All things michael jackson 5

[tiptop]

As far as I know the Beatles catalogue is worth 1 billion!

Perhaps. But that doesnt all go to the MJ estate.

[who_is_it]

How can you post this as a FACT? It is not out of the realm of possibility that Dr Murray left a sryinge loaded with Propofol hooked to the neddle or catheter in his arm. While Dr. Murray was out of the room, MJ could have become awake and pushed a lethal dose into his own arm thinking that it was the proper amount to administer. No one knows, certainly not you or I or anyone else for that matter. This is not an opinion but simply a possibility.

IF he had been self injecting, too, he wouldn't have hired a doctor imo.

[who_is_it]

Possibly.

And only getting better with the release of 'Rock Band: The Beatles' video game. :)

Which video game?

[impartial]

As far as I know the Beatles catalogue is worth 1 billion!


Worth to who?

Did MJ buy the Beatles rights, the label's rights, both?

He shares ownership with Sony, Sony has the majority share. What label(s) was/were involved ie Capitol.

I don't think MJ was getting a huge sum in royalties, otherwise he wouldn't have been in the financial problems he found himself in.

imo

[tiptop]

Possibly.

And only getting better with the release of 'Rock Band: The Beatles' video game. :)

Lots of winners if this is a hit:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-beatles31-2009aug31,0,2943351.story

The MJ estate; Apple Corp, representing Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr and the estates of John Lennon and George Harrison; not to mention Viacom, Inc.

[tiptop]

Worth to who?

Did MJ buy the Beatles rights, the label's rights, both?

He shares ownership with Sony, Sony has the majority share. What label(s) was/were involved ie Capitol.

I don't think MJ was getting a huge sum in royalties, otherwise he wouldn't have been in the financial problems he found himself in.

imo

I think some people have this notion that anything Beatles is going to put money in the pocket of MJ's kids. And that is not true.....

[who_is_it]

I think some people have this notion that anything Beatles is going to put money in the pocket of MJ's kids. And that is not true.....

Imo we don't have to worry if Michael's children will have "enough" money in the future. Hundred millions children in the world have less than Michael's children. Even if they inherited 1 million bucks "only" they were much richer than the poorest children in Africa.

I just think of the ANS case; some justified the father's (imo) wrong actions by the daughter's future need of money. Imo we better should care if the poor have enough... -- not the children of the rich.

[who_is_it]

Check out the link posted by tiptop. :)

The commercials have been airing for a while now. I must say one such commercial is a little eerie. In the sense that John Lennon & George Harrison both appear in said commercial.

I apologize for the off topic.

Thanks, I will check.

[who_is_it]

Maybe you should read my comment more throrughly before making this statement. My post indicated a possible one time push from a syringe that Dr. Murray loaded with propofol and had set up in MJ's arm beforehand. I did not indicate that he was self injecting on a regular basis.

I got this, Eagle, that you were just talking about the POSSIBILITY... but why would he do so if he wasn't self injecting on a regular basis!?

[warhorse46]

----------------

Just more conspiracy theories. Face the facts........it was an accident and not intentional. If it had been as u say, Murray would be dead by now for talking to LE and telling the truth.

imo



According to the ME, Jackson's death was not accidental, he ruled it a homicide. The ME has only 5 choices on the manner of death.
1. Natural
2. Homicide
3. Suicide
4. Accidental
5. Undetermined

[tiptop]

Imo we don't have to worry if Michael's children will have "enough" money in the future. Hundred millions children in the world have less than Michael's children. Even if they inherited 1 million bucks "only" they were much richer than the poorest children in Africa.

I just think of the ANS case; some justified the father's (imo) wrong actions by the daughter's future need of money. Imo we better should care if the poor have enough... -- not the children of the rich.

lol, well ---- this is the MJ Entertainment thread, and some folks are worried that MJ's kids wont have enough to survive. ANS kids dont apply here.

But we should worry about MJ's kids. Because the time will come soon when we will hear about them not having what they need. And the uproar will be HOW IS THE POSSIBLE? And the answer will be, because MJ didnt plan accordingly despite Sony and Beatles and all the other stuff he thought would work......

[tiptop]

Michael Jackson's Estate: Saved by the Beatles

Whether his debts..... [w]ill mean Jackson died bankrupt depends heavily on the worth of Sony/ATV. Jackson had other assets, including rights to many of his own songs, as well as about 1,000 hours of rehearsal footage leading up to this summer's London concert tour and possibly about 100 unreleased songs. But none of those assets are likely to be nearly as valuable as his stake in Sony/ATV, which has been valued at anywhere from $390 million to $1 billion.

Jackson's 1985 purchase of ATV Music, which included in its catalog some 250 Beatles tunes, for $47.5 million formed the basis of his stake in the music-publishing business and was by far his shrewdest music deal.

Read the rest here:

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1908185,00.html


lol - yeah, we'll see...........

[tiptop]

The executors have a duty to invest wisely on behalf of the estate. If the kids are ever left needy, it will be the fault of those charged with managing the estate.

hahahaha - and how will that help the kids when they are left with nothing substantial?

"Oh - its OK, its the fault of the estate......"

[tiptop]

The royalty checks will still be coming long after all of us are gone, so we probably won't see much. :wink:

lol- you just keep thinking that.............

Once MJ's estate gets out of debt, there will be little to nothing for the future.......for the kids............

[retiredcop]

If the songbook is so valuable, why didn't MJ have a ton of cash in the bank, why was the debt against Neverland $350M and it's value $60M.

Michael was losing Neverland, he couldn't pay the mortgage.

And I really don't hear the Beatles songs being played much. MJ's music will have an increase in airplay for a while, but for how long.

Also, it depends on what the original agreements were between the label, artist and writer. The label gets the lion share, the writer more than the artist, with the artist left with the smallest amount of the royalties while being responsible for all the costs of the concerts, band members, etc.

imo

http://entrepreneur-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_michael_jackson_could_never_be_broke#ixzz0Qiaz baPc

snipped from link:

Jackson's half ownership in ATV/Sony which owns the Beatles catalog estimated to be worth as much as $2 billion is held in a trust that shields it from his creditors.

[tiptop]

The royalty checks will still be coming long after all of us are gone, so we probably won't see much. :wink:


You really think that Beatles songs are going to go on for ever and ever? Royalty checks???? Nope.........

[GentleBreeze]

I hope you are correct, for the sake of the children. Michael owned it with Sony. It's not 100 percent to him. Plus Paul McCartney did manage to gain control of a few songs, not many though. Personally I think it will go toward MJ's debt and be exhausted. Wouldn't surprise me if the kids were left struggling in 15-20 years.

I think the catalog is in a trust for MJs children.

Just about every expert financial analysts that has spoken out has said the MJ will pay his debts and have at least 200 million left over. It is very hard to even predict how much the estate will make because money is coming in all the time. Some have said he will make more sooner posthumously than Elvis has over the last 32 years.

He has already made about 160 million and still climbing so the estate is quickly making money to be able to pay his creditors off.

I have seen articles also state that the B. catalog alone can be worth 1-2 billion.

I believe the kids will have no problem at all living on that.

But I would love for Prince to write a book about his father and for Paris to write one too.

imo

[tiptop]

They have a fiduciary duty to manage the estate prudently and effectively, and they are compenstated for it. The estate can't be at fault, but the people payed to manage it can be.

And there will be financial compensation for the kids when this happens? No, of course not. If pursued, it would be tied up in court for years. Meanwhile, the kids have nothing.

[BOZGAL2]

Maybe you should read my comment more throrughly before making this statement. My post indicated a possible one time push from a syringe that Dr. Murray loaded with propofol and had set up in MJ's arm beforehand. I did not indicate that he was self injecting on a regular basis.

If the Diprivan was set up properly with an IV pump that would be impossible.

JMO

[retiredcop]

snipped from the link:

Jackson's half ownership in ATV/Sony which owns the Beatles catalog estimated to be worth as much as $2 billion is held in a trust that shields it from his creditors.

Read more: http://entrepreneur-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_michael_jackson_could_never_be_broke#ixzz0QrOb PsRA

OK, I'll post this again since no one has noticed it. This is the third time.

[tiptop]

I think the catalog is in a trust for MJs children.

Just about every expert financial analysts that has spoken out has said the MJ will pay his debts and have at least 200 million left over. It is very hard to even predict how much the estate will make because money is coming in all the time. Some have said he will make more sooner posthumously than Elvis has over the last 32 years.

He has already made about 160 million and still climbing so the estate is quickly making money to be able to pay his creditors off.

I have seen articles also state that the B. catalog alone can be worth 1-2 billion.

I believe the kids will have no problem at all living on that.

But I would love for Prince to write a book about his father and for Paris to write one too.

imo

Well, we shall see. The interest in MJ has already become less since his passing. Jermaine can hem-haw all he wants. No one wants to be associated with a tribute to Michael. Not now, not in June. The MJ estate will continue to see a profit from the Sony/Beatles catalog, but it will soon fade. Those profits will be marginal over the coming years. And the kids will be scrambling for income in years to come.

[GentleBreeze]

Michael Jackson's Estate: Saved by the Beatles

Whether his debts..... [w]ill mean Jackson died bankrupt depends heavily on the worth of Sony/ATV. Jackson had other assets, including rights to many of his own songs, as well as about 1,000 hours of rehearsal footage leading up to this summer's London concert tour and possibly about 100 unreleased songs. But none of those assets are likely to be nearly as valuable as his stake in Sony/ATV, which has been valued at anywhere from $390 million to $1 billion.

Jackson's 1985 purchase of ATV Music, which included in its catalog some 250 Beatles tunes, for $47.5 million formed the basis of his stake in the music-publishing business and was by far his shrewdest music deal.

Read the rest here:

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1908185,00.html

Didnt Branca say they have no intentions of selling the catalog?

imo

[tiptop]

My grandma made a living from acting in tiny movie and tv bits, and some commercials, and retired comfortably until she died about 8 years ago. Do you know that she continues to earn royalty checks from ancient movies and ancient tv reruns. Her estate has to file tax returns every year, due to royalty earnings. Its amazing really, and I'm pretty sure MJ's estate will reap the rewards of royalty payments for years and years to come.

I totally understand about royalties and the profits from them. Are you comparing your grandmother with MJ and his wealth? You're pretty sure??????????? lol

[GentleBreeze]

Well, we shall see. The interest in MJ has already become less since his passing. Jermaine can hem-haw all he wants. No one wants to be associated with a tribute to Michael. Not now, not in June. The MJ estate will continue to see a profit from the Sony/Beatles catalog, but it will soon fade. Those profits will be marginal over the coming years. And the kids will be scrambling for income in years to come.

I think they will be stunning and certainly enough yearly to support even children of a famous entertainer. MJ is no longer here on his spending sprees and it has been reported he was already bringing in millions every year on royalties and residuals he received. That is not chicken feed and that amount will increase.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I totally understand about royalties and the profits from them. Are you comparing your grandmother with MJ and his wealth? You're pretty sure??????????? lol

I think they were just trying to say that these children will be receiving these royalties the rest of their lives.

I agree. Lack of money will not be a problem

[tiptop]

Jermaine isn't Michael. There has never been an interest in Jermaine, why would anyone expect it to change because Michael died? Michael is where the interest lies. Have you not read the reports of the record breaking sales since his death? He has millions and millions of fans from every corner of earth, and he will not soon be forgotten.


Yeah......LOL.....we shall see what the future holds. Immediately after a famous death is different than long-term. No one is going to give a poop about about Michael in a year. Elvis didnt have questionable molestation charges hanging over his head. People will have time to think and judge..... and forget. And right or wrong, MJ will drift off into the sunset.

[GentleBreeze]

Jermaine isn't Michael. There has never been an interest in Jermaine, why would anyone expect it to change because Michael died? Michael is where the interest lies. Have you not read the reports of the record breaking sales since his death? He has millions and millions of fans from every corner of earth, and he will not soon be forgotten.

Yes, I saw that on the days right after he died and then the tributes held in so many other countries on his birthday. I was shocked really. It didn't matter if they didn't speak the same language they knew his dance and songs by heart.

That is where MJ will have the advantage. He wasn't just an American entertainer but a world wide entertainer.

Michael's music will live on.

imo

[BOZGAL2]

There has been no evidence that an IV Pump was in that room at the time of MJ's death. That being said if you know anything about an IV pump, you can set the dose up or down. MJ may have seen Dr. M. do that and increased it himself. Just a possibility, not gospel according to Eagle.

I thought I had read there was an IV stand in the room. I would think maybe an IV pump as well. And I do know quite a bit about IV pumps. They are not as easy to program or change as one might think.

If there was not an IV pump there, it tends to throw a wrench into so many people's opinion that DR M is not at fault here. Makes me shutter to think DR M had loaded syringes laying on the nightstand.

Of course that is my opinion and another possibility.

[tiptop]

Yeah. I'm thinking that MJ brings more in a week than my grandma did in a lifetime or a couple lifetimes. I'm positive Thriller gets played a whole lot more than anything my grandma acted in.

LOL - why did you mention her then? What was the comparison?

[daniel green]

I think the catalog is in a trust for MJs children.

snipped

MJ only owned a portion of the catalog and his portion was heavily, heavily mortgaged.

[GentleBreeze]

Yeah......LOL.....we shall see what the future holds. Immediately after a famous death is different than long-term. No one is going to give a poop about about Michael in a year. Elvis didn't have questionable molestation charges hanging over his head. People will have time to think and judge..... and forget. And right or wrong, MJ will drift off into the sunset.

I don't agree. Elivis was condemned by many especially parents who did not approve of his style but they aren't the ones that bought his records anyway so it doesn't matter just like it wont matter with MJ.

MJ has one of the largest fan bases ever. Not many entertainers are known and loved across the globe. What the naysayers say about MJ will not make a blip or deter the true fans. The naysayers don't buy anyway but MJ fans do and they are millions of them.

imo

[daniel green]

Just about every expert financial analysts that has spoken out has said the MJ will pay his debts and have at least 200 million left over. It is very hard to even predict how much the estate will make because money is coming in all the time. Some have said he will make more sooner posthumously than Elvis has over the last 32 years.

snipped

What expert financial analysts would those be?

Because the financial analyses I have read--in the NYT and WSJ--say that nobody knows the shape of the estate because of the unbelievably large debt MJ was in.

[GentleBreeze]

What expert financial analysts would those be?

Because the financial analyses I have read--in the NYT and WSJ--say that nobody knows the shape of the estate because of the unbelievably large debt MJ was in.

I don't have a clue which articles I have read where it was discussed. I have read probably a 1000 links or more in a little over 2 months.

Plus this has been thoroughly discussed on the cable network shows by those with this expertise.

All have said that even now they are expecting after debts are paid for the estate to be worth at least 200 million and like I said that isn't chicken feed and the money will come in for many many years maybe forever.

imo

[Emerald]

If the songbook is so valuable, why didn't MJ have a ton of cash in the bank, why was the debt against Neverland $350M and it's value $60M.

Michael was losing Neverland, he couldn't pay the mortgage.

And I really don't hear the Beatles songs being played much. MJ's music will have an increase in airplay for a while, but for how long.

Also, it depends on what the original agreements were between the label, artist and writer. The label gets the lion share, the writer more than the artist, with the artist left with the smallest amount of the royalties while being responsible for all the costs of the concerts, band members, etc.

imo


JMO

MJ was a spendthrift. When anyone had the audacity to point that out to him, he would get new representation.

There have been many reports that MJ could more than sustain the debt, but not be the spendthrift. Since his death, lots of $$$ coming in. None going out except to settle the liens against the estate.

There is ample left for the children.

[warhorse46]

There has been no evidence that an IV Pump was in that room at the time of MJ's death. That being said if you know anything about an IV pump, you can set the dose up or down. If there was one and I doubt it, MJ may have seen Dr. M. do that and increased it himself. Just a possibility, not gospel according to Eagle.


IV pumps have a lock out so that patients cannot change the dosage or rate. Unless Michael knew the lock out code he could not have changed the pump. If there was one.

