The Death Book for Veterans

[Brat2002]

After the Bush administration took a look at the death book, the VA suspended it’s use. Obama has now reinstated it. It asks questions about whether the patient is able to provide for their family or whether they are a burden and wants to know how they feel about that. It seems designed to make them feel worthless. No encouragement in this book and I think a disabled person reading it might get the message that their life is meaningless because it puts things in the context of what they contribute and how miserable their world is, if they are confined to a wheelchair or nursing home, etc. No silver lining here, folks. No offering hope that a person has something to offer despite their disabilities.

No faith groups or disability rights advocates were involved in the updating of this book in 2007 and 2008. It was the Hemlock Society.

Look at the guy who authored the book. No surprise that he is for assisted suicide and doesn’t approved of spending money to treat the chronically ill or disabled. His end of life workbook clearly sends the message that they have a duty to die. I want to know why some believe that a government run healthcare plan would offer any more hope to our disabled and elderly.

IMO

Who is the primary author of this workbook? Dr. Robert Pearlman, chief of ethics evaluation for the center, a man who in 1996 advocated for physician-assisted suicide in Vacco v. Quill before the U.S. Supreme Court and is known for his support of health-care rationing. The Death Book for Veterans
Ex-soldiers don't need to be told they're a burden to society.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358590107981718.html

[Lyndawitha"Y]

After the Bush administration took a look at the death book, the VA suspended it’s use. Obama has now reinstated it. It asks questions about whether the patient is able to provide for their family or whether they are a burden and wants to know how they feel about that. It seems designed to make them feel worthless. No encouragement in this book and I think a disabled person reading it might get the message that their life is meaningless because it puts things in the context of what they contribute and how miserable their world is, if they are confined to a wheelchair or nursing home, etc. No silver lining here, folks. No offering hope that a person has something to offer despite their disabilities.

No faith groups or disability rights advocates were involved in the updating of this book in 2007 and 2008. It was the Hemlock Society.

Look at the guy who authored the book. No surprise that he is for assisted suicide and doesn’t approved of spending money to treat the chronically ill or disabled. His end of life workbook clearly sends the message that they have a duty to die. I want to know why some believe that a government run healthcare plan would offer any more hope to our disabled and elderly.

IMO

The Death Book for Veterans
Ex-soldiers don't need to be told they're a burden to society.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358590107981718.html

Goodness Brat..I am confused..why would Obama reinstate this list if he didnt want to be transparant?..It's obvious Bush/administration tried to hide this..but as an ex-wife of a Vietnam veteran (we all know how they were treated by US citizens)..I have a huge problem with denying adequate assistance to any Veteran..especially vets from a war a country sends troops to...

Sorry, but I cant grasp just at what level your thread is addressing..Is it the HC issue?, or the treatment of War Vets??

TYIA
LMS

[Barbara2]

There is a link here with video:

http://www.vawatchdog.org/09/nf09/nfaug09/nf082409-1.htm

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I would recommend that you watch today's "FOX News Sunday." Tammy Duckworth was totally BUSTED.

Sorry..I have absolutely no idea who Tammy is what has been busted...??

geesh..I only asked why and what the thread was about?..Why do so many wish to accuse..blame and bash!!

Sorry I even asked..Guess my lifetime of dealing with a dysfunctional war vet from one of your wars..doesnt give me the right to even wonder..

Sorry to have even stepped into this quadmire of nastiness!!

So much ANGST!!

LMS:ohmy:

[Brat2002]

Goodness Brat..I am confused..why would Obama reinstate this list if he didnt want to be transparant?..It's obvious Bush/administration tried to hide this..but as an ex-wife of a Vietnam veteran (we all know how they were treated by US citizens)..I have a huge problem with denying adequate assistance to any Veteran..especially vets from a war a country sends troops to...

Sorry, but I cant grasp just at what level your thread is addressing..Is it the HC issue?, or the treatment of War Vets??

TYIA
LMS

Both issues are being addressed really. First, Bush wanted this thrown out because this is not the way to address our veterans. He didn't hide it, just basically said stop using it. Get rid of the death book!!! I don't find Obama to be transparent and I would like to hear his explanation for bringing this book back and having our veterans be forced to fill out that depressing questionaire.

The book seems to encourage them to give up and refuse treatment. In other words, take the pain killers and die. They shouldn't be presented with such doom and gloom after all they've been through already. Why would Obama decide to bring the book back into use? The vets shouldn't have to read this stuff as it's written. And my point is, if this is how Obama feels the veterans should be treated, then it's reasonable to assume that the death panels for all our elderly and disabled are quite true. It's about the mindset of those who will make decisions in the long run. I fear those who seem to think that they can place a monetary value on any of our lives. To confront a disabled person and ask them to think about whether their life is worth living because they are such a burden on their family certainly is not the way to help a person who may already be suffering from depression. I see this book as being designed to prompt them to make a decision that will lessen the burden on their family and society by deciding that maybe they aren't worth the treatment they get. If they get to that point, they will likely not wish to continue with lifesaving treatment, such as drugs or dialysis. Is this what we want for any of our citizens?

The book is crude and any question as to a patient's mental health should be addressed by a physician. For heaven's sake, the book was written by a guy who supports assisted suicide. Do you think it's possible that he might write a book that will maybe convince others to see things his way? I believe that's exactly what he did and I find it downright cruel to present anybody with that book.

IMO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

There is a link here with video:

http://www.vawatchdog.org/09/nf09/nfaug09/nf082409-1.htm

TY Barbara..at least I was able to read up on all the contaversy..Fox News is not my favorite.nor a source I would make any descisions..I am open to all input..so will try to catch it tonight..

TY
LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Both issues are being addressed really. First, Bush wanted this thrown out because this is not the way to address our veterans. He didn't hide it, just basically said stop using it. Get rid of the death book!!! I don't find Obama to be transparent and I would like to hear his explanation for bringing this book back and having our veterans be forced to fill out that depressing questionaire.

The book seems to encourage them to give up and refuse treatment. In other words, take the pain killers and die. They shouldn't be presented with such doom and gloom after all they've been through already. Why would Obama decide to bring the book back into use? The vets shouldn't have to read this stuff as it's written. And my point is, if this is how Obama feels the veterans should be treated, then it's reasonable to assume that the death panels for all our elderly and disabled are quite true. It's about the mindset of those who will make decisions in the long run. I fear those who seem to think that they can place a monetary value on any of our lives. To confront a disabled person and ask them to think about whether their life is worth living because they are such a burden on their family certainly is not the way to help a person who may already be suffering from depression. I see this book as being designed to prompt them to make a decision that will lessen the burden on their family and society by deciding that maybe they aren't worth the treatment they get. If they get to that point, they will likely not wish to continue with lifesaving treatment, such as drugs or dialysis. Is this what we want for any of our citizens?

The book is crude and any question as to a patient's mental health should be addressed by a physician. For heaven's sake, the book was written by a guy who supports assisted suicide. Do you think it's possible that he might write a book that will maybe convince others to see things his way? I believe that's exactly what he did and I find it downright cruel to present anybody with that book.

IMO

TY Brat.I appreciate your respectful response..Man..I am getting really disallusionaled by so much angst...Man..I live less than 60 miles from your border..yet get treated sometimes like someone who has NO RIGHTS to question or have an opinion..My whole adult life was directly affected by your Government..indirectly having the father of my kids an outcast Vietnam War Vet..agent orange ..etc.....So..I do have an interest in a Country that affects those around me..:crying:

Again..TY for answering my question.........

LMS

[bkwits]

Sorry..I have absolutely no idea who Tammy is what has been busted...??

geesh..I only asked why and what the thread was about?..Why do so many wish to accuse..blame and bash!!

Sorry I even asked..Guess my lifetime of dealing with a dysfunctional war vet from one of your wars..doesnt give me the right to even wonder..

Sorry to have even stepped into this quadmire of nastiness!!

So much ANGST!!

LMS:ohmy:

Hi Lynda,

Tammy Duckworth is a well-known in Illinois as a spokesperson for the VA. She ran for Congress to replace Henry Hyde and lost by just a handful of votes. She now has a position with National VA as an Asst. Secy of Something. She was badly wounded in Viet Nam and lost both her legs. I think she lost the use of one arm as well. Even if one disagrees with her, I think it is totally mean and disrepectful to speak of a veteran who gave so much and is still trying to serve her country. For shame.

I want to tell how much I appreciate your husband's sacrifice for we American citizens. Both he and your family have given much.

Thank you for all you have given.:wub:

[orangetaffy]

You can read it here...

http://www.ethics.va.gov/YLYC/YLYC_First_edition_20001001.pdf

IMO, in almost all of the scenario's presented to the vets, they end in the person choosing to end their life. Even when they mention "perhaps your spiritual beliefs would lead you against such things", they go on to say...but do they really?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Hi Lynda,

Tammy Duckworth is a well-known in Illinois as a spokesperson for the VA. She ran for Congress to replace Henry Hyde and lost by just a handful of votes. She now has a position with National VA as an Asst. Secy of Something. She was badly wounded in Viet Nam and lost both her legs. I think she lost the use of one arm as well. Even if one disagrees with her, I think it is totally mean and disrepectful to speak of a veteran who gave so much and is still trying to serve her country. For shame.

I want to tell how much I appreciate your husband's sacrifice for we American citizens. Both he and your family have given much.

Thank you for all you have given.:wub:

Ohhh..TY..I didnt even know who was being "Busted"...as for myself..I am a survivor of sorts.....So sad what war does to people!!....however history will always be the same..war effects far more than the warrior...It's a legacy no one should have to endure..but it is a fact of life..

I am glad this Duckworth person lacking in limbs is at least trying to do something..but as usual ..she will be found lacking by many..and she knows nothing about what she speaks...

BTW..I have found those who criticize havent walked in the shoes of those who have sacrificed..but who cares..Its only politics.right?

LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Lynda, if you don't trust Fox News, you can read it at the Independent Examiner. I think they actually had it before Fox:



http://www.examiner.com/x-9100-Boston-Conservative-Independent-Examiner~y2009m8d23-The-VHA-is-backpedaling-and-lying-about-the-Veterans-Death-Book-claims

TY...I have read it..but I have to ask a queston...when is it appropriate to ask a person who has life threatening issue what they want?..I have only dealt with acute Life ending issues with patients and family members..so have a skewed view on that..

Anyway..TY for taking the time to respond..

LMS

[PoppySeeds]

Sorry..I have absolutely no idea who Tammy is what has been busted...??

geesh..I only asked why and what the thread was about?..Why do so many wish to accuse..blame and bash!!

