8/12 thru 8/16

[sunstar]

How true. People are even given narcotics before they even go under anesthesia for surgery in a hospital. So to me the Xanax is not what killed him but Murray did by overdosing him on the Propovol.

imo

Exactly! It's all about properly administering the anesthesia, monitoring the patient while under, and having the necessary equipment right there in case something does go wrong. Anything else is negligent. MOO

[Roxxanne]

My dad had to get a script for it.

Okay thanks. So then if the Dr. came down with the tanks each morning, according to the cook, then there should be a paper trail there too then, right?

[sunstar]

Same here. Maybe it was time to renew his stash if he was only found with 8 hours worth.

Wasnt Dr Murray only onboard since May 11, or there abouts? And Michael passed on June 25th. I have wondered just how much he knew about Michael's past history and comsumption. I'm not excusing him in any way --- just wondering if he hit the ground running knowing what Michael needed and wanted. JMO

That's what I was thinking. What they found in the house might not be any indication of what was there to begin with. I believe though that Dr. M had just started staying at the house something like 10 days earlier. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I remember. MOO

[GentleBreeze]

Same here. Maybe it was time to renew his stash if he was only found with 8 hours worth.

Wasnt Dr Murray only onboard since May 11, or there abouts? And Michael passed on June 25th. I have wondered just how much he knew about Michael's past history and comsumption. I'm not excusing him in any way --- just wondering if he hit the ground running knowing what Michael needed and wanted. JMO

Like a talking head said today...... a doctor that says they didnt know that MJ was addicted to drugs must live under a rock.

imo

[Cindylee]

Okay thanks. So then if the Dr. came down with the tanks each morning, according to the cook, then there should be a paper trail there too then, right?

There sure should be.

[GentleBreeze]

That's what I was thinking. What they found in the house might not be any indication of what was there to begin with. I believe though that Dr. M had just started staying at the house something like 10 days earlier. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I remember. MOO

That is how I remember it too.........11 days before MJs death, iirc.

imo

[sunstar]

My dad had to get a script for it.

Wouldn't the doctor himself be able to get it without any questions though?

[Cindylee]

Exactly! It's all about properly administering the anesthesia, monitoring the patient while under, and having the necessary equipment right there in case something does go wrong. Anything else is negligent. MOO

And then there was the story about the Dr. being at some strip club while MJ was at the rehersal. I wonder if he had any drinks while he was at the club?

[tiptop]

Okay thanks. So then if the Dr. came down with the tanks each morning, according to the cook, then there should be a paper trail there too then, right?

lol - yes, one would think........

Some here seem so scared to love Michael if he were drug addict. Well, not me. Personally, I dont care what he did. It's a dang shame he had kids who are left to pick up the pieces, but to try and make so many excuses for him doesnt make sense to me.

Ultimately we are all responsible for ourselves. We can blame the doc, the chef, security, his family ------- everyone can become responsible. But in reality, Michael was responsible for Michael. Right or wrong, his money allowed him to have what he wanted. We can blame "disease" until we are blue in the face. But lets see how far it gets in court. Think the doc will be able to use that as a defense? JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Okay thanks. So then if the Dr. came down with the tanks each morning, according to the cook, then there should be a paper trail there too then, right?

My hubby just told me that any licensed physician is also able to obtain medical oxygen.

imo

[Cindylee]

Wouldn't the doctor himself be able to get it without any questions though?

Probably, but there would still be a paper trail. He would have to get it from a Oxygen company.

[Cindylee]

lol - yes, one would think........

Some here seem so scared to love Michael if he were drug addict. Well, not me. Personally, I dont care what he did. It's a dang shame he had kids who are left to pick up the pieces, but to try and make so many excuses for him doesnt make sense to me.

Ultimately we are all responsible for ourselves. We can blame the doc, the chef, security, his family ------- everyone can become responsible. But in reality, Michael was responsible for Michael. Right or wrong, his money allowed him to have what he wanted. We can blame "disease" until we are blue in the face. But lets see how far it gets in court. Think the doc will be able to use that as a defense? JMO

That has been my point all along. Good post. I agree.

[Cindylee]

Michael Jackson wasn't the only person in the world with stress & insomnia. IMO As much as people want to act like MJ has had it oh so rough...I can assure you there are millions in this country alone that have had it far far worse...and aren't drug addicts and don't do any of the weird stuff MJ is so often excused for doing due to his "childhood"

Thank you. I have said this before, and then come the excuses.

[GentleBreeze]

lol - yes, one would think........

Some here seem so scared to love Michael if he were drug addict. Well, not me. Personally, I don't care what he did. It's a dang shame he had kids who are left to pick up the pieces, but to try and make so many excuses for him doesn't make sense to me.

Ultimately we are all responsible for ourselves. We can blame the doc, the chef, security, his family ------- everyone can become responsible. But in reality, Michael was responsible for Michael. Right or wrong, his money allowed him to have what he wanted. We can blame "disease" until we are blue in the face. But lets see how far it gets in court. Think the doc will be able to use that as a defense? JMO

Whether MJ was a drug addict or not has nothing whatsoever do to with the actions or inactions, recklessness, gross negligence of Dr. Murray, who presumably was not an addict, but logical thinking with a clear mind. I do believe Murray knew all about his addiction yet he supplied his drugs to him as if he was a drug dealer instead of a licensed physician.

No addict is going to say no when the drugs are made at his disposal.

I dont understand what you mean when you include "the chef, security, his family." What do they have to do with the Doctor who is under investigation for administering Propovol that may in all likelihood killed Michael Jackson?:confused:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Michael Jackson wasn't the only person in the world with stress & insomnia. IMO As much as people want to act like MJ has had it oh so rough...I can assure you there are millions in this country alone that have had it far far worse...and aren't drug addicts and don't do any of the weird stuff MJ is so often excused for doing due to his "childhood"

You may be right. I have read that there is over 25 million people in this country addicted to prescription drugs and over 4,000 lives yearly are lost because of either bad combinations or overdoses.

He was just one among many who struggle with insomnia who have said they would practically do anything just to get some sleep.

imo

[tiptop]

I don't think trust had anything to do it. MJ wanted, what he wanted, and he knew he;d find someone willing to do it.


I think Michael grew strong and smart in many areas over time. In the beginning he was dependent on Joe but he learned how to deal with business folks and connect with people like John Braca who (apparently) served him well.

And I agree he shopped for those doctors who would look to the side while cashing checks. Maybe Murray wasnt like this; I dont know, I wasnt there. But if its all true - for a doc to give his this stuff on demand well, its not a good thing. Sounds like to me Doc Murray needed money. And this is why no matter what the rules, no matter what the punishment; people like Mike will always be able to find what they need. It will always be a part of our society because of money. JMO

[sunstar]

Probably, but there would still be a paper trail. He would have to get it from a Oxygen company.

Oh yes, and it would seem that he was returning the used tanks there and getting new ones, if what the chef says is true that she saw him going in and out with the tanks. MOO

[GentleBreeze]

Oh yes, and it would seem that he was returning the used tanks there and getting new ones, if what the chef says is true that she saw him going in and out with the tanks. MOO

Sounds like he was all for it.

ETA: He would need to return the empty tanks to get them refilled.

imo

[daniel green]

I not only think it's believable...I think was predictable!

And 100% disgusting.

[sunstar]

I don't think trust had anything to do it. MJ wanted, what he wanted, and he knew he;d find someone willing to do it.

I was thinking more of the fact that he chose diprivan which had to be administered by a doctor and he probably believed the doctor knew what he was doing while giving it to him. MOO

[Cindylee]

And 100% disgusting.

Remember, he wasn't his "son" he was "the King of Pop."

[daniel green]

snipped

No addict is going to say no when the drugs are made at his disposal.



That is factually untrue.

But, be that as it may, MJ for years and years and years got doctors so they could Rx him opiates, anesthetics, sedatives, etc.

That stash of drugs they found at NL is like nothing I have ever heard of in my life. Versed vials, injectable Demerol and on and on and on.

[on board!]

Thank you. I have said this before, and then come the excuses.

Non-substance related addiction actually gives an idea of the complex nature of drug addiction.

