Returning from Hell

[Carol25]

Howar Storm claims to have gone to hell, then Heaven and returned to being a different man. His story is enlightening and scary at the same time.

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html (http://www.near-death.com/storm.html)

In this account, more is learned. I especially liked the thought that was given to him. Any religion or spirituality is right if it brings you closer to God. That only makes sense.

In addition, Storm asked questions about the USA then back in 1985, and the answers he received were amazing! Remember, the second printing of his bopok was back in 2000, 15 years earlier he received these revelations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Storm)

[Emerald]

Why does no one ever ask about Earth's place in the Universe? What does the spirituality of humans mean in the grand scheme?

Don't get me wrong, because I appreciate that NDEs actually happen.

[MiamiNice1]

Howar Storm claims to have gone to hell, then Heaven and returned to being a different man. His story is enlightening and scary at the same time.

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html (http://www.near-death.com/storm.html)

In this account, more is learned. I especially liked the thought that was given to him. Any religion or spirituality is right if it brings you closer to God. That only makes sense.

In addition, Storm asked questions about the USA then back in 1985, and the answers he received were amazing! Remember, the second printing of his bopok was back in 2000, 15 years earlier he received these revelations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Storm)

What a fantastic read, Carol, thanks for bringing this here! NDE's are fascinating to me and it seems they all have some common thread.

This story reminded me of an elderly woman, a friend of the family, who was basically an atheist. She was on her death bed and according to her daughter, fell asleep for about an hour. Well, the elderly woman woke up TERRIFIED, ashen and shaking.

She says she dreamt that she had gone to Hell and that it was the most horrific experience she had ever had! That the demons were tormenting her, the ugliest, most vile creatures she had ever seen. She said she pleaded and begged to come back, invoking the name of Jesus.

Well, they called a hospital chaplain and she accepted Christ right there and then. She died the next day.

[Doc Holliday]

There is really only one way for the NDE to reach the status of "evidence of life after death".

The person has to "leave his body" and come into possession of information which is specific, unique, and readily verifiable in a controlled fashion.

Otherwise, the NDE is a fascinating creation of the most complex organ in the known universe - the human brain - but it offers no evidence of an afterlife.

One experiment has a laptop computer positioned in a strategic location at ceiling height in an operating room so that nobody at ground level can see what's on the screen. Every day an image is projected on the screen in random fashion. If anybody has an out of body experience in that room, and finds themselves 'floating' above the scene like so many people have reported, the laptop should be very obvious and easy to see.

Sad to say, there are no reports of any hits. I know the experiment lasted for about a year, but I don't know if any similar experiments are ongoing.

But if there was ever a hit on an experiment like that, that would be some evidence that the NDE is real. Otherwise, there is nothing. No good evidence.

As for the NDE experience itself, a small percentage of people describe hellish experiences, but most describe beautiful and pleasant ones. Much of it is influenced by religious beliefs (Christians see Jesus, Hindus have reported seeing various gods, and so forth. Atheists have had pleasant experiences too, and they mostly describe a 'being of light'. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you're condemned to have a nightmarish NDE).

Religious people who hold to the doctrine of soul sleeping, where there is nothingness until the day of resurrection, disbelieve the NDE on religious grounds. So, the reluctance to embrace the NDE as proof of life after death isn't just a quirk of atheistic scientists and the like.

Personally, I'd be delighted to find evidence of an afterlife. Maybe some day there will be. For now the afterlife remains what it's always been: a faith belief or hope.

[Carol25]

There is really only one way for the NDE to reach the status of "evidence of life after death".

{Respectfully snipped}

Personally, I'd be delighted to find evidence of an afterlife. Maybe some day there will be. For now the afterlife remains what it's always been: a faith belief or hope.

And Doc, isn't that just what spirituality is all about? Faith and Hope. This is what God intended!

[MiamiNice1]

Interesting to hear of the "laptop capturing" experiment, but at the same time, it did make me chuckle to imagine Science thinking they would capture an "out of body" Spirit. Someone was watching too much TV, imo.

Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen."