Sorry I even asked..Guess my lifetime of dealing with a dysfunctional war vet from one of your wars..doesnt give me the right to even wonder..

Sorry to have even stepped into this quadmire of nastiness!!

So much ANGST!!

LMS:ohmy:

Look at it from this point of view: Would you have prefered that your children's father be offered this book to save YOU from a "lifetime of dealing with a dysfunctional war vet"?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

You are very welcome, Lynda.

My answer would be very traditional, and some might say, old-fashioned. I think life-ending issues should be reserved for ministers or priests or rabbis, etc. It should be entered into with great spiritual caution. To take one's own life, to some, is like playing God.

Obama thinks he is God's partner in that regard. I disagree. :angry:

I hate to inform you if you only share your wishes with religious persons in your life..it doesnt make a hill of difference in a life threatening situation...Family and medical entities have to be councilled..and written conscents have to be executed..in order for any medical team to withdraw interventions....Sad but true...and a HC provider it has over my career hurt me to abuse a body because nothing legally was put in place...Thats why I asked the question...people have to discuss..and stipulate legally what they want otherwise..extreme things do happen not to mention the costs (irrelevent to some)...

BTW..I have had that discussion with my own kids..much to their denials..but at least they know what my wishes are....as I went thru all that with my mom..so understand the medical legal issues afoot..

Again Elaina..I appreciate to kind tone of your postings!!

LMS:wub:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Look at it from this point of view: Would you have prefered that your children's father be offered this book to save YOU from a "lifetime of dealing with a dysfunctional war vet"?

Hummmm, rather crass..but never mind..kinda goes with the territory on this site.. Sure glad you have an understnading of my particular question????????????

LMS

[PoppySeeds]

Hummmm, rather crass..but never mind..kinda goes with the territory on this site.. Sure glad you have an understnading of my particular question????????????

LMS

It wasn't crass. It was a suggestion that if you couldn't wrap your mind around WHY this was wrong, make it a personal issue. You are the one that was complaining you had a lifetime dealing with at "dysfunctional war vet", not me.
I have a grandfather and an uncle who are both "dysfunctional war vets" from korea & Vietnam (grandfather both, uncle vietnam), and I would be totally disgusted if either were offered this book by our government.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

It wasn't crass. It was a suggestion that if you couldn't wrap your mind around WHY this was wrong, make it a personal issue. You are the one that was complaining you had a lifetime dealing with at "dysfunctional war vet", not me.
I have a grandfather and an uncle who are both "dysfunctional war vets" from korea & Vietnam (grandfather both, uncle vietnam), and I would be totally disgusted if either were offered this book by our government.

And that was my question in the beginning...WTH is this book all about????..So kindly stop addressing my question as objectionable..I will be trying to find out what THIS BOOK is all about..not wishing to listen to spins as to what this BOOK IS ABOUT

TY
LMS

[PoppySeeds]

And that was my question in the beginning...WTH is this book all about????..So kindly stop addressing my question as objectionable..I will be trying to find out what THIS BOOK is all about..not wishing to listen to spins as to what this BOOK IS ABOUT

TY
LMS

Read the news storied posted, watch the videos.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358590107981718.html

Here, I've posted ONE MORE.

Here is the book it's self in PDF version. It is not the kind of booklet that should be given to wounded vets who are quite probably suffering from PTSD also.

http://www1.va.gov/pugetsound/docs/ylyc.pdf

[bkwits]

Ohhh..TY..I didnt even know who was being "Busted"...as for myself..I am a survivor of sorts.....So sad what war does to people!!....however history will always be the same..war effects far more than the warrior...It's a legacy no one should have to endure..but it is a fact of life..

I am glad this Duckworth person lacking in limbs is at least trying to do something..but as usual ..she will be found lacking by many..and she knows nothing about what she speaks...

BTW..I have found those who criticize havent walked in the shoes of those who have sacrificed..but who cares..Its only politics.right?

LMS

Well, Lynda, it is not just politics for me, or for you, it is life. I stood by my husband's hsopital bed while the doctors tortured him instead of letting him die in peace. He and I did everything that is recommended to prevent that. He had a living will, which I brought to the hospital. Our GP doc talked to him on Thanksgiving Day and told him there was no hope. Other docs said the same. We both knew that he only had days to live. He was conscious but so weak in the end, he just submitted to their torture. What a way to die. :crying:

BTW, he was also a veteran. Seven years in the Air Force.
My best to Griffey. :smile:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Read the news storied posted, watch the videos.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358590107981718.html

Here, I've posted ONE MORE.

Here is the book it's self in PDF version. It is not the kind of booklet that should be given to wounded vets who are quite probably suffering from PTSD also.

http://www1.va.gov/pugetsound/docs/ylyc.pdf

So..far all I am reading is spins by RW agenda driven peeps...You have to remember this all started in 2007.. 2 years before Obama even took office...One would have to understand the Context of such gargon..and just where it applys.. have already observed how vets in the past have been treated...So will await the actual fine print...to make my own opinions....It is obvious you have yours..so no use in discussing..

LMS

[flareon]

After the Bush administration took a look at the death book, the VA suspended it’s use. Obama has now reinstated it. It asks questions about whether the patient is able to provide for their family or whether they are a burden and wants to know how they feel about that. It seems designed to make them feel worthless. No encouragement in this book and I think a disabled person reading it might get the message that their life is meaningless because it puts things in the context of what they contribute and how miserable their world is, if they are confined to a wheelchair or nursing home, etc. No silver lining here, folks. No offering hope that a person has something to offer despite their disabilities.

No faith groups or disability rights advocates were involved in the updating of this book in 2007 and 2008. It was the Hemlock Society.

Look at the guy who authored the book. No surprise that he is for assisted suicide and doesn’t approved of spending money to treat the chronically ill or disabled. His end of life workbook clearly sends the message that they have a duty to die. I want to know why some believe that a government run healthcare plan would offer any more hope to our disabled and elderly.

IMO

The Death Book for Veterans
Ex-soldiers don't need to be told they're a burden to society.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358590107981718.html

Good post.

You're exactly right. I'm sure some of the veterans have already thought about these issues and discussed with the appropriate people.

These are adults. It is the same as the people at the end years. If they want further counseling or options presented to them, they know how to get them. This constant interference and bull in a china shop approach by the government is getting very old.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Well, Lynda, it is not just politics for me, or for you, it is life. I stood by my husband's hsopital bed while the doctors tortured him instead of letting him die in peace. He and I did everything that is recommended to prevent that. He had a living will, which I brought to the hospital. Our GP doc talked to him on Thanksgiving Day and told him there was no hope. Other docs said the same. We both knew that he only had days to live. He was conscious but so weak in the end, he just submitted to their torture. What a way to die. :crying:

BTW, he was also a veteran. Seven years in the Air Force.
My best to Griffey. :smile:
TY..Griff sends his best too...and TY for making my day..I just knew there were some out there that understand my position...:wub:

My condolenses for your loss!!

LMS

[PoppySeeds]

So..far all I am reading is spins by RW agenda driven peeps...You have to remember this all started in 2007.. 2 years before Obama even took office...One would have to understand the Context of such gargon..and just where it applys.. have already observed how vets in the past have been treated...So will await the actual fine print...to make my own opinions....It is obvious you have yours..so no use in discussing..

LMS


Bush DISCONTINUED it's use when it was decided by the military it needed to be revised. Most people don't even know of this books existence, so it comes as no suprise to me that Bush didn't know about it until the revision was proposed. And then it was DISCONTINUED. Obama has brought it BACK.

[flareon]

It wasn't crass. It was a suggestion that if you couldn't wrap your mind around WHY this was wrong, make it a personal issue. You are the one that was complaining you had a lifetime dealing with at "dysfunctional war vet", not me.
I have a grandfather and an uncle who are both "dysfunctional war vets" from korea & Vietnam (grandfather both, uncle vietnam), and I would be totally disgusted if either were offered this book by our government.

As I think most people would. There is absolutely no reason to have this presented to anyone outside of someone who has training in these matters.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

As I think most people would. There is absolutely no reason to have this presented to anyone outside of someone who has training in these matters.

Exactly..flareon..no one but family, physicians, clericals and lawyers need to make any of these decisions and of course the individual....but on the other hand there needs to have a position to take to your physician, lawyers..NO? Doesnt there have to be some sort of provision or law inplace to make your requests valid??..I may be wrong on that one..I only know from my own experiences...loads of papers had to be signed, witnessed and filed APPROPRIATELY or nothing you signed and declared was legally binding...HC workers have to follow the laws...and right now..those laws can be very restrictive...which can lead to much heartache..and abuse of a dying/dead person..We have many terms up here.."Dying With Dignity".."DNR"S do not reuscutate.."CCC" Concervative Compassionate Care.."and they mean so many different things to so many different people..

The only thing I could ever recommend to those with family members who wish to die with dignity....especially in endstage sufferings..Do not call 911//as all EMT's are obligued to resuscitate..unless they have a physician who can call it off...
LMS

[PoppySeeds]

The pamphlet may be inappropriately worded. I have not seen the book. But it is clear Towey is more concerned with inflicting political damage on his President than he is with Veterans.

MO


>snipped for space< (Sorry, you made a great point.)

http://www1.va.gov/pugetsound/docs/ylyc.pdf

It is worded very badly in many area. It is obvious it was written by someone who supports assisted deaths.
I don't think that returning from a war zone injured would be the time to issue this booklet to anyone in the military.
These decissions should be made by a healthy person with their doctor and family.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

>snipped for space< (Sorry, you made a great point.)

http://www1.va.gov/pugetsound/docs/ylyc.pdf

It is worded very badly in many area. It is obvious it was written by someone who supports assisted deaths.
I don't think that returning from a war zone injured would be the time to issue this booklet to anyone in the military.
These decissions should be made by a healthy person with their doctor and family.

My bolding..last I heard..Assisted deaths or assisted suicides are against the law..Are you really entertaining this should be legal..or even entertained..or even assumed by your link??? You are boggling my mind in your extreme views??

LMS

[orangetaffy]

My bolding..last I heard..Assisted deaths or assisted suicides are against the law..Are you really entertaining this should be legal..or even entertained..or even assumed by your link??? You are boggling my mind in your extreme views??

LMS

I'm not sure that is correct. IIRC 2 or 3 states have legal assisted suicide/euthanasia.

[PoppySeeds]

My bolding..last I heard..Assisted deaths or assisted suicides are against the law..Are you really entertaining this should be legal..or even entertained..or even assumed by your link??? You are boggling my mind in your extreme views??

LMS


The author of the booklet, Dr Robert Pearlman, supports euthanasia. I am in NO WAY supporting that. Where did you twist that thought from?


Stand by for the link.

http://a12iggymom.vox.com/library/post/the-death-book-for-veterns.html

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I'm not sure that is correct. IIRC 2 or 3 states have legal assisted suicide/euthanasia.

Sooooooo, given 2-3 states out of 50 say okay..and allow assisted suicide..however agenda's of RWer's wish to assert the Federal Government wishes to make it an option or mandetory?..I dont think that for one minute...I dont believe anyone..dont care how badly something was worded..is claiming to forcing such a thing ...Its just plain silly to suggest it Federal Government..Obama would even agree to that ..

LMS

[orangetaffy]

I believe that it's legal in Oregon.
IMO

And Washington, as of March 2009, IIRC.

Also, 3 states have abolished the common law of crimes and do not have statutes criminalizing assisted suicide -- North Carolina, Utah and Wyoming

In Ohio, that state's supreme court ruled in October 1996 that assisted suicide is not a crime.

[orangetaffy]

Sooooooo, given 2-3 states out of 50 say okay..and allow assisted suicide..however agenda's of RWer's wish to assert the Federal Government wishes to make it an option or mandetory?..I dont think that for one minute...I dont believe anyone..dont care how badly something was worded..is claiming to forcing such a thing ...Its just plain silly to suggest it Federal Government..Obama would even agree to that ..

LMS

Dunno. Im not a RW'er. so can't speak for them, I suppose. I dont think anything is being forced, but perhaps encouraged would be a better word.

[PoppySeeds]

Here is the case in which Robert Pearlman was involved in 1996:

http://wings.buffalo.edu/faculty/research/bioethics/brf-int.html

[PoppySeeds]

Dunno. Im not a RW'er. so can't speak for them, I suppose. I dont think anything is being forced, but perhaps encouraged would be a better word.


I believe Specter called it the "Hurry Up & Die" book.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

The author of the booklet, Dr Robert Pearlman, supports euthanasia. I am in NO WAY supporting that. Where did you twist that thought from?


Stand by for the link.

http://a12iggymom.vox.com/library/post/the-death-book-for-veterns.html

I only took you own words in that Dr. Robert Perlman authored this during the Bush administration..and your suggested that Dr. Pealman's support for euthanasia was automatically now Obama's agenda....Rediculous

There is an actual place for it...like pulling a plug on someone..or in like the Florida Case..but to assume your Federal Government is going to make it mandetory or make anyone make that decision.It's a rediculous notion....much less war vets coming home from the warfront..NOW..that is just enciting radicals...NO one with an ounce of common sense would ever see that ever happening..only those who would like to encite violent emotions..to feed the angers or fears...I find that whole route to be demeaning...US Government would never mandate such things...BTW..what has all this got to do with assisting other Americans to be able to afford basic HC (Health Care)?

LMS

[bkwits]

Pathetic actually.

Now I admit I have not read the document in question, but I read Towey's WSJ editorial and it is obviously the work of a "Deather" with an axe to grind.

Advance Directives are not for people who have lost limbs. They are for people who fall into a persistent vegetative state, or for some reason are unable to respond to questions and are not expected to recover. You may recall the case of Terri Sciavo (sp?) who unfortunately fell into a persistant vegetative state. She had not recorded her wishes, so it was left to her family to decide whether it was time to allow her to die. And they could not agree. Her husband said she would not have wanted to be kept alive in a persistant vegetative state indefinately, while her parents disagreed. And it fell to the courts to decide the case.

Of course a lot of politicians jumped on board this case as they saw an opportunity to do a lot of political grandstanding. They staged an astroturf protest outside the hospice where the poor lady's body was being kept alive. It was a sad spectacle, but a good example of what can happen if you do not have a living will.

Unfortunately, soldiers who go into combat are more likely than most people to suffer brain injuries that may leave them in a persistant vegetative state. And thay are seldom of an age where thay have even considered recording a living will. So it is entirely appropriate to bring the issue to their attention and give them the opportunity to think about it.

The pamphlet may be inappropriately worded. I have not seen the book. But it is clear Towey is more concerned with inflicting political damage on his President than he is with Veterans.

MO

Thank you for this. I have read about 2/3 of the booklet and I do find it poorly written and without much compassion. I was at the VA hospital in Wichita when my uncle died. He was a retired Naval Officer. The hospital was very, very nice with a comfortable waiting room. The doctors and nurses there were super. They handled it so well. The doc came out and talked to the family, especially my aunt. The doc helped her decide to take my uncle of the machines. They were so gracious to us. My mother, son, and I stayed with my uncle until he passed. He wasn't aware of it (or maybe he was at some level) but we didn't want him to die alone even if he was unconscious. Needless to say, I was comforted and pleased with the way they took care of my dear uncle.

[flareon]

I believe Specter called it the "Hurry Up & Die" book.

He is using humor to make a good point.

[bkwits]

The book was written in 1997, so Clinton would have been President. When Bush found out about it, he ordered it shelved.

Obama brought it out again. :sad:

mo

Do our presidents make every decision? If so, why do we need so many cabinet members and aides, assistants, etc? Are there enough hours in the day for a president to read everything concerning everybody and make the decision about whether it should be used? If this is true, then our government is more inefficient than even I thought it was.

IMO

[PoppySeeds]

I only took you own words in that Dr. Robert Perlman authored this during the Bush administration..and your suggested that Dr. Pealman's support for euthanasia was automatically now Obama's agenda....Rediculous

There is an actual place for it...like pulling a plug on someone..or in like the Florida Case..but to assume your Federal Government is going to make it mandetory or make anyone make that decision.It's a rediculous notion....much less war vets coming home from the warfront..NOW..that is just enciting radicals...NO one with an ounce of common sense would ever see that ever happening..only those who would like to encite violent emotions..to feed the angers or fears...I find that whole route to be demeaning...US Government would never mandate such things...BTW..what has all this got to do with assisting other Americans to be able to afford basic HC (Health Care)?

LMS

It was authored during the CLINTON administration and SHELVED during the Bush administration and now is being reissued during the Obama administration.
Have you not read ANY links on this thread? :rolleyes:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

He is using humor to make a good point.

And I agree..It was once again in poor taste..\whats with Politiians..geesh!!

Anyway..I found this little tid bit..from a link that was provided here~


http://www.vawatchdog.org/09/nf09/nfaug09/nf082009-3.htm


VA'S END-OF-LIFE GUIDE BOOK DRAWS FIRE
Critics say guide presents end-of-life choices in a way aimed at steering users toward predetermined conclusions.



NOTE from Larry Scott, VA Watchdog dot Org ... Having lost a loved one less than three months ago, I know a fair amount about end-of-life literature. I have a pile of it on a bookshelf.

After reading the VA's (also used by HHS and other government agencies) "Your Life, Your Choices," I see little difference between this guide and those provided by the private health care sector.

They all offer choices, and urge the dying and the family members to know their options.

What we have here is a politically-motivated opinion piece by someone vehemently opposed to a national health care reform program. So, read the article below with that in mind.

Are veterans being urged to die? No! Are they being told they are a burden to society? No!

Please read the article ... then read "Your Life, Your Choices," and make up your own mind.

You can view or download the VA guide here ... http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf

You may also want to look at literature distributed by private health care providers.

-------------------------

The Death Book for Veterans

Ex-soldiers don't need to be told they're a burden to society.

Goodness and this comes from Veterans Watch Dog....I find it interesting that some wish to make such enflammatory points without looking within their own link..or referring to it........??

LMS

[bkwits]

Tammy Duckworth says the guide is under revision and has not been officially reinstated.




http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/23/sen-specter-calls-hearings-end-life-care-guide-veterans/

[Lyndawitha"Y]

It was authored during the CLINTON administration and SHELVED during the Bush administration and now is being reissued during the Obama administration.
Have you not read ANY links on this thread? :rolleyes:

Yepper..and please read a snippet from such links..above..here ^^^^^

LMS

[PoppySeeds]

Yepper..and please read a snippet from such links..above..here ^^^^^

LMS

And you point is? You have your opinion (which means less than 0 to me since you have no dog in this fight) and others have their own.
I am not wasting any more time on you. You don't offer anything beneficial to the conversation, IMO.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

And you point is? You have your opinion (which means less than 0 to me since you have no dog in this fight) and others have their own.
I am not wasting any more time on you. You don't offer anything beneficial to the conversation, IMO.


LOL..Since the VA has denouced such nosense..you will blame the messanger..no probs...It only indicates your agenda...LOL

You inquired if I read the llinks and I did..and pointed out what was written by the VA themselves...hummming

For the record I will repeat what I posted since you didnt quote it..!~~


VA'S END-OF-LIFE GUIDE BOOK DRAWS FIRE
Critics say guide presents end-of-life choices in a way aimed at steering users toward predetermined conclusions.



[B]NOTE from Larry Scott, VA Watchdog dot Org ... Having lost a loved one less than three months ago, I know a fair amount about end-of-life literature. I have a pile of it on a bookshelf.

After reading the VA's (also used by HHS and other government agencies) "Your Life, Your Choices," I see little difference between this guide and those provided by the private health care sector.

They all offer choices, and urge the dying and the family members to know their options.

What we have here is a politically-motivated opinion piece by someone vehemently opposed to a national health care reform program. So, read the article below with that in mind.

Are veterans being urged to die? No! Are they being told they are a burden to society? No!

Please read the article ... then read "Your Life, Your Choices," and make up your own mind.

You can view or download the VA guide here ... http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf

You may also want to look at literature distributed by private health care providers.

LMS:ohmy:

[PoppySeeds]

LOL..Since the VA has denouced such nosense..you will blame the messanger..no probs...It only indicates your agenda...LOL

You inquired if I read the llinks and I did..and pointed out what was written by the VA themselves...hummming

For the record I will repeat what I posted since you didnt quote it..!~~


VA'S END-OF-LIFE GUIDE BOOK DRAWS FIRE
Critics say guide presents end-of-life choices in a way aimed at steering users toward predetermined conclusions.



[B]NOTE from Larry Scott, VA Watchdog dot Org ... Having lost a loved one less than three months ago, I know a fair amount about end-of-life literature. I have a pile of it on a bookshelf.

After reading the VA's (also used by HHS and other government agencies) "Your Life, Your Choices," I see little difference between this guide and those provided by the private health care sector.

They all offer choices, and urge the dying and the family members to know their options.

What we have here is a politically-motivated opinion piece by someone vehemently opposed to a national health care reform program. So, read the article below with that in mind.

Are veterans being urged to die? No! Are they being told they are a burden to society? No!

Please read the article ... then read "Your Life, Your Choices," and make up your own mind.

You can view or download the VA guide here ... http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf

You may also want to look at literature distributed by private health care providers.

LMS:ohmy:


And of course, we are to believe that the agency that is putting this booklet out has no agenda, right?
I guess we should all just duck our heads and agree to not look behind the curtain at what the government is doing....Right.... :sneaky:

On to the ignore list for the liberal Canadian who has no reason to become involved with American issues.

[PoppySeeds]

Oregon does not allow assisted suicide as Kavorkian was doing it. We have a "death with dignity" law that allows people with terminal illness to obtain a lethal dose of meds with which thay can take their own life unassisted if they choose.

I think this is a proper way to handle that situation. I have always marvled at laws against committing suicide. What are they going to do, charge you post mortem?

[orangetaffy]

I think this is a proper way to handle that situation. I have always marvled at laws against committing suicide. What are they going to do, charge you post mortem?

Im not opposed to "death with dignity" or assisted suicide. I think each person should have the right to make their own decision. I am against the govt getting involved in the counseling process..be it for or against such actions. It should be a matter for the patient and his or her family, not the govt, IMO.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

And of course, we are to believe that the agency that is putting this booklet out has no agenda, right?
I guess we should all just duck our heads and agree to not look behind the curtain at what the government is doing....Right.... :sneaky:

On to the ignore list for the liberal Canadian who has no reason to become involved with American issues.

Duck??Bob and Weave??? Just ask the VA Watchdog...isnt that what they do..

BTW Im not Liberal at all..Im a Middle of the road Conservative..even would go so far to say..I am a creature who listens..reads and votes for a representative that purports what I think is right...Dont give a hoot what party they are in..only their platform and promises...I am not actually politically minded at all...I only understand what is fair for the people in general..not wanting any catering to the few influencials..Sorry..not at all contraversial..rather boring..

BTW..I have reason to care and watch my US neighbours..but my reasons wouldnt make no differences to you..

Salut
LMS

[PoppySeeds]

Im not opposed to "death with dignity" or assisted suicide. I think each person should have the right to make their own decision. I am against the govt getting involved in the counseling process..be it for or against such actions. It should be a matter for the patient and his or her family, not the govt, IMO.

Exactly! And this booklet should not be given to wounded vetrans newly returned from a war zone. If it is going to be given, it should be to healthy men and woman who are mentally able to make unbiased decissions on their healthcare.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Im not opposed to "death with dignity" or assisted suicide. I think each person should have the right to make their own decision. I am against the govt getting involved in the counseling process..be it for or against such actions. It should be a matter for the patient and his or her family, not the govt, IMO.

Im in 100% agreement save the government part..Am I mistaken..Doesnt Government make LAW?..Doesnt the Government make it legal to be able to make such decisions available for those who wish to end things by their wishes??..That is what boggles my mind here???..It isnt the government that mandates..it is the government that allows you to make those decisions legally...

Man..I am being so misunderstood here!!

LMS

[orangetaffy]

Exactly! And this booklet should not be given to wounded vetrans newly returned from a war zone. If it is going to be given, it should be to healthy men and woman who are mentally able to make unbiased decissions on their healthcare.

My BIL is paralyzed from the waist down, He gets his medical care via the VA. He is very depressed. I have no doubt if he were to read this book at this point in his life, he would say his life isnt worth living. Now, if he were to discuss these issues with family and clergy, he would most likely have a different opinion.

[flareon]

I think this is a proper way to handle that situation. I have always marvled at laws against committing suicide. What are they going to do, charge you post mortem?

I always thought the laws were put into effect more to scare the ones who would help those who wished to end their lives. Many times people need some kind of help to complete the act. Other than that, the laws are kind of senseless.

[flareon]

If assisted suicide becomes legal, then jails and prisons will no longer need 'suicide watch' for their depressed prisoners. :huh:

If we see someone attempting to jump off a bridge, we walk right on by. :huh:

No need for 'suicide hot lines', I guess. :huh:

I don't know about the prisoner part. You will always have some survivors of these people who will try to sue for prison neglect in order to make a quick buck.

[PoppySeeds]

Interestingly, Patients who obtain the meds for ending their lives under Oregon's Death With Dignity law rarely end up using them.

I think for many, it is probably just a security blanket, so to speak. They know they have some kind of recourse if things get to the point that they can't take it any more.

[bkwits]

VERY well said! :thumbsup:

My hubby was a Viet Nam medic, and he could tell you stories about the depression that is associated with the combination of loneliness, shock of war, and endless surgeries, among the men he treated. They deserve our help when they come 'home' to America, limping, bandaged, and wounded in mind and spirit as well as body.

They do NOT need a depressing manual that offers them an easy way out, rather than redemption. MO

They need a hand up, not a kick while they're down.

The booklet says nothing about killing oneself.

[bkwits]

My BIL is paralyzed from the waist down, He gets his medical care via the VA. He is very depressed. I have no doubt if he were to read this book at this point in his life, he would say his life isnt worth living. Now, if he were to discuss these issues with family and clergy, he would most likely have a different opinion.

Did you read the booklet?

[orangetaffy]

Did you read the booklet?

yep, I did.

[bkwits]

[
(btw, bkwits, I'm sorry about your husband). :rose:[/QUOTE]




Thank you, I appreciate that.

[Hey Paula]

I'm glad you posted this. I was just watching Fox News Sunday, and Arlen Specter is really upset about the wording in this 'Death Book'. He will definitely be fighting it, he said, starting first thing tomorrow.

The wording is SO depressing! Reasons for ending one's life (assisted suicide) were, among others, "being confined to a wheelchair" or, "in a nursing home", or "always feeling blue". :angry:

So, a 20 year old Hero returning from Afghanistan in a wheelchair is being presented with a 'Death Book' of depressing scenarios. Just what they need from their Veterans Administration! This is a shame, imo. :cursing:

The one I found most upsetting and intimidating was: Do you feel you are a burden to your family? Even if a vet has the will to survive, despite being confined, s/he might feel guilty for being a burden to their family. The "Death Book" plants the thought/obligation to die, even if those thoughts were never there before.

The "Death Book" might have been the model for "end of life" services which was originally included in HR 3200, but subsequently removed.

IMO

[RosyParks]

The one I found most upsetting and intimidating was: Do you feel you are a burden to your family? Even if a vet has the will to survive, despite being confined, s/he might feel guilty for being a burden to their family. The "Death Book" plants the thought/obligation to die, even if those thoughts were never there before.

The "Death Book" might have been the model for "end of life" services which was originally included in HR 3200, but subsequently removed.

IMOCounselling regarding a living will has been part of VA services for years.

Why would you perpetuate the misinformation that a living will is anything but a responsible thing to provide for one's family?

[Hey Paula]

Counselling regarding a living will has been part of VA services for years.

Why would you perpetuate the misinformation that a living will is anything but a responsible thing to provide for one's family?

Is conferring guilt part of VA services too? I can see why GWB suspended usage of the "Death Book".

[orangetaffy]

Is conferring guilt part of VA services too? I can see why GWB suspended usage of the "Death Book".

Seems to me the obvious thing to do is require every soldier to fill out a living will during basic training...not wait till after he returns from war missing body parts.

As for the "guilt factor" included in this particular publication, God help the 18 year old kid who is handed this booklet when he is in the worst possible condition of his life.

[RosyParks]

Seems to me the obvious thing to do is require every soldier to fill out a living will during basic training...not wait till after he returns from war missing body parts.

As for the "guilt factor" included in this particular publication, God help the 18 year old kid who is handed this booklet when he is in the worst possible condition of his life.In the interset of fairness, perhaps give the young enlistee the living will option, before accepting the enlistment papers.

[RosyParks]

Is conferring guilt part of VA services too? I can see why GWB suspended usage of the "Death Book".The is no conference of guilt; the option is simple - outline your wishes in a living will.

[Hey Paula]

Seems to me the obvious thing to do is require every soldier to fill out a living will during basic training...not wait till after he returns from war missing body parts.

As for the "guilt factor" included in this particular publication, God help the 18 year old kid who is handed this booklet when he is in the worst possible condition of his life.

While I believe anyone who is in harm's way should make their wishes known in advance, should subsequent injuries prevent him/her from communicating them, I also feel disabled people can be productive in many ways. A person's worth shouldn't be judged by the number of limbs they possess, or whether they're working.

IMO

[RosyParks]

Living wills are the best option, as long as your doctor, family members, and the hospital you are in have a copy. It's also good to take a copy with you if you travel.
IMOExactly. It's most curious as to why some feel the need to misrepresent what a living will does; it protects one's interests.

:biggrin: Guess if we were truly bored, we could hang around to observe just how much carp some plan to shovel under one 'imo.'

[Hey Paula]

'Obligation to die' is an apt description, Paula. I could never defend using that on anyone, least of all, our Heroes. :sad:

I know how you feel, EV. It saddens me too. Our heroes deserve the best of everything, including the finest medical care.

[RosyParks]

While I believe anyone who is in harm's way should make their wishes known in advance, should subsequent injuries prevent him/her from communicating them, I also feel disabled people can be productive in many ways. A person's worth shouldn't be judged by the number of limbs they possess, or whether they're working.

IMOA living will has nothing to do with what you are asserting. A good example would be Christopher Reeve who was very productive and faced all challenges.

What a living will does is allow one a choice; a choice not to live when the only brain activity is brain stem. It's a personal choice, but one each person is allowed to make -for themselves.

[RosyParks]

I know how you feel, EV. It saddens me too. Our heroes deserve the best of everything, including the finest medical care.Yes, they do. They also deserve to make their own choices, an opportunity which is afforded to them.

The question is - why would you wish to continue to misrepresent the facts?

[orangetaffy]

excerpt from the publication..

Chris Larsen never told his family what kind
of medical measures he’d want if he became critically
ill. He is in a nursing home after having suffered a
severe stroke 9 months ago. He is paralyzed and
unable to take care of himself or communicate in any
way. Now he has pneumonia and will probably die
unless he goes to the hospital to receive intravenous
antibiotics. He also may need to be on a breathing
machine for a week or so. The doctor says that his
chances of returning to normal are remote, but that he
has a fair chance of getting over the pneumonia. His
family members disagree about what they should do.
His son Bill says, “Dad was never a quitter. He'd want
to fight to the very end, as long as there was the
slightest hope.” His daughter Trudy disagrees. “Sure,
Dad wasn’t a quitter, but he wanted to die naturally—
he would be horrified to be kept alive this way.”

In fact, Trudy’s views were the closest to Mr. Larsen’s
true opinion. But the family never had a way to find
this out. They treated his pneumonia and he lived
another year in the nursing home without recovering
his ability to communicate or care for himself.
This story shows why it is so important to discuss
your wishes. Talking with your family and health care
providers ahead of time can prevent confusion and
help ease the burden on them.

http://www.ethics.va.gov/YLYC/YLYC_First_edition_20001001.pdf


My question, if he was never able to communicate his wishes, how can anyone say "Trudy views were closest to Mr. Larsen's true opinion"?

In each scenario in this publication, it is always the "choose death" option that is presented as being the right option.

[RosyParks]

Do you think some people took Carp Shoveling 101 in school? :thumbsup::shrug: That is a possibility; why else the seeming desire to misrepresent what a living will does to protect one's interests?

[Hey Paula]

<<<<<<Respectfully Snipped>>>>>>


My question, if he was never able to communicate his wishes, how can anyone say "Trudy views were closest to Mr. Larsen's true opinion"?

In each scenario in this publication, it is always the "choose death" option that is presented as being the right option.

"Choose death" saves the government money as opposed to keeping the person alive via treatment/surgery/medical care.

This book would have likely been the model for Medicare patients had it been included in HR 3200. It was stated that most of the costs associated with Medicare were absorbed during the final stages of life.

IMO

[orangetaffy]

"Choose death" saves the government money as opposed to keeping the person alive via treatment/surgery/medical care.

This book would have likely been the model for Medicare patients had it been included in HR 3200. It was stated that most of the costs associated with Medicare were absorbed during the final stages of life.

IMO

And that is my problem with this publication. Yes, living wills are a wonderful, needed tool for everyone. And I dont have any problem with an agency providing the forms for a living will etc, but this publication goes beyond that, by attempting to influence how a person should decide on end of life care.

Mr. Larsen's story could have been told. Bill and Trudy's thoughts could have been mentioned...but the story should have ended right there. If the purpose of the story was to get the patient thinking about what THEY would want, the story alone would have sufficed. By adding in the opinion as to which decision was the right decision, the govt crossed the line, IMO.

[RosyParks]

"Choose death" saves the government money as opposed to keeping the person alive via treatment/surgery/medical care.

This book would have likely been the model for Medicare patients had it been included in HR 3200. It was stated that most of the costs associated with Medicare were absorbed during the final stages of life.

IMOPlease. Return to the OP - post #1. It's an op ed piece that characterizes what the VA has been doing since 1997. it is not particularly accurate. Again, there are many questions to consider, when having a living will written.

Take it to your opposite absurdity - shall we make provisions for those who want their heads severed and cryogenically preserved? If that's what you want, perhaps supplementals are in your best interest.

[Hey Paula]

And that is my problem with this publication. Yes, living wills are a wonderful, needed tool for everyone. And I dont have any problem with an agency providing the forms for a living will etc, but this publication goes beyond that, by attempting to influence how a person should decide on end of life care.

Mr. Larsen's story could have been told. Bill and Trudy's thoughts could have been mentioned...but the story should have ended right there. If the purpose of the story was to get the patient thinking about what THEY would want, the story alone would have sufficed. By adding in the opinion as to which decision was the right decision, the govt crossed the line, IMO.

ITA. It's a subliminal message designed to influence the reader into adopting Trudy's thinking by having it believed it was also Mr Larsen's true wishes.

IMO

[RosyParks]

ITA. It's a subliminal message designed to influence the reader into adopting Trudy's thinking by having it believed it was also Mr Larsen's true wishes.

IMOWhat a patronizing position to state that it's a "subliminal message" to cover all the contingencies, when assisting a person to write their living will.

Notice in the scenario Mr Larsen persisted for some months following a course of antibiotics; it in no measure improved his prognosis.

Again, it is about choice. To be honest, my greatest fear is the threat to doctors who may be less willing to prescribe pain relievers for fear it be misconstrued as euthanasia. If for instance I am breathing on brain stem activity only; no chance of recovery and my breathing becomes labored? I want the pain killers, tia, even if some might construe that as cutting my life short.

[theal3]

Well I saw the interview today, and first Wallace had on the guy who was the "Faith Based" exec. for Bush Admin, and guess he wrote a column earlier this week over HIS outrage over this book, which Bush scheduled for revision in 2007, when this guy called it to his attention and which is still not done.

Wallace made it sound like he had the biggest scoop of the century with this guy, but it turns out, all Obama did was put out a notice that the revision is still in the works and on schedule. Tammy D. tried over and over to point that out and said repeatedly that the VA is still under the Bush order, and scheduled plan, and that Obama, simply updated the VA web page to note that. Wallace called her a liar, and said he had a directive from Obama about the book to be referred to, and Tammy D. said she didn't know what he was referring to (she was not in the studio) and no such directive is in effect, but rather a reaffirmation of the Bush directive is still the operating directive, until the revision he ordered is done. She tried to explain that because federal dollars are used, they have to make documents available publically for reasearch etc and that's why they posted on the web site the "revision" statement, which the past admin. didn't do and should have.... Wallace was having none of it. He was very abrasive and rude... but in the end thanked her for her military service.

She repeatedly said vets can choose from many options and choices, but the VA offers a free booklet which list many sources and options including the counseling by the VA... for end of life issues.

Wallace made it seem like the VA has no businesses in counseling: it should be a family private matter. He didn't make sense to me.

My Dad a WW2 vets and Republican all his life and strong Bush supporter and Reagan etc, needed the VA towards the end of his life and had his wishes all made out for free, and it was much easier on the family when he died 2 years ago. Not all aging vets have the luxury of family around them etc, not in today's society, many times they are alone, or family in another state, or outlived their kids, spouses, brothers and sisters, or are divorced.

Wallace made a mountain out of mole hill. I'm sure all week that's all Fox is gonna play over and over: the scoop of the weekend. All this death and dying shows and scoops and talk is over the top. IMHO

[Jumbo1]

excerpt from the publication..

Chris Larsen never told his family what kind
of medical measures he’d want if he became critically
ill. He is in a nursing home after having suffered a
severe stroke 9 months ago. He is paralyzed and
unable to take care of himself or communicate in any
way. Now he has pneumonia and will probably die
unless he goes to the hospital to receive intravenous
antibiotics. He also may need to be on a breathing
machine for a week or so. The doctor says that his
chances of returning to normal are remote, but that he
has a fair chance of getting over the pneumonia. His
family members disagree about what they should do.
His son Bill says, “Dad was never a quitter. He'd want
to fight to the very end, as long as there was the
slightest hope.” His daughter Trudy disagrees. “Sure,
Dad wasn’t a quitter, but he wanted to die naturally—
he would be horrified to be kept alive this way.”

In fact, Trudy’s views were the closest to Mr. Larsen’s
true opinion. But the family never had a way to find
this out. They treated his pneumonia and he lived
another year in the nursing home without recovering
his ability to communicate or care for himself.
This story shows why it is so important to discuss
your wishes. Talking with your family and health care
providers ahead of time can prevent confusion and
help ease the burden on them.

http://www.ethics.va.gov/YLYC/YLYC_First_edition_20001001.pdf


My question, if he was never able to communicate his wishes, how can anyone say "Trudy views were closest to Mr. Larsen's true opinion"?

In each scenario in this publication, it is always the "choose death" option that is presented as being the right option.

They may have held a seance.

[orangetaffy]

What a patronizing position to state that it's a "subliminal message" to cover all the contingencies, when assisting a person to write their living will.

Notice in the scenario Mr Larsen persisted for some months following a course of antibiotics; it in no measure improved his prognosis.

Again, it is about choice. To be honest, my greatest fear is the threat to doctors who may be less willing to prescribe pain relievers for fear it be misconstrued as euthanasia. If for instance I am breathing on brain stem activity only; no chance of recovery and my breathing becomes labored? I want the pain killers, tia, even if some might construe that as cutting my life short.

Assisting someone in writing a living will should include providing the needed forms, when it comes to govt involvemennt. That should be their only role. All other assistance should come from family, clergy and the doctor.

I myself would chose to live in 99% of the scenarios presented in the publication. I will die when the good Lord says it is time, not when a minute before.

[beattherap]

Well I saw the interview today, and first Wallace had on the guy who was the "Faith Based" exec. for Bush Admin, and guess he wrote a column earlier this week over HIS outrage over this book, which Bush scheduled for revision in 2007, when this guy called it to his attention and which is still not done.

Wallace made it sound like he had the biggest scoop of the century with this guy, but it turns out, all Obama did was put out a notice that the revision is still in the works and on schedule. Tammy D. tried over and over to point that out and said repeatedly that the VA is still under the Bush order, and scheduled plan, and that Obama, simply updated the VA web page to note that. Wallace called her a liar, and said he had a directive from Obama about the book to be referred to, and Tammy D. said she didn't know what he was referring to (she was not in the studio) and no such directive is in effect, but rather a reaffirmation of the Bush directive is still the operating directive, until the revision he ordered is done. She tried to explain that because federal dollars are used, they have to make documents available publically for reasearch etc and that's why they posted on the web site the "revision" statement, which the past admin. didn't do and should have.... Wallace was having none of it. He was very abrasive and rude... but in the end thanked her for her military service.

She repeatedly said vets can choose from many options and choices, but the VA offers a free booklet which list many sources and options including the counseling by the VA... for end of life issues.

[snip]
Wallace made a mountain out of mole hill. I'm sure all week that's all Fox is gonna play over and over: the scoop of the weekend. All this death and dying shows and scoops and talk is over the top. IMHO

wallace was right... there is a 7/2/09 directive; it does state that primary care practitioners are responsible for giving patients pertinent educational materials and specifically names “Your Life, Your Choices.”

imfo.

[flareon]

Posters here keep reminding us that Living Wills are needed. Let me ask them this: WHO do you want advising you or your loved one about when is the right time to accept assisted suicide?

Do you want someone who is representing an entity that stands to BENEFIT FINANCIALLY from you or your loved one deciding to die???

I just can't believe everyone can't understand that it is the ENTITY that is behind these 'panels' and 'death books', the entity that stands to benefit, that makes it scary to us.

Only three entities should be involved in planning a living will: your trusted physician, your loving family, and your God. mo

You are exactly right. Plus it is good to question the timing. A professional would know when the best time is to approach a patient or family member. Usually there is a precipitating event that will trigger the need for advanced planning and it doesn't always have to involve the person themselves.

The problem with something like this is not only that the entity would benefit, but the ham-handed way it is being handled.

[flareon]

ITA. It's a subliminal message designed to influence the reader into adopting Trudy's thinking by having it believed it was also Mr Larsen's true wishes.

IMO

It can be that is why extra precaution should be taken at all points in decisions of this nature.

[Hey Paula]

It can be that is why extra precaution should be taken at all points in decisions of this nature.

Absolutely! But I wonder why this regime reinstated usage of the "Death Book" after GWB had suspended its usage in 2007? Was this to be a model for Medicare patients, justified by VA usage?

ETA: Chris Wallace is a true professional and always asks the necessary questions of his guests, regardless of their political affiliation.

[bkwits]

Living wills are the best option, as long as your doctor, family members, and the hospital you are in have a copy. It's also good to take a copy with you if you travel.
IMO

For the most part, doctors and hospitals ignore the living will if the patient is conscious or if the patient has family members present.

IMO

[bkwits]

Posters here keep reminding us that Living Wills are needed. Let me ask them this: WHO do you want advising you or your loved one about when is the right time to accept assisted suicide?

Do you want someone who is representing an entity that stands to BENEFIT FINANCIALLY from you or your loved one deciding to die???

I just can't believe everyone can't understand that it is the ENTITY that is behind these 'panels' and 'death books', the entity that stands to benefit, that makes it scary to us.

Only three entities should be involved in planning a living will: your trusted physician, your loving family, and your God. mo

Do you think doctors who are paid by Medicare recommended stopping life support to save the government money?

[bkwits]

Perhaps yours does. The hospital I've worked in for over 20 years doesn't ignore anything concerning a patient. Also, if a patient is conscious they are able to say "I have a living will."
IMO

Yes, I brought a copy of my husband's living will to the hospital. As far as I know, it was never consulted Our family doctor (a geriactric specialist) did just the kind of counseling that this booklet suggests. The other doctors ignored it. Our doctor, my husband, and I kept asking the nurses not to stick needles in his fingers every hour. The endocrinologist (I think it was) finally let them do it every two hours. Why? We all knew he had only a few days, at most, to live. There is more, but you get the picture, I think.

[orangetaffy]

Perhaps yours does. The hospital I've worked in for over 20 years doesn't ignore anything concerning a patient. Also, if a patient is conscious they are able to say "I have a living will."
IMO

I know in our state, a spouse can over-ride a living will.

[orangetaffy]

Tort reform is left out because so many senators and members of congress are lawyers...

[bkwits]

Bkwits, I think the reason the doctors were overly careful is because they have been victims of law suits so many times, they're forced to care for patients to the nth degree, whether they feel it is necessary or even humane, to do so.

That is why I think for Obama to leave out Tort Reform in any health care reform, is unwise, if not downright suspicious. (Supposedly, attorneys supported his election in much greater numbers than McCain's). MO

Oh, come on. It wasn't even his doctors. If you don't think some doctors are looking at the dollar signs (either for themselves or the hospital, or both) you are sadly mistaken, imo. I had plenty of grounds to sue, but not that doctor. I could have sued his hematologist/oncologist. A very kind and compassionate doctor who admitted to me that he made a mistake which cost my husband untold misery. I chose not to because he treated like human beings.

[bkwits]

Doctors don't work for, or answer to, the Government. Yet.

Yes, sometimes they do when they take Medicare payments. They answer to insurance companies which are more restrictive and changeable than Medicare. IMO They should have to answer to their patients. If you haven't had a health care provider refuse treatment because they believe your insurance won't pay for it, you are very lucky. IMO

[Barbara2]

Yes, sometimes they do when they take Medicare payments. They answer to insurance companies which are more restrictive and changeable than Medicare. IMO They should have to answer to their patients. If you haven't had a health care provider refuse treatment because they believe your insurance won't pay for it, you are very lucky. IMO

I've never been denied anything.

[bkwits]

I've never been denied anything.

If you or your family haven't been denied coverage, you are fortunate or haven't lived very long.

IMO

[Barbara2]

If you or your family haven't been denied coverage, you are fortunate or haven't lived very long.

IMO

Or I'm rich. Isn't that the only other option to fortunate or lived long?

[orangetaffy]

I've never been denied anything.

We have only been denied one time, and that was by tri-care.

[bkwits]

Or I'm rich. Isn't that the only other option to fortunate or lived long?

Not really, a close family member is quite wealthy and she was denied coverage for a treatment of a rare disease.

[bkwits]

We have only been denied one time, and that was by tri-care.

ONLY one time? What if that was a life-saving treatment or a test that would alert you to a problem that, if treated early, could be life-saivng?

[Barbara2]

Not really, a close family member is quite wealthy and she was denied coverage for a treatment of a rare disease.

Denied coverage is not denied treatment. O.K. So maybe I'm not rich. Maybe I just have really good insurance. (That would be the other, unlisted option to "fortunate", "haven't lived long".)

[orangetaffy]

ONLY one time? What if that was a life-saving treatment or a test that would alert you to a problem that, if treated early, could be life-saivng?

IMO, there isnt a system out there that wont involve some denials. If folks are thinking this new proposal of the govt's is going to get rid of that, they are very much mistaken. IMO, it will lead to more denials, not less.

[orangetaffy]

Really? I'd like to read about that. Got links? TIA

I thought "IMO" meant it was opinion? Am I mistaken?

[Barbara2]

How lucky for you. May we all have the name of you Health Ins. Co.? I know there are several of us who haven't been as fortunate as you seem to be on every level with regard to your health ins. carrier.

Thanks in advance.

I'm pretty sure it's Anthem but I know there are different "flavors" of Anthem. I couldn't swear which one it is. I just know that I've never been denied.

[bkwits]

IMO, there isnt a system out there that wont involve some denials. If folks are thinking this new proposal of the govt's is going to get rid of that, they are very much mistaken. IMO, it will lead to more denials, not less.

Probably not, but my experience with Medicare has been positve, very positve compare to private insurance. It is easy to find out what is covered, most of the doctors know what is covered. Medicare has guidelies and docs and hospitals mostly know about what they are going to be reimbursed.

The biggest asset to Medicare vs. private insurance, imo, is the accessibility. You can talk to someone, you can find out things online. Private insurance cos. often want to deal only with health care professionals, imo.

[bkwits]

Here is a list from 2007 for the Senate:






More at the link: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/09/05/lawyers-in-the-us-senate-quiz-the-answers/



So what, anyone who is interested in politics or the law often gets a law degree. That doesn't mean they want to go around suing everyone. My son has a law degree and he fights the IRS. My nephew is a law student who may go into politics.

Both of these men are fine upstanding compassionate people, as is my neighbor, who is also an attorney. I get tired of everyone slamming lawyers.

[orangetaffy]

Probably not, but my experience with Medicare has been positve, very positve compare to private insurance. It is easy to find out what is covered, most of the doctors know what is covered. Medicare has guidelies and docs and hospitals mostly know about what they are going to be reimbursed.

The biggest asset to Medicare vs. private insurance, imo, is the accessibility. You can talk to someone, you can find out things online. Private insurance cos. often want to deal only with health care professionals, imo.

My experience with insurance overall has been very positive. I dont consider 1 denied claim in 25 years a bad service at all. Biggest problem with medicare is finding a doctor who will accept it.

[ABC]

Really? I didn't know that. Got links??
Yes, really. Love the law link - 60 out of a 100 are lawyers. Who would have thought? Without Tort reform, forget the rest of it. Doc's order all the stuff for fear of a law suit and all medical personell are aware that connected with their actions is a question in their minds "Well tell us, Ms B is what you did standard practice in America". As today, ordering every test known to man plus a few not known is standard. Both my private insurance (Aetna and United health plan) were excellent and medicare is terrific. It is like the Post Office, folks like to complain but they do a fine job. In all my dealing with either the PO or Health Insurance, never had a problem and don't today. The Insurance companies will write any policy folks or a company want as long as the premium is paid.

[orangetaffy]

My two older brothers are attorneys, I've always thought the rancor toward lawyers is just jealousy. I get tired of the slamming and jokes too.
IMO

My post about lawyers wasnt intended to be a slam. It was to point out that lawyers wouldnt want to enact laws that will hurt others in their profession. Tort reform would have a significant impact on many lawyers. How many ads do we see on tv, for class action law suits for this...class action law suits for that etc? Tort reform would limit such suits. The ads saying "have you been injured in an accident? Call me, I got johnny $300,000 for his injured back. let me help you too"

[PoppySeeds]

My two older brothers are attorneys, I've always thought the rancor toward lawyers is just jealousy. I get tired of the slamming and jokes too.
IMO


My best friend is a lawyer, and he knows some of the best lawyer jokes I have ever heard. He also proudly proclaims he is an ambulance chaser. As a personal injury attorney, he is one of the best in our state, and has even made a HUGE recovery for a family who's child was wrongly removed by DHS and the child was killed in foster care. Most lawyers, IMO, have a great sense of humor when it comes to their choosen career.

[bkwits]

My experience with insurance overall has been very positive. I dont consider 1 denied claim in 25 years a bad service at all. Biggest problem with medicare is finding a doctor who will accept it.

Really? I haven't had that problem. I have seen my GP who is an internist, an orthopedic doctor, a psych doc, an otolaryngogist and all were covered. I guess those doctors who won't accept Medicare want to soak people. Imo

[bkwits]

My post about lawyers wasnt intended to be a slam. It was to point out that lawyers wouldnt want to enact laws that will hurt others in their profession. Tort reform would have a significant impact on many lawyers. How many ads do we see on tv, for class action law suits for this...class action law suits for that etc? Tort reform would limit such suits. The ads saying "have you been injured in an accident? Call me, I got johnny $300,000 for his injured back. let me help you too"

Why do you think that people should not be compensated for being hurt? And class action law suits are often the only way that the average person can be partially repaid for being victimized. And it helps keep companies partially honest.

[orangetaffy]

Really? I haven't had that problem. I have seen my GP who is an internist, an orthopedic doctor, a psych doc, an otolaryngogist and all were covered. I guess those doctors who won't accept Medicare want to soak people. Imo

I think it depends upon many things. The doctor who see's more patients can afford to accept less payments. my husband had an EKG a few months ago. Medicare allowed $4.95. Such low payments cannot sustain high quality medical care.

Under the military system, a doctor is allowed 10 minutes per patient. Only one issue may be discussed at an appointment. Price is right, but service is a bit lacking.

[orangetaffy]

Why do you think that people should not be compensated for being hurt? And class action law suits are often the only way that the average person can be partially repaid for being victimized. And it helps keep companies partially honest.

IMO lawsuits with huge awards are one of the factors contributing to rising health costs. Only in America are such huge awards granted, and only in America are we sitting here wondering why our medical costs are so high.

IMO class action lawsuits many times reap good payouts for the lawyers, but very minimal payouts for those involved.

[bkwits]

IMO lawsuits with huge awards are one of the factors contributing to rising health costs. Only in America are such huge awards granted, and only in America are we sitting here wondering why our medical costs are so high.

IMO class action lawsuits many times reap good payouts for the lawyers, but very minimal payouts for those involved.


I wonder how much that really affects health care. Or is it just a smokescreen the rich execs and insurance companies hide behind. There is much waster and duplication of benefits in private insurance. I'm in favor of everyone paying their own premium and no more tax deduction for companies paying employee premiums.

IMO

[orangetaffy]

I wonder how much that really affects health care. Or is it just a smokescreen the rich execs and insurance companies hide behind. There is much waster and duplication of benefits in private insurance. I'm in favor of everyone paying their own premium and no more tax deduction for companies paying employee premiums.

IMO

I think employer provided insurance should be eliminated. Everyone should purchase their own policy, it should be transportable across state lines, and the amount of the policy should be tax deductable.

The last statistics I saw said malpractice insurance accounts for 15% of a doctors expenses, IIRC.

[bkwits]

I think employer provided insurance should be eliminated. Everyone should purchase their own policy, it should be transportable across state lines, and the amount of the policy should be tax deductable.

The last statistics I saw said malpractice insurance accounts for 15% of a doctors expenses, IIRC.

Now we agree on something. I think the same thing. There needs to be large co ops to buy insurance. As a small business person, I used to buy Blue Cross through a county business owners association. After several years, Blue Cross eliminated the plan and converted it to individual policies with higher premiums and less coverage.

15% doesn't seem that bad. My son was a small contractor and had to pay 20% for each employee for Workmen's Comp.

[PoppySeeds]

Different type of law. My brothers are Intl Corporate Attorneys with 85 lawyers working for them in their firm. It seems a little boring to me, they really could use more jokes :laugh:
IMO


That DOES sound boring..And very dry.

[orangetaffy]

Now we agree on something. I think the same thing. There needs to be large co ops to buy insurance. As a small business person, I used to buy Blue Cross through a county business owners association. After several years, Blue Cross eliminated the plan and converted it to individual policies with higher premiums and less coverage.

15% doesn't seem that bad. My son was a small contractor and had to pay 20% for each employee for Workmen's Comp.

It's 15% higher medical bills for everyone. perhaps it is not that bad, but it adds up.

Then the overhead of his office, his employee's, the massive amounts of paperwork that must be processed for even the most minor office visit etc. Isnt hard to see why an office visit costs what it does.

The average family practice doc makes around $120,000 - $140,000/year. That is hardly what I would call getting rich off of their patients, considering he/she will have years of student loans which has to be paid. Student loans often run over $200,000 for a student to complete med school. IIRC they have 10 years to pay those loans back. I know the current interest rate for non-subsidized sanford loans is right around 5%. Interest accumulates while the student attends college, so that 200,000 in loans would actually be much higher once interest is factored in. The monthly payment on such student loans would be $2,121.31

[bkwits]

It's 15% higher medical bills for everyone. perhaps it is not that bad, but it adds up.

Then the overhead of his office, his employee's, the massive amounts of paperwork that must be processed for even the most minor office visit etc. Isnt hard to see why an office visit costs what it does.

The average family practice doc makes around $120,000 - $140,000/year. That is hardly what I would call getting rich off of their patients, considering he/she will have years of student loans which has to be paid. Student loans often run over $200,000 for a student to complete med school. IIRC they have 10 years to pay those loans back. I know the current interest rate for non-subsidized sanford loans is right around 5%. Interest accumulates while the student attends college, so that 200,000 in loans would actually be much higher once interest is factored in. The monthly payment on such student loans would be $2,121.31

Part of the President's health care plan is to get more GP docs. Maybe govt will subsidize part of their education as we have done for teachers. I agree that most of the GP docs are not getting rich.

However, many of the health insurance execs are and it seems to me that they have no one to answer to . If a health ins company goes down the tubes, what happens to the insureds?

[orangetaffy]

Part of the President's health care plan is to get more GP docs. Maybe govt will subsidize part of their education as we have done for teachers. I agree that most of the GP docs are not getting rich.

However, many of the health insurance execs are and it seems to me that they have no one to answer to . If a health ins company goes down the tubes, what happens to the insureds?

I think we will soon find out. Govt plans are going to be priced 20% cheaper than other plans, so, IMO most people will end up on the govt plan. insurance companies will be a dinosaur. Those companies that do survive will be for the rich, not the average American.

[bkwits]

I think we will soon find out. Govt plans are going to be priced 20% cheaper than other plans, so, IMO most people will end up on the govt plan. insurance companies will be a dinosaur. Those companies that do survive will be for the rich, not the average American.

Hopefully, the companies that survive will be those that are responsive to the needs of their insureds, not the money-grubbing bloated wastefulness that we now have. I know many people who have double coverage because the husband and wife both have employer paid plans. This is a waste of money because only one plan will pay for health care. I would like a govt. oversight on denied coverage. This could apply to medicare right away.

Now, I have had no problem with medicare or my supplement policy as far as coverage, but I have had problems before medicare. And don't even try to get treatment if the ins. company says or the doctor thinks you are not covered. I don't find this to be that unusual because it has happened to many members of my family, all on different health plans.

I say make those darn insurance companies answerable to the people they cover. Who do they answer to now?

[orangetaffy]

Hopefully, the companies that survive will be those that are responsive to the needs of their insureds, not the money-grubbing bloated wastefulness that we now have. I know many people who have double coverage because the husband and wife both have employer paid plans. This is a waste of money because only one plan will pay for health care. I would like a govt. oversight on denied coverage. This could apply to medicare right away.

Now, I have had no problem with medicare or my supplement policy as far as coverage, but I have had problems before medicare. And don't even try to get treatment if the ins. company says or the doctor thinks you are not covered. I don't find this to be that unusual because it has happened to many members of my family, all on different health plans.

I say make those darn insurance companies answerable to the people they cover. Who do they answer to now?

Yes, but under the new proposals, if the wife should opt out of her employer offered coverage, her employer would be fined. How is that the answer? I agree, insurance companies should be regulated, but I didnt think the govt should be going about things the way they are right now.

ETA: also included in the new proposals, it says once the new board or oversite committee is set up for the govt plan, any decisions they make will be final, there will be no appeals process if your claim is denied.

[bkwits]

Yes, but under the new proposals, if the wife should opt out of her employer offered coverage, her employer would be fined. How is that the answer? I agree, insurance companies should be regulated, but I didnt think the govt should be going about things the way they are right now.

ETA: also included in the new proposals, it says once the new board or oversite committee is set up for the govt plan, any decisions they make will be final, there will be no appeals process if your claim is denied.

That's too bad that there will be no appeals. I don't necessarily agree with every provision of HR3200, but I think we need to do something. Of course, I have said I think everyone should pay for their own insurance. I believe the govt. should remove the tax deductions for companies that provide health ins for the employees. My daughter owns a small business that she and her husband work at. She can take deductions for her employees but not for her own family. The present health care system is stifling small business.

IMO

[ortiga]

snipped Of course, I have said I think everyone should pay for their own insurance. I believe the govt. should remove the tax deductions for companies that provide health ins for the employees. My daughter owns a small business that she and her husband work at. She can take deductions for her employees but not for her own family. The present health care system is stifling small business.

IMO

ITA with that, re small business.

[orangetaffy]

ITA with that, re small business.

Yes, I agree. IMO insurance should not come thru any empoyer. Everyone should purchase their own. Take the workplace out of the equation all together.

[snookums1]

The claim that the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has a manual encouraging veterans to "commit suicide," made by Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele, is an asinine assertion with no basis in fact.

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/index.php/whats-new/1165-veterans-for-common-sense

There is a video at the site of Steele saying just that. You know, we all have opinions about health care and it ok that those opinions differ. However, it is not ok to lie in order to prove a point or scare people to get your own way.

[orangetaffy]

All the while Spector is calling for an investigation of the VA over the publication. It should be pointed out, VCS is NOT connected to the VA, and does not represent all veterans.

As a veteran myself, I am upset with the wording of the pamphlet, and think it should be completely revised, and its use should be prohibited until such revisions are made.

[flareon]

All the while Spector is calling for an investigation of the VA over the publication. It should be pointed out, VCS is NOT connected to the VA, and does not represent all veterans.

As a veteran myself, I am upset with the wording of the pamphlet, and think it should be completely revised, and its use should be prohibited until such revisions are made.

I think everyone knew that. All you had to do was look at the silly name of the website. :biggrin:

[Roux]

The claim that the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has a manual encouraging veterans to "commit suicide," made by Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele, is an asinine assertion with no basis in fact.

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/index.php/whats-new/1165-veterans-for-common-sense

There is a video at the site of Steele saying just that. You know, we all have opinions about health care and it ok that those opinions differ. However, it is not ok to lie in order to prove a point or scare people to get your own way.

Last Sunday I saw Chris Wallace had a segment on the booklet and the wording contained therein left a very bad taste. The representative of the VA could not, or would not, answer the questions posed by Chris. In fact, she was very evasive.

I haven't read the entire pamphlet myself. Have you? I guess we are all entitled to our interpretation.

[snookums1]

Whether the pamphlet should continue to be made available pending its revision is a matter for political debate. Here, however, we are focusing on Steele's claim that the manual encourages veterans to commit suicide.

After reading the 51-page pamphlet, we conclude unequivocally that it does not. Rather, the pamphlet encourages vets to think about the kind of advanced care they'd like to receive in various situations, to communicate those wishes to loved ones, and to formally put them into writing (including steps on how to prepare a personalized living will).
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/25/michael-steele/rnc-chairman-michael-steele-says-va-has-manual-enc/

There is a huge difference between encouraging people to discuss their wishes or encouraging them to make a living will and as Steele claims, encouraging them to commit suicide. I have a living will, as does my husband. We have given copies to all our children. They know our wishes and that is to their benefit. I personally have had to deal with making medical decisions with both my parents and my father-in-law. I never want my loved ones to have to go through that.

[orangetaffy]

The VA has admitted the pamphlet is flawed.

"However, the VA did acknowledge in November 2007 that although "clear in its presentation," it has been "interpreted by some to be too negative in tone and not sufficiently sensitive to the perspectives of veterans with pro-life perspectives and veterans living with life-long disabling conditions." At that point, the VA officially suspended use of "Your Life, Your Choices" pending review by an expert panel, including input from faith-based groups as well as disability experts."

[Barbara2]

Here is the pamphlet. You can read and decide for yourself:

http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf

[snookums1]

Here is the pamphlet. You can read and decide for yourself:

http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf You beat me to it. Thanks.

[orangetaffy]

Here is the pamphlet. You can read and decide for yourself:

http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf

Yes, I have a copy of the pamphlet. I spent many hours last week speaking with the people at VFW, DVA and the VA voicing my concerns over the wording, and the over-all negative connotation behind it.

[Barbara2]

You beat me to it. Thanks.

If you have read it, I'm quite surprised that you are defending it's use. IMO

[snookums1]

If you have read it, I'm quite surprised that you are defending it's use. IMOLet me tell you 2 stories. I had a friend, all my life, Stan. He married Alice and they had 4 kids. They watched my kids while I worked and I helped with theirs. When in her 40's, Alice notied a lump on her breast. She had advanced breast cancer. They removed both breasts and lymph nodes, did chemo and radiation. Withing months she raised her shirt and showed me a lump on her chest. The cancer was back and had invaded her lungs. Within weeks she was in the hospital. I went in with Stan to see her. She was struggling and gasping for breath, even with oxygen. She could not speak and looked terrified. I asked a nurse to give her a seditive and was told it was not time yet. I demanded a doctor be called immediately. He gave her a shot and then took Stan aside and asked what kind of treatment they should give her if something occurred. Stan said "I have talked it over with her sister and we want you to keep her alive as long as possible". I tried to explain to him that was the wrong decision but he was adament. Within 24 hours her heart stopped. Because of what Stan had said, they resusitated her and put her on life support. Problem was, by that time she was brain dead. She was on those machines for 2 weeks before Stan was forced to call the kids together and they had to tell the doctors to shut off the machines. At her funeral he said "I should have listened to you". Stan lost his house over medical bills.
I was POA for my father-in-law. He had a major stroke. I was told if he was not put on life support he would die that night. I got as much information from the doctors as possible and then decided to not put him on support and called in a Priest. As the Priest was giving him the blessing, he opened his eyes and through sheer will did not close them for hours. He was never put on a machine and lived for four years. There are times when it should be left up to God and not up to doctors. And like I said, I have a living will. I have answered for myself all the questions in that pamphlet. My kids and my doctor know my wishes. I don't want to be kept "alive" by artificial means if there is not more than a 50% chance that I can successfully be taken off the machines and go on to live some kind of meaningful life. If God decides it is my time, so be it.

[orangetaffy]

Demand an apology, get real, more spin from the left. No question the booklet, Your life, your choices is giving the reader the option of suicide in some form as one of their choices. Tammy Duckworth hemmed and hawed and it was obvious she was trying to spin the truth but didn't have enough expertise to be convincing.

Personally I have no problem with assisted suicide (voluntary) and can only guess that Obama and crew feel they must hide the truth from the public until they can pass this loser (healthcare). It does seem that the liberal healthcare plan not only is all for assisted suicide but by rationing care they can accomplish the same goal without the patient's willingness to participate. Maybe they can offer incentives that will encourage voluntary euthanasia.

Right. I have no problem with anyone deciding they don't want to be kept alive via machines. I think everyone should have a living will. My problem with this publication is not the questions it has the reader ask of themselves, it is fact that in every scenario they give, THEIR interpretation of "the right thing to do" is to choose not to live. IMO they should not give any interpretation as to what the "right" choice would be. The "right" choice is whatever choice the reader should decide to make, IMO.

[Barbara2]

Let me tell you 2 stories. I had a friend, all my life, Stan. He married Alice and they had 4 kids. They watched my kids while I worked and I helped with theirs. When in her 40's, Alice notied a lump on her breast. She had advanced breast cancer. They removed both breasts and lymph nodes, did chemo and radiation. Withing months she raised her shirt and showed me a lump on her chest. The cancer was back and had invaded her lungs. Within weeks she was in the hospital. I went in with Stan to see her. She was struggling and gasping for breath, even with oxygen. She could not speak and looked terrified. I asked a nurse to give her a seditive and was told it was not time yet. I demanded a doctor be called immediately. He gave her a shot and then took Stan aside and asked what kind of treatment they should give her if something occurred. Stan said "I have talked it over with her sister and we want you to keep her alive as long as possible". I tried to explain to him that was the wrong decision but he was adament. Within 24 hours her heart stopped. Because of what Stan had said, they resusitated her and put her on life support. Problem was, by that time she was brain dead. She was on those machines for 2 weeks before Stan was forced to call the kids together and they had to tell the doctors to shut off the machines. At her funeral he said "I should have listened to you". Stan lost his house over medical bills.
I was POA for my father-in-law. He had a major stroke. I was told if he was not put on life support he would die that night. I got as much information from the doctors as possible and then decided to not put him on support and called in a Priest. As the Priest was giving him the blessing, he opened his eyes and through sheer will did not close them for hours. He was never put on a machine and lived for four years. There are times when it should be left up to God and not up to doctors. And like I said, I have a living will. I have answered for myself all the questions in that pamphlet. My kids and my doctor know my wishes. I don't want to be kept "alive" by artificial means if there is not more than a 50% chance that I can successfully be taken off the machines and go on to live some kind of meaningful life. If God decides it is my time, so be it.

That has nothing to do with the pamphlet and the wording in it. This isn't about someone who makes the decision to have a living will. It is a pamphlet with very negative wording in it that would very likely make a veteran, say one in a wheelchair, feel worthless long before they were in an end of life situation. IMO

[Pat]

Thanks for posting your thoughts, Barbara2. I was just about to ask why that post had to do with the VA pamphlet. Given the two examples the OP used, I would gather the individual hasn't bothered to read the link she posted.

The VA has suspended its use until it is reviewed by disability experts, among others, so obviously they realize there are problems.

There is another thread on this issue already. Did the OP start another thread in order to use the words "Lie", "GOP" and "FOX" in the same line...highlighted?

[watcher2005]

That has nothing to do with the pamphlet and the wording in it. This isn't about someone who makes the decision to have a living will. It is a pamphlet with very negative wording in it that would very likely make a veteran, say one in a wheelchair, feel worthless long before they were in an end of life situation. IMO

It's a very depressing pamphlet.

[Noahs ARK]

As the wife of a disabled veteran I find nothing offensive about the pamphlet, neither does my husband.

When my husband became disabled 2-1/2 years ago, almost every issue discussed in that pamphlet became important to us.

Living Wills, Power of Attorney, Advanced Care, etc...

We had long talks about my husband's wishes and what he wants if and when he's unable to make any decisions.

I don't find the pamphlet negative at all - I find it realistic and thought-provoking.

It's giving the veteran CONTROL over their lives during a time when they've lost control.

[R~O~S]

As the wife of a disabled veteran I find nothing offensive about the pamphlet, neither does my husband.

When my husband became disabled 2-1/2 years ago, almost every issue discussed in that pamphlet became important to us.

Living Wills, Power of Attorney, Advanced Care, etc...

We had long talks about my husband's wishes and what he wants if and when he's unable to make any decisions.

I don't find the pamphlet negative at all - I find it realistic and thought-provoking.

It's giving the veteran CONTROL over their lives during a time when they've lost control.

TY for your first hand account Noah! I'm glad you found it informative, even if in need of a little softening in the language.

We don't see you over in this neck of the woods often, stop in again soon! It's always a pleasure.

[theal3]

From what I've seen (the Wallace interviews with the guy who headed the faith based programs for Bush, and who has his own pamphlet he'd like the Vets to buy and use, (he implied it wasn't as Christian like, as he wanted it, too many secular type questions or thinking; and Duckworth, tried to explain Bush scheduled a revision and review of the pamphlet, which has not yet been finish, but in the works and Obama approved conintinuing the revision) there's been some exaggeration about the existing pamphlet which has been in use for many, many years, until Bush's person raised a ruckus over it in 2007, and got Bush to look into revising or updating it) When the Shiavo case hit several years ago, we had not yet made out end of life issues, so went to a lawyer and had the will and all end of life issues put in writing, filled out the forms etc; and gave copies to all of our kids.

Many people don't plan ahead. The Vets offer programs for counseling vets for free and I can also see much older vets are sometimes alone: no family having divorced, or out lived them etc. I think it's good while they are competent to make decisions, to plan ahead for last wishes, rites etc. Asking NOT to be kept alive by any means or all mechinisms is NOT suicide, but the Right seems to want to call it that.

[theal3]

Well, speaking as a Vet and having read your post a couple of times in an effort to understand what it is you're attempting to say, my only comment is:

HUH???

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

The pamphlet is a good idea, used for years. It's under updating and revision and that's good. Bush started it and Obama is continuing it. It's not a "death pamphlet urging suicide." IMHO

[Bill Justice]

All the while Spector is calling for an investigation of the VA over the publication. It should be pointed out, VCS is NOT connected to the VA, and does not represent all veterans.

As a veteran myself, I am upset with the wording of the pamphlet, and think it should be completely revised, and its use should be prohibited until such revisions are made.

Me Too. We don't need Dr Kevorkian advice by our own government. Disgraceful.

[ExArkie]

As the wife of a disabled veteran I find nothing offensive about the pamphlet, neither does my husband.

When my husband became disabled 2-1/2 years ago, almost every issue discussed in that pamphlet became important to us.

Living Wills, Power of Attorney, Advanced Care, etc...

We had long talks about my husband's wishes and what he wants if and when he's unable to make any decisions.

I don't find the pamphlet negative at all - I find it realistic and thought-provoking.

It's giving the veteran CONTROL over their lives during a time when they've lost control.

What an intelligent, thoughtful post! I'm a Vet, too - and the widow of someone who suffered with a terminal illness. Vet, or not, CONTROL and hard information is what we need - no sugar coating.

[skolapper]

got a bit sidetracked by the excitement aso will compensate by posting a couple rounds per day for the next few days.

Easy sideline trivia question. Whats the link between 3 of the albums in this list?