8/25

[daniel green]

Did you notice Mr Jackson's hand when he lifted it up. snipped

YES. :scared:

[retiredcop]

We do NOT know how often MJ used this. He was accompanied by an anasthesiologist during his 1993 tour to get put to "sleep" with anasthesia (although don't believe it was diprivan). The next time we heard about it was during the trial and then now during the rehearsals for his upcoming tour.

Just could be that he got very wired up in times of stress and could not sleep -- it does not mean though he used it continuously unless a source who actually administered it divulges this info.

We know he was a drug addict but that does not mean he abused drugs on a daily basis either -- could also relate to severe stress. We just don't know. JMO

Well then he shouldn't have been on speed either.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

The report the paramedics have to complete contradicted it and said he was already flatlined before arrival to the hospital. JMO

Nope.

You should watch the TVLand show. The dispatcher talks about it and talks about the 38 mins of stablizing the EMTs did at the behest of the ER doc, taking to the ER when he could be transported and worked on for over an hour before being pronounced dead.

[Unperson1984]

The report the paramedics have to complete contradicted it and said he was already flatlined before arrival to the hospital. JMO

Do you have a link to the paremedics' report?

Aside from your personal belief, are there reports disputing the original hospital timeline?

I willing to eat crow if I must. :wink:

[daniel green]

I watched the special Michael Jackson: His Final Day, it gives the time he arrived at the hospital and the time he was declared dead. The reporter claims this information came from the hospital.

I can't recall any report contradicting this information.

Yep. You're right. As well as the time the paramedics got to the house, how they stabalized him for transport, etc.

[Cindylee]

-------------

Its not his mannerisms either. I will never change my mind on this.
imo

Here it is. I really am beginning to agree with you. But, how would you find someone else that looked like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c00CwFA5JNE

[retiredcop]

I watched the special Michael Jackson: His Final Day, it gives the time he arrived at the hospital and the time he was declared dead. The reporter claims this information came from the hospital.

I can't recall any report contradicting this information.

There has only been speculation here. There were no reports of that. Speculation he hadn't just died when EMTs arrived. Speculation EMTs claimed he was dead. Speculation the ER doctors only worked on him a few minuets. Speculation he had been dead for three hours. Speculation the ER worked on him for the family for over an hour. The family began to arrive after he was pronounced dead.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

Which two anesthesiologists? If you are talking about Dr Klein and Dr. Murray, let me break this to you gently. Dr. Murray is a Cardiologist.

Oh, snark is so unbecoming while sitting down to a cold plate of crow.:blushing:

Look at the specialties of the docs for whom the LAPD asked for search warrants. :wink:

[Joanne_NH]

All I want to know is the coroner's report on how this is ruled. The autopsy is the source for me.

Why should the coroner's office, the LAPD, or the DA's office even confirm or deny this? It has already been said many times the results of the autopsy is not being released. The coroner's office or the LAPD would have to have a leak for that anonymous source.

I am doing my research to see if there is confirmation. All I want to know is if this case has been ruled a homicide or not.

I also think it odd that Geraldo said on his show Sunday night the Jacksons had informed him there would be a bombshell released on Monday. They did not tell him anything else about the bombshell.

Monday, an anonymous source came forward along with the release of the S/W. No where in the search warrant does anything say how the coroner ruled this case. Maybe the Jacksons had something to do with anonymous source? It sure brings the case back on the news and the Jacksons the publicity they crave. Could this be a push to have the coroner go ahead and release the autopsy report?

This is still only from one anonymous source.

in my opinion

Interesting article I found on how the autopsy was ruled a medical homicide.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

[Cindylee]

--------------------

Lots of people have surgery to look like celebrities. Add a wig and make-up. People will do anything for money and MJ probably paid a pretty penny to have this guy do it. i do say its a good likeness of MJ but not the real thing.
imo

You just might be right, I am thinking it wasn't him either.

[daniel green]

I didn't post it Daniel did. Here it is.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/25/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-drugs-prescription-polls/

Except I did not post it. :rolleyes:

[daniel green]

Just a silly questio..Do most on here really kniw what "Stabalized means"?..I oubt it..snipped

I would not have a clue as to "most on here." I do know what it means, if that is of any help, or in any way on topic.

[retiredcop]

The report the paramedics have to complete contradicted it and said he was already flatlined before arrival to the hospital. JMO

You haven't seen a report because it hasn't been released. More rumor.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

As we already reported, paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the house but Dr. Murray insisted they transport the singer to the hospital.

snipped

Funny how neither the police nor the dispatcher who recounted what happened step by step for the EMTs said that.:rolleyes: Or anything remotely like that.

[Unperson1984]

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

As we already reported, paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the house but Dr. Murray insisted they transport the singer to the hospital.

We're told at the UCLA Medical Center -- after doctors gave up on resuscitation efforts because Jackson was clearly dead -- Dr. Murray continued CPR, which some of the UCLA docs found curious.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

We already know that's not true. A poster called the UCLA ER and was told that no doctor without hospital privileges would be allowed to work on a patient.

It doesn't seem likely that the doctors at UCLA worked on a dead body for almost an hour, which they stated they did in a press release issued through their press office.

[daniel green]

snipped
But Dr Steven Hoefflin - a close friend of Jackson and speaking with the permission of his mother Katherine - CONFIRMS the details on the vital paperwork. Hoefflin, 63, told the News of the World: "I've spoken to a chief in the fire department who told me Michael was dead when they arrived.



http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/show...to-answer.html

OMG, you are surely not going by any trash that junk tabloid publishes????????:scared:

Or that some alleged friend of an alleged whatever allegedly talked to fire chief who allegedly said... Nonesense.

We have the Affidavit from LAPD and the words right from the horse's mouth, in the TVLand doc.

[daniel green]

Haven't seen anyone dispute it either :rolleyes:

Have you read the affidavit or watched the TV land doc?

[daniel green]

What drug addict get a buzz to go to sleep? snipped

All of them.

[Cindylee]

MJ Alive? Someone Wants You To Think So

Posted Aug 25th 2009 6:19PM by TMZ Staff

This video is probably as real as the existence of unicorns -- but the clip, claiming to show Michael Jackson walking out of the back of a Coroner's van after his "death," is making the rounds on the Internet today

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/25/michael-jackson-alive-video/

Ha, at this point I just might believe anything. Maybe that is why they don't want to bury him. :ohmy:

[sallemae]

"Stabilize" him..??? So, are they saying he died AT the Hospital, daniel..?? and that the EMT's did NOT want to "call it" when they got there..?? hmmmm... Interesting.. Still, IMO... he was gone before he ever arrived at the Hospital...

Poochie


I haven't watched the show yet, but did just listen to the 911 call again, he wasn't breathing, he wasn't responding to anything......I believe he was gone before he arrived at the hospital also.

They may have worked on him, but they were working on a dean man.

imo

[Cindylee]

-----------

Watch when he steps off the bus...........thats not MJ's walk. imo I am not familiar enough with MJ to know his walk, but I have heard his voice over and over since he died, and it just doesn't sound like him.

[?WudScoobyDo]

A tiny excess dose can stop the heart or suppress breathing and send the user into a coma from which he or she never comes back.

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-08-07-the-sevenminute-coma

It boggles my mind to think that some here can't accept that MJ died of an overdose of Propofol.


Dr. Murray will need supporters in the court room. Hopefully they can attend to show their support of the defense in this case.

[daniel green]

Yep!..He sure did..He got that "Eternal Sleep"..and I have to let those that may wonder..MJ went to sleep..never felt a thing..so did not suffer at all!!/// I kinda think that is how DP are carried out..but that is beside the point..snipped:

No, it's not at all how lethal injection works, in which the person being put to death really suffers:

"An intravenous saline drip shall be started in the prisoner's arm, into which shall be introduced a lethal injection consisting of an ultra-short-acting barbiturate in combination with a chemical paralytic."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection

[?WudScoobyDo]

Well..that seems obvious. MY BOLDING...I was only trying to explain the term..Now..Your sarcasm isnt appreciated!! Since you snippet most posts(I know for bandwidth???)..to suggest such silliness..I would appreciate if you just bypassed my posting..TYIA

LMS:sneaky:

I too would appreciate being put on the bypass list. Hope you won't mind my company.

[?WudScoobyDo]

OMG, you are surely not going by any trash that junk tabloid publishes????????:scared:

Or that some alleged friend of an alleged whatever allegedly talked to fire chief who allegedly said... Nonesense.

We have the Affidavit from LAPD and the words right from the horse's mouth, in the TVLand doc.


TV land? One of my favorite shows is on that channel (Andy Griffith). When did they report about MJ's death?

[daniel green]

To stabilize” is defined as:

to provide such medical treatment of the condition as may be necessary to assure, within reasonable medical probability, that no material deterioration of the condition is likely to result from or occur during the transfer of the individual from a facility

http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2006/11/hlaw1-0611.html

[daniel green]

Have you read the affidavit or watched the TV land doc?

Man oh man, my cognitive problems kicking in, must be from my stressful week thus far. A bit of a MS fog settling in, I fear.

I meant to write TVGuide Channel. :blushing:

[daniel green]

Just a silly question .. What Stabilized means?? .It only means they have estabished an airway, and in this case CPR was in progress..I does not mean he was alive..or dead..since no one on that EMT team could pronouce that..and Dr. Murray insisted even tho MJ was cold and flatlined....

snippped


The problem I have with this kind of post, is that it gives incorrect info.