[Cindylee]

I was thinking more of the fact that he chose diprivan which had to be administered by a doctor and he probably believed the doctor knew what he was doing while giving it to him. MOO

I am sure he did think it was ok because he had a Dr. But, remember the story that he had a Dr. on tour with him before that was thought to be giving him Diprovan.....and that Dr. had a mini clinic with him, with all of the equipment that may have been needed. Wouldn't MJ notice the difference between what the first Dr. had, and what Dr. Murray had? :shrug:

[Cindylee]

That is factually untrue.

But, be that as it may, MJ for years and years and years got doctors so they could Rx him opiates, anesthetics, sedatives, etc.

That stash of drugs they found at NL is like nothing I have ever heard of in my life. Versed vials, injectable Demerol and on and on and on.

The only thing that comes close is ANS's drug list.

[daniel green]

The only thing that comes close is ANS's drug list.

But not even hers was that bad.

[GentleBreeze]

But not even hers was that bad.

How do we know what drugs he was using around the time of his death?

Wasnt that way back years ago and some of them were even expired, iirc.

imo

[Cindylee]

But not even hers was that bad.

No it wasn't. Her "diprovan" was the chloral hydrate. Which doesn't really compare to diprovan.

[Cindylee]

I got all the oxygen equipment, tanks, oxygen generator and portable refillable tanks at our local medical supply company for my mother before she passed on. We filled the portables from a large tank in the garage they supplied. We got the script through Hospice.

Yes, they just call on Friday to see what my dad needs for the next week.

[Cindylee]

How do we know what drugs he was using around the time of his death?

Wasnt that way back years ago and some of them were even expired, iirc.

imo

We don't. Yet.

[Mamie]

I am sure he did think it was ok because he had a Dr. But, remember the story that he had a Dr. on tour with him before that was thought to be giving him Diprovan.....and that Dr. had a mini clinic with him, with all of the equipment that may have been needed. Wouldn't MJ notice the difference between what the first Dr. had, and what Dr. Murray had? :shrug:

Not necessarily-----it's a sales pitch by the doctor and if MJ likes the doctor he's going to believe what he tells him. Old sales saying goes something like this IIRC, "After you sell yourself, you can tell them basically anything."-----Something close to that. JMO

[Cindylee]

Not necessarily-----it's a sales pitch by the doctor and if MJ likes the doctor he's going to believe what he tells him. Old sales saying goes something like this IIRC, "After you sell yourself, you can tell them basically anything."-----Something close to that. JMO

I would think he would notice the lack of equipment. :confused:

[sunstar]

Not necessarily-----it's a sales pitch by the doctor and if MJ likes the doctor he's going to believe what he tells him. Old sales saying goes something like this IIRC, "After you sell yourself, you can tell them basically anything."-----Something close to that. JMO

I also think that a desperate (for money) smooth talking doctor could easily convince an equally desperate (for sleep) patient that all that equipment wasn't necessary. After all, there hadn't been any problems before. MOO

[Cindylee]

I also think that a desperate (for money) smooth talking doctor could easily convince an equally desperate (for sleep) patient that all that equipment wasn't necessary. After all, there hadn't been any problems before. MOO

It would be interesting to know how often MJ used the Diprovan, and who all gave it to him before Dr. Murray. So far all we have really heard about is the anesthesiologist that traveled with him on one of the tours. What happened in between? Did he go in for surgery just because of the diprovan?

[tiptop]

I also think that a desperate (for money) smooth talking doctor could easily convince an equally desperate (for sleep) patient that all that equipment wasn't necessary. After all, there hadn't been any problems before. MOO

This is kinda along my line of thinking too --- does anyone know how Michael and Dr Murray met?

[sunstar]

This is kinda along my line of thinking too --- does anyone know how Michael and Dr Murray met?

I've read they met in Las Vegas and Dr. M treated one of the children. Don't know why they'd need a cardiologist though! :shrug: MOO

[Cindylee]

This is kinda along my line of thinking too --- does anyone know how Michael and Dr Murray met?

The only thing I heard was that when MJ was in Vegas, one of the kids was sick or something, and someone recommended Dr. Murray. Now I am questioning that story.

[sunstar]

It would be interesting to know how often MJ used the Diprovan, and who all gave it to him before Dr. Murray. So far all we have really heard about is the anesthesiologist that traveled with him on one of the tours. What happened in between? Did he go in for surgery just because of the diprovan?

Didn't something come out about the possibility of Dr. K using it also? MOO

[Cindylee]

Didn't something come out about the possibility of Dr. K using it also? MOO

I am pretty sure that Dr. K used it in his practice. That might explain a lot of MJ's visits to Dr. K.

[Mamie]

I would think he would notice the lack of equipment. :confused:

Hence, the sales pitch......

[sunstar]

I am pretty sure that Dr. K used it in his practice. That might explain a lot of MJ's visits to Dr. K.

I think that is very possible! MOO

[daniel green]

No it wasn't. Her "diprovan" was the chloral hydrate. Which doesn't really compare to diprovan.

Gosh, no. It's not even in the same universe.

[sunstar]

Hence, the sales pitch......

Almost like the one he tried to give to explain his CPR technique ~ on the bed. :sneaky: MOO

[tiptop]

Almost like the one he tried to give to explain his CPR technique ~ on the bed. :sneaky: MOO


Oh yeah. I wondered if that was panic and for show because Michael was already dead. JMO

[sunstar]

Oh yeah. I wondered if that was panic and for show because Michael was already dead. JMO

I think it was for "show" and he was in a panicked state because he knew what happened, so he momentarily forgot that the patient should be on a hard surface. Then he tried to explain it away as some new technique. MOO

[sunstar]

Have a good night everybody! :seeya:

[Cindylee]

Have a good night everybody! :seeya:

:seeya: Good night.

[tiptop]

The only thing I heard was that when MJ was in Vegas, one of the kids was sick or something, and someone recommended Dr. Murray. Now I am questioning that story.

Hmmmmm, I remember that now. But I wonder who recommended Dr Murray? There was speculation at the time about a cardiologist seeing one of the kids. Although I dont recall hearing why he saw the child. JMO

[Cindylee]

Hmmmmm, I remember that now. But I wonder who recommended Dr Murray? There was speculation at the time about a cardiologist seeing one of the kids. Although I dont recall hearing why he saw the child. JMO

I remember something about one of his security guards recommending Dr. Murray, but now that I know that James Brown also used Murray (I am now not going to use the DR. part of his name, because I don't think he was a Dr.) I think maybe he got the name from James Brown. But, I have no idea really.

[tiptop]

I remember something about one of his security guards recommending Dr. Murray, but now that I know that James Brown also used Murray (I am now not going to use the DR. part of his name, because I don't think he was a Dr.) I think maybe he got the name from James Brown. But, I have no idea really.

Yep, JB's doc and also JB's wife's doc (allegedly) when she died.

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_272627244.shtml

[Cindylee]

Yep, JB's doc and also JB's wife's doc (allegedly) when she died.

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_272627244.shtml

Interesting. It gets stranger and stranger. How did Murray stay in business for so long?

[Cindylee]

Slow night. I think I need more West Coast folks to talk to. :biggrin:

[Rayosunshine]

Oh yeah. I wondered if that was panic and for show because Michael was already dead. JMO

Any speculation as to how long MJ was dead before EMS was called? Did I hear in the past that when EMS arrived he was cold and his body temp was very low (seems like I remember this). ME can certainly tell how long a person has been deceased by body temperature, with in a very small margin, I would think.

I think MJ was dead long, long before EMS was called, while CM figured out what he would say and what he would do, or better yet, what he did do during the time lapse.

[Emerald]

http://www.hollyscoop.com/michael-jackson/paris-jackson-struggling-to-cope-with-michael-jacksons-death_21202.aspx

Paris Jackson Struggling to Cope With Michael Jackson's Death

Michael Jackson daughter Paris is really struggling to cope with her Dad's death, and is reportedly turning to Katherine Jackson to deal with her loss.

“Paris is struggling the most since Michael’s death,” a source told Britain’s Now magazine. “She was her daddy’s girl. He was her best friend and he was so proud of her. She’s really heartbroken and she misses him so much.

“She keeps having dreams that he’s still alive, then when she wakes up and realizes he’s dead, she starts sobbing. It’s horrible. Prince Michael has been great — he’s rising to the occasion and trying to be strong, but he’s suffering too.”


Whoever wrote this article is an idiot, IMO.

