Aug. 17 & 18

[Firehead11]

haha.. right backatcha. Next you'll be saying that it was Michael Jackson himself who gave a statement that he wasn't dead until long after he arrived at he hospital.

imo...of course.

Scooby? Why are you giving yourself a headache? It doesn't matter if you provide links, who said what. try the iggy button, you will like it :biggrin:

[retiredcop]

haha.. right backatcha. Next you'll be saying that it was Michael Jackson himself who gave a statement that he wasn't dead until long after he arrived at he hospital.

imo...of course.

Not at all. Next I will be saying the same as I have before. He was dying when found and 911 was called. Simple as that. If no one would have tried to resucitate him you would be yelling about that.

Dr Murray was not cleaning up a so called scene. If he were he wouldn't have left the Diprivan there in the closet or other drugs laying around that was found two days later by LAPD.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Scooby? Why are you giving yourself a headache? It doesn't matter if you provide links, who said what. try the iggy button, you will like it :biggrin:

She didn't provide any links. I did.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Not at all. Next I will be saying the same as I have before. He was dying when found and 911 was called. Simple as that. If no one would have tried to resucitate him you would be yelling about that.

Dr Murray was not cleaning up a so called scene. If he were he wouldn't have left the Diprivan there in the closet or other drugs laying around that was found two days later by LAPD.

in my opinion

You make a good point about the cleaning up. He didn't do a very good job of it. But, then if he did do some cleaning up, what did he remove? He did tell LAPD the he gave MJ the diprovan. Was there something else he didn't want them to know about?

[mrsmcgoo]

You make a good point about the cleaning up. He didn't do a very good job of it. But, then if he did do some cleaning up, what did he remove? He did tell LAPD the he gave MJ the diprovan. Was there something else he didn't want them to know about?

ITA Cinder!

He had no reason to hide the diprovan after admitting he gave it to MJ. At least the small quanitity that was found in the closet, which according to reports would have been equal to one nights dose.

I believe MJ was dead for hours. Also that Dr. Murray was on the phone alright, but that was too start covering his butt. Thus the calls would indeed be tracked to family, who he called to get the things out of storage and at home no doubt.

JMO

[Cindylee]

ITA Cinder!

He had no reason to hide the diprovan after admitting he gave it to MJ. At least the small quanitity that was found in the closet, which according to reports would have been equal to one nights dose.

I believe MJ was dead for hours. Also that Dr. Murray was on the phone alright, but that was too start covering his butt. Thus the calls would indeed be tracked to family, who he called to get the things out of storage and at home no doubt.

JMO

I am just very curious as to what he would have to hide, if not the diprovan?
I too believe he was already dead when 911 was called. For how long I don't know.

[daniel green]

snipped

S King: I have ice. I feel like such a drama queen. Sorry.

]

That says it all, right there. :biggrin:

[daniel green]

These are the people MJ associated himself with. He knew he could control them and get things he wanted from them because they were in need of money and he had or appeared to have money.snipped.

I agree completely.

[mrsmcgoo]

I am just very curious as to what he would have to hide, if not the diprovan?
I too believe he was already dead when 911 was called. For how long I don't know.

I wonder also.

Wonder if maybe the autopsy report will point us in the right direction?:confused:

[daniel green]

I found the transcript of Larry's wife on his show, shown internationally, about the migraines.


snipped

That's just beyond embarrassing, really, to actually read the whole thing.

They have the number one expert in the field of migraines on the show and then this twit prattling about how none of that works for her, and her old breathing problem an accupuncturist DXd and how she has both cluster and migraine headaches and she knows it all and she'd prefer just vicodin or morphine at the ER. :blushing:

[Firehead11]

I guess we go back over, yet again, how much money Jackson was worth compared to what he owed.

Of course it is Jacksons fault that Dr. Arnie didn't pay his rent. :rolleyes:

[Firehead11]

That's just beyond embarrassing, really, to actually read the whole thing.

They have the number one expert in the field of migraines on the show and then this twit prattling about how none of that works for her, and her old breathing problem an accupuncturist DXd and how she has both cluster and migraine headaches and she knows it all and she'd prefer just vicodin or morphine at the ER. :blushing:

Maybe none of the drugs do work for her. The majority of them do not work for my migraines. How would you know?

[mrsmcgoo]

I guess we go back over, yet again, how much money Jackson was worth compared to what he owed.

Of course it is Jacksons fault that Dr. Arnie didn't pay his rent. :rolleyes:

:confused:

[Cindylee]

I guess we go back over, yet again, how much money Jackson was worth compared to what he owed.

Of course it is Jacksons fault that Dr. Arnie didn't pay his rent. :rolleyes:

Who said that it was Jacksons fault?

[Firehead11]

I wonder also.

Wonder if maybe the autopsy report will point us in the right direction?:confused:

I wonder why they impounded his car. What, IF ANYTHING, did they find in there?

[daniel green]

Well, finally. It looks like there are finally plans to bury MJ.

TMZ.com
Michael Jackson -- Burial Announced

Posted Aug 18th 2009 10:10AM by TMZ Staff

The spokesman for the Jackson family says Michael Jackson will be laid to rest at Holly Terrace in the Great Mausoleum at Glendale Forest Lawn Memorial Park on Saturday, August 29 at 10 AM. That would have been Michael's 51st birthday.

The ceremony will be limited to family and close friends.
snipped.

Plenty of public family feuds. 2nd funeral 2 mos later. Tell the world before hand. Ruin the day for his children by making sure they will always have mourn on a day that would have otherwise been theirs to celebrate.

[Firehead11]

:confused:

Yesterday it was linked that Dr. Arnie had been sued because he didn't pay his rent. Of course he paid it before it had actually gone to court. He owed appox 29,000.00 in rent.

[daniel green]

I don't think you can get it from a pharmacy, can you?

imo

It seems Murray got it from that pharmacy police searched.

[retiredcop]

You make a good point about the cleaning up. He didn't do a very good job of it. But, then if he did do some cleaning up, what did he remove? He did tell LAPD the he gave MJ the diprovan. Was there something else he didn't want them to know about?

That's what I wonder. He was truthful about the Diprivan. LAPD supposedly took out numerous other drugs when they searched two days later. So he didn't clean those medications up. He may have told them he had something in the car and they got a search warrant for that. The pole and empty bag were not removed.

What did he have to clean up?

in my opinion

[daniel green]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/conclusion-of-michael-jackson-death-investigation-still-weeks-away-sources-say.html

Conclusion of Michael Jackson death investigation still weeks away, sources say

snipped

Thx! This is a very interesting piece.

Law enforcement sources told The Times that while a clear picture is emerging as to how Jackson died, detectives are still building a case they can bring to L.A. County prosecutors showing criminal wrongdoing. This involves reconciling dozens of witness interviews with the coroner’s cause of death investigation, and the drugs and other “medical evidence” found at the Holmby Hills mansion when the pop star was stricken on June 25, said the sources, who spoke on the condition that they not be named because it was an ongoing investigation. Detectives clearly have a strong working theory of what happened – but more follow-up investigations are needed, the sources said. The investigation has focused in large part on Jackson’s personal physician, Conrad Murray. Law enforcement sources told The Times last week that on the morning the pop singer died, Murray left the performer alone and under the influence of a powerful anesthetic to make telephone calls, according to three people familiar with the investigation. By the time the doctor had returned, Jackson had stopped breathing, the sources said.

But Gorin noted that doctors are rarely convicted of a crime related to their care of a patient, so the evidence detectives are gathering need to be strong. Defense attorney James Blatt said another question is whether Jackson told his various doctors about all the drugs he was taking and the state of his health. If not, doctors could use that as a defense. “Was he less than candid about other medications he was taken? Were there medical problems or history? He appears to be drastically underweight and exercising strenuously in combination with his age, a 50-year-old man,” Blatt said

[daniel green]

http://wcbstv.com/national/michael.jackson.drugs.2.1123684.html

AP article

Pharmacist said Murray wrote prescriptions "through the business."

I'm still surprised that you can obtain propofol at a pharmacy. I would think it has to come from a distributorship or medical supply co. :confused:

imo

I think that's what everyone believed at first. Diane Dimond said last week that it was easier to get than at first thought. It seems any doc could get it through a pharmacy.

[retiredcop]

OK if it is not illegal to buy it and it is not illegal to administer it in a home setting by a doctor, then what is left? He left the room to make a few phone calls and when he returned Mr Jackson had stopped breathing and had a faint heartbeat. He made every effort to revive him.

I don't see this as manslaughter at all. I don't see it as criminal. Civil maybe but not criminal.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

snipped
it is illegal or criminal to use propofol in a home setting without the training and equipment that is required. imo

No, it isn't. It is not illegal.

[daniel green]

OK if it is not illegal to buy it and it is not illegal to administer it in a home setting by a doctor, then what is left? snipped

Good question.

The LAPD could say that he should have known better and that it rises to involuntary maslaughter (not because he left the room or because he was being paid a lot or because he "cleaned up" whatever it is he is supposed to have cleaned up) but because of the dangers inherent with it.

I believe it will be a tough case to prove given MJ's asking others for it, his long history of drug abuse, the presence of other drugs in his system, etc.

If the other drugs in his system were Rxd for pain, btw, the Rxing to an addict goes out the window, as well.

[daniel green]

What do you all think of the videotaped statement Murray released, THANKING his "supporters"??

Like everything else with this subject, bizarro. I guess I never expected that to be his voice, either.

[daniel green]

Murray has many, many supportive patients in LV and Tx. They have been on TV (Dateline?) talking about what a wonderful doctor he is.

[Cindylee]

Murray speaks...short video

http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=0330431a-ded7-4142-9693-8aba7fad8427

That was interesting. He said he was afraid to return phone calls???:ohmy:

[daniel green]

of course, it is. Just because he is a doctor doesn´t mean it´s not.

We've been through this for pages and pages, day after day. Read upthread.

There is no statute or law controlling the use of diprivan. Period.

It is not illegal to administer it in a home.

It is stupid, but not criminal.

[retiredcop]

What do you all think of the videotaped statement Murray released, THANKING his "supporters"??

I think he just wanted to let people know, who have been trying to reach him, that he has received their messages and appreciates it. I believe him that he told the truth and he is leaving it up to the investigators. It looks like he is taking this very hard.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

read yourself. Doesn´t matter that diprivan is not controlled. It is illegal to administer it without the required equipment and training, and Murray knew what he was doing was illegal. Period.

How about IMO? IMO.

Well, if nothing else, he will probably lose his license. IMO

[retiredcop]

That was interesting. He said he was afraid to return phone calls???:ohmy:

I wouldn't return phone calls either. Who knows who would be prodding him for information and recording him. This man is not going to talk with anyone which is a very wise move at this time.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

It is illegal to administer it without the required equipment and training, and Murray knew what he was doing was illegal. Period.

snipped.