[tiptop]

I don't agree. Elivis was condemned by many especially parents who did not approve of his style but they aren't the ones that bought his records anyway so it doesn't matter just like it wont matter with MJ.

MJ has one of the largest fan bases ever. Not many entertainers are known and loved across the globe. What the naysayers say about MJ will not make a blip or deter the true fans. The naysayers don't buy anyway but MJ fans do and they are millions of them.

imo


Did people perceive Elvis as a child molester? No, of course not. His alleged drug use can be somewhat understood by many people. Prescription meds ---- stuff you could get from the guy on the corner ---- it all pales in comparison to being thought of as a man who abuses boys.

Again, we shall see what the future holds for MJ, Inc. IMO the Beatles stuff will bring a profit for a short time. How popular is Elvis music now? Yes, he has his fans but is it on commercials? On TV? Have you seen an Elvis compilation CD for sale on an infomercial lately? NOPE. Give it time, MJ will be right there with Elvis....

[impartial]

...

I beg to differ.

"The LA County Coroner has just officially announced the cause of Michael Jackson's death -- Acute Propofol intoxication."

This tells anyone with any level of medical knowledge that Acute means an overdose. Larger than normal, (severe). Spin it any way you want to, he was overdosed according to the coroner.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/28/michael-jackson-coroner-report/


Acute in medical terms simply means rapid onset and due to the rapid onset is usually a more serious condition that requires immediate medical attention ... acute is the opposite of chronic. For example, appendicitis can be an acute condition, or it could be chronic. In the chronic type of appendicitis, the infection has usually walled off and the risk of peritonitis is less than in the acute appendicitis.



imo

[daniel green]

The King of Pop may have lived well, but he died surrounded by mountains of debt. Michael Jackson--who passed away Thursday at the age of 50--reportedly owes over $400 million in debt, despite selling more than 61 million albums over the course of his lifetime.
... One forensic accountant testified that the singer had an "ongoing
cash crisis" and was spending $20 million to $30 million more per year
than he earned. In March of last year, the singer faced foreclosure on Neverland. He also repeatedly failed to make mortgage payments on a house in Los Angeles that had been used for years by his family.
This was followed by a slew of lawsuits, including a $7 million one from Sheik Abdulla bin Hamad Al Khalifa, the second son of the king of Bahrain.

http://airamerica.com/blog/2009/jun/26/michael-jackson-died-400-million-debt

[daniel green]

Acute in medical terms simply means rapid onset and due to the rapid onset is usually a more serious condition that requires immediate medical attention ... acute is the opposite of chronic. snipped

Indeed. Thank you for noting that.

[impartial]

IV pumps have a lock out so that patients cannot change the dosage or rate. Unless Michael knew the lock out code he could not have changed the pump. If there was one.



The line isn't locked though ... patient's in hospitals don't have access to syringes to push a drug through the line.

Not that it happened here, but since people are throwing out possibilities, I guess a possibility is that Michael could have pushed something into his line when Dr. Murray was in the bathroom.

imo

[impartial]

I can see where death might qualify as a "more serious condition", that required immediate attention, and the lack of that immediate attention is a factor in ruling this a homicide.



Yes, but the term acute doesn't necessarily translate to overdose as in a dose that is not within the normal dosage range. 25 mgs is within the normal range. The coronor did not state overdose, but acute intoxication as a result of diprivan with the contributing factors of other drugs as the cause of death.

The synergistic affects of the combination of drugs with all of the individual drugs being within the normal dosing ranges could be the cause of death, or perhaps there is something more in the tox report and therefore the reason the tox report has been sealed.

imo

[impartial]

Don't you believe the coroner considered those possibilities prior to concluding to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty that MJ's death was at the hands of another?


The fact that Dr. Murray said he gave the drugs ... that statement alone would lead to the conclusion that the drugs were not accidentally ingested. Accidental overdose on a death certificate is as a result of an incorrect dosage inadvertently administered ie the prescription called for 25 mgs, the pharmacy inadvertently filled it with 100 mgs., the mistake was by the pharmacy was not detected prior to the meds being given ... ergo, accidental overdose. Or accidental overdose could also be the wrong medication was inadvertently given.

The term homicide does not necessarily equate to a crime being committed. There have been many links explaining this.

imo

[retiredcop]

Yes, but the term acute doesn't necessarily translate to overdose as in a dose that is not within the normal dosage range. 25 mgs is within the normal range. The coronor did not state overdose, but acute intoxication as a result of diprivan with the contributing factors of other drugs as the cause of death.

The synergistic affects of the combination of drugs with all of the individual drugs being within the normal dosing ranges could be the cause of death, or perhaps there is something more in the tox report and therefore the reason the tox report has been sealed.

imo

Thank you for explaining acute intoxication. You're right. The coroner did not say overdose. That always bothered me that the 25mg was a low dosage. I certainly would like to see everything in the tox report.
Dr Murray did say he didn't give him anything that should have killed him. He had been giving the same drugs all along, but on this one night he died. I find that odd.

in my opinion

[impartial]

I don't. He abused his body and his heart for years, he was 50 years old. He overloaded it once too often.


With the help of his friends.

What's sad is that when people are addicted to prescription drugs that are actually prescribed for them, they don't recognize as easily that they are addicts ... they aren't getting their drugs illegally from a connection on a corner.

But addicted they are, just the same as the person that is illegally obtaining the drugs.

imo

[Imperfect4]

I don't. He abused his body and his heart for years, he was 50 years old. He overloaded it once too often.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp -- at least for me. He was underfed and over medicated for decades. He would be in a weakened physical condition on a good day, never mind on days when he rehearsed for his tour. He was 50. The human body can only handle so much stress and abuse. Especially the heart.

[impartial]

Earlier today I mentioned the remote possibility that the labels were switched on the bottles, leading Murray to reasonably believe he was giving a smaller dosage, even though any dosage was a reckless act on his part. I tried to consider the possibility that Murray was set up by people who would stand to be enriched by Michael's death. It was not received very favorably. But I think it is a possibility that Murray's role might be a lesser evil than the evil of others, and that his financial disaster made him prone to be used by really bad people, who would allow the least culpable to be the one holding the blame, while they count their money made of MJ's death


Pharmacuetical errors are actually fairly common. Accidentally pushing a med instead of hanging it; wrong dosing being given; wrong medication; wrong instructions, etc. ... some with little to no reactions other than the normal side affects, some with disasterous results (woman given the wrong instructions on her migraine headache medication resulting in the amputation of both of her feet), some with death as the result.

Not so far outside the realm of possibility.

imo

[impartial]

Thank you for explaining acute intoxication. You're right. The coroner did not say overdose. That always bothered me that the 25mg was a low dosage. I certainly would like to see everything in the tox report.
Dr Murray did say he didn't give him anything that should have killed him. He had been giving the same drugs all along, but on this one night he died. I find that odd.

in my opinion


You're welcome.

Every time an anesthetic is used, there is a risk of death.

imo

[retiredcop]

Pharmacuetical errors are actually fairly common. Accidentally pushing a med instead of hanging it; wrong dosing being given; wrong medication; wrong instructions, etc. ... some with little to no reactions other than the normal side affects, some with disasterous results (woman given the wrong instructions on her migraine headache medication resulting in the amputation of both of her feet), some with death as the result.

Not so far outside the realm of possibility.

imo

I don't remember if the coroner released the amounts of each drug found in his system or just the drugs themselves. Do you?

[Emerald]

Thanks LaToya for a truthful, outspoken and fearless interview.
The girl has spunk!


I didn't get to see it. Can you give a synopsis please?

[retiredcop]

If thats the case, its pretty unfortunate for Murray to have the one innocent lethal pharmaceutical error, with the one drug that is not to be administered at home, without proper equipment or supervision.

You continue to overlook the fact it is not illegal to administer Diprivan in a home setting. That is not what would make this a homicide. You also don't know what equipment was there. GMAB

in my opinion

[Emerald]

She said her brother was not gay and that he loved women, not little boys.

Wow! That's interesting. Not at all what she said when MJ was going through the first accusations of molestation.

I didn't get to see it, because my DTV dish needs to be repaired. Can get everything but local channels. The 20/20 site is selling the interview forr $29.95. Nothing on YouTube.

[retiredcop]

It wouldn't matter until they file the murder charges.

It would matter as to whether they would file any charges. Murder no, manslaughter maybe, but it is odd no charges have been filed yet.

in my opinion

[impartial]

Probable cause for multiple search warrants equate to a criminal investigation. The death certificate allows for the option of accidental, and that wasn't the box that was checked. And the links can be forwarded to Murray's criminal defense attorney, to present as evidence of his client's innocence, but I don't beleive the coroner is going to change the death certificate to read as an accidental death. And I haven't heard anything that would create justification in this death. No durress, No necessity, Self Defense..No, defense of property? No Defense of others? No. For a greater good? I don't think so.

Homicide may not necessarily equate to a crime, but there are a lot of defense attorneys making a bundle from their homicide involved clients.
:wink:


I have seen so many more egregious acts by physicians that resulted in the deaths of patients than what has been reported here that never resulted in anything more than a malpractice action.

The fact that MJ is the deceased is the reason imo for the investigation, together with it being on the heels of Anna Nicole and Heath Ledger.

Ultimately, I think they may try to charge him with manslaughter because of the public nature of the circumstances ... but they may go with the more sure thing along the lines of charges under the Business & Professions Code, which are misdemeanors.

imo

[retiredcop]

I agree with you, its not the diprivan that makes it a homicide, its the diprivan polluted dead body that makes it a homicide.

Again, it is not illegal to administer Diprivan in a home setting. That is what you keep overlooking. That does not make it a homicide.

in my opinion

[impartial]

Again, it is not illegal to administer Diprivan in a home setting. That is what you keep overlooking. That does not make it a homicide.

in my opinion


It's a breach of the standard of practice, which is a tort.

There are also violations of the Business & Professions Code ... but even those may be problematic since diprivan is not a controlled substance because it's not considered to have a risk of addiction.

Who knows where they will go with this.

imo

[retiredcop]

It's a breach of the standard of practice, which is a tort.

There are also violations of the Business & Professions Code ... but even those may be problematic since diprivan is not a controlled substance because it's not considered to have a risk of addiction.

Who knows where they will go with this.

imo

Are violations of the Business & Professions Code criminal violations?

[retiredcop]

And I think you keep overlooking the dead body that caught the attention of the police.

Since you keep bringing up the administering Diprivan in the home setting without proper equipment (which you don't know for sure) it is looking like that is what you think is making this criminal. It has nothing to do with a dead body. That is a given.

So this leads me to the question of what are you trying to say anyway?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

It was a detailed interview but Toy was careful not to point specific fingers.
She spoke about MJ's house being ransacked when she arrived from the hospital and money and cash missing.

She signed the death certificate because 'Dr" Murray refused to do so.
Michael had repeatedly told her he was afraid of being murdered.
Dr. Murray called Prince to Michaels room even though MJ was already dead,LaToya said that was a ruse to cover his a**

She arranged the memorial service and has been very close to the children. They call her Auntie Toy.
Paris is taking the death the hardest.
The doctors should have known Michael had a problem and not yielded to his demands.
The family tried to see Michael often but were kept away by his so called security people.

She signed the death certificate? LOL Doctors sign death certificates not family members. What else is new with her babbling? Looks like it's the same old Jackson type mumbo jumbo to me.

I hope Dr Murray got all of that interview. She could very well be looking at a lawsuit.

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

Well, we shall see. The interest in MJ has already become less since his passing. Jermaine can hem-haw all he wants. No one wants to be associated with a tribute to Michael. Not now, not in June. The MJ estate will continue to see a profit from the Sony/Beatles catalog, but it will soon fade. Those profits will be marginal over the coming years. And the kids will be scrambling for income in years to come.

Maybe people are not interested to be associated with Jermaine. I have not seen any negative reports about Janet honoring her brother tomorrow at the MTV awards.

I think the trust fund will do nicely for his children for years to come.

[GentleBreeze]

The fact that Dr. Murray said he gave the drugs ... that statement alone would lead to the conclusion that the drugs were not accidentally ingested. Accidental overdose on a death certificate is as a result of an incorrect dosage inadvertently administered ie the prescription called for 25 mgs, the pharmacy inadvertently filled it with 100 mgs., the mistake was by the pharmacy was not detected prior to the meds being given ... ergo, accidental overdose. Or accidental overdose could also be the wrong medication was inadvertently given.

The term homicide does not necessarily equate to a crime being committed. There have been many links explaining this.

imo

So under what premises would you think this homicide is not a criminal homicide?

It isn't a criminal homicide when the State of Federal carries out an execution.

It isn't a criminal homicide if it is justifiable homicide. Such as a robber comes into a store with a weapon with intent to do harm and was shot by store owner or clerk.

It isn't a criminal homicide if the one who commits the homicide was unconscious at the time.

Murray was not a police officer in the line of duty,

Murray was not fighting our enemies in war.

:confused:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe people are not interested to be associated with Jermaine. I have not seen any negative reports about Janet honoring her brother tomorrow at the MTV awards.

I think the trust fund will do nicely for his children for years to come.

Imo, that is a lot of it, FH. I think those in the music world know that this really isn't about Michael and all about Jermaine using MJs name to benefit himself.

I just bet at times MJ has talked about the turbulent times he had with his brother through the years.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

And as for comparing MJ and Elvis - You said MJ was perceived as a child molester which was never proven, but Elvis was perceived as something else for dating 14 year old Priscilla Presley.
In most states that is considered statutory rape.

Yes, I wasn't going to mention that but there were whispers for years about Elvis and underage teenage girls (groupies who came to his shows). His entourage talked about how they selected them out of the audience for him and they had to have certain characteristics.

But both of their music will go on. Elvis posthumously brings in millions each year even 32 years later and so will MJ.

imo

[Firehead11]

Imo, that is a lot of it, FH. I think those in the music world know that this really isn't about Michael and all about Jermaine using MJs name to benefit himself.

I just bet at times MJ has talked about the turbulent times he had with his brother through the years.

imo

IMO, the more we learn about his life, the more we become upset over the fact that his siblings are still using Jackson. I do not include Janet in this nor do I include his mother. It is one thing to have a tribute to Jackson, quite another thing to attempt to rejump start your career over Michael's dead body. There were plenty of posters that were upset with Joe when he came out to the media and announced new record contracts from his record company and NOTHING was said about how sorrowful he was feeling about his son's death! :scared:

IMO, there are/were some shady deals behind the scenes and it does raise the hinky meter off. I still can't get past the fact that Tohme held 5.5 million dollars for over a month from Michael's estate and I have to question why.

[Firehead11]

Yes, I wasn't going to mention that but there were whispers for years about Elvis and underage teenage girls (groupies who came to his shows). His entourage talked about how they selected them out of the audience for him and they had to have certain characteristics.

But both of their music will go on. Elvis posthumously brings in millions each year even 32 years later and so will MJ.

imo

I had watched an HBO special with Elvis many years ago and I was surprised about how he talked about his fans and what he expected from them if he choose one of them.

[retiredcop]

And as for comparing MJ and Elvis - You said MJ was perceived as a child molester which was never proven, but Elvis was perceived as something else for dating 14 year old Priscilla Presley.
In most states that is considered statutory rape.

You have the wrong poster. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[retiredcop]

That would be stupid of her to lie about signing the death certificate when I'm sure copies of it are readily available to the media or anyone else.

Copy of Death Certificate:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/07/jackson-death-certificate/

[retiredcop]

LOL Murray will be looking for a lawyer to represent his crooked self when he is charged and convicted for murder.
And FYI I signed my mother's death certificate at the morturary.

Dr Murray has had a lawyer all along. It would help if you would bring yourself up to date on this case. I don't know what you signed, but the original death certificate would not be available to sign at the mortuary.
Maybe you signed responsibility to pay the bill?

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

It is just possible that if anyone supplied information for the certificate, that they might have signed something. I can't tell what the box states next to LaToya's name.

[Emerald]

It was a detailed interview but Toy was careful not to point specific fingers.
She spoke about MJ's house being ransacked when she arrived from the hospital and money and cash missing.

