Wrongful death suit?

[mjbones]

I haven't seen this topic addressed yet, hope it was ok to start this thread.

I would LOVE to see suits filed on all of the characters who contributed to Michael's death. I wonder if those confidentialty clauses he was covered by have to be upheld by the family??

I would LOVE to see them file suit against TS, DD, detectives (should be completely wrong to be able to do what they did & get by with it soley cause their "law enforcement"....anyone else did that, they'd be sued), Chandler's & their lawyer.....I think if the proof is there to show what they did/how they did it....& in some the final outcome for their lying was $$$$. I believe they should do it & clear Michael's name using the proof he was not allowed to. I believe it would be important to the kids for their father to be cleared.

Once that was done & they won, get all that $$$ back.....& the satisfaction of knowing Michael would be glad his name was finally cleared. I'm sorry, but if its all true.....no Chandler deserves to be living the good life with money obtained by lies.

If indeed its true, Michael's drug problems were started by Pepsi injury, then contributed too by the stresses of being lied on & drug thru the mud for someone's purely greedy purposes....then they would all be contributors to his death.

Would be nice, just once to see justice prevail....... (assuming the proof is there & used)

JMHO
mjbones

[Firehead11]

I think a wrongful death suit should be filed at the very least. And I am not one for law suits. If the reports are true, this doctor contributed to his death.

Other doctors who prescribed controlled drugs "just because" should be charged also. They enabled him.

My problem with Sneddon, is that during his searches, they found all these drugs but yet never informed anyone What was reported during that period of time is alcohol in soda. You would think that that tidbit of info would have been leaked out.

Things are not adding up here at all. Ijust wish that they would release the tox reports.

[Rayosunshine]

I agree that there should be a wrongful death suit, esp. against Dr. Murray. At the least, he acted with reckless disregard for human life, committed medical malpractice (administering a known anesthesia drug in the home - even a moron knows you don't do that), medical negligence due to administering an anesthetic in the home without proper equipment/personnel in the event of a crisis - this is no different than being drunk at the wheel and killing someone. If the law doesn't get him, peer review and the licensing boards in the states he holds a license in will. I hope he will never again be able to practice medicine anywhere in the world. His acts were heinous, to say the least.

MJ may have contributed to his own death, but he is not licensed doctor, whose mission should be "to do no harm". MJ could not be expected to have the knowledge as to what the requirements are when a drug such as propofol is administered in any setting other than one that is being managed by an anesthesiologist. (In any surgical suite, the anesthesiologist is in control, not the surgeon or anyone else).

[bobarr69]

If you want to know the truth about the death of Michael Jackson, watch Larry King Live tonight, but before you do that, read this. (http://betshort.com/raid.htm)

Nobody is ever going to get arrested for the death of Michael Jackson, and I will tell you the reason for that tomorrow, AFTER the Larry King Live show.

Don't miss it !

[Firehead11]

Well, sorry. I won't open the link. If LKL will be announcing something tomorrow, then if we watch the show, we all will kow what it is all about. Good Day to You!

[Firehead11]

LOL.. !!! :laugh: I just love a sense of humor. Tata now!

[bobarr69]

It's better to be famous as opposed to infamous.

Dr. Murray is infamous. The Jackson's are plain famous.

Dr. Murray was the chosen one and the one who is widely loved and respected. (http://message.alturl.com)

He will never be arrested because his character is far superior to that of any of his critics.

[RootBeer]

If you want to know the truth about the death of Michael Jackson, watch Larry King Live tonight, but before you do that, read this. (http://betshort.com/raid.htm)

Nobody is ever going to get arrested for the death of Michael Jackson, and I will tell you the reason for that tomorrow, AFTER the Larry King Live show.

Don't miss it !

Thanks for the heads up. I will watch LKL tonight. :thumbup:

[sandywhite]

If you want to know the truth about the death of Michael Jackson, watch Larry King Live tonight, but before you do that, read this. (http://betshort.com/raid.htm)

Nobody is ever going to get arrested for the death of Michael Jackson, and I will tell you the reason for that tomorrow, AFTER the Larry King Live show.

Don't miss it !


I watched Larry King Live and I saw no reason for any arrest.

Am I missing something? This is really beginning to bother me because it's getting difficult to get a straight answer.

[retiredcop]

I watched LKL. I also read the interview. Now I'm ready for the answers.

[February]

Dr. Murray was nothing more than a licensed drug dealer.
I hope he is held accountable and at least investigated.
He should not be allowed to practice medicine any longer, if he does I sure would not want to be a patient of his.
My prayers are with the Jackson family, if it were my som I definitely would not rest until the person responsible for his death was brought to justice.
Larry King's interview nor any other interview can explain why Dr. Murray did not call 911 immediately, why he performed CPR on a bed, why he did not identify Michael by name and why he left the premises so suddenly.
I'm glad he has been exposed.

[wrongman]

wrongful death suite should not be given to DR Murray ,He was a good doctor,I have seen his interview once after Mike death,and from that interview he isnt guilty in Mike death


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[February]

wrongful death suite should not be given to DR Murray ,He was a good doctor,I have seen his interview once after Mike death,and from that interview he isnt guilty in Mike death


Your opinion and you are entitled to it. IMO he was not a good doctor. Doctors are not supposed to administer drugs designed for hospital use in a personal surrounding.
He's guilty of at least malpractice, and then probably manslaughter or second degree murder.

[retiredcop]

If you want to know the truth about the death of Michael Jackson, watch Larry King Live tonight, but before you do that, read this. (http://betshort.com/raid.htm)

Nobody is ever going to get arrested for the death of Michael Jackson, and I will tell you the reason for that tomorrow, AFTER the Larry King Live show.

Don't miss it !

Well???? Waiting for your reason you're suppose to post today.

[ScoobyDoo]

There is something wrong (different) with post 15. I would be careful quoting it.

[bobarr69]

I watched LKL. I also read the interview. Now I'm ready for the answers.


It is an enormous pleasure to share information with a concerned law enforcement retiree.

I review messages with considerable delight and being a criminal investigator, I offer my own view with respect to the preceding comments on this website. (http://message.alturl.com)
I have examined the opinions of others in order to clarify, confirm and/or modify my own.

I have carefully weighed assessed and refined observations in effort to arrive at the truth and fellow posters have thankfully provided a great deal of material to chew on.

As expected, the Larry King Live show on August 20, 2009 was extremely predictable but it was also surprisingly informative. It was predictable because it failed to expose hard evidence to advance concrete knowledge about the death of Michael Jackson and surprising because the show actually exposed interesting details about Michael Jackson's past drug addiction.

In a nutshell, the detail exposed on Larry King Live on August 20, 2009 provided the evidence that is necessary to clear the two Doctors on the crosshairs of the currently irresponsible, overwhelming obsession to implicate them in the death of Michael Jackson.

These are the facts which are apparently conclusive; Michael Jackson was addicted to drugs at some point in his life, he had sought and received treatment and his power of self-control at the time of his death was not in question nor has it ever been discredited despite every effort.

In many respects, the obsession to implicate the Doctors is natural because the fact that Michael Jackson was a drug addict at some point in his life has been thoroughly exploited and it is therefore not entirely unusual to speculate or to suspect.

At the same time, the spotlight has removed all doubt about the fact that Michael Jackson was not, I repeat, HE WAS NOT controlled by drugs at the time his heart stopped beating unless the drugs were forcefully administered by culprits who have yet to be exposed.

Gossip and unconfirmed rumors are currently being used to explain the death of Michael Jackson, and that merely means that unknown facts are being supplemented by circumstantial speculation, to unfairly implicate two innocent men who do not deserve all the unconfirmed gossip which creates the false impression that they areresponsible for the death of Michael Jackson.

Clearly, what happened on Larry King Live on August 20, 2009 was entirely predictable because it was nothing more than a response to irresponsible media leaks, and that will become crystal clear when you read Tom Byrd's post, wherein he exposed details which essentially prove that the Larry King Live production was nothing more than a response to previously aired, Fox News reports.

In particular, to quote the Fox News Reports that preceded Larry King Live;

"Michael Jackson's personal physician Dr. Conrad Murray will be charged in the pop star's death, FOXNews.com is reporting...The anonymous law enforcement official also reportedly told Fox that Jackson's dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein will be charged as well, most likely for medical malpractice. The source said this would not happen for several weeks."

It is remarkable that these unnamed, law enforcement sources are evidently seeking to manipulate the process through unconfirmed, nameless leaks and that is wrong. The transparent obsession to link the alleged negligence of Dr. Conrad Murray with the alleged negligence of Dr. Klein is certainly plausible in the field of theoretical speculation, but it is entirely void of fact in the world of law and evidence.

In conclusion, Dr. Murray and Dr. Klein will never be arrested if the authorities act in a responsible and proper manner, and if they succumb to the pressure that unconfirmed media leaks are producing they will merely enable a perversion of justice which should be avoided at all cost.

[February]

Sorry, but Dr. Murray is unethical. He will face the music.
No pun intended. :smile:

[ScoobyDoo]

snipped

In conclusion, Dr. Murray and Dr. Klein will never be arrested if the authorities act in a responsible and proper manner, and if they succumb to the pressure that unconfirmed media leaks are producing they will merely enable a perversion of justice which should be avoided at all cost.


Well... the LAPD have never really had a reputation for acting in a responsible or proper manner. Dr. Murray won't be the first conviction to follow media leaks. At least in this case, we can be reasonably confident that it won't be an innocent man they send to prison.

imo...of course.

[sandywhite]

It is an enormous pleasure to share information with a concerned law enforcement retiree.

I review messages with considerable delight and being a criminal investigator, I offer my own view with respect to the preceding comments on this website. (http://message.alturl.com)
I have examined the opinions of others in order to clarify, confirm and/or modify my own.

I have carefully weighed assessed and refined observations in effort to arrive at the truth and fellow posters have thankfully provided a great deal of material to chew on.

As expected, the Larry King Live show on August 20, 2009 was extremely predictable but it was also surprisingly informative. It was predictable because it failed to expose hard evidence to advance concrete knowledge about the death of Michael Jackson and surprising because the show actually exposed interesting details about Michael Jackson's past drug addiction.

In a nutshell, the detail exposed on Larry King Live on August 20, 2009 provided the evidence that is necessary to clear the two Doctors on the crosshairs of the currently irresponsible, overwhelming obsession to implicate them in the death of Michael Jackson.

These are the facts which are apparently conclusive; Michael Jackson was addicted to drugs at some point in his life, he had sought and received treatment and his power of self-control at the time of his death was not in question nor has it ever been discredited despite every effort.