Not imo. You are just incorrect.

There are no laws governing the administration of diprivan. Period.

It is not illegal.

[daniel green]

I wouldn't return phone calls either. Who knows who would be prodding him for information and recording him. snipped

For real. He shouldn't be emailing or talking to anyone.

[retiredcop]

read yourself. Doesn´t matter that diprivan is not controlled. It is illegal to administer it without the required equipment and training, and Murray knew what he was doing was illegal. Period.

How about IMO? IMO.

We have looked for any links that this drug needs special training to administer it and can not be administered in a home setting. If you have a link to any laws that prove otherwise, I would like to see it. It is not a controlled substance by the way.

It is not illegal. Period.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

Who knows, maybe they have better security at Glendale. I surely won't argue the point.

:shrug:

They have much better security.

[Emerald]

If Katherine Jackson is already looking at a wrongful death lawsuit against Dr Murray, she must have a pretty good idea criminal charges may not be filed. I'm guessing the autopsy results are not favorable for the criminal charges. Accidental overdose is still my guess.

in my opinion

How can Katherine Jackson be a party to a WD suit?

[daniel green]

Improperly prescribed pain medicines result in deaths, little discipline for doctors.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/29532979.html

While this article does not reference Propofol I do think that there might be a pecedence here that would indicate that it is going to be very difficult to prove a case against Dr. Murray.

Interesting article.

Most of those meds were for pain, thereby the problem, as docs are allowed to treat pain, even for known addicts. In fact, they must do so.

But, this about says it all:

"Poor medical practice doesn't mean a criminal violation."

So only one doc in the Heath Ledger case lost his lic? Wild.

[Cindylee]

How can Katherine Jackson be a party to a WD suit?

I don't know. Goldman did against O.J., right?

[Unperson1984]

That's what I wonder. He was truthful about the Diprivan. LAPD supposedly took out numerous other drugs when they searched two days later. So he didn't clean those medications up. He may have told them he had something in the car and they got a search warrant for that. The pole and empty bag were not removed.

What did he have to clean up?

in my opinion

Who knows if anything LAPD found in that house will be admissible? La Toya has said MJ was murdered and she had access to the house before LE searched and sealed the premises.

[retiredcop]

How can Katherine Jackson be a party to a WD suit?

Per the link Mr Green supplied she is "floating the idea". I don't think she can unless she sues for the children.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

Because she is the legal guardian of the children and of course she is his mother. That is all that is needed. They, if they prevail would have been deprived of a father, son, and provider for years to come. To say nothing about love and affection.

MJ was her sole support and that alone gives her standing.

[Unperson1984]

read yourself. Doesn´t matter that diprivan is not controlled. It is illegal to administer it without the required equipment and training, and Murray knew what he was doing was illegal. Period.

How about IMO? IMO.

It is not illegal.

[retiredcop]

Who knows if anything LAPD found in that house will be admissible? La Toya has said MJ was murdered and she had access to the house before LE searched and sealed the premises.

You're right! I had forgotten about that. Didn't other family members have access also? I don't remember if they searched after the moving vans were there.

in my opinion

[Emerald]

Because she is the legal guardian of the children and of course she is his mother. That is all that is needed. They, if they prevail would have been deprived of a father, son, and provider for years to come. To say nothing about love and affection.

The children would be the only parties to a WD suit, wouldn't they?

In OJ, the parents of Nicole were not a party in the suit.

[ScoobyDoo]

Not imo. You are just incorrect.

There are no laws governing the administration of diprivan. Period.

It is not illegal.


Again... There is no law prohibiting owning a gun, but if you use the gun recklessly, and kill someone... it is a crime.

Again... Ther is no law against driving a car, but if you drive it recklessly, and kill someone, it is a crime.

Again.... There is no law against owning a knife, but if you use one recklessly, and kill someone, it is a crime.

[retiredcop]

Oh, Oh :ohmy:

I guess no one saw the kiss he blew me.:shrug:

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

You're right! I had forgotten about that. Didn't other family members have access also? I don't remember if they searched after the moving vans were there.

in my opinion

The moving vans were there on Sunday and the search warrant was executed on Monday.

[ScoobyDoo]

It is not illegal.

The illegal part is failure to monitor the patient, a gross deviation from the standard of care.



Colorado anesthesiologist convicted of reckless manslaughter for allegedly falling asleep during a routine ear operation on a child.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/179/2/331#REF6

[Emerald]

MJ was her sole support and that alone gives her standing.

I disagree. If Katheriine had been deemed incompetent with MJ as her custodial caretaker, maybe she would be named in a WD suit.

I'm not a legal eagle, so this is just MO.

[Cindylee]

Cellphones problematic for 911

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/phones/2009-08-17-cellphones_N.htm?se=yahoorefer

thought this might be interesting. Murray would have known about this problem. Also he claimed he didn´t know the address iirc. imo

What was it, 100 Carolwood, that is a tough one. :smile:

[Unperson1984]

It is. If you administer it without the required training and equipment, chances are your patient will die. I think it is illegal for a doctor to do something like that. That´s why this is a manslaughter investigation.

If the simple administering of diprivan was illegal this would be a Murder 2 investigation.

[CANDYKISSES]

Again... There is no law prohibiting owning a gun, but if you use the gun recklessly, and kill someone... it is a crime.

Again... Ther is no law against driving a car, but if you drive it recklessly, and kill someone, it is a crime.

Again.... There is no law against owning a knife, but if you use one recklessly, and kill someone, it is a crime.

Great comps IMO Scooby. I think the link you presented from mid July (last night) is correct and that the LAPD is still actively working a criminal investigation regarding the death of Michael Jackson and the physician who was caring for him. JMO at this time, but I think it's likely there will be a manslaughter charge levied against Conrad Murray, MD at a minimum. I don't know about the other doctors and HOW MUCH they may have been over-prescribing and for how long, but suspect they will be targeted too if they have exhibited the same reckless behavior in prescribing.

[Cindylee]

The children would be the only parties to a WD suit, wouldn't they?

In OJ, the parents of Nicole were not a party in the suit.

But, the Goldman's did sue OJ. Maybe they could because Ron didn't have children. :shrug: I know everyone at the time said that Vergie A. couldn't sue on her own behalf.

[Cindylee]

I guess no one saw the kiss he blew me.:shrug:

in my opinion
.......:laugh:

[Unperson1984]

I disagree. If Katheriine had been deemed incompetent with MJ as her custodial caretaker, maybe she would be named in a WD suit.

I'm not a legal eagle, so this is just MO.

The fact she was his mother and financially dependant on MJ gives her standing.

[Emerald]

But, the Goldman's did sue OJ. Maybe they could because Ron didn't have children. :shrug: I know everyone at the time said that Vergie A. couldn't sue on her own behalf.

The Goldman's named in the suit were Ron's parents (Mother/Father). His sister was not a party to the suit.

[daniel green]

Who knows if anything LAPD found in that house will be admissible? La Toya has said MJ was murdered and she had access to the house before LE searched and sealed the premises.

Still mindblowing. :ohmy:

[ScoobyDoo]

If the simple administering of diprivan was illegal this would be a Murder 2 investigation.

The difference between murder 2 and manslaughter is what?

The penalty.

[Cindylee]

The Goldman's named in the suit were Ron's parents (Mother/Father). His sister was not a party to the suit. Right, so maybe if Ron had had children, the Goldman's would have had to sue for them? I really don't know. (very sad that Ron didn't live long enough to have kids.)

[Emerald]

The fact she was his mother and financially dependant on MJ gives her standing.

Katherine Jackson is not legally MJ's next of kin.

I totally disagree with your assessment. Perhaps it is correct, but I guess we will see soon.

IMO

[retiredcop]

The moving vans were there on Sunday and the search warrant was executed on Monday.

I can't imagine how any evidence they obtained from their search will be admissible. Unless they sealed off a room and had a cop stationed in front of the door. If the room had windows they would have to have cops stationed in front of those where they can be viewed too. It makes no sense to me.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Katherine Jackson is not legally MJ's next of kin.

I totally disagree with your assessment. Perhaps it is correct, but I guess we will see soon.

IMO

I agree, I don't think she can either. I think she can sue for the children. IMO

[forensicpsy~]

Murray has many, many supportive patients in LV and Tx. They have been on TV (Dateline?) talking about what a wonderful doctor he is.

He also has supporters in Trinidad.

http://www.caribdaily.com/article/176404/local-medics-jackson-s-doctor-a-good-guy/

[ScoobyDoo]

Murray has many, many supportive patients in LV and Tx. They have been on TV (Dateline?) talking about what a wonderful doctor he is.


They probably wouldn't think he was so wonderful if he had killed them too.

[retiredcop]

He also has supporters in Trinidad.

http://www.caribdaily.com/article/176404/local-medics-jackson-s-doctor-a-good-guy/

I once had a cardiologist from Trinidad. Best doctor I ever had. He sounded just like Dr Murray. He was so sweet and caring. I use to love to hear him talk.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

The difference between murder 2 and manslaughter is what?

The penalty.

Not exactly, an involuntary manslaughter charge can be the result of a legal act done in a reckless manner. Murder in the first or second degree also require malice and/or intent, neither of which is a component of a manslaughter charge.

[retiredcop]

I agree, I don't think she can either. I think she can sue for the children. IMO

That won't make Joe happy.:scared:

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

The children would be the only parties to a WD suit, wouldn't they?

In OJ, the parents of Nicole were not a party in the suit.

You are right the Browns sued on behalf of the children. However, Goldman sued and won. At the time it was suppose to be IF you could show that Ron supported his parents , then they might be entitled to a WD suit. And IIRC, it was suppose to be limited to what Ron could have made in his lifetime and contributed to them. My guess would be he would have never made 32 million dollars in his entire life being a waiter but the jury ruled as such.

Katherine can prove that her son supported her household. She can also act on behalf of the children.

[retiredcop]

They probably wouldn't think he was so wonderful if he had killed them too.

Who knows. They wouldn't been thinking much at all if they were dead.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Who knows. They wouldn't been thinking much at all if they were dead.:biggrin:

in my opinion:laugh: I was thinking that too.

[Unperson1984]

Katherine Jackson is not legally MJ's next of kin.

I totally disagree with your assessment. Perhaps it is correct, but I guess we will see soon.

IMO

California CCP 377.60

377.60. A cause of action for the death of a person caused by the
wrongful act or neglect of another may be asserted by any of the
following persons or by the decedent's personal representative on
their behalf:
(a) The decedent's surviving spouse, domestic partner, children,
and issue of deceased children, or, if there is no surviving issue of
the decedent, the persons, including the surviving spouse or
domestic partner, who would be entitled to the property of the
decedent by intestate succession.
(b) Whether or not qualified under subdivision (a), if they were
dependent on the decedent, the putative spouse, children of the
putative spouse, stepchildren, or parents.

