Aug. 17 & 18

[flipflop]

Jackson Doc Staffer Ordered to Retrieve Boxes

Posted Aug 17th 2009 1:30AM by TMZ Staff

An uncle of the two sisters who worked at Dr. Conrad Murray's medical practice in Houston says the day Michael Jackson died, one of the women got a call from either Dr. Murray or someone who worked for him to go and pick up boxes at Dr. Murray's storage facility ... and she got the call more than 5 hours before Dr. Murray called 911.




Law enforcement has a suspicion Dr. Murray walked out of the room for a period of time after administering the Propofol, possibly fell asleep, and when he returned Jackson had stopped breathing. Cops think Dr. Murray then may have spent hours "cleaning up" the situation before calling 911.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-employee-boxes-propofol/

[Justice4all]

Jackson Doc Staffer Ordered to Retrieve Boxes

Posted Aug 17th 2009 1:30AM by TMZ Staff

An uncle of the two sisters who worked at Dr. Conrad Murray's medical practice in Houston says the day Michael Jackson died, one of the women got a call from either Dr. Murray or someone who worked for him to go and pick up boxes at Dr. Murray's storage facility ... and she got the call more than 5 hours before Dr. Murray called 911.




Law enforcement has a suspicion Dr. Murray walked out of the room for a period of time after administering the Propofol, possibly fell asleep, and when he returned Jackson had stopped breathing. Cops think Dr. Murray then may have spent hours "cleaning up" the situation before calling 911.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-employee-boxes-propofol/

TY for the link.

WOW i wonder how long MJ was dead before 911 was called.

[flipflop]

TY for the link.

WOW i wonder how long MJ was dead before 911 was called.

I guess we will find out when there is a trial because in my opinion, I just don't see how this Dr. will not be arrested and charged in MJ's death.

[Justice4all]

I guess we will find out when there is a trial because in my opinion, I just don't see how this Dr. will not be arrested and charged in MJ's death.

I think the Dr will be charged but i think we'll find out when the autopsy is released how long he was dead. ( or i should say i hope we do )

[Mairi II]

I was reading somewhere yesterday (TMZ maybe?) that one of the paramedics said MJ was dead for hours before they were called. Lividity had already begun to set in (don't know if it was fixed yet, though).

What I don't get is WHY would paramedics then intubate him, etc. if it's so obvious he was dead. Is that protocol because there wasn't a doctor there who would pronounce him dead? I just think it's odd, if he was really dead, that they worked on him like they did (as evidenced by pics in ambulance).

[Justice4all]

I was reading somewhere yesterday (TMZ maybe?) that one of the paramedics said MJ was dead for hours before they were called. Lividity had already begun to set in (don't know if it was fixed yet, though).

What I don't get is WHY would paramedics then intubate him, etc. if it's so obvious he was dead. Is that protocol because there wasn't a doctor there who would pronounce him dead? I just think it's odd, if he was really dead, that they worked on him like they did (as evidenced by pics in ambulance).

I read one day on TMZ the paramedics wanted to call him dead at the scene when they first got there but the Dr wouldn't let them.

[Mairi II]

I read one day on TMZ the paramedics wanted to call him dead at the scene when they first got there but the Dr wouldn't let them.

I wonder if Murray was freakin' out and very vehemently instructing the paramedics to intubate, etc. and they really had no choice because they were "outranked."

[Justice4all]

I wonder if Murray was freakin' out and very vehemently instructing the paramedics to intubate, etc. and they really had no choice because they were "outranked."

that's the way i understood it went down.

[ScoobyDoo]

TY for the link.

WOW i wonder how long MJ was dead before 911 was called.


Too long. Think about this: Dr. Murray claims he found Michael not breathing but with a faint pulse. If he wasn't breathing how come he didn't attempt mouth to mouth? Why did he at least pretend to give CPR, when...as he claims the heart was beating, instead of trying to get him to breath? A 10 year old could have done a better job, and for a lot less than one hundred fifty thousand a month.

imo...of course.

[retiredcop]

Too long. Think about this: Dr. Murray claims he found Michael not breathing but with a faint pulse. If he wasn't breathing how come he didn't attempt mouth to mouth? Why did he at least pretend to give CPR, when...as he claims the heart was beating, instead of trying to get him to breath? A 10 year old could have done a better job, and for a lot less than one hundred fifty thousand a month.

imo...of course.

How do you know the doctor didn't do mouth to mouth?

in my opinion

[Xenam]

Too long. Think about this: Dr. Murray claims he found Michael not breathing but with a faint pulse. If he wasn't breathing how come he didn't attempt mouth to mouth? Why did he at least pretend to give CPR, when...as he claims the heart was beating, instead of trying to get him to breath? A 10 year old could have done a better job, and for a lot less than one hundred fifty thousand a month.

imo...of course.

Good morning all

Scooby -- your NIC just makes me smile read when I read it. :laugh:

Anyway - simple answer to your question -- because MJ was already dead. JMO

[Xenam]

Birthday Burial for Michael Jackson, Dad Says

Posted Aug 17th 2009 1:00AM by TMZ Staff

Joe JacksonHow better to celebrate Michael Jackson's would-be 51st birthday than by burying him?

That's the plan, at least according to his dad, Joe Jackson. The family statesman told the NY Daily News that Jackson will finally be laid to rest on August 29 at Forest Lawn Cemetery.

Joe told the paper the burial plans were just finalized over the past few days.

We've been told Jackson's body is being kept above ground at Forest Lawn and is being kept in a freezer.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/mIchael-jackson-birthday-burial-joe-jackson-dies/

[retiredcop]

Good morning all

Scooby -- your NIC just makes me smile read when I read it. :laugh:

Anyway - simple answer to your question -- because MJ was already dead. JMO

Do you seriously believe if Mr Jackson was dead for hours and even had blood pooling the emergency room physicians and nurses would have worked on him for an hour to try to revive him?

Are the doctors and nurses at the hospital in a giant conspiracy with Dr Murray? GMAB

in my opinion

[Xenam]

do you seriously believe if mr jackson was dead for hours and even had blood pooling the emergency room physicians and nurses would have worked on him for an hour to try to revive him?

Are the doctors and nurses at the hospital in a giant conspiracy with dr murray?

In my opinion

yes..............

[retiredcop]

yes..............

:laugh::laugh::laugh:..................

[tiptop]

With all the info swirling about, it seems I recall Dr Murray insisting the ER staff continue to work on Michael. Serious question here - is that possible? Doesnt seem like it to me, but I am not a medical professional. If there was a chance he could be revived, they wouldnt have to be begged to continue, right? JMO

[retiredcop]

With all the info swirling about, it seems I recall Dr Murray insisting the ER staff continue to work on Michael. Serious question here - is that possible? Doesnt seem like it to me, but I am not a medical professional. If there was a chance he could be revived, they wouldnt have to be begged to continue, right? JMO

That was the EMTs he told to continue. There is no way a body that has been dead so long blood was pooling, Dr Murray would be able to get the emergency room doctor to continue resuscitation.

in my opinion

[Xenam]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:..................

Laugh at this! This is not new news:

Jackson's Doctor -- Strange Signs

Posted Jul 27th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Jackson's Doctor -- Strange SignsLaw enforcement sources tell us one of the theories they're exploring in Michael Jackson's death is that Dr. Conrad Murray administered Propofol to the singer and then left the room, eventually to return to a dead body.

Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank.

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

As we already reported, paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the house but Dr. Murray insisted they transport the singer to the hospital.

We're told at the UCLA Medical Center
-- after doctors gave up on resuscitation efforts because Jackson was clearly dead -- Dr. Murray continued CPR, which some of the UCLA docs found curious.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

[retiredcop]

that´s how it was always reported, that Murray had the highest rank as a doctor and therefore they had to go along with what he wanted. He got in their way and he was the one that was primarily working on Michael in the ambulance and in the hospital IIRC. IMO

No, Dr Murrary WAS NOT working on Mr Jackson in the emergency room.

The emergency room staff took over. Dr Murray stood by and offered assistance, but he did not have hospital privileges there.

Also, when the EMTs arrived, they worked on Mr Jackson. Doctor Murray rode along in the ambulance to the hospital, but the EMTs were doing the resuscitation at that time.

in my opinion

[Xenam]

But Dr Steven Hoefflin - a close friend of Jackson and speaking with the permission of his mother Katherine - CONFIRMS the details on the vital paperwork. Hoefflin, 63, told the News of the World: "I've spoken to a chief in the fire department who told me Michael was dead when they arrived.

"He had no pulse and was not breathing. They gave him an electro-cardiogram but he was flatlined.

"They say he even had lividity, which meant the blood had sunk to the back, indicating his heart had stopped a COUPLE OF HOURS earlier.

"This is the most important aspect of the report as it means he must have been dead for over an hour, probably longer."

And last night, News of the World doctor Hilary Jones confirmed: "A body would have been dead for a minimum of three hours for lividity to show. It is rare to see this in an ambulance report. That means Michael Jackson had been dead for some hours. Normally paramedics would never try to resuscitate a body with lividity because they would know the person is dead."

It is standard procedure for US paramedics to fill out an F-902M form after attending a fatality.

Although they completed Jacko's over seven weeks ago, it has been kept from the public by detectives investigating his death.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/showbiz/michael_jackson/454405/Bombshell-report-leaves-Michaels-doctor-with-some-tricky-questions-to-answer.html

[Xenam]

No, Dr Murrary WAS NOT working on Mr Jackson in the emergency room.

The emergency room staff took over. Dr Murray stood by and offered assistance, but he did not have hospital privileges there.

Also, when the EMTs arrived, they worked on Mr Jackson. Doctor Murray rode along in the ambulance to the hospital, but the EMTs were doing the resuscitation at that time.

in my opinion



Sorry - you are incorrrect - even his attorney admitted it. Those UCLA emergency doctors knew MJ was dead - and just let Murray work on him IMO.

Per his attorney:

The doctor rode with Jackson in the ambulance and assisted emergency room doctors in trying to revive the pop star, Chernoff said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31638932/

[Xenam]

The paramedics had to fill out this form:


Instructions for completing F-902M

http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/books/bk05.pdf

http://lafd.info/index.php?title=F-902M

[tiptop]

My head is spinning. lol

[tiptop]

Sorry - you are incorrrect - even his attorney admitted it. Those UCLA emergency doctors knew MJ was dead - and just let Murray work on him IMO.

Per his attorney:

The doctor rode with Jackson in the ambulance and assisted emergency room doctors in trying to revive the pop star, Chernoff said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31638932/

I thought I remembered reading about Murray helping in the ER but wasnt sure. I remember thinking that didnt make sense to me but I am not that familar with ER procedure. I also recall the 911 call when it was mentioned there was a doctor present, the 911 guy said something like --- the doctor would take precedence over them anyway. JMO

[retiredcop]

Sorry - you are incorrrect - even his attorney admitted it. Those UCLA emergency doctors knew MJ was dead - and just let Murray work on him IMO.

Per his attorney:

The doctor rode with Jackson in the ambulance and assisted emergency room doctors in trying to revive the pop star, Chernoff said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31638932/

How did he assist? Do you know? I'll bet it wasn't hands on and taking the lead in that emergency room. Those teams work together.
He probably was assisting by informing the emergency room team as to what medications Mr Jackson had taken and time delays ect.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Laugh at this! This is not new news:

Jackson's Doctor -- Strange Signs

Posted Jul 27th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Jackson's Doctor -- Strange SignsLaw enforcement sources tell us one of the theories they're exploring in Michael Jackson's death is that Dr. Conrad Murray administered Propofol to the singer and then left the room, eventually to return to a dead body.

Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank.

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

As we already reported, paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the house but Dr. Murray insisted they transport the singer to the hospital.

We're told at the UCLA Medical Center
-- after doctors gave up on resuscitation efforts because Jackson was clearly dead -- Dr. Murray continued CPR, which some of the UCLA docs found curious.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/


Well if TMZ reports from their sources, it must be true.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I thought I remembered reading about Murray helping in the ER but wasnt sure. I remember thinking that didnt make sense to me but I am not that familar with ER procedure. I also recall the 911 call when it was mentioned there was a doctor present, the 911 guy said something like --- the doctor would take precedence over them anyway. JMO

No it doesn't make sense. Those emergency room teams decide themselves when resuscitation can continue and no other doctor without even hospital privileges is going to be working hands on with them. He was assisting verbally by informing those doctors what had happened.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

The paramedics had to fill out this form:


Instructions for completing F-902M

http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/books/bk05.pdf

http://lafd.info/index.php?title=F-902M

I know reports have to be filled out. I've seen it being done hundreds of times. Unfortunately no one has seen this report. It is not released yet.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis


Livor mortis or postmortem lividity or hypostasis (Latin: livor—bluish color, mortis—of death), one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed.

Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. The presence of livor mortis is an indication of when it would be irrelevant to begin CPR, or when it is ineffective to continue it if it is in progress. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on the deceased's back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up).

Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body.

[Eagleeye]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis


Livor mortis or postmortem lividity or hypostasis (Latin: livor—bluish color, mortis—of death), one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed.

Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. The presence of livor mortis is an indication of when it would be irrelevant to begin CPR, or when it is ineffective to continue it if it is in progress. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on the deceased's back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up).

Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body.

This proves nothing about your theory of how and when MJ died and who worked on him in the ambulance or in the ER. Your theory must be backed up by a reasonable hypothesis which IMO you have none. Rumor, speculation and inuendo. Nothing more, nothing less.
You nor the rest of us know what happened in the ambulance or the ER unless you were there!

[Eagleeye]

I know reports have to be filled out. I've seen it being done hundreds of times. Unfortunately no one has seen this report. It is not released yet.

in my opinion

Why would you as a 'Retired Cop" have seen EMT's and Paramedics fill out a form F-902M when these forms are filled out after they are finished and usually back at their station? That comment is highly suspect IMO.

[Unperson1984]

This proves nothing about your theory of how and when MJ died and who worked on him in the ambulance or in the ER. Your theory must be backed up by a reasonable hypothesis which IMO you have none. Rumor, speculation and inuendo. Nothing more, nothing less.
You nor the rest of us know what happened in the ambulance or the ER unless you were there!

You're right that none of us were there at the time, but it would be very very unusual for a hospital with the reputation of UCLA to allow a doctor without privileges to give medical care within their ER. How would they know if he was licensed to practice in CA? Even more so if they thought his behavior was strange in wanting to continue working on someone they considered to be dead.

[retiredcop]

Why would you as a 'Retired Cop" have seen EMT's and Paramedics fill out a form F-902M when these forms are filled out after they are finished and usually back at their station? That comment is highly suspect IMO.

Because usually one paramedic is assigned to paperwork. It begins on the scene. They don't have to be at the station to have completed a call.

As a matter of fact, I have seen them complete their paperwork on the scene while sitting in the truck or at a table in the emergency room.

They record BP, heart rate, ect on the scene. I don't know if the Florida paramedics fill out the exact same paperwork as CA.

in my opinion

[tiptop]

You're right that none of us were there at the time, but it would be very very unusual for a hospital with the reputation of UCLA to allow a doctor without privileges to give medical care within their ER. How would they know if he was licensed to practice in CA? Even more so if they thought his behavior was strange in wanting to continue working on someone they considered to be dead.

The whole thing is odd and it will be interesting to find out just exactly what happened, if we ever get to. I could see a family member wanting resuscitation to continue indefinitely but for a doctor that does seem strange. I suppose it's safe to assume they knew Murray was a doctor right from the get-go? He most certainly would have announced that.........or the EMTs would have told them ??? JMO

[retiredcop]

This proves nothing about your theory of how and when MJ died and who worked on him in the ambulance or in the ER. Your theory must be backed up by a reasonable hypothesis which IMO you have none. Rumor, speculation and inuendo. Nothing more, nothing less.
You nor the rest of us know what happened in the ambulance or the ER unless you were there!

It sure proves Mr Jackson did not have to be dead for 3 hours for liver mortis to set in as posters here are saying. :rolleyes:

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

The whole thing is odd and it will be interesting to find out just exactly what happened, if we ever get to. I could see a family member wanting resuscitation to continue indefinitely but for a doctor that does seem strange. I suppose it's safe to assume they knew Murray was a doctor right from the get-go? He most certainly would have announced that.........or the EMTs would have told them ??? JMO

In our litigious society I just find it strange that any hospital would accept at face value someone’s claim to be a licensed physician and allow him to treat a patient. Can you imagine the lawsuits if that person lied and something went very wrong?

At least in this case something went wrong before MJ arrived at UCLA.

[Poochie Pie]

In our litigious society I just find it strange that any hospital would accept at face value someone’s claim to be a licensed physician and allow him to treat a patient. Can you imagine the lawsuits if that person lied and something went very wrong?

At least in this case something went wrong before MJ arrived at UCLA. waaaaaay before MJ arrived at UCLA, IMO Unperson...

Poochie

[retiredcop]

The whole thing is odd and it will be interesting to find out just exactly what happened, if we ever get to. I could see a family member wanting resuscitation to continue indefinitely but for a doctor that does seem strange. I suppose it's safe to assume they knew Murray was a doctor right from the get-go? He most certainly would have announced that.........or the EMTs would have told them ??? JMO

I do not find it unusual at all on the scene for the doctor to tell EMS to continue. I don't believe for a minute he told the emergency room team to continue after over an hour of trying to resuscitate with the equipment they have there.

That emergency room team didn't know this doctor. I am sure they would not allow any doctor, even one they knew, to be involved with their resuscitation attempt. They are highly trained to work together and need no other outside doctor to assist them in hands on resuscitation. There isn't even enough room around the patient to get someone else in there especially with doing everything they would have been doing and each team member assigned to a certain procedure.

I have stood back and watched teams of trauma room doctors and nurses work. They move so fast and each has a job to do if you get to close you can be knocked to the floor getting in the way. They stop for nothing. I have also watched emergency room teams work. All I can say is step back and don't get in the way.

IIRC, Mr Jackson arrived there within the golden hour.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

There are better sources for medical information than Wikipedia. You might try others as well.

I'm waiting. Go ahead and find another source. No problem.

in my opinion

[Eagleeye]

Dr. Murray did not come down for MJ's breakfast at 9:30 am which Kia Chase said he did every morning except for the day he died. WHY didn't he on June 25, 2009?

Because I believe he was already dead. imo

[retiredcop]

waaaaaay before MJ arrived at UCLA, IMO Unperson...

Poochie

Which leads back to what I said originally. If Mr Jackson had been dead for three hours, the emergency room team would never have tried resuscitation. It is as simple as that. Also livor mortis can start within 20 minuets of death, not 3 hours. I don't believe it had set in at all. I believe he was still within the golden hour when he arrived. They tried because Mr Jackson had been given CPR. They tried for over an hour IIRC. After that it was certainly over. I believe they tried longer with the celebrity than they would have with a regular person.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Dr. Murray did not come down for MJ's breakfast at 9:30 am which Kia Chase said he did every morning except for the day he died. WHY didn't he on June 25, 2009?

Because I believe he was already dead. imo



Easy... because Dr. Murray was asleep and Michael was dead.

[ScoobyDoo]

Which leads back to what I said originally. If Mr Jackson had been dead for three hours, the emergency room team would never have tried resuscitation. It is as simple as that. Also livor mortis can start within 20 minuets of death, not 3 hours. I don't believe it had set in at all. I believe he was still within the golden hour when he arrived. They tried because Mr Jackson had been given CPR. They tried for over an hour IIRC. After that it was certainly over. I believe they tried longer with the celebrity than they would have with a regular person.

in my opinion



Well... It took Dr. Murray at least 20 minutes to get someone to dial 911 He couldn't do it himself because he forgot his address.
:rolleyes:

[retiredcop]

IIRC the EMTs didn't know they were working on Mr Jackson right away. Didn't it come out they thought it was an old dilapidated man who had reached the end of his life and didn't look at all like Mr Jackson? Maybe that's why they wanted to stop. When they found out who he was and his age, I'm sure they continued with no prodding from anyone.

in my opinion

[tiptop]

So I wonder if the retrieval of the storage boxes was just a coincidence or did Murray make the call? If he was asleep, did someone else just happen to need boxes with used needles and a chair? Hmmmm. Well I guess we dont know for sure what was in these boxes. I'm still trying to figure out how all this fits together.

Also, wasnt there a rumor about an aide to Murray who allegedly gave Michael the last shot? I dont recall Kia or anyone else mentioning seeing anyone other than the doctor that morning.

[retiredcop]

Well... It took Dr. Murray at least 20 minutes to get someone to dial 911 He couldn't do it himself because he forgot his address.
:rolleyes:

AND? What does that prove? He was receiving CPR.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Easy... because Dr. Murray was asleep and Michael was dead.

Again, I don't believe Mr Jackson was dead for three hours or the emergency room team would never have worked on him. You can't get around that one no matter how hard you try.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Easy... because Dr. Murray was asleep and Michael was dead.


Link please.

[ScoobyDoo]

AND? What does that prove? He was receiving CPR.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

He should have been receiving mouth to mouth, since by Dr. Murray's own account, he wasn't breathing... but did have a faint pulse. And by the way real CPR would have been performed with the patient on a hard flat surface. This was CPR for show, to cover his own rear end.

imo...of course.

[daniel green]

You're right that none of us were there at the time, but it would be very very unusual for a hospital with the reputation of UCLA to allow a doctor without privileges to give medical care within their ER. How would they know if he was licensed to practice in CA? Even more so if they thought his behavior was strange in wanting to continue working on someone they considered to be dead.

No kidding. I can't see it happening, no matter what his lawyer says.

[daniel green]

Even if Murray was asleep on the job, that doesn't rise to a crime.

As to MJ always having anesthesiologists for diprivan before, that's just not true. Even Klen gave it to him.

[ScoobyDoo]

Link please.

It seems as if Dr. Murray can do no harm in your eyes. He is a doctor, a greedy doctor, who killed a man, because of either incompetence or gross recklessness. You continue to offer excuses for every mistake he made. I wonder if it was your family member he had killed, if you would have as many excuses for him.

imo,,,of course.

[Poochie Pie]

Which leads back to what I said originally. If Mr Jackson had been dead for three hours, the emergency room team would never have tried resuscitation. It is as simple as that. Also livor mortis can start within 20 minuets of death, not 3 hours. I don't believe it had set in at all. I believe he was still within the golden hour when he arrived. They tried because Mr Jackson had been given CPR. They tried for over an hour IIRC. After that it was certainly over. I believe they tried longer with the celebrity than they would have with a regular person.

in my opinion All of the above could be true, retired.... However, how do you explain the fact that it has been stated over and over again from "sources close to the investigation" that the EMT's WANTED to pronounce him shortly after they arrived, but Dr. Murray would not allow it..?? It has also been stated that he was "cold to the touch" when they arrived... It is my opinion that he was long gone when Emergency personnel arrived at the house..

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Dr. Murray did not come down for MJ's breakfast at 9:30 am which Kia Chase said he did every morning except for the day he died. WHY didn't he on June 25, 2009?

Because I believe he was already dead. imo

Why would the emergency room team work on someone who was dead for three hours? Do you think emergency rooms have time to put on a show.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Even if Murray was asleep on the job, that doesn't rise to a crime.

As to MJ always having anesthesiologists for diprivan before, that's just not true. Even Klen gave it to him.


Could you please notify LAPD, the DEA, and our dear Attorney General, Jerry Brown and let them know that no crime was committed.

[retiredcop]

Could you please notify LAPD, the DEA, and our dear Attorney General, Jerry Brown and let them know that no crime was committed.

Patience, they'll find that out for themselves.:biggrin:

[Poochie Pie]

Even if Murray was asleep on the job, that doesn't rise to a crime.

As to MJ always having anesthesiologists for diprivan before, that's just not true. Even Klen gave it to him. But didn't Dr. Klein give it to him in an OFFICE SETTING..?? While he was undergoing some sort of treatment..?? I would think there would have been Nurses or resusitation equipment readily available..

Poochie

[Firehead11]

As far as the reporting from TMZ, to date they have been pretty accurate in the info that they are releasing. I will agree that we do not know what all happened since we were not there. I have repeatly stated that I will wait for the tox reports to be released but thathas not stopped the SPECULATION that Jackson was drugged to the gills from not only the propofol but "many" other drugs at the time of his death.

All of us are speculating as to what caused Michael Jackson's death. Some believe that a crime was involved, others believe that in some way it was an accident or perhaps a suicide. To me an accident is if one person falls off a cliff and wasn't pushed off, you get my drift?

Anyway, at this point, NONE of us know what happened with the exception that Michael Jackson is dead. (And even some people do not believe that.)

No ones opinion is going to change right now and some won't change their opinion even if reports come out stating facts against anyone opinions. So use the iggy button if need be.

[retiredcop]

There may be doctors looking at prescription drug charges. Who knows?

in my opinion

[daniel green]

Could you please notify LAPD, the DEA, and our dear Attorney General, Jerry Brown and let them know that no crime was committed.

Oh, I am sure that they will figure out what happened and if anyone will be charged with a crime.

