"Doctor admits euthanizing patients during Katrina"

[watcher2005]

"Doctor admits euthanizing patients during Katrina"

By ProPublica

Rawstory
Published: August 29, 2009

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/29/doctor-admits-patients-die/



No comment.

[orangetaffy]

This is another of those stories I have been following, but didnt dare say anything about it.

[Patriot]

‘‘To me, it was a no-brainer, and to this day I don’t feel bad about what I did,’’ Cook told ProPublica. ‘‘I gave her medicine so I could get rid of her faster, get the nurses off the floor.’’

He added, ‘‘There’s no question I hastened her demise.’’




Wow. I'm speechless.

[watcher2005]

Wow. I'm speechless.

That's three of us.

[theal3]

I recall the stories and coverage of what happened in that one hospital and how hard medical folks worked so hard for patients with back up power, and dimnish and changing floor and then having to evacuate and how some were found dead etc..... and interviews with nurses and doctors, and thought at the time: the pressure and wrestling with their consciences in dealing with patients and the elderly, and then having thoughts of their own families, and the tragedy of it all and that just maybe in their their thoughts they had to decide what would do the least harm to the patient, should they abandon them, if they can't move them, and leave them alone to die; were they conscious, were they aware and scared of what was going on, were they aged and discussed things with the Dr. etc.

What a terrible position to be in. A human tragedy. Like in war, matter of life and death and having to choose. I imagined no one was prepared for such circumstances. Sad all the way around.

[theal3]

grrrr. please don't remind me of the atrocities of katrina.
there were babies that were drowned and the elderly in wheel chairs who needed medication.
there was a young man on Oprah who watched his mother drown as they made their way to the roof of their home.
amazing the us government can air lift supplies to foreign countries within 24 hours, yet left people hanging from bridges and rooftops for days!
katrina is the worst catastrophe in american history...because it didn't have to be.

ITA, but some want to bring up the "death and doctor thing" and death panels, and euthanasia, and dredge up what those medical people faced.... needlessly....to score political points about the revisions in health care for this country.... now they are going after doctors....

Why are so many consumed with "death" as a political "tool." I guess it's fear? Katrina was a tragedy and it happened to our own people.... right in front of our eyes.

Saddest thing I've witnessed on TV in my lifetime, except for the civil rights fights in the 50s and 60s, and the way Blacks were treated in the U.S. with dogs and water hoses, etc, until the legislation was passed in mid 60s. I was young then, and wondered, WHY are people like THAT in urban areas or the south?

And now, all folks want is affordable access to medical care.... for a healthy strong America for the future of this country.

[magythekat]

I recall the stories and coverage of what happened in that one hospital and how hard medical folks worked so hard for patients with back up power, and dimnish and changing floor and then having to evacuate and how some were found dead etc..... and interviews with nurses and doctors, and thought at the time: the pressure and wrestling with their consciences in dealing with patients and the elderly, and then having thoughts of their own families, and the tragedy of it all and that just maybe in their their thoughts they had to decide what would do the least harm to the patient, should they abandon them, if they can't move them, and leave them alone to die; were they conscious, were they aware and scared of what was going on, were they aged and discussed things with the Dr. etc.

What a terrible position to be in. A human tragedy. Like in war, matter of life and death and having to choose. I imagined no one was prepared for such circumstances. Sad all the way around.

I can't help but wonder if you would be so 'understanding' if the patient was your mother or grandmother. I think it is horrendous, and it's a window into what is coming in the next few years. Nice thought, huh??
That doctor should be severly punished by serving time in prison, regardless of the circumstances surrounding his decision. Be prepared and hope you pass when God wants you to instead of some doctor deciding.:angry:

[desmom]

I recall the stories and coverage of what happened in that one hospital and how hard medical folks worked so hard for patients with back up power, and dimnish and changing floor and then having to evacuate and how some were found dead etc..... and interviews with nurses and doctors, and thought at the time: the pressure and wrestling with their consciences in dealing with patients and the elderly, and then having thoughts of their own families, and the tragedy of it all and that just maybe in their their thoughts they had to decide what would do the least harm to the patient, should they abandon them, if they can't move them, and leave them alone to die; were they conscious, were they aware and scared of what was going on, were they aged and discussed things with the Dr. etc.

What a terrible position to be in. A human tragedy. Like in war, matter of life and death and having to choose. I imagined no one was prepared for such circumstances. Sad all the way around.