[retiredcop]

:laugh: I was thinking that too.


Awwwwww That's just our Scooby. ROTFLMAO!!!!

in my opinion

[Emerald]

That won't make Joe happy.:scared:

in my opinion

JMO

I think Joe is the driving force behind all the stuff to gain control over the estate.

Jermaine is against it.

Can you imagine the Family dynamic in the Jackson compound right now? In a way, I feel sorry for the Katherine and the pressure she must be under. But still, if she can't handle it, Katherine needs to refer all the 'advisers' to the trustees for answers.

[forensicpsy~]

that´s an old article published 4 days after MJ "expired". They only say he is a good cardiologist, nothing about propofol at all.

So what? They thought he was a good dcotor.

imo

[Emerald]

You are right the Browns sued on behalf of the children. However, Goldman sued and won. At the time it was suppose to be IF you could show that Ron supported his parents , then they might be entitled to a WD suit. And IIRC, it was suppose to be limited to what Ron could have made in his lifetime and contributed to them. My guess would be he would have never made 32 million dollars in his entire life being a waiter but the jury ruled as such.

Katherine can prove that her son supported her household. She can also act on behalf of the children.

JMO....

Ron Goldman had not seen or spoken to his Mother in many years. She was named as a party to the suit, because of being next of kin.

Katherine is not the legal next of kin to MJ. His children are. Doesn't matter how much $$$ MJ gave to support his Mother. It's time some of those other Jacksons start supporting their Mother.

If something happened to Janet, her Mother would have standing in a civil court as next of kin since she has no children or spouse.

[ScoobyDoo]

Not exactly, an involuntary manslaughter charge can be the result of a legal act done in a reckless manner. Murder in the first or second degree also require malice and/or intent, neither of which is a component of a manslaughter charge.




Under California law, if a person commits an act that creates a substantial danger to human life, and he/she recognizes the danger and acts with a conscious disregard for it, then any resulting fatality constitutes second-degree murder under the doctrine of "implied malice aforethought." This is true regardless of whether the killer intended to kill anyone, and regardless of whether he/she knew the victim.

No?

[Unperson1984]

JMO....

Ron Goldman had not seen or spoken to his Mother in many years. She was named as a party to the suit, because of being next of kin.

Katherine is not the legal next of kin to MJ. His children are. Doesn't matter how much $$$ MJ gave to support his Mother. It's time some of those other Jacksons start supporting their Mother.

If something happened to Janet, her Mother would have standing in a civil court as next of kin since she has no children or spouse.

I posted the relevant California Code above, Katherine has standing to file a Wrongful Death Action.

[Unperson1984]

Under California law, if a person commits an act that creates a substantial danger to human life, and he/she recognizes the danger and acts with a conscious disregard for it, then any resulting fatality constitutes second-degree murder under the doctrine of "implied malice aforethought." This is true regardless of whether the killer intended to kill anyone, and regardless of whether he/she knew the victim.

No?

Where do you see implied malice in this case? Murray will say that he didn't see a danger, that MJ had been using the drug for years, that it was his medical judgment there was no risk. I'd say it's a safe bet that the last thing Murray wanted was a dead MJ. No malice/no intent.

Scooby, they'll be lucky to make a manslaughter charge stick.

[Emerald]

California CCP 377.60

377.60. A cause of action for the death of a person caused by the
wrongful act or neglect of another may be asserted by any of the
following persons or by the decedent's personal representative on
their behalf:
(a) The decedent's surviving spouse, domestic partner, children,
and issue of deceased children, or, if there is no surviving issue of
the decedent, the persons, including the surviving spouse or
domestic partner, who would be entitled to the property of the
decedent by intestate succession.
(b) Whether or not qualified under subdivision (a), if they were
dependent on the decedent, the putative spouse, children of the
putative spouse, stepchildren, or parents.

Like I said... I am not a legal eagle. There is legal surviving issue.

I don't understand how Katherine can prove MJ was her sole support. She lives on a compound with some other Jackson children and many grandchildren. There is a staff who assists. She is married to a man who lives there and can support another home in LV.

JMO Katherine Jackson will be hard pressed to prove MJ was her sole support.

[daniel green]

Indeed. The very last thing Murray wanted was MJ dead.

They might charge Murray with Involuntary Manslaughter, but I think it will be very difficult to get a conviction.

[Emerald]

I posted the relevant California Code above, Katherine has standing to file a Wrongful Death Action.

Again, we shall see. I don't believe the courts will accept such a suit.

[Unperson1984]

Like I said... I am not a legal eagle. There is legal surviving issue.

I don't understand how Katherine can prove MJ was her sole support. She lives on a compound with some other Jackson children and many grandchildren. There is a staff who assists. She is married to a man who lives there and can support another home in LV.

JMO Katherine Jackson will be hard pressed to prove MJ was her sole support.

I believe she has already filed this claim with the Court, she was seeking to have access to one of MJ's bank accounts stating that he was her only source of support.

[daniel green]

snipped

Katherine is definitely qualified as MJ was her sole support.



Oh, absolutely not.

She made the claim to the court that she needed money ASAP because she depends on her soc sec pension.

[daniel green]

Seems Katherine desperately needs money to live on. And to take care of his kids.

Why are we not surprised? Who wasn't living off Michael Jackson's money and talent?

Lawyers for the estate wrote: "We are informed that Mrs. Jackson was also financially dependent upon Michael Jackson and that other than extremely modest social security benefits, Mrs. Jackson has no independent means of support."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedishrag/2009/07/katherine-jackson-needs-michael-jacksons-money-r-u-surprised.html

[daniel green]

I really don't know if she has legal standing, and, frankly, don't care.

I find this fighting over money well, unseemly.

[daniel green]

Again... There is no law prohibiting owning a gun, but if you use the gun recklessly, and kill someone... it is a crime.

Again... Ther is no law against driving a car, but if you drive it recklessly, and kill someone, it is a crime.

Again.... There is no law against owning a knife, but if you use one recklessly, and kill someone, it is a crime.


That is not a good comparison at all, as KILLING someone, whether by car, knife of gun is illegal. And there is no such law with regard to diprivan.

[ScoobyDoo]

Where do you see implied malice in this case? Murray will say that he didn't see a danger, that MJ had been using the drug for years, that it was his medical judgment there was no risk. I'd say it's a safe bet that the last thing Murray wanted was a dead MJ. No malice/no intent.

Scooby, they'll be lucky to make a manslaughter charge stick.

If you believe that Dr. Murray acted with extreme recklessness, then you would have implied malice. Its apparent that you and I don't share the same view that the doctor was reckless.

[Firehead11]

JMO....

Ron Goldman had not seen or spoken to his Mother in many years. She was named as a party to the suit, because of being next of kin.

Katherine is not the legal next of kin to MJ. His children are. Doesn't matter how much $$$ MJ gave to support his Mother. It's time some of those other Jacksons start supporting their Mother.

If something happened to Janet, her Mother would have standing in a civil court as next of kin since she has no children or spouse.

Well, IMO, it really doesn't matter what you or I think in regards to whether she is entitled or not to file a WD suit for herself. He was supporting that house and she can prove it. You have been provided a link regarding this, it is your choice to believe it or not. We will see what happenes in the future.

[ScoobyDoo]

That is not a good comparison at all, as KILLING someone, whether by car, knife of gun is illegal. And there is no such law with regard to diprivan.


Its an accurate and reasonable analogy and I'm quite surpised that you won't recognize it as such.

[daniel green]

I think it will be a tough road to make this "wanton disregard for human life," even for invol manslaughter.

[daniel green]

Its an accurate and reasonable analogy and I'm quite surpised that you won't recognize it as such.

Why of course you would think it is accurate and reasonable. And yet, it isn't. There are laws and statutes regarding killing by car, knife and/or gun.

[Firehead11]

Omg.......

[daniel green]

Now this puts me in a quandry. Let's not call it diprivan. Let's call it snake venom. If you inject snake venom into a person and kill them would you not be prosecuted for murder. snipped.

Dunno. But here is the problem. Injecting someone with snake venom doesn't have clinical/medical uses and was not administerd by a cardiologist.

But, interesting question and argument.

[ScoobyDoo]

Why of course you would think it is accurate and reasonable. And yet, it isn't. There are laws and statutes regarding killing by car, knife and/or gun.


But there is caselaw whether you want to acknowledge that or not.

[ScoobyDoo]

Dunno. But here is the problem. Injecting someone with snake venom doesn't have clinical/medical uses and was not administerd by a cardiologist.

But, interesting question and argument.


There is no clinical or medical use for treating insomnia with diprovan.

[daniel green]

Furthermore, in the snake venom scenario, another difference is that the person injected with said snake venom had not used snake venom for a decade and begged other health care folks for it. And was using several types of snakes' venom.

I just dunno how one gets to disregard for human life with Murray.

[retiredcop]

Its an accurate and reasonable analogy and I'm quite surpised that you won't recognize it as such.

It was a silly analogy. Reckless driving is not criminal unless the person driving was drunk and then it would be vehicular manslaughter. Nothing to do with Diprivan.

A gun is a dangerous weapon. Diprivan is not considered that under law.
A knife is a dangerous weapon also. Not Diprivan under law.

For an analogy you can't compare Diiprivan with a car, a knife, or a gun.

:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

California CCP 377.60

377.60. A cause of action for the death of a person caused by the
wrongful act or neglect of another may be asserted by any of the
following persons or by the decedent's personal representative on
their behalf:
(a) The decedent's surviving spouse, domestic partner, children,
and issue of deceased children, or, if there is no surviving issue of
the decedent, the persons, including the surviving spouse or
domestic partner, who would be entitled to the property of the
decedent by intestate succession.
(b) Whether or not qualified under subdivision (a), if they were
dependent on the decedent, the putative spouse, children of the
putative spouse, stepchildren, or parents.

Well, there you go. Thanks for the info.

[daniel green]

If a physician gave someone snake venom and the patient died, then, no he she/he would not be prosecuted for murder or any homicide.

[Cindylee]

Like I said... I am not a legal eagle. There is legal surviving issue.

I don't understand how Katherine can prove MJ was her sole support. She lives on a compound with some other Jackson children and many grandchildren. There is a staff who assists. She is married to a man who lives there and can support another home in LV.

JMO Katherine Jackson will be hard pressed to prove MJ was her sole support.

OK, that is true too. And didn't Janet pay for part of the house?

[Dunlurken]

Dayum..... snake venom..... can we say we are way off topic? JMO.

