8/19

[Eagleeye]

[/quote]Originally Posted by Rayosunshine
Wonder if Michael had EMD when he arrived in the ER[\quote]

Rayosunshine, by jove I do believe you have unlocked the key to the mystery of why MJ died. Think about this. If he had EMD, which is caused by hypovolemia (lowering of blood volume) due to dehydration, was dehydrated from his extensive rehearsal the night before he died, then infused with Propofol, which can cause a major reduction in both mean arterial pressure and heart rate, along with Xanax in his system which also lowers blood pressure and heart rate, he had no chance of surviving no matter how much CPR was done on him. Even though as some have reported, there may have been a faint pulse, without an immediate push of IV fluids, there was not enough blood volume for his heart to pump. That would also explain why he was cold to the touch. He was dying or very close to death and it was too late by the time the EMT’s arrived to help him. Now, I do believe that the trip to the ER was an effort in futility and just for show. I am now reasonably sure because it was Michael Jackson, that the ER Docs tried what they could for the families sake. It just makes too much sense to me now. I do not intend to argue this point with anyone. I spent way too many hours in an ER to listen to someone without the same experience. This is my diagnostic hypothesis and I am sticking to it. I will be reluctant to eat my crow pie if I am wrong but I will.

[CANDYKISSES]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayosunshine http://boards.insessiontrials.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13376613#post13376613)
Wonder if Michael had EMD when he arrived in the ER

Rayosunshine, by jove I do believe you have unlocked the key to the mystery of why MJ died. Think about this. If he had EMD, which is caused by hypovolemia (lowering of blood volume) due to dehydration, was dehydrated from his extensive rehearsal the night before he died, then infused with Propofol, which can cause a major reduction in both mean arterial pressure and heart rate, along with Xanax in his system which also lowers blood pressure and heart rate, he had no chance of surviving no matter how much CPR was done on him. Even though as some have reported, there may have been a faint pulse, without an immediate push of IV fluids, there was not enough blood volume for his heart to pump. That would also explain why he was cold to the touch. He was dying or very close to death and it was too late by the time the EMT’s arrived to help him. Now, I do believe that the trip to the ER was an effort in futility and just for show. I am now reasonably sure because it was Michael Jackson, that the ER Docs tried what they could for the families sake. It just makes too much sense to me now. I do not intend to argue this point with anyone. I spent way too many hours in an ER to listen to someone without the same experience. This is my diagnostic hypothesis and I am sticking to it. I will be reluctant to eat my crow pie if I am wrong but I will.


Excellent synopsis EagleEye. I still say the ER staff would have gone above and beyond reasonable measures just like the doctors seem to...given the status afforded celebrities. I saw another post last night addressing the measures that must be taken and am going to find it now. JMO

The youtube message from Dr. Murray was more of a detriment to his character IMO than anything. Good grief, to not even mention the decedent is really disgusting from my POV.

[Emerald]

JMO

Celebrity or not, dead is dead. Medical professionals recognize that.

Dr. Murray and the ER professionals are bound by the same ethics, yet it seems they are not being judged publicly by the same set of ethics. If the ER Docs had desecrated an obviously dead body, they should be held accountable.

If resuscitation efforts were made in the ER, there were obvious signs of life when MJ reached the ER.

IMO

[retiredcop]

I have requested the thread I started be deleted. Both threads were started at the same time.

Thanks

[retiredcop]

Excellent synopsis EagleEye. I still say the ER staff would have gone above and beyond reasonable measures just like the doctors seem to...given the status afforded celebrities. I saw another post last night addressing the measures that must be taken and am going to find it now. JMO

The youtube message from Dr. Murray was more of a detriment to his character IMO than anything. Good grief, to not even mention the decedent is really disgusting from my POV.

Don't you understand he can't mention anything regarding the case including mentioning the deceased at this time? Even the little he has said has been discussed by talking heads reading everything into it that makes no sense. I personally don't think he should have made a statement at all.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Bringing this over from last nights thread:

spydernweb2006 spydernweb2006 is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In the Great State of Denial
Posts: 965
I dont know about CA but in FL an EMT and ER/Hosp must by law try every form of resusitation, even if the person is obviously deceased. I learned this thru hospice when my Mother had cancer. We were told and given a huge sticker to put by the phone if anything happned to contact hospice not 911 because they would be forced to do a bunch of stuff to try and revive her, even with a living will. The living will would have to be validated before they could acknowledge it in an emergency.

So for the EMT's and ER to work on MJ even if he was apparently passed on would be normal and customary. To not attempt everything available could leave them wide open to a lawsuit for negligence.

As for Dr Murray, I believe we will see charges of some sort in time. I do not believe MJ died of any natural cause and criminal charges will result from his death.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

__________________________________________________ ___

This is not true. EMTs would not try to revive a patient who is obviously deceased and neither would the emergency room. The reason for Hospice care is regarding not having the police involved when the loved one dies. Hospice handles that. The doctor will sign the death certificate and there is no involvement with the medical examiner.

Once 911 is called and the person is deceased, the police are dispatched to the scene. With Hospice, in Florida, the police do not become involved.

Furthermore, in a nursing home in Florida, and I don't know about other states, when the next of kin has signed a DNR, 911 is not called.

There is no way EMTs or ERs work on an obviously deceased person under any circumstances.

No way the law would make a doctor or an EMT work on obviously deceased individuals.

Furthermore, posters have been saying Mr Jackson was dead for three hours or more. ERs do not work on obvious corpses. He could not have been dead for long at all. There would have been signs of life.

in my opinion
__________________
My posts are my opinion only.

[CANDYKISSES]

Don't you understand he can't mention anything regarding the case including mentioning the deceased at this time? Even the little he has said has been discussed by talking heads reading everything into it that makes no sense. I personally don't think he should have made a statement at all.

in my opinion

IF what Megan Kelly just said on Fox is true, and he is the SUBJECT of a MANSLAUGHTER INVESTIGATION, then yes I can understand why he would refuse to EVEN MENTION the patient he was ALLEGEDLY caring for or the family in any way.

Otherwise, it is nothing short of disgusting IMO. To put a youtube video up for his well wishers is just plain ludicrous IMO. :thumbdown:

[retiredcop]

IF what Megan Kelly just said on Fox is true, and he is the SUBJECT of a MANSLAUGHTER INVESTIGATION, then yes I can understand why he would refuse to EVEN MENTION the patient he was ALLEGEDLY caring for or the family in any way.

Otherwise, it is nothing short of disgusting IMO. To put a youtube video up for his well wishers is just plain ludicrous IMO. :thumbdown:

Why is it ludicrous to put up a youtube video for his well wishers? Besides, the media has been chomping at the bit to hear and see him.
As said on one TV news show, this is the first time we have even heard his voice.

Whether or not he is officially being investigated for a manslaughter charge or prescription violations like the other doctors, he needs to be very careful what he says. That is being smart. I don't think we will see the other doctors being investigated in this case saying anything.

I didn't see anything wrong with his statement.:thumbup:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

MJ Burial Could Cost Jacksons a Pretty Penny

Posted Aug 19th 2009 1:45AM by TMZ Staff

Michael JacksonThrowing a memorial service for Michael Jackson is a lot cheaper when you trade the Staples Center for the more traditional places to honor the dead.

Law enforcement sources tell us the cost of providing police and other city services for the private memorial at Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Glendale could top $50,000. That's like a Costco version of a memorial, compared to the estimated $1.4 million to stage the event at the Staples Center in L.A.

A Glendale PD source tells us the Jackson family will foot the bill for police and other services associated with the service, which will be held on August 29.
www.tmz.com

[Cindylee]

Fox news is saying that their sources say that Dr. Murray and other Dr.'s will be charged this week. Including Kline. Dr. Murray for manslaughter. :ohmy:

[flipflop]

Fox news is saying that their sources say that Dr. Murray and other Dr.'s will be charged this week. Including Kline. Dr. Murray for manslaughter. :ohmy:

It's about time. And good.

[AlohaRainbow]

*snip*
Rayosunshine, by jove I do believe you have unlocked the key to the mystery of why MJ died. Think about this. If he had EMD...
>*snip*<.
what is emd?

ETA - never mind...
i think you mean electromechanical dissociation...
the newer term, i believe, is PEA (pulseless electrical activity).

[Eagleeye]

what is emd?

Electromechanical disruption of the heart which is explained in my post #1 today.

[AlohaRainbow]

Electromechanical disruption of the heart which is explained in my post #1 today.

thanks... see my post #12 - i edited it after i figured it out :smile:
i'm more familiar with the term PEA instead of EMD

[Rayosunshine]

Originally Posted by Rayosunshine
Wonder if Michael had EMD when he arrived in the ER[\quote]

Rayosunshine, by jove I do believe you have unlocked the key to the mystery of why MJ died. Think about this. If he had EMD, which is caused by hypovolemia (lowering of blood volume) due to dehydration, was dehydrated from his extensive rehearsal the night before he died, then infused with Propofol, which can cause a major reduction in both mean arterial pressure and heart rate, along with Xanax in his system which also lowers blood pressure and heart rate, he had no chance of surviving no matter how much CPR was done on him. Even though as some have reported, there may have been a faint pulse, without an immediate push of IV fluids, there was not enough blood volume for his heart to pump. That would also explain why he was cold to the touch. He was dying or very close to death and it was too late by the time the EMT’s arrived to help him. Now, I do believe that the trip to the ER was an effort in futility and just for show. I am now reasonably sure because it was Michael Jackson, that the ER Docs tried what they could for the families sake. It just makes too much sense to me now. I do not intend to argue this point with anyone. I spent way too many hours in an ER to listen to someone without the same experience. This is my diagnostic hypothesis and I am sticking to it. I will be reluctant to eat my crow pie if I am wrong but I will.[/QUOTE]


Eagleeye, great reply. Do you think he could have been flatlined when EMT's arrived and checked, then on arrival at the ER when connected to hosp monitor, showed some electrical activity without pulse? I can definitely see why resuscitative efforts would continue if this was the case. For anyone interested: One thing some fortunate medical people learn the hard way is, never completely trust the equipment you are using, they are nothing but machines and can fail giving you false information - I learned this in the NICU years ago - almost lost a baby -on ventilator oxygen sats low 80's - MD tells family baby is dying - moved baby to another position in prep for surgery (ECMO) and during move baby manually ventilated - oxygen sats 100% - RUTROH lesson learned - ventilator baby was originally on was malfunctioning. I have not and will never trust another machine when the life of another being is in jeopardy. This is probably the greatest thing I have learned in 23 years of nursing.

[Emerald]

Fox news is saying that their sources say that Dr. Murray and other Dr.'s will be charged this week. Including Kline. Dr. Murray for manslaughter. :ohmy:

Why Dr. Klein?

:confused:

[Rayosunshine]

what is emd?

ETA - never mind...
i think you mean electromechanical dissociation...
the newer term, i believe, is PEA (pulseless electrical activity).

Aloha, yes it is now termed PEA - can you tell how old I am?

[Rayosunshine]

Why Dr. Klein?

:confused:

Uh, maybe he wrote prescriptions for MJ's multiple aliases?