In many respects, the obsession to implicate the Doctors is natural because the fact that Michael Jackson was a drug addict at some point in his life has been thoroughly exploited and it is therefore not entirely unusual to speculate or to suspect.

At the same time, the spotlight has removed all doubt about the fact that Michael Jackson was not, I repeat, HE WAS NOT controlled by drugs at the time his heart stopped beating unless the drugs were forcefully administered by culprits who have yet to be exposed.

Gossip and unconfirmed rumors are currently being used to explain the death of Michael Jackson, and that merely means that unknown facts are being supplemented by circumstantial speculation, to unfairly implicate two innocent men who do not deserve all the unconfirmed gossip which creates the false impression that they areresponsible for the death of Michael Jackson.

Clearly, what happened on Larry King Live on August 20, 2009 was entirely predictable because it was nothing more than a response to irresponsible media leaks, and that will become crystal clear when you read Tom Byrd's post, wherein he exposed details which essentially prove that the Larry King Live production was nothing more than a response to previously aired, Fox News reports.

In particular, to quote the Fox News Reports that preceded Larry King Live;

"Michael Jackson's personal physician Dr. Conrad Murray will be charged in the pop star's death, FOXNews.com is reporting...The anonymous law enforcement official also reportedly told Fox that Jackson's dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein will be charged as well, most likely for medical malpractice. The source said this would not happen for several weeks."

It is remarkable that these unnamed, law enforcement sources are evidently seeking to manipulate the process through unconfirmed, nameless leaks and that is wrong. The transparent obsession to link the alleged negligence of Dr. Conrad Murray with the alleged negligence of Dr. Klein is certainly plausible in the field of theoretical speculation, but it is entirely void of fact in the world of law and evidence.

In conclusion, Dr. Murray and Dr. Klein will never be arrested if the authorities act in a responsible and proper manner, and if they succumb to the pressure that unconfirmed media leaks are producing they will merely enable a perversion of justice which should be avoided at all cost.


Very well said.

Yesterday, Federal agents raided a Beverly Hills pharmacy favored by Michael Jackson. Nine Drug Enforcement Administration agents armed with a search warrant spent five hours sifting through records at Mickey Fine Pharmacy for "evidence of improper dispensing of controlled substances," Special Agent Jose Martinez said.

These people are a real joke aren't they?

Everybody and anybody connected to Michael Jackson is now a criminal?

DROP DEAD !

[retiredcop]

Well... the LAPD have never really had a reputation for acting in a responsible or proper manner. Dr. Murray won't be the first conviction to follow media leaks. At least in this case, we can be reasonably confident that it won't be an innocent man they send to prison.

imo...of course.

I don't believe Dr Murray will be arrested for anything. We have been over this before. Diprivan is NOT a controlled substance. Dr Murray could obtain and administer the drug. There are NO laws against it. Merely walking out of a room to make a phone call does not rise to manslaughter.

Dr Murrary was not licensed to deal with control substances in CA and I don't believe he did. There were other drugs in Mr Jackson's system when he died. We know this because of the investigation. The police are looking at Dr Klein.

I still believe Mr Jackson popped some pills, Oxy or Demerol, before Dr Murray did the Diprivan treatment. I don't believe Dr Murrary was told by Mr Jackson he took the other medication.

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

It astounds me that people are so sure that none of the doctors are going to be charged for dispensing drugs to Jackson while all the while patting the Attorney General of CA for arresting 2 doctors and 1 lawyer for enabling a "known drug addict" in Smith's death.

Wouldn't this be the same thing?

Oh and wrongful death suit will be filed, IMO, because this doctor started a drug and left the room. He was not qualified to administer this drug. He was not set up for any emergency that may result in his action of giving Jackson this drug.

Oh and by the way, these talking heads on LKL, do not know the results of the tox reports, sp they might very well be making a judgement based on these same "leaks".

[retiredcop]

It is an enormous pleasure to share information with a concerned law enforcement retiree.

I review messages with considerable delight and being a criminal investigator, I offer my own view with respect to the preceding comments on this website. (http://message.alturl.com)
I have examined the opinions of others in order to clarify, confirm and/or modify my own.

I have carefully weighed assessed and refined observations in effort to arrive at the truth and fellow posters have thankfully provided a great deal of material to chew on.

As expected, the Larry King Live show on August 20, 2009 was extremely predictable but it was also surprisingly informative. It was predictable because it failed to expose hard evidence to advance concrete knowledge about the death of Michael Jackson and surprising because the show actually exposed interesting details about Michael Jackson's past drug addiction.

In a nutshell, the detail exposed on Larry King Live on August 20, 2009 provided the evidence that is necessary to clear the two Doctors on the crosshairs of the currently irresponsible, overwhelming obsession to implicate them in the death of Michael Jackson.

These are the facts which are apparently conclusive; Michael Jackson was addicted to drugs at some point in his life, he had sought and received treatment and his power of self-control at the time of his death was not in question nor has it ever been discredited despite every effort.

In many respects, the obsession to implicate the Doctors is natural because the fact that Michael Jackson was a drug addict at some point in his life has been thoroughly exploited and it is therefore not entirely unusual to speculate or to suspect.

At the same time, the spotlight has removed all doubt about the fact that Michael Jackson was not, I repeat, HE WAS NOT controlled by drugs at the time his heart stopped beating unless the drugs were forcefully administered by culprits who have yet to be exposed.

Gossip and unconfirmed rumors are currently being used to explain the death of Michael Jackson, and that merely means that unknown facts are being supplemented by circumstantial speculation, to unfairly implicate two innocent men who do not deserve all the unconfirmed gossip which creates the false impression that they areresponsible for the death of Michael Jackson.

Clearly, what happened on Larry King Live on August 20, 2009 was entirely predictable because it was nothing more than a response to irresponsible media leaks, and that will become crystal clear when you read Tom Byrd's post, wherein he exposed details which essentially prove that the Larry King Live production was nothing more than a response to previously aired, Fox News reports.

In particular, to quote the Fox News Reports that preceded Larry King Live;

"Michael Jackson's personal physician Dr. Conrad Murray will be charged in the pop star's death, FOXNews.com is reporting...The anonymous law enforcement official also reportedly told Fox that Jackson's dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein will be charged as well, most likely for medical malpractice. The source said this would not happen for several weeks."

It is remarkable that these unnamed, law enforcement sources are evidently seeking to manipulate the process through unconfirmed, nameless leaks and that is wrong. The transparent obsession to link the alleged negligence of Dr. Conrad Murray with the alleged negligence of Dr. Klein is certainly plausible in the field of theoretical speculation, but it is entirely void of fact in the world of law and evidence.

In conclusion, Dr. Murray and Dr. Klein will never be arrested if the authorities act in a responsible and proper manner, and if they succumb to the pressure that unconfirmed media leaks are producing they will merely enable a perversion of justice which should be avoided at all cost.

Thank you for the compliment. I believe we are thinking along the same lines. I believe this will be ruled accidental at Mr Jackson's own hand. I believe there are other drugs listed in the tox report which together with Diiprivan killed him. Doctor's don't have crystal balls. If Mr Jackson took something else and didn't tell the doctor, it's not the doctor's fault.

If Dr Klein had a valid reason for giving Mr Jackson the medication he prescribed and the amount he prescribed, then he is off the hook too.

I think the LAPD may be looking for a connection between the two doctors, but I really don't think there is one.

Mr Jackson was a doctor shopper and had many aliases. A doctor shopper doesn't tell one doctor what another is prescribing. That's the point of doctor shopping.

Dr Murray was licensed to practice in CA. He just never completed the paperwork for controlled substance prescribing. Again, Diprivan is not a controlled substance.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

It astounds me that people are so sure that none of the doctors are going to be charged for dispensing drugs to Jackson while all the while patting the Attorney General of CA for arresting 2 doctors and 1 lawyer for enabling a "known drug addict" in Smith's death.

Wouldn't this be the same thing?

Oh and wrongful death suit will be filed, IMO, because this doctor started a drug and left the room. He was not qualified to administer this drug. He was not set up for any emergency that may result in his action of giving Jackson this drug.

Oh and by the way, these talking heads on LKL, do not know the results of the tox reports, sp they might very well be making a judgement based on these same "leaks".

I don't know why there are those who see the Anna Nicole case as the same as the Jackson case. They are not the same at all.

It's possible a wrongful death lawsuit can be filed, but it would have to be filed in the children't name. Mr Jackson was not the sole support of his mother since she receives a pension check.

What do you mean by qualified to administer Diprivan? There are no laws saying where and by whom this drug can be obtained and given. How many times does this have to be posted?

You are speculating what medical equipment was or was not in that room and at what point in the treatment he left the room.

Those were not talking heads on LKL. They were Kleins lawyers. I hardly think they were going on leaks. They are going by what their client told them.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

I don't know why there are those who see the Anna Nicole case as the same as the Jackson case. They are not the same at all.

It's possible a wrongful death lawsuit can be filed, but it would have to be filed in the children't name. Mr Jackson was not the sole support of his mother since she receives a pension check.

What do you mean by qualified to administer Diprivan? There are no laws saying where and by whom this drug can be obtained and given. How many times does this have to be posted?

You are speculating what medical equipment was or was not in that room and at what point in the treatment he left the room.

Those were not talking heads on LKL. They were Kleins lawyers. I hardly think they were going on leaks. They are going by what their client told them.

in my opinion "They are going by what their client told them"... Their "client" is Dr. Klein.. I wouldn't believe anything he says, at THIS point, if his tongue came notarized...!! You are correct retired.. we are speculating what medical equipment was or was not in that room... However, many details have been reported extensively re the items found in the bedroom where MJ died.. eg. the doll on the bed.. the IV stand and empty bag.. The beads.. orange juice on the nightstand... I have yet to hear any reports of resusitation equipment nor monitoring equipment that was present... Which leads me to believe there wasn't any... IMO

Poochie

[retiredcop]

"They are going by what their client told them"... Their "client" is Dr. Klein.. I wouldn't believe anything he says, at THIS point, if his tongue came notarized...!! You are correct retired.. we are speculating what medical equipment was or was not in that room... However, many details have been reported extensively re the items found in the bedroom where MJ died.. eg. the doll on the bed.. the IV stand and empty bag.. The beads.. orange juice on the nightstand... I have yet to hear any reports of resusitation equipment nor monitoring equipment that was present... Which leads me to believe there wasn't any... IMO

Poochie

Anything Dr Klein told his attorneys is privileged unless he allows his lawyers to speak about it. No one would lie to their attorney and that is my opinion. It would make no sense.