Paris' grief does NOT show weakness. She 'rose to the occasion' at the memorial. Tabloid tv and all media were harping on perceived shortcomings of MJ. Paris stood them down by championing her Daddy.

People grieve in different ways. If at some point Prince Michael breaks down and weeps uncontrollably, by no means does it mean he is weak.

Speaking about the circumstances surrounding the children in recent court cases is okay, IMO. The Jackson Family has contributed to that circus.

However, speculating about the children is completely off limits, IMO.

[Emerald]

I could imagine he "excused" or played down the risks of the drug by the fact that a doctor administers it like: If a doctor gives it to me it must be safe.

JMO

MJ was seeing and ignoring serious red flags when he had a hard time finding someone to administer the drug. He was told "No" more than once and why. Otherwise, MJ would not have had to so fervently shop.

I've had day surgery numerous times. Never woke feeling rested and energetic. Don't know that Propofol was used.

[flipflop]

Michael Jackson's Deep Freeze

Posted Aug 15th 2009 2:15AM by TMZ Staff

Michael JacksonMichael Jackson has not been buried, multiple family sources tell us. We're told he's above ground at Forest Lawn Hollywood Hills and is being kept in a freezer.

We're told Katherine has frequently visited the temporary resting place.

As for where the body is eventually going ... no decision yet. We're told Jermaine is the lone family member who wants Neverland as Michael's final resting place. The rest of the family is appalled by Jermaine's wish, because M.J. hated Neverland after the molestation trial and wanted nothing to do with it.

Increasingly, Jermaine is becoming estranged from the rest of the Jackson brood.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/michael-jackson-body-buried-forest-lawn/

[flipflop]

Jackson Familly Shut Out of Jermaine's Plans

Posted Aug 15th 2009 1:20AM by TMZ Staff

Jermaine Jackson is learning a hard lesson -- the Jackson family doesn't take kindly to kinfolk who make promises on their behalf without even bothering to tell them.

You know the big flap over the Vienna Tribute concert -- where Jermaine was spearheading a special show and touting that members of Michael Jackson's family were behind it? Well family sources tell us the family is ticked that Jermaine used them to sell tickets. The family, we're told, never agreed to participate. In fact, Tito told us he was never even invited.

The family isn't happy with J.J. because the concert may now be in jeopardy and stories are being written that the brood caused the concert to crumble.

Bottom line -- Jermaine was out on his own (again) pitching his stuff and the family was out of the loop.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/jermaine-jackson-vienna-tribute-concert/

[Emerald]

Not one, single member of the Jackson Family is supporting Jermaine in this?

Or are they scared to seem to be supporting him for fear of reprisals in hte Family?

JMO.... Jermaine is the one who immediately began making public statements that MJ's wishes should be followed to the letter of the will. Joe Jackson is the one who tried to totally discount everything MJ wanted to make the estate under his own control.

IMO

[Firehead11]

Because...like you said, "No addict is going to say no when the drugs are made at his disposal."

IMO, this doesn't make a lick of sense to QB post. We do not know what drugs MJ was on right before his death. We have no idea what prescriptions were found in June 2009. That infomation has not been released.

[retiredcop]

I also think that a desperate (for money) smooth talking doctor could easily convince an equally desperate (for sleep) patient that all that equipment wasn't necessary. After all, there hadn't been any problems before. MOO

We don't even know what medical equipment was in that room. There could have been all the equipment necessary for administering Diprivan.
After all, a doctor did administer it to Mr Jackson before and had all the equipment necessary.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

One of the reasons for doctor shopping is so one doctor doesn't know about the other and what is being prescribed. Wasn't it said there were 9 doctors being investigated and Mr Jackson had 19 different aliases? I believe Dr Murray could not have known about all the medications Mr Jackson was taking. Mr. Jackson wasn't going to be honest because he knew he wouldn't get the Diprivan. I believe Mr Jackson was popping pills without Dr Murray knowing before the Diprivan treatments. The last treatment when he died, Mr Jackson popped one too many or something that didn't mix well.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

One of the reasons for doctor shopping is so one doctor doesn't know about the other and what is being prescribed. Wasn't it said there were 9 doctors being investigated and Mr Jackson had 19 different aliases? I believe Dr Murray could not have known about all the medications Mr Jackson was taking. Mr. Jackson wasn't going to be honest because he knew he wouldn't get the Diprivan. I believe Mr Jackson was popping pills without Dr Murray knowing before the Diprivan treatments. The last treatment when he died, Mr Jackson popped one too many or something that didn't mix well.

in my opinion

There is nothing about him popping pills. In fact with the little information that has been gleamed it has been stated that MJ died from an overdose of Propovol and traces of Xanax were found in his blood. That doesn't equate to pill popping and even Murray is to have admitted that he gave MJ sedatives.

And we have no idea how far back LE has gone or what period of time the 19 aliases entails. It could have been throughout his addiction which he was known to have for many many years.

imo

[Roxxanne]

Not one, single member of the Jackson Family is supporting Jermaine in this?

Or are they scared to seem to be supporting him for fear of reprisals in hte Family?

JMO.... Jermaine is the one who immediately began making public statements that MJ's wishes should be followed to the letter of the will. Joe Jackson is the one who tried to totally discount everything MJ wanted to make the estate under his own control.

IMO

For some reason I don't trust Randy as well as Joe. I read, and I'm thinking it was TMZ, that the family was against all this going to court about the executives and that Randy wasn't one of them.
I don't know why I distrust Randy but I think it goes back to the 30th anniversary video when Randy had the spotlight for a minute and Michael came up and Randy kinda pushed him back! I know that's a stupid reason, but I've been suspicious of him.
My Sister said one day that with so many of them there has to be at least one that has Joe's way of thinking and I said I bet it's Randy!
I can see him and Joe behind the fight for Katherine to have some control.
If anyone knows anything to change my mind I'm open to it. Just don't know much about him and have formed an opinion.

[GentleBreeze]

I would think after twenty years of hard core addiction there would be far more than 19 doctors involved during that time span. imo

Thing is we dont know.

And we dont know all the doctors who used aliases and those who did not.

We will see.

imo

[retiredcop]

Anyone in a hospital going under anesthesia is monitored as to what medications are given to them. When you arrive at a hospital the morning of surgery, you have been told what medications you can take that morning before arrival. A doctor has already gone over your list of medications you are on and tells you which ones you can take and which ones you can't take. They rely on your having followed their directions. They do not run a tox test before surgery.

After you arrive, medications are only given to you from that point on they know about.

A doctor can only go by what you tell him and if you don't tell him the truth and something goes wrong, that is not the doctor's responsibility whether in the hospital or in a home setting.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

Anyone in a hospital going under anesthesia is monitored as to what medications are given to them. When you arrive at a hospital the morning of surgery, you have been told what medications you can take that morning before arrival. A doctor has already gone over your list of medications you are on and tells you which ones you can take and which ones you can't take. They rely on your having followed their directions. They do not run a tox test before surgery.

After you arrive, medications are only given to you from that point on they know about.

A doctor can only go by what you tell him and if you don't tell him the truth and something goes wrong, that is not the doctor's responsibility whether in the hospital or in a home setting.

in my opinion

You are assuming that MJ did not tell him. There is no evidence of that. Murray knows what is going to show up that is why he has admitted that he gave MJ sedatives and I bet Xanax is one that he said he gave.

Oh yes, this all falls on Murray. Imo MJ would not have died even if he was on sedatives but he would have died by being administered Propovol in a gross and negligent manner and not even monitoring him throughout the procedure.

Imo, some of the best evidence they have is Murray's statements. They are coming back to haunt him now.

imo

[retiredcop]

There is nothing about him popping pills. In fact with the little information that has been gleamed it has been stated that MJ died from an overdose of Propovol and traces of Xanax were found in his blood. That doesn't equate to pill popping and even Murray is to have admitted that he gave MJ sedatives.

And we have no idea how far back LE has gone or what period of time the 19 aliases entails. It could have been throughout his addiction which he was known to have for many many years.

imo

I don't think they are going back that far. They are probably staying pretty close around the day of death. I'd even go maybe 6 months if that.

We know nothing of the tox test and how many or what type of pills he took within the time frame before the Diprivan.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

You are assuming that MJ did not tell him. There is no evidence of that. Murray knows what is going to show up that is why he has admitted that he gave MJ sedatives and I bet Xanax is one that he said he gave.