She signed the death certificate because 'Dr" Murray refused to do so.
Michael had repeatedly told her he was afraid of being murdered.
Dr. Murray called Prince to Michaels room even though MJ was already dead,LaToya said that was a ruse to cover his a**

She arranged the memorial service and has been very close to the children. They call her Auntie Toy.
Paris is taking the death the hardest.
The doctors should have known Michael had a problem and not yielded to his demands.
The family tried to see Michael often but were kept away by his so called security people.

How does LaToya know if there was cash in the home if she was not allowed in there when MJ was alive? Is LaToya mad that she did not get to ransack and loot the home first?

MJ was an addict. He was not forced to lay down and be fed drugs. The person who administered them is responsible for their own actions as well.

The gate to MJ's home worked both ways. So do the phones, mail and computers. If MJ wanted to visit with his Family, he could have done so.

[retiredcop]

I think we all know the drill by now. The doctor of record is asked if he WILL SIGN the death certificate. If the doctor refuses it ends there and the ME does an autopsy.

I didn't sign any death certificate at the mortuary for either my mother or father. The doctor said he would sign on both so no autopsies were done. The death certificate was given to me approximately 6 weeks later after being filed. I was given a temp death certificate for whatever I needed a death certificate for to handle any estate matters. I didn't sign that either. I signed paperwork regarding the funeral arrangements at the mortuary.

Who knows what LaToya signed at the hospital, but it wasn't the death certificate.

LaToya has no credibility. She has told many different stories. I don't believe a word out of her mouth.

I did notice she got a little hot under the collar over a question from Walters.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

It is just possible that if anyone supplied information for the certificate, that they might have signed something. I can't tell what the box states next to LaToya's name.

She is the informant. She supplied information. I think what's blacked out would be her address ect. Maybe she had to sign as informant. She probably supplied information to the hospital and maybe signed something for that paperwork the hospital would have needed. There would NOT have been a death certificate at the hospital for anyone to sign. Not at the mortuary either.



in my opinion

[warhorse46]

It was a detailed interview but Toy was careful not to point specific fingers.
She spoke about MJ's house being ransacked when she arrived from the hospital and money and cash missing.

She signed the death certificate because 'Dr" Murray refused to do so.
Michael had repeatedly told her he was afraid of being murdered.
Dr. Murray called Prince to Michaels room even though MJ was already dead,LaToya said that was a ruse to cover his a**

She arranged the memorial service and has been very close to the children. They call her Auntie Toy.
Paris is taking the death the hardest.
The doctors should have known Michael had a problem and not yielded to his demands.
The family tried to see Michael often but were kept away by his so called security people.


<<<She signed the death certificate because 'Dr" Murray refused to do so.
Michael had repeatedly told her he was afraid of being murdered.>>>
That statement is a falsehood so I am VERY suspect of the truthfulness of the rest of her interview. LaToya is not qualified & cannot legally sign a death certificate unless she has MD behind her name.

[retiredcop]

I am confused over the death certificate issue, so I pulled out a copy of a death certificate I have for a late friend. It looks exactly like the death certificate in the link, except it's for a different California county.

I can't find any place on the death certificate where a family member would sign. There is a section entitled "Informant" which lists the name, relationship, and address of the person who, at least in my friend's situation, informed the coroner of the death. There is no provision for a signature from the "informant."

There are spaces for signatures for the local registrar and embalmer (under the section "Funeral Director/Local Registrar"), "certifier" (signature and title of certifier, along with "license number" located in the "Physician's Certification" section of the certificate), and for the coroner (in the "Coroner's Use only" section).

There are no other spaces for signatures. So unless Latoya signed under the "certifier" section, which seems odd to me, I can't figure out what she's talking about.

Could there have been another form provided at the hospital that she signed that she is mistaking for the official "Certificate of Death" filed with the County Department of Health and Human Services?

imo

She is saying she signed the death certificate because Dr Murray refused. I guess she means she signed in place of the doctor. That, in itself, could not possibly be true.

She would have been asked for information as next of kin at the hospital for their paperwork. The hospital wants to get paid for services rendered.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Hi retired cop,

According to the death certificate in my possession, here is what Dr. Murray would have vouched for had he signed his name in the space marked "Signature and Title of Certifier," in the "Physician's Certification" section of the Certificate of Death:

114. I certify that to the best of my knowledge death occurred at the hour, date and place stated from the causes stated.

(A) Decedent attended since (mm/dd/ccyy)

(B) Decedent last seen alive (mm/dd/ccyy)

He would have also provided his license number, mailing address, and zip code.

Yes, and when the doctor refuses to sign because he doesn't know what caused the death, an autopsy is automatically performed. A family member can not sign for a doctor and stop an autopsy. Geez wouldn't that be easy if a family member killed their relative?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I just want to add that in the case of my friend, no physician or medical professional ever signed the death certificate because it became a coroner's case due to questions surrounding the exact cause of death.

I am in no way defending Murray, but maybe that's why he didn't sign it?

That's exactly why he refused to sign. He wanted an autopsy. He has said from the beginning he gave him nothing that should have killed him. He wanted to find out what killed him too.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Hi RC,

So when she signed she certified that to the best of her knowledge, death occurred at the hour, date and place stated from the causes stated. She also vouched for how long she had been attending the decedent and when he was last seen alive.

What did she put in the space marked "License number" next to her signature and title? :laugh:

You're right -- as "informant" she also could have provided other information included on the death certificate such as participation in the U.S. armed forces, marital status at time of death, education, race, usual occupation, and information regarding surviving spouse and names and birth states of decedent's mother and father.

I think we're agreeing she signed some hospital paperwork verifying MJ's personal information. Perhaps, in all the confusion, she's mistaking whatever she signed for the official certificate of death.

Hi Zen,

She's either mistaken because she's not the brightest bulb or she is being deliberately obtuse just to knock Dr Murray on national TV.

The Jacksons have a way of twisting and turning with most of what they say.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

:laugh::laugh:

Maybe she called the TOD in the ER, too?

:laugh: I borrowed a laugh.

[retiredcop]

I am getting very confused....I have a copy of the Death Certificate and only saw one signature....Jonathan E. Fielding MD

It was posted on thread yesterday, and because its a Pdf file, I had to download it to read it....I cant figure out how to insert it into this post tho..sorry..

A relative to sign it, might only be like a receipt of the body by family members...aka transferring to mortuary or something??..I have never heard of it..however..that is something I have absolutely no clue??

LMS

I posted the link up thread post 533.

[Cindylee]

And I think you keep overlooking the dead body that caught the attention of the police.

But, don' forget that at the beginning the LAPD was saying there was no foul play, and didn't make the house a crime scene. I remember everyone talking about the Demerol. Looking back on this forum, the first I can find about the Diprovan/ Propofol, is 7/1. When did nurse Lee first talk about it?

[Imperfect4]

How does LaToya know if there was cash in the home if she was not allowed in there when MJ was alive? Is LaToya mad that she did not get to ransack and loot the home first?

MJ was an addict. He was not forced to lay down and be fed drugs. The person who administered them is responsible for their own actions as well.

The gate to MJ's home worked both ways. So do the phones, mail and computers. If MJ wanted to visit with his Family, he could have done so.

And the ridiculous assertion it was MJ's "security" who kept the family away is yet another attempt to make sure Michael remains free and clear from any personal responsibility for the way he conducted his life. Does LaToya really believe viewers really believe her brother's security team acted without his knowledge and consent? If so, she's in a Neverland of her own making.

Several members of this family need a reality check.

[Imperfect4]

<<<She signed the death certificate because 'Dr" Murray refused to do so.
Michael had repeatedly told her he was afraid of being murdered.>>>
That statement is a falsehood so I am VERY suspect of the truthfulness of the rest of her interview. LaToya is not qualified & cannot legally sign a death certificate unless she has MD behind her name.

LaToya would tell you she was once married to Obama if it would get her a little camera time. She appears to be an inveterate liar. And not a clever one.

[daniel green]

Yes, but the term acute doesn't necessarily translate to overdose as in a dose that is not within the normal dosage range. 25 mgs is within the normal range. snipped

I went to Book Club the other night and one of the other women is an anethesiologist and I asked her and she said the same thing. That acute did not mean "too much" or "overdose" but simply that it was a recent event.

As in one dies from chronic lung disease.

Or one dies from acute reaction to an allergen.

[Unperson1984]

Copy of Death Certificate:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/07/jackson-death-certificate/

She signed as the person providing information, such as DOB, address, next of kin.

[retiredcop]

I am getting very confused....I have a copy of the Death Certificate and only saw one signature....Jonathan E. Fielding MD

It was posted on thread yesterday, and because its a Pdf file, I had to download it to read it....I cant figure out how to insert it into this post tho..sorry..

A relative to sign it, might only be like a receipt of the body by family members...aka transferring to mortuary or something??..I have never heard of it..however..that is something I have absolutely no clue??

LMS

Dr. Fielding is the Director of Health Services and Register. That's why he signed it. He no doubt signs all death certificates.

in my opinion

[Emerald]

That sounds like a conspiracy between 20/20 and dish tv.

LOL.

My old dvr broke, so DTV sent a new one. It's HD, but I don't have HDTV. They are sending a tech tomorrow. I can tune to everything except local channels.

In the meantime, I missed the LaToya interview. Maybe they will replay it on WE TV? I don't believe for a single second LaToya would do an interview for free.

The coroner needs a family member signature to release the body for burial, doesn't he? I don't understand the need at the hospital. Jehovah's Witness do not believe in blood transfusion and organ transplantation among other things. Maybe it was a signature to allow the medical procedures performed in the ER?

[daniel green]

It's not a difficult concept to grasp -- at least for me. He was underfed and over medicated for decades. He would be in a weakened physical condition on a good day, never mind on days when he rehearsed for his tour. He was 50. The human body can only handle so much stress and abuse. Especially the heart.

And he was dehydrated on top of all of it.

[daniel green]

[COLOR="Blue"] snipped
She signed the death certificate because 'Dr" Murray refused to do so.
]

Well what a silly lie that is. She signed it for the family, not as a doc. She was the one who gave them the information about her brother--address, d/o/b, etc.

Sheesh.:rolleyes:

[retiredcop]

I went to Book Club the other night and one of the other women is an anethesiologist and I asked her and she said the same thing. That acute did not mean "too much" or "overdose" but simply that it was a recent event.

As in one dies from chronic lung disease.

Or one dies from acute reaction to an allergen.

Hi Ms Green, good you're back.

I was surprised to hear what acute means. Maybe that is why they haven't brought charges yet.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

How does LaToya know if there was cash in the home if she was not allowed in there when MJ was alive? Is LaToya mad that she did not get to ransack and loot the home first?

MJ was an addict. He was not forced to lay down and be fed drugs. The person who administered them is responsible for their own actions as well.

The gate to MJ's home worked both ways. So do the phones, mail and computers. If MJ wanted to visit with his Family, he could have done so.

Isn't all of that the truth. And that rented house was ransacked alright, by LT and Mrs J who took even the rented furniture and the hard-drives.

[daniel green]

Hi Ms Green, good you're back.

I was surprised to hear what acute means. Maybe that is why they haven't brought charges yet.

in my opinion

I don't know why that did not process for me, either. I mean, I know what an acute attack of appendicitis is, for instance. But it did not register until I talked to that anesthesiologist the other day for a bit while we were having refreshments and she said "oh acute doesn't mean overdose--it means fast onset." :blushing:

[retiredcop]

Acute is the opposite of chronic, which means long duration or recurrent. For instance chronic drug abuse v. acute intoxication.

I don't see how the word "acute" is of any benefit to Murray. Its still a homicide.

Well, for one, there was no mention of an overdose by the coroner. How was Dr Murray suppose to know that giving Jackson the sameo sameo was going to result in his death this time???

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

He's a doctor. Thats why doctors have to go to med school... to learn these type of things. I haven't heard any other doctor say anything but propofol is not intended for home use, and must be accompanied by proper equipment and supervision.

That's not criminal. That would be a tort.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I believe the coroner amended the death certificate to include " at the hands of another" the day after this story first came out. Given all the other drugs injected into Michael, I seriously doubt he could manipulate any machine. I have doubts that he was even conscience when the propofol was administered.

You're talking about two different things. The Death Certificate and the Autopsy. There have been no amendments to the death certificate to my knowledge. Do you have a link to a new death certificate?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I happen to agree with you..With the boatload of drug cocktail, there is no way MJ could even sit up let alone manipulate an IV drip...I would also like to add, that the versed administered has a rather long half-life, as does the valium....so if MJ could open his eyes, and talk..which I doubt, he could no way get up, and maniuplate a drug pump, or even open up a clamp...it takes dexterity to manipulate such things, not to mention the cognitive knowhow...

Am I mistaken..I thought I read somewhere that it was termed as a "Lethal Dose"..originally...however on Death Certificate didnt use that term...Iam getting more and more confused...

BTW..I think the TOD..when it does come out will be the tipping point for bringing charges....

LMS

Lynda,

I think you are overlooking Jackson's tolerance build up after all the years he was an addict. Not only could he probably sit up after a "boatload" of drugs, he was probably antsy not falling to sleep and I'm betting could dance across the room. I don't think messing with his IV is out of the realm of possibility.

It all goes back to the tox report we don't have as to the levels of the drugs in his system as compared to what the doctor said he gave him.

It would still be ruled a homicide, but that would be because the administration at the hands of another of Diprivan pushed him over the edge, which is odd because it was only 25mg.

I believe Murray only gave him 25 mg of Diprivan because of the other drugs in his system. Jackson would need less Diprivan to put him to sleep.

I think Jackson was more than frustrated at the doctor trying to ween him off Diprivan in the first place. He went along with it because the doctor was refusing to keep giving him high dosages of Diprivan.

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

Good to see you, Imperfect4.

In one context, we're told that Michael's family was not allowed access to him. This relieves Michael's family of any responsibility of knowledge of his condition and perpetuates the "shadowy entourage" conspiracy theory.

Then in the context of caring for MJ's children, it's been said that the family has had a close relationship with them:

http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/08/77186/index.html

//snip//
"I have had a close family relationship with these grandchildren since their birth. I do visit the family residence from time to time and will continue to do so, however I will not be involving in raising the children," writes Jackson, who lives in Las Vegas.
//snip//

Which is it?

imo

Hi Zenyatta! :seeya:

Exactly. The family is trying to have it both ways (or several). They weren't able to help Michael -- either as a child under the influence of his father's abuse, or as an adult under the influence of the substances he abused -- but now these same people are the obvious and best choice to parent his children into adulthood. Huh?

[warhorse46]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/mj-killed-himself-by-mistake-with-drug-overdose-claims-personal-doc_100240133.html

Same site for this link..~~titled~~

MJ killed himself by mistake with drug overdose, claims personal doc

snippet~~

He will purportedly claim that Jackson later re-set the machine to increase the dosage that sent him into a cardiac arrest

IF this underlined fact is true....then apparantly there was a pump attached to that IV pole...

LMS:blink:


Then the attending Dr Murray would have had to give Michael the lock out code to access the machine to change the machine settings. A patient cannot just press buttons & do that, the correct code must be entered before the settings can be changed.

[Imperfect4]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/mj-killed-himself-by-mistake-with-drug-overdose-claims-personal-doc_100240133.html

Same site for this link..~~titled~~

MJ killed himself by mistake with drug overdose, claims personal doc

snippet~~

He will purportedly claim that Jackson later re-set the machine to increase the dosage that sent him into a cardiac arrest

IF this underlined fact is true....then apparantly there was a pump attached to that IV pole...

LMS:blink:

Forensics testing of the machine could be interesting ...

[daniel green]

Hi Zenyatta! :seeya:

Exactly. The family is trying to have it both ways (or several). They weren't able to help Michael -- either as a child under the influence of his father's abuse, or as an adult under the influence of the substances he abused -- but now these same people are the obvious and best choice to parent his children into adulthood. Huh?

Another absolute truth.