No one, of course, is saying that Athiests only see "Hell." But it is only logical that if they thought they were going to a "nice" place, no one would bother to "convert" when they came back to life after their NDE.

I just thought it eerie that the people who have NDEs seem to have many of the same experiences in their NDE or "dreams." Especially those going to "Heaven."

Religion is all about hope and faith. There is a saying by unknown -

"Faith is the daring of the soul to go farther than it can see."


imo

[Doc Holliday]

Miami,

The classic NDE usually includes the sensation of floating out of your body and looking down at yourself from above.

Thus the laptop experiment.

The laptop is positioned in a place so that if somebody is actually floating above their body, then they should be able to see the laptop and whatever is displayed on the screen. There is no way that a person standing on the floor can see the screen of the laptop. Whatever is displayed on the screen is changed by software in a random manner so that nobody knows what is on the screen at a given moment.

People who undergo procedures in that room are interviewed later to see if they had an out of body experience. If they claim that they did, then they are asked if they saw the laptop and what was on the screen.

If somebody says that they had a NDE, and that they saw the laptop as they were 'floating' above their body, and if they can correctly identify what was on the screen at that time, then that would be evidence that somehow their consciousness really was leaving the body and floating above.

[Details]

Our minds are so good at making things up, filling in the blanks - it takes something like that experiment to determine the truth.

If it was real - the question would be quickly answered - they could see the image. Something verifiable would be there.

[incidentally]

I knew someone, a Fire Fighter, who "died". As they were working on trying to save him and he remembered everything going on in the room. The commands the doctor was giving nurses, what the nurses were saying and doing. They were able to get him back and he told the doctor the about it the next day and he turned ashen. His recollection was so specific and exact.

He wrote about it in some book of similar experiences but I don't remember much about it any more. It was years ago and he has since died.

I guess that isn't a NDE, but he did say he could see his body, his open chest, hear all the sounds in the operating room..the beeping of machines, the doctor using a defibrillator, the ordering of medications into the IV.

I'm sorry I don't have a link but I used to have the book. He gave me a copy.

[Brentwood]

Why does no one ever ask about Earth's place in the Universe? What does the spirituality of humans mean in the grand scheme?

Don't get me wrong, because I appreciate that NDEs actually happen.

I believe that the physical reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one and our spiritual being/existence is our more natural state.

The physical state and existence is only a creation as a means to learn lessons to bring us closer to God. Our higher selves will choose to live many lives to achieve growth.

Has anyone here ever read Edgar Cayce? He wrote that he was taken out-of-body to heaven and hell and the physical world is just a physical manifestation of the spiritual aspiration of growth toward God.

[MiamiNice1]

Miami,

The classic NDE usually includes the sensation of floating out of your body and looking down at yourself from above.

Thus the laptop experiment.

The laptop is positioned in a place so that if somebody is actually floating above their body, then they should be able to see the laptop and whatever is displayed on the screen. There is no way that a person standing on the floor can see the screen of the laptop. Whatever is displayed on the screen is changed by software in a random manner so that nobody knows what is on the screen at a given moment.

People who undergo procedures in that room are interviewed later to see if they had an out of body experience. If they claim that they did, then they are asked if they saw the laptop and what was on the screen.

If somebody says that they had a NDE, and that they saw the laptop as they were 'floating' above their body, and if they can correctly identify what was on the screen at that time, then that would be evidence that somehow their consciousness really was leaving the body and floating above.

Oh, ok, thank you for the explanation. So, they are supposed to notice the laptop while having their out of body experience. Maybe the point of their out of body experience is to notice only specific things, certain happenings or events and nothing else?

I don't know.....imo, trying to "prove" something that is spiritual seems futile. While I understand Science needing proof, I believe there are certain things we must have faith in, things that cannot be seen.

I can't imagine why anyone would doubt their experience, especially when one describes those events like in the story incidentally related of the surgery.

:shrug:

[Details]

Oh, ok, thank you for the explanation. So, they are supposed to notice the laptop while having their out of body experience. Maybe the point of their out of body experience is to notice only specific things, certain happenings or events and nothing else?

I don't know.....imo, trying to "prove" something that is spiritual seems futile. While I understand Science needing proof, I believe there are certain things we must have faith in, things that cannot be seen.

I can't imagine why anyone would doubt their experience, especially when one describes those events like in the story incidentally related of the surgery.

:shrug:Experiences like those in surgery have more than one explanation - simply having his brain and ears more turned on than we'd expect explains being able to describe the commands, and the chest - it's not too hard to describe. If you were to try to prove OOB is REAL - you'd have to find something he could not have noticed from his body.

Some people believe in faith, others have different perspectives.

It seems too odd, too deliberate to think that OOB happens, but that you'll be stopped from seeing anything but that which is unprovable? The color of a nurse's shirt is meaningful, but not the laptop screen? What's the point of giving people logical minds, then saying they should not be used? Never makes sense to me. Others have different perspectives, but I don't think the scientific, proof based one has anything wrong with it.

[MiamiNice1]

I believe that the physical reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one and our spiritual being/existence is our more natural state.

The physical state and existence is only a creation as a means to learn lessons to bring us closer to God. Our higher selves will choose to live many lives to achieve growth.

Has anyone here ever read Edgar Cayce? He wrote that he was taken out-of-body to heaven and hell and the physical world is just a physical manifestation of the spiritual aspiration of growth toward God.

Well, this is certainly another way to look at it - I don't discount anything. I believe most of us do not tap into ANY of our God given gifts/spirituality.

I have not read Cayce's book about his out of body experience, but I do know of him. Cayce himself had difficulty integrating reincarnation with his Christianity. Like Cayce, I have a hard time accepting the reincarnation aspect.

[MiamiNice1]

Experiences like those in surgery have more than one explanation - simply having his brain and ears more turned on than we'd expect explains being able to describe the commands, and the chest - it's not too hard to describe. If you were to try to prove OOB is REAL - you'd have to find something he could not have noticed from his body.

Some people believe in faith, others have different perspectives.

It seems too odd, too deliberate to think that OOB happens, but that you'll be stopped from seeing anything but that which is unprovable? The color of a nurse's shirt is meaningful, but not the laptop screen? What's the point of giving people logical minds, then saying they should not be used? Never makes sense to me. Others have different perspectives, but I don't think the scientific, proof based one has anything wrong with it.

I understand what you are saying. I suppose I should expand my explanation to say that maybe the OOB experiences or the elderly lady's experience I posted - are soley for the benefit/spirituality of the person gifted with this particular experience.

Perhaps it is their personal journey, one meant to take them to a better place in their lives after having the experience?

[Doc Holliday]

Oh, ok, thank you for the explanation. So, they are supposed to notice the laptop while having their out of body experience. Maybe the point of their out of body experience is to notice only specific things, certain happenings or events and nothing else?

I don't know.....imo, trying to "prove" something that is spiritual seems futile. While I understand Science needing proof, I believe there are certain things we must have faith in, things that cannot be seen.

I can't imagine why anyone would doubt their experience, especially when one describes those events like in the story incidentally related of the surgery.

:shrug:

I don't think anybody doubts the experience; there is just a vast disagreement on what it means. Skeptics will dismiss the NDE as the creation of the human brain under duress, and believers will believe that they really ventured into an afterlife.

I don't see this type of experiment as trying to disprove anything, but rather trying to provide scientific evidence that the OBE is real. This experiment seems very well set up. There are good controls in place.

A positive hit would be a stunning event. Of course, in science you need replication, and so if the event was replicated then that would turn the world on end. Common ideas of the mind/brain relationship would be turned upside down.

There was a famous case not too long ago where somebody had an NDE and reported seeing a sneaker on the roof of the hospital. You would think "how could that person possibly have known about that sneaker laying on a rooftop?? She must really have seen it while out of her body". But when some people investigated it, they discovered that there was an opportunity for the person to see that sneaker from a window at some point during the hospital stay. So that ruins it right there - skeptics will just dismiss it by saying that the person's brain manufactured the whole thing. The sneaker is explained away because the person had the opportunity to notice the sneaker at some point, even if subconsciously! Her brain had the opportunity to notice it, even if her conscious awareness didn't take note of it. The sneaker case thus fails the test and doesn't rise to the level of evidence.