It may lead you to believe there was no resuscitation equipment, but it leads me to believe it is unknown. You forgot the oxygen tanks in the room and the resuscitation bag at the end of the bed.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

Anything Dr Klein told his attorneys is privileged unless he allows his lawyers to speak about it. No one would lie to their attorney and that is my opinion. It would make no sense.

It may lead you to believe there was no resuscitation equipment, but it leads me to believe it is unknown. You forgot the oxygen tanks in the room and the resuscitation bag at the end of the bed.

in my opinion Thanks for the reply retired... I agree re the "attorney/client privilege... However, I do NOT agree with the statement that "no one would lie to their attorney"... And no.. I didn't forget the oxygen tanks nor the bag... But since we have read extensively about the dangers of propofol (diprivan) causing the heart to stop.. (cardiac arrest), I am still curious as to whether a defibrillator was actually present.. Actually, the "resuscitation bag" that you refer to is called an AMBU bag... a pump device used by medics to force air through a mask and into the lungs... "Cardiac arrest" would most certainly call for a defibrillator, and not an AMBU bag... IMO

Poochie

[GentleBreeze]

My bold:

No one would lie to their attorney? Are you serious? How many murderers have lied to their attorneys and were convicted?? For a retiredcop that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

Oh and BTW, the resuscitation bag was and Ambu Spur II disposable bag left there by the EMT's. Remember the EMT's wanted to call him dead and Dr. Murray wouldn't let them. I am sure they used a new one that was not contaminated when they transported MJ for a fruitless scenic trip to the Emergency Room. Sadly MJ was dead and couldn't enjoy the view.

Amazing.

Even attorneys know their client lies to them. I have heard many of them talk about it through the years when they have been on CTV or IS.

Someone would have to be naive to believe a client never lies to their attorney, imo.

imo

[Poochie Pie]

My bold:

No one would lie to their attorney? Are you serious? How many murderers have lied to their attorneys and were convicted?? For a retiredcop that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

Oh and BTW, the resuscitation bag was and Ambu Spur II disposable bag left there by the EMT's. Remember the EMT's wanted to call him dead and Dr. Murray wouldn't let them. I am sure they used a new one that was not contaminated when they transported MJ for a fruitless scenic trip to the Emergency Room. Sadly MJ was dead and couldn't enjoy the view. thank you Jlogan..!! It appears we both replied at the same time re the AMBU Bag... Good post...

Poochie

[Cindylee]

Thanks for the reply retired... I agree re the "attorney/client privilege... However, I do NOT agree with the statement that "no one would lie to their attorney"... And no.. I didn't forget the oxygen tanks nor the bag... But since we have read extensively about the dangers of propofol (diprivan) causing the heart to stop.. (cardiac arrest), I am still curious as to whether a defibrillator was actually present.. Actually, the "resuscitation bag" that you refer to is called an AMBU bag... a pump device used by medics to force air through a mask and into the lungs... "Cardiac arrest" would most certainly call for a defibrillator, and not an AMBU bag... IMO

Poochie

Poochie, I think he had the respiratory failure, which then caused his heart to stop. I think he needed to be tubed to get the oxygen. I don't think at that point the defibrillator would have helped. IMO

[Poochie Pie]

Poochie, I think he had the respiratory failure, which then caused his heart to stop. I think he needed to be tubed to get the oxygen. I don't think at that point the defibrillator would have helped. IMO You may be right, Cindy... However, unfortunately we will never know.... I DO wonder, with all of the reports re numerous oxygen tanks being lugged about and stored all over the house, WHERE Dr. Murray was when he needed "tubed"...

Poochie

[Poochie Pie]

Dr. Murray himself said that he found MJ without a breath and a faint pulse. The last thing he needed is heart compressions and a defibrilator. MJ's faint pulse was a result of low blood volume as he was severly dehydrated from his rehearsal. When he got home Dr Feel Good gave him Propofol which can cause a futher decrease in heart rate and bloodpressure. Trace amounts of Xanax in his system does the same thing. Doing compressions on a person in that condition would most likely cause the heart to stop completely as there was not enough blood volume to pump. When found in the condition he was in he needed a push of IV fluids and to be intubated so the heart could then be defribilated if it had stopped completely and then compressions till he was stable enough for transport. Sadly when the EMT's arrived, it was too little too late. There was nothing they could do. MJ was dead and the nonsense at the ER was to placate his family to show that they did all they could to try to save him. An effort in futility. Not in my own opinion but from years of experience in an ER. Hi Eagleeye... The more I think about it, the more I believe you are correct about the "dehydration"... I will not go into the long story of my Father's death, but, suffice it to say he died of "hypovlemic shock".. (which you mentioned in an earlier post).. He had very little fluids in his body.. and not enough blood pressure to even register... The MOST unfortunate part was that in the hours he spent in Intensive care, no fluids were infused.. (another story as well)... Anyhoo... I believe you have hit the nail on the head..!! It appears that MJ was extremely dehydrated, and add the propofol on top of that... well, we are aware of the outcome.. IMO

Poochie

[retiredcop]

My bold:

No one would lie to their attorney? Are you serious? How many murderers have lied to their attorneys and were convicted?? For a retiredcop that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

Oh and BTW, the resuscitation bag was and Ambu Spur II disposable bag left there by the EMT's. Remember the EMT's wanted to call him dead and Dr. Murray wouldn't let them. I am sure they used a new one that was not contaminated when they transported MJ for a fruitless scenic trip to the Emergency Room. Sadly MJ was dead and couldn't enjoy the view.

It still makes no sense to me why anyone would lie to their own attorney. I have no idea what you mean by murderers lying to their attorney and were convicted. Maybe they were convicted because of the evidence against them. It is not a ridiculous statement and I won't argue with someone who attacks me personally.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

GB, Naive isn't a word that I would have used but I know you were trying to be polite. :smile:

If I were in trouble and wasn't guilty the last thing I would do is lie to my attorney and it is privileged. If others would, that is certainly not my problem.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

If I were in trouble and wasn't guilty the last thing I would do is lie to my attorney and it is privileged. If others would, that is certainly not my problem.:biggrin:

in my opinion Good point, retired... HOWEVER... We do not know at this point if the "If I were in trouble and wasn't guilty" actually applies to Dr. Murray, do we..??

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Dr. Murray himself said that he found MJ without a breath and a faint pulse. The last thing he needed is heart compressions and a defibrilator. MJ's faint pulse was a result of low blood volume as he was severly dehydrated from his rehearsal. When he got home Dr Feel Good gave him Propofol which can cause a futher decrease in heart rate and bloodpressure. Trace amounts of Xanax in his system does the same thing. Doing compressions on a person in that condition would most likely cause the heart to stop completely as there was not enough blood volume to pump. When found in the condition he was in he needed a push of IV fluids and to be intubated so the heart could then be defribilated if it had stopped completely and then compressions till he was stable enough for transport. Sadly when the EMT's arrived, it was too little too late. There was nothing they could do. MJ was dead and the nonsense at the ER was to placate his family to show that they did all they could to try to save him. An effort in futility. Not in my own opinion but from years of experience in an ER.

That is not true. There is no way the ER staff would work on a corpse for over an hour to placate any family member. You theory about dehydration is speculation only. Nothing has been mentioned about that at all.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

thank you Jlogan..!! It appears we both replied at the same time re the AMBU Bag... Good post...

Poochie

Do we know for sure how the AMBU bag got there? Who left it there? Is that speculation the EMTs left it there?

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

That is not true. There is no way the ER staff would work on a corpse for over an hour to placate any family member. You theory about dehydration is speculation only. Nothing has been mentioned about that at all.

in my opinion I will be honest with you retired... Though I agree with GB's assessment of MJ during the brief rehearsal video... (He did look the best he had in awhile)... After watching it several more times, he does appear to be a bit lethargic.. slower moving than usual.. and there WAS a statement made by the Director or one of the crew that was there that he was so into the rehearsal that he didn't even stop once for a "bottle of water"... hmmmm... I agree with Eagleeye.. I believe he WAS severely dehydrated... IMO

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Good point, retired... HOWEVER... We do not know at this point if the "If I were in trouble and wasn't guilty" actually applies to Dr. Murray, do we..??

Poochie

Does it really matter? I was simply replying to a poster who called the attorneys on LKL talking heads when they were not that at all. They were the attorneys for Dr Klein and in the loop much more than mere talking heads.

By the way, even if I were guilty of something the last thing I would do is lie to the attorney who is going to defend me. That attorney needs to know everything to figure out the best means of defense and have no surprises when examining witnesses in the trial.

Do you really think all defense attorneys think their clients are innocent? GMAB



in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I will be honest with you retired... Though I agree with GB's assessment of MJ during the brief rehearsal video... (He did look the best he had in awhile)... After watching it several more times, he does appear to be a bit lethargic.. slower moving than usual.. and there WAS a statement made by the Director or one of the crew that was there that he was so into the rehearsal that he didn't even stop once for a "bottle of water"... hmmmm... I agree with Eagleeye.. I believe he WAS severely dehydrated... IMO

Poochie

And I don't. A doctor would known that. Besides, he could of very well been drinking plenty after the rehearsal. Don't you think?

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

Do we know for sure how the AMBU bag got there? Who left it there? Is that speculation the EMTs left it there?

in my opinion Since my friend's Hubby was an EMT for 7 years, retired... I have been informed that the Ambu Bag is a "staple" on most Emergency Vehicles.. eg Ambulance.. Still, speculation, in a sense.. which is what most of us are doing with this case..

Poochie

[ScoobyDoo]

I don't believe Dr Murray will be arrested for anything. We have been over this before. Diprivan is NOT a controlled substance. Dr Murray could obtain and administer the drug. There are NO laws against it. Merely walking out of a room to make a phone call does not rise to manslaughter.

Dr Murrary was not licensed to deal with control substances in CA and I don't believe he did. There were other drugs in Mr Jackson's system when he died. We know this because of the investigation. The police are looking at Dr Klein.

I still believe Mr Jackson popped some pills, Oxy or Demerol, before Dr Murray did the Diprivan treatment. I don't believe Dr Murrary was told by Mr Jackson he took the other medication.

in my opinion

I already know what you do and don't believe, and I believe you are wrong in most all of your opinions. I can only hope I am humble enough to not say "I told ya so", when Dr. Murray is finally arrested.

Ta Ta

[Poochie Pie]

And I don't. A doctor would known that. Besides, he could of very well been drinking plenty after the rehearsal. Don't you think?

in my opinion Yep... he very well could have... But I don't think he was.. And, IMO, a Doctor cannot just look at you and tell that you are severely dehydrated... You would be surprised at the amount of Adults who are dehydrated and don't even realize it.. even after NOT spending hours on a stage rehearsing for a tour..

Poochie

[ScoobyDoo]

---------------
True. Even Johnny Cochran said he knew OJ was guilty. imo

Do you happen to have a link to support your statement? Because I don't recall Mr. Cochran violating his attorney-client priviledge, and believe he continued practicing law until his death. TIA

[ScoobyDoo]

--------------

I would like to know what makes your opinions so righteous.
IF murray is arrested, it will end up with involuntary manslaughter.
imo

My opinions aren't righteous, just right.

[ScoobyDoo]

-------------------

i'm sure u can find the info.........u seem to find everything else. imo


Can't find info that doesn't exist. Mr. Cochran never violated the priviledge, and you are incorrect in thinking he did.

[retiredcop]

That in no way was a personal attack. If I choose to believe that a statement is rediculous I am allowed to have that opinion as are you. If you took it that way, I am sorry. Clients lie to their attorneys all the time. You know, the other dude did it. Most good defense attorneys do not want to know if their clients are guilty. If they do it makes it impossible to put them on the stand without getting themselves in trouble with the Court. Yes they may be convicted because of the evidence against them but the defense attorney is there to protect the defendants Constitutional rights not necessarily to prove them not guilty. Especially if the attorney knows that his client is. Basic legal ethics at work.

The first bolding is what they say to the cops not their defense attorneys IMO.

The second bolding has to do with defense attorneys never put their clients on the stand and if the client insists it usually is against the attorneys advise. imo

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Yep... he very well could have... But I don't think he was.. And, IMO, a Doctor cannot just look at you and tell that you are severely dehydrated... You would be surprised at the amount of Adults who are dehydrated and don't even realize it.. even after NOT spending hours on a stage rehearsing for a tour..

Poochie

Unlike you who can look at a video and determine he is dehydrated.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

-----------------

Does it make u happy to tell posters that they r incorrect or that they dont know what they r talking about?
He did say it whether u believe it or not. imo


No Buzzzzzzzz, he didn't say it and thats why you can't back it up with a link. But please feel free to continue thinking the way you do, as it makes me neither happy or unhappy.

[Firehead11]

---------------
True. Even Johnny Cochran said he knew OJ was guilty. imo

Have a link? Because I read his book right after that trial and I saw no such thing.

[Firehead11]

Again, little do you know. It is done in the ER frequently for the benefit of the family. And again, have a nice day. :smile:

I said the same thing a few days ago and it wasn't believed. I don't like banging my head up against a brick wall so I will wait for the autopsy and tox reports to be released.

[ScoobyDoo]

The first bolding is what they say to the cops not their defense attorneys IMO.

The second bolding has to do with defense attorneys never put their clients on the stand and if the client insists it usually is against the attorneys advise. imo

in my opinion


How would you know what all defense attorneys do? How can you say that a defense attorney NEVER does something and expect people to take you seriously?

[ScoobyDoo]

----------------

just because you posts links, do u think it makes it right? most of the links u post is all rumors.............no facts. so if u want to go on believing everything u read is facts, then go right ahead. u living in a fools paradise. imo


I prefer a fools paradise, than the land of make believe.

imo...of course.

[retiredcop]

Of course, Jackson was dehydrated, exhaused and put much exertion on his 51 year old heart. He had been living in the fast lane for years so I think he had an "old" body and vascular system. It is obvious how sick, thin and frail he was. Yes, for some cases the Doc's do work for an hour attempting to resucate the client like children, President Kennedy and I would think MJ. Actually, without Tort Reform, they needed to work long and hard on him to avoid any claims of "they did not do enough" or "well, they could have tried this......." Chest Compressions are not done on folks with pulses, faint or strong. Anyone of the millions who took a CPR course knows that. The Defibrillator is used when the heart has stopped completely. IMOO and years of ED experience too. I have read that if thirsty, you are already dehydrated. There is a home test that can be done for dehydration where the skin is pinched and if it stays "up" you are dehydrated. The tongue is dry and eyes can be sunken. Folks feel "awful", dizzy and lightheaded. I still believe his heart gave out. Ambu bags are standard emergency equipment and used until intrabated.

I had to go for emergency rescue training once every year which lasted 2 weeks. This was to keep up my certification as an police officer. We were kept updated on changes. We were first responders to scenes even before rescue arrived a lot of the times. We carried rescue equipment including the defibrillator in the trunk of each police car. We were trained to use them. Once I even delivered a baby on the midnight shift that arrived so fast rescue hadn't got there yet.

I know how to do CPR and when to use chest compressions or just rescue breathing. I know when a defibrillator can be use and when it can't. I was on hundreds of calls watching rescue work over 30 years and knew many firefighters and paramedics as well as the other cops I worked with. I even ate dinner with them when on duty at fire stations and they cook very good meals. I was invited a lot.

I also was at trauma centers and ERs many many times in my job when I had to handle a call involving someone sent there.

I am not a novice at rescue or how ER and Trauma Centers operate.

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

----------------

do u have a link that says he didnt say it? HE DID SAY IT. imo

I am not the one who posted something as fact. You did.

[daniel green]

Of course, Jackson was dehydrated, exhaused and put much exertion on his 51 year old heart. He had been living in the fast lane for years so I think he had an "old" body and vascular system. It is obvious how sick, thin and frail he was. snipped.

Good afternoon, ABC.

Yep. And he was anorexic, which is very tought on one's heart. The dehydration, too.

I think he needed IV's to combat the dehydration.

[retiredcop]

How would you know what all defense attorneys do? How can you say that a defense attorney NEVER does something and expect people to take you seriously?

OMG!! Do you actually think defense attorneys put their clients on the stand to be cross examined by prosecutors??? No one charged with a crime has to take the stand at a trial. Don't you even know that? I guess you don't.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I am not the one who posted something as fact. You did.

:w00t:And if Johnny DIDN'T say it and imo he didn't, then how can you be expected to prove something he never said??????????????

Oh MY! LMBO!

imo

[daniel green]

Yep... he very well could have... But I don't think he was.. And, IMO, a Doctor cannot just look at you and tell that you are severely dehydrated... snipped

They can just by pinching the skin and looking in the patient's mouth. All it takes.

[retiredcop]

-----------

I admire u, Cop. U along with all the LE and firefighters r the real heros. It makes me sick when i hear how friviously people use the word hero on sports figures and pop stars. imo

Why thank you.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Now, now retiredcop.

This thread isn't about you.

Is it? :sneaky:

OMG, Marco. I never thought the day would come that I would say "Good Post, Marco"!

[retiredcop]

Now, now retiredcop.

This thread isn't about you.

Is it? :sneaky:

No, of course not.:biggrin: I just thought I would do it before someone else does today.:rolleyes:

[ScoobyDoo]

-----------------

ohhhhhhhhhh u mean like MJ? imo

I never heard of MJ saying that Mr. Cochran violated the attorney-client priviledge. So, I'd have to say no.

[retiredcop]

:w00t:And if Johnny DIDN'T say it and imo he didn't, then how can you be expected to prove something he never said??????????????

Oh MY! LMBO!

imo

He did say it. I remember that. I was surprised.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

They can just by pinching the skin and looking in the patient's mouth. All it takes.


Too bad Dr. Murray didn't know that.

[retiredcop]

OMG, Marco. I never thought the day would come that I would say "Good Post, Marco"!

Don't get to excited:biggrin:

[daniel green]

What you don't understand about the law cop is that if a client has admitted to the defense attorney that he/she is guilty and the attorney has direct evidence of that, said attorney must recuse himself if his client insists on taking the stand or the attorney would be suborning perjury and would be sanctioned by the court as well as the Bar Association. This comes as a matter of fact since I just got off the phone with my attorney who is a personal friend as well. Yea, I know it is Saturday.

No way. It really just doesn't happen like that. My ex husband is a criminal atty and I have worked in court since 1978 and I know, for a fact, that attys WANT to know what his/her client did so that he/she avoids pitfalls.

My ex, in fact, had a standard line he asks all clients--"tell me where the problems are."

Attys just cannot elicit perjury is all.

[retiredcop]

What you don't understand about the law cop is that if a client has admitted to the defense attorney that he/she is guilty and the attorney has direct evidence of that, said attorney must recuse himself if his client insists on taking the stand or the attorney would be suborning perjury and would be sanctioned by the court as well as the Bar Association. This comes as a matter of fact since I just got off the phone with my attorney who is a personal friend as well. Yea, I know it is Saturday.

If that's the case, not very many people would have defense attorneys. LOL The attorney can ask the judge to be reused, but it hardly ever works.

In this country everyone is entitled to an attorney.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

If that's the case, not very many people would have defense attorneys. snipped

For real!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

[daniel green]

Buzzzzzzzzzzz--so did atty Ken Spaulding.

[ScoobyDoo]

------------------

i'm glad i'm not the only one who heard it.
imo

I bet you are! In the words of Michael Jackson "You are Not Alone".

[daniel green]

------------

thanks Daniel for reminding me. imo

No problem.

It's beyond silly to think that someone's atty could not think that a client is/was guilty of the crime without breaking atty/client privilege. :rolleyes:

[ScoobyDoo]

--------------

I never thought i would see the day that u would say Good Post to
Landshark. Hi Shark......how ya been? long time no talk.


Thats so funny, and I bet Marco knows why its so funny.

[retiredcop]

--------------

u r absolutely right. imo

Me three. Absolutely right.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

OMG I never told you anything of the sort. Go ahead and say what you want. You have me mixed up with someone else. I don't even know who you are.

in my opinion

Google is our friend.

imo...of course.

[retiredcop]

Google is our friend.

imo...of course.

Not this time dear. That profile is not me. Just someone with the same nic.:tonguewag:

Now can we get back on topic??

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Not this time dear. That profile is not me. Just someone with the same nic.:tonguewag:

Now can we get back on topic??

in my opinion

I don't even know what you are talking about, but find it odd that you would bring it up again some 4 hours later.

By the way: Yes I think there will be a wrongful death suit, but not until after the criminal trial.
:smile:

[GentleBreeze]

He did say it. I remember that. I was surprised.

in my opinion

Then there should certainly be a big ticket news item about it IF he did say it. Do you have a link where it shows he did say it because every time I heard him speak of it he said he thought OJ was innocent.

Who did he say it to and when?

Imo

[ScoobyDoo]

Then there should certainly be a big ticket news item about it IF he did say it. Do you have a link where it shows he did say it because every time I heard him speak of it he said he thought OJ was innocent.

Who did he say it to and when?

Imo


Apparently he said it in confidence to Buzzzzzzz, RetiredCop, and DG, but no one else.