This makes me sick, from Feb 25 to May 26 of this year I couldn't get so much as a tylenol from the docs I was seeing. Debilitating pain made it impossible for me to work - I lived in a recliner or bed - by May 26 it was clear what was wrong - my 5th cervical nerve root was being pressed on by the vertebrae above and below it. I have made it my mission to find out who prescribes and will put them in my black book. I was very close to suicide at one point and told my husband, that is when things started to move fast. I'm great now, thank you and need no medication - well, maybe I should be on psych meds, but that's okay. May no one else ever suffer from this condition.

[Unperson1984]

Originally Posted by Rayosunshine[/SIZE]
Wonder if Michael had EMD when he arrived in the ER[\quote]

Rayosunshine, by jove I do believe you have unlocked the key to the mystery of why MJ died. Think about this. If he had EMD, which is caused by hypovolemia (lowering of blood volume) due to dehydration, was dehydrated from his extensive rehearsal the night before he died, then infused with Propofol, which can cause a major reduction in both mean arterial pressure and heart rate, along with Xanax in his system which also lowers blood pressure and heart rate, he had no chance of surviving no matter how much CPR was done on him. Even though as some have reported, there may have been a faint pulse, without an immediate push of IV fluids, there was not enough blood volume for his heart to pump. That would also explain why he was cold to the touch. He was dying or very close to death and it was too late by the time the EMT’s arrived to help him. Now, I do believe that the trip to the ER was an effort in futility and just for show. I am now reasonably sure because it was Michael Jackson, that the ER Docs tried what they could for the families sake. It just makes too much sense to me now. I do not intend to argue this point with anyone. I spent way too many hours in an ER to listen to someone without the same experience. This is my diagnostic hypothesis and I am sticking to it. I will be reluctant to eat my crow pie if I am wrong but I will.


That is very interesting, thank you Eagleeye and Rayosunshine.

How long could a patient have some electrical activity without pulse?

[ellegna]

Why Dr. Klein?

:confused:

Article states medical malpractice related

Murray isn’t the only doctor who faces criminal charges in connection with Jackson's death on June 25. A law enforcement source told FOXNews.com that Jackson’s longtime dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, will be hit with charges related to medical malpractice. Investigators are still building their case against Klein, and he will not be arrested for at least another two weeks, the source said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540540,00.html

[CANDYKISSES]

Why Dr. Klein?

:confused:

Emerald, this is just a guess, but I think all the people who have USED and BEEN USED by the media may have harmed themselves.

Think about it, Jerry Brown has it in for ENABLERS licensed or not IMO. This could present a GOLDEN EGG to show CA to be tough on drugs and I'll bet there are some pretty outrageous RX's that Klein has written for MJ or some of his aliases over the years, but I'm just speculating right now. DR will wind up being a Prosecution witness before all is said and done IMOO. :ohmy:
ALL OPINION.

[AlohaRainbow]

Aloha, yes it is now termed PEA - can you tell how old I am?

:laugh: when i first did my acls training, i learned it under that term (EMD), it just took me a few minutes (and a cup o' coffee) to remember that 'older' acronym

my thoughts are smiliar to yours in that IF the ER worked on michael for any length of time at all (30 minutes on up) it had to be because they had 'something' to go on... electrical activity via EKG but no pulse or blood pressure (features of PEA) would fit the bill.

if he was in PEA, they would want to see if there was an underlying condition that caused the PEA, such as severe lack of oxygen (hypoxemia), cardiac tamponade, lack of blood volume (hypovolemia), etc. and would try measures to correct any potential underlying condition...

i can't see the ER working on him for anything more than a few minutes (mostly to hook him up to all the monitors, etc) if he had actually been dead for hours.

[Emerald]

:laugh: when i first did my acls training, i learned it under that term (EMD), it just took me a few minutes (and a cup o' coffee) to remember that 'older' acronym

my thoughts are smiliar to yours in that IF the ER worked on michael for any length of time at all (30 minutes on up) it had to be because they had 'something' to go on... electrical activity via EKG but no pulse or blood pressure (features of PEA) would fit the bill.

if he was in PEA, they would want to see if there was an underlying condition that caused the PEA, such as severe lack of oxygen (hypoxemia), cardiac tamponade, lack of blood volume (hypovolemia), etc. and would try measures to correct any potential underlying condition...

i can't see the ER working on him for anything more than a few minutes (mostly to hook him up to all the monitors, etc) if he had actually been dead for hours.

How can we know for sure how long they actually worked on MJ at the hospital?

I believe the children were allowed to see their Father. Wouldn't the hospital have the decency to have all the machinery unhooked before they were allowed in?

[ScoobyDoo]

snipped

I didn't see anything wrong with his statement.:thumbup:

in my opinion


I guess he just didn't have it in him to at least pretend to extend sympathy towards the Jackson family.

[Cindylee]

Why Dr. Klein?

:confused:

And other Doctors. For the drugs is my guess.

[ScoobyDoo]

Bringing this over from last nights thread:

spydernweb2006 spydernweb2006 is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In the Great State of Denial
Posts: 965
I dont know about CA but in FL an EMT and ER/Hosp must by law try every form of resusitation, even if the person is obviously deceased. I learned this thru hospice when my Mother had cancer. We were told and given a huge sticker to put by the phone if anything happned to contact hospice not 911 because they would be forced to do a bunch of stuff to try and revive her, even with a living will. The living will would have to be validated before they could acknowledge it in an emergency.

So for the EMT's and ER to work on MJ even if he was apparently passed on would be normal and customary. To not attempt everything available could leave them wide open to a lawsuit for negligence.

As for Dr Murray, I believe we will see charges of some sort in time. I do not believe MJ died of any natural cause and criminal charges will result from his death.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

__________________________________________________ ___

This is not true. EMTs would not try to revive a patient who is obviously deceased and neither would the emergency room. The reason for Hospice care is regarding not having the police involved when the loved one dies. Hospice handles that. The doctor will sign the death certificate and there is no involvement with the medical examiner.

Once 911 is called and the person is deceased, the police are dispatched to the scene. With Hospice, in Florida, the police do not become involved.

Furthermore, in a nursing home in Florida, and I don't know about other states, when the next of kin has signed a DNR, 911 is not called.

There is no way EMTs or ERs work on an obviously deceased person under any circumstances.

No way the law would make a doctor or an EMT work on obviously deceased individuals.

Furthermore, posters have been saying Mr Jackson was dead for three hours or more. ERs do not work on obvious corpses. He could not have been dead for long at all. There would have been signs of life.

in my opinion
__________________
My posts are my opinion only.

I hardly think that Spyder is lying about the efforts made on behalf of her Mother.

[Rayosunshine]

That is very interesting, thank you Eagleeye and Rayosunshine.

How long could a patient have some electrical activity without pulse?

Unperson1984, you are very welcome. I am not sure how long a patient can have electrical activity without a pulse, but I am sure that if someone does have this, all of the stops will be pulled out and every attempt will be made to save the person, unless there are other problems that would preclude this action (such as, devastating injuries that would be fatal anyway, and in some cases of individuals with terminal illness facing eminent death or horrible suffering if they continue to live - rare, but it does happen.

[retiredcop]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540540,00.html

snipped

"Jane Robison, spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, denied that prosecutors had decided to charge Jackson's physicians. “Until police complete their investigation and bring it to our office, there is no way to know what charges may be filed and against whom,” she said."

[retiredcop]

I hardly think that Spyder is lying about the efforts made on behalf of her Mother.

I didn't say anything about lying. Confused would be more like it in reference to how 911 and the ER operates in Florida regarding Hospice.

in my opinion

[Rayosunshine]

I guess he just didn't have it in him to at least pretend to extend sympathy towards the Jackson family.

Scooby, you think maybe Dr. M knows he did something wrong, even though he claims he has "told the truth"? If I did something along the lines that Dr. M did, I would need to be in a padded cell on very heavy drugs!

[Rayosunshine]

I didn't say anything about lying. Confused would be more like it in reference to how 911 and the ER operates in Florida.

in my opinion


I don't know about florida, but I do know how EMT's operate in Louisiana, and it ain't good, believe me. This from my personal experience and first hand observations. I hope some day there will be a law that EMT's will be required to have licensed medical personnel onboard their vehicles - some of the acts I have seen, or I should say non-acts are not to be believed. I only pray that someday I will not flip out and act in a manner that would be totally out of context for me, but time will only tell.

[retiredcop]

:laugh: when i first did my acls training, i learned it under that term (EMD), it just took me a few minutes (and a cup o' coffee) to remember that 'older' acronym

my thoughts are smiliar to yours in that IF the ER worked on michael for any length of time at all (30 minutes on up) it had to be because they had 'something' to go on... electrical activity via EKG but no pulse or blood pressure (features of PEA) would fit the bill.

if he was in PEA, they would want to see if there was an underlying condition that caused the PEA, such as severe lack of oxygen (hypoxemia), cardiac tamponade, lack of blood volume (hypovolemia), etc. and would try measures to correct any potential underlying condition...

i can't see the ER working on him for anything more than a few minutes (mostly to hook him up to all the monitors, etc) if he had actually been dead for hours.

They worked on him for over an hour. That's a fact and not speculation.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I don't know about florida, but I do know how EMT's operate in Louisiana, and it ain't good, believe me. This from my personal experience and first hand observations. I hope some day there will be a law that EMT's will be required to have licensed medical personnel onboard their vehicles - some of the acts I have seen, or I should say non-acts are not to be believed. I only pray that someday I will not flip out and act in a manner that would be totally out of context for me, but time will only tell.

What are you talking about? You mention things like flipping out and how these medical issues get you so upset you have to paint to calm down. Are you ok? Please let me add, you are extremely passionate in this area.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Unperson1984, you are very welcome. I am not sure how long a patient can have electrical activity without a pulse, but I am sure that if someone does have this, all of the stops will be pulled out and every attempt will be made to save the person, unless there are other problems that would preclude this action (such as, devastating injuries that would be fatal anyway, and in some cases of individuals with terminal illness facing eminent death or horrible suffering if they continue to live - rare, but it does happen.

So you think this could last for 3 hours or so?

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Scooby, you think maybe Dr. M knows he did something wrong, even though he claims he has "told the truth"? If I did something along the lines that Dr. M did, I would need to be in a padded cell on very heavy drugs!


I think he does belong in a cell, and perhaps with an iv of propofal running through his veins, and left alone. Something along the lines of what he did with Michael Jackson.

imo...of course.

[Rayosunshine]

What are you talking about? You mention things like flipping out and how these medical issues get you so upset you have to paint to calm down. Are you ok?

in my opinion

I am just fine. I have been in the medical field for 23 + years, I have seen alot and there is much more I didn't see that I should have seen - you would have to have been in my shoes for these years to know what I am talking about. As far as flipping out, it has to do with my son's death and the EMT's lack (complete absence) of care at the scene of his death - they chose to care for his ambulatory passenger, who had a broken arm, while a witness pleaded for help for my son. I have it on paper, a complete narrative by the state police who observed the situation. Flip out? Maybe, one day my trigger will be pulled.

2 years and less than a month to go and I will no longer be a member of the medical profession; I am often embarrassed to say that I am connected to the profession!

p.s. I have come to understand what "going postal" really is.

[Rayosunshine]

I think he does belong in a cell, and perhaps with an iv of propofal running through his veins, and left alone. Something along the lines of what he did with Michael Jackson.

imo...of course.