[daniel green]

Medical malpractice is professional negligence by act or omission by a health care provider in which care provided deviates from accepted standards of practice in the medical community and causes injury or death to the patient. Standards and regulations for medical malpractice vary by country and jurisdiction within countries. Medical professionals are required to maintain professional liability insurance to offset the risk and costs of lawsuits based on medical malpractice.

A doctor would be liable for (depending on the circumstances) such things as prescribing experimental drugs and performing cosmetic surgery.

The medical malpractice claim

The party
The plaintiff is or was the patient, or a legally designated partie acting on behalf of the patient, or – in the case of a wrongful-death suit – the executor or administrator of a deceased patient's estate.

Elements of the case
A plaintiff must establish all four elements of the tort of negligence for a successful medical malpractice claim.

A duty was owed - a legal duty exists whenever a hospital or health care provider undertakes care or treatment of a patient.

A duty was breached – the provider failed to conform to the relevant standard of care. The standard of care is proved by expert testimony or by obvious errors (the doctrine of res ipsa loquitur or the thing speaks for itself).

The breach caused an injury – The breach of duty was a proximate cause of the injury.

Damages – Without damages (losses which may be pecuniary or emotional), there is no basis for a claim, regardless of whether the medical provider was negligent. Likewise, damages can occur without negligence, for example, when someone dies from a fatal disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_malpractice

[Emerald]

OK, that is true too. And didn't Janet pay for part of the house?

I don't know? A few days ago, I read a linked article wth an interview of Branca. He said MJ made it very clear he did not want to support his siblings.

[Firehead11]

OT: Dunnie please check the "My Dad" thread,if you don't already know.

[ScoobyDoo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_malpractice

You are citing Tort Law when we are discussing criminal law.
:confused:

[Emerald]

Is it correct that Katherine's portion will revert to the trust in the event of her death? I remember hearing/reading this way back in the beginning.

Has the will been probated and placed in public record?

[daniel green]

Maybe not prosecuted but if overdosed with it I would bet it would be considered medical malpractice if it could be proven the physician made a mistake.

Well, sure. Just like I think is the case with Murray here. Although I don't believe that an over dose is in question in this case.

[Firehead11]

Is it correct that Katherine's portion will revert to the trust in the event of her death? I remember hearing/reading this way back in the beginning.

Has the will been probated and placed in public record?

It was rumored that upon her death, her 40% f the interest reverts back to the Michael Jackson Family Trust Fund until the children can inherit their share. In the end the children are to receive a total of 80% interest of said trust fund. Of course, we have not the trust fund papers and I believe the will has been filed. I believe the smoking gun has it.

[ScoobyDoo]

That is not a good comparison at all, as KILLING someone, whether by car, knife of gun is illegal. And there is no such law with regard to diprivan.




Colorado anesthesiologist convicted of reckless manslaughter for allegedly falling asleep during a routine ear operation on a child.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content...179/2/331#REF6


A challenge to you and RetiredCop:

Can you find a Colorado statute that specifically codifies it unlawful for an anesthesiologist to fall asleep during a routine operation?

[Cindylee]

I don't know? A few days ago, I read a linked article wth an interview of Branca. He said MJ made it very clear he did not want to support his siblings.
Yes, and he also said MJ didn't want his family involved with the decisions regarding his money. Which I think was a very smart move on his part.

[retiredcop]

Colorado anesthesiologist convicted of reckless manslaughter for allegedly falling asleep during a routine ear operation on a child.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content...179/2/331#REF6


A challenge to you and RetiredCop:

Can you find a Colorado statute that specifically codifies it unlawful for an anesthesiologist to fall asleep during a routine operation?

You've brought this up before. Was your link working then because it isn't working now?

Since this is a different state and a different set of circumstances, what are you trying to prove anyway?

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Maybe not prosecuted but if overdosed with it I would bet it would be considered medical malpractice if it could be proven the physician made a mistake.

At the very least I think he will lose his medical license for medical malpractice, if it is found he gave propofol to MJ without the proper equipment. I also think that there will be a case of possibly involuntary manslaughter. IMO anyways.

[Unperson1984]

If you believe that Dr. Murray acted with extreme recklessness, then you would have implied malice. Its apparent that you and I don't share the same view that the doctor was reckless.

I believe he was extremely reckless and I hope he can be convicted, but I have my doubts.

As you said "if a person commits an act that creates a substantial danger to human life, and he/she recognizes the danger..." How can it be proven that Murray recognized a danger if he and other doctors had administered the same drug in the past with no ill effects? In a case like this one proving Murray's state of mind will be next to impossible.

Ultimately the law must be changed to make convicting these white-collar drug dealers easier. Perhaps that will be the good that comes out of this tragedy.

IMO

[Cindylee]

I believe he was extremely reckless and I hope he can be convicted, but I have my doubts.

As you said "if a person commits an act that creates a substantial danger to human life, and he/she recognizes the danger..." How can it be proven that Murray recognized a danger if he and other doctors had administered the same drug in the past with no ill effects? In a case like this one proving Murray's state of mind will be next to impossible.

Ultimately the law must be changed to make convicting these white-collar drug dealers easier. Perhaps that will be the good that comes out of this tragedy.

IMO

As I have said before, it amazes me that a Dr. would put himself in this position. I know he was going to make a ton of money, I just think of the hard work and hours and hours it took to get through school. :ohmy: But, maybe between this case and the other that is pending, Dr.'s just might think twice. I hope so too.

[Unperson1984]

Now this puts me in a quandry. Let's not call it diprivan. Let's call it snake venom. If you inject snake venom into a person and kill them would you not be prosecuted for murder. I don't think that there is a specific law that prohibits one from doing that however I think that it makes Scooby's point quite valid.

There is one difference, MJ asked for diprivan and gave informed consent to receive it.

[Rayosunshine]

My friends husband had a massive heart attack and basically died when he lowed the lawn. EMS arrived and worked on him while in transport to local hospital. When he arrived at the hospital, they continued to work on him for over an hour, knowing full well that he would be brain damaged if they somehow suceeded.

IIRC, the room in which MJ was found was "extremely hot" according to reports. Would that affect the body's core temp?

Interesting that the room where MJ's body was found was "extremely hot". I guess the Doc turned up the heat to give him time to get his act together and try and confuse the issue on the time of death. Unfortunately, I am not sure how much this would raise core temperature and whether it would have made a difference.

Was there a case some time ago of a body being found in an extremely cold room? Could have been a murder mystery and not real.

[Rayosunshine]

I believe it has. They wanted to change it in 2005 but never did.

imo

IMO the pharmaceutical industry didn't get as big or successful by being stupid. Too bad Dr. Murray was just too stupid to realize this. I still stand by my feeling that he should be crucified for his heinous actions. (I hope I spelled some of those words correct - not sure if spellcheck is on this board)

[Firehead11]

Interesting that the room where MJ's body was found was "extremely hot". I guess the Doc turned up the heat to give him time to get his act together and try and confuse the issue on the time of death. Unfortunately, I am not sure how much this would raise core temperature and whether it would have made a difference.

Was there a case some time ago of a body being found in an extremely cold room? Could have been a murder mystery and not real.

Sounds like a case that was Forensic Files but I couldn't tell you the name of the person. The hubby murdered his wife, left her in an AC bedroom and went on a fishing trip with his buddies. Of course he kept calling home "frantic" because he couldn't reach his wife. Side note---- he was convicted of 1st degree murder.

It is troublesome when all the facts are not released and posters are left to speculate, but as I have stated--- even when facts are released, it does not always support one's opinion.

[Cindylee]

It isnt just the administration of Diprivan..but all the activities after the fact..his calls to his head office..removal of files..the failing to get help in a timely manner..the stupid CPR attempt..is just a few reasons this Doctor needs to be out of "Practice"...It is one thing to goof up..it is quite another to try and alter evidence..and delay help!!..I have a feeling MJ had been dead for some time..long before the 911 call.. What he did by infusing Diprivan is only ONE level..but I think it is the coverup and delay that will prove the most damaging!!

LMS

I think you could very well be right. I think he did all of the above too. I wonder if he kept up with his malpractice insurance? He had a lot of debt. For his family's sake I hope he paid that up.

[Rayosunshine]

There is one difference, MJ asked for diprivan and gave informed consent to receive it.

Giving informed consent is NOT a good reason to give something to someone that can and probably will cause harm, especially if personnel and equipment is not available in a crisis. That will not free Dr. Murray from malpractice/negligence and derelict of duty and it won't protect him from breaking the law by transporting drugs across the state lines and administering them in a state he had no license to do so.

Am an R.N. and my license is limited just as Dr. Murray's is - I can only practice in the state that I am licensed in, there is no reciprocation (I think that's what it's called). If I want to work in the next state, I need to apply for a license to do so.

I think Dr. Murray missed a few classes in medical school - the ones that dealt with responsibility.

[Rayosunshine]

Its an accurate and reasonable analogy and I'm quite surpised that you won't recognize it as such.

I agree with your analogy ScoobyDoo.

Dr. Murray acted with reckless disregard for human life and caused someone to die. And, informed consent does not give one person the right to endanger your life. IMO, he is an idiot of the nth degree.

[Rayosunshine]

We've been through this for pages and pages, day after day. Read upthread.

There is no statute or law controlling the use of diprivan. Period.

It is not illegal to administer it in a home.

It is stupid, but not criminal.

You may be right about there being no laws that control the use of diprivan. It's not the "laws" that will nail Dr. Murray, it's the "standards of care" and that is alot bigger than the law. Peer review will nail him to a cross. His own will make the judgement and it won't be good a good outcome for him. It is not criminal to administer Diprivan in the home, but it is acting with negligence and reckless disregard if you are not prepared for a crisis. He is not stupid, he is an idiot!

[Rayosunshine]

Am gonna go paint now, since I have no tranquilizers that will have to do. When I hear or read what Dr. Murray did or didn't do, I come unglued - I have a very hard time handling acts of medical negligence - I just can't handle it well. Thanks for letting me rant.

[retiredcop]

It isnt just the administration of Diprivan..but all the activities after the fact..his calls to his head office..removal of files..the failing to get help in a timely manner..the stupid CPR attempt..is just a few reasons this Doctor needs to be out of "Practice"...It is one thing to goof up..it is quite another to try and alter evidence..and delay help!!..I have a feeling MJ had been dead for some time..long before the 911 call.. What he did by infusing Diprivan is only ONE level..but I think it is the coverup and delay that will prove the most damaging!!

