8/26

[Firehead11]

.

Discussion board, yes. But none of us know for a certainty what Jackson experienced in his life. Was he using Demerol at the time of his death? We don't know. Do we know why he was using Demerol? Was it legitimate? Did the doctor that prescribed that have good records? Could this be the reason that Sneddon never brought up all the drugs found in Neverland because he certainly brought up Pepsi and alcohol. As much as he wanted to see Jackson in jail, if there were anything illegal in those drugs, I bet he tried to prosecute Jackson again. (JMO)

Can someone explain what the plastic surgery has to do with his death? He had plastic surgery, many times. So what. I know he lied about it and that made no sense at all BUT it was no ones business. So did Joan Rivers and many others. Not all surgeons do a good job. I agree with many posters, Jackson was a cute kid. Still a handsome young man when he went solo. The reasons behind all of the surgeries I can only speculate about.

His children. I cannot believe some of the things that have been said about his children. He "purchased" them. Well I guess that any parent that have paid a surrogate fee to a woman who carried a child for them, have paid for their children. And before you start... you have no idea what any of those children are experiencing right now either. Speculation about how uneducated they might be. They must have had no schooling, oh the home schooling teacher must not be good... blah blah blah... Again it was none of our business. Common sense will tell you that if his children are entering a school now, they will be tested to what level of education each one is at.

I don't agree with everything that Katherine Jackson has done lately but I would HOPE there are reasons for some of her actions. Maybe she doesn't want Michael buried until someone is charged for his death, maybe his children have said something to her. We don't know. I would also HOPE that Joe is not behind the fight for any control involving the estate.

Maybe I want this to go into a court so that all these records will be released to the public. It won't solve everything but it will (hopefully) answer a lot of questions that we all have. I guess that is part of it but like I have said before, I want to see this doctor charged, with at least the very minimum --- manslaughter. I was shocked to read all the drugs that he gave Jackson hours, prior to his death. He recklessly endanger a human life, he contributed to Jacksons death. Jackson may have asked for the drug but he did not ask to be put asleep permanently. This doctor was not qualified to use this drug and he certainly was not prepared for any emergency that could (and did) happen. I cannot think of any excuse for this doctor to have done this except for the money he was to earn.

One last thing, I have liked his music since he was part of the Jackson 5. Michael was just a few years younger than me, maybe that is the connection I feel to his life. I never joined a fan club of his and never saw him in concert. I wish that I would have. I do know he was a helluva performer. It is a shame that he is now gone.

[flipflop]

Law Enforcement Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray

Posted Aug 26th 2009 4:24AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner and the LAPD are not buying Dr. Conrad Murray's story that he gave Michael Jackson a relatively low dosage of Propofol before he died.

Sources say the L.A. County Coroner has determined Michael Jackson died from a lethal level of Propofol. There were "traces" of other drugs in Jackson's system, but nothing that would have killed him.

According to the search warrant affidavit, during Dr. Murray's interview with LAPD detectives two days after Jackson died, he said he gave Jackson 25 milligrams of Propofol shortly before the singer stopped breathing. Dr. Murray also said he had been giving Jackson 50 milligrams of Propofol for the prior six weeks so Jackson could sleep, but he felt the singer may have been forming an addiction so he cut back.

Here's the reality. It takes approximately 400 milligrams of Propofol for someone of Jackson's body size to sleep 8 hours -- that's 16 times the amount Dr. Murray says he gave Jackson the day he died.

Our law enforcement sources simply do not believe that 25 milligrams would have in any way compromised Michael Jackson, especially since he had developed a tolerance to a much higher level.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PIFBHI4k


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/law-enforcement-doesnt-believe-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-lethal-level/

[Mairi II]

[QUOTE=Firehead11;13402891].

{snipped for space}

Great post, Firehead!! :thumbsup:

[mrsmcgoo]

To address some of your points Firehead:

It is my opinion that LE were negligent in their duty when they discovered multiple bottles of prescription medication from different Dr.s and prescribed to various alias's back in 2004-2005 approx. Pictures of these medications have been published from the list of items seized at Neverland. I would like to know why this was never investigated. Obviously Dr.'s were illegally supplying these drugs and LE seemed to look the other way. Equally, those that allowed their names to be used or assisted in retrieving said medication needs to be held responsible. To the point...the enablers.

As far as the plastic surgery, it is not about how he mutilated his appearance. It is to me personally about the introduction of the medication used to sedate him during these procedures. I feel that this is how his addiction to Diprivan in particular occurred. It has been reported that MJ would be put under for everyday procedures. Procedures that a normal person would never be sedated for.

Dr. Murray's behaviour was the last in a long line of Dr.'s that were all to willing to accommodate MJ. The price was right sadly.

Would this have ever happened if back in 2004-2005 the LE had chosen to pursue the Dr.'s and MJ about these drugs? Sadly we will never know.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Great post, Firehead.

I think Sneddon thought more about his fantasy of putting MJ in prison for 20 years than ever going after him or the doctors who were prescribing all these drugs to MJ. I will always believe Sneddon moved on the false allegations because of politics but he wasn't willing to take the chance of coming down hard on all these high priced licensed doctors that had clout.

To charge the doctors would have conveyed that Sneddon was trying to help MJ by bringing the licensed drug pushers down and that was never ever going to happen. Had he done his job back then, since MJ would have had no priors, he could have gotten mandated treatment and put on probation. There would have been no Dr. "grossly incompetent" Murray because all the doctors would have known if they supply drugs to a drug addict they would go down too.

imo

[Barbara fl.]

.

Discussion board, yes. But none of us know for a certainty what Jackson experienced in his life. Was he using Demerol at the time of his death? We don't know. Do we know why he was using Demerol? Was it legitimate? Did the doctor that prescribed that have good records? Could this be the reason that Sneddon never brought up all the drugs found in Neverland because he certainly brought up Pepsi and alcohol. As much as he wanted to see Jackson in jail, if there were anything illegal in those drugs, I bet he tried to prosecute Jackson again. (JMO)

Can someone explain what the plastic surgery has to do with his death? He had plastic surgery, many times. So what. I know he lied about it and that made no sense at all BUT it was no ones business. So did Joan Rivers and many others. Not all surgeons do a good job. I agree with many posters, Jackson was a cute kid. Still a handsome young man when he went solo. The reasons behind all of the surgeries I can only speculate about.

His children. I cannot believe some of the things that have been said about his children. He "purchased" them. Well I guess that any parent that have paid a surrogate fee to a woman who carried a child for them, have paid for their children. And before you start... you have no idea what any of those children are experiencing right now either. Speculation about how uneducated they might be. They must have had no schooling, oh the home schooling teacher must not be good... blah blah blah... Again it was none of our business. Common sense will tell you that if his children are entering a school now, they will be tested to what level of education each one is at.

I don't agree with everything that Katherine Jackson has done lately but I would HOPE there are reasons for some of her actions. Maybe she doesn't want Michael buried until someone is charged for his death, maybe his children have said something to her. We don't know. I would also HOPE that Joe is not behind the fight for any control involving the estate.

Maybe I want this to go into a court so that all these records will be released to the public. It won't solve everything but it will (hopefully) answer a lot of questions that we all have. I guess that is part of it but like I have said before, I want to see this doctor charged, with at least the very minimum --- manslaughter. I was shocked to read all the drugs that he gave Jackson hours, prior to his death. He recklessly endanger a human life, he contributed to Jacksons death. Jackson may have asked for the drug but he did not ask to be put asleep permanently. This doctor was not qualified to use this drug and he certainly was not prepared for any emergency that could (and did) happen. I cannot think of any excuse for this doctor to have done this except for the money he was to earn.

One last thing, I have liked his music since he was part of the Jackson 5. Michael was just a few years younger than me, maybe that is the connection I feel to his life. I never joined a fan club of his and never saw him in concert. I wish that I would have. I do know he was a helluva performer. It is a shame that he is now gone.



I would be almost certain that an arrest is eminent....and this doctor should be arrested, he knew just what he was doing and what could have happened in doing it....and it did happen....

As for the talk going around, well I don't remember a celebrity's death where rumors didn't fly....for some unknown reason, people will not just let a person die, they have to continue with the bashing no matter what....

I expect Michael Jackson will be the topic for years to come...Elvis has never been able to rest in peace...

To me, Michael Jackson was a kind human being, I never believed the stories of him molesting young boys...I can not see that man hurting a hair on a child's head.....I believe he was a target for extortion....And if I am wrong, then he has met his maker...and he will have to answer to him

I wish the focus would be on these doctor's that give medication like it's candy....they are no better then a drug dealer, infact they are worse...

Rest in peace Michael....

[retiredcop]

Law Enforcement Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray

Posted Aug 26th 2009 4:24AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner and the LAPD are not buying Dr. Conrad Murray's story that he gave Michael Jackson a relatively low dosage of Propofol before he died.

Sources say the L.A. County Coroner has determined Michael Jackson died from a lethal level of Propofol. There were "traces" of other drugs in Jackson's system, but nothing that would have killed him.

According to the search warrant affidavit, during Dr. Murray's interview with LAPD detectives two days after Jackson died, he said he gave Jackson 25 milligrams of Propofol shortly before the singer stopped breathing. Dr. Murray also said he had been giving Jackson 50 milligrams of Propofol for the prior six weeks so Jackson could sleep, but he felt the singer may have been forming an addiction so he cut back.

Here's the reality. It takes approximately 400 milligrams of Propofol for someone of Jackson's body size to sleep 8 hours -- that's 16 times the amount Dr. Murray says he gave Jackson the day he died.

Our law enforcement sources simply do not believe that 25 milligrams would have in any way compromised Michael Jackson, especially since he had developed a tolerance to a much higher level.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PIFBHI4k


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/law-enforcement-doesnt-believe-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-lethal-level/

Bolding mine.

I will wait for the autopsy report as to how the death is ruled. I will also wait for the tox report as to the drugs in his body.

I won't be surprised at a homicide ruling. As I have said in the past I think it is an accidental overdose either at Mr Jackson own hand or another person.

If Dr Murray is the only doctor facing charges I will be disappointed. Many doctors have fed Mr Jackson's addictions. Many prescriptions were found in the rented house.

I feel Mr Jackson is responsible for his own drug additions and did not want to stop no matter what.

I believe a conviction would be hard to get in this case.

Drugs are used off label many times by many doctors and I don't see why Diprivan can't be used the same way.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Great post, Firehead.

I think Sneddon thought more about his fantasy of putting MJ in prison for 20 years than ever going after him or the doctors who were prescribing all these drugs to MJ. I will always believe Sneddon moved on the false allegations because of politics but he wasn't willing to take the chance of coming down hard on all these high priced licensed doctors that had clout.

To charge the doctors would have conveyed that Sneddon was trying to help MJ by bringing the licensed drug pushers down and that was never ever going to happen. Had he done his job back then, since MJ would have had no priors, he could have gotten mandated treatment and put on probation. There would have been no Dr. "grossly incompetent" Murray because all the doctors would have known if they supply drugs to a drug addict they would go down too.

imo

I thought we were NOT suppose to discuss the old case. IIRC you are one of the posters most vocal about that issue. Now if someone dares to answer you back then what will you say?:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

To address some of your points Firehead:

It is my opinion that LE were negligent in their duty when they discovered multiple bottles of prescription medication from different Dr.s and prescribed to various alias's back in 2004-2005 approx. Pictures of these medications have been published from the list of items seized at Neverland. I would like to know why this was never investigated. Obviously Dr.'s were illegally supplying these drugs and LE seemed to look the other way. Equally, those that allowed their names to be used or assisted in retrieving said medication needs to be held responsible. To the point...the enablers.

As far as the plastic surgery, it is not about how he mutilated his appearance. It is to me personally about the introduction of the medication used to sedate him during these procedures. I feel that this is how his addiction to Diprivan in particular occurred. It has been reported that MJ would be put under for everyday procedures. Procedures that a normal person would never be sedated for.

Dr. Murray's behaviour was the last in a long line of Dr.'s that were all to willing to accommodate MJ. The price was right sadly.

Would this have ever happened if back in 2004-2005 the LE had chosen to pursue the Dr.'s and MJ about these drugs? Sadly we will never know.

JMO


Point 1: I think that if Sneddon got any thing illegal on Jackson at that time, he would have tried to proscute. I doubt that he would have turned the other cheek about illegal drugs. As far as the enablers, could it be that there were no laws in place at that time? I don't know.


I get sedated for any tooth to be pulled while others do not. The burn could have been the beginning of the drugs, I don't know. But IIRC, the first plastic surgery was a bloched job. I understand your point, believe me I do.

That is how you have a discussion about an issue. But lets be truthful here, how many posters will not discuss things in that way? Rather he looked hidious, freakish, etc... just take a look at the remarks on this topic alone.

Thank You for the response. Maybe if more people posted in your manner, there might be some good come out of a sad death.

[Firehead11]

Bolding mine.

I will wait for the autopsy report as to how the death is ruled. I will also wait for the tox report as to the drugs in his body.

I won't be surprised at a homicide ruling. As I have said in the past I think it is an accidental overdose either at Mr Jackson own hand or another person.

If Dr Murray is the only doctor facing charges I will be disappointed. Many doctors have fed Mr Jackson's addictions. Many prescriptions were found in the rented house.

I feel Mr Jackson is responsible for his own drug additions and did not want to stop no matter what.

I believe a conviction would be hard to get in this case.

Drugs are used off label many times by many doctors and I don't see why Diprivan can't be used the same way.

in my opinion

I think this doctor will be the only one charged for manslaughter at the very least. He is the doctor who gave Jackson that fatal dose.

As far as enablers being charged, that might come down the road in a year or two. Maybe sooner in the Jackson death since it is rumored that Jackson's death was ruled a homicide.

[Rayosunshine]

Law Enforcement Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray

Posted Aug 26th 2009 4:24AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner and the LAPD are not buying Dr. Conrad Murray's story that he gave Michael Jackson a relatively low dosage of Propofol before he died.

Sources say the L.A. County Coroner has determined Michael Jackson died from a lethal level of Propofol. There were "traces" of other drugs in Jackson's system, but nothing that would have killed him.

According to the search warrant affidavit, during Dr. Murray's interview with LAPD detectives two days after Jackson died, he said he gave Jackson 25 milligrams of Propofol shortly before the singer stopped breathing. Dr. Murray also said he had been giving Jackson 50 milligrams of Propofol for the prior six weeks so Jackson could sleep, but he felt the singer may have been forming an addiction so he cut back.

Here's the reality. It takes approximately 400 milligrams of Propofol for someone of Jackson's body size to sleep 8 hours -- that's 16 times the amount Dr. Murray says he gave Jackson the day he died.