I agree Scooby, too bad we don't have "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".

[ScoobyDoo]

I didn't say anything about lying. Confused would be more like it in reference to how 911 and the ER operates in Florida regarding Hospice.

in my opinion


Oh...excuse me, I wasn't aware that you worked in Florida in the area of hospice services.

[Rayosunshine]

So you think this could last for 3 hours or so?

in my opinion

Retiredcop, I have no clue how long this could last or if it could be an intermittant event. I'm sure there is some data somewhere on the subject. I was just thinking if moving the body, thus shifting fluids could cause electrical activity to occur. You would think that once the brain is dead and there is no activity at all, everything else would be dead too, but, in the case of the heart, the muscle cells can continue to show activity in a petrie dish, given the right circumstances - and the petrie dish has no brain that's for sure. i may have to research this, haven't thought about it in years. (kind of like, when a person is decapitated, how long can they be aware - it is said it takes 6 minutes for the brain to die from a lack of oxygen - and, the brain is everything.

[Rayosunshine]

This is a pretty good article on pulseless electrical activity and what can happen.

http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/12/552

I hope that works.

[retiredcop]

Oh...excuse me, I wasn't aware that you worked in Florida in the area of hospice services.

Yes, I did come in contact with them in my job. Yes, I did work in Florida.

[retiredcop]

This is a pretty good article on pulseless electrical activity and what can happen.

http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/12/552

I hope that works.

Thanks, I appreciate this link.

[Rayosunshine]

Thanks, I appreciate this link.

You are so welcome, retiredcop. I need to read it fully again and completely too. I knew there was something in the deep recesses of my brain, but I couldn't pull it up (CRS getting bad, you know). Can't wait to retire, before I am too dangerous to work.

[retiredcop]

Retiredcop, I have no clue how long this could last or if it could be an intermittant event. I'm sure there is some data somewhere on the subject. I was just thinking if moving the body, thus shifting fluids could cause electrical activity to occur. You would think that once the brain is dead and there is no activity at all, everything else would be dead too, but, in the case of the heart, the muscle cells can continue to show activity in a petrie dish, given the right circumstances - and the petrie dish has no brain that's for sure. i may have to research this, haven't thought about it in years. (kind of like, when a person is decapitated, how long can they be aware - it is said it takes 6 minutes for the brain to die from a lack of oxygen - and, the brain is everything.

OMG, I never thought of that. I wonder if a head decapitated would be aware.

in my opinion

[Emerald]

From live press coverage, we know what time MJ was wheeled into ER.

What time did Jermaine make his press statement? According to several interviews, he indicated being on the way to the hospital when Katherine told him MJ had died. Jermaine has also said he saw MJ after death. None of the family has indicated MJ was still hooked up to any monitors. As a matter of fact, Jermaine specifically said he looked like he was sleeping.

My point is MJ had been connected to the usual monitors and unhooked with the area being 'cleaned' enough for the children and family to see him. That takes a little bit of time doesn't it?

[Rayosunshine]

Need to eat now, I'll be back later. You all are the best bunch of friends I have. See ya!

[retiredcop]

You are so welcome, retiredcop. I need to read it fully again and completely too. I knew there was something in the deep recesses of my brain, but I couldn't pull it up (CRS getting bad, you know). Can't wait to retire, before I am too dangerous to work.

LOL my brain is taking longer and longer to remember things. I am retired now. Good thing too.

in my opinion

[Rayosunshine]

OMG, I never thought of that. I wonder if a head decapitated would be aware.

in my opinion

I dunno, freaks me out when I think about it.

I WILL NOT be the one to let you know, if you know what I mean.

[Firehead11]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540540,00.html

I know the link has been posted here but since I refused to watch Murray and his "Thank You" video, I found this interesting.

"Because of all that is going on I’m afraid to return phone calls or use my e-mail. Therefore I recorded this video to let all of you know that I have been receiving your messages. I have not been able to thank you personally, which you know is not normal for me.

Does this make sense to anyone?


“This was a total PR stunt,” said former Broward County prosecutor Kenneth Padowitz.

“I think what they’re trying to do is humanize him, trying to make him seem like this is somebody that maybe you could know and this is not a bad guy—that’s what they’re trying to do,” Padowitz said. “And for that limited purpose, it probably was effective….

“Is it a transparent attempt to get feelings in his favor? Yeah. It’s a gimmick.”

Well, I believe that when one gives a patient a drug that could kill that patient and then leaves the room, then he is responsible for what happened.

I was thinking of this last night...."informed". If Jackson had been informed of the dangers, then someone said Murray could not be charged. I think they would have to prove that Murray told Jackson that he would gove him the drug AND would be leaving the room, so that he would not be monitored.
Investigators initially had hoped to charge Murray with a more serious crime than manslaughter — a defendant may be charged with second degree murder in California without the presence of a motive — but prosecutors are concerned that a jury will be unlikely to convict without one, sources said. Unless a "smoking gun" is found in next week’s search, Murray will be charged with manslaughter.

[retiredcop]

From live press coverage, we know what time MJ was wheeled into ER.

What time did Jermaine make his press statement? According to several interviews, he indicated being on the way to the hospital when Katherine told him MJ had died. Jermaine has also said he saw MJ after death. None of the family has indicated MJ was still hooked up to any monitors. As a matter of fact, Jermaine specifically said he looked like he was sleeping.

My point is MJ had been connected to the usual monitors and unhooked with the area being 'cleaned' enough for the children and family to see him. That takes a little bit of time doesn't it?

Mr Jackson arrived at 1:14 pm. Was pronounced dead at 2:26 pm and the statement was at 4:48 pm.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/statement-from-ucla-medical-center-on-michael-jacksons-death_100209815.html


in my opinion

[juliekan]

Resuscitation efforts would have been instituted at the site and continued to the hospital, even if they thought he was dead. That's why you see people declared DOA. The general public tends to think that means that the person died on the way to the hospital, when they were actually dead the whole time.

And someone like Michael Jackson, well they would do CPR on someone like that longer, and even if it was seen to be obviously futile by the rescue team. jmo

[ScoobyDoo]

LOL my brain is taking longer and longer to remember things. I am retired now. Good thing too.

in my opinion


Finally we can agree on something.

[retiredcop]

Resuscitation efforts would have been instituted at the site and continued to the hospital, even if they thought he was dead. That's why you see people declared DOA. The general public tends to think that means that the person died on the way to the hospital, when they were actually dead the whole time.

And someone like Michael Jackson, well they would do CPR on someone like that longer, and even if it was seen to be obviously futile by the rescue team. jmo

Not if he had been dead for 3 to 4 hours before 911 was called. Neither the EMTs or the ER would have done any resuscitation.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Finally we can agree on something.

I know, it's obvious your problem is much worse than Ray's or mine put together.:biggrin:

[Firehead11]

Not if he had been dead for 3 to 4 hours before 911 was called. Neither the EMTs or the ER would have done any resuscitation.

in my opinion

If he had been dead an hour or less, do you think the ER & Hospital crew would have done CPR?

[tiptop]

Has anyone heard a guess as to the total number of times Dr Murray had given MJ propofal?

I wonder because if he had done it numerous time before with no issues, maybe Murray felt comfortable with the whole thing and that's why he left him unmonitored. I dont think he would on purpose kill his cash cow. Maybe it will come out that MJ had taken other things that the doctor was unaware of. Of course none of this excuses his negligence if he did in fact walk away to make calls. But it would make a little more sense maybe why he did it. JMO

[forensicpsy~]

Has anyone heard a guess as to the total number of times Dr Murray had given MJ propofal?

I wonder because if he had done it numerous time before with no issues, maybe Murray felt comfortable with the whole thing and that's why he left him unmonitored. I dont think he would on purpose kill his cash cow. Maybe it will come out that MJ had taken other things that the doctor was unaware of. Of course none of this excuses his negligence if he did in fact walk away to make calls. But it would make a little more sense maybe why he did it. JMO

I hope Dr. Murray is not alone at a time like this. He really needs people to keep an eye on him. :sad:

imo

[tiptop]

I hope Dr. Murray is not alone at a time like this. He really needs people to keep an eye on him. :sad:

imo


It does seem like he has a lot on his plate. Not only this but all his money issues. JMO

[ScoobyDoo]

I hope Dr. Murray is not alone at a time like this. He really needs people to keep an eye on him. :sad:

imo


He will have people keeping an eye on him very soon, as I just heard on KNX News Radio, Los Angeles, that Dr Murray will be arrested next week, and charged with homicide. They need to do one more search. They have not decided if they will allow Dr. Murray to surrender himself, or if they will go to him and arrest him.

[ScoobyDoo]

I know, it's obvious your problem is much worse than Ray's or mine put together.:biggrin:

What problem would that be?

[retiredcop]

If he had been dead an hour or less, do you think the ER & Hospital crew would have done CPR?

How much less? Not an hour for sure. Not without continuous CPR for sure.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

What problem would that be?

Stop baiting.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

He will have people keeping an eye on him very soon, as I just heard on KNX News Radio, Los Angeles, that Dr Murray will be arrested next week, and charged with homicide. They need to do one more search. They have not decided if they will allow Dr. Murray to surrender himself, or if they will go to him and arrest him.

Not according to the DA. The police are not through with their investigation and the DAs office has not received their investigation report yet to make any decisions.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I hope Dr. Murray is not alone at a time like this. He really needs people to keep an eye on him. :sad:

imo

I agree. He certainly looks like he is not taking this well.:sad:

in my opinion

[daniel green]

JMO

Celebrity or not, dead is dead. Medical professionals recognize that.

Dr. Murray and the ER professionals are bound by the same ethics, yet it seems they are not being judged publicly by the same set of ethics. If the ER Docs had desecrated an obviously dead body, they should be held accountable.

If resuscitation efforts were made in the ER, there were obvious signs of life when MJ reached the ER.

IMO

Thank you.

[Eagleeye]

Originally Posted by Rayosunshine[/size]
Wonder if Michael had EMD when he arrived in the ER[\quote]

Eagleeye, great reply. Do you think he could have been flatlined when EMT's arrived and checked, then on arrival at the ER when connected to hosp monitor, showed some electrical activity without pulse? I can definitely see why resuscitative efforts would continue if this was the case. For anyone interested: One thing some fortunate medical people learn the hard way is, never completely trust the equipment you are using, they are nothing but machines and can fail giving you false information - I learned this in the NICU years ago - almost lost a baby -on ventilator oxygen sats low 80's - MD tells family baby is dying - moved baby to another position in prep for surgery (ECMO) and during move baby manually ventilated - oxygen sats 100% - RUTROH lesson learned - ventilator baby was originally on was malfunctioning. I have not and will never trust another machine when the life of another being is in jeopardy. This is probably the greatest thing I have learned in 23 years of nursing.

My bold: Absolutely, an ECG can show electrical activity where no pulse exists. Likely the ER hooked him up to an ECG and found that there was some electrical activity which is why they would have tried to resuscitate him.

[ScoobyDoo]

Stop baiting.

in my opinion



retiredcop
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 984

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo
Finally we can agree on something.

I know, it's obvious your problem is much worse than Ray's or mine put together.

