8/12 thru 8/16

[daniel green]

Certainly MJ's death was an accident on Murray's part, the question is did his actions rise to the level of being performed "without due caution and circumspection."

I'd say that's a wobbler, it could go either way. LE will have to weigh MJ's request and consent to the administration of the drug in a home setting, and Murray's professional obligation as a licensed physician.

Yep, absolutely. And the fact MJ had done so for the last 10 yrs. And any mixture of other drugs in his system.

[retiredcop]

Certainly MJ's death was an accident on Murray's part, the question is did his actions rise to the level of being performed "without due caution and circumspection."

I'd say that's a wobbler, it could go either way. LE will have to weigh MJ's request and consent to the administration of the drug in a home setting, and Murray's professional obligation as a licensed physician.

I agree. What's in the tox report will make a difference as well as Mr Jackson's long use of that drug and other drugs as well. Also his consent to have the drug administered in his home. I think even if charges are filed against Dr. Murray it would be hard to get a conviction. This is why I'm thinking it will be ruled accidental. If Mr Jackson took something before the doctor administered that drug and didn't tell the doctor that would make it accidental.

I hope everything is going better for you.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I don't remember a single, solitary sole on this blog dispute that. You were arguing something else entirely.

in my opinion

:confused:

Originally Posted by Eagleeye
"Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder.
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill, a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought, which may involve an unintentional killing but with a willful disregard for life.
Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter."

Which IMO manslaughter is not homicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

[Poochie Pie]

And in reading that post..you referred to..you are assuming Diprivan is in no way part of the equation..so once again..LE will investigate to ends of the earth when something doesnt fit...and I am looking foreward to Dr. Murray being held accountable for the death of another thru incompetence and ignoring care and diligence when performing a "Healthcare" treatment..for what???Money???for seeking exposure for care of a famous person??Who knows??..who cares?..He did what he did, and his actions or lack there of caused a death to a very famous person...So much for his "Chance of a Lifetime"!!

LMS Perfect..!!! Thank you Lynda...

Poochie

[daniel green]

No wobbler to me Unperson..as a HC Professional..he had a DUTY to perform any and all treatments in a "SAFE MANNER"...which he didnt..so in my mind..no wobble..he was negligent..it makes no never mind if the patients wanted a treatment...the administer of that treatment has a duty!! snipped

Medical negligence is not the same thing as criminal culpability.

[daniel green]

It's been almost two months since Michael Jackson passed away June 25, and what once looked like an open-and-shut case has sparked a massive investigation. What is taking so long? Many things, some deeply intertwined and confusing. If the singer's autopsy report reveals other drugs besides the anesthesia Propofol, prosecutors will have a harder time building a case against Dr. Conrad Murray. As Jackson's personal physician, Murray is believed to have given Propofol to Michael on what was his final morning. But it could be a difficult case to argue he killed Jackson if the star were addicted to other prescription drugs. Reports say police found Propofol an Xanax in Jackson's autopsy."You have to show that the doctor knew about all of these other doctors prescribing other drugs," says one Los Angeles deputy D.A. "It's a classic problem."

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2009/08/why-is-michael-jackson-investigation-taking-so-long/

[GentleBreeze]

I think the confusion is LE and the coroner both define HOMICIDE differently.

The coroner defines it as ANY death resulting by the hand of another.

It doesn't matter if it's manslaughter or even self defense....both are listed as HOMICIDE. It's not up to the coroner's office to determine if it's a criminal case or civil or anything else...that's LE's job.

Homicide is homicide. To the Coroner and to LE.

There are varying degrees of homicide but if the person lost their life by the hand's of another it is a homicide.

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/H/Homicide.aspx

The word includes all occasions where one human being, by act or omission, takes away the life of another.


Murder and manslaughter are different kinds of homicides.

Executing a death-row inmate is another form of homicide, but one which is excusable in the eyes of the law.

Another excusable homicide is where a law enforcement officer shoots and kills a suspect who draws a weapon or shoots at that officer.[/B]

[who_is_it]

Homicide is homicide. To the Coroner and to LE.

There are varying degrees of homicide but if the person lost their life by the hand's of another it is a homicide.

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/H/Homicide.aspx

The word includes all occasions where one human being, by act or omission, takes away the life of another.


Murder and manslaughter are different kinds of homicides.

Executing a death-row inmate is another form of homicide, but one which is excusable in the eyes of the law.