But a hit with the laptop experiment like this would be very hard, if not impossible, to explain away.

And yes, it is thought that they would notice the laptop. Vivid detail has been reported by people having this experience, including seeing the tops of light fixtures, dust and all.

In your response to Details:

Perhaps it is their personal journey, one meant to take them to a better place in their lives after having the experience?

Sure. Lives have been changed profoundly by the NDE. And, you can also argue that parts of the NDE - like the OBE - aren't really real in the sense that the mind has left the body and floated away, but rather that it is all part of the mental imagery as a person is transitioning to an afterlife. If that's the case, then you would never expect any positive results from the laptop experiments.

[Details]

I understand what you are saying. I suppose I should expand my explanation to say that maybe the OOB experiences or the elderly lady's experience I posted - are soley for the benefit/spirituality of the person gifted with this particular experience.

Perhaps it is their personal journey, one meant to take them to a better place in their lives after having the experience?Could be.

I don't think an attempt to verify is a way of denying someone's experiences, of course. Faith is what you believe without proof - it cannot be denied just because there is no proof. But to prove it for those who do not experience it - there has to be something stronger than the sneaker (a sneaker on a roof is hardly a rare occurrence), or dust on the tops of lights (anyone who has ever cleaned much at all, knows there will be dust on the tops of lights).

If it's real (and really OOB, not a spiritual experience meant to inspire), that's easy to do - the laptop test, any one of a number of others would prove it with every OOB.

[MiamiNice1]

Thank you for the detailed explanations and for articulating this so well, Doc. What you said in your post above (I've quoted it below)

I suppose this is what I have been trying to say and couldn't - that to me, it's about "a person transitioning into the afterlife" (a purely spiritual experience) which would render the laptop experiments futile:

Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Sure. Lives have been changed profoundly by the NDE. And, you can also argue that parts of the NDE - like the OBE - aren't really real in the sense that the mind has left the body and floated away, but rather that it is all part of the mental imagery as a person is transitioning to an afterlife. If that's the case, then you would never expect any positive results from the laptop experiments.

[Debb]

I was okay up until it got to the allegations about the infomation these spirits gave him such as America is a blessed nation and this and that will happen unless they change their ways...etc. I don't buy that kind of information coming from angels, devils, spirits, God, or anything else. It sounds too political to me.

Doesn't the Bible say that no man knows tomorrow? I'll have to look that up. I really want to believe in NDE very bad! I find myself thinking about my grandmother, aunt, uncle who have passed away and just wonder what they are doing? I know everybody says you go to heaven, but I thought the Bible said you are resting in paradise. Isn't that what the saved souls are doing when God returns to earth for the second coming? All the dead in Christ shall rise?

Didn't intend to get off topic. I'll do a little research and start a new thread.

[Details]

I was okay up until it got to the allegations about the infomation these spirits gave him such as America is a blessed nation and this and that will happen unless they change their ways...etc. I don't buy that kind of information coming from angels, devils, spirits, God, or anything else. It sounds too political to me.....To me - that's where the scientific side comes in. If you have an NDE, OOB, and it helps you in your life - that affects only you.

If you have one, and you want to say that what you learned should change how other people live their lives, maybe even how people should be forced to live their lives - you'd better have objective proof that what you saw was REAL.

[MiamiNice1]

To me - that's where the scientific side comes in. If you have an NDE, OOB, and it helps you in your life - that affects only you.

If you have one, and you want to say that what you learned should change how other people live their lives, maybe even how people should be forced to live their lives - you'd better have objective proof that what you saw was REAL.
I agree. BUT, there are many books "out there" giving advice, based on the author's personal life experiences and opinions. There are many people preaching, prohesying, lecturing and holding seminars on what they believe.

What I'm trying to say is that the NDE and OOB is just another one of those personal, spiritual experiences that people have - that some choose to relate it in a public way, then I suppose that is their prerogative.

We all have the right to reject, research, agree/disagree with the information given.....

[Details]

I absolutely agree. Barring proof - it is another person's opinion, another person's beliefs - no more, no less.

[Carol25]

There are so many reports of OBE's that it is hard to dismiss them. But most have something in common, how this experience changed people's life afterwards.

Even Howard Storm, who was a firim athiest had a comfortable secure position , not having to worry about his career. He gave all of that up to preach the Gospel. Major transitions have been noted in so many cases, that I feel the human will could not do that on it's own.

There had to be some sort of spiritual intervention take place.

And to proclaim that there would be global economic calamities in 1985, I felt was amazing. Back then no one would have believed our present dilemma.

[Doc Holliday]

Carol, it depends on what you mean by "dismiss". Skeptics don't deny the reality of the experience, they just say it's a product of the human brain.

And like Miami and I discussed, the OBE doesn't have to mean that your mind is really leaving your brain and floating at a distance of 12 feet at an angle of 45 degrees from your body, to take on spiritual significance. The whole thing might be the mental experience of somebody who is transitioning into an afterlife (which is 'someplace else, not here'). The sense of leaving your body and floating above it takes on symbolic significance, then.

People have been predicting economic and natural disasters for ages! It would be far more impressive if he said "wow, a housing bubble is going to inflate and blow up, taking a big chunk of the financial sector with it!"

[MiamiNice1]

Carol, it depends on what you mean by "dismiss". Skeptics don't deny the reality of the experience, they just say it's a product of the human brain.

And like Miami and I discussed, the OBE doesn't have to mean that your mind is really leaving your brain and floating at a distance of 12 feet at an angle of 45 degrees from your body, to take on spiritual significance. The whole thing might be the mental experience of somebody who is transitioning into an afterlife (which is 'someplace else, not here'). The sense of leaving your body and floating above it takes on symbolic significance, then.

People have been predicting economic and natural disasters for ages! It would be far more impressive if he said "wow, a housing bubble is going to inflate and blow up, taking a big chunk of the financial sector with it!"

(Bolding mine for emphasis) I agree with what you've written and I really find this explanation the most reasonable, Doc.

If this is the case, there is no proving or disproving the experience - faith is required - and only then, is it faith for only the person who has experienced this? Yes, people who seem to have had OBO or NDE do change their lives for the better.

Perhaps it could also be explained as: different people need different types of "epiphanies" in order to get their life on the track it should have been on in the first place, but somehow got sidetracked? Usually, it is through suffering that most people mature, but that isn't the only way. Maybe the OBO or NDE are just two more ways people get to the point of doing what was originally intended for their lives?

Sorry, kinda rambling here, thinking out loud....

I also agree with you regarding the predictions.....non-specific, generalized. Even Nostradamus' predictions can really only be understood in hindsight. Anyway, I believe this would be a whole other discussion. :)

[Doc Holliday]

Right, it can't be proved or disproved in a scientific fashion. It isn't falsifiable.

Now, some people (logical positivists) claim that something that can't be tested is 'meaningless'. Some go so far as to say that non-falsifiability equates automatically to 'false'. As the logician Ray Smullyan once said, I would love to see a proof of that proposition! The fact is, it might be true or it might be false, you simply can't test it scientifically.

Faith is required to believe it.

[Re-Poe]

I believe that the physical reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one and our spiritual being/existence is our more natural state.

The physical state and existence is only a creation as a means to learn lessons to bring us closer to God. Our higher selves will choose to live many lives to achieve growth.

Has anyone here ever read Edgar Cayce? He wrote that he was taken out-of-body to heaven and hell and the physical world is just a physical manifestation of the spiritual aspiration of growth toward God.

I have read a ton of stuff about Cayce and I believe he was one of the best.

I agree with your post. I have always believed there are many paths to God. That is why I believe we are told not to judge others because it is not up to us to decide who is who and what is what. We are suppose to love each other- help each other and forgive each other.

imo