Oh yes, this all falls on Murray. Imo MJ would not have died even if he was on sedatives but he would have died by being administered Propovol in a gross and negligent manner and not even monitoring him throughout the procedure.

Imo, some of the best evidence they have is Murray's statements. They are coming back to haunt him now.

imo

That is all speculation only. Even the doctor's statements are speculation. Even the monitoring or lack of monitoring is pure speculation at this point. The lack of equipment is speculation. Yes, he would have died if he had taken something the doctor didn't know about and it ended up being lethal when mixed with Diprivan.

As to whether the doctor's statements are coming back to haunt him now is pure speculation too.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

That is all speculation only. Even the doctor's statements are speculation. Even the monitoring or lack of monitoring is pure speculation at this point. The lack of equipment is speculation. Yes, he would have died if he had taken something the doctor didn't know about and it ended up being lethal when mixed with Diprivan.

As to whether the doctor's statements are coming back to haunt him now is pure speculation too.

in my opinion

I don't think it is speculation. If it were that simple and MJ had taken other drugs that Murray didn't know about and the combination killed him then they wouldn't be doing multiple searches on every place that Murray seems to have touched.

I think it is common logic that Murray is right in the cross-hairs of this investigation which leads me to believe this death is no accidental overdose.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I don't think they are going back that far. They are probably staying pretty close around the day of death. I'd even go maybe 6 months if that.

We know nothing of the tox test and how many or what type of pills he took within the time frame before the Diprivan.

in my opinion

We dont know how far back their investigation is leading them.

imo

[retiredcop]

We dont know how far back their investigation is leading them.

imo

I know one thing for sure and that is this is a death investigation. To go back years and years researching Mr Jackson's addiction when none of that had anything to do with him dying at this time is not going to happen.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I don't think it is speculation. If it were that simple and MJ had taken other drugs that Murray didn't know about and the combination killed him then they wouldn't be doing multiple searches on every place that Murray seems to have touched.

I think it is common logic that Murray is right in the cross-hairs of this investigation which leads me to believe this death is no accidental overdose.

imo

It could still be an accidental overdose. Tracing medications and doctors who write them takes a very long time. Diprivan is not a controlled substance. Other drugs found in his system may be controlled substances.

If this is so cut and dry, why isn't Dr Murray under arrest for something?

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I know one thing for sure and that is this is a death investigation. To go back years and years researching Mr Jackson's addiction when none of that had anything to do with him dying at this time is not going to happen.

in my opinion

There isn't just a death investigation going on by the Coroner's office. The DEA is also involved in their own investigation.

imo

[Emerald]

It could still be an accidental overdose. Tracing medications and doctors who write them takes a very long time. Diprivan is not a controlled substance. Other drugs found in his system may be controlled substances.

If this is so cut and dry, why isn't Dr Murray under arrest for something?

in my opinion


I agree, retiredcop. Also have wondered if Dr. Murray has made some sort of deal since his attorneys have been so public about his role and the drugs he provided.

[GentleBreeze]

It could still be an accidental overdose. Tracing medications and doctors who write them takes a very long time. Diprivan is not a controlled substance. Other drugs found in his system may be controlled substances.

If this is so cut and dry, why isn't Dr Murray under arrest for something?

in my opinion

Because this is no ordinary person that has died by the hands of Murray. They will take it nice and slow and thoroughly build their case. Each time they have to give a Judge more and more probable cause evidence in order to get all these additional search warrants and who knows they may not be through with him yet. They also may be building other charges besides homicide.

If it was an accidental overdose they would have put this case to rest a long time ago, imo.

[GentleBreeze]

Good afternoon all :)

MJ has been a known drug addict since 1993. According to the search warrant they also seized medical records from Dr. Metzger and Dr. Tradissi (his dentist). Both doctors treated him in the 90's so they did go back that far. We also know that Klein has treated him for years. Not sure who Dr. Adams is. This is more than just a death investigation as they are looking for doctors who prescribed and/or treated MJ with prescription drugs. JMO

Doctors names on search warrant.
Murray
Klein
Adams
Metzger
Tradissi
Slavit
Rosen
Nurse Lee


http://ktnv.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/jacksonwarrant.pdf

Thank you. It just makes sense they would go back as far as they could and try to retrace all of this.

For all we know they may bring some type of charges against some of the doctors plus Murray.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

isn't there a statute of limitations ?

I know there isn't for murder...but I hardly think someone that had been "treating" him in the 90's has any relevance at all to his death.

There are two investigations going on. One by the Coroner is to determine what killed MJ the other is the drug investigation which involves past behaviors of some physicians imo

It is according to what the charges are, I would think, and if it is State of Federal charges.

The search warrants show they are going a long way back so I do think it is a very good possibility that some of these other doctors may also face charges and the possible loss of their license.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I think this is posted on the burial thread....but I'll comment on it here as well. EDited to say...it's been posted on this thread...upthread^

I think it's VILE and DISCUSTING his mother hasn't had him buried yet. I find the situation APPAULING!

It doesn't bother me. I can understand how she feels comfort by being able to go be with her son when she gets very lonely and is missing him terribly.

MJ is not hurting anymore. His body was just a vessel while he was here on Earth, anyway. She will bury him when the time is right.

I imagine they are trying to buy or have already bought a much larger undisclosed burial plot for the Jackson family at Forest Lawn and as soon as it is ready then Michael will rest among his family members behind walls that are never seen by anyone family members.

It is good to know that Forest Lawn has such places and they are totally never seen or revealed to the public. He can rest in peace once he is laid there.

imo

[Cindylee]

It doesn't bother me. I can understand how she feels comfort by being able to go be with her son when she gets very lonely and is missing him terribly.

MJ is not hurting anymore. His body was just a vessel while he was here on Earth, anyway. She will bury him when the time is right.

I imagine they are trying to buy or have already bought a much larger undisclosed burial plot for the Jackson family at Forest Lawn and as soon as it is ready then Michael will rest among his family members behind walls that are never seen by anyone family members.

It is good to know that Forest Lawn has such places and they are totally never seen or revealed to the public. He can rest in peace once he is laid there.

imo

I wouldn't think it would take this long for Forest Lawn to find a spot.
Geez, another James Brown??? What, it took them 2 1/2 months to bury him. I think the Jacksons will have that record beat.

[daniel green]

Michael Jackson's Deep Freeze

Posted Aug 15th 2009 2:15AM by TMZ Staff

Michael JacksonMichael Jackson has not been buried, multiple family sources tell us. We're told he's above ground at Forest Lawn Hollywood Hills and is being kept in a freezer.

snipped

O M G. :sad::ohmy::scared:

[daniel green]

My point being...whatever drug prescriptions were found, I would bet MJ was taking them....with or without Murray's knowledge.

Of course so. What we do know is that Rx's were found in what, like 19 aliases? Including the chef's and Prince's and Omar.

[Roxxanne]

I wouldn't think it would take this long for Forest Lawn to find a spot.
Geez, another James Brown??? What, it took them 2 1/2 months to bury him. I think the Jacksons will have that record beat.

Maybe he really is buried and they're just saying these other things. Look at the trick they pulled after the memorial, did Nancy Grace ever get over the fact the all those helicopters lost the coffin, lol?

[daniel green]

I don't think they are going back that far. They are probably staying pretty close around the day of death. I'd even go maybe 6 months if that.

snipped

Agree. IF that. From the fact that the Rxs were found in the rented house, I would imagine it's in the time period since he went to live there.

Also, MJ was not talked into taking diprivan, for petes sakes. He was asking all over for it, even AFTER he got Dr M.

[daniel green]

Sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray was not living at Michael Jackson's home when the singer died.As we first reported, paramedics found Jackson in Dr. Murray's room. The doctor had administered Propofol to Jackson while Michael was laid out on the bed. When EMT workers arrived -- and subsequently when police came on scene -- there was no evidence that the doctor had been staying in the room. There was no luggage, no clothes of Dr. Murray's ... no signs he had been staying there. Authorities believe Dr. Murray generally showed up in the evenings to administer drugs and left during the day. We're told the doctor had administered Propofol to Jackson in the room numerous times. Essentially the bedroom became a home clinic for Jackson, with drugs -- including Propofol -- hidden in the closet area. As for where Dr. Murray was staying, law enforcement sources say they have evidence he was living in Santa Monica -- approximately eight miles from Jackson's Holmby Hills home. Interestingly, Nicole Alvarez -- the woman who bore Dr. Murray's 7th child -- lives in a Santa Monica apartment.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-house/

[daniel green]

The family isn't happy with J.J. because the concert may now be in jeopardy and stories are being written that the brood caused the concert to crumble. Bottom line -- Jermaine was out on his own (again) pitching his stuff and the family was out of the loop.

http://www.tmz.com/

How sad. They haven't even laid him to rest yet and they are fighting over money.

[daniel green]

Oh, and as per the link I posted last night upthread, Joe is back home living there.

[retiredcop]

There are two investigations going on. One by the Coroner is to determine what killed MJ the other is the drug investigation which involves past behaviors of some physicians imo

It is according to what the charges are, I would think, and if it is State of Federal charges.

The search warrants show they are going a long way back so I do think it is a very good possibility that some of these other doctors may also face charges and the possible loss of their license.

imo

There is only one investigation going on and that's the investigation into the death of Mr Jackson. The DEA is assisting LAPD in that investigation.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-house/

TMZ is lagging behind. Chef Kai already told us that he wasn't living there and would come in the evenings and then leave the next morning. That is when she would see him coming downstairs with the oxygen cannisters in his hands.

IIRC, she said he usually arrived around 9 or 9:30 pm

imo

[daniel green]

Hi GB

Also want to say this. MJ has been a drug addict for 14 years (1993) not 20 as I have seen those years referenced. He had major surgery on his scalp that year and is when he started taking demerol and DR was the one administering it at the time (or this is when he admitted it).


snipped



The hair catching fire was in 1984, right?

[GentleBreeze]

You keep repeating this although links that support otherwise have been provided. Do you have a link to support your claim? TIA

I would be interested in seeing that too.

A death investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation looking into the possibility of a manslaughter case.

imo

[daniel green]

There is only one investigation going on and that's the investigation into the death of Mr Jackson. The DEA is assisting LAPD in that investigation.

in my opinion

Exactly. There is but one investigation.

[daniel green]

You keep repeating this although links that support otherwise have been provided. Do you have a link to support your claim? TIA

Every single time the DEA has been there to assist--not on their own investigation.

[daniel green]

For authorities investigating Michael Jackson's death, more could end up meaning less. If the entertainer's autopsy report reveals other potent drugs besides the powerful anesthesia propofol, as has been widely reported, prosecutors will have a more difficult time building a manslaughter case against Jackson's private physician, experts say. In short: more drugs, potentially less criminal responsibility for Dr. Conrad Murray. "You have to show that the doctor knew about all of these other doctors prescribing these other drugs," says one Los Angeles deputy district attorney who prosecutes doctors. "It's a classic problem."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20298137,00.html

[GentleBreeze]

I know one thing for sure and that is this is a death investigation. To go back years and years researching Mr Jackson's addiction when none of that had anything to do with him dying at this time is not going to happen.

in my opinion

Then maybe you can explain why the search warrants themselves show that they are doing just that?:confused:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20298137,00.html

I don't see it as a problem at all.

If what they found at autopsy is included in the prescrition list that Murray supposedly gave the ER doctors then there will be no IFs about it. Or if they have found that Murray prescribed the drugs found.

From what we know now the only drug mentioned to have been found beside the Propovol was traces of Xanax and then supposedly Murray admitted that he gave MJ sedatives.

imo

[daniel green]

So are you too denying that doctors going way back are being investigated for writing prescriptions for an "addict"? :confused:

Oh, I doubt they are. I believe that the LAPD know that MJ is an addict from these other doc's scripts and the tox report and the condition of the body. Also, from the multiple drugs in the names of 19 aliases they found at the rented house.

My belief is that there is one investigation, into MJ's death, and the warrants and searches of Murray's house, office, warehouse and pharmacy have all been about that.

There was no real warrant to the nurse--she asked for a warrant had stated on the record that all the police took from her is her statement that MJ had begged her for diprivan,

[Roxxanne]

Do y'all not have to have a photo ID for prescriptions?

[Roxxanne]

Hi Roxanne -- I had done some research on this a few weeks ago. CA law follows the Federal law and ID nor signature are required for controlled substance prescriptions.

State laws vary - for an example in NYS we have to show a photo ID AND sign a log the pharmacist maintains -- and that includes the chain pharmacies as well such as Walgreens, CVS, etc. If the pharmacist "knows" you -- the photo ID may not be required but you still have to sign for it. You can also pick up and sign for other family prescriptions provided they reside at the same address as you do JMO

Hi Xenam.......Down South here in my town we have do it just like you described in NYS. Can't believe CA is so easy on that.

[Cindylee]

Do y'all not have to have a photo ID for prescriptions?
I never have. And I have picked up prescriptions for many other people.

[retiredcop]

I would be interested in seeing that too.

A death investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation looking into the possibility of a manslaughter case.

imo

How is it not the same?

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

We don't even know what medical equipment was in that room. There could have been all the equipment necessary for administering Diprivan.
After all, a doctor did administer it to Mr Jackson before and had all the equipment necessary.

in my opinion

Then why didn't the doctor use it? A little too late when he came back? IF this doctor inserted an iv line and fed this drug to MJ, then he has committed a crime. In the very least manslaughter. He was not trained to administer this drug.

Let me ask you this, do you think that a crime was committed in another well known death (Smith's) or do you believe the coroner?

[retiredcop]

Then why didn't the doctor use it? A little too late when he came back? IF this doctor inserted an iv line and fed this drug to MJ, then he has committed a crime. In the very least manslaughter. He was not trained to administer this drug.

Let me ask you this, do you think that a crime was committed in another well known death (Smith's) or do you believe the coroner?

Under CA law, what training is necessary to administer that drug? Mr Jackson could have died after the treatment had been completed, no?

I thought a crime was committed with the Anna Nicole Case for manslaughter, but the state of Florida doesn't seem to agree. Those three were arrested for drug violations in CA. The coroner's decision of accidental overdose remains the same. It has not been changed to homicide.

[Firehead11]

Under CA law, what training is necessary to administer that drug? Mr Jackson could have died after the treatment had been completed, no?

I thought a crime was committed with the Anna Nicole Case for manslaughter, but the state of Florida doesn't seem to agree. Those three were arrested for drug violations in CA. The coroner's decision of accidental overdose remains the same. It has not been changed to homicide.

I kind of figured you did. Kind of strange if you think that manslaughter was committed in that case but not in this one. Just baffles me but that is off topic. Apparently my opinion is the opposite on both of these deaths than yours.

[Roxxanne]

I kind of figured you did. Kind of strange if you think that manslaughter was committed in that case but not in this one. Just baffles me but that is off topic. Apparently my opinion is the opposite on both of these deaths than yours.

Whoa, that don't make a bit of sense!:confused: I'm with you Firehead, and off topic too so I'll leave it.

[retiredcop]

Oh, I doubt they are. I believe that the LAPD know that MJ is an addict from these other doc's scripts and the tox report and the condition of the body. Also, from the multiple drugs in the names of 19 aliases they found at the rented house.

My belief is that there is one investigation, into MJ's death, and the warrants and searches of Murray's house, office, warehouse and pharmacy have all been about that.

There was no real warrant to the nurse--she asked for a warrant had stated on the record that all the police took from her is her statement that MJ had begged her for diprivan,

I agree there is only one investigation and as far as I know LAPD is still saying they are doing a death investigation. I haven't heard them announce they are now doing a homicide investigation. The DEA is assisting LAPD because they have faster access to drug information dealing with pharmacies and computer access. I believe if there are any charges it will be state charges and not federal charges.

Besides the investigators would remain same either way. The reports would remain the same also. They would just do a supplement report changing it to a homicide.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I kind of figured you did. Kind of strange if you think that manslaughter was committed in that case but not in this one. Just baffles me but that is off topic. Apparently my opinion is the opposite on both of these deaths than yours.

Well for one thing all of the paperwork including the autopsy was out in that case and in this case we haven't seen the autopsy yet. I'm waiting on that to make a decision if this case is a manslaughter or not.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

I would be interested in seeing that too.

A death investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation looking into the possibility of a manslaughter case.

imo

There is but one investigation in this case. Dunno how a death investigation would ever be different than a criminal investigation.

[daniel green]

I never have. And I have picked up prescriptions for many other people.

Same here. And in various states.

[daniel green]

Under CA law, what training is necessary to administer that drug? snipped.

None.

There are no laws regarding the administration of diprovan.

[retiredcop]

Whoa, that don't make a bit of sense!:confused: I'm with you Firehead, and off topic too so I'll leave it.

On the Anna Nicole Case the autopsy was out. On this one it isn't. I'm waiting on that to see what my decision will be in this case and I suggest you do the same.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

You're Right;)

So, if according to MJ, that is when he became addicted and he was already in and out of treatment by the first allegation of molestation, then that surely is 25 yrs of addiction.

[Firehead11]

Well for one thing all of the paperwork including the autopsy was out in that case and in this case we haven't seen the autopsy yet. I'm waiting on that to make a decision if this case is a manslaughter or not.

in my opinion

Yes and the ruling was accidental overdose. There were no IV line hanging from her arm. That fact alone gives me the chills and convinces me of manslaughter. Big difference between the two. I am waiting for the tox report to be released. I want to know what drugs were in his system when he died.

[Roxxanne]

On the Anna Nicole Case the autopsy was out. On this one it isn't. I'm waiting on that to see what my decision will be in this case and I suggest you do the same.

in my opinion

I suggest that you do not suggest what I think!

[daniel green]

Why am I not surprised?

I wonder when Debbie Rowe will have her first visit?

1) Not at all surprised.

2) Oh, I would say never.

[retiredcop]

Yes and the ruling was accidental overdose. There were no IV line hanging from her arm. That fact alone gives me the chills and convinces me of manslaughter. Big difference between the two. I am waiting for the tox report to be released. I want to know what drugs were in his system when he died.

But in the Anna Nicole Case, 9 of the 11 drugs found in her system were in Sterns name and should not have been in her system at all. The one that pushed her over the edge to death was in Stern's name. It was a liquid and since she couldn't even make it to the bathroom on her own, I would think she needed a little help drinking from that bottle. There was no doctor present there at all. So why do you keep going off topic?

in my opinion

[Barbara fl.]

Whether Michael Jackson was a drug addict or not, Dr Murray had no business giving him a drug that should have been used ONLY with assistance and in a hospital setting....Dr. Murray did neither....He should be charged with murder....He murdered a man for money....whether the man who hired him was the murdered or not...The fact remains that Dr. Murray committed a crime of murder.....It's time that these Doctor's be help accountable for what a dollar will make them do....


A license to cure is not a license to kill....The drug itself should NOT have been administered.....

[crazymama]

hi, been trying to keep up.
The police would probably love to search 9-10 years
back on MJ's script use and abuse and the doctors involved. The drs could have been prescribing to other people, stars, in their abuse too. It could be a massive bust, if some are continuing to this day.
It's like 7 degrees of separation doctor style.

[daniel green]

snippedHe murdered a man for money....snipped....

That is an outrageous allegation.

[ScoobyDoo]

I agree there is only one investigation and as far as I know LAPD is still saying they are doing a death investigation. I haven't heard them announce they are now doing a homicide investigation. The DEA is assisting LAPD because they have faster access to drug information dealing with pharmacies and computer access. I believe if there are any charges it will be state charges and not federal charges.

Besides the investigators would remain same either way. The reports would remain the same also. They would just do a supplement report changing it to a homicide.

in my opinion


All the search warrants indicate they are looking for evidence of a homicide. I'd call that a homicide investigation.

imo...of course.

[who_is_it]

"Michael Jacksonhas not been buried, multiple family sources tell us. We're told he's above ground at Forest Lawn Hollywood Hills and is being kept in a freezer.

We're told Katherine has frequently visited the temporary resting place.

As for where the body is eventually going ... no decision yet. We're told Jermaine is the lone family member who wants Neverland as Michael's final resting place. The rest of the family is appalled by Jermaine's wish, because M.J. hated Neverland after the molestation trial and wanted nothing to do with it.

Increasingly, Jermaine is becoming estranged from the rest of the Jackson brood."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/michael-jackson-body-buried-forest-lawn/

[daniel green]

Folks there is a huge difference between medical malpractice and a crime.

[daniel green]

All the search warrants indicate they are looking for evidence of a homicide. I'd call that a homicide investigation.

imo...of course.

Nope. Manslaughter. And Rxing to an addict.

[retiredcop]

All the search warrants indicate they are looking for evidence of a homicide. I'd call that a homicide investigation.

imo...of course.

I think you should call LAPD and tell them to officially change their investigation to a homicide if that will make you feel better.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

"Michael Jacksonhas not been buried, multiple family sources tell us. We're told he's above ground at Forest Lawn Hollywood Hills and is being kept in a freezer.

We're told Katherine has frequently visited the temporary resting place.

As for where the body is eventually going ... no decision yet. We're told Jermaine is the lone family member who wants Neverland as Michael's final resting place. The rest of the family is appalled by Jermaine's wish, because M.J. hated Neverland after the molestation trial and wanted nothing to do with it.

Increasingly, Jermaine is becoming estranged from the rest of the Jackson brood."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/15/michael-jackson-body-buried-forest-lawn/

Sooner or later someone is going to snap a picture of the freezer opened up and Mr Jackson, whatever is left of him, and it will be sold to the highest bidder.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

How is it not the same?

in my opinion

Imo, it is not the same. A coroner is one that completes a death investigation where they determine:

Who the person was.
Where the person lived.
DOD
What caused them to die.
Manner of death.

The Coroner's death investigation does not involve finding out who may have killed the deceased person, if they were killed.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/11/content_11860186.htm

Los Angeles Coroner's Office completes probe into Jackson's death


www.chinaview.cn 2009-08-11 08:03:54 Print

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 10 (Xinhua) -- The Los Angeles County Coroner's Office announced on Monday that it has completed its investigation into pop star Michael Jackson's death.

But the office said it will not release details at the behest of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) which is continuing its probe.

"The investigation was thorough and comprehensive," the office said in a statement. "The Los Angeles Police Department continues to investigate the events and related circumstances surrounding the death of Mr. Jackson."

"To maintain the integrity of its ongoing investigation, the Los Angeles Police Department has requested a continuance of the existing 'security hold' on all Department of Coroner documents related to the Jackson investigation," the statement said.

"Further, the (LAPD) has requested that the autopsy findings regarding the cause and manner of death remain confidential," it added.

Meanwhile, the LAPD said in a statement that extending the confidentiality of the autopsy findings "will help maintain the integrity of the investigation and allow investigators from LAPD'sRobbery Homicide Division, as well as our partner law enforcement agencies, to continue their investigation."




imo

[daniel green]

snipped IF this doctor inserted an iv line and fed this drug to MJ, then he has committed a crime.

What crime would that be, pray tell. :confused:

There is no law against giving/adminestering dirprivan.

[daniel green]

IMO Finding the connection between all of the doctors ...and MJ and Murray is what's taking so long. If they can not prove that Murray knew...they have no manslaughter case. IMO

Marcia Clark a week or so ago (transcript posted somewhere here) said that if there is a mix of drugs in MJ's system, it will be difficult to charge with manslaughter. Or if several docs had written and given MJ drugs.

Say, for instance, when MJ went to Klein's office and Klein said he was dancing for the other patients.

[GentleBreeze]

Sooner or later someone is going to snap a picture of the freezer opened up and Mr Jackson, whatever is left of him, and it will be sold to the highest bidder.

in my opinion

Whatever is left of him?:rolleyes:

There has been bodies exhumed that had been buried for over 30 years and they looked just like they did when placed in the casket and they darn sure weren't being kept in a refrigerated chamber either.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Marcia Clark a week or so ago (transcript posted somewhere here) said that if there is a mix of drugs in MJ's system, it will be difficult to charge with manslaughter. Or if several docs had written and given MJ drugs.

Say, for instance, when MJ went to Klein's office and Klein said he was dancing for the other patients.

Wasnt that 4 days before he passed away.

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

What crime would that be, pray tell. :confused:

There is no law against giving/adminestering dirprivan.


There is when the administration is done so recklessly that it results in death.

[ScoobyDoo]

How many times is this gonna be posted?


It's DISGUSTING!!!! ( Katherine & Jermaine)


As many times as you keep posting it.

[daniel green]

There is when the administration is done so recklessly that it results in death.

But there is a lot of confusion here about what is medical protocol (you must have this or that in the house with it) and what is a crime.

There is nothing criminal about the administration of diprivan in a home.

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=LaundryQueen;13368913

Don't you remember Dr. Perper's frantic calls to the courtroom?[/QUOTE]

Yes, ANSs embalming was delayed wasn't it?

imo

[GentleBreeze]

But there is a lot of confusion here about what is medical protocol (you must have this or that in the house with it) and what is a crime.

There is nothing criminal about the administration of diprivan in a home.

I don't think he will get into legal trouble by giving the Propovol in a home setting because there really is no law that I am aware of stating it cant be used in a home. However if MJ was overdosed on Propovol.........then Murray is in deep do.

I think the security guards are witnesses and maybe other staff. Imo. they saw Murray in other places in MJs home that morning when he told police he was administering the Propovol, which means he is guilty of gross negligence by not monitoring his patient throughout the entire time, especially if the Coroner has decided that Propovol is what killed MJ.

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

But there is a lot of confusion here about what is medical protocol (you must have this or that in the house with it) and what is a crime.

There is nothing criminal about the administration of diprivan in a home.


The final circumstance is due to extreme medical negligence that involves a gross and wanton disregard for the well-being of the patient and is the most controversial in the medical community. The law defines reckless endangerment as the conscious disregard of a known substantial likelihood of injury to the patient. Criminal neglect typically is defined as the failure to provide timely, safe, adequate, and appropriate services, treatment, and/or care to a patient. In instances of extreme medical negligence, a homicide manner of death is appropriate because the fatality is due to the criminal acts (or inactions) of another. It also furthers one of the major goals of the medicolegal death investigation system, which is to safeguard the public health.


http://journals.lww.com/amjforensicmedicine/Abstract/2009/03000/Medical_Homicide_and_Extreme_Negligence.5.aspx

[crazymama]

If MJ was a diprivan addict, and it seems he was,
by asking doctors get and give him the drug,
then a doctor who prescribes and administers diprivan to MJ, an addict, is guilty of prescribing to an addict. There is plenty of other drugs to give
him a nights sleep.
my opinions

[who_is_it]

Michael Jackson's glittery glove up for auction

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jNoNvLoG6A29tKgToiRcBI39WFgQD9A20CF80

http://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2009/music-icons/michael-jackson-02.html

I'm not familiar with auctions; could someone explain to me the following?

Below the jacket is written "estimate US $ 8,000 - 10,000". Is this the starting price? -- Imo it couldn't be that they estimate the jacket in the end will go for a bid of US $ 8,000 - 10,000 "only"...

(I've read a shirt worn by Michael went to the highest bidder for US $ 40,000.)

[who_is_it]

Weird text below the jacket auction:

"(...) Jackson often signed '1998' as early as the 1980s. Some speculate that he did so believing that it would be the year of his death. Jackson donated this jacket to Tony Martell, to benefit the T.J. Martell Foundation."

http://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2009/music-icons/michael-jackson-02.html

[who_is_it]

Want to add to my post above the auction of Michael Jackson items:

The auction will take place in New York on November 21st. One can also register to bid by phone!

[GentleBreeze]

Michael Jackson's glittery glove up for auction

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jNoNvLoG6A29tKgToiRcBI39WFgQD9A20CF80

http://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2009/music-icons/michael-jackson-02.html

I'm not familiar with auctions; could someone explain to me the following?

Below the jacket is written "estimate US $ 8,000 - 10,000". Is this the starting price? -- Imo it couldn't be that they estimate the jacket in the end will go for a bid of US $ 8,000 - 10,000 "only"...

(I've read a shirt worn by Michael went to the highest bidder for US $ 40,000.)

They always make the expected price lower that way when it goes way up there it is more of a big deal.

I have read that MJ has many ardent fans from all over the world and some of them are extremely wealthy. I think the jacket will go for much more than $10,000.

imo

[Firehead11]

But in the Anna Nicole Case, 9 of the 11 drugs found in her system were in Sterns name and should not have been in her system at all. The one that pushed her over the edge to death was in Stern's name. It was a liquid and since she couldn't even make it to the bathroom on her own, I would think she needed a little help drinking from that bottle. There was no doctor present there at all. So why do you keep going off topic?

in my opinion

Thats not true and you should know that. Although the drugs were in his name, even in the charges it does list that all the medicines prescribed to Stern were intended for Anna.

By the way, I stopped going off topic but you continued. I will not sit here and let others be misled by the statement you posted. If Coldwater wants me to link to my fact then I will do so. The liquid in the glass was never identified to the public. Or maybe Taz gave her the last swig of it. Who knows.

[Firehead11]

What crime would that be, pray tell. :confused:

There is no law against giving/adminestering dirprivan.

Well then I think you better call LAPD and let them know that they are wasting the little money CA has investigating something that is not criminal. After the first call, then call the DEA and inform them also.

And yes, I am being sarcastic. He committed a crime and should be charged.

[Firehead11]

Wasnt that 4 days before he passed away.

imo

Yeah, Marcia Clark is one person I believe.....:rolleyes:

[daniel green]

Well then I think you better call LAPD and let them know that they are wasting the little money CA has investigating something that is not criminal. After the first call, then call the DEA and inform them also.

And yes, I am being sarcastic. He committed a crime and should be charged.

Please do post the law governing the administration of diprivan.

TIA

[who_is_it]

They always make the expected price lower that way when it goes way up there it is more of a big deal.

I have read that MJ has many ardent fans from all over the world and some of them are extremely wealthy. I think the jacket will go for much more than $10,000.

imo

Thank you for your reply.

That's what I already thought; couldn't be that the jacket in the end goes for "just" US $ 10,000. Moreover I could imagine not only fans but also other rich people would buy it as an asset.

I've just browsed the catalogue with all the items of the April 2009 auction which was called off. Prices were like US $ 100 for a shirt. :-)

Unfortunately there wasn't any auction in 2005. You or me could have bought all nice items and keep them forever. :D

[GentleBreeze]

Thank you for your reply.

That's what I already thought; couldn't be that the jacket in the end goes for "just" US $ 10,000. Moreover I could imagine not only fans but also other rich people would buy it as an asset.

I've just browsed the catalogue with all the items of the April 2009 auction which was called off. Prices were like US $ 100 for a shirt. :-)

Unfortunately there wasn't any auction in 2005. You or me could have bought all nice items and keep them forever. :D

I sure wished I had purchased some over the years but I would be like I am about my Elvis memorabilia and would never part with any of it.:smile:

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

Please do post the law governing the administration of diprivan.

TIA



Propofol depresses breathing and the heart rate and lowers blood pressure so it’s supposed to be administered by an anesthesia professional in a medical setting.

Braun said doctors are permitted to administer a drug for uses not specified on the drug label as long as they don’t use it in a reckless manner. But the responsibility for the use falls on the doctor.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:YkmdIw44kxUJ:www.pbpulse.com/gossip/celeb-stalker/deaths/michael-jackson-deaths-celeb-stalker-celeb/2009/07/23/in-jackson-case-what-constitutes-manslaughter/+doctors+reckless+administration+of+drug&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&ie=UTF-8


You would have to look to case law regarding the reckless administration of a drug which results in the death of the patient.

[daniel green]

Propofol depresses breathing and the heart rate and lowers blood pressure so it’s supposed to be administered by an anesthesia professional in a medical setting.

snipped.

That is medical protocol, not law.

[GentleBreeze]

I did have quite a few collectibles ...I listed them on e-bay...made a tidy sum too! :)

I sure wished I did because now all of my grandchildren are wanting anything and everything MJ. It would have been nice to give them some collectibles. They aren't that aware of Elvis that much but I was actually surprised that they knew all about MJs songs and his dance moves.

imo

[daniel green]

My kids, 17 and 14, had no idea who he was.

[who_is_it]

My kids, 17 and 14, had no idea who he was.

I don't believe this.

I've never talked to any teens at this age who didn't know Michael Jackson. I'm talking about the time BEFORE his death.

[daniel green]

Well, it is the truth. Why on earth would they??? He has not had any music out or videos since what, like over 10 yrs ago?

His last MTV thing was in 1995, which is when my daughter--aged 14--was born.