I agree theal3. When I was an EMT many moons ago, we had numerous trainings on disaster triage. IMO, from what I have read, the medical personnel were in that position.

[Bill Justice]

grrrr. please don't remind me of the atrocities of katrina.
there were babies that were drowned and the elderly in wheel chairs who needed medication.
there was a young man on Oprah who watched his mother drown as they made their way to the roof of their home.
amazing the us government can air lift supplies to foreign countries within 24 hours, yet left people hanging from bridges and rooftops for days!
katrina is the worst catastrophe in american history...because it didn't have to be.



yet some folks want these bureaucrats to manage our health care.

[Pat]

There is a huge difference between what some of the doctors did at the hospital (alleviate suffering for terminal patients) and what this doctor has claimed he did:

‘‘To me, it was a no-brainer, and to this day I don’t feel bad about what I did,’’ Cook told ProPublica. ‘‘I gave her medicine so I could get rid of her faster, get the nurses off the floor.’’

He added, ‘‘There’s no question I hastened her demise.’’

He is guilty of murder, IMO. Concern for the patient had nothing to do with his decision...moving the nurses did. He sounds like he's bragging about it and daring anyone to do anything about it. I wonder if he was absent for the class the day they discussed medical ethics and the phrase "Do no harm". What a disgusting piece of work.

[Pat]

grrrr. please don't remind me of the atrocities of katrina.
there were babies that were drowned and the elderly in wheel chairs who needed medication.
there was a young man on Oprah who watched his mother drown as they made their way to the roof of their home.
amazing the us government can air lift supplies to foreign countries within 24 hours, yet left people hanging from bridges and rooftops for days!
katrina is the worst catastrophe in american history...because it didn't have to be.

The Feds made mistakes, no question about it. But the inept behavior on the part of Governor Blanco, and especially Mayor Ray Nagin, started that ball rolling. Had money for the levee system not been diverted into other project and into pockets for years, the levees may not have breached. Had that irresponsible Nagin insisted on a mandatory evacuation, provided those buses that sat in water to assist them out, made many more responsible decisions, a lot of what we saw after the levees broke wouldn't have happened. The crisis of government started while Katrina was still way out in the Gulf.

[Bill Justice]

The Feds made mistakes, no question about it. But the inept behavior on the part of Governor Blanco, and especially Mayor Ray Nagin, started that ball rolling. Had money for the levee system not been diverted into other project and into pockets for years, the levees may not have breached. Had that irresponsible Nagin insisted on a mandatory evacuation, provided those buses that sat in water to assist them out, made many more responsible decisions, a lot of what we saw after the levees broke wouldn't have happened. The crisis of government started while Katrina was still way out in the Gulf.

We had some major hurricanes in Florida but our state government was organized and professional.

[desmom]

I remember listening to the warnings about Katrina and was amazed at the people interviewed by the national news that stated they were staying and "going to ride out the storm".

I also posted on a couple of message boards with people in the path of Hurricane Katrina and they too had the same feeling about "riding out the storm". One or two did express concern about the levees.

It is easy to sit here and say we are appalled, but I think we need to look at the overall picture.

I found this article The Deadly Choices at Memorial
http://www.propublica.org/feature/the-deadly-choices-at-memorial-826/P1

IMO, it gives some insight to the events at the hospital.

[cantstandnuts]

I do not blame this woman for the decision she made. I mean really, what else would you have her do?

They needed help from the government and we all know how long that took. A travesty. Should never have taken that long to get aid there.

This woman and those like her are not to blame. Our government was.

[magythekat]

I concur. :thumbup:


And it's so much easier to blame Bush than to place it where it belongs on the Dem's that were running the show in New Orleans and the rest of LA. I will always remember the shot of all of those buses setting in a parking lot with water up to their doors...many could have been evacuated in those....it's time the blame was placed where it belongs...but a good Dem will never do that.

[magythekat]

I do not blame this woman for the decision she made. I mean really, what else would you have her do?

They needed help from the government and we all know how long that took. A travesty. Should never have taken that long to get aid there.

This woman and those like her are not to blame. Our government was.

Au Contrair ...LA's gov was to blame for diverting the money they were giving to shore the dikes up....corruption at it's best. It was the dikes at fault for all the flooding, not the Hurricane .

[desmom]

And it's so much easier to blame Bush than to place it where it belongs on the Dem's that were running the show in New Orleans and the rest of LA. I will always remember the shot of all of those buses setting in a parking lot with water up to their doors...many could have been evacuated in those....it's time the blame was placed where it belongs...but a good Dem will never do that.

Question for anyone that can answer: Why when things go bad or not to one's liking, it is blamed on the "Dems" or the "Repubs" or the "Liberals" as a whole and not on the individual?

I followed the storms progress on the Weather channel and national news channels. I realize some people were not able to leave, but there were quite a few I saw interviewed on national news that said "they were staying to ride out the storm". Why is that the government's fault these people did not leave?

IMO, the mandatory evacuation should have been issued sooner and the state's emergency plan was not followed.

[cantstandnuts]

Au Contrair ...LA's gov was to blame for diverting the money they were giving to shore the dikes up....corruption at it's best. It was the dikes at fault for all the flooding, not the Hurricane .


Once they were in that mess, regardless of who started it, there should have been immediate aid by our government and there wasn't. So, YES I do blame the failure of the president to act swiftly as well as the L.A governor who got the ball rolling.

Celebrities were there in their boats before the president sent any help at all, fgs. Disgusting.

[cantstandnuts]

Question for anyone that can answer: Why when things go bad or not to one's liking, it is blamed on the "Dems" or the "Repubs" or the "Liberals" as a whole and not on the individual?

I followed the storms progress on the Weather channel and national news channels. I realize some people were not able to leave, but there were quite a few I saw interviewed on national news that said "they were staying to ride out the storm". Why is that the government's fault these people did not leave?

IMO, the mandatory evacuation should have been issued sooner and the state's emergency plan was not followed.

It isn't the fault of the Feds that people didn't leave, it's the fault of the Feds that not even a bottle of water was provided to them for several days.

[magythekat]

And not the state? They had plenty of time to prepare. Fema doesn't rescue. Local - state - Feds. in that order. Nagin fled the city. In Florida, I've never heard of any mayor leaving town in the face of a hurricane. We know how important your political points are to you - never let a natural disaster go to waste.

Right on Nagin...he hightailed it to Houston. He REALLY cared about his city and the folks that lived there...sheeeesh. And also, the Feds don't or can't go in until the governer asks them to, and she was a few days late on doing so. So there is enough blame to go around...I think many people have forgotten all of the details of that time, the why's and wherefores. Also if I recall correctly, the dikes didn't give the first day or even two after Katrina was long gone from the area.

[Details]

Did you read the entire article? Please read all the details about what went into the decision about this woman and why. Do you realize they are dealing with a 350 lb woman in a comatose state due to the meds to keep her comfortable - for the day or so she was expected to live. There was no hope for her and they could not move her. There were 4 nurses taking care of her - who were badly needed elsewhere.
How would you feel if your (alive and alert) loved one needed care but the staff who could help was tied up with a comatose terminal case? Then you would REALLY be mad and want the doctor punished, wouldn't you?
Please read the entire article and see exactly what was going on and what kinds of crucial decisions the medical staff have to make. The staff made lots of mistakes under the pressure of that time - but that decision with that particular patient was absolutely the correct one..... which is why that doctor will not face punishment.
I'm concerned that come future disasters most of the medical staff will just abandon hospitals and nursing homes - rather than face the lawsuits and judgments that will be thrown at them if they stay to help and make these tough decisions.

If you think that somone else should die (or even just writhe in pain) so that this poor patient could sleep comfortably thru another day or two then we'll just have to agree to disagree.It's never an easy choice - but doctors are trained in triage. And that is exactly what triage sometimes means - giving up on a hopeless case to help those who can be helped. 4 nurses - when they were so short staffed, when they were having to pump and operate life supporting machinery by hand, making them even more short staffed, when there was seemingly little or no help coming - they had to triage. Decide where to put their efforts to save the maximum number of lives. Spending 4 nurses on someone who will die no matter what is a bad use of resources. Yes, and that applies even if that is my mother, daughter, or myself.

[ABC]

Right on Nagin...he hightailed it to Houston. He REALLY cared about his city and the folks that lived there...sheeeesh. And also, the Feds don't or can't go in until the governer asks them to, and she was a few days late on doing so. So there is enough blame to go around...I think many people have forgotten all of the details of that time, the why's and wherefores. Also if I recall correctly, the dikes didn't give the first day or even two after Katrina was long gone from the area.

Actually, the Levees gave out the morning after the passing of the Hurricane and thats when the school buses went under water. Remember the brief sigh of relief when the City was spared from the Hurricane but then water started pouring into the streets. Sadly, Nagin did not send the buses around to provide those in their houses transportation out of the city. He did not know those folk were in their houses either but as a minimal safety precaution, he should have sent the buses around. Had he went them, I think folks would have left. Both the Mayor and Governor knew that thousands were in the Super Dome.
Yes, the Governor was late in asking for assistance or in giving assistance to those in their houses or Super Dome. It was unrealistic to believe that help would be there is a day but four was too long including calling in the Guard. Yes, there is enough blame to go around but in my opinion, the Mayor and Governor share the most blame. Governor Jindal followed the Florida Jeb Bush plan in evacuating the area of the last huge hurricane warning.

[openminded]

I agree theal3. When I was an EMT many moons ago, we had numerous trainings on disaster triage. IMO, from what I have read, the medical personnel were in that position.

Katrina was a horrible situation and it was very bad at Charity Hospital.

As I recall, some patients had to be "bagged" by hand. How many days can medical personnel keep that up? Should they just have let those patients slowly suffocate or was it better to ease their way out with drugs?

Those were difficult days and difficult choices for many medical personnel caught in the Katrina nightmare.

[cantstandnuts]

And not the state? They had plenty of time to prepare. Fema doesn't rescue. Local - state - Feds. in that order. Nagin fled the city. In Florida, I've never heard of any mayor leaving town in the face of a hurricane. We know how important your political points are to you - never let a natural disaster go to waste.

I blame the mayor, the state and the Feds. When the state failed to act quickly, the Fed also failed to act quickly. There is plenty of blame to go around for what happened during Katrina. The mayor is a coward. Still, the Feds being last should have acted quicker than they did. They had the resources and didn't do anything until the damage had already been done. So, I blame them.

[orangetaffy]

It's never an easy choice - but doctors are trained in triage. And that is exactly what triage sometimes means - giving up on a hopeless case to help those who can be helped. 4 nurses - when they were so short staffed, when they were having to pump and operate life supporting machinery by hand, making them even more short staffed, when there was seemingly little or no help coming - they had to triage. Decide where to put their efforts to save the maximum number of lives. Spending 4 nurses on someone who will die no matter what is a bad use of resources. Yes, and that applies even if that is my mother, daughter, or myself.

Triage should determine the order in which treatement is given. In this case, a lethal dose of medication was deliberately administered to the patient to hasten her death. That isnt triage, IMO.

1 a : the sorting of and allocation of treatment to patients and especially battle and disaster victims according to a system of priorities designed to maximize the number of survivors b : the sorting of patients (as in an emergency room) according to the urgency of their need for care

[magythekat]

Actually, the Levees gave out the morning after the passing of the Hurricane and thats when the school buses went under water. Remember the brief sigh of relief when the City was spared from the Hurricane but then water started pouring into the streets. Sadly, Nagin did not send the buses around to provide those in their houses transportation out of the city. He did not know those folk were in their houses either but as a minimal safety precaution, he should have sent the buses around. Had he went them, I think folks would have left. Both the Mayor and Governor knew that thousands were in the Super Dome.
Yes, the Governor was late in asking for assistance or in giving assistance to those in their houses or Super Dome. It was unrealistic to believe that help would be there is a day but four was too long including calling in the Guard. Yes, there is enough blame to go around but in my opinion, the Mayor and Governor share the most blame. Governor Jindal followed the Florida Jeb Bush plan in evacuating the area of the last huge hurricane warning.

Thanks for the specifics on the failure of the dikes, I wasn't sure.
I totally agree with you on the whole story, you have it down pat for sure. :smile:

[aproudmom]

I have no idea how to feel I still remember seeing people dying on highways and people on their roofs I just do not know what to say...

[aproudmom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/magazine/30doctors.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=katrina&st=cse

The smell of death was overpowering the moment a relief worker cracked open one of the hospital chapel’s wooden doors. Inside, more than a dozen bodies lay motionless on low cots and on the ground, shrouded in white sheets. Here, a wisp of gray hair peeked out. There, a knee was flung akimbo. A pallid hand reached across a blue gown

[StarShine]

The Feds made mistakes, no question about it. But the inept behavior on the part of Governor Blanco, and especially Mayor Ray Nagin, started that ball rolling. Had money for the levee system not been diverted into other project and into pockets for years, the levees may not have breached. Had that irresponsible Nagin insisted on a mandatory evacuation, provided those buses that sat in water to assist them out, made many more responsible decisions, a lot of what we saw after the levees broke wouldn't have happened. The crisis of government started while Katrina was still way out in the Gulf.

Years later I totally agree.