Another excusable homicide is where a law enforcement officer shoots and kills a suspect who draws a weapon or shoots at that officer.[/b]

green: This is the essential imo.

[daniel green]

I guess..since you are not a Medical Professional..you would NOT realize what might have happened here..IF.......... Dr.Murray Infused Diprovan to MJ ( which he confessed to) is IS CULPIBLE..no Ifs ands or BUTS....as a 4 decade HC provider I can only state what Dr. Murray did and didnt do was GROSS NEGLIGENCE..snipped

Not sure how one has to be a "Medical Professional," either in real life or here, to know the vast difference between medical negligence and criminal culpability.

Even gross negligence, let's say, a doctor mistakenly amputates the wrong leg of a patient, is not a crime.

What gets repeated over and over again on this board, about how giving diprivan to anyone in a home is a crime, is just completely incorrect.

[daniel green]

snipped
daniel..I guess you dont know that us guys carry insurance for accusations alleging misconduct or medical negligence..it costs me 100's a year..however that only covers legal assistance.as someone could allege all sorts of things...quite a tightrope we walk...



I would daresay that 1) I am not the topic of discussion, just as no poster is ever to be the topic of discussion and that 2) insurance that PHYSICIANS carry (not nurses, btw, which is rarely done) is for malpractice claims. You know, a CIVIL matter. Not criminal.

[who_is_it]

I guess after reading the below article from Encyclopedia Britannica I am going to have to eat a slice of Humble Pie. Dang I hate that! :blushing:

"Anglo-American codes classify homicides into two or more separate crimes, each crime carrying its own penalty, which can be varied within limits by the sentencing authority. Thus, murder (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/398019/murder) is a homicide committed intentionally or as a result of the commission of another serious offense. The crime of manslaughter (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362828/manslaughter) includes killings that are the result of recklessness or a violent emotional outburst, as might result from provocation. Penalties for murder may include capital punishment (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/93902/capital-punishment) or life imprisonment, whereas the penalty for manslaughter is usually a maximum number of years in confinement."

http://karisable.com/extlnk/lnkframe.htm?http%3A//www.britannica.com/eb/article%3Feu%3D41787

The two of us had the same discussion a while ago. Back then you had a different opinion:

Eagleeye post #95:
"According to my Thesaurus, they are one in the same. Murder = Homicide and Homicide = Murder."
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356717&page=3

My wrong assumption homicide would be the same like manslaughter (and not murder) was blamed in the end on my language problem... which is kind of unfair as it seems to rack the brains of native speakers as well.

Will be on vacation for the next 3.5 weeks... and hope that the manslaughter discussion still continues when I'll be back.

:seeya:

[Poochie Pie]

If you will see my post #654 I have recanted my previous opinion and not so enjoying my humble pie. :mellow: Not to worry Eagleeye... We have all partaken of the "humble pie" at one time or another... This case has many twists and turns, and is far from the norm... (By the way... the pie is a lot more tolerable with lots of whipped cream) :wink:

Poochie

[Unperson1984]

No wobbler to me Unperson..as a HC Professional..he had a DUTY to perform any and all treatments in a "SAFE MANNER"...which he didnt..so in my mind..no wobble..he was negligent..it makes no never mind if the patients wanted a treatment...the administer of that treatment has a duty!! to do so under safe appropriate enviornment..which he dint then followed that with possible coverup actions???and furthering false at time information to the EMT's...I have to wonder why he even insisted they continue..when I beleve he KNEW MJ was DEAD..and was DEAD for longer than was a viable period of time....Dr. Murray in my view was trying to cover himself and his culpability..and hoped forensics wouldnt inculpate him..hummm..maybe it is why he ut off his initial interview for a few dayz???

LMS

I'm not sure it will be that cut and dried to the DA. If the case is weak he won't risk losing a case that’s this high-profile.

Without malice or intent, it's going to be difficult to call poor medical judgment a crime. Especially if MJ have received the same drug in the home numerous times in the past from other doctors without incident.

IMO

[Poochie Pie]

I'm not sure it will be that cut and dried to the DA. If the case is weak he won't risk losing a case that’s this high-profile.

Without malice or intent, it's going to be difficult to call poor medical judgment a crime. Especially if MJ have received the same drug in the home numerous times in the past from other doctors without incident.