It makes not one whit of difference to me.

But when someone can show me the statutes, either CA or Fed, pertaining the administering diprivan, I will be most happy.

The little personal comments, though, make arguments weaker.

[retiredcop]

As far as the reporting from TMZ, to date they have been pretty accurate in the info that they are releasing. I will agree that we do not know what all happened since we were not there. I have repeatly stated that I will wait for the tox reports to be released but thathas not stopped the SPECULATION that Jackson was drugged to the gills from not only the propofol but "many" other drugs at the time of his death.

All of us are speculating as to what caused Michael Jackson's death. Some believe that a crime was involved, others believe that in some way it was an accident or perhaps a suicide. To me an accident is if one person falls off a cliff and wasn't pushed off, you get my drift?

Anyway, at this point, NONE of us know what happened with the exception that Michael Jackson is dead. (And even some people do not believe that.)

No ones opinion is going to change right now and some won't change their opinion even if reports come out stating facts against anyone opinions. So use the iggy button if need be.

I agree with the use of the iggy button. It is for posters who either do not want to discuss anything that opposes their opinions or for posters who can't seem to discuss anything that opposes their opinions.

I say bring on all your opinions whether I agree or not. I'm just not afraid of the big bad wolf. :biggrin:

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

Why would the emergency room team work on someone who was dead for three hours? Do you think emergency rooms have time to put on a show.:biggrin:

in my opinion I don't believe they DID work on him for "three hours" retired... That may just turn out to be another "story" we have heard... Often times, in my unfortunate experience, the deceased is kept in a Trauma room, or emergency room, until all of the Family can be gathered at the Hospital.. Doesn't always mean they are "working on them"..

Poochie

[Firehead11]

Oh, I am sure that they will figure out what happened and if anyone will be charged with a crime.

It makes not one whit of difference to me.

But when someone can show me the statutes, either CA or Fed, pertaining the administering diprivan, I will be most happy.

The little personal comments, though, make arguments weaker.


The bolded part, I will agree with but everyone is doing that aren't they?

[retiredcop]

It seems as if Dr. Murray can do no harm in your eyes. He is a doctor, a greedy doctor, who killed a man, because of either incompetence or gross recklessness. You continue to offer excuses for every mistake he made. I wonder if it was your family member he had killed, if you would have as many excuses for him.

imo,,,of course.

This thread is not about me, my family, or little personal comments.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

by the time they got to the hospital, everyone knew it was MJ and he was dead. If Murray identified himself as his personal doctor and wanted to continue to work on him, I can imagine they would let him under the circumstances. imo

Nope. Not if he did not have privileges at the hospital, and he did not.

[Eagleeye]

AND? What does that prove? He was receiving CPR.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

The EMT's said he was flatlined. Why was Dr. Murray doing CPR on a dead man since lividity had already set in? Are you confusing yourself with your own posts?

[Poochie Pie]

As far as the reporting from TMZ, to date they have been pretty accurate in the info that they are releasing. I will agree that we do not know what all happened since we were not there. I have repeatly stated that I will wait for the tox reports to be released but thathas not stopped the SPECULATION that Jackson was drugged to the gills from not only the propofol but "many" other drugs at the time of his death.

All of us are speculating as to what caused Michael Jackson's death. Some believe that a crime was involved, others believe that in some way it was an accident or perhaps a suicide. To me an accident is if one person falls off a cliff and wasn't pushed off, you get my drift?

Anyway, at this point, NONE of us know what happened with the exception that Michael Jackson is dead. (And even some people do not believe that.)

No ones opinion is going to change right now and some won't change their opinion even if reports come out stating facts against anyone opinions. So use the iggy button if need be. You are correct about TMZ, Firehead... They are the ones who broke the News of his death not 20 or 30 minutes after he was taken away in the Ambulance..!! All of the other news stations were reporting that "he had collapsed".. "He was in a coma".. "He had suffered a heart attack" and on and on for 3 hours or so.. I was watching the coverage in our lounge at work..

Poochie

[forensicpsy~]

http://virginiabeach.injuryboard.com/wrongful-death/michael-jacksons-doctor-potential-liability-for-prescribing-controlled-substancesanalysis-of-california-state-board-of-medicine-regulations-.aspx?googleid=266320

California State Board of Medical Regulations and Murray

[Poochie Pie]

http://virginiabeach.injuryboard.com/wrongful-death/michael-jacksons-doctor-potential-liability-for-prescribing-controlled-substancesanalysis-of-california-state-board-of-medicine-regulations-.aspx?googleid=266320

California State Board of Medical Regulations and Murray Thanks for the Link, forensic... very interesting reading..

Poochie

[ScoobyDoo]

This thread is not about me, my family, or little personal comments.

in my opinion

Yes, of course. I apologize.

[retiredcop]

The EMT's said he was flatlined. Why was Dr. Murray doing CPR on a dead man since lividity had already set in? Are you confusing yourself with your own posts?

First of all, I don't believe lividity had set in which I posted. We also don't know if he was flat lined or for how long he was flat lined. That is only speculation anyway since we have not seen the EMTs report. The doctor said he had a faint heartbeat and wasn't breathing. The reason this is more likely is because the emergency room continued to try and resuscitate. Obviously you are not reading my posts.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Oh, I am sure that they will figure out what happened and if anyone will be charged with a crime.

It makes not one whit of difference to me.

But when someone can show me the statutes, either CA or Fed, pertaining the administering diprivan, I will be most happy.

The little personal comments, though, make arguments weaker.

You already know that there is no specific statute pertaining to diprivan. Its not the diprivan that is the problem, as I'm sure it has benefited many patients. The issue is how is was administered. And if it is shown that is was administered recklessly, inconsistent with the reasonable standard of care, and a death is the result, then we would look to the statutes governing homicide, as well as case law.

It has been stated previously that there is no specific statute prohibiting open heart surgery being performed on the hood of a car in the garage, but the absence of a specific statute doesn't make it okay to do it.

imo...of course.

[ScoobyDoo]

Even if Murray was asleep on the job, that doesn't rise to a crime.

As to MJ always having anesthesiologists for diprivan before, that's just not true. Even Klen gave it to him.


Link please.
:smile:

[retiredcop]

Link please.
:smile:

LOL Where is the link I asked you for?

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

LOL Where is the link I asked you for?

in my opinion

I must have missed it. Link to what?

[retiredcop]

http://virginiabeach.injuryboard.com/wrongful-death/michael-jacksons-doctor-potential-liability-for-prescribing-controlled-substancesanalysis-of-california-state-board-of-medicine-regulations-.aspx?googleid=266320

California State Board of Medical Regulations and Murray

Excellent link. I especially hope Nurse Lee gets banged for violating HIPAA and throwing herself all over the news for her own purposes which was publicity for her web site business.

The Act might just protect you from your doctor or nurse volunteering to speak out on a national news program like CNN and announcing to the world that you abused drugs, or may stop your provider from saying something to harm your reputation in print! Whether nutritionist Cherilyn Lee did or did not breach confidentiality would be up to the board governing her profession, presumably in California and believe me, lots of folks have emailed the California Board of Registered Nursing (BRN) asking this question.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I must have missed it. Link to what?

Post #52:wink:

[Eagleeye]

I just got off the phone with the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center. 310-944-0440. It is not possible for a physician from out of state or in state that doesn’t have privileges with their facility to perform any procedure on a patient. He would only be able to be present as a member or friend of the family. This should dispel any speculation that Dr. Murray did anything to help in the Emergency Room the afternoon that Michael Jackson died. The report that Dr. Murray continued CPR for 45 minutes in the Emergency is patently false. They also said that they know of no hospital in California that would allow this as well.

[Emerald]

If Dr. Murray did all the clean up that has been reported, why would he not 'clean up' the propofol evidence?

I don't believe the LE sources which have been quoted were actually privy to the official files or scene. We have a poster here, retiredcop, who through subsequent factual reports has correctly put two and two together. Can we quote them as reliable source? No! But, we can use the experience to make rational judgments.

My point is that just because someone with LE connections has made statements, doesn't mean they have evidence.

Retiredcop, I appreciate your posts and by no means intend this as a slam. Just trying to prove a point.

JMO

[Emerald]

Excellent link. I especially hope Nurse Lee gets banged for violating HIPAA and throwing herself all over the news for her own purposes which was publicity for her web site business.

The Act might just protect you from your doctor or nurse volunteering to speak out on a national news program like CNN and announcing to the world that you abused drugs, or may stop your provider from saying something to harm your reputation in print! Whether nutritionist Cherilyn Lee did or did not breach confidentiality would be up to the board governing her profession, presumably in California and believe me, lots of folks have emailed the California Board of Registered Nursing (BRN) asking this question.

in my opinion

FWIW

I have a hard tme with this Nurse Lee person. Why wait until MJ is dead if she was so concerned? She really makes me angry.

Since the very beginning, I've questioned her intentions.

JMO

[retiredcop]

If Dr. Murray did all the clean up that has been reported, why would he not 'clean up' the propofol evidence?

I don't believe the LE sources which have been quoted were actually privy to the official files or scene. We have a poster here, retiredcop, who through subsequent factual reports has correctly put two and two together. Can we quote them as reliable source? No! But, we can use the experience to make rational judgments.

My point is that just because someone with LE connections has made statements, doesn't mean they have evidence.

Retiredcop, I appreciate your posts and by no means intend this as a slam. Just trying to prove a point.

JMO

I agree with you completely and I'm sure I will be eating my share of crow since I am not privy to the investigation.:biggrin:

[Eagleeye]

Well it seems that Dr. Conrad Murray is licensed to practice in the State of California as an out of State physician. This to me puts a whole new twist on things and his license is still current in California as of today.

Conrad Robert Murray California Out of State License No. G71169
Address: Po Box xxxxxx, Las Vegas NV xxxxx
Current as of: 8/17/09

http://licenselookup.mbc.ca.gov/licenselookup/search.php (http://licenselookup.mbc.ca.gov/licenselookup/search.php)

Type in Murray, Conrad

[Eagleeye]

I just got off the phone with the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center. 310-944-0440. It is not possible for a physician from out of state or in state that doesn’t have privileges with their facility to perform any procedure on a patient. He would only be able to be present as a member or friend of the family. This should dispel any speculation that Dr. Murray did anything to help in the Emergency Room the afternoon that Michael Jackson died. The report that Dr. Murray continued CPR for 45 minutes in the Emergency is patently false. They also said that they know of no hospital in California that would allow this as well.

Quoting myself here. I guess I might need a recipe for Crow Pie now. It would appear that he would have had standing with the EMT's and possibly the hospital as well. Checking on the hospital privileges. BBL Have to run an errand.

[Firehead11]

Eagle, Thank You for the extra trouble you go to. Well that he is licensed in the state of CA does put a new spin on things on the Jackason death. Just maybe he did work on Jackson for another 45 minutes?

Wow, found another link for you to read:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530242,00.html
According to federal drug regulations, Michael Jackson's personal physician couldn’t legally prescribe even a powerful cough medicine for the King of Pop in California, and he couldn’t go to the pharmacy to get drugs for him, either.

Federal authorities told FOXNews.com that Dr. Conrad Murray is not licensed to administer certain levels of controlled medications in the state, and that if he gave Demerol or Oxycontin to Jackson, as has been reported, it would have been illegal.

To possess the drugs in California, Murray would have had to bring them with him from Nevada or Texas, which is illegal, or administer drugs that other doctors had provided locally or that Jackson had ordered online from abroad, which is also illegal.

[Eagleeye]

UCLA Medical Center Physicians Directory does not show that Dr Conrad Murray has privileges there. He would have had standing with the EMT's as a licensed physician in CA but not at UCLA Med Ctr.

[retiredcop]

Well it seems that Dr. Conrad Murray is licensed to practice in the State of California as an out of State physician. This to me puts a whole new twist on things and his license is still current in California as of today.

Conrad Robert Murray California Out of State License No. G71169
Address: Po Box xxxxxx, Las Vegas NV xxxxx
Current as of: 8/17/09

http://licenselookup.mbc.ca.gov/licenselookup/search.php (http://licenselookup.mbc.ca.gov/licenselookup/search.php)

Type in Murray, Conrad

I don't care where he was licensed. How does this put a new twist on anything?

No way was there time for him to pull out his license, show it to the doctor in charge in the emergency room, and take a position at the table resuscitating Mr Jackson. That's ludicrous. They would have had their own team and their own people who they are use to working with and do the job well. The teams resuscitating have one doctor in charge barking out the orders. There is no way another doctor would have been there confusing everything. The only way he was assisting is answering questions the emergency room doctor or a nurse might have asked him. GMAB

If Mr Jackson had been dead for three hours there is no way the emergency room doctor or nurses would have tried to resuscitate him.
They would have known he was way too far gone.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

UCLA Medical Center Physicians Directory does not show that Dr Conrad Murray has privileges there. He would have had standing with the EMT's as a licensed physician in CA but not at UCLA Med Ctr.