[Imperfect4]

I happen to agree with you..With the boatload of drug cocktail, there is no way MJ could even sit up let alone manipulate an IV drip...I would also like to add, that the versed administered has a rather long half-life, as does the valium....so if MJ could open his eyes, and talk..which I doubt, he could no way get up, and maniuplate a drug pump, or even open up a clamp...it takes dexterity to manipulate such things, not to mention the cognitive knowhow...

Am I mistaken..I thought I read somewhere that it was termed as a "Lethal Dose"..originally...however on Death Certificate didnt use that term...Iam getting more and more confused...

BTW..I think the TOD..when it does come out will be the tipping point for bringing charges....

LMS

To my knowledge, addicts are able to tolerate dosages and combinations of the substances they normally abuse far, far beyond what you or I would be able to tolerate.

So I'm not sure anyone can conclude beyond a doubt what would have rendered MJ unconscious and/or unable to sit up, move around, fool with the IV pump, etc.

[Imperfect4]

But the coroner did conclude that MJ did not self administer the drugs. This is the same credible coroner that was praised by IS posters in another high profile murder case. Are his findings only credible as long as the deceased is well liked?

What? :blink:

I'm not addressing anything having to do with the coroner's credibility and I have no idea what other case you're referring to.

My post was in response to speculation that MJ was unconscious due to the drugs Murray has admitted administering. We don't know whether he was or wasn't, because we don't know his tolerance level for the drugs he was given. Substance abusers have a higher tolerance than normal for the drugs they abuse -- often a much higher tolerance. No one but Murray can say for a fact whether MJ was or wasn't conscious, and at present, Murray seems to be saying he was conscious throughout the night and into the morning, thus the continued administering of drugs, including, finally, the propofol.

[Imperfect4]

Evidently the judge thought it would be in the best interests of the children to remain with family members, as opposed to foster care.

Your point?

[retiredcop]

I haven't been able to find a full copy of MJ's Certificate of Death online. Just the partial one posted on TMZ.

I started to post a link to a legible picture of California Certificate of Death, so others could see the exact format and what is included on the certificate and why Latoya couldn't have legitimately signed it. But I couldn't find a blank one and realized that the one I started to post belonged to someone and included addresses. I think that's against TOS to post an address, so....


Is this what you're looking for? It is two pages and amended. How many pages are to the one you have?

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/01/jacksons-death-certificate-injection-by-another/

[Emerald]

However we do know that drugs given in lethal dosage will typically render the person unconscience.
:blink:

:lol:

One of those days. Too bad it had to be said.

[retiredcop]

Copy of death certificate. LaToya apparently signed as "informant" and next of kin. There is no Dr signature on it -- this is an incomplete death certificate obtained by TMZ. Dr. Fielding is just declaring that the death certificate was registered and valid as the Director of Health Services and Registrar. I would presume the completed death certificate with cause of death would have ME signature.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0707_mj_deceased_wm.pdf

I just posted the link to the amended death certificate which has two pages.

[retiredcop]

Thank you, RC. However, my dialup connection is acting up and won't let me download the docs.

Is the entire Death Certificate itself readable when downloaded? Thanks in advance!

Yes, both pages are readable. I just found out I can't copy and paste it for you.

[Imperfect4]

However we do know that drugs given in lethal dosage will typically render the person unconscience.
:blink:

Propofol was the last drug given, IIRC. You were speculating MJ was unconscious due to the "cocktail" leading up to the propofol. We don't know that for a fact. Only Murray does, and he's claiming the opposite.

If you'd prefer to remain singularly focused on the propofol intoxication, perhaps you shouldn't venture beyond your fence into unfamiliar territory under discussion. You look a bit silly scrambling back over that fence so often. lol

[Imperfect4]

:lol:

One of those days. Too bad it had to be said.

It doesn't have to be said. Some posters apparently enjoy repeating themselves.

[retiredcop]

My bold, where did you read or hear this???

I have seen nowhere that the Coroner concluded tha MJ did not self administer the drugs. One can surmise that since the Coroner determined the death as a Homicide that it was not MJ that self administered the drugs. However, since the Coroner was not in the room at the time MJ was injected, not he nor anyone save for DR. Murray could possibly know how those drugs got into MJ's system.

To lay to rest the issue of an overdose the official Coroners report said; "The Los Angeles County Coroner has determined that Michael Jackson died of acute propofol intoxication, with a handful of other drugs also contributing to the singer's death.
The coroner's office officially ruled the death a homicide."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,544081,00.html

If acute propofol intoxication doesn't mean an overdose I don't know what does. Some here don't seem to undestand this.

Lynda, what say you???

We have been discussing "acute" does not mean overdose. The coroner did not say anything about overdose. Acute means sudden onset.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Thank you, RC. Is it readable enough that one can see in the space next to where LaToya's name is typed, that it asks for "Informant's Mailing Address (Street and number or rural route number, city or town, state, ZIP)"?

Thanks for trying the copy and paste.

Living out in the sticks has its advantages, but reliable high speed internet access isn't one of them :angry:

Oh no, not that readable. LOL The front page is the same. It is just lodgical that's what it would say.

[Unperson1984]

I happen to agree with you..With the boatload of drug cocktail, there is no way MJ could even sit up let alone manipulate an IV drip...I would also like to add, that the versed administered has a rather long half-life, as does the valium....so if MJ could open his eyes, and talk..which I doubt, he could no way get up, and maniuplate a drug pump, or even open up a clamp...it takes dexterity to manipulate such things, not to mention the cognitive knowhow...

Am I mistaken..I thought I read somewhere that it was termed as a "Lethal Dose"..originally...however on Death Certificate didnt use that term...Iam getting more and more confused...

BTW..I think the TOD..when it does come out will be the tipping point for bringing charges....

LMS

It's all quite confusing, because we don't have the actual documents.

I keep coming back to two problems.

First, they have issued a carefully word release about what drugs were found in his system, but the wording doesn't preclude other drugs being in his system. Basically the ME's press release simply confirmed what Murray had already told LE.

My second problem is that apparently LE is not even close to charging Murray. If what has been released in both the warrant request and the ME's press release is true, what's the hold up? I think there is a piece of critical information that we don't know. It could be a self administered medication or MJ’s fingerprint on an IV pump, but must there must be some reason they aren’t close to charging Murray.

IMO

[retiredcop]

Oh really, sorry rc, no cigar.

Acutehttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-kyoot] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–adjective 1.sharp or severe in effect; intense:

Sudden onset??? I don't think so.

Sudden onset is closer to sharp or severe in effect; intense than overdose.:biggrin:

my opinion of course

[Imperfect4]

.. was to give consideration to the alternative.

As a matter of fact, there are many better alternatives to handing the children over to the Jackson family.

But that would require putting the best interests of the children ahead of Michael's poor judgment as evidenced by his *willing* of the children to his mother, and by association, to the rest of the family he chose to distance himself from for most of his life.

I have no doubt the welfare of the children will continue to come in in last place behind the wishes of the adult Jacksons.

[retiredcop]

Oh really, sorry rc, no cigar.

Acutehttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-kyoot] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–adjective 1.sharp or severe in effect; intense:

Sudden onset??? I don't think so.

Also: acute (of disease) brief and severe (opposed to chronic ).

The coroner said nothing about overdose.

my opinion

[Unperson1984]

It took almost two years for charges to be brought in ANS case. While I understand the circumstances are different; the DEA was just brought into assist in investigation of overprescription of drugs. I would think that everything will be tied together and all charged at the same time. I honestly do not believe this investigation is over yet. I would also think that somewhere prior to his death another doctor administered anasthesia without sound medical reason that MJ got hooked on since MJ knew all about it prior to Dr Murray JMO

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/13/entertainment/main4863392.shtml

A doctor who got MJ hooked could not be criminally held responsible for homicide in 2009. The only person who could be held criminally responsible for homicide is Murray.

[impartial]

A doctor who got MJ hooked could not be criminally held responsible for homicide in 2009. The only person who could be held criminally responsible for homicide is Murray.


Palzgraf doesn't apply in criminal cases. :wink:

[impartial]

A doctor who got MJ hooked could not be criminally held responsible for homicide in 2009. The only person who could be held criminally responsible for homicide is Murray.



Although I think it's an incredibly difficult criminal case against Murray, what do you think about Adams being in the mix if Murray indicates that Adams instructed him on the dose and administration of diprivan.

[Unperson1984]

Although I think it's an incredibly difficult criminal case against Murray, what do you think about Adams being in the mix if Murray indicates that Adams instructed him on the dose and administration of diprivan.

I don't see any impact on a criminal case from the State's perspective. No doubt Murray would try to raise the fact as part of his defense.

Don't you find it odd that the ME issued a press release with drugs found in MJ's body, yet withheld the actual tox report?

[impartial]

I don't see any impact on a criminal case from the State's perspective. No doubt Murray would try to raise the fact as part of his defense.

Don't you find it odd that the ME issued a press release with drugs found in MJ's body, yet withheld the actual tox report?


Yes. Why issue a release indicating the cause of death and list the drugs that caused/contributed to the death and not release the foundational documents that support the official press release.

Are they trying to apply pressure to Murray or is there something in there that doesn't support a criminal charge against Murray. They have Murray's statement about what he gave MJ, and drugs listed in the press release are consistent with his statement.

Acute intoxication ... was the diprivan pushed instead of hung? We don't know how much of the 25mgs was dripping at what rate ... if a slow drip, one would not expect an acute intoxication given his history of tolerance to higher doses.

Ultimately, it may just be that something else was in his system that also contributed to the synergy of the combination, and they don't have any documentation that links Murray to the something else (drugs, alcohol,).

:confused:

[Imperfect4]

It really isn't a matter of focusing on propofol intoxication. I believe my focus is well placed in that, it has been determined to a reasonable scientific and medical certainty that MJ died not by accident, not by suicide, but at the hands of another, and the taking of another human life, without legal justification is something that shouldn't be ignored based soley on your distain for the victim. Our justice sytems strives or should strive to rise above that and justice should be administered with equality, no matter who you are, how much money you have, the color of your skin, your religious preference, or your popularity or lack thereof among the masses.

If you consider this philosophy silly, then so be it. I'd rather be silly than ashamed of discriminatory ideaology.

Thanks for the sermon.

You assume I have disdain for the victim. You are wrong. The fact I'm not posting page-long excerpts from links singing MJ's praises, or page-long posts with his song lyrics does not mean I disdain the man. Your very close identification with MJ appears to convince you posters who do not 100% subscribe to your opinions and theories about him hold him in disdain. You are simply wrong.

You might consider being a bit more tolerant and open minded of those here who expected MJ to take some personal responsibility for his own behavior, as well as those who don't at the moment believe Conrad Murray is Satan with a medical degree.

[Imperfect4]

You know that Lana Clarkson could have been more responsible in her choice to go to the home of a stranger in the middle of the night, but that didn't make P. Spector any less culpable. Yes, Michael Jackson was probably an addict, and I suspect that he suffered a great deal, as any addict would, but being an addict didn't force Murray into making poor choices, and doesnt take away his responsibilty for his own behavior. And I try real hard to express my differing opinion with respect and courtesy, rather than through attack and insult. And thank you for correcting my spelling error.

Bolded to address. You're most welcome.

[Cindylee]

You are assuming that there was an IV pump. There has been no documentation so far released that there was an IV pump in that bedroom. Only an IV stand and an IV in his arm whether it was a needle in a vein or an IV catheter when found. What was on the stand is not known, whether it was a bag of dextrose or an IV pump to administer a preset amount of Propofol. I am of the opinion that there was no IV pump since it would have been mentioned and possibily the setting thereon. It is my opinion as I said earlier that MJ had an inplace IV in his arm with a syringe of propofol that held 50 to 100 cc's attached that was being pushed in small quantities i.e. cc's maybe 2 to 4 at intervals. Without the benefit of a pump this would be the way it is done. This may be Greek to some who have no medical experience or knowledge and it is not my intention to insult anyones knowledge or experience here. If you do not understand this post you are welcome to PM myself or Lyndawitha"y if she is so inclined to. Lyn, I hope you don't mind.

ETA, It was said that MJ had three injection marks in his neck. That at one time could have been for a pic line which is a longer usage IV method for extended periods of IV fluids as is an IV Catheter which however must be changed to a different vein in two or three days or less depending on the viability of the vein and the health of the patient.

I don't think there was a pump there either. I don't think that Dr. Murray would have a clue how to use the pump.

[Cindylee]

Did she actually pull that off with a straight face?

I couldn't even read your post without laughing out loud!

I missed it last night, and am watching it now. I will let you know. :wink:

[Cindylee]

La Toya Still Thinks Michael Was Murdered

Posted Sep 12th 2009 10:50AM by TMZ Staff

The coroner says the death of Michael Jackson was a homicide, but La Toya Jackson is still calling it murder.

La Toya Jackson

La Toya was on "20/20" last night with Barbara Walters, where she once again asserted that Michael was murdered by people who would benefit financially from his death, but she doesn't know exactly who.

Dr. Conrad Murray, who administered the drug that resulted in Jackson's death, is the only person the LAPD is focusing on in their investigation.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0QwVcZk4H

[Cindylee]

Given what murry knew about CPR....I think you are onto something..
it seems from the timeline..he spent more time avoiding 911 than really trying to resuscitate MJ...course he did lack the equipement to even do that..and most resucitations require more than one person...and I rather doubt the staff there had one clue either...

LMS:laugh:

That is another good point about the pump.....I really can't believe he had a pump, if as you say he didn't have the proper resuscitation equipment on hand. We really aren't sure what he had, but a pump seems far fetched. IV drip I would think.

[Cindylee]

Equipment Murray should have had..was a cardiac monitor...capable of defibrillation..O2 Sat monitor...Intubation equipment, Ambu Bag..none of which was there prior to EMT's being there..So given the parameters for this treatment of propofol...He was lacking...and given his behaviors finding MJ not breathing leaves me to just wonder..what he was trying to do????..I would just love this to go to court..I would even take days off to watch this..IF it goes to court (which I think it will) but suffice to say..I rather doubt he will be getting any "GIG" like this again..and his License..should be thrown out the window at this stage...I wonder how he is making ends meet at this point?..and wonder if his girlfriend is standing by his side..you know the one..who he had stationed near by..sorry.dont have a link to that point..so take it as IIRC..

LMS

Yep. Dr. M is in big trouble. I see a manslaughter charge, but I do think there is no question that his license is in the trash. I think he is going to have a really hard time finding any work. He is pretty much ruined already.

[who_is_it]

La Toya Still Thinks Michael Was Murdered

Posted Sep 12th 2009 10:50AM by TMZ Staff

The coroner says the death of Michael Jackson was a homicide, but La Toya Jackson is still calling it murder.

La Toya Jackson

La Toya was on "20/20" last night with Barbara Walters, where she once again asserted that Michael was murdered by people who would benefit financially from his death, but she doesn't know exactly who.

Dr. Conrad Murray, who administered the drug that resulted in Jackson's death, is the only person the LAPD is focusing on in their investigation.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0QwVcZk4H

Imo LaToya should keep her mouth shut.

TMZ confuses the terminology. As far as I remember we discussed here on the board that "homicide" is the superordinate term for "murder" (intentional) and "manslaughter" (accidental).

[who_is_it]

You know..there are so many sources out there declaring reliable sources..I am not sure which one to believe or disregard...however, the Drug cocktail..the final dose of propofol, the delay of calling 911 and the COD being stated by the Coroner as a Lethal Dose by Hands of another says it for me...I do believe I have been saying something similar from the date of finding out about the use of Propofol..and understanding that drug, and the necessary equipment lacking, and of course Murray rediculous attempts of sandwich pressing MJ's chest as compressions..rang that proverbial bell in my head...

The actal numbers of each drug level is no never mind at this point..as it is obvious MJ died as a result of this IV treatment....and the attending physician was incapable to resuscitating his patient...

LMS

Therefore I will wait till it goes to trial. Then there will be grand jury transcripts. Like during the trial in 2005 the PRIMARY sources -- back then the court transcripts -- are always the most reliable.

[retiredcop]

Therefore I will wait till it goes to trial. Then there will be grand jury transcripts. Like during the trial in 2005 the PRIMARY sources -- back then the court transcripts -- are always the most reliable.

