blondekj

09-20-2009, 09:26 PM

Healthy parenting by any "standards" at all does not include substance abuse.
True...but being an abuser of substances does not necessarily preclude healthy parenting.

jmo.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 09:28 PM

True...but being an abuser of substances does not necessarily preclude healthy parenting.

jmo.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Imo, healthy parenting requires a level of selflessness no substance abuser can reach.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 10:04 PM

I honestly don't care all that much about DR and her involvement with the children, so I won't be visiting the custody thread thanks just the same.

For some reason, the woman thought it was a good idea to have Michael Jackson's children, and to let him raise them. I heartily disagree with the choices she made, and given those choices, I don't expect much from her. I'll leave it at that.

She may just as heartily disagree with your life choices too. We can't expect everyone to agree with everyone else's various philosphies. Thats whats so great about freedom, and the right to choose based on ones own ideas and princples.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 10:06 PM

She could have fought for custody, but that would have separated the kids. imo

Actually I remember hearing that if she was going to consider asking for custody, she wanted them to stay together and she would be willing to take them all.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 10:09 PM

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Imo, healthy parenting requires a level of selflessness no substance abuser can reach.

Forgive my curiosity... but do you have any children? I realize thats a personal type question, so if you don't feel comfortable answering, thats fine too.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 10:11 PM

She may just as heartily disagree with your life choices too. We can't expect everyone to agree with everyone else's various philosphies. Thats whats so great about freedom, and the right to choose based on ones own ideas and princples.

My "life choices" and "various philosophies" do not include putting innocent children in harm's way. She can heartily disagree with that all she likes, as can you.

I don't have children scattered to the four winds, mourning the untimely homicide of their addicted father and in the custody of their dysfunctional extended family. That's what's so great about my "life choices and various philosophies," I sleep well at night and have no trouble looking in a mirror.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 10:12 PM

Forgive my curiosity... but do you have any children? I realize thats a personal type question, so if you don't feel comfortable answering, thats fine too.

Yes, it's a personal question. No, I have no intention of answering you.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 10:25 PM

Michael should've successfully rehab'd and undergone intensive therapy before he ever considered taking on the responsibility of 3 children. Anyone who feels he needs to shield himself from the world so he can conduct his life far, far outside the "norm" should not even consider bringing 3 innocent babies into such a shuttered, hush-hush environment.

I suppose thats reasonable for you, but his life from very young age was completely different than yours was. Was it normal the way he was ridiculed and laughed at all those years, through the media and the people who believed it. He couldn't go outside without cameras following his every move, to be analyzed on ET or whatever. The only life he ever had was that of a superstar, and what is normal to you, would not be normal for him.

And again.. another great thing about freedom is that we get to decide our own family matters, in a belief that we each have a right to make those decisions for ourselves. In fact .. the DSS checked him out two or three times (Thanks Gloria Alred) and each time DSS closed their files because they found a loving home, with three happy, healthy and well kept children. I have no doubt in my mind that he loved those children, and worked hard to be an excellent parent, and by all accounts from people who know them, or have seen them together, say the same thing.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 10:31 PM

My "life choices" and "various philosophies" do not include putting innocent children in harm's way. She can heartily disagree with that all she likes, as can you.

I don't have children scattered to the four winds, mourning the untimely homicide of their addicted father and in the custody of their dysfunctional extended family. That's what's so great about my "life choices and various philosophies," I sleep well at night and have no trouble looking in a mirror.

Well.. I guess you don't work for the agency that checks out childrens wefare, since they obviously didn't see all these imagined horrors that you feel existed. And if you feel the family is so improper for those children, and have a legitimate reason, that can be backed up with facts, you should petition the court and convince the judge that his custody ruling was all wrong.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 10:47 PM

I suppose thats reasonable for you, but his life from very young age was completely different than yours was. Was it normal the way he was ridiculed and laughed at all those years, through the media and the people who believed it. He couldn't go outside without cameras following his every move, to be analyzed on ET or whatever. The only life he ever had was that of a superstar, and what is normal to you, would not be normal for him.

<snipped>

He reached adulthood and made a choice not to get the help he needed to move beyond his unhappy childhood.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to publicize his eccentric lifestyle, thereby creating a level of media interest reserved for the truly outrageous.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to drastically alter his appearance through cosmetic surgery and other means, again creating a level of media interest reserved for the truly outrageous.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to seek the company of children, in particular adolescent male children. He also made a choice to have them sleep in his bed, and he made a choice to publicize that fact. Media interest followed.

He reached adulthood and made a choice not to get long-term help with his prescription drug abuse. Media interest followed.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to bring 3 innocent children into his world of bad choices.