[GentleBreeze]

No problem.

It's beyond silly to think that someone's atty could not think that a client is/was guilty of the crime without breaking atty/client privilege. :rolleyes:

They can personally think what they want to but they can never come out and blatantly say that their client is guilty and Cochran never said it about OJ either even though he may have had his suspicions.

What would be the point of having an advocate for the defendant if they spilled the beans on guilt?

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Apparently he said it in confidence to Buzzzzzzz, RetiredCop, and DG, but no one else.

Aint that sweet of him.

:biggrin:

[sallemae]

-------------------

then a message board is not the place for u. imo

You mean you people posting don't tell the truth????:confused:

[BOZGAL2]

You mean you people posting don't tell the truth????:confused:

You have got to be kidding me.
Say it ain't so. :w00t:

:biggrinjester:

[daniel green]

Apparently he said it in confidence to Buzzzzzzz, RetiredCop, and DG, but no one else.

Oh, gosh, sometimes the info is just a click away. :blush: Thems the breaks when one constantly posts about posters, I reckon.

Cochran by this point was well past ritual. So he dished, off the record, of course. Cochran died in 2005, so, by tradition of the craft, those comments are now fair game. "There's something wrong with him," Cochran said, and he talked about other clients he'd had who somehow managed to persuade themselves that they hadn't done what they actually had done. Simpson was a big star, a hero to some, a talented person. But, said Cochran, "I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sun was coming up again tomorrow morning."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2008/12/what_johnnie_cochran_really_th.html

I loved JC, may he RIP.

[retiredcop]

Hahahaha Well that's certainly that.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

Do you happen to have a link to support your statement? Because I don't recall Mr. Cochran violating his attorney-client priviledge, and believe he continued practicing law until his death. TIA

It would only be a violation if his belief in OJ's guilt was based on something OJ actually said to him. However Johnny was entitled to an opinion, in fact I've heard Shapiro voice the same opinion.

[daniel green]

It would only be a violation if his belief in OJ's guilt was based on something OJ actually said to him. However Johnny was entitled to an opinion, in fact I've heard Shapiro voice the same opinion.

Of course, Unperson.

Dunno how someone is getting JC's, may he RIP, opinion being based on what OJ said to him. :confused:

And I had forgotten that Shapiro has said same thing. I know that Spaulding has.

[ScoobyDoo]

Oh, gosh, sometimes the info is just a click away. :blush: Thems the breaks when one constantly posts about posters, I reckon.



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2008/12/what_johnnie_cochran_really_th.html

I loved JC, may he RIP.


Thank you for the link.

This is what the originating poster said:

"True. Even Johnny Cochran said he knew OJ was guilty. imo"
(Courtesy of Buzzzzz)

I still don't see anywhere in the quote you posted that Johnny Cochran said he knew OJ was guilty, a liar maybe, but he never said OJ was guilty of murdering his x wife and R. Goldman.

[Poochie Pie]

Unlike you who can look at a video and determine he is dehydrated.:biggrin:

in my opinion Nope... never said I "looked at a Video and determined he was dehydrated"... I said he appeared "lethargic" to me... moving a little slower than usual... IMO he was seriously lacking the usual energy and vivaciousness that he was well known for.. These are undenialbly symptoms of Dehydration... (I love Google).. :biggrin:

Poochie

[Poochie Pie]

rehearsals are like that. singers sound out of tune, dancers move slower. they normally save their energy for the actual performance.
michael's rehearsal went late into the night, maybe he was tired?? Hi Franchella... I certainly agree that he was more than likely tired... I would say extremely tired, IMO... which, in itself, would certainly require that the fluid level be maintained to prevent a complete collapse.. Thanks for the reply..

Poochie

[Firehead11]

I really want to see more of the video on the rehearsals. In order to make an informed judgement, wouldn't you need to know how many hours were into that rehearsal video that we have watched? Wouldn't we need more that 30 seconds of it?

Seems to me that in the one that we have watched, he was in time with the rest of the dancers.

As far as the Cochran debate, there were no links that I could find, that stated what was posted regarding Cochran stating that OJ murdered Nicole and Ron.

[retiredcop]

Hi Franchella... I certainly agree that he was more than likely tired... I would say extremely tired, IMO... which, in itself, would certainly require that the fluid level be maintained to prevent a complete collapse.. Thanks for the reply..

Poochie

Are you saying he died from dehydration? Other than that, what is the point of your posts? Especially since you have no idea how much liquid he took in after rehearsal ended. This is a moot point. Unless the ME rules the death a natural from dehydration. This is a red herring.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

Are you saying he died from dehydration? Other than that, what is the point of your posts? Especially since you have no idea how much liquid he took in after rehearsal ended. This is a moot point. Unless the ME rules the death a natural from dehydration. This is a red herring.:rolleyes:

in my opinion What is the point of my posts..??? Why... the same as your's retired... To give my opinion... Let me clarify... I believe he was dehydrated.. And had very little fluid in his body.. Add the propofol on top of that.. and the obvious lack of monitoring.. IMO.. well, we know the outcome.. You nor I either one HAVE NO IDEA how much liquid he took in after the rehearsal ended.. No need for the "Rolleyes".. I'm really a good kid... :biggrin:

Poochie

[Poochie Pie]

People do die from dehydration? The problem is that the electralites go out of wack and in paricular Potassium, which causes Heart Arrythima that can cause death. Did that happen? We don"t know as the autopsy results have not been released. Could it be a contributing factor to the death? Sure. Michael Jackson's heart and body lived in the fast lane for years. Suddenly, he is putting more pressure on the heart and body by "rehearsing" for hours although it is clear from the video, to me, that he was moving very slowly and awkward and looked exhausted. Yes, it was "in time" but the other dancers are doing all the work and he is doing a few of the "moves", in my opinion. And what was those "flapping arms moves around the guitarist"? Actually, its a discussion board. Thank you, ABC...!! I thought I was making my point quite well... apparently not to everyone... LOL.. You seemed to pick up on it rather quickly... :biggrin:

Poochie

[retiredcop]

I always agreed on his being lethargic in the rehearsal video. The flapping arms were very noticeable to me. I had even made a post as to the music must of had a slow motion tempo when lambasted from posters saying he looked nothing but wonderful and in perfect conditions. Even his face in the end looked as though he was having trouble breathing. Poochie, weren't you one of the posters who thought he looked good in that video?

This dehydration theory is new to the equation and we don't know if it played into his death.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Thank you, ABC...!! I thought I was making my point quite well... apparently not to everyone... LOL.. You seemed to pick up on it rather quickly... :biggrin:

Poochie

This dehydration theory was brought up to again bash Dr Murray for not knowing Mr Jackson was dehydrated and giving him Diprivan anyway killing him.

No, I do not believe that at all.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

People do die from dehydration? The problem is that the electralites go out of wack and in paricular Potassium, which causes Heart Arrythima that can cause death. Did that happen? We don"t know as the autopsy results have not been released. Could it be a contributing factor to the death? Sure. Michael Jackson's heart and body lived in the fast lane for years. Suddenly, he is putting more pressure on the heart and body by "rehearsing" for hours although it is clear from the video, to me, that he was moving very slowly and awkward and looked exhausted and lethargic. Yes, it was "in time" but the other dancers are doing all the work and he is doing a few of the "moves", in my opinion. And what was those "flapping arms moves around the guitarist"? Actually, its a discussion board.

You see, I agree with you on that video. I said the same things about it from the beginning. As to the dehydration we simply don't know. It is just another theory. I never said this was not a discussion board.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

I always agreed on his being lethargic in the rehearsal video. The flapping arms were very noticeable to me. I had even made a post as to the music must of had a slow motion tempo when lambasted from posters saying he looked nothing but wonderful and in perfect conditions. Even his face in the end looked as though he was having trouble breathing. Poochie, weren't you one of the posters who thought he looked good in that video?

This dehydration theory is new to the equation and we don't know if it played into his death.

in my opinion Correct.. we don't know if it played into his Death, retired... And YES... I was one of the posters who "thought he looked good in that video"... but NOT "wonderful and in perfect condition"... LOL

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Not me. I am in complete sympathy with Dr Murray and don't believe for a second that he has any "involvement" with Michael's heart quitting on him. Michael Jackson did what he wanted, when he wanted and listened to noone. The dehydration could have sent him into fatal heart arrythemias and no involvement with Diprivan at all. I think the Diprivan theories are as Sherm Adams always said "Horse Hockey".

Yes, I thought we were thinking the same thing. Thanks.:smile:

in my opinion

PS I do appreciate your medical knowledge. You are much more knowledgeable in that field than I am.

[Poochie Pie]

This dehydration theory was brought up to again bash Dr Murray for not knowing Mr Jackson was dehydrated and giving him Diprivan anyway killing him.

No, I do not believe that at all.

in my opinion Retired, I will repeat what I had posted before re "hypovolemic shock" and death resulting from it.. It is what my father died from.. I am quite familiar with it.. My OPINION of Dr. Murray's actions, (or in-actions) are presented respectfully... It is his behavior AFTER the fact that bother me... IF he indeed found MJ with a "faint pulse", he should have summoned Emergency Services immediately.. NOT run around looking for the Chef.. nor claiming he couldn't find a phone that worked, nor that he didn't know the Adress where he was.. (his own words).. Agree..??

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Everything I know about law enforcement comes watching "Law and Order", "NYPD Blue", etc but love the cops shows, starting with Joe Friday. I am in total support of Sgt. Crowley and the Cambridge Police Department, too.

Wow, all I can say now is:wub:

Sorry about my inner snark yesterday and tooting my own horn. LOL
I was just looking after the Doc.

[Poochie Pie]

Everything I know about law enforcement comes watching "Law and Order", "NYPD Blue", etc but love the cops shows, starting with Joe Friday. I am in total support of Sgt. Crowley and the Cambridge Police Department, too for arresting a guy who got in his face. Wow...!! A poster after my own heart.. LOL.. I have been a Law & Order fan almost since it's beginning... And I LOVED Joe Friday... :biggrin:

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Retired, I will repeat what I had posted before re "hypovolemic shock" and death resulting from it.. It is what my father died from.. I am quite familiar with it.. My OPINION of Dr. Murray's actions, (or in-actions) are presented respectfully... It is his behavior AFTER the fact that bother me... IF he indeed found MJ with a "faint pulse", he should have summoned Emergency Services immediately.. NOT run around looking for the Chef.. nor claiming he couldn't find a phone that worked, nor that he didn't know the Adress where he was.. (his own words).. Agree..??

Poochie

Pooch,

I don't think a 30 minuet delay is all that much. He was trying to revive him and even when looking for a phone someone else could have been in there breathing for him. We really don't know what was happening in that room. It must have been a total shock to anyone there and chaos. I lived in my new house a full two weeks before I had my address and phone number memorized. I don't know my friends exact addresses to call 911 even though I drive there. Come on about that.

As far as dehydration, of course it could have played a part, but I think he was probably hydrated again before given the Diprivan Do we know how the Diprivan was even given? What time it was started? What time it ended? What was in that empty bag? I don't think it was filled with only Diprivan, do you?

My father was injured in the emergency room so I know where you're coming from. You have to keep a close eye on relatives even in a hospital.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

Pooch,

I don't think a 30 minuet delay is all that much. He was trying to revive him and even when looking for a phone someone else could have been in there breathing for him. We really don't know what was happening in that room. It must have been a total shock to anyone there and chaos. I lived in my new house a full two weeks before I had my address and phone number memorized. I don't know my friends exact addresses to call 911 even though I drive there. Come on about that.

As far as dehydration, of course it could have played a part, but I think he was probably hydrated again before given the Diprivan Do we know how the Diprivan was even given? What time it was started? What time it ended? What was in that empty bag? I don't think it was filled with only Diprivan, do you?

My father was injured in the emergency room so I know where you're coming from. You have to keep a close eye on relatives even in a hospital.

in my opinion awwww.. thanks for the nice reply retired... The "not knowing the Address" is still a stickler for me..!! I feel sure that if he had just grabbed a phone and yelled "Send an Ambulance to Michael Jackson's residence" it might have made a difference... Even the small town that I live in, if we dial 911, our address immediately pops up on the screen.. I would think that in the area MJ resided, all of the addresses are registered with the EOC.. Anyhoo.. You are correct.. You DO have to keep a close eye on relatives even in a Hospital... Unfortunately, I failed miserably with my Father.. But, hindsight is 20/20... I learned the hard way that mistakes ARE made.. IMO

Poochie

[GentleBreeze]

Correct.. we don't know if it played into his Death, retired... And YES... I was one of the posters who "thought he looked good in that video"... but NOT "wonderful and in perfect condition"... LOL

Poochie

One of the most important factors to me is none of us know the order of the rehearsal short clip we have seen. Was it the first one, the sixth one or the 12th song/dance routine? All we have been told is he ran through 11 or 12 dance and song routines that night.

If the one seen was closer at the end of the night then I can certainly understand him becoming a little tired. After all he was 50 years old not 30.

I agree, I thought MJ looked good and I think AEG saved the greatest moments for the movie.

imo

[retiredcop]

One of the most important factors to me is none of us know the order of the rehearsal short clip we have seen. Was it the first one, the sixth one or the 12th song/dance routine? All we have been told is he ran through 11 or 12 dance and song routines that night.

If the one seen was closer at the end of the night then I can certainly understand him becoming a little tired. After all he was 50 years old not 30.

I agree, I thought MJ looked good and I think AEG saved the greatest moments for the movie.

imo

IIRC wasn't it said that was the last song of the night?

[retiredcop]

awwww.. thanks for the nice reply retired... The "not knowing the Address" is still a stickler for me..!! I feel sure that if he had just grabbed a phone and yelled "Send an Ambulance to Michael Jackson's residence" it might have made a difference... Even the small town that I live in, if we dial 911, our address immediately pops up on the screen.. I would think that in the area MJ resided, all of the addresses are registered with the EOC.. Anyhoo.. You are correct.. You DO have to keep a close eye on relatives even in a Hospital... Unfortunately, I failed miserably with my Father.. But, hindsight is 20/20... I learned the hard way that mistakes ARE made.. IMO

Poochie

Yes, even after over 10 years I suffer from guilt feelings over my father. I should have stayed there instead of leaving for a few hours.

Yes, If they have an EOC system it should show the address. It wouldn't have worked saying just send them to Michael Jackson's house because he was renting. Not everyone keeps up with where he lives. A cell phone wouldn't have given the address either. Obviously there weren't many phones connected in that rental since one was not in the room where Mr Jackson was. I don't blame the doctor for that mess at all. There isn't anyway he would have delayed a call if he could help it. He was trying to save him as well as the ER was trying to save him. Only the EMTs delayed arguing over whether to save him or not with the doctor.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

One of the most important factors to me is none of us know the order of the rehearsal short clip we have seen. Was it the first one, the sixth one or the 12th song/dance routine? All we have been told is he ran through 11 or 12 dance and song routines that night.

If the one seen was closer at the end of the night then I can certainly understand him becoming a little tired. After all he was 50 years old not 30.

I agree, I thought MJ looked good and I think AEG saved the greatest moments for the movie.

imo

IIRC not only was that the last song, but this was a full dress rehearsal meaning every song was gone through that night and supposedly he was on tempo. I still think he looked terrible.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

Yes, even after over 10 years I suffer from guilt feelings over my father. I should have stayed there instead of leaving for a few hours.

Yes, If they have an EOC system it should show the address. It wouldn't have worked saying just send them to Michael Jackson's house because he was renting. Not everyone keeps up with where he lives. A cell phone wouldn't have given the address either. Obviously there weren't many phones connected in that rental since one was not in the room where Mr Jackson was. I don't blame the doctor for that mess at all. There isn't anyway he would have delayed a call if he could help it. He was trying to save him as well as the ER was trying to save him. Only the EMTs delayed arguing over whether to save him or not with the doctor.

in my opinion So very sorry about your Dad, retired.... I did the same thing.... left for a bit...

Poochie

[AlohaRainbow]

*snip*
As far as dehydration, of course it could have played a part, but I think he was probably hydrated again before given the Diprivan Do we know how the Diprivan was even given? What time it was started? What time it ended? What was in that empty bag? I don't think it was filled with only Diprivan, do you?
*snip*
in my opinion

typically diprivan is mixed into 100cc (approximately 4 oz) of fluid, then (in an ICU setting at least) is infused via an infusion pump (versus infusing purely by gravity). the settings on the infusion pump can be readily changed to titrate the infusion rate (to decrease or increase the rate, depending on the patient's response, i.e. level of sedation).
http://workplacenurses.com/id69.html

one way to measure level of sedation is the ramsey sedation scale (or other similar/modified sedation scoring system)
http://www.urop.uci.edu/journal/journal98/SusanKhera/table1.html
----------
i know it's been reported that an iv pole was found in the room - have we heard/read whether the iv pole had an infusion pump attached to it?

[retiredcop]

typically diprivan is mixed into 100cc (approximately 4 oz) of fluid, then (in an ICU setting at least) is infused via an infusion pump (versus infusing purely by gravity). the settings on the infusion pump can be readily changed to titrate the infusion rate (to decrease or increase the rate, depending on the patient's response, i.e. level of sedation).
http://workplacenurses.com/id69.html

one way to measure level of sedation is the ramsey sedation scale (or other similar/modified sedation scoring system)
http://www.urop.uci.edu/journal/journal98/SusanKhera/table1.html
----------
i know it's been reported that an iv pole was found in the room - have we heard/read whether the iv pole had an infusion pump attached to it?

No, I don't think we've heard anything about that. Good question. I don't know much about the medical side of this case. Thanks for the info.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

So very sorry about your Dad, retired.... I did the same thing.... left for a bit...

Poochie

We can't let it get to us Pooch. We learned the hard way. Such horrible memories. I work on trying to forget. I hope you do too. I am also so very sorry about what happened to your father.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

The paparazzi knew where he lived, as evidenced by the flock of them outside his home. Even a 3 year old can figure out how to call 9-1-1. In all the time Dr. Murray spent covering his tracks, he could have walked outside and looked at the house number, or instead of waiting and then calling for Prince Michael to come look at his dead father, he could have asked what the address was. I bet even Blanket could have told him how to make a successful 911 call.

He wasn't covering his tracks. We've been over that again and again but you always bring up the same old stuff. The police aren't the paparazzi. They don't earn a living chasing and photographing celebrities. As a matter of fact, they probably cringe when it comes to celebrities. They have to deal with the reporters too.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

The EMT's didn't argue whether to save him or not, Michael Jackson was dead before they made it on the scene, and they knew it and I suspect Dr. Murray knew it too.

The EMTs delayed treatment no matter which way YOU look at it. They had to be told to continue. GMAB

Mr Jackson was NOT dead. There was still a chance as evidenced by the ER doctors working on him for over an hour.

What about that don't you understand??????????????

You would be the first one yelling if no one did anything and you know it.:mad:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

The point was not knowing the address is not a legitimate or valid reason why 9-1-1 wasn't called immediately. And that it would have been child's play trying to figure out how to get an ambulance there in a timely manner. Not that it would have mattered anyway, as I believe Michael was dead long before the 12:22 pm PST call was finally made.

imo...of course.

Is that your point? I was certainly trying to figure out exactly what it was. He was alive and could be saved or he was dead and couldn't be saved. Geez :blink:

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Is that your point? I was certainly trying to figure out exactly what it was. He was alive and could be saved or he was dead and couldn't be saved. Geez :blink:

in my opinion

I'll make it even clearer for you:

He was dead and couldn't be saved, and at the hands of Dr. Conrad Murray, who will soon be charged with manslaughter for the death of Michael Jackson. He (Dr. Murray) may even be charged with trying to cover up his hand in the death of Michael Jackson, if it can be proved that he called his assistant 5 (five) hours before calling 911 and asked her to move or hide evidence of his crime.

imo...of course.

[Milz]

I'll make it even clearer for you:

He was dead and couldn't be saved, and at the hands of Dr. Conrad Murray, who will soon be charged with manslaughter for the death of Michael Jackson. He (Dr. Murray) may even be charged with trying to cover up his hand in the death of Michael Jackson, if it can be proved that he called his assistant 5 (five) hours before calling 911 and asked her to move or hide evidence of his crime.

imo...of course.

ITA with you there. I know the whole blame cannot be laid with Dr Murray, but he is responsible as a Doctor for his patient and I believe that he failed miserably there and may have even been asleep when MJ needed him the most. They would not be looking at charging him with manslaughter if he was innocent in all of this.

imo

[Milz]

Either way, Doc Murray is responsible (however innocent his time away from MJ) for not monitoring him 100% of the time. It is tragic. Had this happened in hospital ans say for example he stepped out of OR for a moment, he would be slapped with malpractice lawsuit.

I don't think MJ's past drug use is relevant here.