Exactly, once they arrived at UCLA Murray had no standing as a doctor.

[retiredcop]

Eagle, Thank You for the extra trouble you go to. Well that he is licensed in the state of CA does put a new spin on things on the Jackason death. Just maybe he did work on Jackson for another 45 minutes?

Wow, found another link for you to read:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530242,00.html
According to federal drug regulations, Michael Jackson's personal physician couldn’t legally prescribe even a powerful cough medicine for the King of Pop in California, and he couldn’t go to the pharmacy to get drugs for him, either.

Federal authorities told FOXNews.com that Dr. Conrad Murray is not licensed to administer certain levels of controlled medications in the state, and that if he gave Demerol or Oxycontin to Jackson, as has been reported, it would have been illegal.

To possess the drugs in California, Murray would have had to bring them with him from Nevada or Texas, which is illegal, or administer drugs that other doctors had provided locally or that Jackson had ordered online from abroad, which is also illegal.

"The intravenous anesthetic Propofol, whose brand name is Diprivan, is not classified by the DEA as a scheduled drug, due to the rarity of its abuse and the dangerous level of potency and monitoring involved in administering the drug, which normally occurs only in a hospital setting."

my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Exactly, once they arrived at UCLA Murray had no standing as a doctor.

Also.. I believe his priviledges had been revoked at the hospital where he once did have standing. (I know I spelled that word wrong)

[ScoobyDoo]

I don't care where he was licensed. How does this put a new twist on anything?

No way was there time for him to pull out his license, show it to the doctor in charge in the emergency room, and take a position at the table resuscitating Mr Jackson. That's ludicrous. They would have had their own team and their own people who they are use to working with and do the job well. The teams resuscitating have one doctor in charge barking out the orders. There is no way another doctor would have been there confusing everything. The only way he was assisting is answering questions the emergency room doctor or a nurse might have asked him. GMAB

If Mr Jackson had been dead for three hours there is no way the emergency room doctor or nurses would have tried to resuscitate him.
They would have known he was way too far gone.

in my opinion


I don't recall UCLA hospital has ever made any official statement regarding its treatment of Michael Jackson. Is there a link ?

[retiredcop]

Also.. I believe his priviledges had been revoked at the hospital where he once did have standing. (I know I spelled that word wrong)

What's the relevance to this information and what is being discussed?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I don't recall UCLA hospital has ever made any official statement regarding its treatment of Michael Jackson. Is there a link ?


No. I don't have a link to common sense. If I did, you'd be the first I'd give it to.:biggrin:


in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

[QUOTE=daniel green;13372284]Even if Murray was asleep on the job, that doesn't rise to a crime.
snipped

QUOTE]

In Colorado it does


a Colorado anesthesiologist convicted of reckless manslaughter for allegedly falling asleep during a routine ear operation on a child

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/179/2/331

[ScoobyDoo]

What's the relevance to this information and what is being discussed?

in my opinion

How are your snide remarks in any way relevant?

[retiredcop]

I don't think the ER team worked on him for three hours. The UCLA team held off on officially pronouncing him dead until Jackson's mother arrived.

That's not what my post said. They worked on him for over an hour. Why would they have done that if Mr Jackson was supposedly dead already for three hours as some posters believe he was?

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

That's not what my post said. They worked on him for over an hour. Why would they have done that if Mr Jackson was supposedly dead already for three hours as some posters believe he was?

in my opinion

How do you know how long they worked on him?

[retiredcop]

Excuse me but you seem to be agruing a point that I didn't make. Please don't quote me and refer to something I haven't said.

Yes you did. That's why I quoted you. You said he was licensed in CA and that puts a whole new twist on things. What were you referring to then? What was being discussed or something else?



Originally Posted by Eagleeye View Post
Well it seems that Dr. Conrad Murray is licensed to practice in the State of California as an out of State physician. This to me puts a whole new twist on things and his license is still current in California as of today.

Conrad Robert Murray California Out of State License No. G71169
Address: Po Box xxxxxx, Las Vegas NV xxxxx
Current as of: 8/17/09

http://licenselookup.mbc.ca.gov/licenselookup/search.php

Type in Murray, Conrad

[retiredcop]

How do you know how long they worked on him?

It was said on the news the same day he died. You don't remember that? I do.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

It was said on the news the same day he died. You don't remember that? I do.

in my opinion


Who said it?

[retiredcop]

Personally, I don't believe that UCLA worked on him at all, other than to verify his vitals (or lack thereof), confirm his identity, dictate the chart as to what was found from the time he arrived and so forth.

Personally, I believe that the pronouncement was held until family was notified and Mrs. Jackson arrived at UCLA. There may have been further delay due to the removal of any tubes, equipment or visible trauma before the family arrived.

Personally, I believe Michael had been dead for three hours or so due to the time of the alleged phone call from Dr. Murray to Houston.

Personally, I believe that TMZ had it right all along for the very reason that people hate them; that being that they are right on the scene, day or night, of anything or anyone who has the potential to be hot news and because Harvey Levin pays people very, very well to get it right.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/media-reports-that-michael-jackson-94914.aspx

UCLA Newsroom > Health Sciences > Featured News
Statement on the death of Michael Jackson at UCLA Medical Center
By
UCLA Newsroom
| 6/25/2009 7:05:41 PM
The family of Michael Jackson made this brief statement available on June 25 at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center:

The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home. However, the cause of his death is unknown until results of the autopsy are known.

His personal physician, who was with him at the time, attempted to resuscitate Jackson, as did paramedics who transported him to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center. Upon arriving at the hospital at approximately 1:14 p.m., a team of doctors, including emergency physicians and cardiologists, attempted to resuscitate him for a period of more than one hour but were unsuccessful.

Jackson’s family requests that the media respect their privacy during this tragic period of time.

Video: Jermaine Jackson reading statement and Michael Jackson's personal physician.

For more news, visit the UCLA Newsroom.

[retiredcop]

Who said it?

Post #115:rolleyes:

[retiredcop]

This Press Release comes from the Jackson family. It is not an official account of what happened once Michael Jackson arrived at UCLA.

By
UCLA Newsroom
:tonguewag:

[Emerald]

Didn't the Jackson Family have a 2nd autopsy done by a source independent of the LAME?

(LAME :lol:. Didn't even realize it until I reread the post)

[Firehead11]

From one of your favorite sources.

Common sense (or, when used attributively as an adjective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective), commonsense, common-sense, or commonsensical), based on a strict construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_(logic)) of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense)" as their common natural understanding. Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) or propositions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_(philosophy)) that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence) and of sound judgment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment), without reliance on esoteric knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_knowledge) or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge) held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience) which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation) have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

It would appear that the part I bolded would indicate from the general responses to your posts you don't fit the profile that consists of what people in common would agree on. It amazes me that the majority of your posts are so hostile. The common interest here is to find out what happened to MJ and whether there should be criminal charges brought against anyone responsible if he died at the hands of another. Of course you know that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. It is not necessarily the content of your posts about this case that is offensive, it is your tone.

Eagle, I wouldn't even bother. Been there, done that.

[retiredcop]

no, it said statement made by Jackson family.

OMG It's coming from and approved by the UCLA newsroom!!!:hammer

[Firehead11]

Didn't the Jackson Family have a 2nd autopsy done by a source independent of the LAME?

(LAME :lol:. Didn't even realize it until I reread the post)

Yes they did. They never released the information what was found. I do not know the reason for that but I can only SPECULATE that LE has asked them to keep the info to themselves.

[ScoobyDoo]

OMG It's coming from and approved by the UCLA newsroom!!!:hammer

I'd bet that if Dr. Murray had told the truth about the events leading up to arriving at the hospital, they wouldn't have attempted to save him. If they worked on him it was because Dr. Murray told them he had a pulse, instead of he'd been dead for hours while Dr. Murray cleaned up the scene.

[Eagleeye]

By
UCLA Newsroom
:tonguewag:

That was a statement by the Jackson family through the UCLA Medical Center Newsroom. Not a statement from the Hospital itself.

[Abbie]

Why would the emergency room team work on someone who was dead for three hours? Do you think emergency rooms have time to put on a show.:biggrin:

in my opinion

FWIW I don't think ER hosp personel "worked on" MJ for hours, I beleive he arrived DOA and the hospital was well aware of that, the extra time was necessary to gather the family and get the media and LE in place before announcing MJ's death.
MJ's doc was supposedly a cardiologist, although he was a cardiologist who was not aware that CPR has to be given on a flat surface. Also, the "address" excuse is lame, 911 can tell from what address a call is coming from. I think he did alot of scene re-staging for Covering his own rear -end purposes.
Also, no hospital would allow Dr Murry to breeze into th ER doing CPR or barking orders, most especially if this doc was not employed by the hospital. This "doctors' legal responsibility for MJ ended when the paramedics transferred him to the hospital.
I am sure some time was spent in the house due to MJ's celebrity as to how it was going to "go down'. prior to calling 911 or anyone else coming to the scene. Why did Dr Murray call out for Prince? What a horrible thing for a 12 yr old boy to witness- MJ's dead body, sans wig apparently. Poor kid.

JMHO.

[retiredcop]

That was a statement by the Jackson family through the UCLA Medical Center Newsroom. Not a statement from the Hospital itself.

So are you saying the family lied and the UCLA Newsroom just didn't care?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I'd bet that if Dr. Murray had told the truth about the events leading up to arriving at the hospital, they wouldn't have attempted to save him. If they worked on him it was because Dr. Murray told them he had a pulse, instead of he'd been dead for hours while Dr. Murray cleaned up the scene.

That would only apply if the doctors were so stupid they couldn't tell he was way to far gone to attempt to resuscitate him. Like three hours gone.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

no, what she is saying is don't believe everything you hear and read in the press, said to the press, or represented to the press, especially when it involves celebrity and scandal

So you think the statement was a lie too? The family lied?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

FWIW I don't think ER hosp personel "worked on" MJ for hours, I beleive he arrived DOA and the hospital was well aware of that, the extra time was necessary to gather the family and get the media and LE in place before announcing MJ's death.
MJ's doc was supposedly a cardiologist, although he was a cardiologist who was not aware that CPR has to be given on a flat surface. Also, the "address" excuse is lame, 911 can tell from what address a call is coming from. I think he did alot of scene re-staging for Covering his own rear -end purposes.
Also, no hospital would allow Dr Murry to breeze into th ER doing CPR or barking orders, most especially if this doc was not employed by the hospital. This "doctors' legal responsibility for MJ ended when the paramedics transferred him to the hospital.
I am sure some time was spent in the house due to MJ's celebrity as to how it was going to "go down'. prior to calling 911 or anyone else coming to the scene. Why did Dr Murray call out for Prince? What a horrible thing for a 12 yr old boy to witness- MJ's dead body, sans wig apparently. Poor kid.

JMHO.

I don't agree. The emergency room doctors worked on him for over an hour. He hadn't been dead for 3 hours.

in my opinion

[Eagleeye]

So are you saying the family lied and the UCLA Newsroom just didn't care?

in my opinion

How you got that from my post I can't imagine..:confused:

[retiredcop]

OK, how's this link?

http://www.nme.com/news/michael-jackson/45618

[Eagleeye]

[quote=retiredcop;13372636]Yes you did. That's why I quoted you. You said he was licensed in CA and that puts a whole new twist on things. What were you referring to then? What was being discussed or something else?

As usual, you snipped the part of my post I was referring to. My second and third paragraph.

[retiredcop]

Here's another link. How about this one?

http://www.sheknows.com/articles/809604.htm

[ScoobyDoo]

I don't agree. The emergency room doctors worked on him for over an hour. He hadn't been dead for 3 hours.

in my opinion



Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/92

[retiredcop]

same statement reproduced on a celebrity gossip website that has a whole section called "Drink, Drugs and ReHab" and another called "Hookups, Breakups and Babies".

It's true. They worked on him for over an hour. No getting around that no matter what you think of the links. You are grasping at straws. I don't know why or what you're trying to prove. GMAB

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/92

From your link:


Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."

They sure didn't say he was dead for 3 hours. By the way, flat line is what paddles are for. Didn't they have them? Why work on a frail old sickly man anyway, it's time for them to go.


in my opinion

[retiredcop]

same statement reproduced on a celebrity gossip website that has a whole section called "Drink, Drugs and ReHab" and another called "Hookups, Breakups and Babies".