__________________________________________________ _______

I want to know what problem you think I have that you indicate on your post.

[ScoobyDoo]

Not according to the DA. The police are not through with their investigation and the DAs office has not received their investigation report yet to make any decisions.

in my opinion

You are correct. The source was the LAPD, this according to KNX news radio.

[ScoobyDoo]

Your marijuana abuse problem? :sneaky:


Hi LandShark... Long time no see. My doctor doesn't see it that way. How about yours?

[daniel green]

I think he does belong in a cell, and perhaps with an iv of propofal running through his veins, and left alone. Something along the lines of what he did with Michael Jackson.

imo...of course.

Right. :rolleyes:

The death penalty. That's what he should get. :rolleyes:

[retiredcop]

You are correct. The source was the LAPD, this according to KNX news radio.

The anonymous law enforcement sources?

[Unperson1984]

This is a pretty good article on pulseless electrical activity and what can happen.

http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/12/552

I hope that works.

I found numerous medical sites which list drug overdose as a cause of pulseless electrical activity.

I still find it quite odd that a cardiologist didn't have a portable defibrillator on hand, even Disneyland has them.

[ScoobyDoo]

Right. :rolleyes:

The death penalty. That's what he should get. :rolleyes:


Thats the sentence Michael Jackson got as his patient.

[tiptop]

I found numerous medical sites which list drug overdose as a cause of pulseless electrical activity.

I still find it quite odd that a cardiologist didn't have a portable defibrillator on hand, even Disneyland has them.


How ironic. Disneyland was one of MJ's favorite places.

Perhaps another example of the doctor being too comfortable with things. JMO

[ScoobyDoo]

I found numerous medical sites which list drug overdose as a cause of pulseless electrical activity.

I still find it quite odd that a cardiologist didn't have a portable defibrillator on hand, even Disneyland has them.


Thats a good thing considering the two deaths occuring at Disneyland this past week.

[retiredcop]

retiredcop
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 984

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo
Finally we can agree on something.

I know, it's obvious your problem is much worse than Ray's or mine put together.

__________________________________________________ _______

I want to know what problem you think I have that you indicate on your post.

Stop being obtuse. We were discussing forgetfulness and you know it.
That was when you chimed in with you agree.


in my opinion

[daniel green]

Mr Jackson arrived at 1:14 pm. Was pronounced dead at 2:26 pm and the statement was at 4:48 pm.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/statement-from-ucla-medical-center-on-michael-jacksons-death_100209815.html


in my opinion

Thank you. So over and hour of recusitation efforts at the hospital until he was pronounced dead at 2:26 pm.

[Unperson1984]

Has anyone heard a guess as to the total number of times Dr Murray had given MJ propofal?

I wonder because if he had done it numerous time before with no issues, maybe Murray felt comfortable with the whole thing and that's why he left him unmonitored. I dont think he would on purpose kill his cash cow. Maybe it will come out that MJ had taken other things that the doctor was unaware of. Of course none of this excuses his negligence if he did in fact walk away to make calls. But it would make a little more sense maybe why he did it. JMO

Since MJ was asleep on propofal why did Murray have to leave the room to make phone calls?

[daniel green]

Thats the sentence Michael Jackson got as his patient.

Just ridiculous, really. Physicans don't sentence anyone.

[daniel green]

Has anyone heard a guess as to the total number of times Dr Murray had given MJ propofal?

snipped

As many nights as he had been there.

[Eagleeye]

That is very interesting, thank you Eagleeye and Rayosunshine.

How long could a patient have some electrical activity without pulse?

As far as I know, about five minutes after the cessation of mechanical ventilation. However in the case of a heart transplant that electrical activity can be restarted as long as the donor organ has been handled properly.

[ScoobyDoo]

Stop being obtuse. We were discussing forgetfulness and you know it.
That was when you chimed in with you agree.


in my opinion


Actually I was agreeing with the other part of your post.

[tiptop]

Since MJ was asleep on propofal why did Murray have to leave the room to make phone calls?


Another interesting question.........

[Unperson1984]

Thats a good thing considering the two deaths occuring at Disneyland this past week.

Those deaths were at Walt Disney World in Florida.

:smile:

[ScoobyDoo]

Just ridiculous, really. Physicans don't sentence anyone.

You're right, I should have said murdered.

[Unperson1984]

He will have people keeping an eye on him very soon, as I just heard on KNX News Radio, Los Angeles, that Dr Murray will be arrested next week, and charged with homicide. They need to do one more search. They have not decided if they will allow Dr. Murray to surrender himself, or if they will go to him and arrest him.

Odd for LE to announce this considering at this time there is nothing to stop Murray from leaving the US and going to a non-extraditing country.

[retiredcop]

Another interesting question.........

I believe it was said there were no phones in Mr Jackson's room, or the room where he was at anyway. Dr Murray couldn't call 9ll from there for that reason.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Odd for LE to announce this considering at this time there is nothing to stop Murray from leaving the US and going to a non-extraditing country.

Perhaps they are watching him. I know that I heard this on the news, and have no reason to lie about it.

[Unperson1984]

I believe it was said there were no phones in Mr Jackson's room, or the room where he was at anyway. Dr Murray couldn't call 9ll from there for that reason.

in my opinion

I thought he had his cell phone but didn't know the address?

[retiredcop]

Does anyone know who said he left the room to make a phone call?

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

Perhaps they are watching him. I know that I heard this on the news, and have no reason to lie about it.

But without an arrest warrant all they could do is wave goodbye.

[tiptop]

I believe it was said there were no phones in Mr Jackson's room, or the room where he was at anyway. Dr Murray couldn't call 9ll from there for that reason.

in my opinion

Hmmmm, sounds vaguely familar now that you mention it. Also something about Murray didnt have his cell, or it didnt work, or something.

[retiredcop]

I thought he had his cell phone but didn't know the address?

Hmmmmm I don't remember if he had a cell phone. I'm still trying to find out who said he left the room to make a call. If he had a cell phone he wouldn't of had to leave the room unless he had stopped treatment and didn't want to wake him up if he could still sleep on his own.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

But without an arrest warrant all they could do is wave goodbye.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[ScoobyDoo]

But without an arrest warrant all they could do is wave goodbye.


Well.. if that happens, I hope he enjoys his new country of residence, and hope his gaggle of children don't miss him too much.

[retiredcop]

Correcting a pothead is a fruitless effort.

imo... of course. :)

:laugh::laugh: Sorry, I have the giggles today.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Correcting a pothead is a fruitless effort.

imo... of course. :)


Its obvious your nic was intended as a disposable one, so I see no point in reporting you. I have a legal right to treatment as my doctor sees fit. Nothing wrong with that. I am a patient, not a pothead.

[ScoobyDoo]

:laugh::laugh: Sorry, I have the giggles today.

in my opinion

Me too. It must be my high grade medicine.
:tonguewag:

[retiredcop]

Hmmmm, sounds vaguely familar now that you mention it. Also something about Murray didnt have his cell, or it didnt work, or something.

Now that you mention that, I remember something about his cell phone.
I'm beginning to think no one said he left the room to make a phone call.
I think it may have been assumed by posters because he supposedly called those women to take things out of his storage area. Oh wait, I think that was part of the three hour cover up theory. The three hours he was dead and the ER doctors didn't notice that.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[tiptop]

Now that you mention that, I remember something about his cell phone.
I'm beginning to think no one said he left the room to make a phone call.
I think it may have been assumed by posters because he supposedly called those women to take things out of his storage area. Oh wait, I think that was part of the three hour cover up theory. The three hours he was dead and the ER doctors didn't notice that.:biggrin:

in my opinion

I do recall reading it in a few links tho, cop. Here's one:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25927376-23109,00.html

"Dr Murray, who insists he did nothing wrong, told police that he had not faced any problems with the drug and felt comfortable leaving Jackson alone to step out to make calls on his mobile phone, the sources told the newspaper."

There's those sources again. lol

[retiredcop]

I do recall reading it in a few links tho, cop. Here's one:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25927376-23109,00.html

"Dr Murray, who insists he did nothing wrong, told police that he had not faced any problems with the drug and felt comfortable leaving Jackson alone to step out to make calls on his mobile phone, the sources told the newspaper."

There's those sources again. lol

OK, thanks. Yes sources. lol

[Firehead11]

I thought he had his cell phone but didn't know the address?

Actually he gave both reasons for leaving the room.

[ScoobyDoo]

Coroner Back At Arnie Klein's Office
Posted Aug 19th 2009 2:30PM by TMZ Staff

An official from the L.A. County Coroner's office has just returned to Dr. Arnold Klein's office in Beverly Hills to retrieve more files in the Michael Jackson case.

Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter just told our photog he was there for more MJ medical files.

http://www.tmz.com/

Maybe this is the search they wanted to do before they arrest Dr. Murray for manslaughter.

[retiredcop]

I just heard on Shepard Smith, sources for Fox News said Dr Murrary will be arrested next week. Odd this is coming only one day after the statement Dr Murrary made. So convenient.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

I just heard on Shepard Smith, sources for Fox News said Dr Murrary will be arrested next week. Odd this is coming only one day after the statement Dr Murrary made. So convenient.

in my opinion

Thats what I said an hour ago, remember?

[Firehead11]

Do people not look at links? IMO, Murray should have kept his mouth closed. He was/is being investigated for manslaughter.

I think it odd that he is afraid to return phone calls or use his email.

[BOZGAL2]

I agree. He certainly looks like he is not taking this well.:sad:

in my opinion

I would not say that. JMO
At least he is still breathing.

[BOZGAL2]

I just heard on Shepard Smith, sources for Fox News said Dr Murrary will be arrested next week. Odd this is coming only one day after the statement Dr Murrary made. So convenient.

in my opinion

He should have been arrested weeks ago. JMO

[retiredcop]

Coroner Back At Arnie Klein's Office
Posted Aug 19th 2009 2:30PM by TMZ Staff

An official from the L.A. County Coroner's office has just returned to Dr. Arnold Klein's office in Beverly Hills to retrieve more files in the Michael Jackson case.

Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter just told our photog he was there for more MJ medical files.

http://www.tmz.com/

Maybe this is the search they wanted to do before they arrest Dr. Murray for manslaughter.

Wouldn't this have more to do with Dr Klein? Just a guess.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

The source initially said Dr. Conrad Murray could be arrested as soon as next Wednesday — but investigators have decided to execute one more search warrant, likely at a Los Angeles pharmacy, next week in an attempt to gather more evidence against him. The arrest is now expected the following week.

Murray isn’t the only doctor who faces criminal charges in connection with Jackson's death on June 25. A law enforcement source told FOXNews.com that Jackson’s longtime dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, will be hit with charges related to medical malpractice. Investigators are still building their case against Klein, and he will not be arrested for at least another two weeks, the source said.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540540,00.html

[retiredcop]

Maybe Klein over prescribed a medication found in Mr Jackson's system at the time of death. Maybe that is the medication Dr Murray didn't know Mr Jackson had taken prior to the Diprivan treatment.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

The source initially said Dr. Conrad Murray could be arrested as soon as next Wednesday — but investigators have decided to execute one more search warrant, likely at a Los Angeles pharmacy, next week in an attempt to gather more evidence against him. The arrest is now expected the following week.

Murray isn’t the only doctor who faces criminal charges in connection with Jackson's death on June 25. A law enforcement source told FOXNews.com that Jackson’s longtime dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, will be hit with charges related to medical malpractice. Investigators are still building their case against Klein, and he will not be arrested for at least another two weeks, the source said.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540540,00.html

From your link. BTW this is the only named source.

Jane Robison, spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, denied that prosecutors had decided to charge Jackson's physicians. “Until police complete their investigation and bring it to our office, there is no way to know what charges may be filed and against whom,” she said.

[Firehead11]

Maybe Klein over prescribed a medication found in Mr Jackson's system at the time of death. Maybe that is the medication Dr Murray didn't know Mr Jackson had taken prior to the Diprivan treatment.

in my opinion

Can you please list all the excuses that you have for Murray using this drug and then leaving the room/ In this way, I can prepare my answers to each excuse in advance.

Maybe the fact that enabled MJ might be contributing to the decision to arrest him. Or maybe he is the one that supplied the drug and has no leaga right to. Are you speculating?

[GentleBreeze]

Do people not look at links? IMO, Murray should have kept his mouth closed. He was/is being investigated for manslaughter.

I think it odd that he is afraid to return phone calls or use his email.

Imo, Murray knows what is coming.

I think what Murray is attempting to do is hoping to taint the jury pool.

I am sure his lawyer and publicist both think this is his chance to say something before it hits the fan.

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

From your link. BTW this is the only named source.

Jane Robison, spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, denied that prosecutors had decided to charge Jackson's physicians. “Until police complete their investigation and bring it to our office, there is no way to know what charges may be filed and against whom,” she said.

And your point is what?

[retiredcop]

And your point is what?

Do you want me to read this to you? The police have not concluded their investigation. It has not been presented to the DA yet. There have been no decisions made to charge any doctors. Now do you get it?

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

And your point is what?

They have to deny but they aren't the inside sources who are leaking things like a sieve, most likely or they may be but publicly they always deny,deny, deny.:smile:

imo

[retiredcop]

Imo, Murray knows what is coming.

I think what Murray is attempting to do is hoping to taint the jury pool.

I am sure his lawyer and publicist both think this is his chance to say something before it hits the fan.

imo

I don't agree.

[ScoobyDoo]

Do you want me to read this to you? The police have not concluded their investigation. It has not been presented to the DA yet. There have been no decisions made to charge any doctors. Now do you get it?

in my opinion

Dr. Murray will be charged with manslaughter and arrested within the next two weeks. I get it.

[Imperfect4]

From your link. BTW this is the only named source.

Jane Robison, spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, denied that prosecutors had decided to charge Jackson's physicians. “Until police complete their investigation and bring it to our office, there is no way to know what charges may be filed and against whom,” she said.

And since when does law enforcement do the equivalent of announcing ("through a source") to persons of interest in criminal investigations they're about to be arrested? :confused:

[February]

If I were a potential juror and I saw that you tube video I would definitely think the Dr. is attempting damage control.
I have never seen anything so insincere since Richard Nixon delcared
'I am not a crook'.

[GentleBreeze]

The source initially said Dr. Conrad Murray could be arrested as soon as next Wednesday — but investigators have decided to execute one more search warrant, likely at a Los Angeles pharmacy, next week in an attempt to gather more evidence against him. The arrest is now expected the following week.

Murray isn’t the only doctor who faces criminal charges in connection with Jackson's death on June 25. A law enforcement source told FOXNews.com that Jackson’s longtime dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, will be hit with charges related to medical malpractice. Investigators are still building their case against Klein, and he will not be arrested for at least another two weeks, the source said.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540540,00.html

I think they are going to arrest Murray on other charges in addition to the homicide. Imo they have got his number now and he just didn't start being a Dr. Feel Good for MJ only.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I don't agree.

So?:confused:

[retiredcop]

And since when does law enforcement do the equivalent of announcing ("through a source") to persons of interest in criminal investigations they're about to be arrested? :confused:

They don't, so whoever these sources are don't have any information in this case and are not close to this investigation.:shrug:

[retiredcop]

I think they are going to arrest Murray on other charges in addition to the homicide. Imo they have got his number now and he just didn't start being a Dr. Feel Good for MJ only.

imo

Wow, just wow. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

They don't, so whoever these sources are don't have any information in this case and are not close to this investigation.:shrug:


I guess you are the only person close enough to the investigation to report anything.
:rolleyes:

[GentleBreeze]

They don't, so whoever these sources are don't have any information in this case and are not close to this investigation.:shrug:

How would you know that?

How do you know that they aren't all prepared and ready to go but are just waiting for the other search warrant on another pharmacy before they arrest.

Are you saying you don't think the cops are keeping the DA abreast of all of this in detail?

imo

[Imperfect4]

They don't, so whoever these sources are don't have any information in this case and are not close to this investigation.:shrug:

That would be my guess. Any one of us could be this source, since anyone who has followed the case knows there's a possibility doctors will be arrested.

But to tip off Murray about an impending arrest -- Murray who seems to have homes, businesses, family and acquaintances in several states as well as ties to the Caribbean? Makes little sense. I'll go with the official response from the named source at the DA's office.

[February]

I think they are going to arrest Murray on other charges in addition to the homicide. Imo they have got his number now and he just didn't start being a Dr. Feel Good for MJ only.

imo


Excactly. He just got caught this time!

[ScoobyDoo]

Excactly. He just got caught this time!

Its too bad he didn't get caught before causing the death of Michael Jackson.
:sad:

[Firehead11]

One thing that I have noticed is that a lot of the "sources" have been telling the truth. It was a "source" that claimed MJ was dead. It was a "source" that reported that propofol was found in his home and in his system.

Shall I continue about the "sources"?

[BOZGAL2]

I think they are going to arrest Murray on other charges in addition to the homicide. Imo they have got his number now and he just didn't start being a Dr. Feel Good for MJ only.

imo

ITA
This is not his first ride at the rodeo.

[retiredcop]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32473058#32473058

You may find this interesting.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

That would be my guess. Any one of us could be this source, since anyone who has followed the case knows there's a possibility doctors will be arrested.

But to tip off Murray about an impending arrest -- Murray who seems to have homes, businesses, family and acquaintances in several states as well as ties to the Caribbean? Makes little sense. I'll go with the official response from the named source at the DA's office.

You really think he would run? You don't think his attorney and publicist knows he is being watched? I don't even think Murray is leaving where he is staying much. As well known as he has become how would he even get out of this country unnoticed? It would not surprise me if they have security watching out for his safety. His own lawyer said Murray had been harassed.

I think flying the coop may be a fantasy but not reality. He has 7 children in this country. But who knows how many he has in Trinidad where he is from.

I would think that Murray is even fearful when getting out knowing some crazy kook could be out there and spot him. I think he is more or less a shut in now.

imo

[retiredcop]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-19/jacksons-last-man-standing-dr-conrad-murray-dont-scapegoat-me/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsR1


In his first interview since Michael Jackson’s death, the doctor who was there when the King of Pop died, frets about being a scapegoat, and insists that he wants to be exonerated.

[Imperfect4]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.

[Imperfect4]

You really think he would run? You don't think his attorney and publicist knows he is being watched? I don't even think Murray is leaving where he is staying much. As well known as he has become how would he even get out of this country unnoticed? It would not surprise me if they have security watching out for his safety. His own lawyer said Murray had been harassed.

I think flying the coop may be a fantasy but not reality. He has 7 children in this country. But who knows how many he has in Trinidad where he is from.

I would think that Murray is even fearful when getting out knowing some crazy kook could be out there and spot him. I think he is more or less a shut in now.

imo

No, I don't think he'd run. I think LE always assumes POI's will run, which is why we never hear them say: "Hey! Person of Interest! We're about to arrest you! Whaddya think of that?"

[ScoobyDoo]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.


I guess the mob mentality is only ok if its against Cindy A.

[ScoobyDoo]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-19/jacksons-last-man-standing-dr-conrad-murray-dont-scapegoat-me/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsR1


In his first interview since Michael Jackson’s death, the doctor who was there when the King of Pop died, frets about being a scapegoat, and insists that he wants to be exonerated.



I don't doubt that he wants to be exonerated. Don't all murderer's?

[GentleBreeze]

Excactly. He just got caught this time!

Let me ask you something. Pardon if it has already been asked and I may have missed it.

But if Murray bought the Propovol in the state of Nevada and then transported it to California to be used there is that against the law?

TIA

imo

[retiredcop]

I guess the mob mentality is only ok if its against Cindy A.

Who's Cindy A.?

[ScoobyDoo]

Who's Cindy A.?


Ask one of your sources.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't doubt that he wants to be exonerated. Don't all murderer's?

Sounds like OJ when he said he was going to search for the real murderer of his ex wife and her friend.


imo

[retiredcop]

You really think he would run? You don't think his attorney and publicist knows he is being watched? I don't even think Murray is leaving where he is staying much. As well known as he has become how would he even get out of this country unnoticed? It would not surprise me if they have security watching out for his safety. His own lawyer said Murray had been harassed.

I think flying the coop may be a fantasy but not reality. He has 7 children in this country. But who knows how many he has in Trinidad where he is from.

I would think that Murray is even fearful when getting out knowing some crazy kook could be out there and spot him. I think he is more or less a shut in now.

imo

Without an arrest warrant, they could wave good bye as he leaves.

in my opinion

[Zenyatta]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.

Excellent.

[GentleBreeze]

Without an arrest warrant, they could wave good bye as he leaves.

in my opinion

That is not going to happen. He knows he cant move without someone knowing it. In the article it said he has hired a body guard.

imo

[retiredcop]

Ask one of your sources.

Why so snarky? You brought it up. Who is Cindy A or is that off topic?

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Without an arrest warrant, they could wave good bye as he leaves.

in my opinion


Didn't Unperson say that?

[Imperfect4]

I guess the mob mentality is only ok if its against Cindy A.

lololololol.

I predicted that was coming. It's not much fun to be so predictable, is it?

Let's see. Caylee was 2 and living with her grandmother. I don't believe Caylee set out to get herself some Xanax or chloroform or duct tape or whatever tool her mother allegedly used kill her, while her grandparents tended to their own self-absorption.

Michael was 50, and well-versed in getting what he wanted.

If you'd like to discuss the Caylee Anthony case, you can find the forum on the main page.

[ScoobyDoo]

lololololol.

snipped

Michael was 50, and well-versed in getting what he wanted.

If you'd like to discuss the Caylee Anthony case, you can find the forum on the main page.


Michael didn't hook himself up to the iv and administer the deadly drug. Dr. Murray did.

[February]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.

He's supposed to be a doctor. Not a drug dealer. He took an oath to SAVE lives not destroy them.
Michael's death was disturbing and I'm sure 'Doctor' Murray's children could have used some of that 100,000 a month salary for child support that he owes.
He's a dead beat no matter how you look at it.

[retiredcop]

Didn't Unperson say that?

Exactly, and she was right. I loved it so much I said the same thing.

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

Michael didn't hook himself up to the iv and administer the deadly drug. Dr. Murray did.

Michael hired Dr. Murray to hook him up to IV's and administer deadly drugs. That's why he hired himself a doctor. How is Michael in no way responsible for what happened to him?