Yup me neither, just excuses and obviously the cop feel the same, so thats what matters imo. Justice will be served and a corrupt Doctor will be given his sentence imo.:thumbsup:

[Firehead11]

Electrolytes typically associated with dehydration are more sodium than potassium. + or- potassium can cause arrhythmia but arrhythmia itself is not a cause of death. It is a symptom that can cause something else like a heart attack. My doctor has had a hell of time trying to keep my potassium up for past 2 years so I'm well acquainted with it.

If you rely strictly on the video, there was no indication whatsoever of an electrolye imbalance, quite to the contrary.

The milk of magnesia cocktail he was given for sleep is by itself enough to kill him if he was not being properly monitored. I have flatlined twice on it in a surgical setting and one's bp can drop suddenly especially if not intubated properly. Had MJ been attended to correctly he would have received some ephedrine in his iv when he got into trouble, and we most likely would not be talking about this today.

This is a death that should not have happened.

My friend is a heart transport nurse in our area and a few days after Jackson died we were talking about this drug. She told me that all she wanted to know was two things, who would be taking care of his chilldren and how the hell did Jackson get this drug. It seems the day before she had to transport a patient who had been tubed and the patient kept fighting the tube, so this drug was used to knock the patient out. BUT the patient was no sooner knocked out and the heart rate would drop, my friend would close the valve and the patient would start fighting the tube again. This went on all during the transport. Very touchy drug.

[retiredcop]

ITA with you there. I know the whole blame cannot be laid with Dr Murray, but he is responsible as a Doctor for his patient and I believe that he failed miserably there and may have even been asleep when MJ needed him the most. They would not be looking at charging him with manslaughter if he was innocent in all of this.

imo

They are not looking to charge him or any doctor according to the Los Angeles DA's office. The investigation is not complete and the DA's office hasn't even been brought the investigative reports yet from the LAPD.

in my opinion

[Emerald]

JMO

Lethargic in the video? The man was 50 years old. Not too many people have the same energy level at that age as they had in their 20s or 30s.

[daniel green]

JMO

Lethargic in the video? The man was 50 years old. Not too many people have the same energy level at that age as they had in their 20s or 30s.

He looked sickly and lethargic. Have you seen the kind of show that Madonna puts on? And the kind of energy she has to put on show after show after show?

[daniel green]

There has never been any indication of her using drugs, let alone abusing them.

[?WudScoobyDo]

exactly. imo lethargic explains some of the opinions I have read.
dr murray is definitely an accomplice in the death of Michael Joseph Jackson. no doubt about it.

The "doctor" will be charged with manslaughter for the unlawful killing of MJ. More than just an accomplice. But I do wonder who else might be charged as an accomplice.

imo...of course.

[desmom]

Michael Jackson died of lethal levels of propofol, court documents show
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/bal-michael-jackson-death-0824,0,5959416.story

[February]

Dr. Cyril Wecht said Murray's errors are beyond malpractice. . on Larry King tonite.

This coming from a renowned forensic physician.

http://www.cyrilwecht.com/about.php

[February]

I have a lot of respect for Cyril but he knows better anyone not to make an evaluation and comment on an event before he has all the facts. Thankfully, Anna and Daniel are at long last RIP.


He has the facts. Michael's medical record the day he was murdered.

[Emerald]

He has the facts. Michael's medical record the day he was murdered.

How does CW have access to the medical records?

[February]

[QUOTE=Emerald;13398721]How does CW have access to the medical records?

Let me rephrase that. Sorry.
I meant to say the records of the medication(s) he was administered and subsequently caused his death was released today. Hour by hour.
Drug by drug.

[sandywhite]

dr. Murray was the chosen one and the one who is widely loved and respected. (http://message.alturl.com)

he will never be arrested because his character is far superior to that of any of his critics.

and now they are relying on a perjerous affidavit and a coroner/prosecutor's report to blame dr. Murray with murder?

Looks like the real murderers are getting nervous !

[Not Telling]

Nope... never said I "looked at a Video and determined he was dehydrated"... I said he appeared "lethargic" to me... moving a little slower than usual... IMO he was seriously lacking the usual energy and vivaciousness that he was well known for.. These are undenialbly symptoms of Dehydration... (I love Google).. :biggrin:

Poochie

How was MJ dehydrated when he had been receiving IV fluids for approximately 11 hours before he died? Someone suffering from dehydration can be rehydrated in as little as several hours with IV fluids...

[Firehead11]

How was MJ dehydrated when he had been receiving IV fluids for approximately 11 hours before he died? Someone suffering from dehydration can be rehydrated in as little as several hours with IV fluids...

Can I have the link that states that MJ received IV fluids, 11 hours before he died?

[Not Telling]

Can I have the link that states that MJ received IV fluids, 11 hours before he died?


Didn't you read the search warrant?

It states that that at approximately 0200 hours, Murray INJECTED Jackson with 2 mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0300 hours, Murray then administered 2mg. Midazolam (Versed) to Jackson AFTER DILUTION, ALSO PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0500 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0730 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. of Midazolam (Versed) AFTER DILUTION, INTO HIS IV. At approximately 1040 hours Murray finally administered 25mg. of Propofol (Diprivan) DILUTED WITH LIDOCAINE (Xylocaine) VIA IV DRIP to keep Jackson sedated after repeated demands/requests from Jackson....

[Not Telling]

Just because there was an IV bag on that pole doesn't mean that he was hydrated for 11 hours. That is a supposition by yourself. Dr. Murray supposedly didn't give him an IV suspension of propofol until around 10:00 am the day he died after he had ingested numerous drugs through the morning which didn't make him sleep. I think he was too wired from the rehearsal. Any of those drugs could have given MJ Bradycardia (slowness of the heart). Symptoms such as fatigue, weakness, dizziness, lightheadedness and shortness of breath were likely present and with the infusion of Propofol which slows the heartrate even further, was more that MJ's heart could handle.

Secondly, Dr. Murray reported that MJ had a faint pulse and commenced CPR. YOU DON'T DO CPR ON A BARELY BEATING HEART. You take the chance of stopping it altogether. Dr. Murray should have recognized the symptoms of dehydration and as I have said here a few times before, given him and immediate push of IV fluids and mechanical ventilation or intubation. Dehydration lowers the blood volume and without that volume CPR (pumping his chest) would do nothing but create a larger problem. If you recall the EMT's wanted to call him dead at the scene. Dr. Murray insisted he be transported to the ER.

This is the last time I am going to reapeat this. MJ was dead when he got to the ER and they only worked on him for the benefit of the family waiting outside of the ER. It is done all the time to show that they did all the could to try and save him. Michael Jackson died at the hands of an incompetent Cardioligist and for that Dr. Murray will pay a huge price IMO.


Read the search warrant....


It states that that at approximately 0200 hours, Murray INJECTED Jackson with 2 mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0300 hours, Murray then administered 2mg. Midazolam (Versed) to Jackson AFTER DILUTION, ALSO PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0500 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0730 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. of Midazolam (Versed) AFTER DILUTION, INTO HIS IV. At approximately 1040 hours Murray finally administered 25mg. of Propofol (Diprivan) DILUTED WITH LIDOCAINE (Xylocaine) VIA IV DRIP to keep Jackson sedated after repeated demands/requests from Jackson....

[Not Telling]

Firehead he/she can't because there is none.

Really????????????????


What do you call this?
http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf

It states that that at approximately 0200 hours, Murray INJECTED Jackson with 2 mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0300 hours, Murray then administered 2mg. Midazolam (Versed) to Jackson AFTER DILUTION, ALSO PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0500 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0730 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. of Midazolam (Versed) AFTER DILUTION, INTO HIS IV. At approximately 1040 hours Murray finally administered 25mg. of Propofol (Diprivan) DILUTED WITH LIDOCAINE (Xylocaine) VIA IV DRIP to keep Jackson sedated after repeated demands/requests from Jackson....[/QUOTE]

[Firehead11]

Yes, I read the search warrant application. Thanks. You seem to think that each time that he was given another drug that another solution bag was used. All that means to me is that the good doctor did an IV push with each drug.

I don't know if Jackson was dehydrated or not. IMO, he looked rather good in that rehearsal video. While his dancers kept up the slow motion march, he did what he was suppose to do. IMO. I think people have to remember that Jackson did not have to march along with his dancers but that Jackson is the front man and could do what he wanted on that stage.

I am very interested in watching the entire rehearsal movie. I want to look and watch with my own eyes and judge it based on my point of view.

[Firehead11]

If you ask me the entire story does not add up but maybe LE are keeping things close to the chest, like they should.

[Unperson1984]

Dr. Cyril Wecht said Murray's errors are beyond malpractice. . on Larry King tonite.

This coming from a renowned forensic physician.

http://www.cyrilwecht.com/about.php

After the Spector trial, I have no respect for Cyril Wecht's opinion.

[Not Telling]

Yes, I read the search warrant application. Thanks. You seem to think that each time that he was given another drug that another solution bag was used. All that means to me is that the good doctor did an IV push with each drug.

I don't know if Jackson was dehydrated or not. IMO, he looked rather good in that rehearsal video. While his dancers kept up the slow motion march, he did what he was suppose to do. IMO. I think people have to remember that Jackson did not have to march along with his dancers but that Jackson is the front man and could do what he wanted on that stage.

I am very interested in watching the entire rehearsal movie. I want to look and watch with my own eyes and judge it based on my point of view.

If you already read the search warrant, why ask for a link stating that he received IV fluids?

I never posted anything that would indicate that each time he was given another drug that another solution bag was used...

[Firehead11]

IMO .... while I believe the doctor was wrong and should be punished... MJ appears to have been a junkie and looking for drugs.... I still believe MJ should be held accountable for his own actions. And the fact that he didn't seem to care enough about his children to give up these habits says a lot to me.:thumbdown:

And you base this opinion on what FACTS? I have yet to see any report about Jackson being high all the time. Basing it on a bunch of posts? Have you read anthing about any long term drugs found in his system? If you have, please list the links.

Oh and Jackson was held accountable for his own actions, he is dead. I don't know how much more accountable than one can be. But somehow I don't think he "begged" to be given an overdose of any drug, let alone the list that this doctor, and I use the term loosely, has stated he gave Jackson.

[Firehead11]

If you already read the search warrant, why ask for a link stating that he received IV fluids?

I never posted anything that would indicate that each time he was given another drug that another solution bag was used...

How much liquid did Jackson receive through an IV for 11 hours prior to his death? (If you believe Murray's timeline) Was it enough liquid to rehydrate him prior to his death? Apparently since Murray did not state that he was also treating Jackson for dehydration, then I believe the point is moot anyway.



How was MJ dehydrated when he had been receiving IV fluids for approximately 11 hours before he died? Someone suffering from dehydration can be rehydrated in as little as several hours with IV fluids... Is your post.