LMS

Cover up of what? I'm curious what you think he did to cover up the scene.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Cover up of what? I'm curious what you think he did to cover up the scene.

in my opinion

I think he did something at that scene, I am just not sure what. :smile:

[retiredcop]

Sorry..that video Dr, Murray gave to all his "fans'..makes me wanna lose my cookies..and I must add..his speaking and looks in that video is nothing like his "Portrait" pics his sites have exposed..LOL...he looks very much a man in STRESS...I have to laugh..because he knows and understands what he did was wrong..and his covering up increases his culpability and worse he allowed MJ to be subjectd to physical abuse to resuscitate..when he KNEW it was not going to help/change or revive the dead patient...That to me is "Inhumanity to Man"..and just for that fact..I find him "Dispicable"...I guess you have to understand, when you are around death and dying people..first and foremost, respect and acknowledgment is priority..You do not put family thru more anguish..never mind to abuse the patient by subjecting them to resuscitation..now that is nasty!!

LMS:thumbdown:

Why did the ER doctors attempt to resuscitate Mr Jackson for over an hour if they didn't think there was a chance? Why would those doctors resuscitate a dead man as you say. Are you saying they shouldn't have done that and just let him die?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I think he did something at that scene, I am just not sure what. :smile:

I, for one, have no idea at all what there was he was covering up. He didn't remove the Diprivan in the closet or all the medications the LAPD recovered with a search warrant 2 days later. He didn't remove the pole and empty bag attached to it.

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

I, for one, have no idea at all what there was he was covering up. He didn't remove the Diprivan in the closet or all the medications the LAPD recovered with a search warrant 2 days later. He didn't remove the pole and empty bag attached to it.

in my opinion

But, he did have someone go to the storage unit. And, we also have no idea what all was in that closet. So maybe he took other things. :shrug:

[retiredcop]

But, he did have someone go to the storage unit. And, we also have no idea what all was in that closet. So maybe he took other things. :shrug:

I don't know if he had someone go to the storage unit. Mr Jackson was alive then anyway so it doesn't matter. If he was going to take anything, I think it would be the Diprivan for obvious reasons. He didn't cover up anything as far as I'm concerned. Mr Jackson was not dead for 3 hours as some are saying.

If he were, the ER doctors wouldn't have tried to resuscitate him. There is no way to get around that fact.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

For Pete's sake, you're using facts and logic! IMO many have gotten their legal and medical information from TV dramaramas.
:smile:

Why don't I just give up?:biggrin:

in my opinion

[Emerald]

But, he did have someone go to the storage unit. And, we also have no idea what all was in that closet. So maybe he took other things. :shrug:

JMO

The trip to the storage unit has nothing directly to do with MJ. Maybe indirectly if Dr. Murray left him to call about removing stuff from the storage bin?

Wasn't that about 9 or 10 am in Houston? Dr's offices don't generally open before then.

[Cindylee]

Why don't I just give up?:biggrin:

in my opinion

Oh don't give up. I am going back and forth on this one. Maybe it is my new persona, I used to be so sure of myself. :lol:

[retiredcop]

JMO

The trip to the storage unit has nothing directly to do with MJ. Maybe indirectly if Dr. Murray left him to call about removing stuff from the storage bin?

Wasn't that about 9 or 10 am in Houston? Dr's offices don't generally open before then.

I forgot, how does anyone know Dr Murray made a call at that time anyway?

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

Giving informed consent is NOT a good reason to give something to someone that can and probably will cause harm, especially if personnel and equipment is not available in a crisis. That will not free Dr. Murray from malpractice/negligence and derelict of duty and it won't protect him from breaking the law by transporting drugs across the state lines and administering them in a state he had no license to do so.

Am an R.N. and my license is limited just as Dr. Murray's is - I can only practice in the state that I am licensed in, there is no reciprocation (I think that's what it's called). If I want to work in the next state, I need to apply for a license to do so.

I think Dr. Murray missed a few classes in medical school - the ones that dealt with responsibility.

I was responding to a post about administering snake venom.

Murray is licensed in California, but there are restrictions on his license regarding controlled drugs. However the drug in question is not a controlled drug.

I agree that Murray was reckless and his actions likely malpractice. The question is were they criminal?

[retiredcop]

Oh don't give up. I am going back and forth on this one. Maybe it is my new persona, I used to be so sure of myself. :lol:

I am very sure of one thing that we know is true. The ER doctors attempted to revive him when he arrived there. That means he was not dead for very long, if at all, or they would not have attempted to do so. :wink:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

I am very sure of one thing that we know is true. The ER doctors attempted to revive him when he arrived there. That means he was not dead for very long, if at all, or they would not have attempted to do so. :wink:

in my opinion


Well, yeah, there is that. And as you said, it is hard to get around that.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe not prosecuted but if overdosed with it I would bet it would be considered medical malpractice if it could be proven the physician made a mistake.

I think you have pointed out a very valid point. We know that it was legal for the doctor to have Propoval inside the home but if the autopsy shows that MJ was overdosed on it and that is what caused his death then I most certainly believe manslaughter charges are coming.... along with a WD lawsuit.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I am very sure of one thing that we know is true. The ER doctors attempted to revive him when he arrived there. That means he was not dead for very long, if at all, or they would not have attempted to do so. :wink:

in my opinion

Everyone that has spoken out in the media about this that I have heard said a licensed physician has much more weight into what decisions are to be made, than EMTs. Imo, had they not had a licensed physician at the scene they would have not tried to revive a dead man.

imo

[retiredcop]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/statement-from-ucla-medical-center-on-michael-jacksons-death_100209815.html


snipped:

Upon arriving at the hospital at approximately 1:14 p.m., a team of doctors, including emergency physicians and cardiologists, attempted to resuscitate him for a period of more than one hour but were unsuccessful.

He was pronounced dead at 2:26 pm. So he was worked on from 1:14 pm until 2:26 pm. This would never have happened if he had been dead for all those hours posters are speculating he was.

[Unperson1984]

I am very sure of one thing that we know is true. The ER doctors attempted to revive him when he arrived there. That means he was not dead for very long, if at all, or they would not have attempted to do so. :wink:

in my opinion

I agree retiredcop. I think the excellent trauma specialists at UCLA would immediately know the difference between a recently deceased person and a body which had been deceased for four hours. Too many changes occur during the first three hours after death, there is no way the UCLA doctors could have missed them. Especially since being in a warm room would have accelerated the signs of decomposition.

IMO

[retiredcop]

Everyone that has spoken out in the media about this that I have heard said a licensed physician has much more weight into what decisions are to be made, than EMTs. Imo, had they not had a licensed physician at the scene they would have not tried to revive a dead man.

imo

Ahhhh What about the ER doctors?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I agree retiredcop. I think the excellent trauma specialists at UCLA would immediately know the difference between a recently deceased person and a body which had been deceased for four hours. Too many changes occur during the first three hours after death, there is no way the UCLA doctors could have missed them. Especially since being in a warm room would have accelerated the signs of decomposition.

IMO

Thank you.:smile:

[Cindylee]

I think you have pointed out a very valid point. We know that it was legal for the doctor to have Propoval inside the home but if the autopsy shows that MJ was overdosed on it and that is what caused his death then I most certainly believe manslaughter charges are coming.... along with a WD lawsuit.

imo

But, is it possible to die while being on diprovan, without being overdosed. What I mean is that it doesn't take much from what my friend told me to have respiratory failure with this med, so rather than giving too much, he just wasn't monitored as he should have been. As I have said, per my ER friend, you need to check vitals every 3 min. ?????

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know if he had someone go to the storage unit. Mr Jackson was alive then anyway so it doesn't matter. If he was going to take anything, I think it would be the Diprivan for obvious reasons. He didn't cover up anything as far as I'm concerned. Mr Jackson was not dead for 3 hours as some are saying.

If he were, the ER doctors wouldn't have tried to resuscitate him. There is no way to get around that fact.

in my opinion

What time was ANS brought to the hospital and what time did they pronounce her dead? Many believe she was already dead in her motel suite before the ambulance was even called.

Now would the ER docs do it for plain Joe Schmoe? I doubt it.

And why would Murray still try to resuscitate even after the ER doctors had stopped? I think Murray wanted to hand MJ off to anyone and didn't want him being ruled dead with him the doc there on duty, so he passed him off to the EMTs and the ER docs because he wanted MJ to be pronounce dead anywhere other than on his watch.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

But, is it possible to die while being on diprovan, without being overdosed. What I mean is that it doesn't take much from what my friend told me to have respiratory failure with this med, so rather than giving too much, he just wasn't monitored as he should have been. As I have said, per my ER friend, you need to check vitals every 3 min. ?????

True it could be a combination of reckless and negligent behaviors.

If it is true he wasn't monitoring him throughout then that certainly is a reckless and negligent act but if he also overdosed him by giving him way too much which would have been lethal to any person being given it then imo that is gross negligence and shows a high disregard for human life.

imo

[retiredcop]

Please do!! All you have done for the past 949 posts of yours is repeat the same thing over and over and over again and again.. You may just have set a record for the most posts in the 37 days you have used your nic....

That's not true and you know it. There is simply no way Mr Jackson was dead all those hours before 911 was called and with that an extensive cover up being done. Besides he left the Diprivan in the closet, other drugs around that LAPD confiscated, and the pole and empty bag beside the bed. He was covering up nothing.

Stop being so snarky and posting personal things about me. This thread is not about me.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I don't believe dead people think

But the families left behind to deal with the loss do think.

imo

[Cindylee]

Does anyone remember when that guy retrieved the bag of drugs Geraldo reported about and where exactly he retrieved them from? Just curious.

I just remember someone giving it to Geraldo's brother.

[achristie]

I think you have pointed out a very valid point. We know that it was legal for the doctor to have Propoval inside the home but if the autopsy shows that MJ was overdosed on it and that is what caused his death then I most certainly believe manslaughter charges are coming.... along with a WD lawsuit.

imo

If there is anything positive gained from this tragedy, it is that anesthetics will now be classified as controlled substances. To think that such a drug was administered outside of the hospital setting (and, it seems, on a regular basis) is beyond my comprehension. At the minimum, any doctor who has participated should lose his license. Anesthetics have never been classified as controlled substances because no one ever imagined this would happen.

MOO Aggie

[retiredcop]

What time was ANS brought to the hospital and what time did they pronounce her dead? Many believe she was already dead in her motel suite before the ambulance was even called.

Now would the ER docs do it for plain Joe Schmoe? I doubt it.

And why would Murray still try to resuscitate even after the ER doctors had stopped? I think Murray wanted to hand MJ off to anyone and didn't want him being ruled dead with him the doc there on duty, so he passed him off to the EMTs and the ER docs because he wanted MJ to be pronounce dead anywhere other than on his watch.

imo

Ms Breeze,

ANS was pronounced dead almost as soon as she arrived in the ER.

The fact is the ER doctors would not have tried to resuscitate Mr Jackson if he had been dead for three hours like you post about. They are not stupid as you seem to think. They also don't follow orders from someone they don't even know.