Our law enforcement sources simply do not believe that 25 milligrams would have in any way compromised Michael Jackson, especially since he had developed a tolerance to a much higher level.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PIFBHI4k


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/law-enforcement-doesnt-believe-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-lethal-level/

I don't believe Murray either, based on what is said and written. If he was so reckless in his care, why would he bother knowing how much of anything he would be giving MJ. He probably can't calculate a dosage, much calculate a drip rate for an IV if he had no pump. This "MD", in my opinion, has absolutely NO regard for life. I would hope there would be more that they could charge him with besides manslaughter. With his professional status, he was aware of the potential for harm/loss of life - I see that as premeditated, maybe not with intent, but premeditated anyway, in my mind. Sickening to say the least!

[Xenam]

I think this doctor will be the only one charged for manslaughter at the very least. He is the doctor who gave Jackson that fatal dose.

As far as enablers being charged, that might come down the road in a year or two. Maybe sooner in the Jackson death since it is rumored that Jackson's death was ruled a homicide.

Hi ya Fire.....

I wonder why this lethal dose of propofol that contributed to his death is considered a rumor and therefore would be homicide? This is stated on page 3 of the warrant and is based on the toxicology report. Am I not reading something correctly?

"Martinez told your affiant that he spoke to Dr. Sathyavagiswaran, the Chief Coroner for Los Angeles County, California who stated that according to the autopsy performed on Jackson the Coroner's Office determined, that at the time of his death, toxicology analysis showed that Michael Jackson had lethal levels of PROPOFOL in his blood."

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

[Rayosunshine]

Bolding mine.

I will wait for the autopsy report as to how the death is ruled. I will also wait for the tox report as to the drugs in his body.

I won't be surprised at a homicide ruling. As I have said in the past I think it is an accidental overdose either at Mr Jackson own hand or another person.

If Dr Murray is the only doctor facing charges I will be disappointed. Many doctors have fed Mr Jackson's addictions. Many prescriptions were found in the rented house.

I feel Mr Jackson is responsible for his own drug additions and did not want to stop no matter what.

I believe a conviction would be hard to get in this case.

Drugs are used off label many times by many doctors and I don't see why Diprivan can't be used the same way.

in my opinion

RC, I would love to borrow your rose colored glasses. It really doesn't matter who prescribed what to MJ and whether or not it was legal. What does matter is the last act that resulted in his death.

Why are you blind to the fact that Diprivan should NEVER be used outside a facility that has emergency care equipment? Do you have no clue how fast a person can die once they stop breathing and how hard it is to maintain airway and call for help if you are the only person available. FYI: an adult who is apneic will decline at a slower rate than a child/infant, but there is a threshold, which is abrupt, and once it is crossed, you will never bring them back (on paper it looks like a nice steady straight line that suddenly plummets to the depths of no return). I just don't understand this. Dr. M's use of this drug in the home, with his knowledge of the potential for harm/death is an act I would see as premeditated - knowing what harm could come beforel the fact, but disregarding that knowledge for his own gain. Sounds a little like murder for hire.

[mrsmcgoo]

I wonder why this lethal dose of propofol is considered a rumor? This is stated on page 3 of the warrant and is based on the toxicology report:

"Martinez told your affiant that he spoke to Dr. Sathyavagiswaran, the Chief Coroner for Los Angeles County, California who stated that according to the autopsy performed on Jackson the Coroner's Office determined, that at the time of his death, toxicology analysis showed that Michael Jackson had lethal levels of PROPOFOL in his blood."

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf


I don't feel it is a rumor, but I think some posters are more comfortable stating it as rumor until the completed coroner's report is released to the public.

I think it is all good. :thumbsup:

JMO

[Xenam]

I think this doctor will be the only one charged for manslaughter at the very least. He is the doctor who gave Jackson that fatal dose.

As far as enablers being charged, that might come down the road in a year or two. Maybe sooner in the Jackson death since it is rumored that Jackson's death was ruled a homicide.

I do believe Dr. Murray will be the only doctor charged with manslaughter as well. If any other doctors are charged it will be for over-prescribing medication and knowingly writing prescriptions in other people's names. I suspect the Medical Board may also revoke or suspend some licenses. JMO

[Rayosunshine]

I don't feel it is a rumor, but I think some posters are more comfortable stating it as rumor until the completed coroner's report is released to the public.

I think it is all good. :thumbsup:

JMO

Wouldn't you think there would be no names associated with the information if it were not accurate. A Dr.'s name is listed. Usually you'll read a "he said, she said, or unnamed source" as the info giver - those are the ones that I wait on, but not in this case. I tend to think that there was a lethal level of propofol, considering the long half-life of the drug and that one person may clear more than another, given different body chemistries, resulting in the stacking effect. Dr. M probably didn't remember this about drugs.

[mrsmcgoo]

Wouldn't you think there would be no names associated with the information if it were not accurate. A Dr.'s name is listed. Usually you'll read a "he said, she said, or unnamed source" as the info giver - those are the ones that I wait on, but not in this case. I tend to think that there was a lethal level of propofol, considering the long half-life of the drug and that one person may clear more than another, given different body chemistries, resulting in the stacking effect. Dr. M probably didn't remember this about drugs.

Oh yes, I do agree! :thumbup:

I was just referring to others stating the new information as "rumor". I respect their opinion, as the offical documents have not been released.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

I don't believe Murray either, based on what is said and written. If he was so reckless in his care, why would he bother knowing how much of anything he would be giving MJ. He probably can't calculate a dosage, much calculate a drip rate for an IV if he had no pump. This "MD", in my opinion, has absolutely NO regard for life. I would hope there would be more that they could charge him with besides manslaughter. With his professional status, he was aware of the potential for harm/loss of life - I see that as premeditated, maybe not with intent, but premeditated anyway, in my mind. Sickening to say the least!

By the looks of the poll on TMZ very very few believe Dr. Murray.

What Dr. Murray says does not make sense. He said he cutback on Propovol but he has one big problem. MJ died from a lethal OVERDOSE of Propovol.

imo

[Cindylee]

To address some of your points Firehead:

It is my opinion that LE were negligent in their duty when they discovered multiple bottles of prescription medication from different Dr.s and prescribed to various alias's back in 2004-2005 approx. Pictures of these medications have been published from the list of items seized at Neverland. I would like to know why this was never investigated. Obviously Dr.'s were illegally supplying these drugs and LE seemed to look the other way. Equally, those that allowed their names to be used or assisted in retrieving said medication needs to be held responsible. To the point...the enablers.

As far as the plastic surgery, it is not about how he mutilated his appearance. It is to me personally about the introduction of the medication used to sedate him during these procedures. I feel that this is how his addiction to Diprivan in particular occurred. It has been reported that MJ would be put under for everyday procedures. Procedures that a normal person would never be sedated for.

Dr. Murray's behaviour was the last in a long line of Dr.'s that were all to willing to accommodate MJ. The price was right sadly.

Would this have ever happened if back in 2004-2005 the LE had chosen to pursue the Dr.'s and MJ about these drugs? Sadly we will never know.

JMO

Mrsmcgoo: You've got mail, and a full mailbox. :ohmy::laugh:

[Xenam]

RC, I would love to borrow your rose colored glasses. It really doesn't matter who prescribed what to MJ and whether or not it was legal. What does matter is the last act that resulted in his death.

Why are you blind to the fact that Diprivan should NEVER be used outside a facility that has emergency care equipment? Do you have no clue how fast a person can die once they stop breathing and how hard it is to maintain airway and call for help if you are the only person available. FYI: an adult who is apneic will decline at a slower rate than a child/infant, but there is a threshold, which is abrupt, and once it is crossed, you will never bring them back (on paper it looks like a nice steady straight line that suddenly plummets to the depths of no return). I just don't understand this. Dr. M's use of this drug in the home, with his knowledge of the potential for harm/death is an act I would see as premeditated - knowing what harm could come beforel the fact, but disregarding that knowledge for his own gain. Sounds a little like murder for hire.

Just to add to your post if I may. Not only did he not have the proper equipment he, to my knowledge, had no training in administering anasthesia. I think is where the biggest problem lies. An untrained physician administering anasthesia, off-label with no mandatory monitoring equipment. The literature does not say the monitoring is optional -- but does say it MUST BE IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE. Dr Murray should have also been giving him the diprivan in lower doses over a period of time due to the sedatives he gave prior to JMO

For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia

Patients should be continuously monitored for early signs of hypotension, apnea, airway obstruction, and/or oxygen desaturation. These cardiorespiratory effects are more likely to occur following rapid bolus administration,

Slower rates of administration should be utilized in premedicated patients

For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia[B] and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. [B]Patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately available."

http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm

[Xenam]

Wouldn't you think there would be no names associated with the information if it were not accurate. A Dr.'s name is listed. Usually you'll read a "he said, she said, or unnamed source" as the info giver - those are the ones that I wait on, but not in this case. I tend to think that there was a lethal level of propofol, considering the long half-life of the drug and that one person may clear more than another, given different body chemistries, resulting in the stacking effect. Dr. M probably didn't remember this about drugs.

It is also stated as part of an affidavit.

[retiredcop]

I think this doctor will be the only one charged for manslaughter at the very least. He is the doctor who gave Jackson that fatal dose.

As far as enablers being charged, that might come down the road in a year or two. Maybe sooner in the Jackson death since it is rumored that Jackson's death was ruled a homicide.

________________________________________________
Again I'm still wondering how 25mg of Dirprivan is a lethal dosage since it was in a drip IV and Dr Murray had been giving him 50mg of Diprivan every day for six weeks. Mr Jackson even had to have built up a tolerance. This is why I am waiting for the Autopsy report and tox report.

Again we don't even know what medical equipment was in that room.

All the information being reported on is from an old search warrant from July 22. This investigation just may have changed with further interviews ect. Just saying.

in my opinion

[Xenam]

________________________________________________
Again I'm still wondering how 25mg of Dirprivan is a lethal dosage since it was in a drip IV and Dr Murray had been giving him 50mg of Diprivan every day for six weeks. Mr Jackson even had to have built up a tolerance. This is why I am waiting for the Autopsy report and tox report.

Again we don't even know what medical equipment was in that room.

All the information being reported on is from an old search warrant from July 22. This investigation just may have changed with further interviews ect. Just saying.

in my opinion

Dr Murray had also pre-medicated him with sedatives. The 25mg should NOT have been given all at once. See above post and link

[mrsmcgoo]

Mrsmcgoo: You've got mail, and a full mailbox. :ohmy:

Stop that or you're going in the corner!! :laugh: :wink:

I was reading here about some MJ staff wanting to speak out about that morning.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/26/jackson-employees-want-to-speak-out-regarding-singers-death/

[GentleBreeze]

Xenam,

Even Dr. Vincent DiMaio agrees with what you have posted.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

Excerpt:

Will it be possible for the doctor to argue his case as a medical mistake, a case of negligence, not homicide?
You just can’t argue this one. Here’s the problem question for him: what is the medical justification for giving him this drug? And that’s where they’ve got him, because there is no medical reason for the situation he was in. He wasn’t even doing an operative procedure and there was no anesthesiologist. Moreover, he’s an internist. Even if the drug were warranted, the conditions would be inappropriate. It’s not his specialty, its not internal medicine and there were no support personnel.

imo

[Cindylee]

Stop that or you're going in the corner!! :wink:

I was reading here about some MJ staff wanting to speak out about that morning.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/26/jackson-employees-want-to-speak-out-regarding-singers-death/

Nooooooo not the corner. :ohmy:

That was a very interesting article. Good find. Why in the world would LAPD stonewall two people who were there? You would think they would have been the first people the police would want to talk to. :confused:

[Cindylee]

Xenam,

Even Dr. Vincent DiMaio agrees with what you have posted.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

Excerpt:

Will it be possible for the doctor to argue his case as a medical mistake, a case of negligence, not homicide?
You just can’t argue this one. Here’s the problem question for him: what is the medical justification for giving him this drug? And that’s where they’ve got him, because there is no medical reason for the situation he was in. He wasn’t even doing an operative procedure and there was no anesthesiologist. Moreover, he’s an internist. Even if the drug were warranted, the conditions would be inappropriate. It’s not his specialty, its not internal medicine and there were no support personnel.

imo

I think Murray is already planning his defense with the fact that he says that MJ was addicted to the Diprovan, and he was trying to ween him off of it. We have heard to same in another case.

[Xenam]

Nooooooo not the corner. :ohmy:

That was a very interesting article. Good find. Why in the world would LAPD stonewall two people who were there? You would think they would have been the first people the police would want to talk to. :confused:

That is the same question I have :confused:

[daniel green]

.


His children. I cannot believe some of the things that have been said about his children. He "purchased" them. snipped.

That is not about his children, for petesakes. That is about MJ.

No matter how many times someone posts that terrible things have been said about the children, it is just untrue. It has not happened on this board. Period.

[Firehead11]

Hi ya Fire.....

I wonder why this lethal dose of propofol that contributed to his death is considered a rumor and therefore would be homicide? This is stated on page 3 of the warrant and is based on the toxicology report. Am I not reading something correctly?

"Martinez told your affiant that he spoke to Dr. Sathyavagiswaran, the Chief Coroner for Los Angeles County, California who stated that according to the autopsy performed on Jackson the Coroner's Office determined, that at the time of his death, toxicology analysis showed that Michael Jackson had lethal levels of PROPOFOL in his blood."

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf


You know how I feel about this but I didn't want the three day back and forth argument to start all over again. I believe that the information in the Search Warrant application is true. The officer that filed that application had to swear to it to be the truth. But others won't believe it until they see the actual reports. I can understand that since I would want to read things for myself.

[daniel green]

.

Was he using Demerol at the time of his death? We don't know. Do we know why he was using Demerol? Was it legitimate? Did the doctor that prescribed that have good records? snipped.

There is no legitimate reason outside of, perhaps, a hospice nurse administering it to a dying patient, of anyone having demerol injectibles at home, nor to have Versed at home. Ever.

[Xenam]

Xenam,

Even Dr. Vincent DiMaio agrees with what you have posted.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

Excerpt:

Will it be possible for the doctor to argue his case as a medical mistake, a case of negligence, not homicide?
You just can’t argue this one. Here’s the problem question for him: what is the medical justification for giving him this drug? And that’s where they’ve got him, because there is no medical reason for the situation he was in. He wasn’t even doing an operative procedure and there was no anesthesiologist. Moreover, he’s an internist. Even if the drug were warranted, the conditions would be inappropriate. It’s not his specialty, its not internal medicine and there were no support personnel.

imo


Thanks GB. Interesting. More from your link and then he goes on to explain the difference between homicide and manslaughter below this excerpt:

By classifying this death as a homicide, what is the Los Angeles County Coroner’s Office saying about the actions of Jackson’s doctor?

What they’re alleging is that [Michael Jackson’s doctor] gave [Jackson] a medication for a non-medical reason and that caused the death…The reason they can classify this as a homicide is that there is simply no medical reason for this drug to have been administered. Suppose he was in surgery, and the doctor had given him too much medication. That’s a different situation which would probably be signed off on as an accident. But in this situation, it’s clearly a homicide.

[GentleBreeze]

I think Murray is already planning his defense with the fact that he says that MJ was addicted to the Diprovan, and he was trying to ween him off of it. We have heard to same in another case.

I think that is a hard sell. Murray himself says he realizes the 6 weeks of driprivan may have made MJ addicted to the drug and that is why he said he cutback.

Hard to say he cutback when the patient died of a lethal overdose of Provovol which Murray admits to giving him for 6 weeks prior to his death including the morning his patient died.

Now the traces of the other drugs, I suppose he can say he had cutback since it seems they were not in lethal amounts but the Propovol, the real nasty potential killer drug that caused MJs death? Imo he will not be able to sell that.

imo

[Unperson1984]

Just to add to your post if I may. Not only did he not have the proper equipment he, to my knowledge, had no training in administering anasthesia. I think is where the biggest problem lies. An untrained physician administering anasthesia, off-label with no mandatory monitoring equipment. The literature does not say the monitoring is optional -- but does say it MUST BE IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE. Dr Murray should have also been giving him the diprivan in lower doses over a period of time due to the sedatives he gave prior to JMO

For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia

Patients should be continuously monitored for early signs of hypotension, apnea, airway obstruction, and/or oxygen desaturation. These cardiorespiratory effects are more likely to occur following rapid bolus administration,

Slower rates of administration should be utilized in premedicated patients

For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia[B] and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. [B]Patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately available."

http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm

Reading what Murray told LAPD about watching Dr Adams administer diprivan, I have a feeling that was a training session for Murray.

IMO

[Firehead11]

That is not about his children, for petesakes. That is about MJ.

No matter how many times someone posts that terrible things have been said about the children, it is just untrue. It has not happened on this board. Period.


You have been asked at least twice do not snip a post. Once by a poster and once by Coldwater.

I am not going to go and get all the things that have been said about the CHILDREN.

It has happened. Period.

[daniel green]

Hi ya Fire.....

I wonder why this lethal dose of propofol that contributed to his death is considered a rumor and therefore would be homicide? This is stated on page 3 of the warrant and is based on the toxicology report. Am I not reading something correctly?

"Martinez told your affiant that he spoke to Dr. Sathyavagiswaran, the Chief Coroner for Los Angeles County, California who stated that according to the autopsy performed on Jackson the Coroner's Office determined, that at the time of his death, toxicology analysis showed that Michael Jackson had lethal levels of PROPOFOL in his blood."

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

And from pg 24, line 11

Inasmuch as it cannot be determined if the cause of death is the result of a single night and/or a single doctor, or the grossly negligent treatment over an extended period of time, your affiant believes that MJ's medical records are necessary.

[Xenam]

Reading what Murray told LAPD about watching Dr Adams administer diprivan, I have a feeling that was a training session for Murray.

IMO

Did you see the link I posted? Dr. Adams said Dr. Murray is a liar and so did Nurse Lee.

[Firehead11]

Just so ya know....a deal was reached between the defense and the prosecution. No mention of the drugs....if the countless celebs the defense listed didn't testify.

IMO It wouldn't have made any difference. The jury wouldn't have convicted him.

IMO The prosecution was less concerned with what MJ was doing to himself than they were with what he had been doing with boys in his bed. Personally, I think the jury should have known he was high on Demerol while sharing his bed. BUT again....wouldn't have mattered. imo

Link to deal, please.

[Poochie Pie]

By the looks of the poll on TMZ very very few believe Dr. Murray.

What Dr. Murray says does not make sense. He said he cutback on Propovol but he has one big problem. MJ died from a lethal OVERDOSE of Propovol.

imo Absolutely correct, GB..!! That is what I just can't understand about "some" who just can't see that there is wrong doing involved.. I respect their opinions, BUT... every little snippet leaking here and there states "A LETHAL level of propofol" in his toxicology report... IF the reports are true... LETHAL pretty well sums it up.. "Too much".. "not the safe level".. "a level causing imminent death".. How many ways do they need to explain it..?? IMO

Poochie

[daniel green]

You have been asked at least twice do not snip a post. Once by a poster and once by Coldwater.
snipped.

No, I have not been asked by CW not to snip posts. In fact, CW ENCOURAGES the snipping of posts so the pages turn faster for folks on dial-up.

And, no, nothing negative has ever been posted about the children here.

[mrsmcgoo]

Nooooooo not the corner. :ohmy:

That was a very interesting article. Good find. Why in the world would LAPD stonewall two people who were there? You would think they would have been the first people the police would want to talk to. :confused:

That's what I thought too, makes no sense. :confused:

Very few can verify anything that Dr. Murray has reported in regards to the timeline...you would think these witnesses would be interviewed, and interviewed, and interviewed again.

JMO

[Firehead11]

Did you see the link I posted? Dr. Adams said Dr. Murray is a liar and so did Nurse Lee.

It doesn't matter Xenam. It will turn out that Adams is the liar and Lee and Murray are just great !

[daniel green]

Reading what Murray told LAPD about watching Dr Adams administer diprivan, I have a feeling that was a training session for Murray.

IMO

You know what, I had the exact same thought myself. Dr Adams (who was the subject of this very same Affidavit) was conducting a training session. Especially given the timing--just before MJ hired Murray.

[daniel green]

Just so ya know....a deal was reached between the defense and the prosecution. No mention of the drugs....if the countless celebs the defense listed didn't testify.

snipped

Ahhhhhhhhh. I did not know that.

Thank you!

[daniel green]

What, if any, equiptment Murray had in that rented house makes not one whit of difference in terms of charging him with manslaughter. Not one whit.

Either MJ died as a result of that overdose of diprivan, or he died as a result of a decade of using diprivan and countless other drugs. That is what the DA will consider when charging.

The non-equipment (and it is my belief he had it, since MJ was being monitored with a pulse-ox) makes not a bit of difference in a criminal case. Might in the wrongful death one--because that is a civil matter.

[GentleBreeze]

You know how I feel about this but I didn't want the three day back and forth argument to start all over again. I believe that the information in the Search Warrant application is true. The officer that filed that application had to swear to it to be the truth. But others won't believe it until they see the actual reports. I can understand that since I would want to read things for myself.

That is exactly how I feel FH.

Yesterday a DA on HLN said that this is a record of fact as it stands now and no one under oath has refuted it. A seasoned police officer has sworn their affidavit is true and they do so under the penalty of perjury.

I do believe it to be true but like everyone else, I would like to read the actual autopsy report myself. That may not happen anytime soon though if they do bring criminal charges against Murray.

imo

[daniel green]

That is exactly how I feel FH.

Yesterday a DA on HLN said that this is a record of fact as it stands now and no one under oath has refuted it. A seasoned police officer has sworn their affidavit is true and they do so under the penalty of perjury.

snipped

How could, in any universe, a search warrant application be a statement of fact? :confused::huh::blush:

Did you read it? Did you see that it is what Murray told police, what the ex nanny told police, what staff told police, what Jackson family told police, what unidentified callers told police, etc?

[Firehead11]

That is exactly how I feel FH.

Yesterday a DA on HLN said that this is a record of fact as it stands now and no one under oath has refuted it. A seasoned police officer has sworn their affidavit is true and they do so under the penalty of perjury.

I do believe it to be true but like everyone else, I would like to read the actual autopsy report myself. That may not happen anytime soon though if they do bring criminal charges against Murray.

imo

Did you notice how fast that post about that deal being made about the drugs was accepted with no link but the link to the sworn search warrant application is not believed?

Oh boy.

[Firehead11]

No, it never happened.

Well how would you know since you joined today and have posted 18 posts already?

[daniel green]

[B]Absolutely correct, GB..!! That is what I just can't understand about "some" who just can't see that there is wrong doing involved.. I respect their opinions, BUT... every little snippet leaking here and there states "A LETHAL level of propofol" in his toxicology report... snipped]

The Affidavit does, indeed, say that. That the prelim tox report and the prelim assessment shows a lethal amount of diprivan/propofol.

The Affidavit also clearly states that they don't know if the death was caused from the one night's actions, or the over 20 yrs of drug abuse. Also, that they don't know (per several statutes they list) if any other person or physician aided or abetted.

Thems the facts.

[Unperson1984]

Did you see the link I posted? Dr. Adams said Dr. Murray is a liar and so did Nurse Lee.

Would you expect any of them to admit to anything at this point? If it never happened how would Murray know anything about Dr David Adams, or name an office where it took place?

[daniel green]

Would you expect any of them to admit to anything at this point? If it never happened how would Murray know anything about Dr David Adams, or name an office where it took place?

Excellent point, Unperson! It it never happened, how would Murray know? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Xenam]

No, I have not been asked by CW not to snip posts. In fact, CW ENCOURAGES the snipping of posts so the pages turn faster for folks on dial-up.

And, no, nothing negative has ever been posted about the children here.

No -- only LENGTHY posts and not in the middle of statements when it takes what is said out of context. Perhaps you missed CW's message to you




Nah. A coma is not restful. Just like that laundry list of meds he was taking--hardcore addict.

As per rules, snipping posts that takes it out of context is not permissable. We encourage snipping long post but they must show exactly what the original poster meant.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=357665&page=16

[?WudScoobyDo]

How could, in any universe, a search warrant application be a statement of fact? :confused::huh::blush:

Did you read it? Did you see that it is what Murray told police, what the ex nanny told police, what staff told police, what Jackson family told police, what unidentified callers told police, etc?


To quote the "Search Warrant and Affidavit"

Peace officer (named here), SWEARS UNDER OATH THAT THE FACTS EXPRESSED BY HIM, IN THE ATTACHED AND INCORPORATED AFFIDAVIT ARE TRUE AND BASED THEREON HE HAS PROBABLY CAUSE TO BELIEVE....)

Statement of Probable Cause

"Affiant declares UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOLLOWING FACTS ARE TRUE....."
(PG 16 OF 32)

I believe that both Texas and California are a part of this universe. Hope I helped clear up the confusion.

[daniel green]

Xenam, I did not. You have no idea of any subsequent conversation with CW about it.

Snipping posts is encouraged.

[Firehead11]

No -- only LENGTHY posts and not in the middle of statements when it takes what is said out of context. Perhaps you missed CW's message to you



http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=357665&page=16


It is fine. I base my opinion on peoples actions. Those actions speak louder than words, IMO, that is why I use my iggy button and have to adjust that list at least once a week.

[impartial]

Did you see the link I posted? Dr. Adams said Dr. Murray is a liar and so did Nurse Lee.


If that's the link that was posted yesterday, Adams said that he never administered diprivan in a cosmetologist's office, and refused to answer whether he administered diprivan any other time or place. It was a response to a specific statement in the search warrant ... which the declarant could have meant dermotologist instead of cosmotologist.

I don't view that statement as calling Murray a liar, but rather that he didn't administer it in a cosmotologist's office.

imo

[daniel green]

To quote the "Search Warrant and Affidavit"

snipped.

I know what it says and what a search warrant and affidavit means.

But thank you loads!

An Affidavit is not, not in any universe, a statement of fact. The officer swears that those things were told to him/her and that he knows things (such as the prelim tox reports and the fact DEA has not found any purchase of propofol to Murray) to be true.

The Affidavit (pgs 2-15 which are missing from what we have read, btw) which goes to an LA County, State of NC judge, was filed in support of searching the premises of all those doctors mentioned and nurse Lee.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

[Xenam]

Xenam, I did not. You have no idea of any subsequent conversation about it.

Snipping posts is encouraged.

What I do know is that you have a habit of snipping posts and statements are taken out of context. You have done it to me numerous times.

[Cindylee]

You have been asked at least twice do not snip a post. Once by a poster and once by Coldwater.

I am not going to go and get all the things that have been said about the CHILDREN.

It has happened. Period.

Firhead, you know as well as everyone who posts on boards like this, one thing leads to another. MJ was a "star" and people are curious about his life. Up until his death, we didn't really know much about his kids. We saw only the strange things, the balcony, the masks, etc, that the media showed us. I haven't seen anyone say anything bad about the kids. It is more about MJ's role in, how they grew up, and their future. Everything I have seen that has been critical, is about the adults in the kids lives, not the kids. All of this sort of thing used to be talked about around the water cooler. The internet is a huge water cooler.

[Xenam]

I know what it says and what a search warrant and affidavit means.

But thank you loads!

An Affidavit is not, not in any universe, a statement of fact. The officer swears that those things were told to him/her and that he knows things (such as the prelim tox reports and the fact DEA has not found any purchase of propofol to Murray) to be true.

The Affidavit (pgs 2-15 which are missing from what we have read, btw) which goes to an LA County, State of NC judge, was filed in support of searching the premises of all those doctors mentioned and nurse Lee.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

Huh? :confused:

"An affidavit is a sworn, written statement made under oath by the person signing the statement. The identity of the person making the statement and the contents of the statement comprising the affidavit are usually verified by a notary public, who will place his or her notary seal on the written statement. Because it is a verified statement made under oath, an affidavit is essentially your promise that the information contained in your affidavit is true and correct, and it is the equivalent of testimony before a court. Accordingly, if you are ever making any statement in an affidavit, you should be particularly concerned about the accuracy of your statement and you should make sure that you simply telling the truth.

The purpose of an affidavit is usually for use in court proceedings to provide factual evidence or to prove up documents, records or other evidence."

[daniel green]

To quote the "Search Warrant and Affidavit"

Peace officer (named here), SWEARS UNDER OATH THAT THE FACTS EXPRESSED BY HIM, IN THE ATTACHED AND INCORPORATED AFFIDAVIT ARE TRUE AND BASED THEREON HE HAS PROBABLY CAUSE TO BELIEVE....)

snipped.

There ya go. In the attached and incorporated affidavit which says that Murray left the room only to go to the bathroom, that 25 mg was administered, that Murray watched Adams give MJ propofol, which the other anesthesiologist (Rosen?) had Adams give MJ propofol in LV, as well, that Murray believes Lee gave MJ propofol, that MJ had needle marks on feet and hands, etc etc etc.

Now none of those are statement of facts. In any court. In any universe. The police officer has probable cause to believe...

[?WudScoobyDo]

.

Discussion board, yes. But none of us know for a certainty what Jackson experienced in his life. Was he using Demerol at the time of his death? We don't know. Do we know why he was using Demerol? Was it legitimate? Did the doctor that prescribed that have good records? Could this be the reason that Sneddon never brought up all the drugs found in Neverland because he certainly brought up Pepsi and alcohol. As much as he wanted to see Jackson in jail, if there were anything illegal in those drugs, I bet he tried to prosecute Jackson again. (JMO)

Can someone explain what the plastic surgery has to do with his death? He had plastic surgery, many times. So what. I know he lied about it and that made no sense at all BUT it was no ones business. So did Joan Rivers and many others. Not all surgeons do a good job. I agree with many posters, Jackson was a cute kid. Still a handsome young man when he went solo. The reasons behind all of the surgeries I can only speculate about.

His children. I cannot believe some of the things that have been said about his children. He "purchased" them. Well I guess that any parent that have paid a surrogate fee to a woman who carried a child for them, have paid for their children. And before you start... you have no idea what any of those children are experiencing right now either. Speculation about how uneducated they might be. They must have had no schooling, oh the home schooling teacher must not be good... blah blah blah... Again it was none of our business. Common sense will tell you that if his children are entering a school now, they will be tested to what level of education each one is at.

I don't agree with everything that Katherine Jackson has done lately but I would HOPE there are reasons for some of her actions. Maybe she doesn't want Michael buried until someone is charged for his death, maybe his children have said something to her. We don't know. I would also HOPE that Joe is not behind the fight for any control involving the estate.

Maybe I want this to go into a court so that all these records will be released to the public. It won't solve everything but it will (hopefully) answer a lot of questions that we all have. I guess that is part of it but like I have said before, I want to see this doctor charged, with at least the very minimum --- manslaughter. I was shocked to read all the drugs that he gave Jackson hours, prior to his death. He recklessly endanger a human life, he contributed to Jacksons death. Jackson may have asked for the drug but he did not ask to be put asleep permanently. This doctor was not qualified to use this drug and he certainly was not prepared for any emergency that could (and did) happen. I cannot think of any excuse for this doctor to have done this except for the money he was to earn.

One last thing, I have liked his music since he was part of the Jackson 5. Michael was just a few years younger than me, maybe that is the connection I feel to his life. I never joined a fan club of his and never saw him in concert. I wish that I would have. I do know he was a helluva performer. It is a shame that he is now gone.


Great post to introduce a new day. In the darkness of this day of national mourning, respectable and reasonable posts like this brings a sliver of light into that darkness. ( At least for me it does)

Thank you Firehead.:patriot:

[daniel green]

If that's the link that was posted yesterday, Adams said that he never administered diprivan in a cosmetologist's office, and refused to answer whether he administered diprivan any other time or place. It was a response to a specific statement in the search warrant ... which the declarant could have meant dermotologist instead of cosmotologist.

I don't view that statement as calling Murray a liar, but rather that he didn't administer it in a cosmotologist's office.

imo

I agree. I think that detective Martinez had to mean dermatologist's office, but who knows? For all we know it could have been a cosmetologist's office as it says in the Affidavit. Heck, what were the chances anyone would have thought anyone would be getting induced into a diprivan coma at home, night after night, for a decade? :scared:

[impartial]

Huh? :confused:

"An affidavit is a sworn, written statement made under oath by the person signing the statement. The identity of the person making the statement and the contents of the statement comprising the affidavit are usually verified by a notary public, who will place his or her notary seal on the written statement. Because it is a verified statement made under oath, an affidavit is essentially your promise that the information contained in your affidavit is true and correct, and it is the equivalent of testimony before a court. Accordingly, if you are ever making any statement in an affidavit, you should be particularly concerned about the accuracy of your statement and you should make sure that you simply telling the truth.

The purpose of an affidavit is usually for use in court proceedings to provide factual evidence or to prove up documents, records or other evidence."


The difference between a statement in a search warrant and court ... the hearsay statements are inadmissible in court unless they fall within a specific exception to the hearsay rule.

The affidavit in the search warrant is entirely based on hearsay.

imo

[Xenam]

The Affidavit does, indeed, say that. That the prelim tox report and the prelim assessment shows a lethal amount of diprivan/propofol.

The Affidavit also clearly states that they don't know if the death was caused from the one night's actions, or the over 20 yrs of drug abuse. Also, that they don't know (per several statutes they list) if any other person or physician aided or abetted.

Thems the facts.

Where does it say preliminary assessment? It specifically says based on a toxocology analysis which we know took them weeks to do and states the name of the Chief Coroner of LA.

He had other drugs in his system however the amount of propofol found was LETHAL

It is obvious to me they need to find out how the drugs in his system interacted with the propofol

[Unperson1984]

If that's the link that was posted yesterday, Adams said that he never administered diprivan in a cosmetologist's office, and refused to answer whether he administered diprivan any other time or place. It was a response to a specific statement in the search warrant ... which the declarant could have meant dermotologist instead of cosmotologist.

I don't view that statement as calling Murray a liar, but rather that he didn't administer it in a cosmotologist's office.

imo

Exactly! It was a precise denial to the exact language in the warrant affidavit, not a blanket denial of administering diprivan.

I’ve worked in politics enough years to recognize a well parsed denial when I read one.

:wink:

[daniel green]

A statement of fact is only given by the Judge at end of a case--where the Judge states that this, that and the other have been proven as a matter of fact.

[daniel green]

Where does it say preliminary? It specifically says based on a toxocology analysis which we know took them weeks to do and states the name of the Chief Coroner of LA.

Yes, it does. It says prelimary tox report and prelimary assessment.

[?WudScoobyDo]

There ya go. In the attached and incorporated affidavit which says that Murray left the room only to go to the bathroom, that 25 mg was administered, that Murray watched Adams give MJ propofol, which the other anesthesiologist (Rosen?) had Adams give MJ propofol in LV, as well, that Murray believes Lee gave MJ propofol, that MJ had needle marks on feet and hands, etc etc etc.

Now none of those are statement of facts. In any court. In any universe. The police officer has probable cause to believe...


His sworn statement is to the best of his knowledge, as is every sworn statement. The stated facts are based in part on Dr. Murray's statement. And I agree they are not the true facts, but they are the facts as told by the Doctor, who I believe did lie. And evidently the detectives didn't believe him either.

[?WudScoobyDo]

The difference between a statement in a search warrant and court ... the hearsay statements are inadmissible in court unless they fall within a specific exception to the hearsay rule.

The affidavit in the search warrant is entirely based on hearsay.

imo

The hearsay of Dr. Murray. Isn't the statement in a search warrant a necessary step to obtain evidence to support bringing the case to trial?

[daniel green]

What I do know is that you have a habit of snipping posts and statements are taken out of context. You have done it to me numerous times.

I am going to address this once.

I was Dxd with MS many years ago. It affects vision in my left eye, and makes it very difficult--during times of flare-ups--for me to see well out of that eye, despite Lasik surgery--particularly on two-colored surfaces, or with signs that are blinking or have any kind of motion, and MOST especially, when reading large portions of lettering. I have found it easier for me, over the years, to just snip the part I am answering, and have found that it is what CTV, formerly, and now IS encourages.

[impartial]

Exactly! It was a precise denial to the exact language in the warrant affidavit, not a blanket denial of administering diprivan.

I’ve worked in politics enough years to recognize a well parsed denial when I read one.

:wink:


My personal favorite .... I do not recall at this time.

:D

[daniel green]

Exactly! It was a precise denial to the exact language in the warrant affidavit, not a blanket denial of administering diprivan.

I’ve worked in politics enough years to recognize a well parsed denial when I read one.

:wink:

Yep! It was almost comical, the carefully parsed non-denial.

[daniel green]

My personal favorite .... I do not recall at this time.

:D

Or, "I have no independet recollection."

[?WudScoobyDo]

What I do know is that you have a habit of snipping posts and statements are taken out of context. You have done it to me numerous times.


And to me too. But I give credit to a poster for being a master at distorting the posts intent and making his or her self appear so gracious as he or she does it.

imo...of course.

[Unperson1984]

My personal favorite .... I do not recall at this time.

:D

An Oldie but a Goodie.

[daniel green]

Where I live a few upscale salons offer all sorts of procedures....including Botox and Restylane injections, laser hair removal treatments, micro dermabrasion, "wellness programs" that include chiropractic care, etc...

Many owners of these salons ARE indeed cosmetologists.

And permanent tats for eyebrows, etc.

Most of them are owned by dermatologists or plastic surgeons and the cosmetologists are "overseen" by licensed docs. Allegedly.

I did find it interesting that the search warrant request included a plastic surgeon, as well.

[impartial]

The hearsay of Dr. Murray. Isn't the statement in a search warrant a necessary step to obtain evidence to support bringing the case to trial?


Search warrant affidavits establish only probable cause ... hearsay may be used for probable cause ie. search warrants, preliminary hearings to determine if probable cause exists to bind the defendant over to trial, etc.

The statements in the affidavit will not be testified to in court in front of a jury due to their unreliability as hearsay statements, as well as violating the confrontation clause. The old adage, tell 10 people the same thing, and see how many different stories you get back from them.

imo

[daniel green]

His sworn statement is to the best of his knowledge, as is every sworn statement. snipped.

Right.

Which is why they are not, and cannot be, in any universe, statement of facts.

[?WudScoobyDo]

If that's the link that was posted yesterday, Adams said that he never administered diprivan in a cosmetologist's office, and refused to answer whether he administered diprivan any other time or place. It was a response to a specific statement in the search warrant ... which the declarant could have meant dermotologist instead of cosmotologist.

I don't view that statement as calling Murray a liar, but rather that he didn't administer it in a cosmotologist's office.

imo

That entire cosmetologist office really bugs me. I have yet to hear any reporter suggest it was a clerical error, as if they don't know what a cosmetologist is, and that they generally don't administer anesthesia to give a hair cut.

[Firehead11]

I remember from years past and hot topics that we were informed that we should not quote posters who argue and bait because sooner or later they would be banned. This was about the time that sammie had 32,000 posts to her credit. So I have learned that lesson also.

[daniel green]

Search warrant affidavits establish only probable cause ... hearsay may be used for probable cause ie. search warrants, preliminary hearings to determine if probable cause exists to bind the defendant over to trial, etc.

snipped

Exactly. Search warrant affidavits are only meant to go find proof that will then become probable cause for arrest, etc. This was just to get into the files of all those docs and doc offices and homes and cars, as well as Lee's.

The Affidavit clearly states that the docs had not just turned over their info--with the exception of Murray, who had--and goes into the patient-doc confidentiality not being absolute, etc.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Search warrant affidavits establish only probable cause ... hearsay may be used for probable cause ie. search warrants, preliminary hearings to determine if probable cause exists to bind the defendant over to trial, etc.

The statements in the affidavit will not be testified to in court in front of a jury due to their unreliability as hearsay statements, as well as violating the confrontation clause. The old adage, tell 10 people the same thing, and see how many different stories you get back from them.

imo

I understand that, but without probable cause there is no trial. Without such a statement there would be no relevant and admissable evidence to present at trial.

[impartial]

I understand that, but without probable cause there is no trial. Without such a statement there would be no relevant and admissable evidence to present at trial.



True.

The problem is, affidavits for probable cause are pretty loose ... many an affidavit contains inaccurate information.

They could have used subpena power to get the documents, but then there would have been an opportunity for the individual doctors to challenge the subpenas in court. Like the statement in the affidavit about the patient/doctor privilege, a really blanket statement without any factual basis or legal basis to determine under these circumstances whether the privilege survives the death. That's why they chose the search warrant process imo.

[?WudScoobyDo]

snipped

Drugs are used off label many times by many doctors and I don't see why Diprivan can't be used the same way.

in my opinion


You may not see why Diprivan can't be used the same way, but every ethical doctor on the planet sees it much differently...except for Dr. Murray of course, but then he appears to fall short in the ethical department.

[daniel green]

That entire cosmetologist office really bugs me. I have yet to hear any reporter suggest it was a clerical error, as if they don't know what a cosmetologist is, and that they generally don't administer anesthesia to give a hair cut.

Here is a local one, with which I am familiar:

http://www.vocispa.com/index.php

One of the locations is in the same bldg as the plastic surgeons who "oversee" this. The other locations are in different bldgs, but still have the supervision of the docs.

[daniel green]

I understand that, but without probable cause there is no trial. Without such a statement there would be no relevant and admissable evidence to present at trial.

No, not really. Without probable cause, there is no arrest. And any evidence found as a result of the searches of the many docs's offices/houses/bldgs/vehicles based on these searches and supporting affidavits may ot may not be introduced at any subsequent trial, if any.

[impartial]

That entire cosmetologist office really bugs me. I have yet to hear any reporter suggest it was a clerical error, as if they don't know what a cosmetologist is, and that they generally don't administer anesthesia to give a hair cut.


I have gotten some haircuts that I wish I had access to Xanax or Valium.

:ohmy:

[daniel green]

True.

The problem is, affidavits for probable cause are pretty loose ... many an affidavit contains inaccurate information.

snipped.

Exactly so.

Heck, look at our discussion. We are saying that it might not be a cosmetologist's office or whatever.

[legalmania]

I thought I would post some facts here is the California law for murder.

http://megalaw.com/ca/cacodelink.php?codelink=http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen@group=00001-01000@file=187-199

[daniel green]

I have gotten some haircuts that I wish I had access to Xanax or Valium.

:ohmy:

Not to mention, waxing or threading.:scared:

[?WudScoobyDo]

No, not really. Without probable cause, there is no arrest. And any evidence found as a result of the searches of the many docs's offices/houses/bldgs/vehicles based on these searches and supporting affidavits may ot may not be introduced at any subsequent trial, if any.


The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine is an offspring of the EXCLUSIONARY RULE. The exclusionary rule mandates that evidence obtained from an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation must be excluded from trial. Under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine, evidence is also excluded from trial if it was gained through evidence uncovered in an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation. Like the exclusionary rule, the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine was established primarily to deter law enforcement from violating rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.


What does any of that have to do with this case? I haven't seen any illegal arrests or searches.

[daniel green]

In the document we've all been reading, on the pgs by LAPD/CA/LA, Search Warrant and Affidavit, it says: "You are commanded to search (persons, vehicles, premises): see pg 2-11"

Then: " For the following property, things or persons: See pgs 12-15."

But this pdf document does not have pgs 2-15.

[daniel green]

snipped

What does any of that have to do with this case? I haven't seen any illegal arrests or searches.

It was in response to your over-general statements about the search warrant and affidavit providing evidence.

But, I am quite done with this matter.

One can continue to believe that this Affidavit is just absolutely factual, a statement of facts, even. Well, with the exceptions of the parts one doesn't like/believe, that is.

[impartial]

The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine is an offspring of the EXCLUSIONARY RULE. The exclusionary rule mandates that evidence obtained from an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation must be excluded from trial. Under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine, evidence is also excluded from trial if it was gained through evidence uncovered in an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation. Like the exclusionary rule, the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine was established primarily to deter law enforcement from violating rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.


What does any of that have to do with this case? I haven't seen any illegal arrests or searches.


I think daniel green meant that documents recovered may or may not be presented at a subsequent trial ... they still have to pass the admissibility, relevance, privileges etc., tests.

And, if the affidavit contains material inaccuracies negating the basis for the determination of probable cause, then the warrant could be tossed out, and all items recovered therefrom would fall within the fruit of the poisionous tree doctrine. Don't see that happening here though.

imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

I have gotten some haircuts that I wish I had access to Xanax or Valium.

:ohmy:

haha... too funny. While I admit its been many years since I first got my cosmetology license, and many years since I have utilized it, I was never taught or heard of anesthesia available in connection with the service. But at that time we would have no reason to use it, as we weren't sanctioned to tatoo, or anything like that. Waxing had been invented, and after a few patron screams, we all got used to it and would never have thought the day would come that we would be allowed to knock them out with drugs.

[Cindylee]

I remember from years past and hot topics that we were informed that we should not quote posters who argue and bait because sooner or later they would be banned. This was about the time that sammie had 32,000 posts to her credit. So I have learned that lesson also.

Well, I learned that one the hard way. :lol:

[Cindylee]

I have gotten some haircuts that I wish I had access to Xanax or Valium.

:ohmy::lol::lol:

[?WudScoobyDo]

I think daniel green meant that documents recovered may or may not be presented at a subsequent trial ... they still have to pass the admissibility, relevance, privileges etc., tests.

And, if the affidavit contains material inaccuracies negating the basis for the determination of probable cause, then the warrant could be tossed out, and all items recovered therefrom would fall within the fruit of the poisionous tree doctrine. Don't see that happening here though.

imo


Agreed!!!! :smile:

[daniel green]

I wonder who the female caller who gave LAPD the info about the aliases MJ used at Klein's office was. Debbie Rowe?

[legalmania]

Here is the California evidence code:

http://www.megalaw.com/ca/cacodelink.php?codelink=http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=evid@group=00001-01000@file=400-406

[?WudScoobyDo]

Apparently, Dr. Murray wasn't the first...so ...obviously other doctors on the planet are in the same boat....he was simply the last man standing. imo


Thats why I said "ethical" doctors. And I don't completely dismiss the notion of last guy standing. I think there is much more to the story, and Murray won't be alone in his world of hurt.

[?WudScoobyDo]

--------------

This is the MJ thread. U may want to go to the "cosmetology" thread.
imo


What...so all the other parts of the warrant can be discussed, except for the one that I respond to? Since cosmetology is a part of that document, its perfectly acceptable to remain on this thread. But thanks for you input and guidance.

[daniel green]

Search warrant is for:

Murray ---cardiologist

Dr Randy Rosen (name given to LAPD by Jacksons) anesthesiologist

Cherilyn Lee --nurse practitioner

Klein ---dermatologist

Taddrissi (dentist, who says he used Dr Adams to sedate MJ)

Dr Adams (anesthesiologist)

Metzger --general practitioner

Larry Koplin (name given to LAPD by nanny Grace)--plastic surgeon

(pg 23)

[retiredcop]

RC, I would love to borrow your rose colored glasses. It really doesn't matter who prescribed what to MJ and whether or not it was legal. What does matter is the last act that resulted in his death.

Why are you blind to the fact that Diprivan should NEVER be used outside a facility that has emergency care equipment? Do you have no clue how fast a person can die once they stop breathing and how hard it is to maintain airway and call for help if you are the only person available. FYI: an adult who is apneic will decline at a slower rate than a child/infant, but there is a threshold, which is abrupt, and once it is crossed, you will never bring them back (on paper it looks like a nice steady straight line that suddenly plummets to the depths of no return). I just don't understand this. Dr. M's use of this drug in the home, with his knowledge of the potential for harm/death is an act I would see as premeditated - knowing what harm could come beforel the fact, but disregarding that knowledge for his own gain. Sounds a little like murder for hire.

I understand what you're saying, but the drug is not illegal to use in the home. Perhaps laws should change. It is also not a controlled substance. Perhaps that should change also.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

So Tadrissi, Adams, Murray--all from Las Vegas.

The rest in CA.

[mrsmcgoo]

Hey all!

With Coldwater's permission I started a new thread to respectfully discuss, compare and update the similiarities between MJ's and Anna Nicole Smith's death.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=357753

Look forward to reading views on BOTH cases! :seeya:

[?WudScoobyDo]

I understand what you're saying, but the drug is not illegal to use in the home. Perhaps laws should change. It is also not a controlled substance. Perhaps that should change also.

in my opinion

Yep... the drug is not illegal. What is illegal is reckless administration of it or any other drug, far removed from the standard of care, and in complete disregard of human life.

[Cindylee]

Hey all!

With Coldwater's permission I started a new thread to respectfully discuss, compare and update the similiarities between MJ's and Anna Nicole Smith's death.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=357753

Look forward to reading views on BOTH cases! :seeya:

Thank you mrsmcgoo.

[legalmania]

I found this interesting:

http://www.megalaw.com/ca/cacodelink.php?codelink=http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=evid@group=01001-02000@file=1100-1109

[Rayosunshine]

________________________________________________
Again I'm still wondering how 25mg of Dirprivan is a lethal dosage since it was in a drip IV and Dr Murray had been giving him 50mg of Diprivan every day for six weeks. Mr Jackson even had to have built up a tolerance. This is why I am waiting for the Autopsy report and tox report.

Again we don't even know what medical equipment was in that room.

All the information being reported on is from an old search warrant from July 22. This investigation just may have changed with further interviews ect. Just saying.

in my opinion

I understand where you are coming from with the 25 mg of diprivan. If it was on a pump, the rate would be controlled (we hope no pump failure, though that does happen and an IV will run wide open as fast as gravity will allow it), was it given by gravity and a slight position change in the IV site caused it to increase it's speed? More likely, it was not 25 mg of Diprivan. I really would like to know what the concentration of Diprivan was in MJ's blood - that should clear things.

Consider a 3 day half life and differing rates of metabolism and excretion: day 1: 50 mg given, day 2: 10 mg still in system + 50 mg given, day 3: 15 mg still in system (possible sl. dehydrated) + 50 mg given, etc. The drug may have been stacking, along with whatever else he was given or had taken. Another consideration, maybe Murray was so frustrated he gave him 100 mg. We need the numbers, desperately.

[Rayosunshine]

I think Murray is already planning his defense with the fact that he says that MJ was addicted to the Diprovan, and he was trying to ween him off of it. We have heard to same in another case.

Murray may well try to argue that point, but even bigger is the fact that Diprivan is an anesthesia drug. Not intended for home use, even if the insert does not say so - a person with an MD degree and the credentials that Murray has would have no excuse whatsoever for what he has done, except greed and stupidity.

[retiredcop]

I understand where you are coming from with the 25 mg of diprivan. If it was on a pump, the rate would be controlled (we hope no pump failure, though that does happen and an IV will run wide open as fast as gravity will allow it), was it given by gravity and a slight position change in the IV site caused it to increase it's speed? More likely, it was not 25 mg of Diprivan. I really would like to know what the concentration of Diprivan was in MJ's blood - that should clear things.

Consider a 3 day half life and differing rates of metabolism and excretion: day 1: 50 mg given, day 2: 10 mg still in system + 50 mg given, day 3: 15 mg still in system (possible sl. dehydrated) + 50 mg given, etc. The drug may have been stacking, along with whatever else he was given or had taken. Another consideration, maybe Murray was so frustrated he gave him 100 mg. We need the numbers, desperately.

Thanks for the info. We do need the tox an autopsy reports. I'm twiddling my thumbs.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

I understand where you are coming from with the 25 mg of diprivan. If it was on a pump, the rate would be controlled (we hope no pump failure, though that does happen and an IV will run wide open as fast as gravity will allow it), was it given by gravity and a slight position change in the IV site caused it to increase it's speed? snipped.

Ray--Murray's account (as per the affidavit) is everything else pushed slowing into IV, but with the dirprivan it says that it was diluted with lido and administered with "IV drip."

[Rayosunshine]

Xenam, I did not. You have no idea of any subsequent conversation with CW about it.

Snipping posts is encouraged.

I didn't realize that snipping helped those with dial-up, how frustrating that system is. I rarely snip, cause I have seen persons banned for doing so. I am between a rock and a hard place.

[Rayosunshine]

I agree. I think that detective Martinez had to mean dermatologist's office, but who knows? For all we know it could have been a cosmetologist's office as it says in the Affidavit. Heck, what were the chances anyone would have thought anyone would be getting induced into a diprivan coma at home, night after night, for a decade? :scared:

Agree, for all we know it was in a Beauty Salon and Spa. Maybe they use the Diprivan to ease the pain of waxing!

[Cindylee]

Murray may well try to argue that point, but even bigger is the fact that Diprivan is an anesthesia drug. Not intended for home use, even if the insert does not say so - a person with an MD degree and the credentials that Murray has would have no excuse whatsoever for what he has done, except greed and stupidity.

I agree. It was crazy for that drug to be used.

[daniel green]

Snipping is actually encouraged when you are replying to a long post, just snip the part you are replying to and mark it "snipped".

DO NOT SNIP IN THE MIDDLE OF A SENTENCE
DO NOT SNIP IF IT CHANGES THE CONTEXT OF THE ORIGINAL POST.


A simpler way is to not quote at all, address the poster by name and refer to their post number to reply.


Also posters who repeatedly quote a post that has been quoted 2 or 3 times above theirs is ridiculous and in the future may be deleted as editing to take out the quote is time consuming.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=339651&page=2

[Xenam]

I am going to address this once.

I was Dxd with MS many years ago. It affects vision in my left eye, and makes it very difficult--during times of flare-ups--for me to see well out of that eye, despite Lasik surgery--particularly on two-colored surfaces, or with signs that are blinking or have any kind of motion, and MOST especially, when reading large portions of lettering. I have found it easier for me, over the years, to just snip the part I am answering, and have found that it is what CTV, formerly, and now IS encourages.

Thanks for the explanation and I am sorry for your ailment. May I ask then you quote a complete statement rather than snipping in the middle of it -- as it takes it out of context as you snip right in the middle of it. Some of the posts I have made that you have snipped are only 3-5 sentences long. No reason you cannot just quote the entire short posts.

As per the rules you posted:

"DO NOT SNIP IN THE MIDDLE OF A SENTENCE
DO NOT SNIP IF IT CHANGES THE CONTEXT OF THE ORIGINAL POST."

[Rayosunshine]

I wonder who the female caller who gave LAPD the info about the aliases MJ used at Klein's office was. Debbie Rowe?

Interesting. Could also be a pharmacy, who is sick of filling rx's that the know are not legal.

edited to add: think Klein was smart enough to make up or have his staff make up fake records for the aliases? I doubt he would go to the trouble, since he is a G.O.D.

[retiredcop]

Wouldn't you think there would be no names associated with the information if it were not accurate. A Dr.'s name is listed. Usually you'll read a "he said, she said, or unnamed source" as the info giver - those are the ones that I wait on, but not in this case. I tend to think that there was a lethal level of propofol, considering the long half-life of the drug and that one person may clear more than another, given different body chemistries, resulting in the stacking effect. Dr. M probably didn't remember this about drugs.

I've seen search warrants change over time as the investigations continue. The lawyer for Dr Murray is saying certain things in the warrant are not true but is police theory. Search warrants can be based on police theory. I have really not read the whole search warrant yet. Now before anyone screams it is his attorney, lets just say we have not seen any of Dr Murray's statements to the police. I would think his lawyer would be careful what he says if he is simply lying.

It is fun to chew on things but nothing is written in stone from what has been released so far.

By the way, if this is ruled a homicide and Dr Murray is charged, so be it. I still think this is an accidental overdose either at Mr Jackson's own hand or someone else's. If I have to eat crow or listen to a lot of I told you sos, I really don't care.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

snipped

edited to add: think Klein was smart enough to make up or have his staff make up fake records for the aliases? I.

The Affidavit says a female caller.

And the LAPD, as per the Affidavit, found meds Rxd by Klein by MJ's bed. Made out to one of the aliases the woman caller had alerted them to--Omar something or other, I cannot recall right now. So, she was right.

[Rayosunshine]

Thanks for the info. We do need the tox an autopsy reports. I'm twiddling my thumbs.

in my opinion

Me too - this is stressing me out - even though I don't know why, it's just me.

[daniel green]

pg. 23 , lines 11-13

"The Los Angeles Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner, Dr S_________,
indicated that he had reviewed the prelimary toxicology results and his prelimary assessment of JACKSON's cause of death was due to lethal levels of PROPOPHOL (diprivan).

[Rayosunshine]

It is NOT a day of national mourning to everyone, if you are referring
to Ted Kennedy. I for one could not stand the drunken hypocrite and I wonder how he is trying to explain away Mary Jo right now.

OOH! glad I'm not in his shoes.

[?WudScoobyDo]

It is NOT a day of national mourning to everyone, if you are referring
to Ted Kennedy. I for one could not stand the drunken hypocrite and I wonder how he is trying to explain away Mary Jo right now.


And G** bless America that you are free to feel that way and express yourself as such. I do believe that it is officially recognized as a day of mourning. No need for you to rush out and lower your flag, we understand how you feel. Hope your day is a pleasant one.

[Xenam]

If that's the link that was posted yesterday, Adams said that he never administered diprivan in a cosmetologist's office, and refused to answer whether he administered diprivan any other time or place. It was a response to a specific statement in the search warrant ... which the declarant could have meant dermotologist instead of cosmotologist.

I don't view that statement as calling Murray a liar, but rather that he didn't administer it in a cosmotologist's office.

imo

Hmm... valid point impartial. I brought up the same thing with Chernoff who issued a statement and said Dr. Murray did not tell LAPD that he left the room to make telephone calls. The warrant does not say that Dr. Murray told them he left the room to make telephone calls - it says he left the room the "relieve himself" and never mentioned any phone calls. LAPD found out about the phone calls from his cell phone bill so I understand perfectly what you are saying. :laugh:

[daniel green]

The Affidavit says Murray made three phone calls. Now, one of them, we know, was to MJ's personal assistant--says so in the Affidavit.

[Cindylee]

The Affidavit says Murray made three phone calls. Now, one of them, we know, was to MJ's personal assistant--says so in the Affidavit.

What I am wondering about is where the heck was security, and why couldn't anyone be contacted? Where was this personal assistant?

[?WudScoobyDo]

ah....another with a long memory...like mine. ;)


It doesn't take a long memory to be respectful and aware of a family in mourning. A family who has long been recognized for its members who have contributed and dedicated their lives to this country. And some who even lost their lives in doing so.

imo...of course.

[Xenam]

pg. 23 , lines 11-13

"The Los Angeles Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner, Dr S_________,
indicated that he had reviewed the prelimary toxicology results and his prelimary assessment of JACKSON's cause of death was due to lethal levels of PROPOPHOL (diprivan).

Yes I read that. However he still used the word "lethal" amount found in his blood and Dr. Murray never mentioned the propofol to LAPD. It is not complete because they need to figure out what drugs he had taken/been given and how those other drugs interacted with the propofol. JMO

[?WudScoobyDo]

The Affidavit says Murray made three phone calls. Now, one of them, we know, was to MJ's personal assistant--says so in the Affidavit.


We also know that one of those calls were never to 911.

[retiredcop]

And G** bless America that you are free to feel that way and express yourself as such. I do believe that it is officially recognized as a day of mourning. No need for you to rush out and lower your flag, we understand how you feel. Hope your day is a pleasant one.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Eagleeye]

What, if any, equiptment Murray had in that rented house makes not one whit of difference in terms of charging him with manslaughter. Not one whit.

Either MJ died as a result of that overdose of diprivan, or he died as a result of a decade of using diprivan and countless other drugs. That is what the DA will consider when charging.

The non-equipment (and it is my belief he had it, since MJ was being monitored with a pulse-ox) makes not a bit of difference in a criminal case. Might in the wrongful death one--because that is a civil matter.

Link to MJ being monitored with a pulse-ox please. TIA

[daniel green]

What I am wondering about is where the heck was security, and why couldn't anyone be contacted? Where was this personal assistant?

Dunno. Not very good security, is what it was.

What I do find fascinating is the wording in the Affidavit about "aiders" and or "abbeters" and how it has not be determined if the death was caused by the one night's administration of drugs or the long term drug abuse.

[retiredcop]

We also know that one of those calls were never to 911.

Well, since Dr Murray never said he found Mr Jackson not breathing at 11:00 according to his lawyer, why should one of those calls be to 911?

in my opinion

[daniel green]

Link to MJ being monitored with a pulse-ox please. TIA

Right there in the Affidavit.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Hmm... valid point impartial. I brought up the same thing with Chernoff who issued a statement and said Dr. Murray did not tell LAPD that he left the room to make telephone calls. The warrant does not say that Dr. Murray told them he left the room to make telephone calls - it says he left the room the "relieve himself" and never mentioned any phone calls. LAPD found out about the phone calls from his cell phone bill so I understand perfectly what you are saying. :laugh:
.

And for all those who still believe Michael was alive upon arrival at the hospital, Dr. Murray failed to inform the ER doctors exactly what drugs were pumped into him, which if Michael had been alive, would have been important to mention.

[Cindylee]

Link to MJ being monitored with a pulse-ox please. TIA

I don't have the link but I think Dr. Murray said he used one in the search warrant.

[Xenam]

The Affidavit says Murray made three phone calls. Now, one of them, we know, was to MJ's personal assistant--says so in the Affidavit.

Yes for 47 minutes -- and the call to his personal assistant took all of 4 seconds:

AP article - so cannot quote:

Disputed time in Jackson death could be key in potential criminal case against his doctor

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-ap-us-michael-jackson-investigation,0,3982115.story

[?WudScoobyDo]

Well, since Dr Murray never said he found Mr Jackson not breathing at 11:00 according to his lawyer, why should one of those calls be to 911?

in my opinion


Because it would have appeared as a better attempt to cover up the fact that he was responsible for killing Michael.

[Xenam]

.

And for all those who still believe Michael was alive upon arrival at the hospital, Dr. Murray failed to inform the ER doctors exactly what drugs were pumped into him, which if Michael had been alive, would have been important to mention.

He did not tell LAPD about the propofol either.

[legalmania]

Interesting. Could also be a pharmacy, who is sick of filling rx's that the know are not legal.

edited to add: think Klein was smart enough to make up or have his staff make up fake records for the aliases? I doubt he would go to the trouble, since he is a G.O.D.

Alls the pharmacy has to do is call the police. They don't have to fill out a prescription if they feel it's bogas. As a matter of fact they could get in trouble for filling fake prescriptions.

[?WudScoobyDo]

He did not tell LAPD about the propofol either.


He did not tell anyone where he was going when he slipped out of the hospital and could not be located by police either.

[Firehead11]

Link to MJ being monitored with a pulse-ox please. TIA

That is in the search warrant.

As far as the being made to the assistant as one of the three, we do not know if the LE are counting that in as one of them. Since he called the assistant prior to going downstairs. (IIRC)

[impartial]

Hmm... valid point impartial. I brought up the same thing with Chernoff who issued a statement and said Dr. Murray did not tell LAPD that he left the room to make telephone calls. The warrant does not say that Dr. Murray told them he left the room to make telephone calls - it says he left the room the "relieve himself" and never mentioned any phone calls. LAPD found out about the phone calls from his cell phone bill so I understand perfectly what you are saying. :laugh:


I want to know who he was calling ... we know he called MJ's assistant. I wonder if he was calling medical care providers.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I want to know who he was calling ... we know he called MJ's assistant. I wonder if he was calling medical care providers.

He probably should have, since he wasn't providing it.

[Cindylee]

Alls the pharmacy has to do is call the police. They don't have to fill out a prescription if they feel it's bogas. As a matter of fact they could get in trouble for filling fake prescriptions. As they should. How is it that Dr. Kline had prescriptions in his own name written by himself? That is illegal. The pharmacy knew who Kline was, why would they fill those scripts?

[Cindylee]

That is in the search warrant.

As far as the being made to the assistant as one of the three, we do not know if the LE are counting that in as one of them. Since he called the assistant prior to going downstairs. (IIRC)

He made all of the phone calls prior to going downstairs, right? As soon as he went downstairs, someone came and called 911. :confused:

[daniel green]

He made all of the phone calls prior to going downstairs, right? As soon as he went downstairs, someone came and called 911. :confused:

As per the Affidavit, Murray ran to the stairs, called for chef to send Prince. "P Jackson responds to upstairs" and he dispatches security.

[impartial]

He probably should have, since he wasn't providing it.


I'm thinking in terms of Adams or Klein.

:scared:

[daniel green]

Michael Amir, Jackson's chief of staff, and Alberto Alvarez, a security staffer, were briefly interviewed June 25, one at Jackson's rented Holmby Hills home and the other at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center.


Douglas said Alvarez was with Jackson and Dr. Conrad Murray in the pop star's bedroom in the critical moments before paramedics arrived. He could provide useful information that would confirm or contradict Murray's version of events and provide independent insight into what transpired, the attorney said. Douglas, however, refused to say what the men might tell police.



http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/twostaffers-who-worked-formichael-jackson-and-were-with-the-pop-star-at-various-points-in-the-hours-before-his-death-have-yet.html

[legalmania]

As they should. How is it that Dr. Kline had prescriptions in his own name written by himself? That is illegal. The pharmacy knew who Kline was, why would they fill those scripts?

I don't know if it's illegal in California to write scripts to yourself in Florida it is not. Do you have a link?

[daniel green]

However, contrary to previous reports that stated Murray left Jackson alone after administering Propofol to make calls, the Times writes that those phone calls reportedly didn’t begin until 11:18 a.m., or 18 minutes after Murray discovered Jackson wasn’t breathing. If this new timeline is accurate, considering 911 wasn’t called until 12:22 p.m., that’s an hour and twenty-two minute gap between when Murray found Jackson not breathing to when paramedics were called.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/26/jackson-employees-want-to-speak-out-regarding-singers-death/

[?WudScoobyDo]

As per the Affidavit, Murray ran to the stairs, called for chef to send Prince. "P Jackson responds to upstairs" and he dispatches security.


In his statement Murray said he noticed MJ not breathing at appx 1100 hours. Murray's cell records show Murray on the telephone with three separate callers for appx 47 minutes starting at 1118 hours, until 1205 hours. Murray did not mention this to the interviewing detectives.

The 911 call was made at 12:22 pm PST.

[Cindylee]

I don't know if it's illegal in California to write scripts to yourself in Florida it is not. Do you have a link?


Jackson Doc Self-Prescribed Powerful Drugs

Posted Aug 24th 2009 7:00PM by TMZ Staff

Dr. Arnold Klein, Michael Jackson's friend and doctor, wrote dozens of prescriptions for powerful controlled substances for himself, according to a search warrant obtained by TMZ.

dr. arnold klein

We got hold of the affidavit for the search warrant that allowed the DEA to raid Mickey Fine Pharmacy in Beverly Hills -- the pharmacy Dr. Klein often used to fill prescriptions for Michael Jackson, often using aliases.

According to the affidavit, records show Dr. Klein self-prescribed 27 times from March, 2006 through May, 2009. The prescriptions include "the medications hydrocodone (Vicodin), modafinil (Provigil), diazepam (Valium), and injectable midazolam (Versed). The prescriptions were filled at Mickey Fine Pharmacy in Beverly Hills.

According to California law, "No person shall prescribe, administer, or furnish a controlled substance for himself."

It is not known if Dr. Klein used the prescriptions for himself or possibly for Michael Jackson. We do know Dr. Klein often prescribed to Jackson using various aliases.

Interestingly, the affidavit states Dr. Klein's lawyer told the DEA that his client "has never self-prescribed."

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-mickey-fine-pharmacy-selfprescribed-affidavit/#ixzz0PJroyk5X

[daniel green]

The tools of an anesthesiologist rarely make headlines. We are one of the invisible specialties, performing our best work while our patients are unconscious. But these days a lot of people ask me if I'm planning to use that "Michael Jackson Drug" to put them to sleep. I usually answer "yes," and then start explaining.

I make my living helping people safely sleep through painful events. Michael Jackson's probable mode of death, propofol, is a drug I use everyday in the operating room. In a full dose propofol induces general anesthesia in less than two minutes, and when drizzled slowly through the veins it causes a lovely sedation famous for spinning pleasant dreams with very few nasty after affects -- a big improvement over biting bullets, whiskey, and every other drug that came before it. The most prized characteristic of this milky white chemical is its quick action; in moderate doses propofol is in and out of the system in about ten minutes. This roller coaster ride through the body and brain means patients can stay soundly anesthetized for short surgeries, but be awake and on their way home an hour after they leave the operating room. It's that same quick onset and disappearance, however, that makes propofol so dangerous. The line between a light, pleasant nap and asphyxiation is perilously narrow, and it takes training and experience to use it judiciously. Remarkably, the drug isn't closely monitored by the Drug Enforcement Agency, though it is now under discussion. Anyone with access to a procedural suite or operating room can walk out with handfuls of the stuff and no one would be counting the lost vials. That wouldn't be possible with tightly controlled drugs more famous for abuse, such as narcotics like morphine, fentanyl or Demerol, whose long history of addiction dates back to opium dens.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-cassella/michael-jackson-a-victim_b_268466.html

[daniel green]

What was the good doctor thinking when he acceded to Mr. Jackson's "repeated demands/requests" for a shot of the drug propofol, an intravenously administered hypnotic agent whose use as a general anaesthetic normally is restricted to hospital settings, on top of tabs of Valium and injections of Lorazepam and Midazolam given only hours before? As a self-indulgent world celebrity, Mr. Jackson may have believed he had a right to take any drug he pleased if it would help overcome his chronic insomnia, but his doctor should have known better. Clearly, in this case just saying no would have been the best medicine.

Did the physician play along against his better judgment for fear of losing such a rich and famous client? Or was he merely incompetent -- or worse, criminally negligent? These are the sorts of questions Los Angeles authorities will have to sort out before deciding whether to bring charges against Mr. Murray. But from all that is known about the case so far, at least one thing seems clear: Whatever the outcome of the investigation, it's likely neither Mr. Jackson's family, friends and fans nor Dr. Murray and his defenders will end up completely satisfied that justice has been served.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/2009/08/michael_jacksons_death_a_conti.html

[daniel green]

The truth is that the era of Michael Jackson was mostly over decades before the singer died. Yes, he sold out a string of comeback shows in England. But those shows were crucially featuring a living Michael Jackson and perhaps unrealistic hopes by fans of what he was still capable of putting on stage. Now those hopes are fully dashed. There is no stage he will be on. There is no new product that will be created that will interest his old fans like "Thriller." At best, think of Jimi Hendrix's posthumous releases. Or even think of sales on Chinese Democracy when that disc was finally finished. Time passes for everyone no matter how much you dream of being Peter Pan.

Of course, Jackson's videos and singles will be appreciated by old fans and new generations of fans for years to come. But for Vegas in 2009, I am convinced that, far from saving the town, any investment in Jackson's legacy will be another huge money-loser for whatever casino takes that risk. A year from now the media will have moved on to other stories. But I suspect that, a year from now, I will also still be writing blog entries like this one squelching the latest rumors about a Jackson show on its way to Vegas.

I could be wrong, of course. Las Vegas is a town that has a hard time letting go of a fantasy until someone loses a lot of money attempting to make it a reality. But should someone try this one, I am sure that would be the case with any attempt to turn a profit from the memory of Michael Jackson.

http://vegasblog.latimes.com/vegas/2009/08/the-continuing-fantasy-of-michael-jackson-in-vegas.html

[legalmania]

Jackson Doc Self-Prescribed Powerful Drugs

Posted Aug 24th 2009 7:00PM by TMZ Staff

Dr. Arnold Klein, Michael Jackson's friend and doctor, wrote dozens of prescriptions for powerful controlled substances for himself, according to a search warrant obtained by TMZ.

dr. arnold klein

We got hold of the affidavit for the search warrant that allowed the DEA to raid Mickey Fine Pharmacy in Beverly Hills -- the pharmacy Dr. Klein often used to fill prescriptions for Michael Jackson, often using aliases.



According to the affidavit, records show Dr. Klein self-prescribed 27 times from March, 2006 through May, 2009. The prescriptions include "the medications hydrocodone (Vicodin), modafinil (Provigil), diazepam (Valium), and injectable midazolam (Versed). The prescriptions were filled at Mickey Fine Pharmacy in Beverly Hills.

According to California law, "No person shall prescribe, administer, or furnish a controlled substance for himself."

It is not known if Dr. Klein used the prescriptions for himself or possibly for Michael Jackson. We do know Dr. Klein often prescribed to Jackson using various aliases.

Interestingly, the affidavit states Dr. Klein's lawyer told the DEA that his client "has never self-prescribed."

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-mickey-fine-pharmacy-selfprescribed-affidavit/#ixzz0PJroyk5X

He was really testing the law. That is really excessive. I would think once or twice would be enough. He really pushed his luck and got caught.

[Cindylee]

He was really testing the law. That is really excessive. I would think once or twice would be enough. He really pushed his luck and got caught.

Yes he was, as was the pharmacy, IMO. I think maybe Micky's is in big trouble also.

[daniel green]

She added: “I am thankful to the investigators for uncovering the truth to the world. I look forward to the day that justice will be served to all the parties involved in my brother’s homicide.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/6092008/La-Toya-Jackson-justice-must-be-served-for-my-brothers-killers.html

[?WudScoobyDo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/6092008/La-Toya-Jackson-justice-must-be-served-for-my-brothers-killers.html


I'm sure the rest of the family as well, hopes justice is served in the murder of their loved one.

[impartial]

I'm sure the rest of the family as well, hopes justice is served in the murder of their loved one.


There's no murder here. Homicide does not equate to murder. Criminal negligence falls within homicide.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (Stop rhyming, and I mean it. Anyone got a peanut?)

:wink:

[legalmania]

Yes he was, as was the pharmacy, IMO. I think maybe Micky's is in big trouble also.

That's the way it is in the entertainment world though. My roommate use to do sound for every big band there was in the late 70' and most of the 80's and the bands had access to every kind of drug out there. Some just liked smoke others had every color pill there was, you needed a p.d.r to keep up. My roommates job was to do the sound, he said sometimes they wouldn't even play a note they would just party. He could tell stories, but he won't.

[daniel green]

There's no murder here. Homicide does not equate to murder. Criminal negligence falls within homicide.

snipped

Indeed.

(say no to rhymes!)

[impartial]

Indeed.

(say no to rhymes!)



Couldn't help it ... I've seen Princess Bride too many times. Inconceivable!

[?WudScoobyDo]

There's no murder here. Homicide does not equate to murder. Criminal negligence falls within homicide.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (Stop rhyming, and I mean it. Anyone got a peanut?)

:wink:

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.



The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill, a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought, which may involve an unintentional killing but with a willful disregard for life.

ps... I didn't get the rhyme part.

[Cindylee]

That's the way it is in the entertainment world though. My roommate use to do sound for every big band there was in the late 70' and most of the 80's and the bands had access to every kind of drug out there. Some just liked smoke others had every color pill there was, you needed a p.d.r to keep up. My roommates job was to do the sound, he said sometimes they wouldn't even play a note they would just party. He could tell stories, but he won't.

The times they are a changing. I think. I hope. The ANS case will come up first. That will be a test. We'll see if those Dr.'s and HKS get any jail time. I doubt it, but it just might make Dr.s think twice in the future. There were no pharmacies in trouble in that case, we'll have to wait and see in this one.

[daniel green]

I saw a little snip of a portion of that Jackson brother's reality show. UGH. I think I saw it on ET last night.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I saw a little snip of a portion of that Jackson brother's reality show. UGH. I think I saw it on ET last night.


Thank goodness for remote control.

[Roxxanne]

Because it would have appeared as a better attempt to cover up the fact that he was responsible for killing Michael.

Just remembered something and y'all may have discussed it already, but wasn't his reason in the beginning for waiting so long to call 911 no cell service? That and no land line hooked up?

[Cindylee]

Mickey's should be put out of business. They knowingly filled
illegal prescriptions. The pharmacists that filled them should
lose their licenses.

I agree.......

[Cindylee]

Just remembered something and y'all may have discussed it already, but wasn't his reason in the beginning for waiting so long to call 911 no cell service? That and no land line hooked up?

No, I think he said that there was no land line, and didn't use his cell because he didn't know the address. I could be wrong about the cell though.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Just remembered something and y'all may have discussed it already, but wasn't his reason in the beginning for waiting so long to call 911 no cell service? That and no land line hooked up?


I'm not sure about cell service, since the call was eventually made, but not before three other calls made on his cell phone. He said he didn't know the address and so why bother to call 911, if he couldnt figure out where to tell them to go.

[impartial]

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.



The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill, a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought, which may involve an unintentional killing but with a willful disregard for life.

ps... I didn't get the rhyme part.


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means". That's the phrase that came to my mind when I saw your post with the word murder in it. It's a line from the Princess Bride .... so is the rhyming line, my way of letting you know I was quoting from the Princess Bride, in case you were familiar with the movie.

Murder requires an intentional killing. Murder 1 requires premeditation; murder 2 requires an intent to kill without premeditation. Intent can be inferred from the facts, and a wanton disregard for human life can qualify for murder 2 .. ie, shooting a gun in a crowd of people.

A doctor performing a procedure would not fall within a murder 2 intent. Several doctors/dentists use anesthesia in office settings. The fact that Murray isn't an anesthesiologist doesn't make his administration of diprivan a wanton disregard for human life; otherwise, dentists and plastics that lose patients while under anesthesia would also be under the same gun.

At worst, manslaughter ... criminal negligence ... but more likely violations of the B&P Code.

imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

No, I think he said that there was no land line, and didn't use his cell because he didn't know the address. I could be wrong about the cell though.

Could be he drained the battery during the 3 calls that lasted 47 minutes.

[Roxxanne]

I'm not sure about cell service, since the call was eventually made, but not before three other calls made on his cell phone. He said he didn't know the address and so why bother to call 911, if he couldnt figure out where to tell them to go.

Okay thanks to you and Cindy. I remember Larry King asking the cook about it but it must have been the land line he was asking about. Thanks y'all.

[?WudScoobyDo]

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means". That's the phrase that came to my mind when I saw your post with the word murder in it. It's a line from the Princess Bride .... so is the rhyming line, my way of letting you know I was quoting from the Princess Bride, in case you were familiar with the movie.

Murder requires an intentional killing. Murder 1 requires premeditation; murder 2 requires an intent to kill without premeditation. Intent can be inferred from the facts, and a wanton disregard for human life can qualify for murder 2 .. ie, shooting a gun in a crowd of people.

A doctor performing a procedure would not fall within a murder 2 intent. Several doctors/dentists use anesthesia in office settings. The fact that Murray isn't an anesthesiologist doesn't make his administration of diprivan a wanton disregard for human life; otherwise, dentists and plastics that lose patients while under anesthesia would also be under the same gun.

At worst, manslaughter ... criminal negligence ... but more likely violations of the B&P Code.

imo

You see, thats where I have to disagree with you. Based on the facts we know so far, I believe it does rise to 2nd degree murder. Now whether or not he is charged with 2nd degree murder, we won't know until he is charged. In any case, I do think Murry had the requisite wanton disregard for human life. Apparently you don't. But I still dig you a lot. :wub:

[Cindylee]

You see, thats where I have to disagree with you. Based on the facts we know so far, I believe it does rise to 2nd degree murder. Now whether or not he is charged with 2nd degree murder, we won't know until he is charged. In any case, I do think Murry had the requisite wanton disregard for human life. Apparently you don't. But I still dig you a lot. :wub:

If he wasn't a Dr. I might agree with you about the 2nd. degree. But, I think since he is a Dr. I think the most he will be charged with is manslaughter, or criminal negligence. But, as you say, we'll see. I wonder what they are still looking for???

[legalmania]

The times they are a changing. I think. I hope. The ANS case will come up first. That will be a test. We'll see if those Dr.'s and HKS get any jail time. I doubt it, but it just might make Dr.s think twice in the future. There were no pharmacies in trouble in that case, we'll have to wait and see in this one.

As long as there are pharmaceutical companies you'll have people who can get them. The government doesn't want it to stop it's a multi-billion dollar corporation. A few people may go to jail but just as in Elvis's case it will blow over in a year or so and people will continue on.

[Unperson1984]

Yes I read that. However he still used the word "lethal" amount found in his blood and Dr. Murray never mentioned the propofol to LAPD. It is not complete because they need to figure out what drugs he had taken/been given and how those other drugs interacted with the propofol. JMO

According to the affidavit Murray did tell LAPD about the propofol, it's on page 10 of the link you posted earlier.

:confused:

[Rayosunshine]

Link to MJ being monitored with a pulse-ox please. TIA


And, anyone can buy a pulse-ox on the internet, CHEAP too.

[impartial]

You see, thats where I have to disagree with you. Based on the facts we know so far, I believe it does rise to 2nd degree murder. Now whether or not he is charged with 2nd degree murder, we won't know until he is charged. In any case, I do think Murry had the requisite wanton disregard for human life. Apparently you don't. But I still dig you a lot. :wub:



T'is okay. Agree to disagree. :smile:

[Rayosunshine]

Think I read somewhere that Dr. Murray gave Michael Narcan. If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't work for benzodiazepines and I don't think it's a reversal agent for Diprivan either. If someone knows, fill me in. I just don't feel like getting out of one site to look it up now. Thanks.

Eagleeye, Narcan? Barbiturate and opiate reversal, right?

[Rayosunshine]

If he wasn't a Dr. I might agree with you about the 2nd. degree. But, I think since he is a Dr. I think the most he will be charged with is manslaughter, or criminal negligence. But, as you say, we'll see. I wonder what they are still looking for???


Not sure what's dragging this out. I wonder how hard it will be for them to get expert witnesses to testify that Murray was wrong.

[legalmania]

Not sure what's dragging this out. I wonder how hard it will be for them to get expert witnesses to testify that Murray was wrong.

I did a quick search and found this about homicide in California:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

[?WudScoobyDo]

If he wasn't a Dr. I might agree with you about the 2nd. degree. But, I think since he is a Dr. I think the most he will be charged with is manslaughter, or criminal negligence. But, as you say, we'll see. I wonder what they are still looking for???


I really think there is a possibility that there is more to this story, but for now its been my belief that he could be charged with 2nd degree, and will plead down to manslaughter, thus avoiding a trial, and little to no jail time.

[GentleBreeze]

Not sure what's dragging this out. I wonder how hard it will be for them to get expert witnesses to testify that Murray was wrong.

Not sure but I know in this past two months there has been so many doctors on the various news channels commenting on it and I haven't heard one of them say yet that what Murray did was right. Quite the opposite like they think Murray gives ethical doctors a bad name.

So I don't see that being a problem for the DA.


imo

[Unperson1984]

Think I read somewhere that Dr. Murray gave Michael Narcan. If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't work for benzodiazepines and I don't think it's a reversal agent for Diprivan either. If someone knows, fill me in. I just don't feel like getting out of one site to look it up now. Thanks.

Eagleeye, Narcan? Barbiturate and opiate reversal, right?

According to the affidavit LAPD found Anexate in the room, that is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

[Unperson1984]

Not sure but I know in this past two months there has been so many doctors on the various news channels commenting on it and I haven't heard one of them say yet that what Murray did was right. Quite the opposite like they think Murray gives ethical doctors a bad name.

So I don't see that being a problem for the DA.


imo

Would you expect doctors who use diprivan off label to go on talk shows? I wouldn't.

[legalmania]

This is dedicated to Michael and all his fans:

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - The Way You Make Me Feel (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/the_way_you_make_me_feel)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[?WudScoobyDo]

Would you expect doctors who use diprivan off label to go on talk shows? I wouldn't.


Not unless they wanted the world to know that they too are unethical, and reckless.

[GentleBreeze]

Would you expect doctors who use diprivan off label to go on talk shows? I wouldn't.

I am not sure what you mean. I highly doubt they would be commenting one way or the other.

I am talking about the countless doctors who have spoken out about Murray and feel that he should be criminally charged.

Imo, the DA will have no problem with finding ethical doctors who knows CMs actions are unacceptable.

imo

[daniel green]

According to the affidavit Murray did tell LAPD about the propofol, it's on page 10 of the link you posted earlier.

:confused:

He certainly did.

[daniel green]

According to the affidavit LAPD found Anexate in the room, that is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

Right. Like narcam. And the affidavit says Murray says he administered it after he found MJ not breathing, as a antigen for the ativan.

[Unperson1984]

Not unless they wanted the world to know that they too are unethical, and reckless.

Exactly, so saying that all the doctors on talk shows say they would never do what Murray did is a little disingenuous. IMO

[daniel green]

Not sure what's dragging this out. I wonder how hard it will be for them to get expert witnesses to testify that Murray was wrong.

Not sure what the hold-up is. It seems it is not as cut and dried as we may think.

The DA would certainly not need any witnesses to charge and arrest.

[daniel green]

And, anyone can buy a pulse-ox on the internet, CHEAP too.

Be that as it may, MJ was hooked up to one, by Murray.

[?WudScoobyDo]

He certainly did.


He just lied about the amount.

imo...of course.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Exactly, so saying that all the doctors on talk shows say they would never do what Murray did is a little disingenuous. IMO


Except for that all the talk show doctors dont have a dead body they need to explain away, like Murray does.

[Unperson1984]

Right. Like narcam. And the affidavit says Murray says he administered it after he found MJ not breathing, as a antigen for the ativan.

Narcan is a reversal agent for opiates, Anexate is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

The fact that Murray had Anexate on hand greatly undermines a claim of willful disregard for human life.

[daniel green]

What's more likely, Dombrowski said, is that the numbers in the documents are somehow in error. Murray might not have provided an infusion rate -- such as 25 milligrams every few minutes -- or police did not understand the medical terminology. If the amount of propofol is higher, combined with the other medications, Dombrowski said, then "you are going to start to see an overdose."

The preliminary toxicology reports cited in the court records said that "lethal levels" of propofol were found in Jackson's blood, a finding that sources familiar with the investigation maintain was a significant factor in the pop star's death.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/drug-amounts-in-michael-jackson-death-probe-dont-add-up-medical-experts-say.html

[?WudScoobyDo]

Right. Like narcam. And the affidavit says Murray says he administered it after he found MJ not breathing, as a antigen for the ativan.


That might make a difference if it was the ativan that killed him. Unfortunately, it wasn't and Michael did in fact die.

[daniel green]

Narcan is a reversal agent for opiates, Anexate is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

The fact that Murray had Anexate on hand greatly undermines a claim of willful disregard for human life.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, I did not know that.

And, yeah, that would undermine it.

Thanks so much, Unperson!

[daniel green]

So it would be an antigen to Xanax, valium, ativan?

[daniel green]

Anexate injection contains the active ingredient flumazenil, which is a medicine used to reverse the effects of benzodiazepines. Benzodiazepines (e.g. diazepam and temazepam) are often used to induce sedation prior to minor surgical procedures.The benzodiazepines work by acting on receptors in the brain (GABA receptors) causing the release of a chemical called GABA (gamma amino butyric acid). GABA is a major inhibitory chemical in the brain involved in inducing sleep and control of anxiety and fits. Benzodiazepines act by increasing the activity of GABA, thereby reducing the functioning of certain areas of the brain. This results in sleepiness, a decrease in anxiety and relaxation of muscles. Flumazenil reverses the effects of benzodiazepines by competing with them for the GABA receptors. Flumazenil binds to the receptors, preventing benzodiazepines from acting on them. This blocks their effects and causes sedation to be reversed.Flumazenil is used to reverse general anaesthesia induced by benzodiazepines, sedation induced by benzodiazepines for short term procedures and sedation of patients in intensive care.

What is it used for?
Reversing the effects of benzodiazepines

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100003503.html

[daniel green]

snipped

The fact that Murray had Anexate on hand greatly undermines a claim of willful disregard for human life.

As does MJ's pulse/oxygen levels being monitored by him.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Narcan is a reversal agent for opiates, Anexate is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

The fact that Murray had Anexate on hand greatly undermines a claim of willful disregard for human life.


Maybe so, but I think the failure to call 911 in a timely manner, the 3 calls lasting 47 minutes, instead of tending to his dying patient, the failure to monitor his patient consistent with the standard of care, the failure to inform the ER doctors what drugs he had administered...etc, supports a claim of willful disregard for human life. Even though I believe Michael was dead hours before the 911 call was made.

I would continue with the consciousness of guilt aspect, but I'm off to have lunch.

oops I forgot to add his unique method of performing CPR.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, I did not know that.

And, yeah, that would undermine it.

Thanks so much, Unperson!

Except that it was propofol that killed him, and the lack of intubation...etc, which might have presented the opportunity to save his patient.

[Poochie Pie]

The Affidavit does, indeed, say that. That the prelim tox report and the prelim assessment shows a lethal amount of diprivan/propofol.

The Affidavit also clearly states that they don't know if the death was caused from the one night's actions, or the over 20 yrs of drug abuse. Also, that they don't know (per several statutes they list) if any other person or physician aided or abetted.

Thems the facts. daniel, IF the Tox reports show a LETHAL amount of propofol/diprivan, IMO it doesn't matter about the "20 years of drug abuse"...!! Also the next sentence is quite confusing... "They don't know if any other person or physician aided or abetted"..?? Do you think they mean "other" than Dr. Murray..? He has already told them he administered the propofol... Geez..

Poochie

[daniel green]

daniel, IF the Tox reports show a LETHAL amount of propofol/diprivan, IMO it doesn't matter about the "20 years of drug abuse"...!! Also the next sentence is quite confusing... "They don't know if any other person or physician aided or abetted"..?? Do you think they mean "other" than Dr. Murray..? He has already told them he administered the propofol... Geez..

Poochie

Excuse me? :confused:

That is what it says right in the Affidavit filed by LAPD. Just like it says that they don't know if it was long-term drug abuse that caused MJ's death.

[daniel green]

EMTs worked to stabalize him for 38 mins at the rented house prior to the ER doc saying it was safe enough to transport MJ to the hospital.

[?WudScoobyDo]

--------------
If MJ was dead hours before the 911 call, (as u believe) then how do u explain the stablization of him when he left the rented house? imo


I don't. I wasn't there. But according to the people who were there, at the leased mansion, Michael was dead and the Dr. refused to acknowledge that fact.

[Cindylee]

As long as there are pharmaceutical companies you'll have people who can get them. The government doesn't want it to stop it's a multi-billion dollar corporation. A few people may go to jail but just as in Elvis's case it will blow over in a year or so and people will continue on.

Unfortunately you are probably right. You wonder how many "regular" people have died because of over prescibing? You just hear about the "star".
I know our local pharmacist lost his license when the DEA came in and did an audit. He couldn't account for thousands of vicodine (sp).

[Cindylee]

And, anyone can buy a pulse-ox on the internet, CHEAP too.

Yes, or the drug store. My dad uses his constantly.

[?WudScoobyDo]

---------------
Hi Daniel..........yes but the poster says that she believes that MJ was dead hours before he was stabalized. Impossible. imo


Yes I agree that it would be impossible to stabilize an already dead victim.

[Unperson1984]

daniel, IF the Tox reports show a LETHAL amount of propofol/diprivan, IMO it doesn't matter about the "20 years of drug abuse"...!! Also the next sentence is quite confusing... "They don't know if any other person or physician aided or abetted"..?? Do you think they mean "other" than Dr. Murray..? He has already told them he administered the propofol... Geez..

Poochie

But he may not be the doctor who obtained the propofol.

[Cindylee]

I really think there is a possibility that there is more to this story, but for now its been my belief that he could be charged with 2nd degree, and will plead down to manslaughter, thus avoiding a trial, and little to no jail time.

You could be right. I don't think he will do any jail time either. You can bet he will lose his license. IMO

[?WudScoobyDo]

But he may not be the doctor who obtained the propofol.

So what? Obviously at some point he did obtain it, and he did administer it, and killed his patient by doing so. Thats not to say other doctors wont be charged too.

[Cindylee]

Narcan is a reversal agent for opiates, Anexate is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

The fact that Murray had Anexate on hand greatly undermines a claim of willful disregard for human life.

Good point.

[?WudScoobyDo]

------------------

Murray couldnt acknowledge the fact that MJ was dead at the rented house because he was stablized and transported to the hospital. imo

Right.. you think the EMT's are lying and I think Dr. Murray is lying. Hopefully one day we will find out for sure, but since its not the EMT's who are being investigated by homicide detectives, my bet is on Dr. Murray being the lying party.

[Unperson1984]

So what? Obviously at some point he did obtain it, and he did administer it, and killed his patient by doing so. Thats not to say other doctors wont be charged too.

Scooby you really need to read what I was responding to, it was about charging an additional doctor.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Good point.


It would be an even better point if Michael had died from any one of those drugs, unfortunately he died from propofol, and all the opiate reversal agents in the world would not have reversed the propofol overdose, which did in fact cause the death.

[Cindylee]

As does MJ's pulse/oxygen levels being monitored by him.

The big question for me in that area, is whether he had the tube and bag thing to help him, if he stopped breathing? We know he had the oxygen, but that would have been useless.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Scooby you really need to read what I was responding to, it was about charging an additional doctor.


But...but... but thats what I was saying too.

[retiredcop]

I don't. I wasn't there. But according to the people who were there, at the leased mansion, Michael was dead and the Dr. refused to acknowledge that fact.

What people? Do you have a link? Don't say the EMTs because an interview with the fire captain who was on the scene debunks that. Have you watched the documentary yet? No, I don't believe the fire captain is lying.

BTW that also debunks Mr Jackson was discovered not breathing at 11:00.

in my opinion

[Lyndawitha"Y]

According to the affidavit LAPD found Anexate in the room, that is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

Just trying to be informative~~

Narcan
http://www.drugs.com/pro/narcan.html
Narcan

Generic Name: naloxone hydrochloride
Dosage Form: Injection, USP

Narcan Description


Narcan (naloxone hydrochloride injection, USP), an opioid antagonist, is a synthetic congener of oxymorphone. In structure it differs from oxymorphone in that the methyl group on the nitrogen atom is replaced by an allyl group.

Anexate


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100003503.html

What is it used for?
Reversing the effects of benzodiazepines

Having outlined these drugs..we have no idea who used these drugs..I somehow think it will be shown it was the EMT's and not Dr. Murray who gave these two meds...

Time will only tell..just dont find Dr. Murray is one who I would tend to believe..HUMMMING

LMS

[?WudScoobyDo]

What people? Do you have a link? Don't say the EMTs because an interview with the fire captain on the scene debunks that. Have you watched the documentary yet?

in my opinion

You mean the tv guide channel documentary? I have seen it, and still believe he was dead long before the call to 911. By the way, do you really consider that a documentary? Are the tv listings that scroll on the bottom half of the screen considered documentary as well?

[Unperson1984]

For all of our debating back and forth one thing seems obvious, at this point in time LAPD doesn't feel they have enough to arrest Murray.

[?WudScoobyDo]

----------------

I never said anyone was lying. imo


Fair enough. But the stories don't match, so someone is either lying or mistaken. My guess is lying.

[Poochie Pie]

Excuse me? :confused:

That is what it says right in the Affidavit filed by LAPD. Just like it says that they don't know if it was long-term drug abuse that caused MJ's death. LOL.... I was asking you if you thought they meant someone BESIDES Dr. Murray aided and abetted... since Murray has admitted to administering the propofol... As far as the "Affidavit filed by LAPD saying they don't know if it was long term drug abuse that caused MJ's death, considering the Coroner's preliminary assessment of LETHAL levels of propofol present in his system, perhaps they are a little more enlightened now... sorry for the confusion...:smile:

Poochie

[Unperson1984]

Just trying to be informative~~

Narcan
http://www.drugs.com/pro/narcan.html
Narcan

Generic Name: naloxone hydrochloride
Dosage Form: Injection, USP

Narcan Description


Narcan (naloxone hydrochloride injection, USP), an opioid antagonist, is a synthetic congener of oxymorphone. In structure it differs from oxymorphone in that the methyl group on the nitrogen atom is replaced by an allyl group.

Anexate


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100003503.html

What is it used for?
Reversing the effects of benzodiazepines

Having outlined these drugs..we have no idea who used these drugs..I somehow think it will be shown it was the EMT's and not Dr. Murray who gave these two meds...

Time will only tell..just dont find Dr. Murray is one who I would tend to believe..HUMMMING

LMS

I didn't claim Murray used the Anexate, only that in was found in his medical bag. Beyond what was in the affidavit I have no idea.

[?WudScoobyDo]

For all of our debating back and forth one thing seems obvious, at this point in time LAPD doesn't feel they have enough to arrest Murray.

It doesn't seem obvious to me. Except in the possibility that this case was a planned murder and Dr. Murray is cooperating by providing info that would lead to a 1st degree charge of someone else, as well as conspiracy charges..etc.

[Cindylee]

Well here is a new addition: Amazing that he has all of these "love" children...and then uses a sperm donor for the three he claims. Who are these people????

Alleged MJ Love Child Surfaces!

Posted Aug 26th 2009 3:00PM by TMZ Staff

Michael JacksonAs if there wasn't enough to figure out in the wake of Michael Jackson's death, a San Fran man is throwing his name into the circus -- claiming to be Michael Jackson's 24-year-old son!

According to a creditor's claim filed yesterday in L.A., a guy named Prince Michael Malachi Jet Jackson is requesting a DNA test to prove he is the biological son of the late King of Pop.

A birth certificate was submitted with the claim -- one which lists a "Michael Joseph Jackson" of Indiana as the father and Zerline LaVette Dixon as the mother.

According to the claim, MJ's family pressured Prince Michael Malachi's family to keep quiet.

Coincidentally, Prince Michael is the name of MJ's two "official" sons.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PKUppD1y

[Poochie Pie]

For all of our debating back and forth one thing seems obvious, at this point in time LAPD doesn't feel they have enough to arrest Murray. Agree, Unperson... However, I have a feeling that they are quietly circling the wagons...

Poochie

[Lyndawitha"Y]

For all of our debating back and forth one thing seems obvious, at this point in time LAPD doesn't feel they have enough to arrest Murray.

I dont think they need to arrest him as he has put himself into self imposed house arrest..believe if he attempts to flea..He'll be arrested immediately..Thats just my guess...I dont doubt he is being watched 24/7.. This self imposed arrest assumption comes from his own mouth on his YouTube video..where he is afraid to answer emails, phone calls etc....

LMS

[Unperson1984]

It doesn't seem obvious to me. Except in the possibility that this case was a planned murder and Dr. Murray is cooperating by providing info that would lead to a 1st degree charge of someone else, as well as conspiracy charges..etc.

So you think LAPD has a solid case but hasn't arrested Murray because........?

:confused:

[Rayosunshine]

According to the affidavit LAPD found Anexate in the room, that is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

Does anyone know if it is said anywhere that Murray gave the Anexate?

He may have, but it well could have been too late, like I said earlier, the curve on a graph from being alive and dead is a very sharp one, as it relates to oxygen saturation, not even considering any other problems, i.e., irregular heart rate/rhythm due to the amount and combination of drugs.

[retiredcop]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/drug-amounts-in-michael-jackson-death-probe-dont-add-up-medical-experts-say.html

I'm wondering if the tox screening reports were even back yet when the S/W was applied for. Doesn't it take approximately six weeks?

in my opinion

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I didn't claim Murray used the Anexate, only that in was found in his medical bag. Beyond what was in the affidavit I have no idea.


Goodness, I didnt say you did...only that if it was found there..maybe others (EMT's) used it....No more No Less.. Only was my perceptions of Dr. Murray's misrepresentations and timelines hit my hinky meter.

LMS

[Unperson1984]

I didn't claim Murray used the Anexate, only that in was found in his medical bag. Beyond what was in the affidavit I have no idea.

My mistake, according to the affidavit Murray did say he administered
.2mg of Anexate.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

page 10

[Poochie Pie]

What people? Do you have a link? Don't say the EMTs because an interview with the fire captain who was on the scene debunks that. Have you watched the documentary yet? No, I don't believe the fire captain is lying.

BTW that also debunks Mr Jackson was discovered not breathing at 11:00.

in my opinion So you are saying that Dr. Murray lied in his statement to the Police, retired...?? didn't he say in the interview that he "left the room for aprox 2 minutes to relieve himself and returned to find MJ not breathing"..?? Or am I mistaken on the time..??

Poochie

[Rayosunshine]

Narcan is a reversal agent for opiates, Anexate is a reversal agent for benzodiazepines.

The fact that Murray had Anexate on hand greatly undermines a claim of willful disregard for human life.

On the other hand, since Dr. Murray had on hand all of the drugs to counter the effects of those he gave Michael, I think this is a clear indication that Dr. Murray was well aware of what danger he was placing his patient in. Knowledge is powerful, but not when you misuse it.

[cantstandnuts]

Bolding mine.

I will wait for the autopsy report as to how the death is ruled. I will also wait for the tox report as to the drugs in his body.

I won't be surprised at a homicide ruling. As I have said in the past I think it is an accidental overdose either at Mr Jackson own hand or another person.

If Dr Murray is the only doctor facing charges I will be disappointed. Many doctors have fed Mr Jackson's addictions. Many prescriptions were found in the rented house.

I feel Mr Jackson is responsible for his own drug additions and did not want to stop no matter what.

I believe a conviction would be hard to get in this case.

Drugs are used off label many times by many doctors and I don't see why Diprivan can't be used the same way.

in my opinion

Diprivan shouldn't be in the same class as you seem to want it to be, meaning for insomnia off label. It is a drug used for anesthesia and should not be used for any other purpose. Let's say it was the only thing that could make Michael sleep so had to be used off label for that purpose. IF that were true, it should have been done in a hospital with all the necessary resuscitation equipment, NOT in a home with none of those things. That was completely irresponsible and you may not see why it shouldn't be used in the same way as other drugs that are used off label, but in that, IMO and with respect, you are wrong. The doctor should have to pay for that error in judgment because it has apparently led to Michael's death. No respectable MD with any sense in his/her head would ever have made that fatal mistake. Stupid, senseless and IMO criminal. We can never get to the point where we think this is okay.

IMO

[Rayosunshine]

So you think LAPD has a solid case but hasn't arrested Murray because........?

:confused:

I don't know why. I would like to know. I guess they want to make sure they have everything in order. Does Ca law say something about the victim's % of fault - if MJ was a greater fault than the Doctor, could be the Doctor will not be charged. i.e., MJ not telling the doctor about what drugs he already had on board and any other condition he withheld. In La. there is a %fault for MVA's , but I am not really clear on how it works, just know that it was applied in my son's case.

[retiredcop]

So you are saying that Dr. Murray lied in his statement to the Police, retired...?? didn't he say in the interview that he "left the room for aprox 2 minutes to relieve himself and returned to find MJ not breathing"..?? Or am I mistaken on the time..??

Poochie

There was no time mentioned when he left the room. According to his attorney, he never left the room. I am saying Mr Jackson was not found at 11:00 not breathing. If he were, rescue and ER wouldn not have worked on him as long as they did.

in my opinion

[Rayosunshine]

-------------
A planned murder? OMG U cant be serious.
But i would go as far as saying "assisted suicide". imo

Makes you wonder. MJ in seclusion for so long and all of a sudden in a flash he is overtaking England with 50 concerts to be performed. Often wonder if he knew he just couldn't do it and didn't want to live to admit failure. I dunno. It is sad, none the less.

[daniel green]

---------------
Hi Daniel..........yes but the poster says that she believes that MJ was dead hours before he was stabalized. Impossible. imo

And a hospital trauma ER work on recussitation for over an hour?

Not possible.