[retiredcop]

That is not going to happen. He knows he cant move without someone knowing it. In the article it said he has hired a body guard.

imo

He can do exactly as he wants. Innocent until proven guilty. He hasn't even been arrested. He isn't even a suspect. Only a PI.:tonguewag:

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Michael hired Dr. Murray to hook him up to IV's and administer deadly drugs. That's why he hired himself a doctor. How is Michael in no way responsible for what happened to him?


Michael paid the price for his responsibility. Now its time for Dr. Murray to pay the price for his. If Michael wanted to kill himself, he could have easily done that on his own.

[retiredcop]

Michael didn't hook himself up to the iv and administer the deadly drug. Dr. Murray did.

He might as well have. I don't see a difference.

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

He's supposed to be a doctor. Not a drug dealer. He took an oath to SAVE lives not destroy them.
Michael's death was disturbing and I'm sure 'Doctor' Murray's children could have used some of that 100,000 a month salary for child support that he owes.
He's a dead beat no matter how you look at it.

Oh, my. So now we're blaming Dr. Murray for not being more careful in dispensing a dangerous drug to MJ so he could support his children on the salary MJ paid him to dispense dangerous drugs? If Murray had just been more careful about dispensing a dangerous drug, then all would be well? His kids would be provided for and MJ would get some rest?

lol

lolololololol

I haven't visited this thread in awhile. Me thinks I've entered the Twilight Zone. :laugh:

[ScoobyDoo]

He might as well have. I don't see a difference.

in my opinion


I wouldn't have expected you to see the obvious difference. Maybe you can start a fund and collect bail money from all the Dr's supporters.

[February]

He might as well have. I don't see a difference.

in my opinion


The difference is One of them is ( soon to be was) a doctor.
MJ didn't take the Hippocratic oath.

[retiredcop]

Oh, my. So now we're blaming Dr. Murray for not being more careful in dispensing a dangerous drug to MJ so he could support his children on the salary MJ paid him to dispense dangerous drugs? If Murray had just been more careful about dispensing a dangerous drug, then all would be well? His kids would be provided for and MJ would get some rest?

lol

lolololololol

I haven't visited this thread in awhile. Me thinks I've entered the Twilight Zone. :laugh:

Oh you have. No guessing about that one.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Oh, my. So now we're blaming Dr. Murray for not being more careful in dispensing a dangerous drug to MJ so he could support his children on the salary MJ paid him to dispense dangerous drugs? If Murray had just been more careful about dispensing a dangerous drug, then all would be well? His kids would be provided for and MJ would get some rest?

lol

lolololololol

I haven't visited this thread in awhile. Me thinks I've entered the Twilight Zone. :laugh:


According to the reports, the Doctor has never supported his children. It isn't a matter of not being careful, its a matter of gross negligence which amounts to manslaughter.

[retiredcop]

Just a guess? LOL I think it's a FACT!

I was trying to let her down easy.:thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.

Name me one poster that has ever mentioned hanging anybody, besides YOU?:rolleyes:

Yes, it is high time that these doctors be made an example of as they are nothing but licensed drug pushers and pushing drugs to a known addict is reprehensible.

Michael Jackson did not die on the other doctors' watch, he did when Murray was his unattending, negligent physician.

Imo Michael Jackson did not overdose himself on Propovol. MJ paid the ultimate price already but that never means that Murray is faultless.

While you say we should lay no blame with the doctor, you want to in turn blame no one but MJ. MJ did not make this doctor break his oath. He did not make him give him the Propovol and he certainly didn't insist that Murray leave him unattended, knowing that Propovol is a highly risky drug if not administered correctly or the patient left unattended. His standard of care was atrocious imo.

I think society is sick of these type of doctors who will sell their souls and ethics for the almighty buck.

An addict will not say no if they addiction is placed available to them right under their noses and into their veins. The sound minded physicians are the ones that have the ethical responsibility to "do no harm" and Murray failed miserably and no, he shouldn't be let off the hook for that.

And any other doctor who supplied a drug addict with their addiction cravings should be criminally prosecuted as well.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Michael paid the price for his responsibility. Now its time for Dr. Murray to pay the price for his. If Michael wanted to kill himself, he could have easily done that on his own.

Yeah, when he told Murray he wanted to get some sleep he didn't mean for it to be forever.

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

"unnamed sources" ....... HUGE eyeroll.


You don't believe Dr. Murray will be arrested, or held to answer for the death of his patient?

[Firehead11]

Oh, my. So now we're blaming Dr. Murray for not being more careful in dispensing a dangerous drug to MJ so he could support his children on the salary MJ paid him to dispense dangerous drugs? If Murray had just been more careful about dispensing a dangerous drug, then all would be well? His kids would be provided for and MJ would get some rest?

lol

lolololololol

I haven't visited this thread in awhile. Me thinks I've entered the Twilight Zone. :laugh:

I resent your last remark. Actually I resent them all. And since you "haven't been to this thread in awhile" maybe you have not followed all the posters and their opinions, nor maybe you have not read all the links that been provided.

Murray should not have left the room. If this happened to anyone in your family whether they be a drug addict or not, you would be hiring a lawyer for at the miminium, a wrongful death suit.

[GentleBreeze]

You don't believe Dr. Murray will be arrested, or held to answer for the death of his patient?

I find the comment on "unnamed sources" comical since both sides pull links and many times they are from yep, "unnamed sources.:lol::lol:"

[Rayosunshine]

Right. :rolleyes:

The death penalty. That's what he should get. :rolleyes:

Agreed. Some might say it was not premeditated, but with his knowledge or what it should have been, I see it that way. i.e., he should have known what danger existed while administering propofol in the home - crucify him, I'll build the cross with my bare hands!

[Cindylee]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.

You won't find many on here that will put the blame on the one person who could have prevented his own death. MJ. Dr. Murray helped him, but again it was MJ who started the ball rolling. IMO

[ScoobyDoo]

Agreed. Some might say it was not premeditated, but with his knowledge or what it should have been, I see it that way. i.e., he should have known what danger existed while administering propofol in the home - crucify him, I'll build the cross with my bare hands!

It almost seems as if some people think Dr. Murray is a hero for killing Michael Jackson.
:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

I resent your last remark. Actually I resent them all. And since you "haven't been to this thread in awhile" maybe you have not followed all the posters and their opinions, nor maybe you have not read all the links that been provided.

Murray should not have left the room. If this happened to anyone in your family whether they be a drug addict or not, you would be hiring a lawyer for at the minimum, a wrongful death suit.

If I had it happen to a family member I would be at the police station and in contact with the DAs office everyday. Thank goodness LAPD didn't even have to be prompted and started their investigation from the get go. Imo, they immediately sensed something was not as it seemed about this case from very early on and they are still nipping at the heals of Murray on their hunt.

imo

[retiredcop]

Yeah, when he told Murray he wanted to get some sleep he didn't mean for it to be forever.

imo

Mr Jackson knew the risks very well since Nurse Lee spelled it out to him for one. He very well knew it could be forever. He elected to have it anyway. Who's fault is that?

in my opinion

[Imperfect4]

Name me one poster that has ever mentioned hanging anybody, besides YOU?:rolleyes:

<snipped for space>

I think society is sick of these type of doctors who will sell their souls and ethics for the almighty buck.

<snipped for space>



Your little eye roll smiley doesn't feel very ... hospitable ... to me.

Bolded to address. I think society is equally sick of celebrities who are allowed to live outside the law. And I think society is being made sick by those who take no personal responsibility for their actions, and their defenders.

[GentleBreeze]

You won't find many on here that will put the blame on the one person who could have prevented his own death. MJ. Dr. Murray helped him, but again it was MJ who started the ball rolling. IMO

MJ could have not rolled that ball if he had no one to roll it to.....

Murray is the one that killed MJ imo. If he had done as he should have done MJ would be in London now with his children living in Rod Stewart's mansion.

imo

[Imperfect4]

Well said!!!!!!!!!!

I really don't have much sympathy for Murray......

IMO MJ was a terrible person and owns as much of the responsibility for his own death as Murray and anyone else that kept him supplied with his drugs of choice. imo

Thanks!

I think they are/were people with serious issues. I think their combined issues got one of them dead. They are both responsible, imo.

[Imperfect4]

You won't find many on here that will put the blame on the one person who could have prevented his own death. MJ. Dr. Murray helped him, but again it was MJ who started the ball rolling. IMO

Exactly! (Good to see you. Nice outfit. :laugh:)

[Imperfect4]

MJ could have not rolled that ball if he had no one to roll it to.....

Murray is the one that killed MJ imo. If he had done as he should have done MJ would be in London now with his children living in Rod Stewart's mansion.

imo

Oh, my. The last thing MJ obviously needed was another fantasy vacation holed up in some other celebrity's mansion. He needed rehab, for heaven's sake. And a reality check.

[GentleBreeze]

Your little eye roll smiley doesn't feel very ... hospitable ... to me.

Bolded to address. I think society is equally sick of celebrities who are allowed to live outside the law. And I think society is being made sick by those who take no personal responsibility for their actions, and their defenders.

I found your remark very crass and rude plus a lie as no one has ever said they wanted to hang anyone.

I doubt they are going to bring MJs dead corpse in the room so they can berate him and blame him for the disease he had.

If there is an arrest for homicide the trial will be about Murray and the man who he killed by gross negligence. I am positive that the jury will be able to keep their eyes on the ball and remember who the defendant is in the case.

imo

[Imperfect4]

It almost seems as if some people think Dr. Murray is a hero for killing Michael Jackson.
:confused:

That is a completely ridiculous statement. Just ridiculous.

[GentleBreeze]

Oh, my. The last thing MJ obviously needed was another fantasy vacation holed up in some other celebrity's mansion. He needed rehab, for heaven's sake. And a reality check.

It was not a fantasy vacation.

He would be working doing 50 shows.

imo

[Eagleeye]

http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/4050158-twilight-zone-sting-horror-sound-effect-wav

[daniel green]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

snipped.

On this thread alone someone posted that they wish Murray could have diprivan ill-administered and yesterday someone mentioned how it would be appropriate to crucify, literally, the man. :w00t:

[daniel green]

Oh, my. The last thing MJ obviously needed was another fantasy vacation holed up in some other celebrity's mansion. He needed rehab, for heaven's sake. And a reality check.

Exactly. Absolutely.

[Imperfect4]

I found your remark very crass and rude plus a lie as no one has ever said they wanted to hang anyone.

I doubt they are going to bring MJs dead corpse in the room so they can berate him and blame him for the disease he had.

If there is an arrest for homicide the trial will be about Murray and the man who he killed by gross negligence. I am positive that the jury will be able to keep their eyes on the ball and remember who the defendant is in the case.

imo

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am very confident there aren't too many private citizens who will be unwilling to see very clearly the role MJ played in his own problems.

[GentleBreeze]

We really don't even know that MJ OVERDOSED on Propovol and we don't know for a fact MJ died as a result of Murray leaving the room.

And we dont know that it didnt happen either.:confused:

We actually know nothing for sure except that he died but what does that have to do with anything.

Until an arrest comes out we only have what the media picks up so this case certainly isn't any different than most.

imo

[daniel green]

Your little eye roll smiley doesn't feel very ... hospitable ... to me.

Bolded to address. I think society is equally sick of celebrities who are allowed to live outside the law. And I think society is being made sick by those who take no personal responsibility for their actions, and their defenders.

I could not agree with you more. And I believe 99.9% of our society agrees.

[daniel green]

Well.. if that happens, I hope he enjoys his new country of residence, and hope his gaggle of children don't miss him too much.

Nice remark about his children, who have no part of this whatsoever and should not be mentioned.

[Imperfect4]

It was not a fantasy vacation.

He would be working doing 50 shows.

imo

You're the one who mentioned Rod Stewart's mansion, as though Mike and his kids would be walking the gardens, just the perfect little family.

MJ wouldn't make it through 50 shows. He shouldn't have been scheduled for any shows, he should've been in rehab. Getting R.E.A.L.

[GentleBreeze]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am very confident there aren't too many private citizens who will be unwilling to see very clearly the role MJ played in his own problems.

I have no earthly idea why you keep making these sarcastic barbs as if trying to pretend that I care. Strange.

What you think certainly won't burst my bubble. You have your own opinion but you somehow fail to see that I also am entitled to my own beliefs.

What you believe has nothing to do with me nor matters to me.:confused:

imo

[Imperfect4]

On this thread alone someone posted that they wish Murray could have diprivan ill-administered and yesterday someone mentioned how it would be appropriate to crucify, literally, the man. :w00t:

Nope, no mob mentality here! :unsure:

[Rayosunshine]

Seems obvious just from this thread why Murray has a bodyguard. :scared:

Seems many are ready to hang the man today, preferably at high noon in the village square.

Let's make an example out of him! But let's not talk about the example the 50 year-old father of three set. God forbid we hold MJ responsible in any way for his own decisions, choices, or ultimate demise.

I really don't get it. The patient was a known substance abuser. Many other doctors were apparently involved over the years in feeding the patient's appetite for prescription drugs.

But it's Conrad Murray's head so many want on a platter?

We need someone to blame, and it sure as hell won't be Jackson! Or any of the other doctors who helped him get his drugs but were either more careful than Murray, or were dealing with a younger, healthier Michael Jackson when they were prescribing or dispensing or infusing or whatever.

All things considered -- and there are SO MANY things to consider when it comes to how and why MJ died -- the mob mentality with regard to Murray is disturbing, to say the least.

Where I come from, fault lies in the hands that administer, and that is state law. I'm not sure what California has for their law, but that's it in my state. i.e., if an md orders an over dose of morphine that kills the patient, the person who administered the drug is at fault, period.

[GentleBreeze]

MJ lived longer than I ever expected him to.

Drug addicts typically die far sooner than they should. If it wasn't Murray it would have been another doctor.

Again...we don't know what combo of drugs MJ had in his system or that Murray prescribed them all. We don't know that MJ didn't take some of his own stash from another doctor unbeknownst to Murray.

To think MJ would be off in London, happy and healthy as a clam if Murray wasn't involved is ridiculous. The man was a hard core, chronic, drug addict.

Oh we don't know that. If he was negligent it doesn't mean that others would be. That is preposterous.

So was James Brown and he was preforming at the age of 73.

imo

[Imperfect4]

I have no earthly idea why you keep making these sarcastic barbs as if trying to pretend that I care. Strange.

What you think certainly won't burst my bubble. You have your own opinion but you somehow fail to see that I also am entitled to my own beliefs.

What you believe has nothing to do with me nor matters to me.:confused:

imo

You found my post "crass and rude" ... and I'm the one making sarcastic barbs? lol

If you're gonna dish it, you'd best be able to take it, Gentlebreeze. Sort of the unwritten law of message boards.

What say we skip and scroll now past one another's posts so as not to derail this thread?

[daniel green]

Michael didn't hook himself up to the iv and administer the deadly drug. Dr. Murray did.

Oh for the love of pete, he all but did. HE chose this doctor who he knew before and it's why chose this doctor. MJ was using diprivan for the last decade and he didn't know this doctor but for a short time.

[GentleBreeze]

"working" doing TWO shows a week.............oh the horror...eyeroll

The spent energy that MJ put out in one three hours show would be much much much more than the average Joe Schmoe who sits on their butts 5 days a week at a computer or who even goes by the gym to workout for 30 or 45 minutes a day.

imo

[Imperfect4]

Where I come from, fault lies in the hands that administer, and that is state law. I'm not sure what California has for their law, but that's it in my state. i.e., if an md orders an over dose of morphine that kills the patient, the person who administered the drug is at fault, period.

If Murray is guilty of something, he should be charged.

Where I come from, at the age of 50, you are expected to deal with your issues and take responsibility for your decisions.

[daniel green]

Nope, no mob mentality here! :unsure:

Not in the least.

Just nail the man to a cross, literally, is what a poster suggested yesterday and on the first pg of this thread you will see that he/she suggested that a "peer review" will nail him to a cross, as well, and that said peer review is above the law. So go figure.

[Rayosunshine]

Yeah, when he told Murray he wanted to get some sleep he didn't mean for it to be forever.

imo

And, unfortunately, Dr. Murray did not know the difference between sleep and anesthesia. That's another class he must have missed in medical school. I wonder if there is even a Hippocratic Oath where he graduated from medical school - somewhere outside the US?

[Zenyatta]

I found your remark very crass and rude plus a lie as no one has ever said they wanted to hang anyone.

I doubt they are going to bring MJs dead corpse in the room so they can berate him and blame him for the disease he had.

If there is an arrest for homicide the trial will be about Murray and the man who he killed by gross negligence. I am positive that the jury will be able to keep their eyes on the ball and remember who the defendant is in the case.

imo

Here's one:

08-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Rayosunshine
Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,589

"First do no harm" - I guess Dr. Murray missed that part when he was taking his oath as an M.D.

I hope they nail him to a cross.

___________________________________________

(bolding mine).

I've been reading here for awhile and have never known Imperfect to tell a lie.

imo

[daniel green]

ABSOLUTELY!

I am still curious about that 4 hour medical eval for the insurance.

That's what I kept forgettting yesterday!!!!

On ET last night they said that MJ had put off the stress test part of that exam several times and it was last scheduled for three days after MJ died.

[GentleBreeze]

Where I come from, fault lies in the hands that administer, and that is state law. I'm not sure what California has for their law, but that's it in my state. i.e., if an md orders an over dose of morphine that kills the patient, the person who administered the drug is at fault, period.

It certainly wouldn't be the fault of the person that received the overdose but the one that gave the overdose.

imo

[Zenyatta]

If Murray is guilty of something, he should be charged.

Where I come from, at the age of 50, you are expected to deal with your issues and take responsibility for your decisions.

Voice of reason, along with a few others. Thank you!

[daniel green]

You're the one who mentioned Rod Stewart's mansion, as though Mike and his kids would be walking the gardens, just the perfect little family.

MJ wouldn't make it through 50 shows. He shouldn't have been scheduled for any shows, he should've been in rehab. Getting R.E.A.L.

1) That whole tale of Rod Stewart's house, first of all, came from a UK tabloid, so no truth to it. (Perhaps, though, RS should have taken care of HIS children so they would not spend THEIR lives in and out of jails/prisons/rehab)

But, yeah, that little fantasy of the perfect life were it not for the dastardly Dr Murray just slays me.

[Rayosunshine]

It certainly wouldn't be the fault of the person that received the overdose but the one that gave the overdose.

imo

You got it, and it would not be the fault of the one who ordered the overdose either.

[daniel green]

Here's one:

snipped

Here is another:

I think he does belong in a cell, and perhaps with an iv of propofal running through his veins, and left alone. Something along the lines of what he did with Michael Jackson.

imo...of course.

[daniel green]

Michael hired Dr. Murray to hook him up to IV's and administer deadly drugs. That's why he hired himself a doctor. How is Michael in no way responsible for what happened to him?

And it was not the first doc who MJ hired for that purpose, either.

[daniel green]

Oh, my. So now we're blaming Dr. Murray for not being more careful in dispensing a dangerous drug to MJ so he could support his children on the salary MJ paid him to dispense dangerous drugs? If Murray had just been more careful about dispensing a dangerous drug, then all would be well? His kids would be provided for and MJ would get some rest?

lol

lolololololol

I haven't visited this thread in awhile. Me thinks I've entered the Twilight Zone. :laugh:

Oh, it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy past Twilight Zone. You fogot the part about Dr M's children and his medical education being in another country.:blushing:

[Imperfect4]

Here's one:

08-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Rayosunshine
Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,589

"First do no harm" - I guess Dr. Murray missed that part when he was taking his oath as an M.D.

I hope they nail him to a cross.

___________________________________________

(bolding mine).

I've been reading here for awhile and have never known Imperfect to tell a lie.

imo

Thank you for the assist! :seeya:

[ScoobyDoo]

Nice remark about his children, who have no part of this whatsoever and should not be mentioned.


You might have adopted that attitude when you and others debated the parentage of MJ's children for days on end.

[daniel green]

Michael didn't hook himself up to the iv and administer the deadly drug. Dr. Murray did.

He paid for the drug and he paid for Dr M to give it to him. Just like he'd looked for and doctor shopped for 10 yrs to pay other docs and other pharmacies for it.

[Imperfect4]

1) That whole tale of Rod Stewart's house, first of all, came from a UK tabloid, so no truth to it. (Perhaps, though, RS should have taken care of HIS children so they would not spend THEIR lives in and out of jails/prisons/rehab)

But, yeah, that little fantasy of the perfect life were it not for the dastardly Dr Murray just slays me.

Bolded to address. Same here. Plus, if one has a need for hero-worship, there are better examples, imo.

[ScoobyDoo]

He paid for the drug and he paid for Dr M to give it to him. Just like he'd looked for and doctor shopped for 10 yrs to pay other docs and other pharmacies for it.


Thats not going to prevent Dr. Murray's imminent arrest for manslaughter.

[daniel green]

snipped

An addict will not say no if they addiction is placed available to them right under their noses and into their veins.

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

MJ paid for these very docs--you know, the BAD docs who are nothing more than drug dealers--and paid for (or didn't pay and was being sued by pharmacies for non-payment) of these drugs.

It's not Murray who dangled a drug in front of MJ. MJ insisted on Murray because he knew Murray would give him the drugs he wanted.

[daniel green]

Thats not going to prevent Dr. Murray's imminent arrest for manslaughter.

Good luck hoping that he will be convicted if arrested, OK?

And be careful what one wishes for. WOW. YOUZER. Just imagine all the dirt that would come out during THAT trial.

[daniel green]

Bolded to address. Same here. Plus, if one has a need for hero-worship, there are better examples, imo.

Millions of them.

[ScoobyDoo]

Good luck hoping that he will be convicted if arrested, OK?

And be careful what one wishes for. WOW. YOUZER. Just imagine all the dirt that would come out during THAT trial.


Whatever dirt that comes out can't be any worse than all the LIES told about him over the past 15 years.

[daniel green]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am very confident there aren't too many private citizens who will be unwilling to see very clearly the role MJ played in his own problems.

That contributory negligence is gonna be a HUGE hurdle.

[daniel green]

Michael paid the price for his responsibility. snipped.

Really, huh?

As a father to three children? Really? Responsibility?

[Imperfect4]

Oh, it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy past Twilight Zone. You fogot the part about Dr M's children and his medical education being in another country.:blushing:

Let me guess. It's NOT okay for Murray to have a gaggle of children with different mothers, but it IS okay for MJ to have 3 children whose biological parentage is for all intents and purposes, unknown?

And surely we're not criticizing Murray for training outside the U.S., since apparently the U.S. "trains" lots of other doctors to cater to our celebrity culture?

[Cindylee]

Exactly! (Good to see you. Nice outfit. :laugh:)

Thank you. :wink:

[daniel green]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am very confident there aren't too many private citizens who will be unwilling to see very clearly the role MJ played in his own problems.

Oh, me either.

First of all, it is difficult to get a jury to care about an addict. That is just plain and simple.

And, even if one gets past that hurdle inherent in those cases, having a jury not use common sense and totally be alright with the amounts/types drugs MJ had abused for 20+ yrs, the fact that he'd been using dirprivan for the last decade--no way a jury can put that aside.

[ScoobyDoo]

That contributory negligence is gonna be a HUGE hurdle.


There is no such thing as contributory negligence in a criminal case of manslaughter. That would only apply to the civil case of malpractice, if at all.

[daniel green]

Let me guess. It's NOT okay for Murray to have a gaggle of children with different mothers, but it IS okay for MJ to have 3 children whose biological parentage is for all intents and purposes, unknown?

And surely we're not criticizing Murray for training outside the U.S., since apparently the U.S. "trains" lots of other doctors to cater to our celebrity culture?

Yes, now you're cooking with gas!

[daniel green]

There is no such thing as contributory negligence in a criminal case of manslaughter. That would only apply to the civil case of malpractice, if at all.

NO!!!!!!!!! OMG, I didn't know!!!!!!!!! I wasn't just using a general and descriptive term!!!!!!!!!

[ScoobyDoo]

NO!!!!!!!!! OMG, I didn't know!

snipped



Thats why I corrected your error.

[daniel green]

I think there is a mob mentality here towards people addicted to prescription drugs. Maybe just against rich and famous people because they are supposed to be able to get prescription drugs "normal" folks can´t get.

snipped

That is just not true.

Very poor people are addicted to Rx meds. Millions. Google Appalachia+oxycontin. One need not be anything other than regular, poor, middle class, rich, whatever, to be an addict to Rx meds.

[ScoobyDoo]

Let me guess. It's NOT okay for Murray to have a gaggle of children with different mothers, but it IS okay for MJ to have 3 children whose biological parentage is for all intents and purposes, unknown?

And surely we're not criticizing Murray for training outside the U.S., since apparently the U.S. "trains" lots of other doctors to cater to our celebrity culture?


Its unknown to the public, who really has no right to know. I suppose you disapprove of all surragate parents?

[Cindylee]

If Murray is guilty of something, he should be charged.

Where I come from, at the age of 50, you are expected to deal with your issues and take responsibility for your decisions.

We live in the same place????:ohmy: That is where I come from too.

[Unperson1984]

I think they are going to arrest Murray on other charges in addition to the homicide. Imo they have got his number now and he just didn't start being a Dr. Feel Good for MJ only.

imo

I hope they stay focused on the Jackson case. This type of case is hard enough to get a conviction without making it too complex and far-reaching.

IMO

[Zenyatta]

Hey how ya doin? Long time no see.

Didn't someone even offer to BUILD the cross?????????

Hey! Nice to see you too! And in a great freshly laundered dress that is very flattering on you.

I've been looking for a link for you but haven't been successful in finding it. I'm pretty sure I recall MJ's chef Kai Chase saying that MJ's mansion was often stiflingly hot due to fireplaces and heaters often being on. If this is true, this can't be piled on Murray as being part of his grand scheme to throw off time of death estimates. Since I couldn't find a link, I guess I haven't blown a hole in that part of your theory yet!

Imperfect4 - you're very welcome.

[Imperfect4]

I think there is a mob mentality here towards people addicted to prescription drugs. Maybe just against rich and famous people because they are supposed to be able to get prescription drugs "normal" folks can´t get.

I think a prescription drug is prescribed by a doctor first. So if someone becomes addicted to these drugs that were prescribed to him by a doctor, you cannot claim it was his own fault. That would be an attribution error. imo

There are plenty of people who get hooked on prescription drugs. And there are plenty who get unhooked. It happens every day. People take responsibility. They get clean.

Also, I believe the fact of the matter is most people addicted to prescription painkillers, for example, do not take them as prescribed. Shall we blame someone besides them for that?

We're ADULTS, for heaven's sake. It's our RESPONSIBILITY to keep or get ourselves healthy and productive. It's part of being a sane ADULT.

I've had lots of surgery for various things, some of it very serious. I refuse narcotic painkiller prescriptions when they're offered. I've taken them in the past. They make me feel lousy. It's really not that hard to do, to look after yourself. And if you find it impossible because of early life experiences, it is then your RESPONSIBILITY, as an ADULT, to deal with those issues.

[ScoobyDoo]

There are plenty of people who get hooked on prescription drugs. And there are plenty who get unhooked. It happens every day. People take responsibility. They get clean.

Also, I believe the fact of the matter is most people addicted to prescription painkillers, for example, do not take them as prescribed. Shall we blame someone besides them for that?

We're ADULTS, for heaven's sake. It's our RESPONSIBILITY to keep or get ourselves healthy and productive. It's part of being a sane ADULT.

I've had lots of surgery for various things, some of it very serious. I refuse narcotic painkiller prescriptions when they're offered. I've taken them in the past. They make me feel lousy. It's really not that hard to do, to look after yourself. And if you find it impossible because of early life experiences, it is then your RESPONSIBILITY, as an ADULT, to deal with those issues.

This thread is not about you and your painfree surgeries.

[Imperfect4]

Its unknown to the public, who really has no right to know. I suppose you disapprove of all surragate parents?

I have nothing against surrogate parenting.

I have something against double standards.

I have something against deadbeat, missing fathers.

I have something against substance abusing fathers.

[Imperfect4]

This thread is not about you and your painfree surgeries.

My painfree surgeries? :laugh:

As retiredcop as so often warned you: STOP BAITING.

TIA

[Imperfect4]

somebody posted before that society is sick of celebrities ..., in other words what I posted above, and you agreed. IIRC

Anyway someone that is addicted is ill, and decent or friendly people don´t talk as if someone like that was bad etc

imo

MJ was 50. He had the time and the resources to get clean. He chose not to. Perhaps if someone in his orbit had been a bit less "decent or friendly" he could've been forced into rehab. His motherless children deserved a fully-present father, at a minimum.

[daniel green]

It is bad.

There are no good drug addicted parents out there. Not a one.

NONE.

It's a contradiction in terms.

If you'd seen the two cases on which I worked this week, it would break your heart.

[Eagleeye]

Personally, I could care less that MJ died. He didn't care, so why should I?

I am just curious as to HOW EXACTLY he died.

Look at post #1 today, it might give you a clue.

[Unperson1984]

MJ could have not rolled that ball if he had no one to roll it to.....

Murray is the one that killed MJ imo. If he had done as he should have done MJ would be in London now with his children living in Rod Stewart's mansion.

imo

I believe Murray is responsible for his actions, but if he had said no MJ would have found another doctor that said yes. That's the nature of addicts.

IMO

[Poochie Pie]

Do people not look at links? IMO, Murray should have kept his mouth closed. He was/is being investigated for manslaughter.

I think it odd that he is afraid to return phone calls or use his email. The video, IMO, was to garner public sympathy.. Nothing more... I agree Firehead... I find it very odd about the phone calls and email... If he "did everything he could", and "told the truth", I don't understand what he is so fearful of...

Poochie

[Emerald]

That's what I kept forgettting yesterday!!!!

On ET last night they said that MJ had put off the stress test part of that exam several times and it was last scheduled for three days after MJ died.

If MJ was insured without the requisite medical tests, that's a problem for the insurer. It has nothing to do with Dr. Murray's alleged actions.

JMO

[February]

I believe Murray is responsible for his actions, but if he had said no MJ would have found another doctor that said yes. That's the nature of addicts.

IMO


Has it been proven Michael was an addict? It HAS been proven Dr.Murray was derelict in his duties as a physician.

And according to Michael's children he was a great parent.

[Cindylee]

-------------------

I do remember u talking about your daughter........isnt that the same thing? jmo

Welcome back. :smile:

[forensicpsy~]

He will have people keeping an eye on him very soon, as I just heard on KNX News Radio, Los Angeles, that Dr Murray will be arrested next week, and charged with homicide. They need to do one more search. They have not decided if they will allow Dr. Murray to surrender himself, or if they will go to him and arrest him.

Alot can happen in a week.

I wonder what his emotional state is? :sad:

He's a loser but I feel sorry for him and all the other victims of the creepy Mr. Jackson.

imo

[Cindylee]

We were talking earlier about the unnamed source saying that DR. M was going to be arrested next week. I, an others thought it was unwise, if true to announce it. I feel the same way about the MJ new memorial. Why in the world, if they wanted a private service would they announce it weeks in advance? Are they not just asking for another mob of people?
Or is that the point???

[ScoobyDoo]

Alot can happen in a week.

I wonder what his emotional state is? :sad:

He's a loser but I feel sorry for him and all the other victims of the creepy Mr. Jackson.

imo

Do you also feel sorry for the thousands of sick and dying children that creepy guy donated over 500 million dollars to over his lifetime?

[retiredcop]

Has it been proven Michael was an addict? It HAS been proven Dr.Murray was derelict in his duties as a physician.

And according to Michael's children he was a great parent.

Mr Jackson was an addict and that is known by everyone. NOTHING has been proven about Dr Murray. He has not been arrested or convicted. Unless you count the arm chair sleuths on this message board who are screaming for his head.

in my opinion

Hi Buzzzzz Welcome back.

[Poochie Pie]

---------------

u ask what he's fearful of? Have u not read some of the posts? Some people wanna nail him to a cross...........and he hasnt even been found guilty. geesh imo LOL... Oh YES, I have certainly read all of the posts Buzzzzzz... But i just can't remember the last time I heard of someone being attacked or murdered, OR "nailed to a cross" thru their email... or their phone for that matter...

Poochie

[ScoobyDoo]

Mr Jackson was an addict and that is known by everyone. NOTHING has been proven about Dr Murray. He has not been arrested or convicted. Unless you count the arm chair sleuths on this message board who are screaming for his head.

in my opinion

Hi Buzzzzz Welcome back.

Did you forget that Dr. Murray admitted to administering the deadly drug?

[GentleBreeze]

LOL... Oh YES, I have certainly read all of the posts Buzzzzzz... But i just can't remember the last time I heard of someone being attacked or murdered, OR "nailed to a cross" thru their email... or their phone for that matter...

Poochie

LOL! And of course that remark was made over a week ago by one poster which has now morphed into "Some people wanna":wink:

imoo

[Emerald]

If Nurse Lee is to be believed, when she denied his request to administer propofol, MJ then asked if she could provide it for him.

Who was he going to get to administer the drugs if she had gotten them for him?

MJ is responsible for his part in this debacle.

That does not excuse anyone else's role.

JMO