Murray did no such thing as continue to try to resuscitate after the ER doctors called it. He did not have hospital privileges there and would not have been allowed to do so. He wasn't even known as a doctor there.

You are wrong on this. He was not dead all those hours and there was no cover up by Murray. That theory of yours is blown out of the water.

in my opinion

[achristie]

But, is it possible to die while being on diprovan, without being overdosed. What I mean is that it doesn't take much from what my friend told me to have respiratory failure with this med, so rather than giving too much, he just wasn't monitored as he should have been. As I have said, per my ER friend, you need to check vitals every 3 min. ?????

Exactly. It's an anesthetic. Close monitoring is imperative. It's a no brainer to any qualified physician. In fact, any physician worth their salt would never undertake it. They would leave it in the hands of an anesthesiologist, where it belongs.

MOO Aggie

[retiredcop]

Nothing personal meant. Click on your own name and your statistics are there. Open record in IS for all to see. Just as you can see mine the same way. You can cheat your own mind as to how long MJ was dead but you can't cheat mine. I choose to believe differently than you do.

And that's just fine with me if you chose to overlook the facts. It certainly doesn't bother me one bit. :rolleyes:

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

That's not true and you know it. There is simply no way Mr Jackson was dead all those hours before 911 was called and with that an extensive cover up being done. Besides he left the Diprivan in the closet, other drugs around that LAPD confiscated, and the pole and empty bag beside the bed. He was covering up nothing.

Stop being so snarky and posting personal things about me. This thread is not about me.

in my opinion

But you really have no clue either rc but you act like you know he was not dead for awhile before the EMTs came. The autopsy report is complete now. The Coroner and LAPD know the real facts about that and I have no doubt they have throughly interviewed all witnesses surrounding the tragic event and those who were in the presence of Murray that day.

Murray's behavior was odd to say the least. What doctor would want MJ to come back to life after so long with being flat lined and left in such terrible shape he would never be able to enjoy life again?? What is it? Six minutes tops in the best of conditions and after then there is irreversible brain damage?

Of course he left the diprivan in the closet. He takes the diprivan away from the home and everyone knows he was there when MJ died and then the autopsy report shows he had just been given (missing) Diprovan and it may have caused his death, don't you think that would be a little stupid of him to tamper with evidence?? Wouldn't that immediately be COG? I think he was a high and loose player but I do not think the man is dirt dumb.

He knew the Diprivan could be traced back to him and that they would find out where he purchased it from.

imo

[retiredcop]

Yes they do, especially Katherine. The grieving mother that is too busy THINKING how to get a bigger slice of pie than she was left by her dead son....the son she can't find the time to actually bury. all in my opinion.

Why yes, that's a grieving mother for sure.:laugh:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

I will admit................

Your theory actually makes more sense...but mine is far more interesting;) and would make a much better movie of the week! imo

:lol:..........

[retiredcop]

it is really no problem to prove Murray recognized the danger. Any doctor would definitely recognize it. In the past there were no ill effects because Propofol was administered correctly - with the necessary monitoring and equipment. Any doctor that administers Propofol without this like Murray would know how dangerous it is. imo

Except you don't know what equipment he had, now do you? I'm sure Mr Jackson got what he needed to have his fix. After all he had all that equipment before with another doctor.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

Ms Breeze,

ANS was pronounced dead almost as soon as she arrived in the ER.

The fact is the ER doctors would not have tried to resuscitate Mr Jackson if he had been dead for three hours like you post about. They are not stupid as you seem to think. They also don't follow orders from someone they don't even know.

Murray did no such thing as continue to try to resuscitate after the ER doctors called it. He did not have hospital privileges there and would not have been allowed to do so. He wasn't even known as a doctor there.

You are wrong on this. He was not dead all those hours and there was no cover up by Murray. That theory of yours is blown out of the water.

in my opinion

I am not sure that is quite the truth. They worked on her even though she was flat lined when she came in.

Yes, they do follow the lead of a licensed physician. They are of higher rank. The 911 operator had already been advised that one was on duty and waiting.

How do you know that? I doubt they were concerned about the doctor's credentials as he got out of the abulance with MJ and came into the hospital.

It isn't if he was dead for three hours, two hours or one hour. I think LAPD and the Coroner's office knows he was dead beyond the point of no return way before the 911 call was even placed and I think there will be evidence of that in the autopsy report.

imo

[Cindylee]

But you really have no clue either rc but you act like you know he was not dead for awhile before the EMTs came. The autopsy report is complete now. The Coroner and LAPD know the real facts about that and I have no doubt they have throughly interviewed all witnesses surrounding the tragic event and those who were in the presence of Murray that day.

Murray's behavior was odd to say the least. What doctor would want MJ to come back to life after so long with being flat lined and left in such terrible shape he would never be able to enjoy life again?? What is it? Six minutes tops in the best of conditions and after then there is irreversible brain damage?

Of course he left the diprivan in the closet. He takes the diprivan away from the home and everyone knows he was there when MJ died and then the autopsy report shows he had just been given (missing) Diprovan and it may have caused his death, don't you think that would be a little stupid of him to tamper with evidence?? Wouldn't that immediately be COG? I think he was a high and loose player but I do not think the man is dirt dumb.

He knew the Diprivan could be traced back to him and that they would find out where he purchased it from.

imo

But, how do you get around what Retiered Cop is saying about the ER?

[retiredcop]

I am not sure that is quite the truth. They worked on her even though she was flat lined when she came in.

Yes, they do follow the lead of a licensed physician. They are of higher rank. The 911 operator had already been advised that one was on duty and waiting.

How do you know that? I doubt they were concerned about the doctor's credentials as he got out of the abulance with MJ and came into the hospital.

It isn't if he was dead for three hours, two hours or one hour. I think LAPD and the Coroner's office knows he was dead beyond the point of no return way before the 911 call was even placed and I think there will be evidence of that in the autopsy report.

imo

I'm not talking about the EMTs. I'm talking about the ER doctors.
Geez
I think you need to educate yourself on how emergency rooms operate.
You are wrong about him being dead all that time and a big cover up. Period.

in my opinion

in my opinon

[retiredcop]

Just keeping it real!

I LOVE my theory, but I know it's far fetched.

I really like your theory too. Very interesting.:thumbsup:

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I think there were other drugs found in his system...ones Murray won't admit to administering and won't claim to know MJ was taking on his own. Demerol, Xanax and Oxy would be my guess.

Since it was said he gave a complete list of prescriptions to the ER docs that MJ was taking we will have to wait and see what he put on the list.

I don't know, he may have prescribed him other sedatives but the Coroner knows if those would have been lethal by themselves or if the combination is one of the reasons he died or the report could show that only traces of other drugs were found and he was overdosed on Diprivan and that is really what killed him.

I think Murray was a Dr. Feel Good long before he became the personal physician of MJs in May.

imo

[ellegna]

But, is it possible to die while being on diprovan, without being overdosed. What I mean is that it doesn't take much from what my friend told me to have respiratory failure with this med, so rather than giving too much, he just wasn't monitored as he should have been. As I have said, per my ER friend, you need to check vitals every 3 min. ?????

Here's a CNN video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1GdGMOJw4c

[Unperson1984]

it is really no problem to prove Murray recognized the danger. Any doctor would definitely recognize it. In the past there were no ill effects because Propofol was administered correctly - with the necessary monitoring and equipment. Any doctor that administers Propofol without this like Murray would know how dangerous it is. imo

How do you know it was administered with the necessary monitoring and equipment in the past?

Maybe MJ was just lucky in the past, or maybe he had taken another drug without telling Murray.

We just don't know, but if it were as cut and dried as some think why hasn't Murray been arrested?

[retiredcop]

Why thank you!

That would indeed make a great movie. I never thought of that myself.
It got me thinking hard!!!!!!!:wink:

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I'm not talking about the EMTs. I'm talking about the ER doctors.
Geez
I think you need to educate yourself on how emergency rooms operate.
You are wrong about him being dead all that time and a big cover up. Period.

in my opinion

in my opinon

Cover up by whom?

The delay in the 911 call when he was supposed to be doing CPR yet he stops and goes to the door and yells for Prince right in the middle of doing CPR shows how preposterous his trying to "save":rolleyes:a dead man was. He was desperately trying to bring a corpse back to life so that the poor man could be pronounced dead by someone other than him.

He was a no show that morning. He did not come down to get MJ his breakfast at 9:30 or 10 like normal because imo, he knew dead men dont eat.

You need to stop telling others what to think and how to think. I am perfectly capable of forming my own thoughts without your input.

IMO, you are wrong. MJ was already at the point of no return before the EMTs got there.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Murray can add this to his defense. Especially since he's allegedly claiming he wasn't aware MJ was a drug addict. MJ's death could have been a cumulative result of years of drug abuse. IMO

"The brain had to be soaked in formaldehyde for a few weeks to harden it before actually doing the forensic nitty gritty examination.

By examining the brain ...they can find out how many prior overdoses and when approx they occurred.



I am including the link...but WARNING GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS

http://books.google.com/books?id=KMf...esult&resnum=1


:biggrin: I would actually like to see him use that defense. I am sure the jury would roll their eyes :rolleyes: and think Murray would have to live under a rock or in a cave to not know MJ was a drug addict. Maybe they will be shown that big fancy home he lives in Las Vegas right in the middle of the action.

I think they are going to find out that Dr. Feel Good knows all about keeping high celebrities very happy.:wink:

imo

[daniel green]

I just remember someone giving it to Geraldo's brother.

And that it seemed, on its face, to be a total crock.

[Unperson1984]

Cover up by whom?

The delay in the 911 call when he was supposed to be doing CPR yet he stops and goes to the door and yells for Prince right in the middle of doing CPR shows how preposterous his trying to "save":rolleyes:a dead man was. He was desperately trying to bring a corpse back to life so that the poor man could be pronounced dead by someone other than him.

He was a no show that morning. He did not come down to get MJ his breakfast at 9:30 or 10 like normal because imo, he knew dead men dont eat.

You need to stop telling others what to think and how to think. I am perfectly capable of forming my own thoughts without your input.

IMO, you are wrong. MJ was already at the point of no return before the EMTs got there.

imo

I agree that MJ was likely at the point of no return when the EMT's arrived, but I don't believe he had been dead for hours.

[retiredcop]

Cover up by whom?

The delay in the 911 call when he was supposed to be doing CPR yet he stops and goes to the door and yells for Prince right in the middle of doing CPR shows how preposterous his trying to "save":rolleyes:a dead man was. He was desperately trying to bring a corpse back to life so that the poor man could be pronounced dead by someone other than him.

He was a no show that morning. He did not come down to get MJ his breakfast at 9:30 or 10 like normal because imo, he knew dead men dont eat.