One more time. It was released by the hospital. They approved it. If they didn't, they would not have released it.

in my opinion

[forensicpsy~]

http://www.anesthesiologistassistant.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85

"At the present time the package insert for propofol (diprivan) states:

"For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (CAC) sedation; Diprivan Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia snf not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure."

[retiredcop]

[quote=retiredcop;13372636]Yes you did. That's why I quoted you. You said he was licensed in CA and that puts a whole new twist on things. What were you referring to then? What was being discussed or something else?

As usual, you snipped the part of my post I was referring to. My second and third paragraph.

I don't snip posts, but you just snipped my post here. I cut and pasted your entire post in my answer to you.

in my opinion

[forensicpsy~]

Thanks for the Link, forensic... very interesting reading..

Poochie

You're very welcome.

[Rayosunshine]

TY for the link.

WOW i wonder how long MJ was dead before 911 was called.

You would think the ME could narrow the time down by core body temperature, considering the ambient temperature of the room he was in. Seems like I heard or read somewhere that his temp was very very low when EMT arrived. That would be very telling. That Doc is a Murderer with a capital "M".

[Rayosunshine]

Do you seriously believe if Mr Jackson was dead for hours and even had blood pooling the emergency room physicians and nurses would have worked on him for an hour to try to revive him?

Are the doctors and nurses at the hospital in a giant conspiracy with Dr Murray? GMAB

in my opinion

I understand what you are saying, but I also can imagine the scenario where victim arrives unresponsive to the ER with personal physician and physician is telling staff that this just happened. When the Doctor speaks, you might as well believe "the great one above" has spoken.

Edited to add: The hospital was making sure they didn't do anything that would result in a lawsuit.

[Emerald]

I'd bet that if Dr. Murray had told the truth about the events leading up to arriving at the hospital, they wouldn't have attempted to save him. If they worked on him it was because Dr. Murray told them he had a pulse, instead of he'd been dead for hours while Dr. Murray cleaned up the scene.

JMO

That bevy of medical professionals would have been able to surmise whether MJ had been dead for hours before arriving at the med center.

[Cindylee]

Updates from TMZ on the court hearing today.

Home >> Michael Jackson >> Michael Jackson Merchandise Hearing
Michael Jackson Merchandise Hearing

Posted Aug 17th 2009 6:00PM by TMZ Staff

The lawyer for Michael Jackson's kids is set to appear in court for the first time today, as lawyers for the estate and Katherine Jackson's lawyers try to reach an agreement on merchandising all things Michael.

We'll update this post with all the developments ... KEEP REFRESHING THE PAGE.

UPDATE 7:03 PM -- The judge has set an evidentiary hearing for Friday -- so it looks the AEG deal won't be approved (or denied) until then.

UPDATE 6:45 PM -- An attorney for AEG says the company wants the deal taken care of this week.

UPDATE 6:41 PM -- And we're back on the record.

UPDATE 6:34 PM -- The judge has ordered a short recess in the hopes all sides can reach an agreement on the AEG deal today.

UPDATE 6:32 PM -- The lawyer representing Jackson's kids isn't sure the AEG deal is the best deal out there.

UPDATE 6:24 PM -- One of the lawyers for the special administrators is worried that if the AEG deal isn't approved soon, AEG will pull it off the table.

UPDATE 6:15 PM -- All parties involved continue to express the time constraint they are under -- everyone wants the deals done ASAP.

UPDATE 6:10 PM -- The attorney for the kids just said she is not objecting the AEG deal.

UPDATE 6:05 PM -- An attorney for Katherine just suggested the lawyers for estate have pulled the guardian ad litem towards their side.

UPDATE 5:58 PM -- The deal with Bravado, to produce various different kinds of Jackson memorabilia, has been approved. This deal will generate millions of dollars for the Jackson estate.

UPDATE 5:50 PM -- Howard Weitzman, the attorney for the special administrators, has stated that one of the beneficiaries approves the AEG deal (to put on a Jackson memorabilia tour), but one is against it. We've been hearing Katherine is not happy about the arrangement, so she is probably the one who has objected.

UPDATE 5:35 PM -- The judge has set a tentative date (September 9) to hear Katherine's safe harbor petition. What that means is that Katherine wants to file an objection to the special administrators, but doesn't want to do so if it would be considered protesting the will. Jackson's will contains a no-contest clause -- meaning anyone who challenges it loses their inheritance rights.

UPDATE 5:30 PM -- The judge said that if it weren't for Katherine Jackson's procedural posturing, both parties would not have to spend as much time in court.

UPDATE 5:13 PM -- The judge said he agrees with Lodise -- there needs to be a simpler process put in place so the special administrators of Jackson's estate don't have to go before the judge to do every single thing.

UPDATE 5:11 PM -- The judge wants to come up with a trial date for Katherine Jackson's objection to the permanent appointment of the special administrators.

UPDATE 5:10 PM -- Margaret Lodise, the guardian ad litem for Jackson's kids, has submitted a report to the court.

UPDATE 4:57 PM -- The lawyers are getting into place.

UPDATE 4:47 PM -- Claire Elisabeth Fields Cruise, the woman who claims to be the bio mom of MJ's kids, is in the courtroom. Let the fun begin!

[Rayosunshine]

http://www.anesthesiologistassistant.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85

"At the present time the package insert for propofol (diprivan) states:

"For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (CAC) sedation; Diprivan Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia snf not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure."

wonder if the insert has always said that? bet it has.

[retiredcop]

I understand what you are saying, but I also can imagine the scenario where victim arrives unresponsive to the ER with personal physician and physician is telling staff that this just happened. When the Doctor speaks, you might as well believe "the great one above" has spoken.

Edited to add: The hospital was making sure they didn't do anything that would result in a lawsuit.

3 hours?? He would have been beginning to smell from gases building up. They start to smell very very fast.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

More from TMZ.com

Michael Jackson's Doc Sued for Eviction

Posted Aug 17th 2009 1:20PM by TMZ Staff

Michael Jackson's Doc Sued for EvictionDr. Arnold Klein -- Michael Jackson's doctor for decades -- has been sued for eviction from his Beverly Hills medical offices.

According to the documents, filed August 6 in L.A. County Superior Court, Dr. Klein failed to pay July rent, totaling $28,515.69. The lawsuit alleges the owners of the building gave Klein the first 5 days of August to make good on his rent, but the doc didn't, so the landlord sued for eviction.

But Dr. Klein redeemed himself. The landlord's lawyer told us Dr. Klein paid the back rent on August 10 and the landlord's lawyer will dismiss the case this week.

The L.A. County Coroner has requested files from Dr. Klein on Michael Jackson's treatments at his office.

No word on why the landlord was all business with a long-term client and moved so quickly to file legal papers.

As for Dr. Klein, we left word with his lawyer but so far no comment.

[Xenam]

In our litigious society I just find it strange that any hospital would accept at face value someone’s claim to be a licensed physician and allow him to treat a patient. Can you imagine the lawsuits if that person lied and something went very wrong?

At least in this case something went wrong before MJ arrived at UCLA.

This is just my speculation: I believe when MJ arrived at the emergency room -- the ER doctors did whatever they do to and realized he was dead. Dr. Murray was in denial -- afraid -- and just continued to to try to resuscitate him - thus the strangeness IMO as to what the ER doctors witnessed. They pronounced him dead later only because they were waiting for the family who were enroute to the hospital. His attorney also made a statement that he "continued" CPR in the ambulance (not the paramedics). JMO


"After the ambulance arrived, says Chernoff, Murray spoke to doctors at UCLA, who instructed the paramedics to administer an epinephrine shot directly to Jackson's heart in an attempt to revive him."

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20288368,00.html

[Xenam]

According to federal drug regulations, Michael Jackson's personal physician couldn’t legally prescribe even a powerful cough medicine for the King of Pop in California, and he couldn’t go to the pharmacy to get drugs for him, either.

To possess the drugs in California, Murray would have had to bring them with him from Nevada or Texas, which is illegal, or administer drugs that other doctors had provided locally or that Jackson had ordered online from abroad, which is also illegal.

“Dr. Murray has DEA registration numbers in Nevada and Texas, but he does not have one in California,” a federal law enforcement official told FOXNews.com. “You absolutely have to have a registration number to prescribe controlled substances

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530242,00.html

[Firehead11]

My friends husband had a massive heart attack and basically died when he lowed the lawn. EMS arrived and worked on him while in transport to local hospital. When he arrived at the hospital, they continued to work on him for over an hour, knowing full well that he would be brain damaged if they somehow suceeded.

IIRC, the room in which MJ was found was "extremely hot" according to reports. Would that affect the body's core temp?

[retiredcop]

This is just my speculation: I believe when MJ arrived at the emergency room -- the ER doctors did whatever they do to and realized he was dead. Dr. Murray was in denial -- afraid -- and just continued to to try to resuscitate him - thus the strangeness IMO as to what the ER doctors witnessed. JMO

We don't know what the ER doctors witnessed other than speculation. The link says the ER doctors worked on him for over an hour. There is no way he was dead for three hours. If he had of been dead that long the ER doctors would have known. Dr Murray is NOT on staff there. He did no hands on resuscitation in that hospital. We have been over all of this in thread today. When the ER doctors called it it was over.

in my opinion

[Xenam]

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/media-reports-that-michael-jackson-94914.aspx

UCLA Newsroom > Health Sciences > Featured News
Statement on the death of Michael Jackson at UCLA Medical Center
By
UCLA Newsroom
| 6/25/2009 7:05:41 PM
The family of Michael Jackson made this brief statement available on June 25 at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center:

The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home. However, the cause of his death is unknown until results of the autopsy are known.

His personal physician, who was with him at the time, attempted to resuscitate Jackson, as did paramedics who transported him to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center. Upon arriving at the hospital at approximately 1:14 p.m., a team of doctors, including emergency physicians and cardiologists, attempted to resuscitate him for a period of more than one hour but were unsuccessful.

Jackson’s family requests that the media respect their privacy during this tragic period of time.

Video: Jermaine Jackson reading statement and Michael Jackson's personal physician.

For more news, visit the UCLA Newsroom.

You are kidding right? Dr Murray is the one who spoke to the family when they arrived later not the ER doctors. The statement was made by the family based on the info that Dr Murray told them and if the reports are true -- Dr Murray was still "working" on him even though he was already dead. JMO

[Xenam]

My guess...the smell coming from Murray's pants over powered all. imo

LMAO!!!! :lol:

[forensicpsy~]

wonder if the insert has always said that? bet it has.


I believe it has. They wanted to change it in 2005 but never did.

imo

[Eagleeye]

3 hours?? He would have been beginning to smell from gases building up. They start to smell very very fast.

in my opinion

Give us a break. My mother passed away in her bed very early in the morning. It was five hours before the mortuary arrived to pick her up. There was absolutely no smell. Where do you get this nonsense?

[Cindylee]

IMO Any statement from any member of the Jackson clan is suspect.

Just heard that there is no service at Forest Lawn that would have MJ on ice. He's not buried and according to Katherine, she's too devastated to make any decisions right now. ( In reality, she's too busy worried about how to get more control of the $$$ imo)

She sure isn't so devastated that she can't have her attnys. asking for her to be a co-executor of his will.
TMZ is streaming live now. Kathrine's attnys. are speaking now.

[Roxxanne]

Give us a break. My mother passed away in her bed very early in the morning. It was five hours before the mortuary arrived to pick her up. There was absolutely no smell. Where do you get this nonsense?

Absolutely agree. My Aunt passed at home.We waited for my cousin, hospice and the mortuary people to get there. Plus it took awhile before my cousin would agree to let her go. Don't remember how long, but it was some hours. No smell.

[Cindylee]

The attnys are saying that AEG paid for the house in Holmby Hills, and for Dr. Murray. :confused: I thought AEG said MJ was paying for that.
That is the attnys for KJ.

[retiredcop]

IMO Any statement from any member of the Jackson clan is suspect.

Just heard that there is no service at Forest Lawn that would have MJ on ice. He's not buried and according to Katherine, she's too devastated to make any decisions right now. ( In reality, she's too busy worried about how to get more control of the $$$ imo)

Except it came through the UCLA Newsroom and they no doubt read it and approved it since part of the statement involved their ER room.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

She's just precious, isn't she?

She sure is. They need to get this man buried.

[Cindylee]

My guess...the smell coming from Murray's pants over powered all. imo

:lol: That was funny.

[retiredcop]

My friends husband had a massive heart attack and basically died when he lowed the lawn. EMS arrived and worked on him while in transport to local hospital. When he arrived at the hospital, they continued to work on him for over an hour, knowing full well that he would be brain damaged if they somehow suceeded.

IIRC, the room in which MJ was found was "extremely hot" according to reports. Would that affect the body's core temp?

It would sure make him decompose faster. Never mind the core temp. How was he brain damaged if EMS got there withing 4 to 6 minuets?
That room was always hot right? Didn't Mr Jackson always feel cold?
If he had been dead for three hours he really would have shown decomposition in a hot room.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Blackbird,

You need to stop personal attacks. That's against tos. That's why I didn't quote your post.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Absolutely agree. My Aunt passed at home.We waited for my cousin, hospice and the mortuary people to get there. Plus it took awhile before my cousin would agree to let her go. Don't remember how long, but it was some hours. No smell.

I do have an answer for that but it is too gross to post here and you both are talking about relatives.

in my opinion

[Eagleeye]

It would sure make him decompose faster. Never mind the core temp. How was he brain damaged if EMS got there withing 4 to 6 minuets?
That room was always hot right? Didn't Mr Jackson always feel cold?
If he had been dead for three hours he really would have shown decomposition in a hot room.

in my opinion

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. :rolleyes:

[retiredcop]

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. :rolleyes:

Is that your way of having a discussion?:biggrin:

in my opinion

[Eagleeye]

Is that your way of having a discussion?:biggrin:

in my opinion

As far as you are concerned, YES. I am totally through trying to communicate with you as you are never wrong and know everything about all things. I am not a fisherman so I don't need any bait. Have a nice evening.

[Cindylee]

So, what do you all think about KJ being so devestated that she can't bury her son, but is very involved with the estate? In fact wants to be more involved. :wink:

[retiredcop]

you don't have an answer for that.

if you did you would post it.

yes, extreme heat can lead to a rapid acceleration of the decomposition process; however, not as rapid as you would like us to believe.

yes, certain open wounds or trauma can also lead to rapid accelaration; however, that is not the issue in the Jackson case.

I am in total agreement that was not the issue in the Jackson case. He was not decomposing at all. He was worked on by EMS and by the ER doctors for over an hour. The ER doctors called it. The ER doctors would have known if he had been dead for three hours and would not have worked on him.

in my opinion

[Xenam]

The whole thing is odd and it will be interesting to find out just exactly what happened, if we ever get to. I could see a family member wanting resuscitation to continue indefinitely but for a doctor that does seem strange. I suppose it's safe to assume they knew Murray was a doctor right from the get-go? He most certainly would have announced that.........or the EMTs would have told them ??? JMO

The 911 call indicated that MJ's personal physician was with him and was attempting CPR.

[Xenam]

I am in total agreement that was not the issue in the Jackson case. He was not decomposing at all. He was worked on by EMS and by the ER doctors for over an hour. The ER doctors called it.

in my opinion

I think you missed this rc. If MJ showed any signs of livor mortis whether it was 20 minutes or 3 hours and the paramedics noticed it that means he was DEAD before he left the house. JMO

[Cindylee]

The 911 call indicated that MJ's personal physician was with him and was attempting CPR.

I am sure he was either LOOKING like he was trying CPR, or he was actually trying, but I do think he was long dead by that time.

[Cindylee]

I think you missed this rc. If MJ showed any signs of livor mortis whether it was 20 minutes or 3 hours and the paramedics noticed it that means he was DEAD before he left the house. JMO

He was DEAD before he left the house. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis


Livor mortis or postmortem lividity or hypostasis (Latin: livor—bluish color, mortis—of death), one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed.

Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. The presence of livor mortis is an indication of when it would be irrelevant to begin CPR, or when it is ineffective to continue it if it is in progress. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on the deceased's back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up).

Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body.

I am just now coming on line today but I find the part I have bolded very interesting.

imo

[retiredcop]

I am sure he was either LOOKING like he was trying CPR, or he was actually trying, but I do think he was long dead by that time.

I can't believe the ER doctors didn't notice he was dead for over three hours. Just like I can't believe Dr Murray was pretending to give CPR after he was dead for three hours. Dr Murray of all people would know he couldn't get away with that.

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

My friends husband had a massive heart attack and basically died when he lowed the lawn. EMS arrived and worked on him while in transport to local hospital. When he arrived at the hospital, they continued to work on him for over an hour, knowing full well that he would be brain damaged if they somehow suceeded.

IIRC, the room in which MJ was found was "extremely hot" according to reports. Would that affect the body's core temp?

I am quoting myself, been a long day here. He mowed the lawn, I have no idea how to lowed a lawn.

[Cindylee]

I can't believe the ER doctors didn't notice he was dead for over three hours. Just like I can't believe Dr Murray was pretending to give CPR after he was dead for three hours. Dr Murray of all people would know he couldn't get away with that.

in my opinion

I am not saying he was dead for 3 hours. Just that he was dead.

[Xenam]

3 hours?? He would have been beginning to smell from gases building up. They start to smell very very fast.

in my opinion

It takes at least 12 hours for a body to become "ripe" and start to smell or 24-48 hours if you are a neighbor. :ohmy:


http://tinyurl.com/qvm7nm

http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZXt-aJlmX4C&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=when+does+a+dead+body+start+to+smell&source=bl&ots=u2PIyXJ54R&sig=UFbqOtGVYjlgsMJtPfHDTg3NA2U&hl=en&ei=WvmJSpiYNovmMfSI1cgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[GentleBreeze]

Give us a break. My mother passed away in her bed very early in the morning. It was five hours before the mortuary arrived to pick her up. There was absolutely no smell. Where do you get this nonsense?

The same happen to my father and he most certainly didn't smell and this was in the wintertime and the hospital had the heat on.

Some seem to want us to believe bodies start to deteriorate immediately and start dissolving before our very eyes like they do in some ghoulish horror flick. Nonsense, imo.

imo

[Xenam]

I am not saying he was dead for 3 hours. Just that he was dead.

I am thinking he may have been dead at least 30 minutes before Dr Murray called his office workers to have items removed from his storage unit so at least 3 or more hours IF the storage unit is related. I suppose the coroner can give an estimate based on rigor as well. JMO

[retiredcop]

I am not saying he was dead for 3 hours. Just that he was dead.

He was dead in the sense there was no bringing him back. I do give credit to the ER for trying. They wouldn't try that long for any of us mere mortals. Since Mr Jackson had continuous CPR, there was always a chance with no brain damage. This is why I don't believe there was any lividity. The blood was constantly moving with CPR. We don't know what EMS saw because the report is being held.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

Personally, I don't believe that UCLA worked on him at all, other than to verify his vitals (or lack thereof), confirm his identity, dictate the chart as to what was found from the time he arrived and so forth.

Personally, I believe that the pronouncement was held until family was notified and Mrs. Jackson arrived at UCLA. There may have been further delay due to the removal of any tubes, equipment or visible trauma before the family arrived.

Personally, I believe Michael had been dead for three hours or so due to the time of the alleged phone call from Dr. Murray to Houston.

Personally, I believe that TMZ had it right all along for the very reason that people hate them; that being that they are right on the scene, day or night, of anything or anyone who has the potential to be hot news and because Harvey Levin pays people very, very well to get it right.

If Murray called his Texas office at about 9:30 AM, was it 9:30 Texas time or California time? If it was Texas time it was only 7:30 California time.

[GentleBreeze]

IMO That's why Murray continued with chest compressions, and cranked the heat...to minimize it as much as possible. I think he was way long dead...more than 5 hours. My guess...4-5

I think so too and I still want to know what calls they found on his cell phone and when and to whom.

It bothers me that he only lived 8 miles for MJs home and his girlfriend lives in Santa Monica too. Did he do a little run over to his baby mama's house and then come back when he thought MJ would be waking up, thinking MJ wouldn't know about it?

I think he put him under and then abandoned him and did something else and only returned when he thought it was around the time MJ would be coming out from under it.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I don't think dissolving ....but it does begin to break down. And there is a particular odor that comes out of the mouth if someone is compressing the chest. IMO

I don't know but..

It takes around 12 hours for the body to begin to smell.

I stood right in the hpspital room with the door shut as the hospital staff feverishly worked on my aunt trying to save her. I did not smell an odor of any kind.

imo

[retiredcop]

That's exactly why I believe Murray continued with CPR. I do think it was intermittantly from around 9am while he thought, made calls, etc...It was only done with great gusto when his audience arrived. imo

Hmmmm I wonder if that would work? To continue to do CPR for a few hours on a dead body? Interesting thought.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Hmmmm I wonder if that would work? To continue to do CPR for a few hours on a dead body? Interesting thought.

in my opinion

I am thinking she means pretending to do CPR when it was time to call for help.....after he cleaned up what he could.

[Xenam]

If Murray called his Texas office at about 9:30 AM, was it 9:30 Texas time or California time? If it was Texas time it was only 7:30 California time.

It was 9:22AM PST

The manager of the storage facility tells us the two sisters came to Dr. Murray's unit at 9:22 AM Los Angeles time the day Jackson died and picked up 3 - 5 boxes, in addition to other items they carried out by hand. The manager says she personally spoke with both sisters at the facility.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/30/Michael-jackson-died-storage-unit-facility-dr-conrad-murray-laquisha-laquanda/

[Xenam]

Hmmm - this more recent one says it was Houston time:

The manager of the storage facility tells us two women, whom she believed at the time to be Laquisha and LaQuanda, arrived at 9:22 AM (Houston time) and picked up 3-5 boxes, as well as other items.

Joseph told us LaQuisha got the call at around 9 AM Houston time. That is 7 AM Los Angeles time, more than 5 hours before Dr. Murray called 911.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-employee-boxes-propofol/

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Hmmm - this more recent one says it was Houston time:

The manager of the storage facility tells us two women, whom she believed at the time to be Laquisha and LaQuanda, arrived at 9:22 AM (Houston time) and picked up 3-5 boxes, as well as other items.

Joseph told us LaQuisha got the call at around 9 AM Houston time. That is 7 AM Los Angeles time, more than 5 hours before Dr. Murray called 911.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-employee-boxes-propofol/

Hummmm"X"..what does that say about Dr.Murray sleeping in???kinda blows thattheoryoutthe window..IF he can be on the phone to hs ffice back then..then why can he even try to make the excuse he found MJU ursponsive at 1130 AM LA time..This is noteven understandable..THIS guy..Conrad Murray,,not only was neglient..he also attempted to alter the scene, hide inculoatory evidence/information....

BTW..just where did that story come from that MJ's son witnessed his father's collapse??Man oh man..MJ was Dead many hours before any 911.....Just not acceptable for me!! But I am a tough audiance!!

LMS

[Unperson1984]

I can't believe the ER doctors didn't notice he was dead for over three hours. Just like I can't believe Dr Murray was pretending to give CPR after he was dead for three hours. Dr Murray of all people would know he couldn't get away with that.

in my opinion

I found this very informative site and within three hours of death changes occur in a body that any EMT or ER doctor would recognize at once.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/ta_time_since_death.htm

"The eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred."

"Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours"

The site also explains that rigor mortis is faster in a warm environment, slower when it's cold. So I don't think MJ could have been dead for very long before the EMT arrived. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Hummmm"X"..what does that say about Dr.Murray sleeping in???kinda blows thattheoryoutthe window..IF he can be on the phone to hs ffice back then..then why can he even try to make the excuse he found MJU unresponsive at 1130 AM LA time..This is not even understandable..THIS guy..Conrad Murray,,not only was neglient..he also attempted to alter the scene, hide inculoatory evidence/information....

BTW..just where did that story come from that MJ's son witnessed his father's collapse??Man oh man..MJ was Dead many hours before any 911.....Just not acceptable for me!! But I am a tough audiance!!

LMS

Lynda, let me ask you something, please.

I keep reading that one does not do CPR if the patient has a pulse?

Is that true and if so could it damage the heart?

TIA

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

Hummmm"X"..what does that say about Dr.Murray sleeping in???kinda blows thattheoryoutthe window..IF he can be on the phone to hs ffice back then..then why can he even try to make the excuse he found MJU ursponsive at 1130 AM LA time..This is noteven understandable..THIS guy..Conrad Murray,,not only was neglient..he also attempted to alter the scene, hide inculoatory evidence/information....

BTW..just where did that story come from that MJ's son witnessed his father's collapse??Man oh man..MJ was Dead many hours before any 911.....Just not acceptable for me!! But I am a tough audiance!!

LMS

Question for you Lynda:

Dr. Murray claimed that when he found Michael, he wasn't breathing, but he had a faint heart beat. Why wouldn't he have done something to start the breathing, but instead did CPR, if he still had a heartbeat?

[Unperson1984]

It could be done by Murray being MJ's heart and manually pumping the blood through. The CPR.

But without breathing the heart wouldn't be pumping oxygenated blood, so the body would still go through the process of decomposition.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

True and true...a person with a pulse, but not breathing gets only "rescue breaths"

Hmmmm.

Thanks LQ.

All this CPR was nothing more than for show, imo.

imo

[daniel green]

Excellent link. I especially hope Nurse Lee gets banged for violating HIPAA and throwing herself all over the news for her own purposes which was publicity for her web site business.
snipped

Indeed, RetiredCop.

[ScoobyDoo]

Give us a break. My mother passed away in her bed very early in the morning. It was five hours before the mortuary arrived to pick her up. There was absolutely no smell. Where do you get this nonsense?


I'm very sorry to hear about your Mother.
:rose:

[retiredcop]

The same happen to my father and he most certainly didn't smell and this was in the wintertime and the hospital had the heat on.

Some seem to want us to believe bodies start to deteriorate immediately and start dissolving before our very eyes like they do in some ghoulish horror flick. Nonsense, imo.

imo

A body begins to decompose when death occurs.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

If Dr. Murray did all the clean up that has been reported, why would he not 'clean up' the propofol evidence?

snipped

Why, it was Murray, himself, who led the police BACK to the rented house to find the diprivan where he told them it was--in the closet.

[ScoobyDoo]

I can't believe the ER doctors didn't notice he was dead for over three hours. Just like I can't believe Dr Murray was pretending to give CPR after he was dead for three hours. Dr Murray of all people would know he couldn't get away with that.in my opinion


I don't think he got away with it, hence the homicide investigation.

[Unperson1984]

I'm not saying it wouldn't.

I am saying it would slow the appearance of livor mortis. imo

I found the change in the eyes very interesting, and without oxygen impossible to stop. Certainly the EMTs would have checked his pupils and noticed the cloudiness if MJ had been dead for three hours.

[retiredcop]

I found this very informative site and within three hours of death changes occur in a body that any EMT or ER doctor would recognize at once.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/ta_time_since_death.htm

"The eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred."

"Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours"

The site also explains that rigor mortis is faster in a warm environment, slower when it's cold. So I don't think MJ could have been dead for very long before the EMT arrived. IMO

Excellent link. Thank you. I don't believe he was dead long at all. The ER doctors saw nothing if they started resuscitation and kept going for over an hour.

Also I don't believe the EMTs saw anything either. That is just speculation anyway.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Why, it was Murray, himself, who led the police BACK to the rented house to find the diprivan where he told them it was--in the closet.


Its common practice for the police to tell a suspect that he can make it easier on himself if he tells where the drugs are, because they are going to find it anyway.

[retiredcop]

I don't think he got away with it, hence the homicide investigation.

No, I don't think he did anything to have to get away with it. That was the point of my post.

Again, we went over this. It is a death investigation at this time.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

I found the change in the eyes very interesting, and without oxygen impossible to stop. Certainly the EMTs would have checked his pupils and noticed the cloudiness if MJ had been dead for three hours.


Perhaps thats why the EMT's wanted Michael declared dead, but Dr. Murray refused.

[daniel green]

UPDATE 5:30 PM -- The judge said that if it weren't for Katherine Jackson's procedural posturing, both parties would not have to spend as much time in court.

snipped

The Jacksons never surprise, do they?

[daniel green]

I think it simply an ill conceived plan....he panicked, spent lots of time worrying what to say & do...what to admit and what not to.

Yep. He panicked and did just as you state.

[retiredcop]

I'm not saying it wouldn't.

I am saying it would slow the appearance of livor mortis. imo

Oh you just meant pumping the heart? I thought you meant the whole thing as in giving breaths also. I wonder if that would work on a dead body?

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

No, I don't think he did anything to have to get away with it. That was the point of my post.

Again, we went over this. It is a death investigation at this time.

in my opinion


Its a death investigation in your mind. The rest of the world is aware that it went from a death investigation, to a homicide investigation, weeks ago.

[daniel green]

I found the change in the eyes very interesting, and without oxygen impossible to stop. Certainly the EMTs would have checked his pupils and noticed the cloudiness if MJ had been dead for three hours.

It IS interesting, Unperson, and thx for posting it. The EMT's would certainly have noticed it.

The hospital called the death, right? An hour or more after MJ got to the hospital?

Not sure that what Murray did after MJ died would have changed anything.

All of the literature on diprivan says the difference between sleep and death is but a miniscule amount.

[retiredcop]

Perhaps thats why the EMT's wanted Michael declared dead, but Dr. Murray refused.

And the ER doctors? Why did they resuscitate Mr Jackson for over an hour? It seems Dr Murray was right on the scene when he told EMS to continue.

in my opinion

[Eagleeye]

I found the change in the eyes very interesting, and without oxygen impossible to stop. Certainly the EMTs would have checked his pupils and noticed the cloudiness if MJ had been dead for three hours.

I am sure they checked his pupils to see if they were fixed and dialated. He wasn't breathing and had no pulse. They wanted to call it but Dr. Murray insisted they continue CPR. He was dead. For how long is up to the ME. Speculate all we want to but until the results come out we won't know and may never know exactly. It may have been too early for the eyes to have become cloudy when the EMT's arrived.

[daniel green]

Its a death investigation in your mind. The rest of the world is aware that it went from a death investigation, to a homicide investigation, weeks ago.

There is no homicide investigation.

Why the constant snarky, personal comment? :confused:

[GentleBreeze]

Its common practice for the police to tell a suspect that he can make it easier on himself if he tells where the drugs are, because they are going to find it anyway.

Of course he would. Imo, he knows it is in his name as purchasing this drug and most likely paid by his credit card. He knew Diprivan was going to be found at autopsy. He would have been stupid to try and hide it and then all the staff at MJs home start lining up to tell the cops that Murray was seen bringing oxygen canisters down every morning after being with MJ upstairs.

From what has been said early on the EMTs wanted to take MJs body to the Coroner's office and it was Murray who intervened. Other talking heads that know about such medical situations says a licensed doctor carries more weight that EMTs so they followed what he insisted be done.

[retiredcop]

Its a death investigation in your mind. The rest of the world is aware that it went from a death investigation, to a homicide investigation, weeks ago.

You are wrong and you know it.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

More from TMZ.com

Michael Jackson's Doc Sued for Eviction

Posted Aug 17th 2009 1:20PM by TMZ Staff

Michael Jackson's Doc Sued for EvictionDr. Arnold Klein -- Michael Jackson's doctor for decades -- has been sued for eviction from his Beverly Hills medical offices.

snipped.

Is there anyone connected with MJ over ther yrs who is NOT broke and/or being sued? :confused:

[retiredcop]

Of course he would. Imo, he knows it is in his name as purchasing this drug and most likely paid by his credit card. He knew Diprivan was going to be found at autopsy. He would have been stupid to try and hide it and then all the staff at MJs home start lining up to tell the cops that Murray was seen bringing oxygen canisters down every morning after being with MJ upstairs.

From what has been said early on the EMTs wanted to take MJs body to the Coroner's office and it was Murray who intervened. Other talking heads that know about such medical situations says a licensed doctor carries more weight that EMTs so they followed what he insisted be done.

EMTs never transport bodies to the coroner's office. The coroner sends one of his own vehicles and his own attendants. Whatever made you think EMTs transport to the coroner's office? They have to be available for emergencies. Actually that's kind of funny.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

Perhaps thats why the EMT's wanted Michael declared dead, but Dr. Murray refused.

Well I think it is fair to say that their reports will be very detailed why they did not agree with Murray and thought he was acting very strangely.

imo

[daniel green]

She sure isn't so devastated that she can't have her attnys. asking for her to be a co-executor of his will.
TMZ is streaming live now. Kathrine's attnys. are speaking now.

Just the kind of person one would choose to raise one's children, along with her husband. :sad:

[retiredcop]

Well I think it is fair to say that their reports will be very detailed why they did not agree with Murray and thought he was acting very strangely.

imo

I certainly wouldn't hold my breath on that one if I were you.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

EMTs never transport bodies to the coroner's office. The coroner sends one of his own vehicles and his own attendants. Whatever made you think EMTs transport to the coroner's office? They have to be available for emergencies. Actually that's kind of funny.

in my opinion

Ok, they thought the body should go to the Coroner's office.

imo

[daniel green]

nope...and just heard allegations that the reason Larry King kept having Jermaine on is because his wife wants to sing at that imaginary Jackson reunion tribute! roflmao!

They're all pathetic! imo

Just pathetic.

Bless her heart, I hope her migraine doesn't come on whilst singing in that imaginary tribute.

[GentleBreeze]

I certainly wouldn't hold my breath on that one if I were you.

in my opinion

Why?

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

There is no homicide investigation.

Why the constant snarky, personal comment? :confused:




LAPD Treating Jackson Death as Homicide
Posted Jul 15th 2009 3:00AM by TMZ Staff

Multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson's death as a homicide, and they
are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-homicide-death-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-propofol/

[Eagleeye]

He did have that bag thingy...remember we saw it at the bottom of the bed. I doubt the paramedics would have forgotten theirs.

I don't know if the breaths would make a difference or not on a corpse?

Ambu Spur II Bags are disposable which is what was laying at the foot of the bed. It could have been Dr. Murray's or the EMT's. They don't re-use them for ovbious reasons.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Its common practice for the police to tell a suspect that he can make it easier on himself if he tells where the drugs are, because they are going to find it anyway.

i also recall Nurse Cherilyn Lee made a statement that first weekend following MJ's death regarding the "Diprivan" ..many called fault with her at the time..however, for Dr. Murray he likely realized that the gig was up...and that tox tests would show the levels in MJ..and he was there..and the rest is history..His statement seemed very close in time to the airing of the term of Diprivan..and it certainly didnt initially come from Murray nor his Attny...So I have to guess...his coming clean to LE was a mostly forced by the "Driprivan" exposure...

I ge ta gut feelng Murray would not have mentioned it IF it hadnt come out first.remember it took a few days for him to give his statement, after he obtained a lawyer etc...

Dr. Murray, was in CYA mode..and only admitted what he knew would show up....Why ???humming

LMS

[retiredcop]

Ok, they thought the body should go to the Coroner's office.

imo

How do you know that? Why would they think that? They are there to save lives not to send them to the coroner's office. I'll bet they never said that.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

How do you know that? Why would they think that? They are there to save lives not to send them to the coroner's office. I'll bet they never said that.

in my opinion

You mean paramedics don't know dead people when they see them?:ohmy:

I bet they did say that and a whole lot more.

imo

[Eagleeye]

Wasn't it the whole unit not just the bag part?

The whole unit including the mask is disposable. The Ambu II Spur bag includes the mask.

[retiredcop]

LAPD Treating Jackson Death as Homicide
Posted Jul 15th 2009 3:00AM by TMZ Staff

Multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson's death as a homicide, and they
are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-homicide-death-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-propofol/

That's been posted before. We have been down this road before. I do not believe TMZ or the sources. It has not come from LAPD themselves.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Just the kind of person one would choose to raise one's children, along with her husband. :sad:

You know if my son was singing and dancing one night, and dead the next morning with an iv hanging from his arm, and the LAPD Robbery Homicide Unit was conducting multiple searches in its homicide investigation and I still had no answers as to who killed him and why, I might be hesitant of all the people who were looking to take over his fortune. I don't blame her, and it seems pretty reasonable that a mother would want to know who killed her son, before any final decisions are made regarding his after death affairs.

[daniel green]

You know if my son was singing and dancing one night, and dead the next morning with an iv hanging from his arm, and the LAPD Robbery Homicide Unit was conducting multiple searches in its homicide investigation and I still had no answers as to who killed him and why, I might be hesitant of all the people who were looking to take over his fortune. I don't blame her, and it seems pretty reasonable that a mother would want to know who killed her son, before any final decisions are made regarding his after death affairs.

But, of course.

Going on 2 months without laying her son to rest, you know, the one who signed that will. But she sure is in court, to the point of the judge mentioning how it's her fault that there have been so many hearings.

Of course it's not about the money.

[daniel green]

IMO His mother was well aware he was a drug addict.

And I think MJ knew how his parents are about money, hence naming ppl as executors and purposefully saying that anyone questioning the will is out.

[ScoobyDoo]

That's been posted before. We have been down this road before. I do not believe TMZ or the sources. It has not come from LAPD themselves.

in my opinion

The LAPD doesn't generally have its Robbery Homicide/Special Investigation Unit investigate things other than robbery and homicide. (the most serious of crimes)

But.. by all means if you think they do.. you are so entitled.

[ScoobyDoo]

And I think MJ knew how his parents are about money, hence naming ppl as executors and purposefully saying that anyone questioning the will is out.


He knew enough to will his Mother 40 percent of his wealth, and custody of his beloved children, and he likely wrote that will without any forethought that he would be the victim of a homicide. I think she is questioning all the people who played a role in her son's final days, and why shouldn't she. She knows her son died at the hands of another person or persons.

[retiredcop]

He knew enough to will his Mother 40 percent of his wealth, and custody of his beloved children, and he likely wrote that will without any forethought that he would be the victim of a homicide. I think she is questioning all the people who played a role in her son's final days, and why shouldn't she. She knows her son died at the hands of another person or persons.

She wasn't happy with the first two autopsies because she wanted a third one. Wonder what that means? Maybe ruled accidental overdose?

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

Honestly, given MJ's track record...I am not one to support his decisions. He repeatedly made VERY poor ones.

IMO he left his mother 40% because he loved her...leaving his children to her, was a HUGE mistake.


I suppose thats why they leave those big child custody decisions to judges, instead of bloggers.

By the way: I do like your nic.

[daniel green]

One of the attorneys for Michael Jackson's mother says the idea of filing a wrongful death lawsuit has "been floated" -- and the target would be Dr. Conrad Murray. Burt Levitch said that Katherine Jackson is considering filing the suit because of the circumstances surrounding his death. Murray has been the focus of an investigation into Jackson's death -- mainly whether he improperly administered the drug Propofol that is believed to be the cause of death.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/michael-jackson-katherine-jackson-wrongful-death-lawsuit/

[ScoobyDoo]

She wasn't happy with the first two autopsies because she wanted a third one. Wonder what that means? Maybe ruled accidental overdose?

in my opinion

If that were the case, its not likely it would continue being investigated as a homicide. Accidental overdose that would not have occured, but for greed and the gross negligence of Dr. Murray.

imo...of course.

[daniel green]

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b139504_blame_michael_jackson_not_his_doctors.html

[Unperson1984]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/17/michael-jackson-katherine-jackson-wrongful-death-lawsuit/

If I were a betting person I'd lay my money down that she will try to go after Murray's employer...AEG. Deep Pockets.

That's why she doesn't want the judge to approve the contract with them.

:wink:

[daniel green]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iJN6FHrmT75HzSZChIb2PDzFEDXgD9A50II00

[daniel green]

If I were a betting person I'd lay my money down that she will try to go after Murray's employer...AEG. Deep Pockets.

That's why she doesn't want the judge to approve the contract with them.

:wink:

Oh, yeah.

Did you see her complaints about the GAL already? Glad to see that GAL turned in a report already and is taking an active part.

[daniel green]

Not that the King of Pop's mother thinks the memorabilia tour proposed by AEG Live is a bad idea. She just thinks there's more gold in the mine that AEG has yet to tap into.

Burt Levitch, one of Katherine's attorneys, said he feared that the administrators were trying to portray his client as greedy—which is not the case, he insisted. In addition to wanting to further discuss the split of the proceeds from such a venture, she harbors continued concerns about her son's legacy.

On Friday, Katherine and her attorneys agreed to AEG's sale of hours of Jackson rehearsal footage to Columbia Pictures for $60 million, and today they withdrew any objections to the various merchandising deals in the works.

"I see the delay as a real problem for the estate," agreed Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff, who set a follow-up hearing for Friday. "She doesn't own the property," the judge said in reference to Katherine's request for authority to sign off on the final deal. "There's no reason to make her a signatory to those agreements."








http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b139806_michael_jackson_brand_expands_mom.html

[retiredcop]

If I were a betting person I'd lay my money down that she will try to go after Murray's employer...AEG. Deep Pockets.

That's why she doesn't want the judge to approve the contract with them.

:wink:

She will try to go after the manufacturer, distributor of the drug, and the pharmacy too.


in my opinion

[daniel green]

Katherine Jackson's lawyers, while endorsing the movie deal, have objected to terms given to AEG, saying they are too generous to the company. Jackson's lawyers objected to the estate's agreement to let AEG recover all its expenses from that money, then take 10 percent of the remainder. It also gives the company a perpetual share of the profits from the video rights. AEG Live's lawyer said the company had made many concessions to the estate and could not make more. The judge previously has said he might approve the contracts even over Katherine Jackson's objection. Jermaine Jackson, Michael Jackson's older brother, told CNN's Larry King recently that he likes the deals, which he said could bring in nearly $100 million into the estate.
Katherine Jackson and Michael Jackson's three children are the main beneficiaries of the estate, which is controlled by Jackson's former lawyer, John Branca, and longtime Jackson friend and music executive John McClain.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/17/jackson.estate/

Branca and McClain were named in Jackson's will as executors. Katherine Jackson is considering a challenge of their control of the estate

[daniel green]

She will try to go after the manufacturer, distributor of the drug, and the pharmacy too.


in my opinion

And the EMT and the hospital.

[retiredcop]

Oh, yeah.

Did you see her complaints about the GAL already? Glad to see that GAL turned in a report already and is taking an active part.

I am too.:thumbsup:

[daniel green]

The attorney appointed to represent the interests of Michael’s children is in favor of the deal, but Katherine Jackson is not. Branca and McClain’s lawyer Howard Weitzman apparently told the judge, “We have a dilemma. One beneficiary doesn’t object and the other beneficiary does. We have a five to six million dollar deal for the estate that may never be recovered because of timing issues. We need court wisdom to overcome this hurdle.”

http://www.hollyscoop.com/michael-jackson/katherine-fighting-michaels-estate-executors-in-court_21233.aspx

[Cindylee]

If I were a betting person I'd lay my money down that she will try to go after Murray's employer...AEG. Deep Pockets.

That's why she doesn't want the judge to approve the contract with them.

:wink:

I kind of agree with you, but didn't AEG say that MJ was to be paying Dr. Murray?

[achristie]

You know if my son was singing and dancing one night, and dead the next morning with an iv hanging from his arm, and the LAPD Robbery Homicide Unit was conducting multiple searches in its homicide investigation and I still had no answers as to who killed him and why, I might be hesitant of all the people who were looking to take over his fortune. I don't blame her, and it seems pretty reasonable that a mother would want to know who killed her son, before any final decisions are made regarding his after death affairs.

Just jumping in to say I totally agree. She is his mother. She has every right to protect him in death. All of these ancillary people are looking to make a buck, no doubt about it. It's all about money. Any money that is made should go to his children and family. No one else has a right to it.

MOO Aggie

[retiredcop]

I kind of agree with you, but didn't AEG say that MJ was to be paying Dr. Murray?

Mr Jackson picked Murray. Maybe she'll sue the estate.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[forensicpsy~]

Just pathetic.

Bless her heart, I hope her migraine doesn't come on whilst singing in that imaginary tribute.

:laugh: OMG! Did you see that show? Or read my post about it?

She's the most neurotic woman I've ever seen.

A real meshugene.

imo

[forensicpsy~]

I kind of agree with you, but didn't AEG say that MJ was to be paying Dr. Murray?

I think MJ insisted on Dr Murray but AEG was paying him.

imo

[daniel green]

:laugh: OMG! Did you see that show? Or read my post about it?

She's the most neurotic woman I've ever seen.

A real meshugene.

imo

I did--both! Your post about it was so perfectly on pitch. :laugh:

Can't you just picture her and Jermaine planning this show? :w00t:

[daniel green]

Many anesthesiologists say it is negligent and unusual for a doctor to administer Propofol in a home setting and not in a hospital, and without proper monitoring. Legal experts think that fact alone not be enough to prosecute Murray.Prosecutors do have options.If they determine that Murray and at least one other doctor conspired to prescribe drugs under fake names, they can charge doctors in a similar fashion to the two doctors in the Anna Nicole Smith case. Smith died in 2007, and a two-year investigation resulted in Drs. Sandeep Kapoor and Khristine Eroshevich being charged with multiple felony counts of conspiring to prescribe dangerous narcotics to an addict using fraudulent means.That may turn out to be an easier charge to prove under some circumstances than manslaughter, or the murder charge some believe Murray could face. Investigators also could ask federal prosecutors to indict Murray, and possibly other doctors, for improperly transporting the drugs across state lines. Warrants for a Las Vegas pharmacy where Murray apparently obtained the Propofol say authorities were looking to track shipments related to "the purchase, transfer, receiving, ordering, delivery and storage of Propofol to Dr. Conrad Murray." But, it could be a tall order, because if Dr. Conrad Murray is charged with manslaughter, prosecutors "will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that (Dr. Murray) knew everything about what drugs Jackson was taking and his whole medical history."

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2009/08/why-is-michael-jackson-investigation-taking-so-long/

[Cindylee]

I think MJ insisted on Dr Murray but AEG was paying him.

imo

Actually I have heard both. I found this article, and this is what I remember the AEG guy said about hiring Dr. Murray............

"We would have preferred not to because it would have been cheaper, but Michael was insistent that he be hired," Mr Phillips said. "Michael said he had a rapport with him.

Mr Phillips said AEG Live had advanced Jackson money to pay for Dr Murray's services as part of the production costs.

Mr Phillips said he asked Jackson why he wanted Dr Murray with him full-time. "He just said, 'Look, this whole business revolves around me. I'm a machine and we have to keep the machine well-oiled,' and you don't argue with the King of Pop," he said. "


http://www.metro.co.uk/fame/article.html?Promoter_had_to_hire_singers_medic&in_article_id=692994&in_page_id=7

[forensicpsy~]

I did--both! Your post about it was so perfectly on pitch. :laugh:

Can't you just picture her and Jermaine planning this show? :w00t:

Oy! I feel so sorry for Larry driving her to the hospital in the middle of the night. At his age and with his heart condition.

I don't know how he can stand her. :w00t:

imo

[Cindylee]

Mr Jackson picked Murray. Maybe she'll sue the estate.:biggrin:

in my opinion

:laugh:.........

[Cindylee]

Oy! I feel so sorry for Larry driving her to the hospital in the middle of the night. With his age and heart condition.

I don't know how he can stand her. :w00t:

imo

He carries her purse for her. :laugh:

[forensicpsy~]

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2009/08/why-is-michael-jackson-investigation-taking-so-long/

I don't think you can get it from a pharmacy, can you?

imo

[forensicpsy~]

He carries her purse for her. :laugh:

No he din't!

Really?

ROFL

[Cindylee]

No he din't!

Really?

ROFL

All the time. :laugh:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/08/larry-king-royally-ticked-off/

[forensicpsy~]

I found the transcript of Larry's wife on his show, shown internationally, about the migraines.

This is just a small part.

S King: That does help me. Put an ice pack around the back of your head. And get in the dark. Lay flat.But that can...if you get....

L King: Would you like ice now?

S King: I would like an ice pack right now just around the back of my head.

L King: Get an ice pack.

L King: We'll be right back. Don't go away. Get an icepack.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

L King: We're back. You have ice? You have ice on now.

S King: I have ice. I feel like such a drama queen. Sorry.

L King: Nashville...Hello!!


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/26/lkl.01.html

[Xenam]

She wasn't happy with the first two autopsies because she wanted a third one. Wonder what that means? Maybe ruled accidental overdose?

in my opinion

The third autopsy was another false tabloid rumor:


"A Jackson family source tell E! News that despite a recent spate of reports claiming that Mama Katherine is so convinced of foul play in her son's death that she wants the King of Pop's body to go under the scalpel yet again, "there is neither a plan nor a need for another autopsy."

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b138043_No_Third_Autopsy_for__quot_Sliced_and_Dice d_quot__Jackson.html

[BobbisAngel]

The whole thing is odd and it will be interesting to find out just exactly what happened, if we ever get to. I could see a family member wanting resuscitation to continue indefinitely but for a doctor that does seem strange. I suppose it's safe to assume they knew Murray was a doctor right from the get-go? He most certainly would have announced that.........or the EMTs would have told them ??? JMO


Dr. Murray would no doubt have kept trying to get EMT's and doctors to resusitate Michael in the hopes that he would start breathing and come back to life for as long as possible. The man had to know that his butt was grass and if he could have managed it he would probably still be trying to get Michael to come back. He knew he was in big trouble or he wouldn't have called his office and had the women go get whatever was in the boxes....something he didn't want LE to get hold of. He wouldn't have waited hours before calling 911 so that he could clean the bedroom up before they came. I think this doc can kiss his freedom goodbye. Greed sure can get people in trouble.

[Firehead11]

Is there anyone connected with MJ over ther yrs who is NOT broke and/or being sued? :confused:

The better question is, where did he get the money to pay his rent that was late. Interviews?