Stabalising does not only mean=establish an airway.

And here we have a multitute of posts alleging that the EMTs wanted to call it a DOA but Murray prevented them from doing so, and yet you say EMTs cannot do that.

There are enough problems with facts and rumors in this, and any case, to have dubious medical info given out as if factual, when it's not.

[daniel green]

So you believe the doctors at UCLA didn't realize they were working on a dead person for almost an hour?

For real. :tongueside:

[daniel green]

Oops, sorry, I thought it was you. :mellow:

Nope. It was Flipflop.

No problem.

[Imperfect4]

<snipped to address>

I don't know about you...but when person decides to become a parent to three children, it shouldn't be considered lightly. IMO The unspoken moral oath when becoming a parent far surpasses some oath a doctor takes. imo

Bolding mine. You took the words right off my fingertips, LQ. I've had that very thought soooooo many times as I've read through the MJ threads.

[Cindylee]

Lynda is absolutely correct -- "stabilization for transport" does not indicate whether the patient is dead or alive:

Stabilization for Transport
Airway and Breathing

Airway patency during transport is of primary importance. Potential airway compromise must be anticipated before transport so that proper interventions can be undertaken to ensure that the airway is protected. Performing airway maneuvers in a transport vehicle are, at the least, challenging and often are unsuccessful.

http://www.netce.com/coursecontent.php?courseid=432#STABILIZATIONFORTRA NSPORT

How long were the EMT's at the house?

[daniel green]

You know I love ya more then my luggage, but I think you are on the wrong side with this one doll. Bet ya a cyber beer that Murray is arrested within 2 weeks. Are we on? :thumbsup:

Scamp--he probly will be arrested. I am not going to bet on that. But I bet that Klein is a world of trouble, as well.

[daniel green]

How long were the EMT's at the house?

As per that doc we've been talking about 38 mins, stabalizing MJ for transport.

[daniel green]

Daniel, it is TVGN on my TV Menu. I assume different channels with different providers. Mine is Comcast channel 74.

Right--the TV Guide Network.

http://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/michael-jackson/tv-listings/166112

I see they have a couple of new documentaries about MJ now, as well.

I have seen the one about the Last Days and the MJ's Entourage--where are they now.

[Imperfect4]

She is a child. Children have been known to say very good things about very bad parents.

in my opinion

So true. Kids beaten within an inch of their lives claim they ran into a door and mommy or daddy is the "best in the world." It's a horrible situation for a child to be in, and thank God people trained to know the difference don't take every child's word for it when she says she has the best daddy in the world. We'd have many more children tortured and beaten to death if everyone took them at their word.

It fits the argument to believe Paris. It's not about a concern for Paris, it's about an agenda to elevate her father to sainthood. :rolleyes:

[daniel green]

Yea - stabilizing for transport is what they were doing -- doesn't mean he was alive and they cannot override a personal physician's orders. The physician's decision supercedes anything they think.

HUH? :confused:

This was my post:

Yep. You're right. As well as the time the paramedics got to the house, how they stabalized him for transport, etc.

Then Lynda chimed in about wondering if most on here know what stabilizing means, etc. :rolleyes:

[daniel green]

snipped

I did not say stabilzed meant Established airway only..and I noted you deleted your previous post..with link..why?cause it actually backed up what I stated??..

HUH? :confused:

I did not delete any post with a link.

It's obvious, both from my own statement above and my spelling (or total lack thereof) that I am having a bit of an MS flareup with its attendant cognitive problems. So, I have been going back to try to correct the most egregious spelling problems that I see.

[daniel green]

So true. Kids beaten within an inch of their lives claim they ran into a door and mommy or daddy is the "best in the world." snipped

They do. Tragically, they do.

[Cindylee]

As per that doc we've been talking about 38 mins, stabalizing MJ for transport. That seems like a long time to me. They have had my Dad out of the house in under 10min. Doesn't that seem long?

[Imperfect4]

Well, I don't know, but why didn't he use his "normal" Fake voice. In that announcement his voice was much lower, and not as sweety sweety, sing song like. It would sure be hard to find someone who looked like him at that point though.

I have read more than one source over the years claiming MJ had a normal voice, depending on the circumstance.

That's the thing about MJ -- he was *on* in public. He was a trained performer, and imo, every time he appeared in public, and even on those videos shot at his home and the home of that friend of his, he was *on*. It's very difficult to know what's real about a person who is always *on*.

[daniel green]

Well, I don't know, but why didn't he use his "normal" Fake voice. snipped.

He seemed totally wired to me in that. Provigil?

[Imperfect4]

-------------

Its not his mannerisms either. I will never change my mind on this.
imo

This is very interesting, Buzz. I'll have to look more closely next time. I must admit I thought his hair looked better in that clip than I've ever seen it. Hmm.

[?WudScoobyDo]

So true. Kids beaten within an inch of their lives claim they ran into a door and mommy or daddy is the "best in the world." It's a horrible situation for a child to be in, and thank God people trained to know the difference don't take every child's word for it when she says she has the best daddy in the world. We'd have many more children tortured and beaten to death if everyone took them at their word.

It fits the argument to believe Paris. It's not about a concern for Paris, it's about an agenda to elevate her father to sainthood. :rolleyes:


Are you suggesting MJ's kids were tortured and beaten? And if not, how is it relevant to a MJ thread?

Why do you have an issue with Paris because she proclaimed what her father was to her? She probably does see her Daddy as a Saint, and that is her right. Why would anyone want to deprive her of thinking highly of him? How does any of it affect your life in such a way, that you feel compelled to criticize a dead man, who can't defend himself?

[daniel green]

Ouch! And you called me snarky? Touche' :biggrin:

OK, you made me laugh out loud with that one! :biggrin:

[Cindylee]

I have read more than one source over the years claiming MJ had a normal voice, depending on the circumstance.

That's the thing about MJ -- he was *on* in public. He was a trained performer, and imo, every time he appeared in public, and even on those videos shot at his home and the home of that friend of his, he was *on*. It's very difficult to know what's real about a person who is always *on*.

I guess that is what I am having a problem with. Why wouldn't he be "on" as you are saying during his big announcement. It was for me a totally different voice a cadence. Normally (or not) he has that sweet soft high voice, with the sing songy cadence. This was a much deeper voice, and none of the affection. I don't know, just seems strange to me. When Buzzzzzzzzz first posted about his/her feelings about this, I thought he/she was nuts, (sorry Buzzzzzzz), but now that I am more aware of MJ's voice, it is very noticeable. To me and Buzzzzzz anyway. :laugh:

[?WudScoobyDo]

LOL..welcome aboard..I have no issues with disagreement.but when someone snips a post to be sarcastic.Hits a nerve with me..one has to read the WHOLE context!! at least IMO...I didnt feel I was being condescending....only advising realities of ACUTE CARE on the scenes and ER realities..

Geesh WudScoobyDo...I have had it with such nonsense rhetorics!!

LMS:seeya:


You know what Lynda? I really appreciate your posts, and realize you have been attacked many times by sharing your knowledge with us. I want you to know that when I read your posts I really feel that you are offering the forum real, unbiased information, based upon your expertise and common sense. I hope to read many more of your enlightening posts.
Scooby

[daniel green]

url]http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2006/11/hlaw1-0611.html

BTW..this is a link I quoted from you which you deleted..but for the life of me it does back you distain for my input here...??

snipped
I have no idea what your post means. I don't understand a word of it.

But I did not delete any link or post. It's right there on this very page.

Post 239

:confused::huh:

[Cindylee]

Are you suggesting MJ's kids were tortured and beaten? And if not, how is it relevant to a MJ thread?

Why do you have an issue with Paris because she proclaimed what her father was to her? She probably does see her Daddy as a Saint, and that is her right. Why would anyone want to deprive her of thinking highly of him? How does any of it affect your life in such a way, that you feel compelled to criticize a dead man, who can't defend himself?

This comment about criticizing a dead man is getting a bit old. This is a message board. MJ is dead, he is not going to read it. As for the children, there are thousands of sites on line to read good and bad about their father. I doubt they would stumble on this one either. And, they are eventually going to hear it all anyway.

[Unperson1984]

A tiny excess dose can stop the heart or suppress breathing and send the user into a coma from which he or she never comes back.

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-08-07-the-sevenminute-coma

It boggles my mind to think that some here can't accept that MJ died of an overdose of Propofol.

I believe he died of an overdose of propofol, I just doubt the 11 AM time stated in the warrant affidavit. I don't believe the excellent doctors at UCLA would have worked for almost an hour on a body that had been dead for over two hours.

[daniel green]

That seems like a long time to me. They have had my Dad out of the house in under 10min. Doesn't that seem long?

It did seem long to me, too. But the dispatcher clearly knew what he was talking about--he was very descriptive of what went on and who was speaking to whom, and who gave the orders and why.

[daniel green]

This comment about criticizing a dead man is getting a bit old. snipped.

Yeah.

Oh, and boring.

[impartial]

Lynda is absolutely correct -- "stabilization for transport" does not indicate whether the patient is dead or alive. The affidavit also pretty much states what they were told by Dr. Murray.

Stabilization for Transport
Airway and Breathing

Airway patency during transport is of primary importance. Potential airway compromise must be anticipated before transport so that proper interventions can be undertaken to ensure that the airway is protected. Performing airway maneuvers in a transport vehicle are, at the least, challenging and often are unsuccessful.

http://www.netce.com/coursecontent.php?courseid=432#STABILIZATIONFORTRA NSPORT


I have never seen the term "stabalized" used for a dead person. There is no need to anticipate a compromised airway when the person is dead.

imo

[Imperfect4]

Here it is. I really am beginning to agree with you. But, how would you find someone else that looked like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c00CwFA5JNE

I'm really wondering. It could be him -- but why aren't his lips that rosy shade? Whoever this is, he seems high to me.

As for who else you could find who looked like that, there are several MJ impressionists in Vegas who come close.

[TunaMelt]

This comment about criticizing a dead man is getting a bit old. This is a message board. MJ is dead, he is not going to read it. As for the children, there are thousands of sites on line to read good and bad about their father. I doubt they would stumble on this one either. And, they are eventually going to hear it all anyway.

Edited! This is not a reply to Cindylee, but a reply to the person she was replying to. ?? Sorry for the confusion! I agree with you, Cindylee, as you can see:It is a fact that just because a person is dead, he does not become a saint.

This "don't speak ill of the dead" thing is just another way of saying "I don't like what you're saying about Michael Jackson." As Cindylee said, this is a message board. Opinions are what fuels its engines.

MJ is dead, he can't speak, but we can -- give our opinions on the issues surrounding his death, both good and bad, flattering and un-.

He was just a man, he was never a saint, death doesn't make him one.

That's the facts.

[Cindylee]

I'm really wondering. It could be him -- but why aren't his lips that rosy shade? Whoever this is, he seems high to me.

As for who else you could find who looked like that, there are several MJ impressionists in Vegas who come close. The person seemed out of it for sure. Very slow. As to the Vegas guys, which MJ? There have been so many faces.

[daniel green]

This "don't speak ill of the dead" thing is just another way of saying "I don't like what you're saying about Michael Jackson."

snipped.

Exactly that, is all.

Excellent post.

[daniel green]

I have never seen the term "stabalized" used for a dead person. There is no need to anticipate a compromised airway when the person is dead.

imo

Why, thank you, Impartial! :wink:

Just so.

[Cindylee]

Edited! This is not a reply to Cindylee, but a reply to the person she was replying to. ?? Sorry for the confusion! I agree with you, Cindylee, as you can see:It is a fact that just because a person is dead, he does not become a saint.

This "don't speak ill of the dead" thing is just another way of saying "I don't like what you're saying about Michael Jackson." As Cindylee said, this is a message board. Opinions are what fuels its engines.

MJ is dead, he can't speak, but we can -- give our opinions on the issues surrounding his death, both good and bad, flattering and un-.

He was just a man, he was never a saint, death doesn't make him one.

That's the facts.

Exactly. :smile:

[Imperfect4]

MJ Alive? Someone Wants You To Think So

Posted Aug 25th 2009 6:19PM by TMZ Staff

This video is probably as real as the existence of unicorns -- but the clip, claiming to show Michael Jackson walking out of the back of a Coroner's van after his "death," is making the rounds on the Internet today

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/25/michael-jackson-alive-video/

I guess something like this was inevitable. :rolleyes:

[daniel green]

snippedThis is a message board. MJ is dead, he is not going to read it. .

You know what, that is exactly right, and the obvious point.

[daniel green]

I quoted myself here to clear the air...Since you gave a link.and gave a snippet..it did not come out..You are one good tweeter..know all the ins and outs..LOL..I will give you that...

LMS:sneaky:

Is this to/about me? :confused:

I don't tweet, btw. I would not/could not tweet if my life depended on it. :biggrin:

[daniel green]

snipped. And, they are eventually going to hear it all anyway.

They will, unfortunately. I bet they already do know much more than we shall ever know. :sad:

[impartial]

url]http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2006/11/hlaw1-0611.html

BTW..this is a link I quoted from you which you deleted..but for the life of me it does back you distain for my input here...??

dANIAEL..please..get with the point.It may very well come out in a courtroom..but frim some accounts MJ was VERY DEAD at the scene and it was DR> MURRAY who insisted..so they followed his orders..(They cannot countermand Dr. on site)..but I am telling you and others..EMT's stabilze by intubation/CPR/IV line..and give meds as ordered by DOC (Doctor in Charge..aka Rampart)..Phycisian online to order...So..TY for you intellegent link...Once again..pick your disses..I have been onsite and saw it for over 30 years..so please dont try to dispute the reality of what actually happened here..Geesh!

LMS


I haven't yet viewed the TVGuide show, but from what has been posted, the EMT's were interviewed and said they were in contact with the ER physician's while working on MJ at his house, the ER physicians were directing the care ... apparently Murray was no longer providing or directing the care once the EMT's arrived.

I have it set to record so I can see for myself their interviews.

imo

[Imperfect4]

Are you suggesting MJ's kids were tortured and beaten? And if not, how is it relevant to a MJ thread?

Why do you have an issue with Paris because she proclaimed what her father was to her? She probably does see her Daddy as a Saint, and that is her right. Why would anyone want to deprive her of thinking highly of him? How does any of it affect your life in such a way, that you feel compelled to criticize a dead man, who can't defend himself?

lol

lolololol

[Cindylee]

They will, unfortunately. I bet they already do know much more than we shall ever know. :sad:

I am sure they do a lot. At least the older ones. As you know they are very bright children. Children heard everything.....eventually. IMO

[?WudScoobyDo]

This comment about criticizing a dead man is getting a bit old. This is a message board. MJ is dead, he is not going to read it. As for the children, there are thousands of sites on line to read good and bad about their father. I doubt they would stumble on this one either. And, they are eventually going to hear it all anyway.


It has always been my understanding that the IS board took some sort of pride in victim advocating, that belittling, condeming, etc of the victim, or the victims family members would not be tolerated. I don't think it would be okay if we crucified a rape victim because her skirt was too short. Or the murder of a woman who maybe once was a prostitute. I have seen CW warn against victim bashing many times.

Did the rules that apply to all other victims being discussed on IS change because its Michael Jackson, and somehow he isn't entitled to the same level of respect as other victims? One example is Julie Jensen.. how is it that her victim status was so much different, even though she committed marital sins of the type her husband was accused of killing her for?

While it may not be filed in court yet, there is little doubt that MJ's death has been ruled a homicide. He is the victim of that homicide, and should be afforded the same respect as the other victims.

imo...of course.

[Cindylee]

I haven't yet viewed the TVGuide show, but from what has been posted, the EMT's were interviewed and said they were in contact with the ER physician's while working on MJ at his house, the ER physicians were directing the care ... apparently Murray was no longer providing or directing the care once the EMT's arrived.

I have it set to record so I can see for myself their interviews.

imo Yes, according to the program, that was my understanding of what was going on.

[impartial]

Isn't it? Perhaps he, Elvis and Tupac are hanging out? :laugh:


I can hardly see the person exiting the coroner's van, let alone make an ID from that video.

But I'm always up for a good conspiracy theory. :smile:

[Cindylee]

It has always been my understanding that the IS board took some sort of pride in victim advocating, that belittling, condeming, etc of the victim, or the victims family members would not be tolerated. I don't think it would be okay if we crucified a rape victim because her skirt was too short. Or the murder of a woman who maybe once was a prostitute. I have seen CW warn against victim bashing many times.

Did the rules that apply to all other victims being discussed on IS change because its Michael Jackson, and somehow he isn't entitled to the same level of respect as other victims? One example is Julie Jensen.. how is it that her victim status was so much different, even though she committed marital sins of the type her husband was accused of killing her for?

While it may not be filed in court yet, there is little doubt that MJ's death has been ruled a homicide. He is the victim of that homicide, and should be afforded the same respect as the other victims.

imo...of course.

I don't exactly consider MJ a victim. I feel bad that he died. And I feel bad for his children. But, in my opinion he was a walking time bomb. I think the Dr. was wrong, I think MJ was wrong.

[daniel green]

I'm really wondering. It could be him -- but why aren't his lips that rosy shade? Whoever this is, he seems high to me.

As for who else you could find who looked like that, there are several MJ impressionists in Vegas who come close.

Those sure are MJ's hands, and the lips have been reshaped/filled yet again and he's got a different shade of color on.

OMG, he is skeletal there. Could not have been over 110 lbs.

Did you see that new swagger when he came out of the plane/helicopter and walked into the building? That's new. Just like the voice.

The nose was completely different yet again. This one really did look prosthetic.

But sheesh, he certainly does look high. Tweaking. :scared:

[Roxxanne]

The person seemed out of it for sure. Very slow. As to the Vegas guys, which MJ? There have been so many faces.

Go to this site and scroll through the pix. It's him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/05/michael-jacksons-face-dur_n_172242.html

[Imperfect4]

I guess that is what I am having a problem with. Why wouldn't he be "on" as you are saying during his big announcement. It was for me a totally different voice a cadence. Normally (or not) he has that sweet soft high voice, with the sing songy cadence. This was a much deeper voice, and none of the affection. I don't know, just seems strange to me. When Buzzzzzzzzz first posted about his/her feelings about this, I thought he/she was nuts, (sorry Buzzzzzzz), but now that I am more aware of MJ's voice, it is very noticeable. To me and Buzzzzzz anyway. :laugh:

I think it's entirely conceivable this wasn't MJ. Why they'd serve up an impostor, I have no idea. Perhaps MJ was so upset about the number of concerts he had to do, he refused to do their presser? (Pure speculation on my part, of course.)

Yes, the voice was different. The mannerisms were slightly off. The hair was fabulous, but the lips weren't the rosy shade of pink I'm accustomed to seeing (didn't I read somewhere he had them permanently stained as a part of his ongoing cosmetic makeover?).

Anyways, whoever it was, imo, he seemed high. Stoned.

[GentleBreeze]

My Bolding~~
SO you are saying they can?..IF you believe that you are mistaken.....NO EMT can countermand a Physician's order..no matter if that Dr, appears to be out of sorts..as they dont have time to check out credentials...So pleeze give yourself a break!

I have great crow recipes..and after this case goes to court.you will actually hear things..that might astound you...Me..I already understand it all..

I did not say stabilzed meant Established airway only..and I noted you deleted your previous post..with link..why?cause it actually backed up what I stated??..but if you stop and read the entire post I wrote..I also mentioned a silly thing like CPR..IV line..drugs administered as orders..So pleeze..Is this daniel bashing Lynda Night?..Geesh!!

LMS

I just wanted to tell you, thank you, Lynda. I read everyone of your posts and find them very informative.

imo

[Cindylee]

I can hardly see the person exiting the coroner's van, let alone make an ID from that video.

But I'm always up for a good conspiracy theory. :smile::lol:.......

[daniel green]

I haven't yet viewed the TVGuide show, but from what has been posted, the EMT's were interviewed and said they were in contact with the ER physician's while working on MJ at his house, the ER physicians were directing the care ... apparently Murray was no longer providing or directing the care once the EMT's arrived.

I have it set to record so I can see for myself their interviews.

imo

Actually, their boss, who said what they did and who they talked to, that they stabelized MJ till the ER doc thought he was safe to be transported to the ER, etc.

[Imperfect4]

This comment about criticizing a dead man is getting a bit old. This is a message board. MJ is dead, he is not going to read it. As for the children, there are thousands of sites on line to read good and bad about their father. I doubt they would stumble on this one either. And, they are eventually going to hear it all anyway.

They lived it. Let's not kid ourselves. I don't expect the child to badmouth her father. I do expect the child to need professional counseling for the foreseeable future. Hopefully her grandmother will see she receives it.

[impartial]

Only a physician can declare a person dead NOT EMT.


Well then the laws need to change when a person dies at home ... the coroner or ME must come to the house ... EMT's cannot transport dead bodies, even though the EMT's are the first to respond.

Declaring a person dead and recognizing a person is dead are 2 different things. Once the EMT recognizes the person is dead at home, the coroner's office is the next call, the ME or coroner goes to the house, performs an investigation, and directs transport to the morgue or to a funeral home.

imo

[daniel green]

snipped

Yes, the voice was different. The mannerisms were slightly off. The hair was fabulous, but the lips weren't the rosy shade of pink I'm accustomed to seeing (didn't I read somewhere he had them permanently stained as a part of his ongoing cosmetic makeover?).

Anyways, whoever it was, imo, he seemed high. Stoned.

Yeah, mannerisms were just a tad off. But that seemed to me to be because he was jaw-clenchingly wired. Comingoutofhiskin wired. Waayyyyyyyy more than provigil, imo.

It was the hands/wrists that seemed 100% MJ. The fingernails.

[Imperfect4]

I have never seen the term "stabalized" used for a dead person. There is no need to anticipate a compromised airway when the person is dead.

imo

Thank you. Thought I was losing my marbles. :blink:

[Cindylee]

Go to this site and scroll through the pix. It's him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/05/michael-jacksons-face-dur_n_172242.html

Well, that sure does look like him.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I don't exactly consider MJ a victim. I feel bad that he died. And I feel bad for his children. But, in my opinion he was a walking time bomb. I think the Dr. was wrong, I think MJ was wrong.


Its okay.. I just noticed that the post I had replied to already had your explanation. I apologize for asking again. The utter disrespect and angst is acceptable because he's dead and won't be reading it.

Fair enough.

[daniel green]

snipped

Declaring a person dead and recognizing a person is dead are 2 different things. Once the EMT recognizes the person is dead at home, the coroner's office is the next call, the ME or coroner goes to the house, performs an investigation, and directs transport to the morgue or to a funeral home.

imo

Yep, yep, yep.

That's how it works.

Seems strange to me that the very posters who have gone of for pages about how the EMTs wanted to call MJ DOA but Murray kept them going are the same ones now who are saying EMTs couldn't do so. :tongueside:

[Imperfect4]

The person seemed out of it for sure. Very slow. As to the Vegas guys, which MJ? There have been so many faces.

All of them, up until a few years ago when he went into seclusion or stopped performing or whatever.

Outside Vegas, I'd say there's still a good possibility you could find more than a few people who've gone to the trouble and expense to alter themselves to look like him. Look at the hero-worship right here on this board. :scared:

[Imperfect4]

Edited! This is not a reply to Cindylee, but a reply to the person she was replying to. ?? Sorry for the confusion! I agree with you, Cindylee, as you can see:It is a fact that just because a person is dead, he does not become a saint.

This "don't speak ill of the dead" thing is just another way of saying "I don't like what you're saying about Michael Jackson." As Cindylee said, this is a message board. Opinions are what fuels its engines.

MJ is dead, he can't speak, but we can -- give our opinions on the issues surrounding his death, both good and bad, flattering and un-.

He was just a man, he was never a saint, death doesn't make him one.

That's the facts.

Ms. Melt! :seeya:

Precisely!

[daniel green]

Personally I appreciate your input and the snipping of posts is very rude to say the least especially when it takes statements made totally out of context and CW has addressed it:

[/B]

I have not snipped anything out on context.

Lynda made a statement re stabilizing a patient by EMTs that was factually incorrect. I corrected it.

[Imperfect4]

Isn't it? Perhaps he, Elvis and Tupac are hanging out? :laugh:

Honestly. And how sad was that clip? That could've been ME getting out of that van as fuzzy as the shot was and as well hidden as "MJ" was, fgs. :rolleyes:

[retiredcop]

Interesting article I found on how the autopsy was ruled a medical homicide.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

This is interesting, but I have never heard of anything like this.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

You are correct however Dr. Murray insisted that MJ be taken to the hospital and they cannot make a decision that overrides a physician's at the scene:

When EMTs arrived at Michael Jackson's home yesterday, the medics wanted to pronounce him dead on the scene -- but Michael's personal doctor refused to let them "call it" -- this according to sources close to the situation.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/emergency-workers-felt-jackson-dead-at-scene/7#ixzz0PFSdhSQK

Geeze louise.

That is NOT what is in either the affidavit by LAPD nor what the dispatcher who actually handled the EMTs at MJ's and managed the transport to the hospital say. :cursing:

And here you are arguing the other side of the argument again. Now in this it says the EMTs wanted to call it. Did you not just say that EMTs can't do that?????????

[Cindylee]

Its okay.. I just noticed that the post I had replied to already had your explanation. I apologize for asking again. The utter disrespect and angst is acceptable because he's dead and won't be reading it.

Fair enough.

That, and I don't think he was a victim. He paid the Dr. to give him all of those drugs. He paid Dr.'s to write scripts for him. He was not an innocent child. He knew what he was doing. What exactly am I supposed to be respecting Mj for again?

[Cindylee]

All of them, up until a few years ago when he went into seclusion or stopped performing or whatever.

Outside Vegas, I'd say there's still a good possibility you could find more than a few people who've gone to the trouble and expense to alter themselves to look like him. Look at the hero-worship right here on this board. :scared: Well, you are probably right, but I hope they stuck to the 80's MJ for their sakes.

[daniel green]

Honestly. And how sad was that clip? That could've been ME getting out of that van as fuzzy as the shot was and as well hidden as "MJ" was, fgs. :rolleyes:

In the TV Guide program, they talked about how the photogs put their cameras right to the ambulance's windows and snapped those pictures we have seen of MJ on the gurney.

Also, something I did not know before--MJ's children went to the hospital, and after Dr M told the Jacksons that MJ was dead, the children were taken back to see their father and say goodby.

[?WudScoobyDo]

This is interesting, but I have never heard of anything like this.

in my opinion


Have you ever conducted an autopsy?

[daniel green]

That, and I don't think he was a victim. He paid the Dr. to give him all of those drugs. He paid Dr.'s to write scripts for him. He was not an innocent child. He knew what he was doing. What exactly am I supposed to be respecting Mj for again?

If a heroin addict pays a drug dealer 150K for heroin and the dealer gives him some bad heroin or uncut heroin, and even shoots him/her up with it, nobody would be sitting here arguing that it was not the heroin addict's fault. KWIM?

[retiredcop]

That seems like a long time to me. They have had my Dad out of the house in under 10min. Doesn't that seem long?

Not really. I've seen longer and shorter. They were in touch with the ER doctors who were giving them orders on stabilizing him and also told them they couldn't do any more in the field and to package him and get him to the ER after that amount of time had passed.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

If a heroin addict pays a drug dealer 150K for heroin and the dealer gives him some bad heroin or uncut heroin, and even shoots him/her up with it, nobody would be sitting here arguing that it was not the heroin addict's fault. KWIM? Yes, IKWYM.

[?WudScoobyDo]

That, and I don't think he was a victim. He paid the Dr. to give him all of those drugs. He paid Dr.'s to write scripts for him. He was not an innocent child. He knew what he was doing. What exactly am I supposed to be respecting Mj for again?


Nevermind. I understand your philosophy on the issue, and whether I agree with it or not, I can't deny you the right to subscribe to it.

imo...of course.

[Cindylee]

Nevermind. I understand your philosophy on the issue, and whether I agree with it or not, I can't deny you the right to subscribe to it.

imo...of course.

Thank you.

[Imperfect4]

Yeah, mannerisms were just a tad off. But that seemed to me to be because he was jaw-clenchingly wired. Comingoutofhiskin wired. Waayyyyyyyy more than provigil, imo.

It was the hands/wrists that seemed 100% MJ. The fingernails.

You could be right, dg. I haven't studied MJ's hands/fingernails to any degree, but hands are very hard to "impersonate," and normally I'm a hand watcher, too, so I get ya.

[Imperfect4]

Well, that sure does look like him.

The article claims it's a wig, so that would explain my amazement at his hair. :laugh:

[?WudScoobyDo]

If a heroin addict pays a drug dealer 150K for heroin and the dealer gives him some bad heroin or uncut heroin, and even shoots him/her up with it, nobody would be sitting here arguing that it was not the heroin addict's fault. KWIM?


I once had a dear friend. Her name was Pam. She was a heroin addict, and so was her husband. One night they bought some heroin and it turned out to be rat poison instead of heroin. Both her and her husband died within minutes of the injections. I never thought it was her fault, and neither did the police. I'm not going to argue it, just thought I would share it, as I have thought of it many times over the years.

[daniel green]

There was a very interesting interview last night on Keith Olbermann with the writer for The Daily Beast, who had just interviewed Murray this week as well as had some very interesting info about the case and the other docs involved.

Unforunately, the transcripts are not up yet.

[daniel green]

The article claims it's a wig, so that would explain my amazement at his hair. :laugh:

In the reports of him at autopsy he was said to be completely bald.

[Roxxanne]

I once had a dear friend. Her name was Pam. She was a heroin addict, and so was her husband. One night they bought some heroin and it turned out to be rat poison instead of heroin. Both her and her husband died within minutes of the injections. I never thought it was her fault, and neither did the police. I'm not going to argue it, just thought I would share it, as I have thought of it many times over the years.

Sorry about your friend Scooby. I don't know if anyone remembers but me, lol, but the girl that shot up John Belushi was arrested and charged and served time for it.

[daniel green]

You could be right, dg. I haven't studied MJ's hands/fingernails to any degree, but hands are very hard to "impersonate," and normally I'm a hand watcher, too, so I get ya.

I am a hand-watcher, too. And although certainly I have not studied his hands, much, either, his fingernails were a strange color--and that appears to be the case in the March video.

[Imperfect4]

That, and I don't think he was a victim. He paid the Dr. to give him all of those drugs. He paid Dr.'s to write scripts for him. He was not an innocent child. He knew what he was doing. What exactly am I supposed to be respecting Mj for again?

There are very few people here "disrespecting" MJ. Most of us are discussing MJ -- the good and the bad.

Scooby is trying to shut down discussion of anything negative, apparently. Last time I checked, this was a discussion board.

[Roxxanne]

In the reports of him at autopsy he was said to be completely bald.

You mean the report that the LA coroner's office said was fake?

[retiredcop]

You are correct however Dr. Murray insisted that MJ be taken to the hospital and they cannot treat the person as "dead".

When EMTs arrived at Michael Jackson's home yesterday, the medics wanted to pronounce him dead on the scene -- but Michael's personal doctor refused to let them "call it" -- this according to sources close to the situation.

But our sources say M.J.'s doc demanded EMTs continue performing CPR anyway, and demanded that they take Michael to the hospital.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/emergency-workers-felt-jackson-dead-at-scene/7#ixzz0PFSttcNQ

That is absolutely not true. I saw the interview with the fire captain who was on the scene. You need to watch Michael Jackson: His Final Days on TV Guide Channel. That will help you understand what occurred.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Have you ever conducted an autopsy?

What kind of question is that? Who said I was an ME? :laugh::rolleyes:

I chose not to answer personal questions.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

In the TV Guide program, they talked about how the photogs put their cameras right to the ambulance's windows and snapped those pictures we have seen of MJ on the gurney.

Also, something I did not know before--MJ's children went to the hospital, and after Dr M told the Jacksons that MJ was dead, the children were taken back to see their father and say goodby.

Yes, I'd read/heard about their hospital visit and saying good-bye to their dad. Blanket is what ... 7? Very young, imo, to be in the room with his dead dad. I'm not sure whose idea this was (Prince's?), but imo, an actual ADULT should've intervened and prevented the little guy, at least, from the potential trauma of that scene. Kids are forced to grow up way too fast these days. imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

That is absolutely not true. I saw the interview with the fire captain who was on the scene. You need to watch Michael Jackson: His Final Days on TV Guide Channel. That will help you understand what occurred.

in my opinion

When did the TV guide channel become the authority on emergency medical procedures and protocol?

[RootBeer]

I know I should just let this one go by but I just couldn't.

Oh I doubt that. If what they say is true, about what drugs were found, then MJ could have easily taken an overdose on all the pills instead of having a doctor put him permanently to sleep.

Michael wanted to die, but did not want to kill himself, he wanted the Dr. to do it.

[?WudScoobyDo]

What kind of question is that? Who said I was an ME? :laugh::rolleyes:

I chose not to answer personal questions.:biggrin:

in my opinion


The article was about autopsy and arriving at determination. You said you never heard of that stuff before, and I wondered if you had a reason to have ever heard of that type stuff in your line of work. I never heard that stuff before either, but then I would't expect to since Ive never witnessed or conducted an autopsy.

It was an innocent question, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

[sallemae]

That, and I don't think he was a victim. He paid the Dr. to give him all of those drugs. He paid Dr.'s to write scripts for him. He was not an innocent child. He knew what he was doing. What exactly am I supposed to be respecting Mj for again?


Because he was a human being with faults.

Have you any skeletons in your closet......? What happens when they are let out?

Since when is it acceptable to be hateful and disrespectful, just because you can be that way, since the person wont' read it..... what has our society come to.

imo

[daniel green]

I want to say I watched a clip of the rehearsal after everyone
was going on about how great he looked and all.

I saw a lot of marching in place and hand waving. When he did
turn on one leg to start the marching thing again, he was off
balance and wobbly.

I have some serious doubts about the insurance physical he took.

I agree. It was very sad, actually. MJ had this gorgeous move during his career--where he would extend both hands up to shoulder-lever, palms up. A very elegant move that he did all the time. Watch that rehearsal vid snippet where he tries to do that and he can't.
:sad:

The stomping of the one foot is strange, too, not quite on tempo, certainly not the MJ of old who was so crisp with his movements, all of them finished so elegantly.

[daniel green]

Yes, I'd read/heard about their hospital visit and saying good-bye to their dad. Blanket is what ... 7? Very young, imo, to be in the room with his dead dad. I'm not sure whose idea this was (Prince's?), but imo, an actual ADULT should've intervened and prevented the little guy, at least, from the potential trauma of that scene. Kids are forced to grow up way too fast these days. imo

I know. :sad: That was my thought, too. The scene had to be--after the intubations, the tubes, the meds, the paddles, CPR, if they had to do cut-downs, all of that--would have been shocking to any child.

Unfortunately, there were no actual adults in that group.

[daniel green]

The article was about autopsy and arriving at determination. snipped.

Except it wasn't. It was about the difference between homicide, malpractice, murder, etc.

[?WudScoobyDo]

From what IR, one of the Jackson family members spoke to a resident psychologist who said it was OK to take the children to see him.


Thats the way I understood it too. Apparently one of the never ending false rumors about MJ, included false reports of his death at some point in the past, and by seeing him they wouldnt have to wonder if it was another lie about their father.

[daniel green]

Geez -- MJ was 50 years old you know. snipped:

You cannot have seen Madonna move, and dance, night after night, year after year, and she is older than MJ. This was not about age, it was about health and drug use.

[retiredcop]

When did the TV guide channel become the authority on emergency medical procedures and protocol?

Some of the people interviewed were authorities. Like the fire captain on the scene. Sure beats TMZ's speculation and rumors.

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

Michael wanted to die, but did not want to kill himself, he wanted the Dr. to do it.

There was a doctor on HLN today with Mike Galanos who said, in his unpopular opinion, given MJ's substance abuse, Murray participated in "assisted suicide."

[daniel green]

From what IR, one of the Jackson family members spoke to a resident psychologist who said it was OK to take the children to see him.

Right. But of course they did.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Except it wasn't. It was about the difference between homicide, malpractice, murder, etc.

Right and how an autopsy provides the info necessary to choose between homicide, malpractice, murder, etc.

[Imperfect4]

From what IR, one of the Jackson family members spoke to a resident psychologist who said it was OK to take the children to see him.

Yeah, well maybe, maybe not. That might've been PR.

I can't say for sure because I don't know the children and each child is different, however, I'm pretty sure no 7 year-old in my care would be a part of that death scene. Not so sure about the older two.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I know. :sad: That was my thought, too. The scene had to be--after the intubations, the tubes, the meds, the paddles, CPR, if they had to do cut-downs, all of that--would have been shocking to any child.

Unfortunately, there were no actual adults in that group.


Of course if all those shocking devices had been in place at MJ's home, they wouldn't have had to experience the shock of seeing them on the dead body of their father.

[Imperfect4]

Because he was a human being with faults.

Have you any skeletons in your closet......? What happens when they are let out?

Since when is it acceptable to be hateful and disrespectful, just because you can be that way, since the person wont' read it..... what has our society come to.

imo

Cindylee has NEVER been either hateful or disrespectful about MJ on these threads.

You are confusing a discussion of the man with hate and disrespect.

[daniel green]

Yeah, well maybe, maybe not. That might've been PR.

I can't say for sure because I don't know the children and each child is different, however, I'm pretty sure no 7 year-old in my care would be a part of that death scene. Not so sure about the older two.

I don't know a resident psychologist/psychiatrist who would have thought it OK for such young children to go in to see that horrific scene. Those trauma rooms are shocking for even the strongest adult.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Yeah, well maybe, maybe not. That might've been PR.

I can't say for sure because I don't know the children and each child is different, however, I'm pretty sure no 7 year-old in my care would be a part of that death scene.

snipped


I'm assuming Dr. Murray isn't your personal physician, so I guess not.

[Imperfect4]

Thats the way I understood it too. Apparently one of the never ending false rumors about MJ, included false reports of his death at some point in the past, and by seeing him they wouldnt have to wonder if it was another lie about their father.

lol

lolololol

(I'll give you an "A" for creativity on that one, though. :thumbsup:)

[?WudScoobyDo]

I don't know a resident psychologist/psychiatrist who would have thought it OK for such young children to go in to see that horrific scene. Those trauma rooms are shocking for even the strongest adult.


Its unlikely that you know every psychologist/psychiatrist on the planet, so I'm fairly sure there are some, who you don't know, and who would think its ok.

imo...of course.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Geez -- MJ was 50 years old you know. Of course he wouldn't be able to move like he did 25 years ago. Considering he was dancing with 20 year olds -- he held his own. :rolleyes:

I don't know any dancer at 50 years old who moved like they did when they were 25 / 30? Not even Fred Astaire. :shrug:

Goodnight all

Goodnight! I thought he moved fairly well too, especially considering hours later he was dead.

[GentleBreeze]

Geez -- MJ was 50 years old you know. Of course he wouldn't be able to move like he did 25 years ago. Considering he was dancing with 20 year olds -- he held his own. :rolleyes:

I don't know any dancer at 50 years old who moved like they did when they were 25 / 30? Not even Fred Astaire. :shrug:

Goodnight all

And it has been stated that he did 11 or 12 song/dance routines that night. We have no idea the sequence of the short little snippet of one part of a song/dance.

I highly doubt they could have negotiated a 60 million dollar deal if this is all MJ did that night. I think they are saving the best for the big movie.:thumbup:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Its unlikely that you know every psychologist/psychiatrist on the planet, so I'm fairly sure there are some, who you don't know, and who would think its ok.

imo...of course.

It wasn't like he had been killed in some horrible automobile accident. I saw the photo of him laying on the ambulance gurney and he looked like he was sleeping. It certainly wouldn't be traumatic seeing their father and many family members including children are allowed in to see their family member if they should die at the hospital. :shrug:

imo

[Unperson1984]

I'm not sure it was a bad idea to allow the children to say goodbye to their father, it's the first step toward closure. This is certainly true for the two oldest.

The times I have seen a family member in the hospital after death the medical equipment has been removed and the body covered up to the chin, hopefully that is how the children saw their father.

[?WudScoobyDo]

The moonwalk was cool, although he was not the first to do it.

Never cared for his music. Or his lifestyle.

Thankfully in this country you will never be forced to listen to his music, or agree with his lifestyle, or the lifestyle of anyone different than yours.

[GentleBreeze]

You know, I think that maybe Dr. Murray thought he could ween Mj..or cure MJ;'s insomnia..at anyrate..I think when and if this goes to court, we will hear about something along this line..The unfortunate part for Dr. Murray he accepted his "Job of a Lifetime" lacking either the knowledge base..or expertise to do that..and took on a job totally unqualified to do. If nothing else, he sealed his own fate utilizing a drug that he had no business using in the enviornment he set up..I think he knew that..however getting away with it for so many weeks..he administered the final cocktail which killed MJ...it is well documented that combining other sedatives with Diprivan is contraindicated..however if necessary..ALL care must be taken...Not having cardiac monitors, intubation and airway maintenance equipment was for a physician negligant..willfully so..what happened to MJ should have been expected..and should have been treated appropriately...pancaking CPR doesnt quit cut it..

LMS

I think you and Dr. Vincent DiMaio sums it up rather well.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

Will it be possible for the doctor to argue his case as a medical mistake, a case of negligence, not homicide?
You just can’t argue this one. Here’s the problem question for him: what is the medical justification for giving him this drug? And that’s where they’ve got him, because there is no medical reason for the situation he was in. He wasn’t even doing an operative procedure and there was no anesthesiologist. Moreover, he’s an internist. Even if the drug were warranted, the conditions would be inappropriate. It’s not his specialty, its not internal medicine and there were no support personnel.

imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

It wasn't like he had been killed in some horrible automobile accident. I saw the photo of him laying on the ambulance gurney and he looked like he was sleeping. It certainly wouldn't be traumatic seeing their father and many family members including children are allowed in to see their family member if they should die at the hospital. :shrug:

imo


I agree and think it would be more traumatic for them to read some of the comments on this forum, than seeing their father for the last time.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree and think it would be more traumatic for them to read some of the comments on this forum, than seeing their father for the last time.

Oh my goodness, I really hope for their sake that never happens.:sad::crying:

imo

[legalmania]

Some of the people interviewed were authorities. Like the fire captain on the scene. Sure beats TMZ's speculation and rumors.

in my opinion

TMZ was the first to report MJ dead. Harvey Levin has some of the best information out there. His reporters are not only accurate but are usually first on the scene.

[retiredcop]

TMZ was the first to report MJ dead. Harvey Levin has some of the best information out there. His reporters are not only accurate but are usually first on the scene.

Well, they were wrong reporting about the EMTs and what was said. Much of their reporting the day Mr Jackson died was not accurate.

in my opinion

[sallemae]

You cannot have seen Madonna move, and dance, night after night, year after year, and she is older than MJ. This was not about age, it was about health and drug use.


States you, for someone that writes with such disdain of MJ, you sure do know an awful lot about his moves, his dance style, his words, his life....etc... I find it hard to believe much of what you type and give very little weight to your opinions. Has anyone ever told you it really isn't a good trait to share all that hate you have. IMO

And for the record, I thought he looked great for being 50 years old, and going out on stage and dancing.

[Rayosunshine]

The very picture of good parenting, isn't it?

Not to mention that the children saw their dad under the influence of narcotics, opiates, benzos, sedatives, muscle relaxers and even speed (provigil) during the time their father was not in bed being induced into a coma night after night after night, for a decade.

For petesakes, this is an allegedly healthy man (so says that wonderful 4 hr physical, donthaknow) with bed sores. :scared:

"Bedsores" - I just got back on the net. Where is that info (not that I am asking for a link, but am interested). Good Grief! Thanks.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Well, they were wrong reporting about the EMTs and what was said. Much of their reporting the day Mr Jackson died was not accurate.

in my opinion


Like what? Do you have any specific examples you could share with us?

[Rayosunshine]

----------------

That was me, Cindy. From the first time i seen it, i knew that wasnt MJ. There was also a write up in a London newspaper saying the same thing. Thats an imposter. imo

This is starting to sound like a conspiracy.

[sallemae]

I don't know a resident psychologist/psychiatrist who would have thought it OK for such young children to go in to see that horrific scene. Those trauma rooms are shocking for even the strongest adult.

You've got to be kidding me, you of all posters, you really think they took his children in right after he died? If you've haven't had a loved one pass in the hospital, then you wouldn't know, but they clean it up, and make the loved one as presentable as possible, believe me I know.


imo

[legalmania]

You've got to be kidding me, you of all posters, you really think they took his children in right after he died? If you've haven't had a loved one pass in the hospital, then you wouldn't know, but they clean it up, and make the loved one as presentable as possible, believe me I know.


imo

You're right sallemae when somebody dies their mouth stays open after they take their last breath. They wouldn't let his kids see him like that.

[legalmania]

Well, they were wrong reporting about the EMTs and what was said. Much of their reporting the day Mr Jackson died was not accurate.

in my opinion

Could you be any more vague?

[Rayosunshine]

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

As we already reported, paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the house but Dr. Murray insisted they transport the singer to the hospital.

We're told at the UCLA Medical Center -- after doctors gave up on resuscitation efforts because Jackson was clearly dead -- Dr. Murray continued CPR, which some of the UCLA docs found curious.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

Doctors who act the way Murray is described as acting are usually not up to snuff! There is a big plan under JHACO (I'm not sure if I have that right) to try and reduce this problem, since it has been shown to contribute to increasing anxiety in other caregivers, i.e., nurses, resulting in errors that occasionally are fatal. This is a big, big problem. I am proud to say that I have told more then one MD to "shut up and listen" and I will never back down.

[Rayosunshine]

I would not have a clue as to "most on here." I do know what it means, if that is of any help, or in any way on topic.

Stabilized would imply that the victim is in a condition that would make transport fairly safe. Believe it or not, if you condition is so bad, turning a corner will bottom out your blood pressure and could result in death. A victim's condition can be so delicate that caregivers hold their breath, literally, hoping that he/she will tolerate a move. been there, done that, don't want to go back. Waaay too stressful at my age.

[Rayosunshine]

Used this calculator and see if you think that 25 mg of Propofol/Dirprivan is a low dose or not, or whether it is a lethal dose. MJ weighed at last report approximately 110 lbs. or 50 Kg.

http://manuelsweb.com/propofol.htm#page_top

I saw that for sedation, that would calculate out to 8 - 30 mg/hr. If the half life is up to 3 days, I wonder how much residual he had that would "stack" on the subsequent doses. That is probably how the amount found became a lethal amount. Think he knew how to use a pump? I doubt it.

[retiredcop]

Like what? Do you have any specific examples you could share with us?

I'm sure you have seen me post this before. It is being talked about on the thread today. Watch the one hour show on TV Guide Network titled Michael Jackson: The Final Days. It will help you to understand. It is not one sided. Those interviewed will fill you in.:rolleyes:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

This article is totally wrong.

in my opinion

[Rayosunshine]

Man oh man, my cognitive problems kicking in, must be from my stressful week thus far. A bit of a MS fog settling in, I fear.

I meant to write TVGuide Channel. :blushing:

"MS fog"? Sorry, what's that? (I have at least 2 definitions)

[Rayosunshine]

Thanks for that Eagleeye. Even on page 3 of the affidavit it states MJ was given a lethal amount of propofol. Cannot be any clearer than that IMO. Hopefully they will at least make it a regulated drug. :shrug:

"Martinez told your affiant that he spoke to Dr. Sathyavagiswaran, the Chief Coroner for Los Angeles County, California who stated that according to the autopsy performed on Jackson the Coroner's Office determined, that at the time of his death, toxicology analysis showed that Michael Jackson had lethal levels of PROPOFOL in his blood."

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

Yeah, Murray calculated the dose alright - NOT. I don't think he has a clue as to how much of what he gave MJ. But, he did know which meds to list, cause he knew d..n well the tox screen would show all.

[retiredcop]

You're right sallemae when somebody dies their mouth stays open after they take their last breath. They wouldn't let his kids see him like that.

Are you saying his mouth couldn't be closed?

in my opinion

[Rayosunshine]

Isn't it? Perhaps he, Elvis and Tupac are hanging out? :laugh:

Think there is an afterlife? I hope so. I hope my son, a musician, is in the midst of all of the musical geniuses. My only wish.

[retiredcop]

Yeah, Murray calculated the dose alright - NOT. I don't think he has a clue as to how much of what he gave MJ. But, he did know which meds to list, cause he knew d..n well the tox screen would show all.

The autopsy and the tox report have not been released yet. The ruling of the coroner has not been released yet either. Just saying.

in my opinion

[legalmania]

Are you saying his mouth couldn't be closed?

in my opinion

I think they have to sew it shut, or reset the jaw. Not an expert but as far as I know it stays open.

[Cindylee]

Because he was a human being with faults.

Have you any skeletons in your closet......? What happens when they are let out?

Since when is it acceptable to be hateful and disrespectful, just because you can be that way, since the person wont' read it..... what has our society come to.

imo

I'll tell you what. If I ever do something, or if all of my horrible skeletons come out of the closet, and there is a Cindylee thread, then I would expect people on the discussion board to discuss those things. Skeletons and all.

[legalmania]

The autopsy and the tox report have not been released yet. The ruling of the coroner has not been released yet either. Just saying.

in my opinion

You have to figure also that he was use to taking this drug. So he could handle more than a person who has never tried it. So tolerance comes into the factor.

[Cindylee]

Cindylee has NEVER been either hateful or disrespectful about MJ on these threads.

You are confusing a discussion of the man with hate and disrespect.

Thank you. I have tried not to be. :smile:

[retiredcop]

I think they have to sew it shut, or reset the jaw. Not an expert but as far as I know it stays open.

I didn't know that. I do know morticians sew the mouths shut though.
Jermaine said on LKL the children and he went in to see Mr Jackson at the hospital.

in my opinion

[Rayosunshine]

Interesting article I found on how the autopsy was ruled a medical homicide.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx

Great link, Joanne. Like I have posted earlier, if the law doesn't get Murray, his peers will. Medical justification - Standards of Care and that isn't to be taken lightly! Loved his comment at the end, that he has never seen anything on this level, lol.

[Imperfect4]

Thank you. I have tried not to be. :smile:

I'm really tired of all the slams against anyone who dares to have an opinion about MJ that doesn't fall solidly on the hero-worship side of the ledger.

[Rayosunshine]

I think they have to sew it shut, or reset the jaw. Not an expert but as far as I know it stays open.

You are right, for a funeral, the lips must be sewn shut and all orifices packed. Makes me shudder. I want to go straight to the crematorium and bypass the mortician.

[sallemae]

You're right sallemae when somebody dies their mouth stays open after they take their last breath. They wouldn't let his kids see him like that.


Don't give up your day job for the comedian act.....:angry:

[legalmania]

Don't give up your day job for the comedian act.....:angry:

What are you talking about I wasn't trying to be funny?

[Cindylee]

I'm really tired of all the slams against anyone who dares to have an opinion about MJ that doesn't fall solidly on the hero-worship side of the ledger.

It sure does get old. I didn't respect the life MJ led during his life, I sure am not going to change my thinking because he died. I feel sorry for his family. I actually felt sorry for MJ., I think he had a lot of problems.

[Rayosunshine]

It sure does get old. I didn't respect the life MJ led during his life, I sure am not going to change my thinking because he died. I feel sorry for his family. I actually felt sorry for MJ., I think he had a lot of problems.

It is such a sad situation.

[Cindylee]

It is such a sad situation.

It is very sad, and I think it will get a lot worse.

[Cindylee]

If Doctor Klein did it for him...why were there always vials found in his bedroom?...eyeroll....;)Maybe he got stuff from Dr. Kline for home use and he went to the office. ???

[legalmania]

If Doctor Klein did it for him...why were there always vials found in his bedroom?...eyeroll....;)

That leaves a lot more questions than answers. Like how long ago did he see DR.Klein? What was in the vials? It could have been vitamin b's shots or flu shots or something for his many aliments. Who knows?

[?WudScoobyDo]

If Doctor Klein did it for him...why were there always vials found in his bedroom?...eyeroll....;)


Because Dr. Murray had administered it the morning of MJ's death, according to Dr Murray and memorialized in the sworn statement of facts.

[Cindylee]

And it will be alright for anyone to trash your Mom, siblings and children on the hypothetical Cindylee thread that you mention in your post?

I have not seen anyone trash those kids. Discuss the kids, trash no. Never.

And I have seen the Jackson's criticized, not trashed. Except for Joe maybe.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I have not seen anyone trash those kids. Discuss the kids, trash no. Never.

How about his Mother, have you seen that?

[Cindylee]

How about his Mother, have you seen that? I edited my last post. But, I will say again, trashed no....criticized yes. And I have seen her be able to get to court, and worry about concerts, but she hasn't buried her son. So, yes I am critical about that.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I'm sure you have seen me post this before. It is being talked about on the thread today. Watch the one hour show on TV Guide Network titled Michael Jackson: The Final Days. It will help you to understand. It is not one sided. Those interviewed will fill you in.:rolleyes:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

This article is totally wrong.

in my opinion


Its okay. You were so confident that TMZ had misreported the events of June 25th, 2009, that I thought you might have a specific story that supported your opinion. I am cool with the Statement of Probable Cause that was sworn to under penalty of perjury, that I don't think its necessary to watch the tv guide channel for further info. But thank you for the suggestion.

[Cindylee]

No, I have nothing that would even come close to the skeleton's in J's closet....Matter of fact, there is nothing in my past I wouldn't share.

I'm not saying I never made mistakes, I have. Plenty of them. BUT I LEARNED from them and NEVER repeated them. I would share mine in hopes others wouldn't make the same mistakes.

Too bad, some people will not even allow MJ to have made mistakes...let alone encourage others to learn by looking at his. MJ's history should be a cautionary one. Not ridiculous excuses for the inexcusable.

I would suggest if negitive comments about the way MJ lived his life offends you so much...please put me on ignore................

Great post.

[Cindylee]

I thought since there was to be an autopsy...he was intubated and that would stay in place.

I thought I had read somewhere, here?, that they left all of the tubes and IV's in for the coroner could see what was done. I sure could be wrong about that though.

[Unperson1984]

Senator Kennedy died.

[legalmania]

I thought since there was to be an autopsy...he was intubated and that would stay in place.

As far as I understood he was intubated, but you think they would remove it for the children. That would still leave his mouth open. I believe they waited until the ME made him look presentable to the children, before they let them see him.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Senator Kennedy died.

Thats a shame. G** bless him for his lifelong dedication and service to this country.

[Unperson1984]

Thats a shame. G** bless him for his lifelong dedication and service to this country.

Amen to that. :sad:

[?WudScoobyDo]

I was talking specifically about the two times his bedroom was searched. BOTH times Demerol and other injectable narcotics were found in his bedroom...along with syringes. He didn't have Dr. Murray then.

IMO It's my opinion he was quite comfortable self injecting narcotics.

I thought the discussion had to do with events that were somewhat remotely close to the date of his death. I don't recall any drug charges resulting from whatever searches you refer to, so I'm guessing it wasn't a matter of concern to the people conducting the search.

[?WudScoobyDo]

It establishes that he was indeed a drug addict....a long term, chronic drug abuser. It's relevant to the discussion.

Nope, he was never charged. I don't see how it would have made a bit of difference if he was. I would NEVER believe he would have been convicted...nor do I believe he would have ever entered treatment willingly. Kinda a moot point imo


Ironic that the drugs found might have made for the only legitimate charges filed and might have brought awareness to these unethical doctors. Its disheartening when the improper motives of elected officials prevent justice from being served or an opportunity to prevent unnecessary deaths that would continue to occur for years to come.

imo...of course.

[legalmania]

I really doubt they seen him in the hospital at all....not all tubed up....well..maybe if they covered him up very well and just left the intubation tube in.

My dad was 44 when he died of cancer, but he was in a drug induced coma he only had a IV in his arm. My sister said he looked like he was sleeping but I didn't go in. I just heard the machine that was enough for me.

[Cindylee]

www.TMZ.com
Law Enforcement Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray

Posted Aug 26th 2009 2:15AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner and the LAPD are not buying Dr. Conrad Murray's story that he gave Michael Jackson a relatively low dosage of Propofol before he died.

Sources say the L.A. County Coroner has determined Michael Jackson died from a lethal level of Propofol. There were "traces" of other drugs in Jackson's system, but nothing that would have killed him.

According to the search warrant affidavit, during Dr. Murray's interview with LAPD detectives two days after Jackson died, he said he gave Jackson 25 milligrams of Propofol shortly before the singer stopped breathing. Dr. Murray also said he had been giving Jackson 50 milligrams of Propofol for the prior six weeks so Jackson could sleep, but he felt the singer may have been forming an addiction so he cut back.

Here's the reality. It takes approximately 400 milligrams of Propofol for someone of Jackson's body size to sleep 8 hours -- that's 16 times the amount Dr. Murray says he gave Jackson the day he died.

Our law enforcement sources simply do not believe that 25 milligrams would have in any way compromised Michael Jackson, especially since he had developed a tolerance to a much higher level.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PGeqam4i

[Cindylee]

Jackson Time of Death a Mystery

Posted Aug 26th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner cannot pinpoint the time of Michael Jackson's death ... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.

Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.

Sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray's account. They say when Dr. Murray was interviewed by them two days after Jackson died -- his lawyer by his side -- the doctor's account seemed "scripted."

So when did Jackson really die? Rigor mortis typically doesn't set in for at least 3 hours, and often longer. If rigor mortis has not set in, the only way to approximate time of death is by body temperature. Once a person dies, their temperature eventually rises or falls to the temperature of the environment. For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.

Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time. But we're told paramedics did not get a read on his body temp because they were busy performing CPR.

Bottom line -- it's possible Jackson could have been dead much longer than Dr. Murray said. There's no scientific way of knowing.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PGfUQ46o

[Poochie Pie]

I once had a dear friend. Her name was Pam. She was a heroin addict, and so was her husband. One night they bought some heroin and it turned out to be rat poison instead of heroin. Both her and her husband died within minutes of the injections. I never thought it was her fault, and neither did the police. I'm not going to argue it, just thought I would share it, as I have thought of it many times over the years. Oh...!! I am so sorry Scooby... How very tragic... I can tell you still carry the hurt in your Heart... :sad:

Poochie

[Cindylee]

Wow TMZ has been busy tonight.

Jackson Time of Death a Mystery

Posted Aug 26th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner cannot pinpoint the time of Michael Jackson's death ... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.

Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.

Sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray's account. They say when Dr. Murray was interviewed by them two days after Jackson died -- his lawyer by his side -- the doctor's account seemed "scripted."

So when did Jackson really die? Rigor mortis typically doesn't set in for at least 3 hours, and often longer. If rigor mortis has not set in, the only way to approximate time of death is by body temperature. Once a person dies, their temperature eventually rises or falls to the temperature of the environment. For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.

Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time. But we're told paramedics did not get a read on his body temp because they were busy performing CPR.

Bottom line -- it's possible Jackson could have been dead much longer than Dr. Murray said. There's no scientific way of knowing.

See Also

* Dr. Conrad Murray a Liar, Dr. Claims
* Jackson Spent Last Hours in Dr. Murray's Bed

Filed under: Michael Jackson
Comments [10]
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Jackson Nurse: I Did Not Give Michael Propofol

Posted Aug 26th 2009 1:45AM by TMZ Staff

One of Michael Jackson's nurses is calling BS on Dr. Conrad Murray -- after a search warrant affidavit showed Murray told law enforcement he believed the nurse gave Michael a Propofol "cocktail."



Cherilyn Lee told us she never gave Michael Propofol or Diprivan. Lee said she gives people "nutritional cocktails" and Dr. Murray must have jumped to conclusions.

And this is interesting ... Lee also said she saw Michael back in April, and there were "no injection marks" on his body. Our law enforcement sources say Jackson was riddled with injection sites at the time of his death.

Lee said she did inject Michael with a "nutritional IV" of "basically vitamin C." She says, "Mr. Jackson had very small veins."
See Also

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0PGg21k2S

[Poochie Pie]

My dad was 44 when he died of cancer, but he was in a drug induced coma he only had a IV in his arm. My sister said he looked like he was sleeping but I didn't go in. I just heard the machine that was enough for me. My sincere sympathies, Legal... Been there.. done that.. Time moves on, but the experience never leaves your Heart or mind...

Poochie

[legalmania]

My sincere sympathies, Legal... Been there.. done that.. Time moves on, but the experience never leaves your Heart or mind...

Poochie

Thank you Poochie your kind words help more than you know.

[legalmania]

Well it's late and time for me to leave the board with a great song from a great man

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/pyt_pretty_young_thing)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[?WudScoobyDo]

Oh...!! I am so sorry Scooby... How very tragic... I can tell you still carry the hurt in your Heart... :sad:

Poochie

Thank you Poochie.

[?WudScoobyDo]

I have no doubt that MJ's body was rittled with injection marks and for years. Did she examine the patient from head to toe, document her finding at the time and have timely schetchs of the sites and any othe abnormality on paper. I am as proud of nurses as anyone can be but nurses are not Docs, who have far more education, training and practice of the Art of Medicine. I would have thought that the "nutritional" would be the vitamin Bs.
I must agree that as none of the reports have been released or commented upon by the Coroner, those old faithful anonymous sources ain't worth a hill of beans. We need confirmation from the MAN and an arresst of Dr Murray is he is the guy.


One has to wonder how a man who supposedly had needle marks all over his body for years, passed a 4 hour physical at the demand of AEG and its insurer. Is it a case of insurance fraud, or something else? What is their culpability?

The nutrition nurse claims Michael's body was not riddled with injection sites, and has nothing to gain by lying, but a lot to lose by lying in a homicide investigation. She is not the only person who has said there were no injection marks on his body at a time shortly before his death.

It has been my experience that nurses have a great deal more contact with a patient than the doctor, at least in a hospital setting. And I think the nurses are a lot more competent than doctors in a lot of cases, including this one. Dr. Murray and all of his education, experience and training in the art of medicine, killed his only patient. He is the person motivated by greed and at the center of a homicide investigation, not the nutritional nurse who had the cajones to say no.

No doubt it should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

imo...of course.

[sallemae]

You're right sallemae when somebody dies their mouth stays open after they take their last breath. They wouldn't let his kids see him like that.


Not my mother's or my brothers, or my fathers.....guess the nurses know something you do not.

[sallemae]

I think they have to sew it shut, or reset the jaw. Not an expert but as far as I know it stays open.


You must not have had a loved one that passed away in the hospital. None of that was done to my family members. no sewing it shut, no resetting the jaw. The nurse even asked for my fathers false teeth to put in his mouth. His mouth was shut and he looked as if he was sleeping and the Dad we always knew.

[sallemae]

I'm really tired of all the slams against anyone who dares to have an opinion about MJ that doesn't fall solidly on the hero-worship side of the ledger.


And the slams against posters that just show some respect is getting very middle school like.... you know like the term you just used --hero-worship.

He sure wasn't my hero, but his faults are not any different than many others, and his music was great. imo

[sallemae]

No, I have nothing that would even come close to the skeleton's in J's closet....Matter of fact, there is nothing in my past I wouldn't share.

I'm not saying I never made mistakes, I have. Plenty of them. BUT I LEARNED from them and NEVER repeated them. I would share mine in hopes others wouldn't make the same mistakes.

Too bad, some people will not even allow MJ to have made mistakes...let alone encourage others to learn by looking at his. MJ's history should be a cautionary one. Not ridiculous excuses for the inexcusable.

I would suggest if negitive comments about the way MJ lived his life offends you so much...please put me on ignore................

This is a good post, makes sense, very thoughtful, do you always post this way, if so, why would I put you on ignore?

[mrsmcgoo]

One has to wonder how a man who supposedly had needle marks all over his body for years, passed a 4 hour physical at the demand of AEG and its insurer. Is it a case of insurance fraud, or something else? What is their culpability?

The nutrition nurse claims Michael's body was not riddled with injection sites, and has nothing to gain by lying, but a lot to lose by lying in a homicide investigation. She is not the only person who has said there were no injection marks on his body at a time shortly before his death.

It has been my experience that nurses have a great deal more contact with a patient than the doctor, at least in a hospital setting. And I think the nurses are a lot more competent than doctors in a lot of cases, including this one. Dr. Murray and all of his education, experience and training in the art of medicine, killed his only patient. He is the person motivated by greed and at the center of a homicide investigation, not the nutritional nurse who had the cajones to say no.

No doubt it should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

imo...of course.

I thought it was reported that the examine was not recognized by the insurer and another examine was to be performed upon MJ's arrival in London? :confused:

(Hopefully I am not speaking out of turn on this, things change quickly at times! )

JMO

[RootBeer]

There was a doctor on HLN today with Mike Galanos who said, in his unpopular opinion, given MJ's substance abuse, Murray participated in "assisted suicide."

I know my beliefs are unpopular also, but I think MJ hired Dr. Murray to assist in his death, without Dr. Murray knowing that was MJ's goal.