You need to stop telling others what to think and how to think. I am perfectly capable of forming my own thoughts without your input.

IMO, you are wrong. MJ was already at the point of no return before the EMTs got there.

imo

Well, you were wrong when you were posting about Mr Jackson being secretly buried and you are wrong about this. I have never told you how to think.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

It isnt just the administration of Diprivan..but all the activities after the fact..his calls to his head office..removal of files..the failing to get help in a timely manner..the stupid CPR attempt..is just a few reasons this Doctor needs to be out of "Practice"...It is one thing to goof up..it is quite another to try and alter evidence..and delay help!!..I have a feeling MJ had been dead for some time..long before the 911 call.. What he did by infusing Diprivan is only ONE level..but I think it is the coverup and delay that will prove the most damaging!!

LMS

What law in CA covers calling 911 within a certain time range, pls?

[daniel green]

:biggrin: I would actually like to see him use that defense. I am sure the jury would roll their eyes :rolleyes: and think Murray would have to live under a rock or in a cave to not know MJ was a drug addict. Maybe they will be shown that big fancy home he lives in Las Vegas right in the middle of the action.

I think they are going to find out that Dr. Feel Good knows all about keeping high celebrities very happy.

imo

Why, you yourself post often and with great enthusiasm that he was not an addict and he was not taking anything but what Dr M gave him and he was perfectly fine the days before his death, etc.

What does money or a house have to do with this? If the doctor had charged $50/yr would it make it better? If he lived in a hut, it would be OK?

[daniel green]

The way I read it sounded like a crock to me too...I would just love to be able to see & hear it for myself. Maybe I could weave it into my theory! I've got MJ dead for about 5 hours. Murray sure had time after he cranked the heat...did some compressions, maybe run out another door, ditched the meds prescribed by other doctors using an aliases..run back...pump his chest some more...call for Prince....more chest compressions to keep that blood moving................

Oh, pls the very description of it was absurd. Geraldo's brother got possession of a secret stash of drugs out of some trash dumpster but the person who witnessed the doctor throwing it there thought Brother would do a better job with it that the LAPD. :rolleyes:

Not really sure about this, but I betcha that all cardiologists know that cranking up the heat brings up decomposition.

[daniel green]

Cover up of what? I'm curious what you think he did to cover up the scene.

in my opinion

He sure wasn't a good cover-upper, on account of how he left all the meds there and the IV and the pole and everything. :blushing:

[daniel green]

Interesting that the room where MJ's body was found was "extremely hot". snipped.

You reckon Dr Murray didn't know the obvious fact that cranking up the heat advances decomposition more rapidly?

[daniel green]

You may be right about there being no laws that control the use of diprivan. It's not the "laws" that will nail Dr. Murray, it's the "standards of care" and that is alot bigger than the law. Peer review will nail him to a cross. snipped!

Gosh, that peer review sounds harsh. :ohmy:

Oh, I know I am right about there not being any laws controlling the use of diprivan.

Standards of care is a lot bigger than the law? :confused:

[daniel green]

I think you have pointed out a very valid point. We know that it was legal for the doctor to have Propoval inside the home but if the autopsy shows that MJ was overdosed on it and that is what caused his death then I most certainly believe manslaughter charges are coming.... along with a WD lawsuit.

imo

All of the sources who have leaked to the press state that the autopsy found traces of diprivan.

[daniel green]

I agree retiredcop. I think the excellent trauma specialists at UCLA would immediately know the difference between a recently deceased person and a body which had been deceased for four hours. Too many changes occur during the first three hours after death, there is no way the UCLA doctors could have missed them. Especially since being in a warm room would have accelerated the signs of decomposition.

IMO

Well, that's what I get for answering posts as I read them. :blushing:

I find you have made my points well ahead of me, and more cogently, to boot!

[daniel green]

Now would the ER docs do it for plain Joe Schmoe? I doubt it.

And why would Murray still try to resuscitate even after the ER doctors had stopped?

snipped

imo

1) What an outrageous statement, really, to think that an ER the likes of UCLA (never mind UCLA, anywhere) treat patients differently.

2) Never happened.

[GentleBreeze]

But, how do you get around what Retiered Cop is saying about the ER?

I think it was based somewhat on the same ANS scenario.

The ones that found her in her room found no signs of life.

The EMTS came and they tried but still no signs of life.

The EMTs brought her to the hospital rather than calling the Coroner to the scene. IMO because she was ANS and they knew this was going to be a big deal.

ER worked on her too and it was longer than retiredcop is trying to say it was imo and they still got no sign of life.

From the room to the hospital ER room.........no signs of life were ever found even though all had tried.

Which imo, shows no matter how much someone wants to save someone when they have been expired too long they are gone for good.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

1) What an outrageous statement, really, to think that an ER the likes of UCLA (never mind UCLA, anywhere) treat patients differently.

2) Never happened.

:lol::lol: Yeah, right! LOL

[GentleBreeze]

All of the sources who have leaked to the press state that the autopsy found traces of diprivan.

I haven't read such articles.

I have read many articles that said that a lethal overdose of diprivan was found and traces of Xanax.

imo

[daniel green]

snipped

That opinion unlike yours is that MJ was dead in his home before being transported.

Not to point too fine a point on this, but the ER docs called the death and RC posted the time of death upthread.

So, whether or not he was "really" dead the day before or whatever, MJ died at the hospital.

[daniel green]

:lol::lol: Yeah, right! LOL

To clear that up, what I meant to say is 2) it never happened that the ER let Murray do any life support or to do anything with MJ once at the hospital.

[retiredcop]

I think it was based somewhat on the same ANS scenario.

The ones that found her in her room found no signs of life.

The EMTS came and they tried but still no signs of life.

The EMTs brought her to the hospital rather than calling the Coroner to the scene. IMO because she was ANS and they knew this was going to be a big deal.

ER worked on her too and it was longer than retiredcop is trying to say it was imo and they still got no sign of life.

From the room to the hospital ER room.........no signs of life were ever found even though all had tried.

Which imo, shows no matter how much someone wants to save someone when they have been expired too long they are gone for good.

imo

She was DOA.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

How do you know it was administered with the necessary monitoring and equipment in the past?

snipped

Good question. Every time I see that allegation posted here as fact it makes me wonder how on earth anyone knows that.

[daniel green]

True, and don't forget...Nurse Lee looked like a quack after you posted her website...you called it right off the bat! I had to eat crow that day!

Actually, despite all our posturing, and despite the poster-bashing that she endures on a daily basis, only RetiredCop has been right on the money about several things about this case.

[Cindylee]

Here's a CNN video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1GdGMOJw4c

Yes, thanks. Propofol works fast, and you wake up fast. If you are monitored. If not. Uh oh.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, you were wrong when you were posting about Mr Jackson being secretly buried and you are wrong about this. I have never told you how to think.

in my opinion

Oh, I see. You are one of those posters that drags around a scorecard.:rolleyes:

And we still don't know for sure that he hasn't already been buried. I haven't seen any of the media on the grounds of Forest Lawn for us to really know one way or the other. I formed my opinion based at the time on links that had come out saying he had. That part is really personal anyway between his family members only imo.

But him being buried or not buried has nothing to do with him being dead beyond the point of no return before Murray even started his 30 minute CPR but stopped and left his patient to yell for the man's son and the Chef. I thought one is to not stop CPR. In fact I don't think I have ever heard of someone doing CPR for 30 minutes. Also Murray said he had a pulse yet he does CPR instead of rescue breaths:confused: knowing that if one has a pulse by doing CPR it can damage the heart of the person.

imo

[daniel green]

Oh come on! How am I ever gonna sell my story to the National Enquirer if you keep shooting everything down?!

See...he cranked the heat to keep MJ's body temp up...did chest compressions intermittently to slow down lividity...I like it and I'm sticking to it! I have to have something to fill in those 5 hours besides calling to have those two women cart off evidence from his storage facility! Geraldo's buddy fills in that time nicely. all in my opinion

Well, be prepared for Katherine Jackson to file several lawsuits against it or as a result of.

I need to look up those stages of grief again. Lesse, is it denial, anger, sadness, or denial, anger, greed? :confused:

IMO

[daniel green]

And we still don't know for sure that he hasn't already been buried. snipped

Nah. We do know he isn't buried.

[GentleBreeze]

Actually, despite all our posturing, and despite the poster-bashing that she endures on a daily basis, only RetiredCop has been right on the money about several things about this case.

Such as?

imo

[daniel green]

In fact I don't think I have ever heard of someone doing CPR for 30 minutes. snipped

Oh, for way longer. Even in the hospital.

And we really know nothing about what went down in that house.

[retiredcop]

Actually, despite all our posturing, and despite the poster-bashing that she endures on a daily basis, only RetiredCop has been right on the money about several things about this case.

Thank you. That means a lot to me coming from you.:wink:

in my opinion

[Cindylee]

Oh, pls the very description of it was absurd. Geraldo's brother got possession of a secret stash of drugs out of some trash dumpster but the person who witnessed the doctor throwing it there thought Brother would do a better job with it that the LAPD. :rolleyes:

Not really sure about this, but I betcha that all cardiologists know that cranking up the heat brings up decomposition.


Oh come on, I liked that story about Geraldo's brother getting the secret stash. :laugh::wink:

[GentleBreeze]

To clear that up, what I meant to say is 2) it never happened that the ER let Murray do any life support or to do anything with MJ once at the hospital.

Oh he wasn't trying to go in and do a major surgery. I am sure it was total chaos and if he continued to do CPR after they had called it they wouldn't have thrown him out. I think he was allowed right in that room the entire time.......... from the time they knew his doctor would be arriving with him in the ambulance. Even the EMTs allowed him to be there.

imo

[daniel green]

Such as?

imo

That Murray was not in the ER providing care

That Nurse Lee had a totally off the wall practice and was trying to get her 15 mins and would provide nothing of value to police or case.

That EMTs do not take bodies to coroner's.

That's off the top of my head, late night fog settling in. You need more?

[daniel green]

Oh he wasn't trying to go in and do a major surgery. I am sure it was total chaos and if he continued to do CPR after they had called it they wouldn't have thrown him out. snipped

That is the opposite of what you posted a few posts ago. Then you said Murray had gone in and worked on MJ in the ER.

[daniel green]

Very true. She's very intuitive..must be that cop thing!

It must be.

The hinky meter.

Oh, and RetiredCop also was the first to say that there is no law governing the administration of diprivan.

[Cindylee]

Oh, I see. You are one of those posters that drags around a scorecard.:rolleyes:

And we still don't know for sure that he hasn't already been buried. I haven't seen any of the media on the grounds of Forest Lawn for us to really know one way or the other. I formed my opinion based at the time on links that had come out saying he had. That part is really personal anyway between his family members only imo.