IMO You know unperson... you make a very good point about a weak case... But, then again... "received the same drug in the home numerous times in the past from other doctors WITHOUT INCIDENT" gives me pause... Since this is a drug that cannot be administered by the recipient, wouldn't that cause LE to look even more closely at Dr. Murray..??

Poochie

[Unperson1984]

You know unperson... you make a very good point about a weak case... But, then again... "received the same drug in the home numerous times in the past from other doctors WITHOUT INCIDENT" gives me pause... Since this is a drug that cannot be administered by the recipient, wouldn't that cause LE to look even more closely at Dr. Murray..??

Poochie

I was actually thinking the opposite. Perhaps the reason they are looking at several doctors is to determine if any of those doctors purchased the drug and could have administered it to MJ.

It would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense for Murray.

[Poochie Pie]

I was actually thinking the opposite. Perhaps the reason they are looking at several doctors is to determine if any of those doctors purchased the drug and could have administered it to MJ.

It would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense for Murray. It absolutely would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense... However... the point I'm trying to make is that MJ didn't die when the other doctors administered it to him.. (if they did)... Know what I mean..??

Poochie

[GentleBreeze]

I was actually thinking the opposite. Perhaps the reason they are looking at several doctors is to determine if any of those doctors purchased the drug and could have administered it to MJ.

It would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense for Murray.

I think they listed the other doctors simply because their names were found on prescription drugs inside of the Holmby home. It is logical they would do so.

But I think the majority of evidence they are gathering in this case squarely has to do with Murray only. I have no doubt that the Judge in this case is astutely aware of Murray's rights and each and everytime another search warrant is signed off by this Judge, imo, he is demanding to have more probable cause shown why he should continue with these various search warrant that are connected to Murray.

It would not surprise me at all if this is not the first "favor" Murray has done for other high celebrites. He may be a Dr. Feel Good and has been for many years.

He seems to be a player and lady's man even though he is supposed to be married. I think the high lifestyle started way before MJ came into the picture.

I had even wondered if he perhaps left the premises while MJ was under since they said he only lived 8 miles from the Holmby home. His new baby's mama also happens to live in Santa Monica.

Home >> >> Jackson Doctor Didn't Live at Michael's Place
Jackson Doctor Didn't Live at Michael's Place
Posted Aug 15th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-house/

As for where Dr. Murray was staying, law enforcement sources say they have evidence he was living in Santa Monica -- approximately eight miles from Jackson's Holmby Hills home. Interestingly, Nicole Alvarez -- the woman who bore Dr. Murray's 7th child -- lives in a Santa Monica apartment.


imo

[Poochie Pie]

Just getting caught up.

I understand your point Unperson but when this drug is administered a doctor is required to monitor the patient continuously and have rescue equipment immediately available. Even in a hospital setting -- the patient is constantly monitored. I don't believe an anasthesiologist would walk out of the room where the patient is. I just cannot see how this would not be ruled reckless endangerment unless there are facts that have yet to be released that we have not been privy to. JMHO Xenam... I totally agree..!! Dr. Murray was being paid an exorbant amount of money to oversee MJ... Heck... If someone had paid me that kind of money, not only would I have sat by his bedside and "monitored" him as long as was needed... I would have paid someone to sit there and monitor ME... This whole tragedy reeks of someone's negligence... This drug was nothing to be played with... IMO

Poochie

[GentleBreeze]

Just getting caught up.

I understand your point Unperson but when this drug is administered a doctor is required to monitor the patient continuously and have rescue equipment immediately available. Even in a hospital setting -- the patient is constantly monitored. I don't believe an anesthesiologist would walk out of the room where the patient is. I just cannot see how this would not be ruled reckless endangerment unless there are facts that have yet to be released that we have not been privy to. JMHO

And I don't think there is a doctor either that is going to put his reputation on line and come into a court and testify that the way this drug was administered, under these circumstances, and without constantly monitoring a patient is acceptable in the medical profession. I think they will have to admit that this most likely would have been the end results due to the gross negligence done by a supposedly licensed physician that should have known better.

I haven't heard one doctor on tv, and there has been many who have weighed in, say "oh he should have been just fine and monitoring him wasn't necessary."

imo

[GentleBreeze]

It absolutely would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense... However... the point I'm trying to make is that MJ didn't die when the other doctors administered it to him.. (if they did)... Know what I mean..??

Poochie

That is the way I see it too, Poochie. If that were the case then that proves those doctors did it the proper way to ensure this was not the end result.

It just puts it all back on Murray's gross negligence and what HE did or did not do.... as MJ is dead now after Murray administered the Propovol.

imo

[Poochie Pie]

That is the way I see it too, Poochie. If that were the case then that proves those doctors did it the proper way to ensure this was not the end result.

It just puts it all back on Murray's gross negligence and what HE did or did not do.... as MJ is dead now after Murray administered the Propovol.

imo Exactly GB..!!! I read on here that during one of his tours, MJ traveled with an Anesthesiologist who possibly, from what we have learned, did administer propofol or diprivan... and obviously NOT with the results that Dr. Murray got... There is just no way around his culpability, IMO

Poochie

[who_is_it]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...27/acd.01.html

//snip//

I'm beginning to formulate a theory that there may have been -- there's a medicine called methadone that pain patients get on all the time these days. And there has been a rash of sudden deaths from that, with very serious cardiac rhythm disturbances. It has been reported with the combo with propofol. And a -- even a cardiologist wouldn't be able to bring a patient back from that.

My just -- myself -- it's pure speculation, but I have a feeling, when we get the toxicology report, you may hear about another medicine called methadone.

COOPER: Dr. Drew, what do you make of -- you know, there had been report that -- that, at one point, Jackson was taking dozens of -- of Xanax. Is that even possible? I mean, I know Xanax is highly...

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

COOPER: ... can be highly addictive...

PINSKY: Oh, yes.

COOPER: ... but dozens? I took half a Xanax one time after some operation, and, I mean, was knocked out. I couldn't -- you know, it's incredibly strong stuff.
<snipped>


I've already mentioned it before. Benzodiazepine (the substance of Xanax) and methadone are the substitutes which street addicts who take / took illegal drugs prefer as substitutes. These drugs are traded on a black market.

This is what I've heard about it:

Someone who's drugged up with methadone or -- let's say -- 10 benzodiazepine pills "only" can't produce coherent speech anymore. Benzodiazepine could cause extremely aggressive mood changes and even violent behavior (not like one would assume sedative effects) -- specially if combined with alcohol.

Imo it's very unlikely that Michael took "dozens" of Xanax pills during the months he was rehearsing. Everybody who surrounded him would have noticed it. Moreover a high dosage of benzodiazepine doesn't help to sleep but has -- like said before -- opposite effects.

I'm not informed what happens when the effect of these drugs fades; for methadone I would guess: withdrawal symptoms.

[who_is_it]

Here's a link which backs up what I claimed above about benzodiazepine:

"There is evidence that both acute and chronic administration of benzodiazepines (BZD) decrease c5HT neurotransmission (3,4). It would therefore be predicted that chronic BZD use may induce aggressive and impulsive behaviour. Indeed, there is some evidence that some BZD especially chlordiazepoxide and oxazepam enhance aggressive and violent behaviour (5,6)."
http://www.bcnc.org.uk/violent.html

"May induce" is very vague... but I repeat what I've posted above: I've heard it makes frequent users of higher dosages COMPLETELY freak out in an aggressive manner.

[Unperson1984]

It absolutely would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense... However... the point I'm trying to make is that MJ didn't die when the other doctors administered it to him.. (if they did)... Know what I mean..??

Poochie

I do, but an element of making this a criminal case is that Murray was being reckless and if it had been done often in the past the degree of recklessness would be greatly diminished. It would move his actions closer to bad medical judgment rather than criminal.

IMO

[Poochie Pie]

I've already mentioned it before. Benzodiazepine (the substance of Xanax) and methadone are the substitutes which street addicts who take / took illegal drugs prefer as substitutes. These drugs are traded on a black market.

This is what I've heard about it:

Someone who's drugged up with methadone or -- let's say -- 10 benzodiazepine pills "only" can't produce coherent speech anymore. Benzodiazepine could cause extremely aggressive mood changes and even violent behavior (not like one would assume sedative effects) -- specially if combined with alcohol.

Imo it's very unlikely that Michael took "dozens" of Xanax pills during the months he was rehearsing. Everybody who surrounded him would have noticed it. Moreover a high dosage of benzodiazepine doesn't help to sleep but has -- like said before -- opposite effects.

I'm not informed what happens when the effect of these drugs fades; for methadone I would guess: withdrawal symptoms. I agree that it is very unlikely that he took "dozens" of Xanax pills during the months he was rehearsing..!! I have a family member that takes it for severe panic attacks... has done so for years... and I assure you that if she were to take even 4 or 5, much less "dozens", she would be totally unable to function in any normal manner... I don't believe for a minute that MJ took 40 to 50 an evening as was stated by someone early on... IMO

Poochie

[Poochie Pie]

I do, but an element of making this a criminal case is that Murray was being reckless and if it had been done often in the past the degree of recklessness would be greatly diminished. It would move his actions closer to bad medical judgment rather than criminal.

IMO Understood... thanks for the reply..

Poochie

[GentleBreeze]

Didn't James Brown's wife die suddenly a few years back?

Does anyone know the particulars about her death. I read that Dr. Conrad Murray was her doctor at the time.

tia

[who_is_it]

I agree that it is very unlikely that he took "dozens" of Xanax pills during the months he was rehearsing..!! I have a family member that takes it for severe panic attacks... has done so for years... and I assure you that if she were to take even 4 or 5, much less "dozens", she would be totally unable to function in any normal manner... I don't believe for a minute that MJ took 40 to 50 an evening as was stated by someone early on... IMO

Poochie

Exactly, Poochie. Less dosage could cause panic attacks and also aggressive behavior imo. 40 to 50? -- Fabricated "story" imo.

[who_is_it]

Didn't James Brown's wife die suddenly a few years back?

Does anyone know the particulars about her death. I read that Dr. Conrad Murray was her doctor at the time.

tia

You've asked this before. I don't know, GB. It was also new to me that Dr. Murray was James Brown's doctor, too.

[GentleBreeze]

You've asked this before. I don't know, GB. It was also new to me that Dr. Murray was James Brown's doctor, too.

I did? My bad, sorry. I knew a poster put up a link mentioning something about it, I thought.

But I went and googled and he was her doctor and James Brown's too. Seems like he was known in Las Vegas as a Dr. Feel Good to celebrities.

The most I could find on Adrienne Brown was that she had PCP in her system and she did have some heart disease. She supposedly went into a coma and never woke up when she had liposuction in an unlicensed spa.

imo

[Poochie Pie]

I did? My bad, sorry. I knew a poster put up a link mentioning something about it, I thought.

But I went and googled and he was her doctor and James Brown's too. Seems like he was known in Las Vegas as a Dr. Feel Good to celebrities.

The most I could find on Adrienne Brown was that she had PCP in her system and she did have some heart disease. She supposedly went into a coma and never woke up when she had liposuction in an unlicensed spa.

imo Yep... I googled as well GB... LOTS of interesting info on some of those sites re Dr. Murray... :ohmy:

Poochie

[GentleBreeze]

Yep... I googled as well GB... LOTS of interesting info on some of those sites re Dr. Murray... :ohmy:

Poochie

I don't think Murray had to be pushed one little bit in doing this for MJ. I think he has been a player for quite awhile.

Probably the way he met all these ladies that he is having babies with left and right. :wink:

imo

[who_is_it]

I did? My bad, sorry. I knew a poster put up a link mentioning something about it, I thought.

But I went and googled and he was her doctor and James Brown's too. Seems like he was known in Las Vegas as a Dr. Feel Good to celebrities.

The most I could find on Adrienne Brown was that she had PCP in her system and she did have some heart disease. She supposedly went into a coma and never woke up when she had liposuction in an unlicensed spa.

imo

Sorry, GB, I could have confused you. I just remembered the question and that you once mentioned that Dr. M was James Brown's doc, too.

And by "asked before" I wanted to express that the question isn't ignored... but that I don't know.

Adrienne Brown must have been anesthesized for her surgery, too.

(Maybe that's too far-fetched) but at least Dr. M. must have known plastic surgeons; his forehead seems to be botoxed or had a forehead lifting (imo).

[forensicpsy~]

Didn't James Brown's wife die suddenly a few years back?

Does anyone know the particulars about her death. I read that Dr. Conrad Murray was her doctor at the time.

tia

IIRC she died in 1996 after undergoing liposuction in California. Her cause of death was PCP overdose and heart disease.

I don't know who her plastic surgeon was. I recently read that she was also treated by Dr.Murray but I don't think he was connected to the liposuction.

She also was rushed to a hospital in South Carolina in 1995 for a drug overdose.

imo

[who_is_it]

I agree that it is very unlikely that he took "dozens" of Xanax pills during the months he was rehearsing..!! I have a family member that takes it for severe panic attacks... has done so for years... and I assure you that if she were to take even 4 or 5, much less "dozens", she would be totally unable to function in any normal manner... I don't believe for a minute that MJ took 40 to 50 an evening as was stated by someone early on... IMO

Poochie

My reply before might have been confusing because you wrote she took it against panic attacks and I replied it could cause them. (Yes, I believe a too high dosage could cause or intensify them -- kind of paranoid state of mind.)

[Poochie Pie]

My reply before might have been confusing because you wrote she took it against panic attacks and I replied it could cause them. (Yes, I believe a too high dosage could cause or intensify them -- kind of paranoid state of mind.) No problem who_is_it...!! I was just saying that it is impossible, IMO, for MJ to have taken "dozens" of Xanax and still have been able to walk and talk... My family member has taken them for years and years... they are not candy.. that's for sure.. I agree with the "paranoid state of mind".. Good description..

Poochie

[who_is_it]

I did? My bad, sorry. I knew a poster put up a link mentioning something about it, I thought.

But I went and googled and he was her doctor and James Brown's too. Seems like he was known in Las Vegas as a Dr. Feel Good to celebrities.

The most I could find on Adrienne Brown was that she had PCP in her system and she did have some heart disease. She supposedly went into a coma and never woke up when she had liposuction in an unlicensed spa.

imo

Want to add to my reply above:

She died 2 days after the surgery -- not right after.

The source isn't the best..., it's "The Sun", sigh.

"Hollander [Brown's producer]claimed Brown's wife Adrienne was a patient of Murray's when she died."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2568373/Soul-star-James-Brown-had-same-doctor-as-Jackson.html

[who_is_it]

No problem who_is_it...!! I was just saying that it is impossible, IMO, for MJ to have taken "dozens" of Xanax and still have been able to walk and talk... My family member has taken them for years and years... they are not candy.. that's for sure.. I agree with the "paranoid state of mind".. Good description..

Poochie

I totally agree, Poochie!

[daniel green]

Hummming..daniel..you snipped as per usual..and as per usual you claim stuff you have no idea about..snipped

This is crossing the line of the TOS.

This is not personal, nor should it be. Personal comments are not supposed to be make and it really weakens arguments.

I absolutely know what I am talking about.

Nurses and even PA's fall under the physician/practice for whom they work.

That is neither here nor there, as Dr M is a physician.

And it doesn't change the fact that malpractice and a crime are two separate things.

[daniel green]

What gets repeated over and over again on this board, about how giving diprivan to anyone in a home is a crime, is just completely incorrect.[/QUOTE]

And that underlined and bolded is where you are compeltely WRONG!! IMO

LMS

Oh, absolutely not. If it is a crime, pls do post the link to the law about it being criminal to administer diprivan at home.

TIA

[daniel green]

snipped

The restraint hold used by center staff for behavioral issues may be a contributing factor in the child’s death. The center provides a day program for children with mental disorders.



Oh, don't get me started on those outrageous holds which have caused the deaths of so many institutionalized children. :cursing::cursing::cursing:

It's basically suffocating a kid.

[daniel green]

I'm not sure it will be that cut and dried to the DA. If the case is weak he won't risk losing a case that’s this high-profile.

Without malice or intent, it's going to be difficult to call poor medical judgment a crime. Especially if MJ have received the same drug in the home numerous times in the past from other doctors without incident.

IMO

Indeed. The bar on that is amazingly high.

They would have to charge every other doc who MJ persuaded to give him diprivan, as well, if it were a crime in and of itself.

At first I thought this would be a slam dunk, but the more I find out, the less I think it will be.

[daniel green]

It absolutely would be a smart move to anticipate it as a viable line of defense... However... the point I'm trying to make is that MJ didn't die when the other doctors administered it to him.. (if they did)... Know what I mean..??

Poochie

Luck of the draw, is all. He could have each and every time.

[Poochie Pie]

Luck of the draw, is all. He could have each and every time. I'm not so sure it was "luck of the draw", daniel... You are correct.. He could have each and every time... But... He didn't... Which leads me to wonder what happened THIS time....

Poochie

[February]

Luck of the draw, is all. He could have each and every time.


But he didn't. Just the facts please.

[daniel green]

snipped

And, Anderson, there just isn't a protocol for the treatment of insomnia on this planet that includes propofol, A. And, B, it is specifically a very serious problem for an addict, because, when it's combined with other things, it is likely to cause breathing problems.

And it's even been associated with very severe cardiac rhythm disturbances. We hear stories about Michael taking other medicines. The combination may have been the thing that really did him in.


I'm beginning to formulate a theory that there may have been -- there's a medicine called methadone that pain patients get on all the time these days. And there has been a rash of sudden deaths from that, with very serious cardiac rhythm disturbances. It has been reported with the combo with propofol. And a -- even a cardiologist wouldn't be able to bring a patient back from that.

My just -- myself -- it's pure speculation, but I have a feeling, when we get the toxicology report, you may hear about another medicine called methadone.

snipped.

Good observations, and, like him. I have no doubt that there were multiplte other drugs in is system. Make the direct cause of death a bit more difficult to pin down.

[daniel green]

But he didn't. Just the facts please.

But if administering dirprivan was illegal, or a crime, all those other times he had it, those would be crimes too. And it sure isn't going that way.

[daniel green]

I'm not so sure it was "luck of the draw", daniel... You are correct.. He could have each and every time... But... He didn't... Which leads me to wonder what happened THIS time....

Poochie

The real qestion is why didn't he die the other times over 10 yrs.

[daniel green]

I do, but an element of making this a criminal case is that Murray was being reckless and if it had been done often in the past the degree of recklessness would be greatly diminished. It would move his actions closer to bad medical judgment rather than criminal.

IMO

Yep. There you've got it.

[Poochie Pie]

The real qestion is why didn't he die the other times over 10 yrs. The answer to that could be pretty simple actually... He was monitored... Very closely... It is my opinion that Dr. Murray was lax in his duties... As I said before.. This drug was nothing to be played with.. Geez.. it is scary just to read about it...!

Poochie

[February]

The answer to that could be pretty simple actually... He was monitored... Very closely... It is my opinion that Dr. Murray was lax in his duties... As I said before.. This drug was nothing to be played with.. Geez.. it is scary just to read about it...!

Poochie


Dr Murray was very incompetent as a physician to Michael.
From reports I have read he has been amiss in other areas of responsibility in his life as well.
If Michael had a competent doctor, we wouldn't be discussing his death tonight.

[CanCan]

The real qestion is why didn't he die the other times over 10 yrs.

Because the dude administering the drug didn't dip out for a minute to catch a call.

[Poochie Pie]

The difference here however is that he was not being monitored properly. JMO My opinion as well, Xenam...

Poochie

[Unperson1984]

The answer to that could be pretty simple actually... He was monitored... Very closely... It is my opinion that Dr. Murray was lax in his duties... As I said before.. This drug was nothing to be played with.. Geez.. it is scary just to read about it...!

Poochie

Being "lax in his duties" would be malpractice, not homicide.

[February]

Being "lax in his duties" would be malpractice, not homicide.


You're right malpractice and Manslaughter.
Not homicide.

[Unperson1984]

You're right malpractice and Manslaughter.
Not homicide.

Manslaughter is homicide.

[impartial]

Being "lax in his duties" would be malpractice, not homicide.


:seeya: Unperson!


Anesthesia carries an inherent risk of death everytime it is administered. People die from anesthesia at the best of hands. Inherent risks that occur are not in and of themselves as a result of malpractice.

I haven't followed this closely at all. Has any evidence been released other than MJ was taking different meds (appears high doses) and Murray administering diprivan?

IMO

[Unperson1984]

:seeya: Unperson!


Anesthesia carries an inherent risk of death everytime it is administered. People die from anesthesia at the best of hands. Inherent risks that occur are not in and of themselves as a result of malpractice.

I haven't followed this closely at all. Has any evidence been released other than MJ was taking different meds (appears high doses) and Murray administering diprivan?

IMO

LTNS!

Rumors and more rumors.

How have you been? I sure miss the old hang out. :sad:

[impartial]

LTNS!

Rumors and more rumors.

How have you been? I sure miss the old hang out. :sad:


Been great, busy. I miss it too! I haven't been on this thread before, but saw that you posted, so wanted to say hi.

What I don't get is why use diprivan for sleep. It's short acting, and sedation is not sleep. As soon as the drug is stopped, the person wakes up, usually dehydrated and groggy. Weird choice for sleep.

IMO