[Not Telling]

Yes I read that but one bag of slow drips of IV fluids with drugs is not enough to sustain a dehydrated patient. He needed an IV push of mass fluids to rehydrate. Does it say that there were multiple empty bags of IV fluids in the room? You don't have to bold, my eyes are perfectly good.

You stated, "Dr. Murray supposedly didn't give him an IV suspension of propofol until around 10:00 am the day he died after he had ingested numerous drugs through the morning which didn't make him sleep."

The search warrant clearly states that he was given all of those meds through his IV starting at 0200 hours....it never mentions MJ having ingested numerous drugs through the morning...

Please post a link to where massive fluids IV push would be indicated for adult patients in the same condition (no history of prolonged severe vomiting, diarrhea or other serious illness that would cause dehydration) as MJ.

[Rayosunshine]

Didn't you read the search warrant?

It states that that at approximately 0200 hours, Murray INJECTED Jackson with 2 mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0300 hours, Murray then administered 2mg. Midazolam (Versed) to Jackson AFTER DILUTION, ALSO PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0500 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. Lorazepam (Ativan) AFTER DILUTION, PUSHED SLOWLY INTO HIS IV. At approximately 0730 hours, Murray administered another 2mg. of Midazolam (Versed) AFTER DILUTION, INTO HIS IV. At approximately 1040 hours Murray finally administered 25mg. of Propofol (Diprivan) DILUTED WITH LIDOCAINE (Xylocaine) VIA IV DRIP to keep Jackson sedated after repeated demands/requests from Jackson....

Uh-hu, and that information came from Murray's mouth? I don't know if I believe it. I don't think he really know how much of anything he gave MJ, am sure he didn't record his actions as he performed them. "Not documented, not done".

[Not Telling]

From years of experience I don't need a link to form an opinion. Severe vomiting and diarrhea are not the only signs of dehyeration. It was said that he refused water while he was working out so hard during his rehearsal. That alone can dehydrate you and the symptoms would not show up immediately. When he got home, shortly after Dr. Murray started his drugs. If you google most of those drugs, they most all cause slowing of the heartrate and blood pressure. The dose of Propofol was the icing on the cake that caused his cardiac arrest. Now I am done with you and this subject. I will wait for the Autopsy report come out to see if I am right or wrong and I hope to hell that crow pie isn't on the menu the day it does.

Of course you're done now that I have proved you wrong... For the record, I never posted that severe vomiting and diarrhea are the only causes of dehydration... The fact that I specified someone in the same condition as MJ, not someone with prolonged severe vomiting, diarrhea or severe illness that causes dehydration proves that I was excluding them, not making them the only causes... BTW...severe vomiting and diarrhea are not signs of dehydration, they are causes...

In my 20+ yrs. of emergency medicine, I have had countless patients suffering from dehydration who were adequately rehydrated in less than 4 hrs. with only one bag of IV fluid to feel significantly better and were released to go home...

[Firehead11]

I think my stating IN MY OPININION to begin with means I am entitled to say what I think.... oh yeah, all this drug use only came up in the last week??? Please.

He's dead because he trusted the wrong 'pusher' and he may be dead, but has he been held accountable for what this has done to his children???? He should have put THEIR needs before anyone elses. My comments and thought have NOTHING to do w/anything I've seen posted here.... again MY OPINION.

And also in my opinion, you don't pay a doctor the kind of money he was paying his for legit medical practice.....

I said it was an opinion. I asked what FACTS you based your opinion on? Nope, the drug use came up 2 months ago when he died. Prior to that was when? Come on you know.......

[?WudScoobyDo]

ABC, If you are referring to me, I am most definitely not a woman. :w00t:

Link please!!!!
:wink:

[Cindylee]

I said it was an opinion. I asked what FACTS you based your opinion on? Nope, the drug use came up 2 months ago when he died. Prior to that was when? Come on you know....... Didn't it first come up after the Pepsi accident, and then during the raid at Neverland? And didn't he at some point go into rehab?

[Cindylee]

Dr. Cyril Wecht lost me during the Ramsey case...he reminds me of Dr. Henrey Lee.

Oh Dr. Lee....I can't understand a word he says.

[?WudScoobyDo]

ita. i'm losing confidence in doctors these days. especially after what Murray has done.

I'm losing confidence in decency and humanity especially after reading the MJ threads.

[sallemae]

If you already read the search warrant, why ask for a link stating that he received IV fluids?

I never posted anything that would indicate that each time he was given another drug that another solution bag was used...

Not Firehead, but from reading your words:

How was MJ dehydrated when he had been receiving IV fluids for approximately 11 hours before he died?


I would think from reading that, that he was continually receiving flluids by IV for 11 hours, but clearly a push after a receiving a dosage is very different. imo

[sallemae]

IMO .... while I believe the doctor was wrong and should be punished... MJ appears to have been a junkie and looking for drugs.... I still believe MJ should be held accountable for his own actions. And the fact that he didn't seem to care enough about his children to give up these habits says a lot to me.:thumbdown:


If only the life of a junkie could be changed by just giving it up, even for ones kids....:rolleyes:


There wouldn't be a multi million dollar drug problem in the U S if it were that easy. imo

[sallemae]

ABC, If you are referring to me, I am most definitely not a woman. :w00t:


You type like one.........:tonguewag:




hope you have a sense of hurmor:glare:

[sallemae]

I think my stating IN MY OPININION to begin with means I am entitled to say what I think.... oh yeah, all this drug use only came up in the last week??? Please.

He's dead because he trusted the wrong 'pusher' and he may be dead, but has he been held accountable for what this has done to his children???? He should have put THEIR needs before anyone elses. My comments and thought have NOTHING to do w/anything I've seen posted here.... again MY OPINION.

And also in my opinion, you don't pay a doctor the kind of money he was paying his for legit medical practice.....


And just think of all the other patients this doctor HAS, the people we trust .......and then find out to late.....MJ trusted the wrong doctor.

imo

[sallemae]

He ADMITTED to being addicted to pain meds previously... and IMO your body cannot tolerate those types of drugs immediately, you build up a tolerance and if you believe that this ONLY started right before he died... okay... that's your right.

I am still entitled to my opinions and I don't have to give you facts or anything... because I can think what I want. Does everyone have to agree with me???? Nope, but IMO as well, he would have never been around my kids either.

So, tell me... what do you think he was paying that doctor so much for those 'in home treatments' for???? :confused:


He wasn't just paying for the treatments, he was paying for a personal physician, one to live with him and to take care of him, that accounts for the high monthly charge of $150,000. imo

[sallemae]

I'm losing confidence in decency and humanity especially after reading the MJ threads.


I feel the same way, it's really embarrassing that I even partake in some of this, it brings out the worst in me. Like grade school stuff, these I assume adults come up with.


imo

[?WudScoobyDo]

Well, I guess than silly me to think that the poor sweet angelic Michael Jackson was taken advantage of and abused and killed by this big bad mean doctor...

snipped

Now I'm DONE.


It is certainly looking as if that is indeed the case. I think Dr. Murray is done too. So..in the words of sweet angelic Michael Jackson "You Are Not Alone"

[?WudScoobyDo]

Okay, I'm not quite done yet... because if my comment wasn't read dripping w/sarcasm ... it should have been. I think MJ brought this all on himself. And yeah, Murray will pay for his part in it... but he didn't do this alone. MJ was just as much to blame for his death.


MJ has paid for his role, now its time for the others to be held responsible for theirs. This we can agree on!

ps.. I did recognize the sarcasm, didn't you recognize mine? jk :smile:

[Rayosunshine]

Did I read somewhere that Dr. Murray gave Michael Narcan? If so, I wonder why.

[Not Telling]

To counteract the narcotics that MJ had in his system that Dr. Murray infused into him.

Oh Dear.... Here we go again!


1) Murray did not give MJ Narcan...

2) Murray gave him Anexate (Flumazenil) which is used to reverse Benzodiazepine sedation.

3) Murray did not infuse any narcotics into MJ...

4) Murray gave MJ a combination of Benzodiazepine/Benzo Derivatives/Sedative/Hypnotic agents/Local Anesthetic

Diprivan - Hypnotic agent - not a narcotic
Xylocaine - Local Anesthetic - not a narcotic
Ativan - Benzodiazepine - Sedative/Hypnotic - not a narcotic
Valium - Benzodiazepine Derivative - not a narcotic
Versed - Benzodiazepine Derivative - not a narcotic


BTW.... I noticed the COD was Acute Propofol Intoxication with other conditions contributing to death: Benzodiazepine effect...

No mention of dehydration whatsoever!

[daniel green]

snipped

BTW.... I noticed the COD was Acute Propofol Intoxication with other conditions contributing to death: Benzodiazepine effect...

No mention of dehydration whatsoever!

Yep. Nary a reference to dehydration.

[tiptop]

I find Michael a different addict than most famous "addicts" we hear about.

He seemed to go a step above Elvis, ANS, and countless others. They seemed to rely on pills or injections they could give themselves. Cobain, Hendrix, Morrison ---- they all seemed to do it themselves. I find it interesting that Michael needed more than the average person. His desire for "sleep" is not only unbelievable but interesting from a psychological standpoint. I feel sorry for him that his talent seemed futile at a certain point because of his endless desires. I feel sorry for his children. But I also understand it seems this "rock star status" and addiction go hand in hand for many. And, IMO, its the many who we look upon as musical geniuses. Its been said there is a fine line between genius and insanity. Wonder why it seems most musical people we deem "genius" are plagued with addiction problems?

[iamthegradua]

thanks for the heads up. I will watch lkl tonight. :thumbup:

it is quiteclear that dr. Murray is justa scapegoat !

[iamthegradua]

If you want to know the truth about the death of Michael Jackson, watch Larry King Live tonight, but before you do that, read this. (http://betshort.com/raid.htm)

Nobody is ever going to get arrested for the death of Michael Jackson, and I will tell you the reason for that tomorrow, AFTER the Larry King Live show.

Don't miss it !

Excellent link, but there will be an arrest/Witchhunt !

[February]

it is quiteclear that dr. Murray is justa scapegoat !


He's an unethical "doctor" and by all accounts an unethical person as well. He needs to be charged with at least manslaughter.
Who ever heard of a doctor making personal calls before calling 911 when your patient is in peril.

[?WudScoobyDo]

Excellent link, but there will be an arrest/Witchhunt !


The only witch hunt that Michael Jackson is connected to is the one leveled against him in a Santa Maria Courthouse. Murray will rightfully be held to answer for his crimes against Michael. Then we can finally say justice has been served, instead of the injustice suffered by the King of Pop.

[witchywoman]

witch hunts scare me