But him being buried or not buried has nothing to do with him being dead beyond the point of no return before Murray even started his 30 minute CPR but stopped and left his patient to yell for the man's son and the Chef. I thought one is to not stop CPR. In fact I don't think I have ever heard of someone doing CPR for 30 minutes. Also Murray said he had a pulse yet he does CPR instead of rescue breaths:confused: knowing that if one has a pulse by doing CPR it can damage the heart of the person.

imo

Just wondering, where did the story that he called for Price come about? I know at first NG reported that MJ collapsed in front of Prince, and that was later stated that that was wrong. Then we heard that the Dr. left MJ and ran down to the kitchen and yelled for help, and it was said the kids were in another place in the house. Then all of a suden Prince was called. I really don't believe that.

[daniel green]

I caught the DD report on ET tonight and meant to remember to post a tidbit tonight and it's gone from my memory sieve. :cursing: LQ--did you catch it, by any chance?

[Cindylee]

I think it came from his chef
Really? I am have a dual personality problem. I can't remember anything. :laugh:

[Cindylee]

Nobody is right on in this case including me. All there is, is rumor, speculation and inuendo. No one has seen any reports and all the information we are grousing about comes from "sources" not any agency that knows what the heII the truth is. This endless circle of web conversation has no validity until and when the autopsy report comes out, if ever.

True, and I wonder if we ever will see that autopsy?

[GentleBreeze]

That Murray was not in the ER providing care

That Nurse Lee had a totally off the wall practice and was trying to get her 15 mins and would provide nothing of value to police or case.

That EMTs do not take bodies to coroner's.

That's off the top of my head, late night fog settling in. You need more?

Since when was retiredcop in the ER room when all of this transpired?

Not really. None of the things you have posted have been proven one way or the other.

Nurse Lee was contacted by LE who says she was looking for fame? Has LE come out and said that? If that is what she was looking for and LE knows it why interview and get her records at all.

I misspoke about the EMTs taking the bodies to the Coroner's office and admitted that but what does that have to do with being right about the evidence in this case. Just correcting a poster when they misspeak means they have been right about the case? Wow now that seems like some childish game play to me.


imo

[daniel green]

Since when was retiredcop in the ER room when all of this transpired?

Not really. None of the things you have posted have been proven one way or the other.

snipped

Nah, not really. About those things I mentione that RetiredCop has said, she was absolutely right.

The police did not contact Nurse Lee, btw. She contacted LARRY KING LIVE.

[ScoobyDoo]

Actually, despite all our posturing, and despite the poster-bashing that she endures on a daily basis, only RetiredCop has been right on the money about several things about this case.


Where do you constantly come up with this poster bashing? On a daily basis? I've read the same board, and have seen none of that.

[GentleBreeze]

Just wondering, where did the story that he called for Price come about? I know at first NG reported that MJ collapsed in front of Prince, and that was later stated that that was wrong. Then we heard that the Dr. left MJ and ran down to the kitchen and yelled for help, and it was said the kids were in another place in the house. Then all of a suden Prince was called. I really don't believe that.

Chef Kai talked about the events as they unfolded that day.

I think the videos may still be on GMA.

[daniel green]

Michael Jackson will be buried on what would have been his 51st birthday, publicists for the Jackson family said on Tuesday. The publicity firm Sunshine, Sachs & Associates announced that Mr. Jackson would be buried on Aug. 29 at 10 a.m., at Forest Lawn Memorial Park, above, in Glendale, Calif. The firm said that the burial ceremony would be private — limited to the Jackson family and close friends — but that there would be nearby accommodations for the news media. The Jackson family, the announcement said, “once again wishes to express its gratitude to Michael’s fans around the world for their support during these difficult times.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/arts/music/19arts-BURIALPLANSA_BRF.html

[Cindylee]

Since when was retiredcop in the ER room when all of this transpired?

Not really. None of the things you have posted have been proven one way or the other.

Nurse Lee was contacted by LE who says she was looking for fame? Has LE come out and said that? If that is what she was looking for and LE knows it why interview and get her records at all.

I misspoke about the EMTs taking the bodies to the Coroner's office and admitted that but what does that have to do with being right about the evidence in this case. Just correcting a poster when they misspeak means they have been right about the case? Wow now that seems like some childish game play to me.


imo


I too am having a hard time coming to grips with the ER personel working on an obviously dead body for an hour.

[Cindylee]

Chef Kai talked about the events as they unfolded that day.

I think the videos may still be on GMA. Thanks. I will look.
So many different stories.

[ScoobyDoo]

Do you close your eyes before hitting the enter key?


Which post number contains the bashing that you speak of? Especially bashing by me? Doesn't exist.

[Cindylee]

Yeah me too...I may have to abandon my own beloved theory soon.

Ha, I already did. I think. :laugh: But, I might change my mind tomorrow.

[ScoobyDoo]

Except you don't know what equipment he had, now do you? I'm sure Mr Jackson got what he needed to have his fix. After all he had all that equipment before with another doctor.

in my opinion


Of course the other doctor didn't kill him and delay calling 911 while he covered up his misdeed.

[ScoobyDoo]

I spoke of no such thing. I simply asked you a question


In other words, there is no post to support any claim of poster bashing. I didn't think so.

[tv4me]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson14-2009aug14,0,5491181.story

Michael Jackson's personal physician left the performer alone and under the influence of a powerful anesthetic to make telephone calls the morning the pop singer died, according to three people familiar with the investigation.

By the time the doctor had returned, Jackson had stopped breathing, the sources said.

Dr. Conrad Murray, identified in court records as a suspect in a police manslaughter investigation, legally acquired the operating room drug propofol from a Las Vegas pharmacy and gave it to Jackson as a treatment for insomnia, said the sources, who spoke on the condition that they not be named because the investigation was ongoing.



This is from the Los Angeles Times not some store rack rag. To me it doesn't matter if Jackson was a drug abuser or not. It doesn't matter if Murray gave Jackson the proper amount or not. HE LEFT HIS PATIENT ALONE! Wouldn't a doctor get fired for this if he had done this in a hospital; perhaps face charges and get his licence taken away? Why should Murray be any different.

Why did Murray try so hard to do CPR on Michael...it was his fault that Michael needed CPR and that his heart stopped. I would want the doctor's blood if he left one of my family members alone and my loved one died because of it.

If Murray had succeeded in bringing Michael back, wouldn't he have suffered brain damage for being without oxygen for so long?

Murray should be charged with malpractice imo.

[Cindylee]

I'm gonna hang onto mine until my fingernails are broken and bloody...or Friday. LOL Whichever come first! That long?????:lol:

[Cindylee]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson14-2009aug14,0,5491181.story



This is from the Los Angeles Times not some store rack rag. To me it doesn't matter if Jackson was a drug abuser or not. It doesn't matter if Murray gave Jackson the proper amount or not. HE LEFT HIS PATIENT ALONE! Wouldn't a doctor get fired for this if he had done this in a hospital; perhaps face charges and get his licence taken away? Why should Murray be any different.

Why did Murray try so hard to do CPR on Michael...it was his fault that Michael needed CPR and that his heart stopped. I would want the doctor's blood if he left one of my family members alone and my loved one died because of it.

If Murray had succeeded in bringing Michael back, wouldn't he have suffered brain damage for being without oxygen for so long?

Murray should be charged with malpractice imo.

I think he will be charged with malpractice. IMO too.

[Cindylee]

Malpractice is a civil matter and not a crime... I think, I think that he will be charged with malpractice, and lose his license. And I think, I think that he could also be charged with involuntary manslaughter, or some kind of negligence.

[ScoobyDoo]

actually the opposite is the case. Looks like some people cannot think and need everything spelled out in laws. That is is not possible. HOW Diprivan was used was illegal or criminal, if it was used the way it has been reported - without constant monitoring and without the equipment that is required. imo


Its ridiculous to think there would be a specific law on the books for every possible scenario. It wasn't the diprivan that is illegal, it was the reckless administration of it, which caused the death of Michael Jackson. I suppose thats why Dr. Murray continues to be the subject of a homicide investigation.

[Cindylee]

I do think he will be sued by Katherine on behalf of MJ's children for malpractice. I do think he may lose his licence if half of what we're reading is true.

I am not so sure about any charge directly related to MJ's death. IMO Too much depends on what other drugs were found in his body and who they were prescribed by and under whose names.

I think Murray would have a really good defense and I honestly doubt that Murray will ever face a trial. He may take a plea deal & roll on some other docs if they squeeze him hard enough. all IMO

Well, what we need is some new official information. Wouldn't that be nice? :wink:

[Cindylee]

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00026528.html

according to your article he is to be buried where the service was held.
I thought he was being buried in Glendale Forest Lawn. Call me :confused:

"Burial ceremony is planned to be kicked off at 10 A.M. at the same L.A. cemetery where his funeral was held back in July. The affair will be limited to family and close friends only, the representative informs Us Weekly. "The Jackson family once again wishes to express its gratitude to Michael's fans around the world for their support during these difficult times," adds the representative."

So am I confused, or are they?

And I did catch your mention of the of the manslaughter investigation. I think that is exactly what is happening.

[Cindylee]

He is.

Holly Terrace in the Grand Mausoleum at Glendale Forest Lawn Memorial Park. It is in the link posted above.

Right, but that isn't the Forest Lawn where they had the memorial service. And that article said it is in the same place.



"Burial ceremony is planned to be kicked off at 10 A.M. at the same L.A. cemetery where his funeral was held back in July. The affair will be limited to family and close friends only, the representative informs Us Weekly. "The Jackson family once again wishes to express its gratitude to Michael's fans around the world for their support during these difficult times," adds the representative."

[Cindylee]

Speaking of the funeral for MJ. By anouncing the whole thing, time and place, are they not asking for another nightmare of fans showing up? Is this maybe the point. Maybe I am being cynical.....but, really?????

ETA: And on his birthday no less.

[Rayosunshine]

I too am having a hard time coming to grips with the ER personel working on an obviously dead body for an hour.

Wonder if Michael had EMD when he arrived in the ER

[spydernweb2006]

I dont know about CA but in FL an EMT and ER/Hosp must by law try every form of resusitation, even if the person is obviously deceased. I learned this thru hospice when my Mother had cancer. We were told and given a huge sticker to put by the phone if anything happned to contact hospice not 911 because they would be forced to do a bunch of stuff to try and revive her, even with a living will. The living will would have to be validated before they could acknowledge it in an emergency.

So for the EMT's and ER to work on MJ even if he was apparently passed on would be normal and customary. To not attempt everything available could leave them wide open to a lawsuit for negligence.

As for Dr Murray, I believe we will see charges of some sort in time. I do not believe MJ died of any natural cause and criminal charges will result from his death.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder