8/29. 8/30

[?WudScoobyDo]

Here it is...the daily thread.

And of course.. I meant 8-29-09 because its not September yet.

[Firehead11]

Here it is...the daily thread.

And of course.. I meant 8-29-09 because its not September yet.

I thought you were getting ahead of yourself.

:laugh:

[daniel green]

I have been writing 9/whatever all weel, too. Maybe because I always think of back to school in Spt.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I brought this over from the Links Only thread. I didn't want to get into trouble answering it there.

ABC
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,217

Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
Me too.

I think the LAPD's main investigation will be centered around the homicide and Murray and the AG will investigate all other doctors throughout the years.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Breeze, why has Dr Murray not been arrested if he is quilty.
What ever happened to the Anna Nicole Doc's that Jerry was hounding? Of course, Jerry is investigating all other Doctors. I thought the AG was to prosecute Criminals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can and have posted opinions about Murray, but he is not guilty in the eyes of the law, until he is brought to trial and only after a jury decides he's guilty. Unless of course he pleads guilty. He is entitled to a fair trial like any other defendant, which he isn't even that yet, although many of us believe he should and will be.

According to the state Constitution and the California Government Code, the Attorney General:

As the state’s chief law officer, ensures that the laws of the state are uniformly and adequately enforced.

Heads the Department of Justice, which is responsible for providing state legal services and support for local law enforcement.

Acts as the chief counsel in state litigation.

Oversees law enforcement agencies, including District Attorneys and Sheriffs.

I think the Anna Nicole doc and HKS are awaiting trial.

I have full faith in AG Brown, as he has always served the State of California well, in whatever capacity for which he was elected.

imo...of course.

[retiredcop]

Looks like most everyone is waiting to post on this thread until 9/29.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Cindylee]

Looks like most everyone is waiting to post on this thread until 9/29.
:laugh::laugh:

:lol:........

[GentleBreeze]

ABC, I don't think we are supposed to put an opinion post on the links thread so I am bringing it over here.

08-29-2009, 03:41 PM
ABC
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,217

Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
Me too.

I think the LAPD's main investigation will be centered around the homicide and Murray and the AG will investigate all other doctors throughout the years.

Breeze, why has Dr Murray not been arrested if he is quilty.
What ever happened to the Anna Nicole Doc's that Jerry was hounding? Of course, Jerry is investigating all other Doctors. I thought the AG was to prosecute Criminals. END of QUOTE

ABC, because he hasn't been arrested certainly doesn't mean he won't be. We have seen cases right here on this board where LE took their time before they arrested the suspect even though LE had them in the cross hairs from the get go.

I believe those two doctors in ANSs case are going to trial. I haven't heard anything to the contrary.

Doctors who prescribe drugs to a known addict are criminals so I am not sure what you mean.

imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

Looks like most everyone is waiting to post on this thread until 9/29.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Maybe its one of those rare days where we see American's behaving nicely.

[legalmania]

Looks like most everyone is waiting to post on this thread until 9/29.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'm not waiting I'll start now. Well thank goodness autumn has finally arrived. It has been one hot summer. I'm glad Michael is in his final resting place. His kids are getting so big. Time is just flying by.

[Cindylee]

I'm not waiting I'll start now. Well thank goodness autumn has finally arrived. It has been one hot summer. I'm glad Michael is in his final resting place. His kids are getting so big. Time is just flying by.

Where is MJ's final resting place? Did I miss something? Like a funeral???:confused:

[?WudScoobyDo]

I'm not waiting I'll start now. Well thank goodness autumn has finally arrived. It has been one hot summer. I'm glad Michael is in his final resting place. His kids are getting so big. Time is just flying by.

Are you kidding? It's like a thousand degrees in so cal.

[Cindylee]

Are you kidding? It's like a thousand degrees in so cal.

Yes, it is. I am roasting.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Where is MJ's final resting place? Did I miss something? Like a funeral???:confused:

Did you really miss the *memorial*? His interment won't be for public viewing, so really we can't be sure where his body lies at this point.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Yes, it is. I am roasting.

I always think the fires make it even hotter. I'd like to be at Arrowhead right now in the shade.

[Cindylee]

Did you really miss the *memorial*? His interment won't be for public viewing, so really we can't be sure where his body lies at this point.

Well, last I heard it was in a freezer at Forest Lawn, and that the funeral was going to be in Sept. I don't remember the date.

[GentleBreeze]

Did you really miss the *memorial*? His interment won't be for public viewing, so really we can't be sure where his body lies at this point.

His internment or entombment is supposed to be next Thursday, isn't it?

imo

[Cindylee]

His internment or entombment is supposed to be next Thursday, isn't it?

imo

Yes, Sept. 3rd.


Michael Jackson’s Funeral Pushed to September 3rd

8/21/09, 1:30 pm EST

Photo: Ralston/AFP/Getty

Michael Jackson’s burial at Glendale, California’s Forest Lawn Memorial Park has been pushed back to September 3rd, the Jackson family announced in a statement today. The family originally planned for Jackson to be laid to rest on August 29th, the day that would have marked Michael’s 51st birthday. As Rock Daily previously reported, the funeral will take place at Forest Lawn’s the Great Mausoleum for family members and close friends.

Michael’s father Joe Jackson had hinted to TMZ that the funeral would be delayed until August 31st, but as that day marks the first day of school in that area of California, the burial was pushed to September 3rd. As the Jackson family previously said in a statement, they “wish to express its gratitude to Michael’s fans around the world for their support during these difficult times.”

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/21/michael-jacksons-funeral-pushed-to-september-3rd/

[?WudScoobyDo]

Well, last I heard it was in a freezer at Forest Lawn, and that the funeral was going to be in Sept. I don't remember the date.


In my mind it already is the end of September. :smile:

[Cindylee]

In my mind it already is the end of September. :smile:

You wish. :laugh:

[Cindylee]

Katherine finally buried Michael? I musta missed that.............or not.

I think.....or not.

[Xenam]

None of us know what their reasons were for delaying burial and personally who am I to judge? If the Jacksons never want to bury MJ it is their prerogative. A body is just the shell anyway. JMO :shrug:

Have a good night all - listening to Earth Song right now. :)

[Unperson1984]

Here it is...the daily thread.

And of course.. I meant 8-29-09 because its not September yet.

Good Grief...for a moment I thought I'd missed my trip to Vegas.

:wink:

[Cindylee]

Good Grief...for a moment I thought I'd missed my trip to Vegas.

:wink:

:lol:..............

[daniel green]

Looks like most everyone is waiting to post on this thread until 9/29.
snipped

There is just nothing to post or discuss. Absolutely no news or anything of note.

[Unperson1984]

Yes, Sept. 3rd.


Michael Jackson’s Funeral Pushed to September 3rd

8/21/09, 1:30 pm EST

Photo: Ralston/AFP/Getty

Michael Jackson’s burial at Glendale, California’s Forest Lawn Memorial Park has been pushed back to September 3rd, the Jackson family announced in a statement today. The family originally planned for Jackson to be laid to rest on August 29th, the day that would have marked Michael’s 51st birthday. As Rock Daily previously reported, the funeral will take place at Forest Lawn’s the Great Mausoleum for family members and close friends.

Michael’s father Joe Jackson had hinted to TMZ that the funeral would be delayed until August 31st, but as that day marks the first day of school in that area of California, the burial was pushed to September 3rd. As the Jackson family previously said in a statement, they “wish to express its gratitude to Michael’s fans around the world for their support during these difficult times.”

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/21/michael-jacksons-funeral-pushed-to-september-3rd/

I suppose they could have issued misleading statements to keep the fans away, but it would be very difficult to lock down Forest Lawn on a Saturday.

[tiptop]

Looks like most everyone is waiting to post on this thread until 9/29.
:laugh::laugh::stolen:

Nah. Folks arent sufficiently lubricated yet on this Saturday night. :wink:

[GentleBreeze]

None of us know what their reasons were for delaying burial and personally who am I to judge? If the Jacksons never want to bury MJ it is their prerogative. A body is just the shell anyway. JMO :shrug:

Have a good night all - listening to Earth Song right now. :)

It is really none of my business. He certainly isn't deteriorating since he has been constantly in a refrigerated holding area.

My hubby and I own crypts and after our death, once entombed they do have climate control inside of the crypt and also a system to withdraw any moisture.

So to me there wont be that much difference in where he is being held now and where he will finally be entombed.

I have to say though Forest Lawn is exquisite and especially this section. He certainly is being buried in one of the most well known elite cemetaries.

imo

[Cindylee]

It is really none of my business. He certainly isn't deteriorating since he has been constantly in a refrigerated holding area.

My hubby and I own crypts and after our death, once entombed they do have climate control inside of the crypt and also a system to withdraw any moisture.

So to me there wont be that much difference in where he is being held now and where he will finally be entombed.

I have to say though Forest Lawn is exquisite and especially this section. He certainly is being buried in one of the most well known elite cemetaries.

imo

I sure remember the hoots and hollers about ANS when her mother wanted to bury her in the United States. Guess that freezer was different.

[Unperson1984]

Our business or not, his children need closure. Until the ceremonies that surround the loss of a loved one are completed, there is no way to really move forward.

IMO

[tiptop]

I sure remember the hoots and hollers about ANS when her mother wanted to bury her in the United States. Guess that freezer was different.

Easy for me to say I suppose, but the vessel matters not. MJ is gone but his shell remains. And there will always be fights and court battles and the whereto's and all the other formal estate talk. None of it really matters to his soul. I hope he can rest in peace now since it seems like he couldnt rest in life.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Our business or not, his children need closure. Until the ceremonies that surround the loss of a loved one are completed, there is no way to really move forward.

IMO


Unperson...hi.. do you think they will ever truly get that closure?

[GentleBreeze]

I sure remember the hoots and hollers about ANS when her mother wanted to bury her in the United States. Guess that freezer was different.

When was Anna embalmed though? I thought that was some sort of issue but may have remembered it wrong.

I don't know what refrigeration they used from what I remember she was kept in Dr. Perper's ME office.

imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

There is just nothing to post or discuss. Absolutely no news or anything of note.


Or maybe.. you are exhausted from crying all day. :wink:

[daniel green]

I was just watching this wk's InfoMania on Currnt TV, and it appears that the fact that MJ is not buried is the tabloid cover fodder for the last few weeks.

They really should have laid MJ to rest weeks and weeks ago.

[daniel green]

Or maybe.. you are exhausted from crying all day. :wink:

Huh? :confused: I went to dinner and a movie.

[GentleBreeze]

Our business or not, his children need closure. Until the ceremonies that surround the loss of a loved one are completed, there is no way to really move forward.

IMO

Closure will come at their own pace. Just burying him does not magically give them closure like slapping the lid closed on all the love and emotions they feel for him.

I think they will visit often and will draw comfort that they are close to where his body rests in peace.

imo

[Unperson1984]

Unperson...hi.. do you think they will ever truly get that closure?

I don't know, but as long as his burial is in their future they can't begin their healing.

Burial signifies the end and with an end comes a new beginning...it's long past time. IMO

[?WudScoobyDo]

When was Anna embalmed though? I thought that was some sort of issue but may have remembered it wrong.

I don't know what refrigeration they used from what I remember she was kept in Dr. Perper's ME office.

imo

Yes, Dr. Perper called the Judge during court and told him Anna was soon going to be unpresentable for a viewing.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I don't know, but as long as his burial is in their future they can't begin their healing.

Burial signifies the end and with an end comes a new beginning...it's long past time. IMO


Hopefully the paparazzi wount hound them they way they did their father. I have my doubts though.

[Cindylee]

When was Anna embalmed though? I thought that was some sort of issue but may have remembered it wrong.

I don't know what refrigeration they used from what I remember she was kept in Dr. Perper's ME office.

imoShe had been embalmed and was in the freezer at the coroners. A freezer is a freezer. IMO

[daniel green]

I don't know, but as long as his burial is in their future they can't begin their healing.

Burial signifies the end and with an end comes a new beginning...it's long past time. IMO

It does, indeed, Unperson.

[daniel green]

She had been embalmed and was in the freezer at the coroners. A freezer is a freezer. IMO

Oh, how awful. How long was it before she was buried?

[Unperson1984]

Hopefully the paparazzi wount hound them they way they did their father. I have my doubts though.

I think that will depend on what direction they go in life. If they chose to have private lives and stay out of show business the media will lose interest. If they chose entertainment, the media is part and parcel of the business.

There is a Forbes special about MJ's finances on E tonight, 10:00 PDT.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Oh, how awful. How long was it before she was buried?


Until her mom could find just the right shoes to stomp on her grave.

[Cindylee]

Oh, how awful. How long was it before she was buried? She was embalmed a week after her death, and buried a month later.

[Cindylee]

Until her mom could find just the right shoes to stomp on her grave.
And the Jackson's reasons are??

[GentleBreeze]

Unperson...hi.. do you think they will ever truly get that closure?

I am not uni but I don't. I don't believe in closure. That infers they just slam the door and go on with their lives and never think about their loved one again. Close what? That they love him or miss him or long for his comfort, or lost him unnecessarily? How can they close that when it has become a part of their life?

I lost my grandfather when I was 19 years old and to this day I cry that he is not here to share all the things we would have loved for him to be a part of...

They will always long for the father they lost. I truly believe they loved him more than anyone on earth. So to be able to deal with it wont happen just because he is buried. It may take them years and years to overcome and they may never get over their loss fully.

Poor Blanket didn't even understand the memorial service for his father. He thought his father had gone on a holiday.

So sad and they shouldn't have been robbed of the father they had and wanted. Dealing with that is what will be most difficult to accept imo. Knowing someone else took him away.:sad:

imo

[tiptop]

And the Jackson's reasons are??

Yeah, this is laying the groundwork for a money situation. Or so it appears........

[daniel green]

She was embalmed a week after her death, and buried a month later.

Thank you. How awful.

There is good reason why every culture, every people and every religion has matter of fact traditions and/or religious customs when it comes to the death of a loved one.

[Cindylee]

I am not uni but I don't. I don't believe in closure. That infers they just slam the door and go on with their lives and never think about their loved one again. Close what? That they love him or miss him or long for his comfort, or lost him unnecessarily? How can they close that when it has become a part of their life?

I lost my grandfather when I was 19 years old and to this day I cry that he is not here to share all the things we would have loved for him to be a part of...

They will always long for the father they lost. I truly believe they loved him more than anyone on earth. So to be able to deal with it wont happen just because he is buried. It may take them years and years to overcome and they may never get over their loss fully.

Poor Blanket didn't even understand the memorial service for his father. He thought his father had gone on a holiday.

So sad and they shouldn't have been robbed of the father they had and wanted. Dealing with that is what will be most difficult to accept imo. Knowing someone else took him away.:sad:

imo

It is really sad that their father didn't think enough of his children to get clean.

[daniel green]

I am not uni but I don't. I don't believe in closure. That infers they just slam the door and go on with their lives and never think about their loved one again. Close what? That they love him or miss him or long for his comfort, or lost him unnecessarily? How can they close that when it has become a part of their life?

snipped

The closure of a burial or cremation is a very real thing, the effect it has on loved ones. I cannot help but think that the family of Sen Kennedy, may he RIP, was enriched and moved to closure by the memorial service and burial.

[Cindylee]

Yeah, this is laying the groundwork for a money situation. Or so it appears........

Well, I don't know, seems so to me. At least next week will see him buried.

[tiptop]

It is really sad that their father didn't think enough of his children to get clean.

This is my line of thinking too.

I suspect MJ thought he did not have a problem. Or perhaps he didnt think about it at all. He thought about the quality time he spent with the kids and figured that was enough. I understand about addiction and dont need a lecture about that. I think when he was with the kids, it was all about them. But he still had needs that were not met and they seemed to consume him. And they were apparently stronger than the pull from the kids. Very sad......

[GentleBreeze]

She had been embalmed and was in the freezer at the coroners. A freezer is a freezer. IMO

I remember that embalming didn't happen right away and everyday that goes by the body deteriorates before the embalming is even done. A week is a very very long time when the body starts to breakdown early on. Even the embalming fluid does not do as well the longer they wait.

I beg to differ. There are many refrigerations chambers and they are not all the same and Dr. Perper said every time he pulled ANS out of the chamber the worse it was.

So it is not the same situation here.

People have been buried for 30 years or more and then exhumed. Even after those years they were in very good shape.

I cant remember which civil rights leader was murdered but when they exhumed his body, his son, who was a young child when his father was shot, stood by his coffin and I have seen photos of his body. He was in good shape especially for being in the ground for 30 years or more.

imo

[Unperson1984]

I am not uni but I don't. I don't believe in closure. That infers they just slam the door and go on with their lives and never think about their loved one again. Close what? That they love him or miss him or long for his comfort, or lost him unnecessarily? How can they close that when it has become a part of their life?


imo

It means no such thing, it means you move on to a different level of grief. In no way is the love of the lost loved one diminished.

Speaking for myself, I go through immediate and deep painful grief when I've lost a loved one. After the societal ceremonies I tried to avoid things that would make me think about that person because I knew it would bring the pain and tears back, but slowly I would find that I could deal with the memories and be comforted by them.

That's what I mean by closure, closing the door on memories bringing pain and moving on to memories bringing comfort and peace.

[Cindylee]

I remember that embalming didn't happen right away and everyday that goes by the body deteriorates before the embalming is even done. A week is a very very long time when the body starts to breakdown early on. Even the embalming fluid does not do as well the longer they wait.

I beg to differ. There are many refrigerations chambers and they are not all the same and Dr. Perper said every time he pulled ANS out of the chamber the worse it was.

So it is not the same situation here.

People have been buried for 30 years or more and then exhumed. Even after those years they were in very good shape.

I cant remember which civil rights leader was murdered but when they exhumed his body, his son, who was a young child when his father was shot, stood by his coffin and I have seen photos of his body. He was in good shape especially for being in the ground for 30 years or more.

imo

Ok, leave him in the freezer. If it were my dad, I would have a problem with that, but that is just me.

[GentleBreeze]

The closure of a burial or cremation is a very real thing, the effect it has on loved ones. I cannot help but think that the family of Sen Kennedy, may he RIP, was enriched and moved to closure by the memorial service and burial.

That death was not unexpected.

All of them had prepared for this day including Kennedy before it even happened.

This children had no time to prepare. Their daddy was there with them one day and then the next day he was gone from them forever.

I have never seen a child have closure the day their parents are buried.
Unless they are adult children and knew the death was coming due to a terrible disease such as cancer.

[Cindylee]

It means no such thing, it means you move on to a different level of grief. In no way is the love of the lost loved one diminished.

Speaking for myself, I go through immediate and deep painful grief when I've lost a loved one. After the societal ceremonies I tried to avoid things that would make me think about that person because I knew it would bring the pain and tears back, but slowly I would find that I could deal with the memories and be comforted by them.

That's what I mean by closure, closing the door on memories bringing pain and moving on to memories bringing comfort and peace.

It has been the same for me. Well put.

[Cindylee]

That death was not unexpected.

All of them had prepared for this day including Kennedy before it even happened.

This children had no time to prepare. Their daddy was there with them one day and then the next day he was gone from them forever.

I have never seen a child have closure the day their parents are buried.
Unless they are adult children and knew the death was coming due to a terrible disease such as cancer.

No one said they would have closure on the day he was buried. It would help with the closure.

[tiptop]

It means no such thing, it means you move on to a different level of grief. In no way is the love of the lost loved one diminished.

Speaking for myself, I go through immediate and deep painful grief when I've lost a loved one. After the societal ceremonies I tried to avoid things that would make me think about that person because I knew it would bring the pain and tears back, but slowly I would find that I could deal with the memories and be comforted by them.

That's what I mean by closure, closing the door on memories bringing pain and moving on to memories bringing comfort and peace.

Indeed. And none of us here can imagine what the kids will be going through.

Their lives are forever changed. I hope they can continue to live with love and as they were accustomed to. But I suspect they will survive no matter what. I hate to say it like this, but IMO the dysfunction they knew before MJ's death may not be so different afterwards. This is one time when I dont mind saying a common, moderate lifestyle for a child is probably a wonderful thing compared to the life of Michael's kids. Money and privilege arent everything.

[GentleBreeze]

It is really sad that their father didn't think enough of his children to get clean.

It isnt that simplistic if so there wouldn't be millions of people in our society addicted to illegal and prescription drugs. And the cure rate would be 100% instead of the low success rate it is today.

This disease has to be the worst monster to fight. If not we would have more addicts able to break the control of the disease that grips their very existence.

What is sad is licensed drug pushers using the vulnerability of the addiction and never tries to help the addict but keeps on gorging them with drugs for the almighty dollar.

[GentleBreeze]

No one said they would have closure on the day he was buried. It would help with the closure.

I dont see how.

imo

[Unperson1984]

It isnt that simplistic if so there wouldn't be millions of people in our society addicted to illegal and prescription drugs. And the cure rate would be 100% instead of the low success rate it is today.

This disease has to be the worst monster to fight. If not we would have more addicts able to break the control of the disease that grips their very existence.

What is sad is licensed drug pushers using the vulnerability of the addiction and never tries to help the addict but keeps on gorging them with drugs for the almighty dollar.

The addicts aren't blameless. MJ had enough money to get the very best help with his problem. He chose to continue using drugs, while at the same time buying three beautiful children.

IMO

[tiptop]

The addicts aren't blameless. MJ had enough money to get the very best help with his problem. He chose to continue using drugs, while at the same time buying three beautiful children.

IMO

Yep. And its my understanding he left rehab early when Liz Taylor put him there in Europe.

[tiptop]

The addicts aren't blameless. MJ had enough money to get the very best help with his problem. He chose to continue using drugs, while at the same time buying three beautiful children.

IMO

Let me add that I dont think of every surrogate as "buying" and as a bad connotation. Some women/couples cant have kids. And I think if it had been anyone but Mike there would be no question. If he lived up to his agreement with the surrogate, then it was a business deal like anyone else could have. And it doesnt take away from the love and commitment one could feel for the children.

[Poochie Pie]

This is my line of thinking too.

I suspect MJ thought he did not have a problem. Or perhaps he didnt think about it at all. He thought about the quality time he spent with the kids and figured that was enough. I understand about addiction and dont need a lecture about that. I think when he was with the kids, it was all about them. But he still had needs that were not met and they seemed to consume him. And they were apparently stronger than the pull from the kids. Very sad...... Oh my... what a fair and humane post, tiptop.... I realize that some see it as "he didn't care enough about his children", but as you said... his needs seemed to consume him and they were apparently stronger than the pull from the kids... Which is the ugly nature of addiction... indeed sad..

Poochie

[Unperson1984]

Let me add that I dont think of every surrogate as "buying" and as a bad connotation. Some women/couples cant have kids. And I think if it had been anyone but Mike there would be no question. If he lived up to his agreement with the surrogate, then it was a business deal like anyone else could have. And it doesnt take away from the love and commitment one could feel for the children.

Perhaps he should have overcome his addiction before he brought children into his life. I believe the majority of people using surrogates are ready to make the serious commitment of being a parent, MJ wasn’t willing to make a true commitment.

I believe he loved the children and don't doubt that they loved him, but love alone doesn't make a person a good parent.

IMO

[tiptop]

Perhaps he should have overcome his addiction before he brought children into his life. I believe the majority of people using surrogates are ready to make the serious commitment of being a parent, MJ wasn’t willing to make a true commitment.

I believe he loved the children and don't doubt that they loved him, but love alone doesn't make a person a good parent.

IMO

Arguable, of course. Plenty of regular folks have kids the old-fashioned way without being "prepared" for them. But I understand what you are saying.

[RootBeer]

Indeed. And none of us here can imagine what the kids will be going through.

Their lives are forever changed. I hope they can continue to live with love and as they were accustomed to. But I suspect they will survive no matter what. I hate to say it like this, but IMO the dysfunction they knew before MJ's death may not be so different afterwards. This is one time when I dont mind saying a common, moderate lifestyle for a child is probably a wonderful thing compared to the life of Michael's kids. Money and privilege arent everything.

I think MJ's kids are going to really enjoy a more regular life where they can join sports or cheerleading and other kid stuff.

[tiptop]

I think MJ's kids are going to really enjoy a more regular life where they can join sports or cheerleading and other kid stuff.

But do you think that is going to happen?

[?WudScoobyDo]

Perhaps he should have overcome his addiction before he brought children into his life. I believe the majority of people using surrogates are ready to make the serious commitment of being a parent, MJ wasn’t willing to make a true commitment.

I believe he loved the children and don't doubt that they loved him, but love alone doesn't make a person a good parent.

IMO


Maybe he did get clean when he had children and the trauma and stress of facing 20 years in prison, for horrible crimes in which he was innocent, caused him to relapse. You could see his declining heath over the course of those months, and it is reported he suffered serious depression afterwards. People get medication for depression to help them, not hurt them. I still believe he was a better Dad, than a lot of "normal" dads.

imo...of course.

[daniel green]

The addicts aren't blameless. MJ had enough money to get the very best help with his problem. He chose to continue using drugs, while at the same time buying three beautiful children.

IMO

And that is the tragedy. That those three children have had to endure all this.

[daniel green]

Perhaps he should have overcome his addiction before he brought children into his life. I believe the majority of people using surrogates are ready to make the serious commitment of being a parent, MJ wasn’t willing to make a true commitment.

I believe he loved the children and don't doubt that they loved him, but love alone doesn't make a person a good parent.

IMO

People who are using surrogacy as a way to have children or who adopt children must face rigorous screening--financial, medical, psychological, etc. And with good reason.

[tiptop]

Maybe he did get clean when he had children and the trauma and stress of facing 20 years in prison, for horrible crimes in which he was innocent, caused him to relapse. You could see his declining heath over the course of those months, and it is reported he suffered serious depression afterwards. People get medication for depression to help them, not hurt them. I still believe he was a better Dad, than a lot of "normal" dads.

imo...of course.

IMO..........it's really a shame Michael didnt do things the way most of us "see fit." He married Lisa Marie, but they had separate homes. After their divorce, he married Debbie Rowe and had kids with her but he bought her a separate house as well and didnt live with her as "man and wife."

In Michael's world, public perception was everything. He seemed to only see half of that equation IMO. He got married and thought that would ease his public tension. But the separate households only added to his woes. He seemed to always be off a tad in his public thinking and how the public would perceive him. And it worked against his image.

[?WudScoobyDo]

The addicts aren't blameless. MJ had enough money to get the very best help with his problem. He chose to continue using drugs, while at the same time buying three beautiful children.

IMO

He may have had the advantage of money, but even the best treatment couldn't fix part of the underlying problem. In the best of circumstances, its a difficult task to stop taking the drugs, but to be under the microscope of the world, the ridicule of the tabloid press, and inability to do anything without being surrounded by people and cameras seems like a recipe for rehab failure. And he needed a doctor who would manage his physical pain, as well as emotional pain competently and effectively, without killing him in the process.

imo...of course.

[?WudScoobyDo]

IMO..........it's really a shame Michael didnt do things the way most of us "see fit." He married Lisa Marie, but they had separate homes. After their divorce, he married Debbie Rowe and had kids with her but he bought her a separate house as well and didnt live with her as "man and wife."

In Michael's world, public perception was everything. He seemed to only see half of that equation IMO. He got married and thought that would ease his public tension. But the separate households only added to his woes. He seemed to always be off a tad in his public thinking and how the public would perceive him. And it worked against his image.


I saw an interview last night, and he was in his early 20's I'm guessing, and he said he was just learning how to have or be a friend, because he never had the opportunilty to do that before. The idea that he never had a day in his life to go to a buddy's house after school, or play sports, etc.. makes it seem logical that his perceptions might not be the same as ours, or what we expected of him.

[?WudScoobyDo]

And the Jackson's reasons are??

Logistics and safety.

[tiptop]

I saw an interview last night, and he was in his early 20's I'm guessing, and he said he was just learning how to have or be a friend, because he never had the opportunilty to do that before. The idea that he never had a day in his life to go to a buddy's house after school, or play sports, etc.. makes it seem logical that his perceptions might not be the same as ours, or what we expected of him.

I agree his perception would not be like yours or mine. But I would like to think Tatum O'Neil or Brooke Shields or Liz Taylor or Lisa Marie or Debbie Rowe could help him out of that, at least a little bit.

[Unperson1984]

Maybe he did get clean when he had children and the trauma and stress of facing 20 years in prison, for horrible crimes in which he was innocent, caused him to relapse. You could see his declining heath over the course of those months, and it is reported he suffered serious depression afterwards. People get medication for depression to help them, not hurt them. I still believe he was a better Dad, than a lot of "normal" dads.

imo...of course.

I don't believe that MJ was a bad or evil person, and I don't doubt that his intentions were good. But as the saying goes...the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I don't believe that MJ was a bad or evil person, and I don't doubt that his intentions were good. But as the saying goes...the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I don't think he took the road to hell, I think he took the highway to heaven.

[Unperson1984]

I saw an interview last night, and he was in his early 20's I'm guessing, and he said he was just learning how to have or be a friend, because he never had the opportunilty to do that before. The idea that he never had a day in his life to go to a buddy's house after school, or play sports, etc.. makes it seem logical that his perceptions might not be the same as ours, or what we expected of him.

Yet he was giving his children the same type of unnatural childhood, no school friends, no sports and lately a nomadic existence going from place to place with no stable home.

[Unperson1984]

I don't think he took the road to hell, I think he took the highway to heaven.

I didn't mean to imply he didn't go to Heaven, simply that good intentions alone aren't enough.

[tiptop]

I don't believe that MJ was a bad or evil person, and I don't doubt that his intentions were good. But as the saying goes...the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.


Same here. I dont think he was a bad guy. But I do think his intentions were geared more toward Michael though. I think he thought good things when it came to the kids, but never gave a whim to possibly being shot dead during the night with diprivan and ativan and other stuff. He needed to sleep and I think he probably trusted his doctors. Even though the trust level was off the charts.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Yet he was giving his children the same type of unnatural childhood, no school friends, no sports and lately a nomadic existence going from place to place with no stable home.

I don't see how he could have sent the kids to school without revealing their identity, opening up the opportunity for the press to rip them apart too. He had a home, Neverland. He had to leave this country, because of the visciousness of the people in it.

[daniel green]

Yet he was giving his children the same type of unnatural childhood, no school friends, no sports and lately a nomadic existence going from place to place with no stable home.

Which is horrible, I think.

Studies show the difficulties for children who grow up with addicted parents. But if one adds this to it, the isolation from anyone outside MJ and staff, no schools, not even a place to call home--it's heart breaking.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I didn't mean to imply he didn't go to Heaven, simply that good intentions alone aren't enough.

If good intentions were the key to solving the addiction problem, we wouldn't have the millions of people addicted to prescription drugs.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Which is horrible, I think.

Studies show the difficulties for children who grow up with addicted parents. But if one adds this to it, the isolation from anyone outside MJ and staff, no schools, not even a place to call home--it's heart breaking.


Today on tv, I heard a great deal of compassion for Patrick Kennedy, an addict. Why was MJ's addiction so different that he deserved ridicule and attack. instead of compassion, as it was expressed today?

[Unperson1984]

I don't see how he could have sent the kids to school without revealing their identity, opening up the opportunity for the press to rip them apart too. He had a home, Neverland. He had to leave this country, because of the visciousness of the people in it.

There are many schools which cater to the children of celebrities, especially in So Cal. Presidents manage to send their children to school, and so could have Michael Jackson.

[Xenam]

Just keep in mind this is a tabloid. If this really is anywhere near the truth of what is coming from Dr. Murray's defense -- I absolutely do not believe it for one second. JMO


Michael Jackson killed himself by accident, doctor to claim

Michael Jackson's doctor will claim that the star accidentally administered a fatal overdose of anaesthetic, it was reported on Sunday.


Ian Johnston
Published: 12:28AM BST 30 Aug 2009

Dr Conrad Murray has admitted he put the singing legend on a drip containing the drug Propofol but says he set it up to give 25 milligrams to help Jackson sleep.

The News of the World reported that his legal team will claim Jackson reset the machine controlling the drip, increasing the dosage which led to the heart attack that killed him.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6112586/Michael-Jackson-killed-himself-by-accident-doctor-to-claim.html

[tiptop]

Today on tv, I heard a great deal of compassion for Patrick Kennedy, an addict. Why was MJ's addiction so different that he deserved ridicule and attack. instead of compassion, as it was expressed today?

Because Michael is the celebrity du jour. He is the one with all the controversy. All the wonder.

I imagine it will pass. But for now it is all Michael. Until he is layed to rest and the public has a chance to move on to another. And yes, there will be another.......

[Unperson1984]

Today on tv, I heard a great deal of compassion for Patrick Kennedy, an addict. Why was MJ's addiction so different that he deserved ridicule and attack. instead of compassion, as it was expressed today?

Scooby you must admit that much of the ridicule and attack was the result of MJ's odd behavior and the choices he made.

[tiptop]

Scooby you must admit that much of the ridicule and attack was the result of MJ's odd behavior and the choices he made.

Interesting point...

From what I've read, Michael started this whole business of him being an "oddity." He allegedly planted the oxygen chamber story and also the story about him wanting to buy the bones of the Elephant Man.

If this is true, then when tabloids started inventing their own headlines --- well, yeah it's not right, but it seemed to go forward with Michael's profile. He started this mess then seemed to complain when the publicity didnt go his way.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Just keep in mind this is a tabloid. If this really is anywhere near the truth of what is coming from Dr. Murray's defense -- I absolutely do not believe it for one second. JMO


Michael Jackson killed himself by accident, doctor to claim

Michael Jackson's doctor will claim that the star accidentally administered a fatal overdose of anaesthetic, it was reported on Sunday.


Ian Johnston
Published: 12:28AM BST 30 Aug 2009

Dr Conrad Murray has admitted he put the singing legend on a drip containing the drug Propofol but says he set it up to give 25 milligrams to help Jackson sleep.

The News of the World reported that his legal team will claim Jackson reset the machine controlling the drip, increasing the dosage which led to the heart attack that killed him.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6112586/Michael-Jackson-killed-himself-by-accident-doctor-to-claim.html


I wonder if its taken him the whole two months to come up with a reason why it was a lethal dose. The won't find a reputable doctor to claims its even possible. Besides, considering the massive amounts of drugs pumped into him, I believe he was out cold long before. I don't believe he could have still been conscious to even ask for the dipivan, if its true that all the other drugs came first.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Interesting point...

From what I've read, Michael started this whole business of him being an "oddity." He allegedly planted the oxygen chamber story and also the story about him wanting to buy the bones of the Elephant Man.

If this is true, then when tabloids started inventing their own headlines --- well, yeah it's not right, but it seemed to go forward with Michael's profile. He started this mess then seemed to complain when the publicity didnt go his way.

Why wouldn't you think your first paragraph wasn't another tabloid invention? He never said it was, in fact, he did a video where he included those headlines, while singing leave me alone. Never in his life did he need more publicity. He was different, thats all. His life was in stark contrast to anybody's life. How could he possibly ever be normal to anyone that wasn't living his life?

[Cindylee]

Scooby you must admit that much of the ridicule and attack was the result of MJ's odd behavior and the choices he made.

I believe that was the case.

[Xenam]

I wonder if its taken him the whole two months to come up with a reason why it was a lethal dose. The won't find a reputable doctor to claims its even possible. Besides, considering the massive amounts of drugs pumped into him, I believe he was out cold long before. I don't believe he could have still been conscious to even ask for the dipivan, if its true that all the other drugs came first.

I don't know about the other drugs "knocking him out" but once that diprivan IV was started he would have been out and why isn't that in his original statement to LAPD? As I said before - I don't believe it for one second. Was listening to an anaesthesiologist (Dr. Marrone) discussing the Ativan and Diprivan and he said the two drugs NEVER, EVER are to be given together even in a hospital setting and he believes it was the combo that killed MJ. JMO

[Cindylee]

Why wouldn't you think your first paragraph wasn't another tabloid invention? He never said it was, in fact, he did a video where he included those headlines, while singing leave me alone. Never in his life did he need more publicity. He was different, thats all. His life was in stark contrast to anybody's life. How could he possibly ever be normal to anyone that wasn't living his life?

He said a lot of things. True or untrue, who knows.

[tiptop]

Why wouldn't you think your first paragraph wasn't another tabloid invention? He never said it was, in fact, he did a video where he included those headlines, while singing leave me alone. Never in his life did he need more publicity. He was different, thats all. His life was in stark contrast to anybody's life. How could he possibly ever be normal to anyone that wasn't living his life?

I believe he wanted the observance by the media. I have no trouble believing he invented these stories about the bones and oxygen chamber. I do think it backfired on him. He didnt think the tabloids would invent stuff, which they did. Many celebrities create publicity stunts for exposure. And IMO Michael was no different. But when it went beyond his comfort zone; well, then he panicked and became paranoid. And cried FOUL.

[Cindylee]

I believe he wanted the observance by the media. I have no trouble believing he invented these stories about the bones and oxygen chamber. I do think it backfired on him. He didnt think the tabloids would invent stuff, which they did. Many celebrities create publicity stunts for exposure. And IMO Michael was no different. But when it went beyond his comfort zone; well, then he panicked and became paranoid. And cried FOUL. And, a lot of what was reported and printed were his own statements or behavior that bordered on the bizarre. There are thousands of stars that are very famous who lead fairly normal lives. They aren't in the tabloids, or news.

[daniel green]

There are many schools which cater to the children of celebrities, especially in So Cal. Presidents manage to send their children to school, and so could have Michael Jackson.

No kidding. If the President of the US, and other presidents before him, manage to have their children in school, then there is absolutely no reason why someone whose last song was out in the early 90's not to be able to have his children in school.

[?WudScoobyDo]

------------------

MJ's underlying problem was he wanted his drugs over everything else. The rest of your post is all excuses for him. imo


Drugs are a response to the underlying problem, not the reverse.

[daniel green]

And, a lot of what was reported and printed were his own statements or behavior that bordered on the bizarre. snipped.

Over and over and over. The Martin Bashir (sp) documentary, case in point.

[?WudScoobyDo]

No kidding. If the President of the US, and other presidents before him, manage to have their children in school, then there is absolutely no reason why someone whose last song was out in the early 90's not to be able to have his children in school.


It was Michael's right to educate his children as he saw fit, and they did receive proper education. And you know you can't even substantiate his kids weren't educated . You chose how to educate your kids, he chose how to educate his kids. Its the USA, where we are allowed to do that.

[Cindylee]

Drugs are a response to the underlying problem, not the reverse.

There is no question that he had problems. But, again I believe he brought a lot, if not most of those problems on himself. Granted his dad was tough on his children, abusive, not MJ's fault. He had the Pepsi accident, again not his fault. A lot of people with a lot less in the way of resources, have over come much more.

[daniel green]

------------------

I can think of a few reasons. imo

You mean other than being a US Congressman and having chosen TREATMENT for his addiction instead of spending nights in drug-induced comas?

[?WudScoobyDo]

------------------

I can think of a few reasons. imo


Why bother telling us you can think of a few reasons, and then fail to post what those reasons are. Besides I was asking DG, but evidently, it is a post she won't respond to, and that is a rare event.

[daniel green]

How about that Congressman Kennedy has been a leading voice in Congress on mental health issues, working to require insurance companies to treat mental health on an equal basis with physical illnesses?

[?WudScoobyDo]

You mean other than being a US Congressman and having chosen TREATMENT for his addiction instead of spending nights in drug-induced comas?

And he has never had a relapse? How long after using drugs did he seek rehab? Wasn't there some incident that led to checking himself into rehab? It was evident today, the strenth of that family, and thats a big plus for battling addiction.

I think the only difference is that you like PK and dislike MJ.

[tiptop]

Over and over and over. The Martin Bashir (sp) documentary, case in point.

And lets assume this is true. That the Bashir docu is the end-all.

Michael had plenty of time to recover, Plenty of time to recant. Plenty of time to change his ways but he did not. He continued to proclaim to sleep with boys with his own justification.

OK - and this brings forth a debate. If he was innocent, why change his ways? I can somewhat understand paying off someone. Just because we are innocent does not mean a jury will see us as such. And why risk prison time when you can pay money and be done with it?

But I dont understand Michael continuing to claim he sleeps with youngsters after all this. Why would you do this? Innocent or ignorance? Even if I was innocent, I think I would cease and desist. But why didnt Mike? I am not judging ---- just always curious about this.

[daniel green]

I think the idea of comparing MJ to Congressman Kennedy is really totally and completely preposterous. On every level. And, no, I do not care for Congressman Kennedy.

[Cindylee]

O/T but I hope no one is near La Canada or Pasadena area. Been through some fires, scary. My thoughts are with all of those folks. At least it isn't windy.

[?WudScoobyDo]

How about that Congressman Kennedy has been a leading voice in Congress on mental health issues, working to require insurance companies to treat mental health on an equal basis with physical illnesses?

I appreciate that more than you could ever know. But he intended that for everybody, even MJ. Drug addiction has underlying problems, that were not addressed due to unethical doctors.

[Cindylee]

Goodnight good people.

Night Buzzzzzzz.

[Cindylee]

I appreciate that more than you could ever know. But he intended that for everybody, even MJ. Drug addiction has underlying problems, that were not addressed due to unethical doctors. True, it would have been great if someone could have talked him into getting help.

[?WudScoobyDo]

---------------

Becuase u know as well as i do that if i post the reasons, u would have your finger on the "report this post" button. And i do believe we are allowed to answer anyone's post. With this said...........you have a great nite. imo


I had faith in you to be able to post your reasons, in an unbannable way.

[Unperson1984]

Interesting point...

From what I've read, Michael started this whole business of him being an "oddity." He allegedly planted the oxygen chamber story and also the story about him wanting to buy the bones of the Elephant Man.

If this is true, then when tabloids started inventing their own headlines --- well, yeah it's not right, but it seemed to go forward with Michael's profile. He started this mess then seemed to complain when the publicity didnt go his way.

So many odd things, I remember when he use to carry Emmanual Lewis around everywhere, then it was his chimp. His ever changing face, interviews talking about sleeping with little boys, marriages to women with whom he didn't live, talking babies to his home within minutes of birth. Having three children his obviously didn't father, and taking his children out masked or veiled in a manner that was bound to be noticed and publicized. MJ going out wearing a surgical mask, going to Court in his pajamas, putting on a show outside the Court House.

These are not the actions of a man who wanted the media to leave him alone.

IMO

[daniel green]

Emanuel--he CRAVED the attention.

Carrying Lewis around like that. And then Bubbles.

And someone is trying to compare this person to Congressman Kennedy?

[Xenam]

It was Michael's right to educate his children as he saw fit, and they did receive proper education. And you know you can't even substantiate his kids weren't educated . You chose how to educate your kids, he chose how to educate his kids. Its the USA, where we are allowed to do that.

Nothing wrong with home schooling. Aren't children required by law to follow certain regulations for home-schooling? Don't know about CA but NYS has a whole list of home schooling regulations that tutors have to follow and they are periodically tested as well.

There are many celebrities whose children are home-schooled just because it is easier for the children to travel with them. Ones I can think off the top of my head are Will Smith and Tom Cruise. I would guess that the celebrities who have their children in school perhaps don't travel; don't take their kids with them or are TV or entertainers where they are staying in a long-term location in a steady job. I would not compare any celebrity kids to Presidential children as they are assigned Secret Service agents and reside in a permanent location. JMO

Goodnight all --

[daniel green]

Nothing wrong with home schooling. Aren't children required by law to follow certain regulations for home-schooling? Don't know about CA but NYS has a whole list of home schooling regulations that tutors have to follow and they are periodically tested as well.

snipped--

What do you suppose those requirements are in Bahrain?

[Xenam]

What do you suppose those requirements are in Bahrain?

He was in Bahrain for 6 months and is a legal resident of CA -- and that is one of the reasons his children were home schooled. There are state regulations (at least in NY) but children are allowed to travel however they still have to meet certain requirements and are tested periodically. I would presume that a schedule is worked out if traveling.

I've been looking for the interview that I believe E Online did with Bryan Stoller. Stoller is director/producer and wrote "Filmmaking for Dummies". In the interview I saw he said that MJ's childrens' tutor was a retired U of CA professor and Stoller used to go to MJ's home to teach about animation and filmmaking and always ran into this tutor. Still looking -- every link I have found -- said the page has expired and even the cached version doesn't give the article - just the heading. grrr

ETA:

You are pretty good at finding stuff -- here's a snippet I just found but the link to complete article is dead. I am going to bed now so see ya tomorrow

Director and producer Bryan Michael Stoller, who was friends with Michael Jackson, says, "Michael really wanted to be a filmmaker and direct a feature film." Jackson also had Stoller tutor his children on filmmaking at Neverland Ranch. "He'd set up a makeshift classroom, and he wanted me to mentor the kids on filmmaking," said Stoller. "We were talking about how animation was done, scripts, screenplays. He was totally into that." [E!]

http://jezebel.com/5320610/sjp-matthew-to-live-separately-feds-raid-office-of-michaels-doctor

[Xenam]

Too late to edit above:

Interview with not much detail though:

STOLLER: Well, you know, I never saw the kids spoiled in any way. I mean, to me, they were the most normal, well-brought-up kids, polite, not - - not cocky, not greedy, not -- I mean, if you were to have met the kids and not know that their father was Michael Jackson, you would say to yourself that these are really well-brought-up kids, very well disciplined.

VAN SUSTEREN: Home-schooled and at the sort of the grade appropriate for their age?

STOLLER: Yes. I mean -- I mean, the kids -- the kids are very intelligent. And again, the majority of the time when I was up at Neverland, they were always being schooled.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530604,00.html

[Unperson1984]

He was in Bahrain for 6 months and is a legal resident of CA -- and that is one of the reasons his children were home schooled. There are state regulations (at least in NY) but children are allowed to travel however they still have to meet certain requirements and are tested periodically. I would presume that a schedule is worked out if traveling.

I've been looking for the interview that I believe E Online did with Bryan Stoller. Stoller is director/producer and wrote "Filmmaking for Dummies". In the interview I saw he said that MJ's childrens' tutor was a retired U of CA professor and Stoller used to go to MJ's home to teach about animation and filmmaking and always ran into this tutor. Still looking -- every link I have found -- said the page has expired and even the cached version doesn't give the article - just the heading. grrr

ETA:

You are pretty good at finding stuff -- here's a snippet I just found but the link to complete article is dead. I am going to bed now so see ya tomorrow

Director and producer Bryan Michael Stoller, who was friends with Michael Jackson, says, "Michael really wanted to be a filmmaker and direct a feature film." Jackson also had Stoller tutor his children on filmmaking at Neverland Ranch. "He'd set up a makeshift classroom, and he wanted me to mentor the kids on filmmaking," said Stoller. "We were talking about how animation was done, scripts, screenplays. He was totally into that." [E!]

http://jezebel.com/5320610/sjp-matthew-to-live-separately-feds-raid-office-of-michaels-doctor

Of course this discussion had nothing to do with Home Schooling, it began as a discussion regarding MJ's children's lack of normal social interaction with other children.

Scooby suggested that MJ couldn’t send his children to school because of his fame, and I pointed out that there are schools which cater to the needs of celebtity’s children.

[Firehead11]

Did MJ have home schooling since he started so young in performing? Maybe Rowe had something to do with this? Maybe he was scared to death of the children being hurt? As far as schools that have dealt with celebrity's, yeah Hilton turned out great didn't she? I wonder where Farrah's son went ot school. Isn't it said the most pressure to bear is peer pressure? Anyway, I guess we will see how good or bad the home schooling was.

It was Rowe that wanted the children veiled, MJ certainly took the heat on that one. She didn't want the public to see their face in case some lunatic tried to kidnap them. Links were provided for this, does not anyone read links anymore?

The bottom line is, the man should not be dead now. His death was ruled a homicide as per the coroner's report.

Oh and as far as the outrage about Smith and her burial, people flipped when the mother wanted to bury her in Texas and meanwhile most people knew that she would have wanted to be buried next to her son. No comparsions between the two burial timings and the reasons that may be behind them.

[Firehead11]

Just keep in mind this is a tabloid. If this really is anywhere near the truth of what is coming from Dr. Murray's defense -- I absolutely do not believe it for one second. JMO


Michael Jackson killed himself by accident, doctor to claim

Michael Jackson's doctor will claim that the star accidentally administered a fatal overdose of anaesthetic, it was reported on Sunday.


Ian Johnston
Published: 12:28AM BST 30 Aug 2009

Dr Conrad Murray has admitted he put the singing legend on a drip containing the drug Propofol but says he set it up to give 25 milligrams to help Jackson sleep.

The News of the World reported that his legal team will claim Jackson reset the machine controlling the drip, increasing the dosage which led to the heart attack that killed him.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6112586/Michael-Jackson-killed-himself-by-accident-doctor-to-claim.html


This report should not have surprised anyone, and I don't believe it either.

[Nic99]

This report should not have surprised anyone, and I don't believe it either.

I don't believe it either. I note the Telegraph said the 'News of the World' reported, and that was enough for me.......

[mrsmcgoo]

I think it is sad that on this thread it is implied that MJ's celebrity status and media coverage is a reason that MJ didn't seek treatment for his addictions. That is nothing but an excuse, a poor one at that.

Never has a celebrity been ridiculed or scrutinized for seeking treatment. Just the opposite if anything. They are supported for their courage. They are given an opportunity to be an example, and perhaps help others. It's sad that MJ didn't take advantage of this opportunity or get the chance too. But to say he didn't because he was under the watchful eye of the media is the poorest excuse I have ever heard.

JMO

[Nic99]

I may be wrong but I thought he did go for some treatment after Elizabeth Taylor encouraged him, but unfortunately, it obviously didn't work. Addiction is a crippling illness and unless the person really recognises they need help, then it isn't going to work imo. An addict is not something people choose to be, it is an illness which takes over their lives and can cause devastating effects.

[GentleBreeze]

I think it is sad that on this thread it is implied that MJ's celebrity status and media coverage is a reason that MJ didn't seek treatment for his addictions. That is nothing but an excuse, a poor one at that.

Never has a celebrity been ridiculed or scrutinized for seeking treatment. Just the opposite if anything. They are supported for their courage. They are given an opportunity to be an example, and perhaps help others. It's sad that MJ didn't take advantage of this opportunity or get the chance too. But to say he didn't because he was under the watchful eye of the media is the poorest excuse I have ever heard.

JMO

I have never seen MJ supported on anything by the media. He tried to explain that he had vitiliago many years ago but what did the media do? Did they support him or twist it around that he was actually lying and didn't have it and just wanted to be a white man.

Then close friends of his, some of them who are doctors, said he had Lupus. Did the media support him in that or again sensationalize it making their viewers believe he really didn't have it.

So I have never seen the media rushing to MJs side to support him on anything. Not even when he said he was going to get rehab treatment for his addition to painkillers, irrc in 1993.

And no doubt MJ knew that he would receive no support from the media for anything he did. Why would they start now? He has always been their favorite cash cow and the more sensationalist they can make it means more money in their pockets.

And not all celebrities want their addiction exposed to the world and usually they arent the ones that have put it out there in the first place but hmmm the nice caring media did. Just because some may doesn't mean everyone likes everyone interfering in their personal trials and tribulations.

I think MJ felt very alone and knew no matter what it did he would be ridiculed about it by the bottom feeders who would spin it in their favor in order to get the almighty dollar. Positive things don't sell rag mags or boost ratings. The more they can titillate it the more they like it.

imo

[mrsmcgoo]

I may be wrong but I thought he did go for some treatment after Elizabeth Taylor encouraged him, but unfortunately, it obviously didn't work. Addiction is a crippling illness and unless the person really recognises they need help, then it isn't going to work imo. An addict is not something people choose to be, it is an illness which takes over their lives and can cause devastating effects.

No, you are correct. He went to treatment and released a statement about it.

Your understanding of addiction is how I view it as well, especially your words "that no one would choose to be an addict."

My post was inregards to a post in reference to MJ not going to rehab because of the media attention. MJ is a poor example of someone who didn't like media attention, plus as you stated so well, an addict is an illness.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Just keep in mind this is a tabloid. If this really is anywhere near the truth of what is coming from Dr. Murray's defense -- I absolutely do not believe it for one second. JMO


Michael Jackson killed himself by accident, doctor to claim

Michael Jackson's doctor will claim that the star accidentally administered a fatal overdose of anesthetic, it was reported on Sunday.


Ian Johnston
Published: 12:28AM BST 30 Aug 2009

Dr Conrad Murray has admitted he put the singing legend on a drip containing the drug Propofol but says he set it up to give 25 milligrams to help Jackson sleep.

The News of the World reported that his legal team will claim Jackson reset the machine controlling the drip, increasing the dosage which led to the heart attack that killed him.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6112586/Michael-Jackson-killed-himself-by-accident-doctor-to-claim.html

I really don't believe a word from this smut rag but ok.

So after two months they are now speaking of a defense. Hmmm this tells me Murray and his lawyer does expect an arrest.

It also shows me that the Coronor isn't buy their spiel.

So conveniently now they will say this knowing MJ is dead and voiceless. How convenient for them both.

I guess MJ timed it just right and did this in less than 2 minutes since Murray said that was the maximum time he was gone. Hmmm how convenient.

And why didn't he even tell EMTs at all about the teeny tiny amount that HE had given him? Imo, he thought as long as MJ had been worked on, by himself, EMTS and ER Docs that the Propovol would have left his system by then and if any was found it would just be traces.

If anyone set that drip too fast it was the doctor administrating it while his patient was under his control.

imo

[mrsmcgoo]

I have never seen MJ supported on anything by the media. He tried to explain that he had vitiliago many years ago but what did the media do? Did they support him or twist it around that he was actually lying and didn't have it and just wanted to be a white man.

Then close friends of his, some of them who are doctors, said he had Lupus. Did the media support him in that or again sensationalize it making their viewers believe he really didn't have it.

So I have never seen the media rushing to MJs side to support him on anything. Not even when he said he was going to get rehab treatment for his addition to painkillers, irrc in 1993.

And no doubt MJ knew that he would receive no support from the media for anything he did. Why would they start now? He has always been their favorite cash cow and the more sensationalist they can make it means more money in their pockets.

And not all celebrities want their addiction exposed to the world and usually they arent the ones that have put it out there in the first place but hmmm the nice caring media did. Just because some may doesn't mean everyone likes everyone interfering in their personal trials and tribulations.

I think MJ felt very alone and knew no matter what it did he would be ridiculed about it by the bottom feeders who would spin it in their favor in order to get the almighty dollar. Positive things don't sell rag mags or boost ratings. The more they can titillate it the more they like it.

imo

I agree with some of your post. Those mags are trash and the more dynamic the headlines are, the more money they make. I always love when celebrity's take them to court! :thumbup:

I thought that MJ released a statement that he was getting treatment for prescription drug abuse though? I can't remember exactly when, but I can picture him in it and he explained about the pain he was in and how it got out of hand. In my opinion, this was the right move. If only he had been successful. But really MJ is not different than many addicts. It takes many attempts for addicts to get sober sometimes. The lucky few manage it on the first try.

I think the respectful publications would have supported MJ. I am more of a rah rah, go go person and would like to think that people want others to do good and have success in their lives. I would like to think the positive things people do are noted and praised, but sadly you are right, sometimes they aren't.

I never read that trash. I haven't bought any of those tabloids since Princess Dianna died. :thumbdown:

JMO

[?WudScoobyDo]

Emanuel--he CRAVED the attention.

Carrying Lewis around like that. And then Bubbles.

And someone is trying to compare this person to Congressman Kennedy?

Yes, it was me. They are both addicts, and they are both human beings. But only one of them gets treated as a human being with emotions and feelings. The other one gets ripped apart, even in death.

But thats okay so long as its freaky MJ.

[Nic99]

Yes, it was me. They are both addicts, and they are both human beings. But only one of them gets treated as a human being with emotions and feelings. The other one gets ripped apart, even in death.

But thats okay so long as its freaky MJ.

Yes, you're exactly right and its very sad.

[?WudScoobyDo]

So many odd things, I remember when he use to carry Emmanual Lewis around everywhere, then it was his chimp. His ever changing face, interviews talking about sleeping with little boys, marriages to women with whom he didn't live, talking babies to his home within minutes of birth. Having three children his obviously didn't father, and taking his children out masked or veiled in a manner that was bound to be noticed and publicized. MJ going out wearing a surgical mask, going to Court in his pajamas, putting on a show outside the Court House.

These are not the actions of a man who wanted the media to leave him alone.

IMO

Since when is it the media's business who fathered his children? I personally think he did. And when he showed up to court in pj's it was because he has gone to the hospital in the night and ORDERED to leave the hospital and go straight to court, and so he did. I have never heard of a defendant being ordered from a hospital bed into court. There is no way he enjoyed the media telling the world he was a pedophile, when it was so clear that he was not guilty of anything other than generousity.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Good Morning everyone..Found this item..



http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/


Jackson Gets Posthumous B'Day Gift from Vegas

Notice who was there to receive the gift, and notice what he did following that receipt..

LMS:tongueside:

[?WudScoobyDo]

Yes, you're exactly right and its very sad.

Hi Nic:

I hope all is well with you and your Father.

[Nic99]

Hi Nic:

I hope all is well with you and your Father.

Thank you for your wishes.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree with some of your post. Those mags are trash and the more dynamic the headlines are, the more money they make. I always love when celebrity's take them to court! :thumbup:

I thought that MJ released a statement that he was getting treatment for prescription drug abuse though? I can't remember exactly when, but I can picture him in it and he explained about the pain he was in and how it got out of hand. In my opinion, this was the right move. If only he had been successful. But really MJ is not different than many addicts. It takes many attempts for addicts to get sober sometimes. The lucky few manage it on the first try.

I think the respectful publications would have supported MJ. I am more of a rah rah, go go person and would like to think that people want others to do good and have success in their lives. I would like to think the positive things people do are noted and praised, but sadly you are right, sometimes they aren't.

I never read that trash. I haven't bought any of those tabloids since Princess Dianna died. :thumbdown:

JMO

I refuse to read that garbage and I don't buy celebrity magazines either. Such a waste of time and money.

But it wasn't just the tabloid. The mainstream media never gave MJ a chance either. The only ones that I think have tried to treat him fairly through the years was Larry King and maybe Geraldo at times.

The main lot of them loved to "beat up Michael". It boosted their ratings out the wazoo. That is why we never heard much about all of MJs humanitarian efforts through the years. That was a positive thing and negativity draws many more viewers/readers. The media's motto is "if it bleeds it leads." All of them know the more negative the news is the more will gather to watch/read.


Sad but true imo.

imo

[Nic99]

Good Morning everyone..Found this item..



http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/


Jackson Gets Posthumous B'Day Gift from Vegas

Notice who was there to receive the gift, and notice what he did following that receipt..

LMS:tongueside:

Good Morning Lynda,

Yuck, that man gives me the creeps. Playboy Club?, says it all really doesn't it.

[mrsmcgoo]

I refuse to read that garbage and I don't buy celebrity magazines either. Such a waste of time and money.

But it wasn't just the tabloid. The mainstream media never gave MJ a chance either. The only ones that I think have tried to treat him fairly through the years was Larry King and maybe Geraldo at times.

The main lot of them loved to "beat up Michael". It boosted their ratings out the wazoo. That is why we never heard much about all of MJs humanitarian efforts through the years. That was a positive thing and negativity draws many more viewers/readers. The media's motto is "if it bleeds it leads." All of them know the more negative the news is the more will gather to watch/read.


Sad but true imo.

imo


I didn't follow alot of what happened with MJ, because truthfully, I followed his trial, but once that was done, the story was done.

It's a shame that people are so negative. There is enough negativity with the wars going on around the world.

I always thought People magazine was fair to all. I don't get Geraldo, but Larry King is for sure fair is it's coverage and I do get that.

I can't even remember the last time I was in a store or getting groceries and gave those trash mags a glance to see what was on the cover.

Shame that people buy into that crap!

JMO

[Firehead11]

I am told that
The Palms" is where the stars hang out.... I don't know. I stayed at the Orleans. Guess I am not a star.... and neither is Joe J.

[Xenam]

Good Morning everyone..Found this item..



http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/


Jackson Gets Posthumous B'Day Gift from Vegas

Notice who was there to receive the gift, and notice what he did following that receipt..

LMS:tongueside:

Good morning Lynda. The Playboy Club tis Ok -- the man is 80 years old -- don't think he was hitting on anyone or at least no one to take him up on any offer as he left and went to another club where they played MJ tunes. :laugh:

Joe actually sounded rather gracious when presented with the "star":

From your link:
Robin Leach presented the star to Joe Jackson, Michael's dad, who said, "I wish he was here to see this take place."

[Xenam]

I really don't believe a word from this smut rag but ok.

So after two months they are now speaking of a defense. Hmmm this tells me Murray and his lawyer does expect an arrest.

It also shows me that the Coronor isn't buy their spiel.

So conveniently now they will say this knowing MJ is dead and voiceless. How convenient for them both.

I guess MJ timed it just right and did this in less than 2 minutes since Murray said that was the maximum time he was gone. Hmmm how convenient.

And why didn't he even tell EMTs at all about the teeny tiny amount that HE had given him? Imo, he thought as long as MJ had been worked on, by himself, EMTS and ER Docs that the Propovol would have left his system by then and if any was found it would just be traces.

If anyone set that drip too fast it was the doctor administrating it while his patient was under his control.

imo

Hey GB xx

We have seen several demos of this drip being given and all of the patients were out within 10 seconds -- no way could MJ have done this. JMO

[Unperson1984]

Since when is it the media's business who fathered his children? I personally think he did. And when he showed up to court in pj's it was because he has gone to the hospital in the night and ORDERED to leave the hospital and go straight to court, and so he did. I have never heard of a defendant being ordered from a hospital bed into court. There is no way he enjoyed the media telling the world he was a pedophile, when it was so clear that he was not guilty of anything other than generousity.

Of course he didn't likethe media calling him a pedophile, but he went on national television and said he sleeps with little boys. What did he expect?

[GentleBreeze]

Good morning Lynda. The Playboy Club tis Ok -- the man is 80 years old -- don't think he was hitting on anyone or at least no one to take him up on any offer as he left and went to another club where they played MJ tunes. :laugh:

Joe actually sounded rather gracious when presented with the "star":

From your link:
Robin Leach presented the star to Joe Jackson, Michael's dad, who said, "I wish he was here to see this take place."


Actually the old guy looked pretty good. He didn't have a problem at all getting back up on his feet after being down on the floor.:biggrin:

imo

[Roxxanne]

Don't know if it's been posted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamara-conniff/we-killed-michael-jackson_b_272174.html

[ABC]

Our business or not, his children need closure. Until the ceremonies that surround the loss of a loved one are completed, there is no way to really move forward.

IMO
Closure is a catch phrase from the psychbabble folk. There is no "closure" - there is only learning to live with the pain and suffering and missing the person for the rest of our lives. It is like putting a ton of rocks on your back. It never gets any lighter but you get use to carring it. Moving forward is putting one foot in front of another, soldering on. Why? Cause we have to for the living. And this work has nothing to do with the ceremonies but the love felt for the fallen. AT least, the ceremonies keep you busy.

[Xenam]

Of course he didn't likethe media calling him a pedophile, but he went on national television and said he sleeps with little boys. What did he expect?

I just want to clarify this - he did not say "sleep" he said "share"; he also said he slept on the floor.
Don't know if you ever saw his bed -- but it was custom made and was as wide as the wall behind it.
Nothing like a bed you or I would own.

This is the part from MJ's uncut video released. What was shown on TV was an "edited" version by Bashir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO-4lgRTcmU&feature=related

Granada offers charity donation to settle with Jackson

Jackson slammed the programme and accused it of being selectively edited and designed to show him in the worst possible light. He responded with his own documentary, which was filmed by his team at the same time Bashir was shooting his.

In Jackson's show, broadcast on News Corporation's Fox Television channel in the US and on its sister channel Sky One in the UK, Bashir was seen to praise and compliment the popstar on his parenting. None of this footage appeared in Bashir's programme.

http://www.brandrepublic.com/News/189422/Granada-offers-charity-donation-settle-Jackson/

[GentleBreeze]

I have to wonder .....what did he tell his children was the reason he was hooked up to an IV every night and knocked out? How were those countless medicine bottles that always littered his bedroom explained to them??? When the nanny had to keep the children away from him because he was too high for them to see.

I fully expected Michael Jackson to die, frankly, I am a little shocked he lived as long as he did. Oxman expected it....and if those close to him that claimed to have wanted to stage an intervention...they knew it too. I don't think you are giving his children enough credit. I think, the older two knew far more than you think. imo

Why would he have to tell them anything?

I am sure they were sleeping since it was late into the night.

Do you tell your child everything once you have retired to your bedroom for the night?

Oh I give them a lot of credit.:smile: I just give them positive credit not negative credit. I think they will become very knowledgeable about how their father became addicted to prescriptions and imo they will do so with sadness and understanding the disease that gripped their father and others like him.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Don't know if it's been posted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamara-conniff/we-killed-michael-jackson_b_272174.html

This is a sad article but so true, imo.

Excerpt:

He was a desperate man in pain and everyone threw stones at him. Now it's fashionable to be a Michael Jackson fan. Radio stations now play his music on heavy rotation. His albums are flying off the shelves. Urban Outfitters even carries a commemorative vinyl collection that hipsters can frame and put on their walls. Suddenly the entire world has rediscovered Michael Jackson. He's dead damn it. Imagine what this kind of love would have done for him while he was living? Maybe then he wouldn't need drugs to sleep. :sad:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Interesting viewpoint~~

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/columnist/135573

Death by fame
by Kathleen Parker, Aspen Daily News Columnist
Sunday, July 12, 2009

LMS

[Xenam]

Martin Bashir painted a distorted picture of Michael Jackson, editing out Michael Jackson’s explanations of things and contorting situations into tabloid fodder. To Michael Jackson’s face, Bashir said that Michael was a devoted father, and it was obvious that Michael’s children loved him. On camera, Bashir expressed his grave concerns for Michael’s children. Off camera, Bashir complimented Michael on his work with children, saying that Neverland was a wondrous place for them. On camera, Bashir painted Neverland as a cryptic and dangerous place for children. Bashir made many complimentary statements to Michael Jackson, which led Michael to believe that Bashir was on his side. All those compliments fell onto Bashir’s cutting room floor as his production company cut and pasted together segments to make a sensational story, instead of a human one.

Luckily for Michael Jackson, Martin Bashir was never really “off camera.” Michael Jackson’s personal videographer was always filming. Had it not been for Michael’s personal videographer, the truth behind the interview might have never been revealed.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Martin-basher-Living-with-michael-jackson

[Cindylee]

Of course he didn't likethe media calling him a pedophile, but he went on national television and said he sleeps with little boys. What did he expect?

That is what I feel.

[Xenam]

Martin Bashir On Jackson:

"I think all of us were shocked and deeply saddened by the news today. I was actually out running in Central Park when I heard, and came home, showered and came into the office.

Many of us were excited about the prospect of him performing in London. Thousands of people had bought tickets from all over the world. And now to hear to hear this news is very, very sad.

I think it's worth remembering that he was probably, singly, the greatest dancer and musician the world has ever seen.

Certainly when I made the documentary, there was a small part of that which contained a controversy concerning his relationship with other young people. But the truth is that he was never convicted of any crime, I never saw any wrongdoing myself. And last his lifestyle may have been unorthodox, I don't believe it was criminal. And I think the world has now lost the greatest entertainer it's probably ever known."

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=7933530&page=1

[GentleBreeze]

Interesting viewpoint~~

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/columnist/135573

Death by fame
by Kathleen Parker, Aspen Daily News Columnist
Sunday, July 12, 2009

LMS

Very.

I am so glad that media outlets are beginning to address the real MJ and not what was painted by the media for so long.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Martin Bashir On Jackson:

"I think all of us were shocked and deeply saddened by the news today. I was actually out running in Central Park when I heard, and came home, showered and came into the office.

Many of us were excited about the prospect of him performing in London. Thousands of people had bought tickets from all over the world. And now to hear to hear this news is very, very sad.

I think it's worth remembering that he was probably, singly, the greatest dancer and musician the world has ever seen.

Certainly when I made the documentary, there was a small part of that which contained a controversy concerning his relationship with other young people. But the truth is that he was never convicted of any crime, I never saw any wrongdoing myself. And last his lifestyle may have been unorthodox, I don't believe it was criminal. And I think the world has now lost the greatest entertainer it's probably ever known."

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=7933530&page=1

Even Bashir knew he had been wrong about MJ.

imo

[ABC]

Even Bashir knew he had been wrong about MJ.

imo

Breeze, although I think that Bashir portrayed the true Michael Jackson and the fantsy world he lived in, MJ did go along with the filming. I think MJ thought it was okay until all the negative reaction came his way from the airing of the film. I don't know who is the real MJ but do believe that Jacson did, in fact, though there was nothing wrong with his life style. I have seen numerous people with Vitaligo and none of them looked like Michael Jackson.

[retiredcop]

I just watched Michael Jackson's 25 most outrageous moments.:scared:

[GentleBreeze]

http://showbiz411.blogs.thr.com/tmz-michael-jackson-frank-dileo-patrick-alloco/#more-2563

TMZ Gets Punk’D With Fake Jackson Document

The only problem with that last assertion, of course, is that DiLeo has never been served, and is not in federal court with AllGood Entertainment.

Strangely enough, Alloco is still trying to sue everyone connected with Michael Jackson over his alleged concert scheme, even through the singer is dead. The theory behind this latest move —especially after Gravatt’s email—is that Alloco and his group—including Joseph Jackson, Leonard Rowe, and Tohme Tohme—may have fabricated the letter to make DiLeo look bad.

[retiredcop]

Everyone is so ready to put a noose around Murrays neck. No one knows exactly what happened. Murray said he gave MJ 25 mg of diprivan....then it was said that he left the room. How does anyone know that someone didnt come behind Murray and inject MJ again? The rented house was huge. Anyone could have been in there. imo

Since we don't have the tox report or the autopsy report, I feel there is something exculpatory in those documents. I think there is something in the autopsy report especially that will be very detrimental to Mr Jackson. Everything about the condition of the body is there.

Why isn't the doctor charged yet is my question?

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

Breeze, although I think that Bashir portrayed the true Michael Jackson and the fantsy world he lived in, MJ did go along with the filming. I think MJ thought it was okay until all the negative reaction came his way from the airing of the film. I don't know who is the real MJ but do believe that Jacson did, in fact, though there was nothing wrong with his life style. I have seen numerous people with Vitaligo and none of them looked like Michael Jackson.

I have seen several too and if I look at the photos of MJ as it progressed over the yeas it is indeed very similar to the people I have seen.

Now I am sure those people don't have a dermatologist as one of their best friends at their beckoning call nor would have the money that MJ had.

Yes, he did think it was okay. He immaturely thought sharing one's bed was an act of kindness and generosity. He did not realize how so many would make the leap of just "sharing of a bed" to automatically assuming it meant sexual abuse. Imo, MJ knew he had done nothing wrong so he answered the questions truthfully and forthrightly when asked.

imo

[retiredcop]

==========
u mean there was only 25? lol

Number 1 was the dangling baby incident. :scared:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Everyone is so ready to put a noose around Murrays neck. No one knows exactly what happened. Murray said he gave MJ 25 mg of diprivan....then it was said that he left the room. How does anyone know that someone didnt come behind Murray and inject MJ again? The rented house was huge. Anyone could have been in there. imo

Noose..No..But accountable YES

No ones knows exactly because Dr. Murray took dayz before he gave a statement, making sure he had a lawyer in tow..

That 25mg Diprivan...isnt holding water..I not only doubt that dose, I also doubt the timeline of any dosing done of Diprivan by Dr. Murray.

As to someone coming into the room....Not only rediculous, it doesnt even rise to the level as reasonable..even Dr. Murray hasnt claimed that one..although it seems he is trying to suggest MJ woke up and gave it to himself?? Again not reasonable due to this particular drug action..Surely you have read all the outlines of this drug??

You would make an excellent juror if Murray needs one..willing to even entertain the plausibility of what you suggest..Maybe those rose coloured glasses you're wearing should be sold on the market...:laugh:

Bottom line is Murray was incharge of MJ's life, when using such treatment..and he failed miserably on oh so many levels..

LMS

[GentleBreeze]

Since we don't have the tox report or the autopsy report, I feel there is something exculpatory in those documents. I think there is something in the autopsy report especially that will be very detrimental to Mr Jackson. Everything about the condition of the body is there.

Why isn't the doctor charged yet is my question?

in my opinion

What is the hurry?

We have had to wait a long time before others suspects were finally arrested. I don't want them to hurry. I want them to do a thorough investigation no matter how long it takes.

LOL! I am sure Murray's lawyer is hoping that is true too!

I don't think there will be. They have already listed all the drugs found even those used to try to save MJ.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I think it's more likely that Murray did give him 25mgs....MJ nodded out for a few minutes, woke up and reset it.

Few minutes? Murray said he left the room no more than for two minutes maximum. So MJ has to wake up realize Murray isn't there, reach up and adjust the drip (why would he do that if it was still dripping and how would he wake up if it was dripping since we have seen patients are out in seconds) then goes into cardiac arrest, stops breathing, while laying in the bed all before Murray gets back in two minutes?:biggrin:Sure. lol

Sounds like that lawyer in the King case last week that had ridiculous theories too that didn't fly.:smile:

imo

[retiredcop]

Few minutes? Murray said he left the room no more than for two minutes maximum. So MJ has to wake up realize Murray isn't there, reach up and adjust the drip (why would he do that if it was still dripping and how would he wake up if it was dripping since we have seen patients are out in seconds) then goes into cardiac arrest, stops breathing, while laying in the bed all before Murray gets back in two minutes?:biggrin:Sure. lol

Sounds like that lawyer in the King case last week that had ridiculous theories too that didn't fly.:smile:

imo

He wanted Diprivan. He begged for it from Nurse Lee. He was addicted to that and many other drugs. He was a full blown addict.
He had the money to get it too. Just like he had the money to sleep with boys.

The part of the investigation as to how Mr Jackson died and who was there is completed. Why no arrest yet?

in my opinion

[Lyndawitha"Y]

--------------
would u give a statement w/o an attorney? i seriously doubt it. but thats how it works in our country. i never said that Murray claimed that someone came into the room behind him. Theres a lot of things that could have happened but u seem to think u know everything.
U would not make a good juror because u already have a closed mind.
imo

Nope Buzzzzzz, I dont know everything...but I do know about Diprivan, it's effects, its uses, and do know that anyone other than the Doctor didnt dose MJ with it....All the rest will become known to any jury who is seated if and when someone gets charged...

BTW..I did not say you said Murray claimed that, only you suggested that scenerio..and not even Murray's lawyer has suggested it..

Also, A Good Juror is suppose to listen to evidence not fantasy's one makes up in their minds..Thank goodness juries are made of 12 people not one. My mind isnt closed, it's open to anything plausible...this one you suggested it not one of those..

LMS

[GentleBreeze]

"He didn't realize how so many would make the leap"....Please...he had at least two clues...the two boys he paid multi millions to....and he paid it because he feared "the leap". He knew...he just didn't care.

I disagree. I think he grew arrogant and bold. I think he came to believe rules didn't apply to him....and as long as he had money, he could buy his way out...again, and again....

In the early years, he hid the fact he was sleeping with boys. A boy would be snuck onto his private plane with luggage. Hanging out with them in the daytime was one thing....back then he feared anyone finding out he slept with them. When it became easier because of his wealth and celebrity....he assumed he could schmooze everyone as easily as his little friend's moms....and his paid employees.

all in my opinion.


I don't and there is no evidence that MJ has ever been daring or bold. He has always been known as a shy man.

Nope don't believe it one second. 3 extortion cases when he had been around thousands upon thousands of children for decades.:confused: And loads of children have spent the night with him at Neverland and have wonderful memories of him. He foolishly trusted his extortioners to treat him as he had treated them but the thought of the money pot has a way of changing people. Thats what happens when some parents think "I have a plan and have paid people to carry it out."

He didn't change because he knew he had not harmed any child. Now in this mean old adult world he should have known that wasn't going to work but being child like that he was he did believe it. He probably thought that if he did change then people for sure would think he had done something wrong in the past.

I believe he is like the articles coming out about him now, thankfully. He was a child trapped into an adult life he did not know how to live in. The only time he mostly ventured out was when he was on stage performing or spending the day with his children. He trusted children much more than he did adults.

I found MJ to be very truthful. Yes it was unorthodox for sure. Now it is not something I would do but I would never make the leap that sharing a bed with a child automatically means there is something sexual going on. In fact I find that quite interesting and how some seem to make that leap immediately.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

He wanted Diprivan. He begged for it from Nurse Lee. He was addicted to that and many other drugs. He was a full blown addict.
He had the money to get it too.

The part of the investigation as to how Mr Jackson died and who was there is completed. Why no arrest yet?
Snipped for relevance.

in my opinion

Really? Then were are all the other drugs besides the ones Murray has already admitted giving him? Nope seems MJ was taking the drugs that Murray gave to him.

You have no idea what is completed and what is not.lol Just the Coroner's report is only one piece of evidence and there will be plenty more than that before they are through investigating.


Why so antsy? You were the same way when wanting to hear the COD and MOD.:confused:

Don't worry it will come when the time is right or rhe LAPD will come out and make a statement so that Murray can come out of his house.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

You found MJ truthful?

Now that's laughable!

You believe he was a victim of police brutality too? rofl

imo

I believe he thought he was mistreated but no in my adult mind I don't think he was brutalized by the police although for a very shy man it had to be terribly traumatic for him.

Yes, I certainly found him very truthful and forthright.

Even Bashir says he may have lived an unorthodox life style but he believes he was never did anything criminal and wasn't he in MJs home for many months on end? Like 7?

imo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

-------------
and just how r u so sure that someone other than Murray didnt inject him? R u willing to say u were there and seen exactly what happened?
What if Murray had not been honest when he said he gave MJ 25 mg of Diprivan? Then who would u and all the MJ idolizers be blaming? let me guess............It would still be Murray. imo

Once again, you (u) are making many assumptions here..I am no MJ idolizer :confused: I am sure many here know exactly my viewpoint...I just dont chose to continue to rehash some of things you and others wish to...

I am willing to say all this, because I have spent 4 decades of professional medical exposure to all the drugs being suggested in this case, and I can say, unequivably..MJ did not play at the IV clamp to give himself more Diprivan, and unless Dr. Murray had a huge dose, line of IV primed with Diprivan and ready to go, no layperson would even know how to infuse it, push it, or manipulate any IV lines for that matter...That I know for sure. As to your thought of MJ walking up abruptly, and be able to sit up, and alter his infusion, again, you have never observed how patients behave after receiving such IV meds such as Ativan (IV) and Versed (IV)..It just is just not plausible..

Take it for what its worth Buzzzzz, you can believe me or not, that is your right to ignore my experience...

LMS

[?WudScoobyDo]

You found MJ truthful?

Now that's laughable!

You believe he was a victim of police brutality too? rofl

imo


I've always thought it pretty brutal he was arrested at all. I thought it brutal that the police, and I think about 60 of them tore up his home, supposedly looking for evidence. I thought it brutal when the DA showed his wicked face on tv and told the world MJ was guily of horrific crimes, when he knew dam well that MJ had never done anything of the sort. I thought it brutal of the police when they made him remove his clothes to take pictures of him. And you do not know how he was treated or mistreated once inside the doors of the police station. In that case the only liars were the ones against Michael Jackson.

[Roxxanne]

Once again, you (u) are making many assumptions here..I am no MJ idolizer :confused: I am sure many here know exactly my viewpoint...I just dont chose to continue to rehash some of things you and others wish to...

I am willing to say all this, because I have spent 4 decades of professional medical exposure to all the drugs being suggested in this case, and I can say, unequivably..MJ did not play at the IV clamp to give himself more Diprivan, and unless Dr. Murray had a huge dose, line of IV primed with Diprivan and ready to go, no layperson would even know how to infuse it, push it, or manipulate any IV lines for that matter...That I know for sure. As to your thought of MJ walking up abruptly, and be able to sit up, and alter his infusion, again, you have never observed how patients behave after receiving such IV meds such as Ativan (IV) and Versed (IV)..It just is just not plausible..

Take it for what its worth Buzzzzz, you can believe me or not, that is your right to ignore my experience...

LMS

Hi Lynda I have a question. Can you get versed by prescription?

[?WudScoobyDo]

---------------------
and u may be in for a surprise when the kids get older and possibly write a tell-tale book about their not so wonderful father. imo

Paris is old enough to know how she was treated by her Father, and she had no problem expressing herself to the world. Perhaps you missed that, when she told the world her Daddy was the best Daddy in the world, and she loved him so much, before she completely collapsed into the arms of her aunt, sobbing uncontrollably. I continue to be suprised at the heartlessness of some people.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I am only going on personal experience. I was given Demerol and Diprivan...when I woke up...it was wide awake. Like I simply blinked.

I am thinking MJ went through this nightly and was observant enough to know exactly what he wanted and we know he knew how to go about getting it.

I don't believe increasing the dosage is rocket science and I think that MJ was more than capable of changing the dosage if he did awaken. It's not like he was a newbie ............imo


Its been my experience that ativan given through an iv is adequate to keep a person sound asleep for days. I don't believe MJ was so addicted that those massive amounts of drugs would have allowed him to wake up at all. 3 milligrams of it in pill form is adequate to put someone out for at least a day. I don't believe MJ asked for propofol at all that morning, I think he was dead already.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Hi Lynda I have a question. Can you get versed by prescription?

Versed comes in different formats..

IV~
http://www.medicinenet.com/midazolam-injection/article.htm

USES: Midazolam is used before operations or procedures to relax you, make you sleepy and to decrease your memory of the event.

Syrup~
http://www.medicinenet.com/midazolam-oral_syrup/article.htm

USES: This medication is used to relax and calm patients (generally children) before certain procedures, or before anesthesia for surgery. It also helps decrease memory of the event.

DRUG INTERACTIONS: Tell your doctor of all prescription and nonprescription medication you may use, especially of: azole antifungals (e.g., fluconazole, itraconazole, ketoconazole), macrolide antibiotics (e.g., clarithromycin, erythromycin), protease inhibitors (e.g., ritonavir, nelfinavir), calcium channel blockers (e.g., diltiazem, verapamil), cimetidine, carbamazepine, phenytoin, rifamycins (e.g., rifampin). Also report the use of drugs that can drowsiness such as: sleeping pills, sedatives, tranquilizers, anti-anxiety drugs, narcotic pain relievers (e.g., codeine), psychiatric medicines, anti-seizure drugs, muscle relaxants, drowsiness-causing anti- histamines (e.g., diphenhydramine). Check the labels on all your medicines (e.g., cough-and-cold products) because they may contain drowsiness-causing ingredients. Ask your pharmacist about the safe use of those products. Do not eat grapefruit or drink grapefruit juice unless your doctor instructs you otherwise. Do not start or stop any medicine without doctor or pharmacist approval

Roxxane, yes it is a perscription drug, especially utlized to control seizures...I rather doubt IV Versed would ever be perscribed for any layperson to take..as outlined here, there are alot of pitfalls.

http://www.drugs.com/cons/versed.html

This link outlines the precautions..in various circumstances..
eg:
Before Using This Medicine
In deciding to use a medicine, the risks of taking the medicine must be weighed against the good it will do. This is a decision you and your doctor will make. For midazolam, the following should be considered:

Other medicines—Although certain medicines should not be used together at all, in other cases two different medicines may be used together even if an interaction might occur. In these cases, your doctor may want to change the dose, or other precautions may be necessary. When you are receiving midazolam, it is especially important that your health care professional know if you are taking any of the following:

Central nervous system (CNS) depressants (medicines that cause drowsiness) or alcohol—The CNS depressant and other effects of alcohol, other medicines, or midazolam may be increased; also, the effects of midazolam may last longer
Saquinavir (e.g., Fortovase, Invirase)—Saquinavir may interfere with the removal of midazolam from the body, which could lead to serious side effects


There is one thing I always marvelled about this drug..and that was the "Amnesia Effects"...Patients were unable to recall anything of the events, often wonder "What Happened"??

LMS

[retiredcop]

I guess that the coroner ruling it a homicide hasn't registered yet. I guess in your scenario then that they will have to charge MJ with homicide of himself posthumously.

I thought of that when the ruling came out. Geez, it's not like Mr Jackson couldn't stop begging for it. He knew the consequences of that medicine as it had been explained to him in depth by Nurse Lee. I believe many doctors explained it to him also. He still wanted it no matter what. The more he gets it the more it's apt to do him in one day and it did. How do we know he didn't sign a consent to get that drug and it was in writing what could happen. I had to sign those consent forms before surgery. There are no guarantees with any anesthetic. He certainly isn't innocent in his own death.

in my opinion

[?WudScoobyDo]

Of course he didn't likethe media calling him a pedophile, but he went on national television and said he sleeps with little boys. What did he expect?

I guess he expected the rest of the world had innocent minds like he did.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I thought of that when the ruling came out. Geez, it's not like Mr Jackson couldn't stop begging for it. He knew the consequences of that medicine as it had been explained to him in depth by Nurse Lee. I believe many doctors explained it to him also. He still wanted it no matter what. The more he gets it the more it's apt to do him in one day and it did. How do we know he didn't sign a consent to get that drug and it was in writing what could happen. I had to sign those consent forms before surgery. There are no guarantees with any anesthetic. He certainly isn't innocent in his own death.

in my opinion

In the state of california, consent is not a defense to murder.

[?WudScoobyDo]

------------------------
And i'm sure Christina Crawford adored her mother, Joan, at the age of 10....too.
U should re-read my post.....i said when the kids get older. But they first have to get away from the controlling jackson clan. imo

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. okay.

[retiredcop]

In the state of california, consent is not a defense to murder.

Murder? Who said anything about murder?

[retiredcop]

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. okay.

They will know their father wanted Diprivan more than them.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

-------------

wow they do jump the gun eh? lol

I'll say. This looks like the ONE time Mr Jackson had a bad reaction to Diprivan.

in my opinion

[?WudScoobyDo]

You don't believe a man that could spend millions on antiques that have to be kept in a storage facility could afford a few retired secret service people? or competent body guards?


How the heck would that be better than home schooling. If he had done that the same people would be here complaining that the kids had bodyguards instead of being home schooled.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I'll say. This looks like the ONE time Mr Jackson had a bad reaction to Diprivan.

in my opinion


Yeah, a bad reaction... it sure does look that way, huh.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Why not? I've held mine wondering when MJ's vices would do him in....wasn't that long of a wait.

That sounds like obsession disorder to me. Now what will you do with your time?

[?WudScoobyDo]

They will know their father wanted Diprivan more than them.

in my opinion


Thats absurd. They will know like the rest of the world, well most us anyway, that their Father was the victim of homicide. Perhaps the older ones will attend some of the trial, as they seek justice for their loving father.

[Firehead11]

Yeah, a bad reaction... it sure does look that way, huh.


Wow is all I can say. It is a wonder why some post on this thread. They don't discuss, their whole purpose is to bash.

There has been no proof that Jackson has been doing this for DECADES. Actually, all we have is Lee and Murrays word, that Jackson "begged" for the propofol and frankly, I don't believe either of them. It seems to be self serving.

Everytime I ask for a link, no one supplies it.

You certainly have more patience than I Scooby.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Murder? Who said anything about murder?

I did. I have long said this rises to Murder 2, Ive heard attorneys say it does too, and even a LADA said thats the way she would charge it if the case fell on her desk.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Michael Jackson's children have written emotional goodbye letters which will be placed in his coffin.


Prince Michael I, 12, Paris, 11 and seven-year-old Prince Michael II - also known as 'Blanket' - scrawled messages including "Daddy we love you" and "Daddy we miss you" on notes that will be buried with the 'King of Pop' on Thursday.


http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2009/08/30/20090830michael-jacksons-kids-pen-goodbye-notes.html

Thank goodness...sounds like they are in therapy!

It is therapeautic to write letters like that, however I don't believe that coffin will be reopened at all, much less in the presence of the children.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Michael Jackson's relationship with Dr. Murray was a symbiotic one. Michael Jackson owns at least HALF of the responsibility for his own death.


So do you think Murray should suffer similiar consequence for his half?

[retiredcop]

Wow is all I can say. It is a wonder why some post on this thread. They don't discuss, their whole purpose is to bash.

There has been no proof that Jackson has been doing this for DECADES. Actually, all we have is Lee and Murrays word, that Jackson "begged" for the propofol and frankly, I don't believe either of them. It seems to be self serving.

Everytime I ask for a link, no one supplies it.

You certainly have more patience than I Scooby.

We know he was asking for and getting it a 50mg for six weeks. Why would 25 mg do him in. He was no doubt taking other pills right along with that also. Who would believe he was only getting Diprivan all along?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

So do you think Murray should suffer similiar consequence for his half?

Of course not, Dr Murray tried to cut back on the Diprivan to get Mr Jackson weened off of it.

in my opinion

[?WudScoobyDo]

We know he was asking for and getting it a 50mg for six weeks. Why would 25 mg do him in. He was no doubt taking other pills right along with that also. Who would believe he was only getting Diprivan all along?

in my opinion

25 mg isnt enough but the boatload of drugs in his system would be. Either that or Murray is simply lying or mistaken.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Of course not, Dr Murray tried to cut back on the Diprivan to get Mr Jackson weened off of it.

in my opinion


This according to who? Murray himself. He should have hired someone to write his story for him.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Michael Jackson's relationship with Dr. Murray was a symbiotic one. Michael Jackson owns at least HALF of the responsibility for his own death.

Interesting concept, and one which I happen to agree to a certain degree..however, the other half of the equation means Murray needs to pay for his portion of that relationship as I dont think the legal department can do any more punishment than has been done to MJ..I would assume his part has been "Paid In Full"...now we have to figure out just what level of crime Murray will have to pay for...He's the lucky one in that "Symbiotic Relationship", at least he gets out of it with his life, such as it is.

LMS

[?WudScoobyDo]

Interesting concept, and one which I happen to agree to a certain degree..however, the other half of the equation means Murray needs to pay for his portion of that relationship as I dont think the legal department can do any more punishment than has been done to MJ..I would assume his part has been "Paid In Full"...now we have to figure out just what level of crime Murray will have to pay for...He's the lucky one in that "Symbiotic Relationship", at least he gets out of it with his life, such as it is.

LMS


Good Post Lynda.. gave me the chills.

[Roxxanne]

Versed comes in different formats..

IV~
http://www.medicinenet.com/midazolam-injection/article.htm

USES: Midazolam is used before operations or procedures to relax you, make you sleepy and to decrease your memory of the event.

Syrup~
http://www.medicinenet.com/midazolam-oral_syrup/article.htm

USES: This medication is used to relax and calm patients (generally children) before certain procedures, or before anesthesia for surgery. It also helps decrease memory of the event.

DRUG INTERACTIONS: Tell your doctor of all prescription and nonprescription medication you may use, especially of: azole antifungals (e.g., fluconazole, itraconazole, ketoconazole), macrolide antibiotics (e.g., clarithromycin, erythromycin), protease inhibitors (e.g., ritonavir, nelfinavir), calcium channel blockers (e.g., diltiazem, verapamil), cimetidine, carbamazepine, phenytoin, rifamycins (e.g., rifampin). Also report the use of drugs that can drowsiness such as: sleeping pills, sedatives, tranquilizers, anti-anxiety drugs, narcotic pain relievers (e.g., codeine), psychiatric medicines, anti-seizure drugs, muscle relaxants, drowsiness-causing anti- histamines (e.g., diphenhydramine). Check the labels on all your medicines (e.g., cough-and-cold products) because they may contain drowsiness-causing ingredients. Ask your pharmacist about the safe use of those products. Do not eat grapefruit or drink grapefruit juice unless your doctor instructs you otherwise. Do not start or stop any medicine without doctor or pharmacist approval

Roxxane, yes it is a perscription drug, especially utlized to control seizures...I rather doubt IV Versed would ever be perscribed for any layperson to take..as outlined here, there are alot of pitfalls.

http://www.drugs.com/cons/versed.html

This link outlines the precautions..in various circumstances..
eg:
Before Using This Medicine
In deciding to use a medicine, the risks of taking the medicine must be weighed against the good it will do. This is a decision you and your doctor will make. For midazolam, the following should be considered:

Other medicines—Although certain medicines should not be used together at all, in other cases two different medicines may be used together even if an interaction might occur. In these cases, your doctor may want to change the dose, or other precautions may be necessary. When you are receiving midazolam, it is especially important that your health care professional know if you are taking any of the following:

Central nervous system (CNS) depressants (medicines that cause drowsiness) or alcohol—The CNS depressant and other effects of alcohol, other medicines, or midazolam may be increased; also, the effects of midazolam may last longer
Saquinavir (e.g., Fortovase, Invirase)—Saquinavir may interfere with the removal of midazolam from the body, which could lead to serious side effects


There is one thing I always marvelled about this drug..and that was the "Amnesia Effects"...Patients were unable to recall anything of the events, often wonder "What Happened"??

LMS

Thanks Lynda. I appreciate your knowledge.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Michael Jackson kids 'to join Beckham boys at school'

London, Aug 30 : Michael Jackson's children will join Beckham boys to step into classrooms for the first time in their lives, it has emerged

http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-102230.html


Odd that the Los Angeles Times keeps missing these revelations.

[retiredcop]

I did. I have long said this rises to Murder 2, Ive heard attorneys say it does too, and even a LADA said thats the way she would charge it if the case fell on her desk.

Murder 2??? It was not intentional. What about that don't you understand? I think Mr Jackson didn't mind dying. He told Choppa there is a drug that takes him to the edge of death. In a way I think he was suicidal.

This reminds me of the movie Flatliners.

in my opinion

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Thanks Lynda. I appreciate your knowledge.

TY Roxxannne, I appreciate that :blushing:..Sometimes Im not sure how to take some reactions to my postings...Hope the info assisted you in your quest to understand what just went on in this case...

LMS

[?WudScoobyDo]

Murder 2??? It was not intentional. What about that don't you understand? I think Mr Jackson didn't mind dying. He told Choppa there is a drug that takes him to the edge of death. In a way I think he was suicidal.

This reminds me of the movie Flatliners.

in my opinion

Its called implied intent. Look it up, because I have posted it numerous times, and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Murder 2??? It was not intentional. What about that don't you understand? I think Mr Jackson didn't mind dying. He told Choppa there is a drug that takes him to the edge of death. In a way I think he was suicidal.

This reminds me of the movie Flatliners.

in my opinion

Goodness, Intentional would be 1st Degree, wouldnt it?..You being a retiredcop and all, I assumed you would have realized that...Oh well,

LMS

[?WudScoobyDo]

Entertaining read,,,,,,,,

MICHAEL JACKSON'S SPERM SAMPLE GUARDED

"Michael Jackson's family is spending £900 to fly the singer's sperm to London, where it will be stored in a secure clinic to protect it from being used to create a new heir to his fortune."

"Michael - who died in June - deposited the genetic material in a Los Angeles sperm bank last year.

He was hoping it could be used to conceive his fourth child, but his family now fears "rogue elements" could use it to get their hands on Michael's billion dollar estate"

http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/michael-jacksons-sperm-sample-guarded_1114271

I thought he didn't have sperm, since its believed he didn't father his children. And again, don't you find it odd that the LA Times keeps missing out on this breaking news?

[?WudScoobyDo]

---------------------

They will know their father was a hard core drug addict. And u would want to see these kids at a trial? OMG imo


I never said I wanted anything. This issue is what they want, and what the people entrusted to care for them think is appropriate.

[retiredcop]

Its called implied intent. Look it up, because I have posted it numerous times, and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again.

If he is even charged. The definition of homicide has been posted also. I won't waste my time posting that either.

It still reminds of of Flatliners. Mr Jackson was not only addicted to this drug, but I think he really liked where it took him. As he said, the edge of death.:scared:

my opinion only

[retiredcop]

Goodness, Intentional would be 1st Degree, wouldnt it?..You being a retiredcop and all, I assumed you would have realized that...Oh well,

LMS

Stop making this personal.

in my opinion

[?WudScoobyDo]

--------------

that little word "IF" imo maybe she was another MJ worshipper.


Are you saying you think a distict attorney charges cases based on their like or dislike of someone? Then it wouldn't at all be a surprise when Sneddon charged his case because of his dislike for MJ.

[daniel green]

snipped
Director and producer Bryan Michael Stoller, who was friends with Michael Jackson, says, "Michael really wanted to be a filmmaker and direct a feature film." Jackson also had Stoller tutor his children on filmmaking at Neverland Ranch. "He'd set up a makeshift classroom, and he wanted me to mentor the kids on filmmaking," said Stoller. "We were talking about how animation was done, scripts, screenplays. He was totally into that." [E!]

http://jezebel.com/5320610/sjp-matthew-to-live-separately-feds-raid-office-of-michaels-doctor

Oh, terrific. Just as I thought, there was no curriculum those poor children were following.

[impartial]

Goodness, Intentional would be 1st Degree, wouldnt it?..You being a retiredcop and all, I assumed you would have realized that...Oh well,

LMS



1st, 2nd and voluntary manslaughter all have requirements of intentional ... in varying degrees. 2nd degree murder and voluntary manslaughter, intent can be implied with the requisite facts.

imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

----------------

I think MK wanted to die. It was said that he carried around a suicide note. If he didnt want to die, he could have sought help. imo


Back to the suicide without link note, eh. Murray must be one unlucky guy since the one time there was no note in MJ's pocket, he died.

[daniel green]

Of course this discussion had nothing to do with Home Schooling, it began as a discussion regarding MJ's children's lack of normal social interaction with other children.

Scooby suggested that MJ couldn’t send his children to school because of his fame, and I pointed out that there are schools which cater to the needs of celebtity’s children.

One of the things thad drives me totally batty is the shotgun school of argument, wherein one uses whatever nonsequiter imaginable, taking the conversation into entirely different directions and then complaining about where it got.

[daniel green]

I think it is sad that on this thread it is implied that MJ's celebrity status and media coverage is a reason that MJ didn't seek treatment for his addictions. That is nothing but an excuse, a poor one at that.

Never has a celebrity been ridiculed or scrutinized for seeking treatment. Just the opposite if anything. They are supported for their courage. They are given an opportunity to be an example, and perhaps help others. It's sad that MJ didn't take advantage of this opportunity or get the chance too. But to say he didn't because he was under the watchful eye of the media is the poorest excuse I have ever heard.

JMO

A pathetic and weak excuse, to be sure, MrsMc.

Look at Robert Downy Jr, or Betty Ford.

[?WudScoobyDo]

1st, 2nd and voluntary manslaughter all have requirements of intentional ... in varying degrees. 2nd degree murder and voluntary manslaughter, intent can be implied with the requisite facts.

imo

Those pesky requisite facts. What are they again?

[?WudScoobyDo]

------------------

maybe because its not that important. everyone doesnt live and breathe MJ. imo


Trust me when I say that the citizens of LA are interested in the FACTS.

[daniel green]

No, you are correct. He went to treatment and released a statement about it.

snipped

He allegedly went to treatment. Where, nobody knows. He said he went to treatment. Unfortunately most of what MJ told the public, as we all know, were lies.

[?WudScoobyDo]

-----------

That was said by one of MJ's friends on LKL.
go look for the transcript. i wont do the work for u. And i do agree about Murray being an unlucky guy............that happened the day he stepped into MJs life. imo

He could have written a thousand notes, and it doesn't change the FACT that MJ was the victim of homicide, not suicide.

[?WudScoobyDo]

He allegedly went to treatment. Where, nobody knows. He said he went to treatment. Unfortunately most of what MJ told the public, as we all know, were lies.


Does most of what Liz Taylor tells the public a lie as well?

[daniel green]

Good Morning everyone..Found this item..



http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/


Jackson Gets Posthumous B'Day Gift from Vegas

Notice who was there to receive the gift, and notice what he did following that receipt..

LMS:tongueside:

How utterly sad. Robyn Leach giving a "star" to Joe Jackson. :blushing:

[ABC]

I have seen several too and if I look at the photos of MJ as it progressed over the yeas it is indeed very similar to the people I have seen.

Now I am sure those people don't have a dermatologist as one of their best friends at their beckoning call nor would have the money that MJ had.

Yes, he did think it was okay. He immaturely thought sharing one's bed was an act of kindness and generosity. He did not realize how so many would make the leap of just "sharing of a bed" to automatically assuming it meant sexual abuse. Imo, MJ knew he had done nothing wrong so he answered the questions truthfully and forthrightly when asked. imo

Breeze. In my opinion, the folks afflicted with the disease have a pinkish cast to the white areas where the brown layer has lightened, The area is generally spotted and certainly are not chalk white like Jackson's face, neck and hands or uniform. A Dermatologist is not making MJ chalk white, either. I think he wore Chalk White makeup. A google search will show pictures and I found none that looked like Jackson. It takes an enormous amount of courage for those afflicted with the disease to go out in public and all of us should be supporting research into the disease to help these folks. Did Jackson ever make donations or support fundraisers for a search for a cure?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

1st, 2nd and voluntary manslaughter all have requirements of intentional ... in varying degrees. 2nd degree murder and voluntary manslaughter, intent can be implied with the requisite facts.

imo

Really in truly I understand that impartial...and in Murray's case it was intentional mal-usage of a drug which he should have known could kill someone..and in that case rises to "Intentional Disregard" for human life..kinda like is why the charged Phil Specter for 2nd degree..because he didnt intentionally want to kill Lana, but knew full well undertaking putting a loaded gun in someones mouth could, would and did just that..

Murray did not necessarily want to kill, MJ, however he acted reckless and with disregard for human life in undertaking infusion of Diprivan with that cocktail of other strong drugs (sedatives) onboard, which he gave..MJ didnt not take them himself..as some would like to believe...

So I guess, my querry was rhetorical...

LMS

[daniel green]

Of course he didn't likethe media calling him a pedophile, but he went on national television and said he sleeps with little boys. What did he expect?

He could not have expected any different.

[impartial]

I loved MJ's music starting with I Want You Back. He was an adorable child, a teen icon, and Thriller was outstanding ... both the music and the videos.

The media adored MJ until his behavior became bizarre ... fodder for the tabloids.

It all started after the Thriller album. He went from mild cosmetic surgery to completely morphing his looks. He went from taking Brooke Shields to events to McCauley Calkin, Webster, a chimp.

Man child is an oxymoron. Either you are a man or a child. Any man who prefers to be with adolescents over adults should be suspect. Any man who has a huge estate with numerous bedrooms and has adolescent boys share his bed instead of them sleeping in another room should be suspect ... I don't care if they are the coach, gardener, priest, or superstar.

The tabloids did not make these stories up ... they reported on them.

imo

[daniel green]

snipped I think, the older two knew far more than you think. imo

Of course they did. And the youngest one, too. I have never met a child of an addict (and that's 99% of the children I've worked with for 2 decades) who doesn't know. Or suffer.

[?WudScoobyDo]

snipped

The tabloids did not make these stories up ... they reported on them.

imo

I read once that MJ was taken by aliens. Do you happen to know how long he spent with them, and the particulars to how and when the aliens returned him to earth?

[daniel green]

I just want to clarify this - he did not say "sleep" he said "share"; he also said he slept on the floor.
Don't know if you ever saw his bed -- but it was custom made and was as wide as the wall behind it.
Nothing like a bed you or I would own.

snipped

Actually, that makes it much worse for me.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Of course they did. And the youngest one, too. I have never met a child of an addict (and that's 99% of the children I've worked with for 2 decades) who doesn't know. Or suffer.


I hope PK's children, if he has any, recover from their suffering.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Is that a rhetorical question?


I hardly think Murray is facing the death penalty. Unless an unruly fan gets to him first.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Link please........

Fresh out of links, care for bacon instead?

[daniel green]

You're forgetting the excuse that big bad Martin MADE MJ say and do those things.........or it was all edited to make it look that way..eyeroll.......

Oh, is that it? :confused: Made him sit there holding hands with that boy? Made him dangle his baby over a balcony? Etc?

[daniel green]

---------------------

and didnt u just love the part when MJ said he took the baby home minutes after it was born and did the cleaning himself when he got home. lol i dont think there is a doctor alive that would have allowed that. didnt happen imo

That was such an outrageous lie. As bold-faced as he'd only had two plastic surgeries.

[daniel green]

I hope PK's children, if he has any, recover from their suffering.

Don't understand this fixation with comparing MJ to Congressman Kennedy.:huh:

Kennedy does not have children, btw.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Oh, is that it? :confused: Made him sit there holding hands with that boy? Made him dangle his baby over a balcony? Etc?


You mean the same boy who laughed and joked about having brought the king of pop down, with his homies at school? The same boy who's mother admitted she was guilty of welfare fraud? The same boy who's mother extorted JC Penney's for a tidy sum of money. The same boy who changed his name to Anton Jackson?

[?WudScoobyDo]

Don't understand this fixation with comparing MJ to Congressman Kennedy.:huh:

Kennedy does not have children, btw.


Its not a fixation. They both share a problem common in this country and beyond. Its good to know he won't leave suffering children behind.

[daniel green]

Hi Lynda I have a question. Can you get versed by prescription?

As a patient?

NO WAY.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Really? Laughed and joked to who? Got a link? The boy didn't change his name to Anton either..........

...........laughable!..................


I've got my daughter's high school yearbook where Anton Jackson is pictured numerous times, probably because he was on the football team. Don't need a link, I believe my daughter, who shared classes with him. Did you know his mom's name now is Janet Jackson because she married a guy with the last name of Jackson, and evidently they thought it would be cool to change Gavin's name to Anton Jackson too.

[?WudScoobyDo]

---------------

and lets not forget the fact that the jurors also said they didnt like the mother..............thus a MJ innocent verdict. A star struck jury if ever i seen on. justice was not served. imo


If you believe 12 people were so star struck that they would allow a pedophile to run lose in THEIR COMMUNITY, then that is your perogative.

[daniel green]

The 1993 Settlement is quite a read. :scared:

[daniel green]

I guess he expected the rest of the world had innocent minds like he did.

That is just so weak. Pathetic, even.

[?WudScoobyDo]

The 1993 Settlement is quite a read. :scared:

The one where MJ admits no guilt? Tell me DG, would you accept a sum of money instead of punishment if your child was the victim of what MJ was accused of? Would money be enough?

[?WudScoobyDo]

I know his mother remarried and has the last name Jackson.

I don't believe your daughter....or you.


Guess what? I dont care. Everyone within 10 miles of the city of Los Alamitos knows it and I doubt they care if you believe it or not either.

[?WudScoobyDo]

--------------------

Dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen. imo

Tell that to Murray, not me.

[Nic99]

I've got my daughter's high school yearbook where Anton Jackson is pictured numerous times, probably because he was on the football team. Don't need a link, I believe my daughter, who shared classes with him. Did you know his mom's name now is Janet Jackson because she married a guy with the last name of Jackson, and evidently they thought it would be cool to change Gavin's name to Anton Jackson too.

I believe you and your daughter, that sounds totally plausible imo and doesn't surprise me one bit....

[daniel green]

Yep...how sad is that?

That poor little boy.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Well that mixed up old woman had issues of her own without being involved in MJ's life.

She didn't at all look mixed up when she appeared on tv 20 years ago. Besides who are you to decide who should be involved in anyone's life other than your own?

[?WudScoobyDo]

snipped

The most recent kid...poor thing...tried doing the right thing....and look what it got him.


Well it didn't get him the money he and his family were betting on with a conviction. I think it got him a first class ticket to that fiery pit we all have heard of.

[daniel green]

Actually, in the 93 Settlement, MJ agrees to pay for "claims of negligence." And the only claims of negligence in the complaint are rather stark and to the point.

[Nic99]

It would depend on my child....and what my child wanted and was willing to do. Would I want to put my child through a trial? Dunno.

Would I want the perp to pay with prison time? Absolutely! But ultimately, I would do whatever was in my child's best interest.

Having my family faced with death threats...no police protection available. The money in trust for my kid and the best treatment money could buy would be my choice, given the circumstances the Chandler's faced.

They were smart. imo

The most recent kid...poor thing...tried doing the right thing....and look what it got him.

Oh come on, they were only ever in it for the money. They could see the opportunity and pounced on it imo. These kids were not in that house alone with MJ, very often the parents stayed too. Hell, they obviously felt comfortable with the situation else they would never have allowed it.

I tell you one thing, money would not come into it where my kids are concerned. I would not accept one penny from someone who I may have believed had harmed my child. They were only ever after the money imo and exploited their child and MJ in the process imo.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I believe you and your daughter, that sounds totally plausible imo and doesn't surprise me one bit....

Thank you Nic. I have always appreciated your sensibility.

[daniel green]

Well that mixed up old woman had issues of her own without being involved in MJ's life.

Indeed. As to the picture of honesty, I think that ship sailed long ago with having affairs with hubands of friends and other married men.