The trouble being there has to be a trial first.:shrug:

No one has even been arrested yet.

in my opinion

[who_is_it]

The trouble being there has to be a trial first.:shrug:

No one has even been arrested yet.

in my opinion

Right. Hope we won't have to wait too long....

[warhorse46]

My bold, where did you read or hear this???

I have seen nowhere that the Coroner concluded tha MJ did not self administer the drugs. One can surmise that since the Coroner determined the death as a Homicide that it was not MJ that self administered the drugs. However, since the Coroner was not in the room at the time MJ was injected, not he nor anyone save for DR. Murray could possibly know how those drugs got into MJ's system.

To lay to rest the issue of an overdose the official Coroners report said; "The Los Angeles County Coroner has determined that Michael Jackson died of acute propofol intoxication, with a handful of other drugs also contributing to the singer's death.
The coroner's office officially ruled the death a homicide."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,544081,00.html

If acute propofol intoxication doesn't mean an overdose I don't know what does. Some here don't seem to undestand this.

Lynda, what say you???


No, acute propofol intoxication is not the same thing as an overdose. It means that the onset was fast. One can slowly overdose over a long period of time & it can still result in death. Drugs stay in the body for varying amounts of time. It is called half life. And they can build over time to a toxic level. But the body will show evidence of this build up. Acute is simply a medical term for the word fast.

[warhorse46]

Oh really, sorry rc, no cigar.

Acutehttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-kyoot] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–adjective 1.sharp or severe in effect; intense:

Sudden onset??? I don't think so.


Your links do not work but I suspect they are not to medical dictionaries. In the medical field acute means rapid onset, I know because I am a retired Nurse Specialist.

Medical Dictionary..acute
Pronunciation (ă-kyūt′)
1.Referring to a health effect, usually of rapid onset, brief, not prolonged; sometimes loosely used to mean severe.
2.Referring to exposure, brief, intense, short-term; sometimes specifically referring to brief exposure of high intensity.
http://dictionary.webmd.com/terms/acute

[warhorse46]

You are assuming that there was an IV pump. There has been no documentation so far released that there was an IV pump in that bedroom. Only an IV stand and an IV in his arm whether it was a needle in a vein or an IV catheter when found. What was on the stand is not known, whether it was a bag of dextrose or an IV pump to administer a preset amount of Propofol. I am of the opinion that there was no IV pump since it would have been mentioned and possibily the setting thereon. It is my opinion as I said earlier that MJ had an inplace IV in his arm with a syringe of propofol that held 50 to 100 cc's attached that was being pushed in small quantities i.e. cc's maybe 2 to 4 at intervals. Without the benefit of a pump this would be the way it is done. This may be Greek to some who have no medical experience or knowledge and it is not my intention to insult anyones knowledge or experience here. If you do not understand this post you are welcome to PM myself or Lyndawitha"y if she is so inclined to. Lyn, I hope you don't mind.

ETA, It was said that MJ had three injection marks in his neck. That at one time could have been for a pic line which is a longer usage IV method for extended periods of IV fluids as is an IV Catheter which however must be changed to a different vein in two or three days or less depending on the viability of the vein and the health of the patient.



They are PICC lines (I am PICC line certified) & they are not inserted in the neck veins. They are inserted in the upper extremity veins, usually the Brachial vein, Basilic vein or the Median Cubital vein, then threaded up to the subclavian vein. Also the puncture wound from a PICC line insertion is noticably larger than an injection punture wound. Any medical person would be able to distinguish the difference @ a glance.

http://www.ceufast.com/courses/viewcourse.asp?id=153#Catheter_Placement


http://www.imaginghss.org/patient-information/piccs.htm#p5

http://anatowiki.wetpaint.com/page/Arteries+and+veins

http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus574.html

[warhorse46]

I guess you missed my earlier link Eagleeye...I posted this link..from a source who suggested that the Murray team are claiming MJ altered the pump settings..Of course I have no idea if it is true..but there ya go~~

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/mj-killed-himself-by-mistake-with-drug-overdose-claims-personal-doc_100240133.html

MJ killed himself by mistake with drug overdose, claims personal doc


Snippet~~~

Murray, who is at the centre of a manslaughter probe, previously confessed hooking up the insomniac star to a drip with the drug to help him sleep, reports the News of the World.

The medic alleged he administered just 25 milligrams of Propofol into the bloodstreamof the singer.

He will purportedly claim that Jackson later re-set the machine to increase the dosage that sent him into a cardiac arrest

You see what I am saying?....this is actually first time there has even been amention of any pump on the scene???

LMS:ohmy:



If that is true then Dr. Murray would have had to give Jackson the lock out code to access the pump to change the settings. So either way Dr. Murray is the responsible person IMO.

[who_is_it]

"(...)as the first trailer for one of the most hotly-anticipated films of the year: "Michael Jackson's This Is It," the movie that documents the construction of what would have been Michael Jackson's final series of performances at London's O2 Arena. The film, which opens on October 28 and will run for a limited two-week engagement, will include some of Michael Jackson's last performances recorded on film, and the first trailer will premiere during Sunday night's MTV Video Music Awards."

http://newsroom.mtv.com/2009/09/12/michael-jackson-this-is-it-trailer-teaser/

[warhorse46]

Ok, let me put it this way. If I drink a half gallon of Vodka tonight and die. The coroner states that I died of Acute Alcohol Intoxication. Did I or did I not overdose on alcohol? And with that I don't wish to discuse this subject any further. Have a good evening all. :)



No matter how you word it, acute simply means rapid onset in the medical world. Nothing more nothing less. It does not mean overdose.

[warhorse46]

I do stand corrected, however when I read about the three puncture wounds in his neck, I thought that he may have had a CVC (central venous catheter) which is inserted into the large vein in the neck (internal jugular vein), chest (subclavian vein) or groin (femoral vein). Sorry for my confusion, it has been some years since I practiced. You are certainly right the insertion point of a PICC line is noticeably larger. and the skin is numbed, using a special anaesthetic cream at the point of insertion and even sometimes with a local anesthetic such as lidocaine.


Exactly correct, I still have several scars from CVC line insertions in me. I had not read about the 3 puncture wounds on his neck, that is interesting. I sure wish we had the autopsy report to read but I guess we will have to be patient & wait to see if there is a trial before that happens.

[warhorse46]

No, it does not mean overdose but I do think the word lends itself to not only rapid onset but a "life threatening" situation. Acute can be used with any medical/surgical problem. I don't think Dr Murray will be arrested and charged cause I don't think the DA can prove that Murray and only Murray could have caused the death of Jackson. With his history, I doubt that they can prove that Jackson did not overdose himself. Warhorse, its hard for me to believe that a 110lb person took all that stuff for some time period. My opinion only.



I think Dr. Murray could be charged with manslaughter because of his behavior prior & post mortem. He did not have the recommended resuscitation equipment available when a patient is under Dipropvan, he left the room after its administration before the patient was fully awake, he delayed calling 911, just to name a few.

[daniel green]

Buddy!!!!!:wub::wub::wub:

Hey, friend! Good to see you!

[daniel green]

Also: acute (of disease) brief and severe (opposed to chronic ).

The coroner said nothing about overdose.

my opinion

Acute, medically, does not indicate severity. Only sudden in onsetl.

Acute conditions are severe and sudden in onset. This could describe anything from a broken bone to an asthma attack. A chronic condition, by contrast is a long-developing syndrome, such as osteoporosis or asthma. Note that osteoporosis, a chronic condition, may cause a broken bone, an acute condition. An acute asthma attack occurs in the midst of the chronic disease of asthma. Acute conditions, such as a first asthma attack, may lead to a chronic syndrome if untreated.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/18126.htm

[daniel green]

snipped

ETA, It was said that MJ had three injection marks in his neck. That at one time could have been for a pic line which is a longer usage IV method for extended periods of IV fluids as is an IV Catheter which however must be changed to a different vein in two or three days or less depending on the viability of the vein and the health of the patient.

No way.

MJ had injection marks. Not cut downs for a pic line.

[daniel green]

No, acute propofol intoxication is not the same thing as an overdose. It means that the onset was fast. One can slowly overdose over a long period of time & it can still result in death. Drugs stay in the body for varying amounts of time. It is called half life. And they can build over time to a toxic level. But the body will show evidence of this build up. Acute is simply a medical term for the word fast.

Thank you, WH!

[daniel green]

They are PICC lines (I am PICC line certified) & they are not inserted in the neck veins. They are inserted in the upper extremity veins, usually the Brachial vein, Basilic vein or the Median Cubital vein, then threaded up to the subclavian vein. Also the puncture wound from a PICC line insertion is noticably larger than an injection punture wound. Any medical person would be able to distinguish the difference @ a glance.

snipped

Thank you! Thank you!

So clear and concise. One knows, reading your posts, that you are, in fact, experienced in this and have vast nursing experience.

[daniel green]

Exactly correct, I still have several scars from CVC line insertions in me. I had not read about the 3 puncture wounds on his neck, that is interesting. I sure wish we had the autopsy report to read but I guess we will have to be patient & wait to see if there is a trial before that happens.

There has been nothing about three puncture wounds on the neck, WH. There have been reports that MJ had injection marks all over his body, there are some reports saying he had them on his feet, hands, and even his neck.

[who_is_it]

No, it does not mean overdose but I do think the word lends itself to not only rapid onset but a "life threatening" situation. Acute can be used with any medical/surgical problem. I don't think Dr Murray will be arrested and charged cause I don't think the DA can prove that Murray and only Murray could have caused the death of Jackson. With his history, I doubt that they can prove that Jackson did not overdose himself. Warhorse, its hard for me to believe that a 110lb person took all that stuff for some time period. My opinion only.

It's always hard to believe how much alcohol or drugs an addict's body still could "handle" ... until the addict finally dies. Don't get me wrong on that one, I've loved Michael Jackson.

[who_is_it]

By giving him enough downers to choke a horse and then adding diprivan on top of it? No, I think what was in his mind was to give MJ whatever he wanted and collect the big bucks.

For me it's hard to imagine what was on his mind. Even if Michael Jackson hadn't died and just a "drug accident" had led to hospital treatment he would have been in trouble (media!) and under investigation. Imo it's illogical how someone could take up the risk -- specially as he is a doctor.

[Unperson1984]

Does this sound eerily familiar with Michael Jackson. The only thing missing here is the Propofol. In any event in Heath Ledger's case he died of an overdose of drugs by any reasonable explaination. I suggest that we are talking symantics here. Now I promise I will rest my case on this issue.

"The NYC medical examiner has finished the toxicology report following the death of Heath Ledger, and has just ruled that the actor's death was caused by "acute intoxication" by the combined effects of oxycodone, hydrocodone, diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam, and doxylamine."

The NYPD found five medications in Ledger's apartment after his death, including anti-anxiety medications alprazolam (Xanax), diazepam (Valium) and Lorazepam (Ativan). The sleeping medication zopiclone (Imovane) and the sedative temazepam (Restoril) -- which is used by people with "debilitating insomnia" -- were also found. Doxylamine is an antihistamine used in the short-term treatment of insomnia"

http://www.tmz.com/2008/02/06/ledgers-death-ruled-acute-intoxication/

Reading that list makes me wonder how many other celebrities are using this recipe.

I hope Murray is held criminally responsible for his actions, I’m just not sure California’s laws are adequate to do so.

[daniel green]

But in an exclusive interview with RadarOnline.com, Dr. Murray's rep Miranda Sevcik said LaToya's version of events is entirely wrong. "Her claims are not consistent with Dr. Murray's version of events," Sevcik said. "LaToya was not in the house during the time she claims Prince was called into Jackson's bedroom. "Our version of events has not changed. Prince was never called into the bedroom and Dr. Murray found Micheal Jackson not breathing with a weak pulse. Mr. Jackson was not declared dead until he was in the hospital."

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/09/exclusive-latoya-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-war-words

[daniel green]

Los Angeles County sheriff's investigators have concluded a nearly two-month inquiry into whether county coroner's employees illegally leaked or sold private information from Michael Jackson's death investigation, a sheriff's spokesman announced Friday. After interviewing coroner's staff and consulting with the district attorney's office, investigators from the sheriff's internal criminal investigations bureau determined that no criminal violations occurred, according to sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson-coroner12-2009sep12,0,549744.story

[Unperson1984]

Did Heath Ledger overdose himself or did someone else inject him? When John Belushi died, a california court succeeded in getting a conviction of the woman that injected his lethal dose. But when Carrol O Conner son's died, Mr. O conner wanted the drug dealer charged with the murder of his son, by providing the drugs his son od'd on, and that wasn't going to happen and didnt happen. California convicts people on some pretty flimsy evidence all the time.

True, but the woman who injected Belushi wasn't a licensed physician injecting legal medications.

[retiredcop]

No nutty cop would arrest me for that. I still have my badge from when I was a Deputy Sheriff years ago. I still have an honorary commission. I should have arrested him for breathing public air. :laugh:

:laugh::rolleyes: As if you have arrest powers now or for that matter ever did. You have to be employed by an agency to have arrest powers. Shouldn't you take your personal posts to pms??? You are O/T.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Given what murry knew about CPR....I think you are onto something..
it seems from the timeline..he spent more time avoiding 911 than really trying to resuscitate MJ...course he did lack the equipement to even do that..and most resucitations require more than one person...and I rather doubt the staff there had one clue either...

LMS:laugh:

As far as to how Dr Murray gave CPR, I don't see anything wrong with it.

I say this because I watched an episode of "I Survived" where a woman flatlined after giving birth because of amniotic fluid embolism. Her doctor, who was on the show, said she jumped up on her bed, straddled her, and gave her CPR right there on the bed in the recovery room. The woman was flatlined for 4 and 1/2 minuets and they got her back. The doctor did this from giving CPR on the bed with the nurse using an ambu bag to ventilate her.

Michael Jackson was frail and Dr Murray gave him CPR by placing one hand under his back and pumping with the other.

I have friends that work in a very well known level I trauma room who said they see nothing wrong with the way Dr Murray gave the heart pumps.

Also it is unknown what medical equipment was in that room. Everything is speculation in that regard especially saying there was no equipment there.

It has been stated by Dr Murray's lawyer, the timeline is off from what is in that search warrant. Since that is the only place where it is reported Mr Jackson was found at 11:00 am not breathing, it is not known how true that is.

As far as him calling Prince into the room, that is being denied also. This board is full of speculation.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

No, acute propofol intoxication is not the same thing as an overdose. It means that the onset was fast. One can slowly overdose over a long period of time & it can still result in death. Drugs stay in the body for varying amounts of time. It is called half life. And they can build over time to a toxic level. But the body will show evidence of this build up. Acute is simply a medical term for the word fast.

Thank you warhorse, there are some that claim medical experience here I have my doubts on.

in my opinion

[warhorse46]

There has been nothing about three puncture wounds on the neck, WH. There have been reports that MJ had injection marks all over his body, there are some reports saying he had them on his feet, hands, and even his neck.



I had not read about puncture wounds on Michael's body but I would not doubt the truthfulness of said report in light of his long history of drug addiction.

[retiredcop]

I think Dr. Murray could be charged with manslaughter because of his behavior prior & post mortem. He did not have the recommended resuscitation equipment available when a patient is under Dipropvan, he left the room after its administration before the patient was fully awake, he delayed calling 911, just to name a few.

Hi warhorse,

Actually it has not been released as to what equipment was in that room.

I have no idea why it is being reported here there was no equipment. Even the so called picture of the room Jackson died in does not show the entire room. All that has been reported is a pole with an empty bag.

Also, Dr Murray's attorney released a statement the timeline in the search warrant is not correct.

Most search warrants are off somewhat because it only has to list probable cause.

http://houstoncriminallaw-pressroom.com/ (Affidavit Statement)

Since his lawyer was present when Dr Murray gave his statements to police, other then when he spoke to detectives at the hospital for a short time, I believe the lawyer would know what statements were given. It should be noted none of his written or video taped statements have been released.

Most of what is being posted about is speculation gleaned from an old search warrant.

in my opinion of course

[warhorse46]

For me it's hard to imagine what was on his mind. Even if Michael Jackson hadn't died and just a "drug accident" had led to hospital treatment he would have been in trouble (media!) and under investigation. Imo it's illogical how someone could take up the risk -- specially as he is a doctor.



I'm with you who on that one. It is beyond me how a Doctor could run the risk of losing his license, profession, reputation & face prison time just to make some fast big bucks. Sure shows me where their priority lies.

[warhorse46]

I have wondered something medically related, and that is if MJ was an addict who was routinely having injections, wouldnt there come a point in time that there would be no more veins left to inject, and why wasn't a port installed in him to accomodate his massive drug habit? I think thats what they call it... a port?


There are many different kinds of totally implantable venous access systems (TIVAS) or ports. There are Microports, Medi-Ports, Lifesite ports, Infus-a-ports, Passports just to name a few.

[warhorse46]

Hi warhorse,

Actually it has not been released as to what equipment was in that room.

I have no idea why it is being reported here there was no equipment. Even the so called picture of the room Jackson died in does not show the entire room. All that has been reported is a pole with an empty bag.

Also, Dr Murray's attorney released a statement the timeline in the search warrant is not correct.

Most search warrants are off somewhat because it only has to list probable cause.

http://houstoncriminallaw-pressroom.com/ (Affidavit Statement)

Since his lawyer was present when Dr Murray gave his statements to police, other then when he spoke to detectives at the hospital for a short time, I believe the lawyer would know what statements were given. It should be noted none of his written or video taped statements have been released.

Most of what is being posted about is speculation gleaned from an old search warrant.

in my opinion of course


That is true, we have little information & we are speculating.

[warhorse46]

As far as to how Dr Murray gave CPR, I don't see anything wrong with it.

I say this because I watched an episode of "I Survived" where a woman flatlined after giving birth because of amniotic fluid embolism. Her doctor, who was on the show, said she jumped up on her bed, straddled her, and gave her CPR right there on the bed in the recovery room. The woman was flatlined for 4 and 1/2 minuets and they got her back. The doctor did this from giving CPR on the bed with the nurse using an ambu bag to ventilate her.

Michael Jackson was frail and Dr Murray gave him CPR by placing one hand under his back and pumping with the other.

I have friends that work in a very well known level I trauma room who said they see nothing wrong with the way Dr Murray gave the heart pumps.

Also it is unknown what medical equipment was in that room. Everything is speculation in that regard especially saying there was no equipment there.

It has been stated by Dr Murray's lawyer, the timeline is off from what is in that search warrant. Since that is the only place where it is reported Mr Jackson was found at 11:00 am not breathing, it is not known how true that is.

As far as him calling Prince into the room, that is being denied also. This board is full of speculation.

in my opinion



The only time chest compressions should be given with only one hand is if the victim is a child or infant. A 110 lb adult, even a frail one, 2 hands should be used. And even when one hand is used the other is not under the victim, that is a very awkward position that would produce compressions without enough power to compress the heart & pump blood.

[retiredcop]

The only time chest compressions should be given with only one hand is if the victim is a child or infant. A 110 lb adult, even a frail one, 2 hands should be used. And even when one hand is used the other is not under the victim, that is a very awkward position that would produce compressions without enough power to compress the heart & pump blood.

I find it hard to second guess a highly trained doctor and cardiologist. It must have been good enough to keep Jackson going since he was continued to be worked on for over an hour by the emergency room doctors.

I don't believe he had been dead for any length of time especially from 11 am on. The emergency room doctors would have known he was too far gone to work on him.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Again I am linking the amended death certificate. The time of death is listed as 1426 which is military time for 2:26 pm.

I don't see where the coroner is questioning this time of death. If the time of death was being questioned, it would not show this as his time of death on the death certificate.

The coroner would know if he died at 11:00 am or around that time and list it. If he thought Jackson died between 11am and 2:26pm why wouldn't he list that? If there was a question about the time, why wouldn't he put unknown? This is the amended death certificate done after the autopsy.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/01/jacksons-death-certificate-injection-by-another/

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

How long to you plan to beat this same old drum you have been banging on for weeks on end when so many posters have challenged your theory based on your speculation. You can't possibly know because you WERE NOT there. My bold: What "length of time" do you believe he was dead? That comment does not make any sense. You have been told by many here that it is not unusual for the ER to try to save a patient even though there was no heartbeat or respiration's when the patient arrives. Sometimes it is done for the sake of the family to show that they did all they could. As a retiredcop, cough, (excuse me I have a cold) you should know this but refuse to acknowledge that it is a possibility.

Stop making reference to me personally. I don't really care how many posters have not agreed with me. That doesn't make it true. There are also many posters who have agreed with me. No posters were there including me. None. ERs DO NOT work on obvious corpses dead for over an hour and I don't care how you twist it. If Jackson died at 11:00am and arrived at the hospital at 1:14 pm he would have been DOA.

Remember none of the Jackson family arrived at the hospital until he was already pronounced dead. They were not working on him to impress his family members. So be it.

I will bring this up as long as it keeps being brought up Jackson stopped breathing at 11:00 am. That is my right.

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

I remember the chef saying that he summoned Prince upstairs to his already dead father, and I would imagine Prince told a similiar story. Who is to be believed? Dr, Murray or Prince and the chef?

I don't think so. It's my recollection the chef was very clear in her interview(s) Prince was never called into the bedroom where his father lay. None of the children were, per the chef.

[GentleBreeze]

Again I am linking the amended death certificate. The time of death is listed as 1426 which is military time for 2:26 pm.

I don't see where the coroner is questioning this time of death. If the time of death was being questioned, it would not show this as his time of death on the death certificate.

The coroner would know if he died at 11:00 am or around that time and list it. If he thought Jackson died between 11am and 2:26pm why wouldn't he list that? If there was a question about the time, why wouldn't he put unknown? This is the amended death certificate done after the autopsy.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/01/jacksons-death-certificate-injection-by-another/

in my opinion


I have never really understood your position that you keep trying to insistently make.

Are you say that Michael had vital signs of life from the time he was picked up by EMTs until death was finally pronounced at 2:26 pm. As if he took his last breath at 2.26 pm?:confused:

They could work on a dead man and did but if he still kept being dead with no signs of life then he was already dead when they found him. TOD is when the medical doctors finally stand down and know it is fruitless to continue their efforts anymore.

I have read countless articles where the EMTs worked on him and the ER doctors too but I have never seen one article that said there were any signs of life during all that time. Where did you read this?

Other than Murray saying when he was back at the home that MJ had a faint pulse (was that around 11?) I have seen no one else who has said he ever breathed another breath or showed any signs of life once they EMTs arrived at the Holmby mansion.

imo

[Firehead11]

I have never really understood your position that you keep trying to insistently make.

Are you say that Michael had vital signs of life from the time he was picked up by EMTs until death was finally pronounced at 2:26 pm. As if he took his last breath at 2.26 pm?:confused:

They could work on a dead man and did but if he still kept being dead with no signs of life then he was already dead when they found him. TOD is when the medical doctors finally stand down and know it is fruitless to continue their efforts anymore.

I have read countless articles where the EMTs worked on him and the ER doctors too but I have never seen one article that said there were any signs of life during all that time. Where did you read this?

Other than Murray saying when he was back at the home that MJ had a faint pulse (was that around 11?) I have seen no one else who has said he ever breathed another breath or showed any signs of life once they EMTs arrived at the Holmby mansion.

imo

They refuse to understand that the time of 2:26pm is the time the doctors called the death. And since death was called at THAT time, he must have taken his last breath. It is bull but what can you do? Many times I have posted that my girlfriends hubby was DEAD before he was placed into the ambulance, but when he arrived at the hospital they worked on him for over an HOUR. It happens all the time.

As per this theory, my girlfriend who laid DEAD on her bed for hours before the coroner got there was still breathing and wasn't actually dead until a time was called by the coroner. :rolleyes:

[warhorse46]

Again I am linking the amended death certificate. The time of death is listed as 1426 which is military time for 2:26 pm.

I don't see where the coroner is questioning this time of death. If the time of death was being questioned, it would not show this as his time of death on the death certificate.

The coroner would know if he died at 11:00 am or around that time and list it. If he thought Jackson died between 11am and 2:26pm why wouldn't he list that? If there was a question about the time, why wouldn't he put unknown? This is the amended death certificate done after the autopsy.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/01/jacksons-death-certificate-injection-by-another/

in my opinion


The time of death on the death certificate is the time the ER doctor pronounced Jackson, when all resuscitation efforts ceased. Yes, ER personnel will & do work on a patient for long periods of time who arrive @ the ER without vital signs but with cpr in progress. The ME takes the time the patient was pronounced as the time of death in a case like that. The only time they attempt to set the time of death is when a dead body is discovered & the time of death is unknown.

[Unperson1984]

The reality is the DA has to work with the time of death on the certificate and the fact the UCLA doctors worked on him for an hour.

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, that was on a program on TV Guide channel called Michael Jackson: His Final Days. The fire captain on the scene gave an interview. jmo

I would rather actually like to see what the EMTs determined and the ER Doctors rather than a Fire Chief that was just helping to secure the scene.

That is like in the Georgia mass murder case where some of the LE personnel on scene that first came there thought all the victims had been shot when that didn't turnout to be correct at all.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I still wanna know whats on the tape that is missing. Who took it..........LE or one of the jacksons? I think that tape holds a lot evidence. imo

When has police come out and said they have a missing tape?

imo

[GentleBreeze]

--------------------------

According to the fire captain, MJ was alive when he left the house. imo

He may have assumed that simply because the EMTs were still trying to work on him in route to the hospital.

Doesn't mean he was alive though.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

-----------------------------------------

pay attention. imo

Please dont start your crap today.

If all you can do is be rude then please scroll on by my posts or put me on ignore.:rolleyes:

Again, where is the link where the police has said a tape is missing?

imo

[GentleBreeze]

In a murder case like that, the ME would determine the time of death and the cause of death. Not the police personal.

The fire captain would be in charge of the scene and not helping to secure the scene. All reports would have gone to the ME. IMO

The fire chief has no authority in calling MJ deceased. He left his Holmby residence via an ambulance in route to the hospital.

I am still going to wait and see if there ever was one glimpse of life in MJ from the arrival of EMTs until it was pronounced at 2:26 pm.

IMO, there will be no signs of life from the time they arrived until the time the doctors' finally stood down.

imo

[Unperson1984]

He may have assumed that simply because the EMTs were still trying to work on him in route to the hospital.

Doesn't mean he was alive though.

imo

Legally he was, and that's what the DA has to use in deciding to charge Murray.

[Imperfect4]

Legally he was, and that's what the DA has to use in deciding to charge Murray.

Oh! Wow! I didn't know that. Interesting.

[Firehead11]

EMTs certainly do pronounce people dead on scenes. That is when they don't transport. Just saying........ jmo

Not in my state, they do not pronounce anyone deceased. The coroner is either called in or they are transported.

[warhorse46]

EMTs certainly do pronounce people dead on scenes. That is when they don't transport. Just saying........ jmo



EMTs do not pronounce the death. They are in contact with an MD @ the ER, giving him/her their observations, have the patient hooked to monitors which may or may not be transmitting directly to the ER & the Dr will call it not the EMTs.

[warhorse46]

But the chief was on the scene observing. The EMTs report to him. imo




No, the EMTs do not report to the Fire Chief. They report to the ER Doctor.

[Unperson1984]

What about that whole lividity thing? I mean if MJ was still alive, lividity wouldn't be occuring, right? Wouldn't the bigger factor in deciding to charge Murray, be that Michael is in fact dead, and that he died at the hand of another. Whether he died at 8:00 am, 11:00 am or 2:30 pm.. the fact remains.... he is still dead.

We have to believe the ME considered all factors when he placed the time of death on the certificate.

[Imperfect4]

Maybe part of the holdup in releasing the autopsy report and in arresting someone is the coroner has reason to revisit the manner of death and might issue another amended death certificate.






:w00t:

[Firehead11]

The 911 called was released Friday afternoon (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/) with the caller reporting that Jackson was on a bed, not breathing and that a doctor was already attempting CPR. The caller says repeatedly Jackson was not responding to anything. "We have a gentlemen here, who needs help ... he's not breathing, we're trying to pump but ... he's not breathing." the caller says, not identifying Jackson by name. "He's unconscious."

"The LAFD received a 911 call for a 50 year old male who was not breathing and unresponsive. Engine 71 and paramedic rescue ambulance 71 responded and was on scene within a few minutes," Marc Eckstein, MD, MPH, FACEP, Medical Director of the Los Angeles Fire Department, told JEMS.com. "They found Mr. Jackson in full cardiac arrest with CPR in progress."

"LAFD members immediately took over CPR and intiated both basic and advanced life support interventions," Eckstein continued. "They aggressively attempted resuscitation on scene for approximately 30 minutes, and after consultation with on-line medical control at the UCLA base station, they continued resuscitative efforts during the short transport to the UCLA emergency department. There was no change in the patient's status during his prehospital course."


Doesn't this sound like they delivered a dead man to the hospital after 30 minutes of professional resusitaton efforts. Not breathing, no pulse = dead. The Emergency room continued attempts to revive him to no avail. How can this be more clear.

http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/michael-jackson-ems-response

Good Try Eagle but I doubt that anyone will listen to you. Don't you know that the Firechief has stated that Jackson was alive when he was loaded into the ambulance. :rolleyes:

[Firehead11]

As it happens, at least in my eperience..the time of when the Dr. pronounces..in ER is actually the time they stop all attempts to resuscitate..andfor me that resuscitate means to revive..Anyway, that time is only used where the death was either eXpected or for non-suspicious cases..In all coroner cases that I know of, it is their responsibility to assign a TOD...especially when COD hasnt even been determined..of course MJ died because his heart stopped...I think it then becomes necessary to figure out why??..No?...

IF actual TOD was exclusively the DR.'s in resucitation scenerios..why does it then get left to the ME/or Coroner to find that??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroner

[edit] Duties
Duties always include determining the cause, time, and manner of death. This uses the same investigatory skills of a police detective in most cases, because the answers are available from the circumstances, scene, and recent medical records. In many American jurisdictions any death not certified by the person's own physician must be referred to the medical examiner. If an individual dies outside of their state of residence, the coroner of the state in which the death took place issues the death certificate. Only a small percentage of deaths require an autopsy to determine the time, cause and manner of death.

I do find it curious that some who have only watch resuscitations, seem to know what, why and when we do things???..Just shaking my head...I know for myself what, why, when, where and how I do things not to mention fo what reasons....and can only speak from my experience.

LMS

Lynda, I am not arguing with you. I know we had to wait hours for her body to be picked up by the coroner. She had died during the night. Her surviving son did not want an autopsy done. She was pronounced dead and taken directly to the funeral parlor.

[Imperfect4]

Its not my role to hang anyone. I am passionately opposed to convictions gained wrongfully and innocent humans imprisoned as the consequence. I also don't believe that Murray should get a free pass because his victim was weird and had to much plastic surgery. I support truth based justice and equality for all.

That was an entirely unnecessary and not too subtle shot at those who don't think MJ should get a "free pass" to be absolved of all personal responsibility for his substance abuse problem. If he had no substance abuse problem, there would've been no Dr. Murray at his bedside, pumping him full of his (Michael's) meds-of-choice, and behaving in a negligent fashion in the process.

[Firehead11]

No one is giving Jackson a free pass on this. He paid the price for his choices in life. Do I have to make the font bigger and bold it, to make that point understood. But that doctor should not have given Jackson drug after drug after drug and not be prepared for the absolute worse to happen. And it did. His patient died. It is unbelievable;e to me that a cardiologist would even leave the house without a defib machine. Murray also needs to pay A price for what he has done.

[Firehead11]

FH..MJ was on total life support, so legally he had not been pronounced dead...he was on life support to support what was no doubt the definition of "Clinically dead"..however only a Coroner can stipulate that, or a phyician..

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clinically+dead

Clinically dead definition~~

clinically dead
as far as can be ascertained by a clinical examination the patient is dead. There is no pulse, no respiratory movement and no corneal reflex.
clinically normal
the patient is normal in all clinical parameters


So until MJ can be pronounced...laypersons cannot say they are dead..and from their point of view is is then alive...It is obvious you have never been around or experienced that limbo period..So is not use in trying to inform things that cant be understood/or accepted as fact....

I give up!!

LMS

I understand Lynda, I really do. But let's face it, most posters at CTV, IS have been discussing death for a long time. Many know the differences. And some just don't want to even admit, by all standards Jackson was dead before he left that house. Hell some refuse to believe that they do indeed work on a deceased person. And if anything can be funny here, some of the same posters who post on the Anna Nicole Smith saga, will believe the opposite when it comes to her death. If you can figure that out, let me know.

[Imperfect4]

Michael is dead and it is now between he and God to decide if he should be absoved or not. If there were no such thing as unethical, greedy, or just plain lousy doctors, he would not have had a prescription drug abuse problem, nor would any of the millions and millions of prescription drug addicts out there fighting the same demon.

He might've had an illegal drug abuse problem, however.

Who is responsible for all the people addicted to street drugs? Who shall we blame for that? Because lord knows we can't hold individuals responsible for their own behavior.

[Firehead11]

Your experience was in a case of either expected or not suspicious..and she had to be cleared for transport to Funeral parlor by the coroner/ME depends on just where you live...

However, whenever someone dies un-expectedly, or in circumstances that cannot explain it...such as MJ..things are very different...I dont think there would ever be a case of someone being found dead, unknown causes, that they would be shipped off the the funeral home for burial...Just a hunch on my part..Course, who knows what goes on in small towns and villages..??

LMS

No, her death was not expected at all. But there also were no signs of foul play. The state troopers had talked to everyone that was there including me. The coroner was at her house and she is the one that took her to the funeral parlor.

[Firehead11]

Well, she was assessed by the coroner, and in her due diligence, felt there was no reason for autopsy, since family didnt want it either...

I have heard of cases such as your experience..when years later, exhumations are done..and foul play does get proven (look at Drew Petersons X wife's death)..even in court..It isnt a sure proof thing making such rulings by coroners....is it? I do hope you have moved on and at least accepted it..It is always difficult..no matter how death comes into your life!!..:wub:

LMS

Was and still is a hard thing to deal with but life goes on. We were friends for over 30 years. She is missed. And it was her husband that was dead before he was loaded onto the ambulance and was still worked on for over an hour by the er staff.Anyway I understand everyone has to judge this by their own experiences that they have had in life but sometimes, the logic is so skewered to my way of thinking, that it doesn't make sense.

Thanks for the understanding.

[Imperfect4]

There is plenty of blame to be shared. For instance I blame the huge heroin addiction problem that is seen in junior high and high schools, even elementary schools on the Mexican drug cartel, and this country's failure to address and combat the border control issues. I blame the schools for failing to inform the parents of its students, that heroin use among school aged children is at epidemic levels. I blame the parents, who are aware of this epidemic for not insisting the schools face this problem that is destroying the lives of so many students. I blame genetics for the passing of "the gene" through generation after generation without giving science the key to unlocking the mystery of addiction. I blame anyone, either doctor or dealer, or pharmaceutical companies who seek out to profit from the disease of addiction. And then whatever blame is leftover, I assign to the addict who is suffering from the disease, and can't for the life of them, control the urge necessary to sustain heath and happiness.

Conspicuously absent from your post is an acknowledgment of personal responsibility on the part of parents to properly parent their children, and of course, any acknowledgment that addicts do, indeed, have choices. If they did not, per your description, not one substance abuser would ever get sober. Yet they do. Every day.

[Imperfect4]

More about Janet's tribute tonite at the VMA's:

Janet Jackson will kick off the show on Sunday night with a tribute to her late brother. Michael Jackson's death on June 25 was soon-after followed by the BET Awards (where Janet Jackson also appeared), but MTV was the music network with which the King of Pop was more aligned.

More at link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32785344/ns/entertainment/?GT1=43001

And an interesting op-ed piece:

On Oct. 30, oddly enough just in time for Halloween, Sony Pictures will release “Michael Jackson This Is It.” People will line up and pay their $10 to take a look at Jackson’s final performance rehearsals before his death. For me, this prospect is cringe worthy.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Jackson fan from way back. My mom has a picture of me as a kid, excitedly holding up a copy of “Off the Wall” that I’d received as a gift. But this film release stinks of exploitation; just another way to keep money rolling into the estate.

More at link: http://testpattern.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/08/26/2044676.aspx

[who_is_it]

<snipped>
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Jackson fan from way back. My mom has a picture of me as a kid, excitedly holding up a copy of “Off the Wall” that I’d received as a gift. But this film release stinks of exploitation; just another way to keep money rolling into the estate.

More at link: http://testpattern.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/08/26/2044676.aspx

I disagree. The concert movie is one of the few attempts which is NO exploitation imo. This is what the 800,000 people who had bought tickets wanted to see! I'm also convinced this is what Michael wanted "the world" to see (apart from the missing stage outfit; I think he wouldn't like that part of it).

Besides Kenny Ortega and Randy Phillips just gave brief, dignified statements after Michael's death -- imo one of the few people who remained dignified.

[who_is_it]

I understand Lynda, I really do. But let's face it, most posters at CTV, IS have been discussing death for a long time. Many know the differences. And some just don't want to even admit, by all standards Jackson was dead before he left that house.

<snipped>


I stayed out of the latest discussion of the death time because it would have bored me to participate.

To back up what you said:

It was the VERY FIRST news TMZ on June 25 that Michael was dead already when the paramedics arrived:

Michael Jackson dies
"We've just learned Michael Jackson has died. He was 50. (...)

A source tells us Jackson was dead when paramedics arrived."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/

[GentleBreeze]

The 911 called was released Friday afternoon (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/) with the caller reporting that Jackson was on a bed, not breathing and that a doctor was already attempting CPR. The caller says repeatedly Jackson was not responding to anything. "We have a gentlemen here, who needs help ... he's not breathing, we're trying to pump but ... he's not breathing." the caller says, not identifying Jackson by name. "He's unconscious."

"The LAFD received a 911 call for a 50 year old male who was not breathing and unresponsive. Engine 71 and paramedic rescue ambulance 71 responded and was on scene within a few minutes," Marc Eckstein, MD, MPH, FACEP, Medical Director of the Los Angeles Fire Department, told JEMS.com. "They found Mr. Jackson in full cardiac arrest with CPR in progress."

"LAFD members immediately took over CPR and initiated both basic and advanced life support interventions," Eckstein continued. "They aggressively attempted resuscitation on scene for approximately 30 minutes, and after consultation with on-line medical control at the UCLA base station, they continued resuscitative efforts during the short transport to the UCLA emergency department. There was no change in the patient's status during his prehospital course."


Doesn't this sound like they delivered a dead man to the hospital after 30 minutes of professional resuscitating efforts. Not breathing, no pulse = dead. The Emergency room continued attempts to revive him to no avail. How can this be more clear.

http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/michael-jackson-ems-response

Finally. This is clear as a bell. I think Marc Eckstein, MD, MPH, FACEP, Medical Director of the Los Angeles Fire Department, has a little more clout and credibility than a fire chief at the scene.

When they arrived Michael showed no signs of life and never did after then. What is so hard to understand about that? Since he died from acute intoxication this came on quickly when the drug flooded his system and imo he expired very shortly after receiving the injection.

imo

[Unperson1984]

I understand Lynda, I really do. But let's face it, most posters at CTV, IS have been discussing death for a long time. Many know the differences. And some just don't want to even admit, by all standards Jackson was dead before he left that house. Hell some refuse to believe that they do indeed work on a deceased person. And if anything can be funny here, some of the same posters who post on the Anna Nicole Smith saga, will believe the opposite when it comes to her death. If you can figure that out, let me know.

I think the difference is some are talking about legally dead and others are talking about medically dead.

[Imperfect4]

I think the difference is some are talking about legally dead and others are talking about medically dead.

And if I understand your earlier point, it's the legally dead time the DA will use to build a case, or not.

[GentleBreeze]

And that is the time of death on the death certificate which is the legal time of death and what the DA will have to use if he brings charges. jmo

Nothing else matters and is not worth arguing any further. imo The coroner will not set another time of death in this case. He has released the death certificate. imo

The Coroner will tell the jury why that time was chosen and the particulars as to what happened and when. However jurors will have no problem understanding that in layman terms MJ was clinically dead and never regained any signs of life from the minute the EMTs got there until pronounced legally dead at 2:26 pm. I have seen this Coroner before in other trials he is very clear on what was done, how they were done and why something is handled a certain way it is.


IMO

[Imperfect4]

The Coroner will tell the jury why that time was chosen and the particulars as to what happened and when. However jurors will have no problem understanding that in layman terms MJ was clinically dead and never regained any signs of life from the minute the EMTs got there until pronounced legally dead at 2:26 pm. I have seen this Coroner before in other trials he is very clear on what was done, how they were done and why something is handled a certain way it is.


IMO

Why would the coroner, who wasn't on scene at MJ's home or at the hospital, be the one to recount all the details of what took place in each of those locations?

[GentleBreeze]

Lynda,

I am reposting this because it was said so perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorse46 View Post
The time of death on the death certificate is the time the ER doctor pronounced Jackson, when all resuscitation efforts ceased. Yes, ER personnel will & do work on a patient for long periods of time who arrive @ the ER without vital signs but with cpr in progress. The ME takes the time the patient was pronounced as the time of death in a case like that. The only time they attempt to set the time of death is when a dead body is discovered & the time of death is unknown.




That is also my impression.

The ER doctors called this time of death and the Coroner is using the same time on the death certificate.

It is called after they have exhausted all avenues to resuscitate even if the patient never had vital signs throughout any of their efforts.

imo

[flipflop]

Janet Jackson's tribute to Michael, at the VMA awards starts in a few mins on MTV channel.

[GentleBreeze]

And there would have been no CPR or ER doing anything if he had been dead for any length of time. He had just stopped breathing and having no heartbeat. That is my point and the jury will also understand that if there is a trial. He was not dead until the resuscitation was stopped.
JMO

I don't agree. Murray was supposedly doing some type of CPR on the patient until EMTs arrived then they took over CPR and after 30 minutes of not being able to obtain vital signs Murray insisted they take MJ and they did CPR in transport where hospital personnel followed suit and probably used other life supporting measures.

He was dead and that is the main thing that is going to be of concern to the jury if there is one. Not the time after all the medical personnel took trying to save him and couldn't but the last time when anyone saw signs of life.

The DA is going to ask everyone of those medical witnesses did they ever see any signs of life and they will say no. The jury will have no problem realizing MJ was dead before 911 was called.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Why would the coroner, who wasn't on scene at MJ's home or at the hospital, be the one to recount all the details of what took place in each of those locations?

He gets all the reports because it was a death investigation done by his office but that is not what I was referring to..... He will explain why a 2:26 pm TOD was put on the death certificate.

The other medical personnel on duty that day will testify to what they saw and tried to do and if they ever saw any signs of life once they began working on MJ.

And witnesses at the Holmby mansion will testify too.

imo

[Imperfect4]

He gets all the reports because it was a death investigation done by his office but that is not what I was referring to..... He will explain why a 2:26 pm TOD was put on the death certificate.

The other medical personnel on duty that day will testify to what they saw and tried to do and if they ever saw any signs of life once they began working on MJ.

And witnesses at the Holmby mansion will testify too.

imo

That makes much more sense.

[Imperfect4]

So I just watched the MJ tribute on the VMA's. I thought Madonna's speech was very good, and I'm so glad she avoided that odd semi-British accent she sometimes adopts.

I thought the clips of MJ's videos were great.

The intro to Janet's piece was good ... but I don't know how I feel about it after that. I was expecting something else, or maybe something more. I don't really know. :huh:

[Imperfect4]

It doesn't to me. It would depend on what charges would be filed as to what the DA would be trying to prove. Anyway, the coroner explains from the questions the DA asks. The coroner is on the stand for what caused the death. The time of death is already accepted as 2:26 pm. jmo

I agree that the coroner can't testify to what occurred at MJ's home or at the hospital. But I would assume if the DA files charges against Murray, everything that occurred in the hours leading up to MJ's death would come into play, and the testimony of everyone who was at those two locations during that time period would be taken.

[Unperson1984]

And if I understand your earlier point, it's the legally dead time the DA will use to build a case, or not.

He can't argue against the official documents and say MJ died earlier, but he can point out that MJ never drew a breath on his own from the time the EMTs arrived.

I would love to know the sticking point on charging Murray, there's got to be a reason they aren't ready to charge him.

[Unperson1984]

The Coroner will tell the jury why that time was chosen and the particulars as to what happened and when. However jurors will have no problem understanding that in layman terms MJ was clinically dead and never regained any signs of life from the minute the EMTs got there until pronounced legally dead at 2:26 pm. I have seen this Coroner before in other trials he is very clear on what was done, how they were done and why something is handled a certain way it is.


IMO

The ME didn't choose the time of death it was on the hospital report, nor can he testify to anything he didn't witness. He can testify as to his medical findings and conclusions.

[Unperson1984]

For those that have been following the case of missing Anne Le, her body was found this afternoon inside one of the walls at Yale.
God Bless her soul.

Today was to be her wedding day...I'm sitting here with tears running down my face.

[GentleBreeze]

It doesn't to me. It would depend on what charges would be filed as to what the DA would be trying to prove. Anyway, the coroner explains from the questions the DA asks. The coroner is on the stand for what caused the death. The time of death is already accepted as 2:26 pm. jmo

If this goes to trial I do think it will become very prevalent testimony. I have seen both DAs and defense attorneys ask questions about the TOD.

We have already seen in the SW from Texas where Murray was on the phone right after he said he gave him the diprivan talking to three people for around 47 minutes. They will bring in the fact that he did not bring down his oxygen tanks in the morning like he normally did and other circumstantial evidence.

The Coroner will explain how they came to that time for the TOD and also that through all of it they saw no signs of life.
ETA: Or the doctor will tesify to TOD and how the time came to be.

The Coroner or other medical experts in the drug field will also give a time window when they think MJ went into full cardiac arrest once being intoxicated with the anesthetic injection.

When I lost my mom they worked on her for about an hour trying to bring her back and then pronounced death. I was very well aware the minute she died. I saw her take her last breath and knew she did not live an hour longer even though that is when the doctor called it.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks Buzzz. I figured that when they mentioned they did not see a video of her coming out and a false fire alarm was reported. Same exact scenario of a cleaning woman in NY -- sounds like a copycat. :(

May Annie Le RIP and condolences to her family and fiancé. :rose:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h6BgLZZw8rBEvL5ha3Py_mIyoRiQD9AMPKG80

What another senseless tragedy.

I knew she had to be hidden there somewhere. It sure took them a long time to find her.

It has to be someone that has a ID badge.

She was such a pretty young lady and the photos of her and her fiancé they looked so happy.:rose:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

The ME didn't choose the time of death it was on the hospital report, nor can he testify to anything he didn't witness. He can testify as to his medical findings and conclusions.

Thanks for the correction.

Then I have no doubt that the main ER medical doctor on duty will testify to what transpired that day.

imo

[warhorse46]

They report to the ER doctor and as I have posted they were in constant contact with the ER during this time according to the chief.

They also report to their supervisor when everything is over with. They also write a report.

IMO




Yes they sure do the things you listed but they did not nor do not report to the Fire Chief. They simply do not have the time to be updating him on the patient's condition while trying to save his life.

[warhorse46]

TY so much War...I am getting so frustrated trying to explain logically..just isnt being accepted...I know I live and practice in Canada, however I rather doubt we do things much differently than you all ??..

LMS:tongueside:



I know some medical things are different but not this one. The only time an EMT calls a death is when the MD on the other end of the communication line tells him/her to do so.

[warhorse46]

FH..MJ was on total life support, so legally he had not been pronounced dead...he was on life support to support what was no doubt the definition of "Clinically dead"..however only a Coroner can stipulate that, or a phyician..

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clinically+dead

Clinically dead definition~~

clinically dead
as far as can be ascertained by a clinical examination the patient is dead. There is no pulse, no respiratory movement and no corneal reflex.
clinically normal
the patient is normal in all clinical parameters


So until MJ can be pronounced...laypersons cannot say they are dead..and from their point of view is is then alive...It is obvious you have never been around or experienced that limbo period..So is not use in trying to inform things that cant be understood/or accepted as fact....

I give up!!

LMS


I understand completely what you are saying. Anytime a person presents without a heartbeat, respirations or reflexes they are clinically dead. They may not be pronounced until much later for what ever reason but for all intents & purposes they are dead. It is like when lay people see a brain dead person on a vent, they see the chest rising & falling so they think the patient is breathing so is not dead.

[warhorse46]

Oh like the documentary where the fire chief gave an interview that totally debunked the time of death being 11:00 am and the EMTs not saying, upon arrival, Jackson was dead? Oh and lets not forget he said the EMTs were in constant contact with the ER. You mean like that one?

What's the name of the documentary and what channel is it on, or are you just making that up to try to be funny?

imo



The EMTs could not say Jackson was dead, that would put their license & jobs in jeopardy. They do not have the authority to pronounce death. All they can do is say what they observe, ie, no heartbeat, no respirations, no reflexes, skin color, muscle tone.

[Unperson1984]

Thanks for the correction.

Then I have no doubt that the main ER medical doctor on duty will testify to what transpired that day.

imo

It's going to depend on what, if anything, Murray is charged with. If he is charged with involuntary manslaughter because he administered improper drugs in the home, the exact time MJ died isn't relevant.

[warhorse46]

So it is all the doctor's fault there are hard core addicts? I think not.
It is the addict's fault and their's alone. If Jackson couldn't find doctors with all his doctor shopping, money, and celebrity, he would of bought off the street. Doctors are the victims here.

IMO



No doctors are not the victims in prescription medication abuse. They have not only the right but the obligation NOT to over prescribe to addicts. The exception to that rule is in a terminal illness that has tremendous pain associated with it such as cancer & Jackson does not fall in that category.

[Unperson1984]

No doctors are not the victims in prescription medication abuse. They have not only the right but the obligation NOT to over prescribe to addicts. The exception to that rule is in a terminal illness that has tremendous pain associated with it such as cancer & Jackson does not fall in that category.

Couldn't agree more. Jackson was the addict, but the doctors were the drug dealers. No victims.

[warhorse46]

And that is the time of death on the death certificate which is the legal time of death and what the DA will have to use if he brings charges. jmo

Nothing else matters and is not worth arguing any further. imo The coroner will not set another time of death in this case. He has released the death certificate. imo




No the DA does not have to use the TOD listed on the death certificate. He can & will bring in the EMTs, the ER doctors to testify to Jackson's condition when they first saw him if there is a trial. The jury can decide for themselves if Jackson was alive when he left the house or not. But I guarantee you if there are any jurors with medical experience they will know that Jackson was dead when the EMTs arrived. They will understand the difference between actual TOD & time of pronouncement.

[warhorse46]

And there would have been no CPR or ER doing anything if he had been dead for any length of time. He had just stopped breathing and having no heartbeat. That is my point and the jury will also understand that if there is a trial. He was not dead until the resuscitation was stopped.
JMO



That is not true. He was clinically dead (in full cardiac & respiratory arrest) when the EMTs arrived but Dr. Murray was attempting cpr. Since he would not call the death they are required by law to continue cpr & transport to the ER even if they think their efforts are fruitless. They were attempting to revive him not continue a flicker of life.

[warhorse46]

That is also my impression.

The ER doctors called this time of death and the Coroner is using the same time on the death certificate.

It is called after they have exhausted all avenues to resuscitate even if the patient never had vital signs throughout any of their efforts.

imo


That's what I was saying but apparently PointQueen failed to see my point. They were trying to bring him back to life not keep a flicker of life going.

[Imperfect4]

Today was to be her wedding day...I'm sitting here with tears running down my face.

Yes, it was. So sad.

For Annie, her family and fiance. :rose:

[Imperfect4]

Oh, I missed it. I'll try to catch the rerun. What channel was it on?

It was on three Direct TV channels here in the Reno area. MTV, MTV2 and VH1.

[warhorse46]

-------------

Excuse me here but Murray is absolutely the victim of MJ. MJ took advantage of the doc and i'm sure there r many more, too. imo



I do not agree. Dr. Murray had the ability to tell Jackson no he would not be his personal physician. But I think he saw what he thought was a chance to make mega bucks in an easy way. If he is the victim of anything he is a victim of his own greed, IMO. He made the choice to inject the cocktail of drugs that resulted in Jackson's death.

[Imperfect4]

He can't argue against the official documents and say MJ died earlier, but he can point out that MJ never drew a breath on his own from the time the EMTs arrived.

I would love to know the sticking point on charging Murray, there's got to be a reason they aren't ready to charge him.

ITA about charging Murray. I'm still thinking there was another drug or drugs in MJ's system Murray wasn't aware of, and LE believes him on that point.

[Unperson1984]

ITA about charging Murray. I'm still thinking there was another drug or drugs in MJ's system Murray wasn't aware of, and LE believes him on that point.

I think you're right, there is something in the full tox report that is problematic for the DA.

[Imperfect4]

-------------

i agree........drugs that were probably taken by MJ himself. imo

That would be a logical conclusion to draw, if Murray is to be believed. And since he told authorities what he DID give MJ, he has probably been deemed credible to at least some degree.

So it could be very difficult determining Murray's exact culpability in MJ's death, if MJ self-medicated with substances Murray wasn't aware of prior to or at some point during Murray's dispensing of all the other meds that night/morning.

[GentleBreeze]

That's what I was saying but apparently PointQueen failed to see my point. They were trying to bring him back to life not keep a flicker of life going.

Thank you. You can explain what I have been trying to say so much better than I can.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

That's not true. The EMTs took over the CPR and were in constant contact with the ER doctor and was going by those instructions not Dr Murray's. They worked on him for 43 minuets on the scene while in communication with the ER and were told to transport him by the ER doctor.

It was another false rumor Dr Murray pushed them to resuscitate him and wouldn't call it and it was a rumor the EMTs said he was dead on the scene and wanted to call it themselves. jmo
Where was that debunked?

I don't remember reading anything that these are debunked rumors.

Have the EMTs who actually worked on MJ that day spoken out to the media?

imo

[Imperfect4]

--------------------------

I think LE does believe Murray.............therefore no arrest. He told the truth. I'm willing to bet tht MJ did indeed self-medicate. So i go back to my original theory that MJ killed himself. imo

I think Murray should not have been there at all, helping a substance abuser abuse substances. MJ should've been in rehab, not preparing for a concert tour he had no hope of completing, and certainly not hiring a personal physician to help him stay safely enslaved to his drugs while on tour.

I think the old saying, "If you play with fire, you get burned," applies to both MJ and Murray in this case.

[GentleBreeze]

I think you're right, there is something in the full tox report that is problematic for the DA.

Such as what?

They listed all the drugs found and they all were given by Murray.

imo

[Imperfect4]

Such as what?

They listed all the drugs found and they all were given by Murray.

imo

IIRC, the lists we've seen are only the drugs Murray admits to giving to MJ.

We HAVE NOT SEEN the autopsy report. That is the conclusive document.

[Firehead11]

http://www.mtv.com/ontv/vma/2009/video.jhtml

For those who missed the tribute and Madonna's speech, here are the links.

[Firehead11]

Gosh... Don't you think the coroner evaluated the tox report and based his homicide finding on it?

Nah, he should have asked the fire chief who apparently knows a lot more than the coroner does. :rolleyes:


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/06/pop-star-michael-jackson-was-rushed-to-a-hospital-this-afternoon-by-los-angeles-fire-department-paramedics--capt-steve-ruda.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef011570767855970c
Pop star Michael Jackson was pronounced dead today after paramedics found him in a coma at his Bel-Air mansion, city and law enforcement sources told The Times.

Los Angeles Fire Department Capt. Steve Ruda told The Times that paramedics responded to a 911 call from the home. When they arrived, Jackson was not breathing

Coma or not breathing? Hmmmmmm

Know what I mean?

[GentleBreeze]

----------------

As per many doctors that i have heard talk on this subject, 25 mg of diprivan was not enough to kill MJ. The other drugs were probably taken by MJ himself. And i don't doubt this either. imo

I haven't heard a one of these many doctors say though that they suspect MJ gave it to himself. They said that they believed Murray gave him more than he was willing to admit.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Nah, he should have asked the fire chief who apparently knows a lot more than the coroner does. :rolleyes:


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/06/pop-star-michael-jackson-was-rushed-to-a-hospital-this-afternoon-by-los-angeles-fire-department-paramedics--capt-steve-ruda.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef011570767855970c
Pop star Michael Jackson was pronounced dead today after paramedics found him in a coma at his Bel-Air mansion, city and law enforcement sources told The Times.

Los Angeles Fire Department Capt. Steve Ruda told The Times that paramedics responded to a 911 call from the home. When they arrived, Jackson was not breathing
Coma or not breathing? Hmmmmmm

Know what I mean?

Sheesh even the media cant get it straight. He was not breathing. How is that being in a coma?

Who do they have writing this stuff when the two words used are contradictory with each other.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Dr Murray also did not have the proper rescue equipment:

lorazepam ⇔ propofol
Moderate Drug Interaction

Applies to: Ativan (lorazepam) and Diprivan (propofol)
MONITOR: Additive central nervous system and cardiorespiratory depressant effects may occur when fospropofol or propofol is administered with other depressants such as sedative-hypnotic agents and narcotic analgesics. MANAGEMENT: Patients should be monitored closely for excessive sedation and cardiorespiratory depression, and the medication dosage(s) adjusted accordingly. Supportive therapy should be provided if needed.

http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/ativan-with-diprivan-1488-899-1954-2336.html


Isn't it strange that Murray just happened to start cutting back the very day that MJ died from the propofol. Sounds like a self serving statement to me especially when MJ died from acute propofol intoxication.

imo

[Firehead11]

Look at the date on the link. Much more information has come out since then. IMO


That is one of the articles I found in regards to the Fire Chief that has been in the news.

What's the date of the TV Guide documentary?

[warhorse46]

----------------

As per many doctors that i have heard talk on this subject, 25 mg of diprivan was not enough to kill MJ. The other drugs were probably taken by MJ himself. And i dont doubt this either. imo




According to the information we have now (which I admit is scant) Dr. Murray admits to giving Jackson multiple drugs that day. It is not one single drug that caused the death but the combination of drugs.

[warhorse46]

That's not true. The EMTs took over the CPR and were in constant contact with the ER doctor and was going by those instructions not Dr Murray's. They worked on him for 43 minuets on the scene while in communication with the ER and were told to transport him by the ER doctor.

It was another false rumor Dr Murray pushed them to resuscitate him and wouldn't call it and it was a rumor the EMTs said he was dead on the scene and wanted to call it themselves. jmo




According to the reports I have read the EMTs worked on Jackson for half an hour not 43 minutes. The ER Dr instructed them @ that point there was nothing more to be done for him in the field, to package him & transport to the ER.

[Firehead11]

According to the information we have now (which I admit is scant) Dr. Murray admits to giving Jackson multiple drugs that day. It is not one single drug that caused the death but the combination of drugs.

Warhorse, I would think that the coroner would already know which drugs were found in his system. He had to have received the entire tox report and make his determination based on his knowledge.

I doubt that there are any surprise drugs in Jackson's system.

[warhorse46]

--------------------------

I think LE does believe Murray.............therefore no arrest. He told the truth. I'm willing to bet tht MJ did indeed self-medicate. So i go back to my original theory that MJ killed himself. imo


So you are saying the ME lied or was mistaken when he checked the manner of death as homicide? There is a box for suicide but he did not find evidence of that so ruled it out as the manner of death.

[Firehead11]

Again, the coroner would know all the drugs that were in Jackson's system. he would also know the affects that any combination would have.

And it is possible that Murray lied about the amount of drugs he gave Jackson, we just don't know all of it yet.

Murray contributed to Jackson's death. There is no way around that.

[warhorse46]

How many times are you going to post this link? Whether they worked on him on the scene for 30 minuets or 43 minuets doesn't matter. The fact is they worked on him in the field while in contact with ER and transported him per ER doc. End of story. jmo




I think the end of the story is that Jackson was in full cardiac & respitory arrest, which equals dead, when the EMTs arrived & his condition never changed even after advanced resuscitation efforts @ the ER.

[warhorse46]

Again, the coroner would know all the drugs that were in Jackson's system. he would also know the affects that any combination would have.

And it is possible that Murray lied about the amount of drugs he gave Jackson, we just don't know all of it yet.

Murray contributed to Jackson's death. There is no way around that.




Exactly right, the ME knows the full tox report & still ruled the death a homicide.

[warhorse46]

You're right. I'm am speculating on why the DA has not charged Murray.

Is the sticking point a discrepancy as to the amount found in Jackson's system and what Murray said he gave him? jmo

It looks to me like Murray did keep records and probably a chart. imo


I think the DA is making very sure of his case before he charges. Taking his time to have the most solid case possible. After all it took from Feb. 8th 2007 to March 12th 2009 to charge the doctors in Anna Nicole Smith's death. Over 2 years of investigation before charges were brought & this investigation is still very young.

[Firehead11]

You're right. I'm am speculating on why the DA has not charged Murray.

Is the sticking point a discrepancy as to the amount found in Jackson's system and what Murray said he gave him? jmo

It looks to me like Murray did keep records and probably a chart. imo

BTW, those doctors records and a chart would have gone with the EMTs to the hospital, so the EMTs and the ER doctors would have known about the diprivan without Murray verbally telling them. imo

According to the search warrant, Murray wasn't as forth coming with information about what drugs Jackson was given at first as you are claiming. If you need the link to it, I will supply it for you.

[warhorse46]

You're right. I'm am speculating on why the DA has not charged Murray.

Is the sticking point a discrepancy as to the amount found in Jackson's system and what Murray said he gave him? jmo

It looks to me like Murray did keep records and probably a chart. imo

BTW, those doctors records and a chart would have gone with the EMTs to the hospital, so the EMTs and the ER doctors would have known about the diprivan without Murray verbally telling them. imo


No those documents would not have been transported to the ER with Jackson. The only documents that might have been transported if they existed would have been a dnr or living will or durable power of attorney. All the ER doctors had to go on was the verbal communication of Dr. Murray as to what drugs were on board & their amounts.

[warhorse46]

I disagree completely with that. JMO



Disagree all you want, what I stated is a fact. I have participated in many emergency transports to the ER while working in home health & know the procedure well.

[Firehead11]

No not at all. The search warrant is old and is only probable cause. Murry's lawyer has given an answer to that. I have the link if you would like it. jmo


Sure, let me read what the defense says.

I will keep in mind that the search warrant application is a sworn statement though.

[Firehead11]

Just one thing I must say:

The tv guide channel is like a commercial. They do not show documentaries. A documentary would be shown on a full screen, not half of one. Can we get realistic here and take hold of the idea that it was NOT a documentary.

Thank you.

The only thing I have to say about that is that since some of us can't view it, I won't take someone else's opinion of it as gospel.

[who_is_it]

I've listened to Madonna's speech about Michael for a 2nd time and had to cry. What she says is so meaningful, profound and true. She spoke about his vulnerability like I've always perceived him. If you look at the people in the audience one can see that Madonna reached the hearts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htpm8hidIPc

I wish I could let her know how great her speech was!

For Madonna and Michael: :rose:

[Cindylee]

The way understood it...it was a combination of drugs that killed him, not the diprivan alone.

Without seeing the entire official tox report, we do not know ALL of the drugs found in his system. All it would take would be another drug, like Demerol, that Murray did not prescribed........

It is very possible that MJ came home from doing the show, and took something to relax...Ativan??? Then went to bed and Dr. Murray starts giving him whatever he gave him to get him to sleep, and didn't know about anything he had already taken. Which is not to say that what Dr. M gave him wouldn't have killed him anyway, but MJ could have been taking something all night long.