That's what's great about this country -- we're able to make choices about the way we live our lives. Then we get to live with the consequences of our choices. The defenseless and vulnerable we bring into our lives also must live with the consequences of our choices.

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 10:53 PM

He reached adulthood and made a choice not to get the help he needed to move beyond his unhappy childhood.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to publicize his eccentric lifestyle, thereby creating a level of media interest reserved for the truly outrageous.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to drastically alter his appearance through cosmetic surgery and other means, again creating a level of media interest reserved for the truly outrageous.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to seek the company of children, in particular adolescent male children. He also made a choice to have them sleep in his bed, and he made a choice to publicize that fact. Media interest followed.

He reached adulthood and made a choice not to get long-term help with his prescription drug abuse. Media interest followed.

He reached adulthood and made a choice to bring 3 innocent children into his world of bad choices.

That's what's great about this country -- we're able to make choices about the way we live our lives. Then we get to live with the consequences of our choices. The defenseless and vulnerable we bring into our lives also must live with the consequences of our choices.

:beer:................:beer:

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 10:53 PM

snipped

That's what's great about this country -- we're able to make choices about the way we live our lives. Then we get to live with the consequences of our choices. The defenseless and vulnerable we bring into our lives also must live with the consequences of our choices.

You should save that talk for the parents whose children have been removed from their custody. Michael wasn't one of those parents, but thats my opinion, just as yours is yours. We should rejoice in the fact that we don't have to live with each others opinions.
:glare:

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 11:02 PM

Thanks Cindy and k9.

Personal Responsibility. It's where it's at. :wink:

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 11:21 PM

Thanks Cindy and k9.

Personal Responsibility. It's where it's at. :wink: It seems to be lost these days. :wink:

sallemae

09-20-2009, 11:23 PM

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Imo, healthy parenting requires a level of selflessness no substance abuser can reach.

Just curious, how do you know this? Are you a doctor, drug user, what do you base this on? Do you think drinking alcohol (any amount) is different than using drugs when raising a child?

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 11:34 PM

Just curious, how do you know this? Are you a doctor, drug user, what do you base this on? Do you think drinking alcohol (any amount) is different than using drugs when raising a child? Any amount of alcohol is a substance abuser???

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 11:39 PM

Any amount of alcohol is a substance abuser???

Any amount of prescribed drugs is substance abuse?

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 11:44 PM

Cindylee

09-20-2009, 11:45 PM

Any amount of prescribed drugs is substance abuse?

No, excess amounts of alcohol or prescription drugs is substance abuse.

ResJudicata

09-20-2009, 11:52 PM

Substance abuse

"Although the term substance can refer to any physical matter, substance abuse has come to refer to the overindulgence in and dependence of a drug or other chemical leading to effects that are detrimental to the individual's physical and mental health, or the welfare of others.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_abuse

:rolleyes:

From your link:

The disorder is characterized by a pattern of continued pathological use of a medication, non-medically indicated drug or toxin,

Substance abuse is sometimes used as a synonym for drug abuse, drug addiction, and chemical dependency, but actually refers to the use of substances in a manner outside sociocultural conventions. All use of controlled drugs and all use of other drugs in a manner not dictated by convention (e.g. according to physician's orders or societal norms) is abuse according to this definition, however there is no universally accepted definition of substance abuse.

Michael was under the control of a doctor, and all his drugs were prescribed by a doctor, therefore your link wouldn't apply to him.

Imperfect4

09-20-2009, 11:59 PM

<snipped>

Michael was under the control of a doctor, and all his drugs were prescribed by a doctor, therefore your link wouldn't apply to him.

Nice try. No cigar.

But fear not. I think you could be the hands down winner for being dead wrong the most number of times in a single day of posting. Congratulations. :thumbup:

Personal Responsibility. It's where it's at. :wink:

ResJudicata

09-21-2009, 12:17 AM

Nice try. No cigar.

But fear not. I think you could be the hands down winner for being dead wrong the most number of times in a single day of posting. Congratulations. :thumbup:

Personal Responsibility. It's where it's at. :wink:

Okay then.. under your wiki description, Michael is a substance abuser, and his doctor is a drug dealer. Drug dealers also need to learn about personal responsibility.

Imperfect4

09-21-2009, 12:18 AM

Okay then.. under your wiki description, Michael is a substance abuser, and his doctor is a drug dealer. Drug dealers also need to learn about personal responsibility.

No argument there. :smile:

Imperfect4

09-21-2009, 12:30 AM

MJ was not a perfect parent. Neither was I. Nor were my parents. Not even MJ's parents.

Life goes on. It should continue for those children without them constantly having to read or hear what an awful person MJ was. Nothing anyone can do to undo the past. They need to be taught personal accountability instead of relying on the victim mentality.

Bolded to address. Amen!