I remember my son, 17, would get a kick out of the Weird Al takes on the MJ songs (he was born in 91) but when MJ died and it was all over the news he had no idea who MJ was. I asked if he couldn't remember Werid Al, and that sparked some memore of those, but not of MJ at all.

[ScoobyDoo]

That is medical protocol, not law.


The problem is that you snipped the relevant part. :rolleyes:


Braun said doctors are permitted to administer a drug for uses not specified on the drug label as long as they don’t use it in a reckless manner. But the responsibility for the use falls on the doctor.

[ScoobyDoo]

Well, it is the truth. Why on earth would they??? He has not had any music out or videos since what, like over 10 yrs ago?

His last MTV thing was in 1995, which is when my daughter--aged 14--was born.

I remember my son, 17, would get a kick out of the Weird Al takes on the MJ songs (he was born in 91) but when MJ died and it was all over the news he had no idea who MJ was. I asked if he couldn't remember Werid Al, and that sparked some memore of those, but not of MJ at all.

Its a shame that they have missed out experiencing the talent of one of the greatest entertainers of all time.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't believe this.

I've never talked to any teens at this age who didn't know Michael Jackson. I'm talking about the time BEFORE his death.

Even our precious 2.5 year old granddaughter came over the other day and was doing the moonwalk for us.........well sorta ...:biggrin: lol

imo

[daniel green]

Its a shame that they have missed out experiencing the talent of one of the greatest entertainers of all time.

Not really. Their Ipods are chockful of the greatest like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, etc. But, you know, they are like kids their ages, with interest and knowledge of bands from during their lifetimes.

I cannot imagine any kids under 20 having much independent knowledge of MJ. Most stations didn't play his songs, even, since his arrest and that was a ton of yrs ago.

My older 3, in their 30's, obviously knew him and we went to an MJ concert way back in the day. But that has been a long, long time and though they remember him from them, they really have not listened to any MJ music in the past 10-15 yrs.

It's like my not having any real independent knowledge of Elvis music. Just a tad before my time.

[daniel green]

The problem is that you snipped the relevant part. :rolleyes:


Braun said doctors are permitted to administer a drug for uses not specified on the drug label as long as they don’t use it in a reckless manner. But the responsibility for the use falls on the doctor.

Uh huh, medical protocol. There is nothing in either CA, LV or federal laws about diprivan administration.

[Cindylee]

Whatever is left of him?:rolleyes:

There has been bodies exhumed that had been buried for over 30 years and they looked just like they did when placed in the casket and they darn sure weren't being kept in a refrigerated chamber either.

imo

They looked just like they did when placed in the casket???? I am not buying that one.

[Cindylee]

Thats not true and you should know that. Although the drugs were in his name, even in the charges it does list that all the medicines prescribed to Stern were intended for Anna.

By the way, I stopped going off topic but you continued. I will not sit here and let others be misled by the statement you posted. If Coldwater wants me to link to my fact then I will do so. The liquid in the glass was never identified to the public. Or maybe Taz gave her the last swig of it. Who knows.

We will have to wait for that trial, but it could set some precedents for all of these doctors, and friends of people who abuse drugs.

[GentleBreeze]

They looked just like they did when placed in the casket???? I am not buying that one.

I didn't say you had to buy it CL.:confused:

But yes even years later the body was in extremely excellent shape and they were interned in the ground not in a refrigerated chamber.

imo

[daniel green]

Even our precious 2.5 year old granddaughter came over the other day and was doing the moonwalk for us.........well sorta ...:biggrin: lol

imo

Did she learn it watching the news coverage following MJ's death? Because we, too, have a precious grand-baby that age and I just cannot fathom how on earth she would have seen or learned it.

[MagicGarden]

snipped.
My older 3, in their 30's, obviously knew him and we went to an MJ concert way back in the day. But that has been a long, long time and though they remember him from them, they really have not listened to any MJ music in the past 10-15 yrs.

It's like my not having any real independent knowledge of Elvis music. Just a tad before my time.

You kids are in their 30s and Elvis was a "tad" before your time?

[daniel green]

You kids are in their 30s and Elvis was a "tad" before your time?

Yeah. I am 57 and lived in the Caribbean till I was 9. The first musicians I ever listened to were the Beatles. By the time I was actually aware of Elvis, he was older and heavy and just doing his Vegas shows, so not my thing. As I said, no independent knowledge of Elvis. But, gosh, what an impertinent question.

[Cindylee]

I didn't say you had to buy it CL.:confused:

But yes even years later the body was in extremely excellent shape and they were interned in the ground not in a refrigerated chamber.

imo

I would really like a link if you have one, to a person looking the same as they did when they were put in the coffin, after 30 years. Unless that person wasn't put in the coffin right away. :confused:

[daniel green]

My son is 11...he knows who MJ is as well as Elvis. snipped.

I, obviously, knew who Elvis was. But, given that Elvis' first record came out 2 yrs before I was born, I was never a fan nor listened to his music.

I can imagine if you have the videos, then it makes sense that your son likes MJ.

My 17 and 14 yr olds, frankly, did not know anything about MJ. His music was not on tv or radio for yrs.

For instance, my youngest kids love Santana, as I do, but they know him from his most recent stuff of a few yrs ago, and I have loved him since forever.

[Cindylee]

Not to get into the match.com thing again...but young Elvis, in his movies, was the most handsome man I have ever seen in my life! He was pretty darn sexy. :smile:

[daniel green]

I really had no choice in the matter as my mother loves Elvis...and Tom Jones. I know all of the songs. lol

Ha!:laugh: My mother watched the Tom Jones show every week!

[Cindylee]

I really had no choice in the matter as my mother loves Elvis...and Tom Jones. I know all of the songs. lol

My mom liked Engelbert. :scared:

[who_is_it]

Well, it is the truth. Why on earth would they??? He has not had any music out or videos since what, like over 10 yrs ago?

His last MTV thing was in 1995, which is when my daughter--aged 14--was born.

I remember my son, 17, would get a kick out of the Weird Al takes on the MJ songs (he was born in 91) but when MJ died and it was all over the news he had no idea who MJ was. I asked if he couldn't remember Werid Al, and that sparked some memore of those, but not of MJ at all.

I know several about 17 years old teens who know to do the "thriller" dance (studied the dance steps).

Btw, soon there will be a new Michael Jackson video which is called "doom project".

I'm also not Elvis generation... but always knew who Elvis was... and though I don't know any titles of his songs I recognise his voice.

[Cindylee]

I found this too....this I believe;) I'm always skepdical!

http://skepdic.com/incorrupt.html

"Incorruptibles, which claims the body has been "preserved intact since 1879 without embalming or other artificial means." Actually, the face and hands that look so real in the photo are made out of wax. The wax was added because the face was "emaciated" when the body was first exhumed (Nickell 1993: 92). Perhaps St. Bernadette's corpse should be moved to Madame Tussauds. "

Thanks. :laugh:

[daniel green]

My mom liked Engelbert. :scared:

What a blast from the past! :laugh: I've been married twice and my first mother in law used to talk about how Tom Jones was physical but Engelbert was about love.

[Poochie Pie]

The problem is that you snipped the relevant part. :rolleyes:


Braun said doctors are permitted to administer a drug for uses not specified on the drug label as long as they don’t use it in a reckless manner. But the responsibility for the use falls on the doctor. It appears Scooby, since MJ is dead, that the Doctor used it very poorly..!! I would not want to be in Dr. Murray's shoes right now... IMO

Poochie

[ScoobyDoo]

Uh huh, medical protocol. There is nothing in either CA, LV or federal laws about diprivan administration.


Thats why you would have to look at case law, as I stated earlier. Its not illegal to own a hand gun, but if you use that gun recklessly and kill someone, it then becomes a crime.

[GentleBreeze]

Did she learn it watching the news coverage following MJ's death? Because we, too, have a precious grand-baby that age and I just cannot fathom how on earth she would have seen or learned it.

Her mom taught her with his music playing.

imo

[who_is_it]

Michael gave a phone interview to ABC at his 50th birthday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPn4Vx58Gi0

He was looking forward to the future, gave hints on career plans... but most important of all: He sounds TOTALLY sober, coherent and healthy.

[GentleBreeze]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Recent Autopsy preformed by Dr. Cyril H. Wecht


"There was Sulava's body perfectly preserved.

Her raven hair was pulled back revealing a smooth and creamy complexion. Even her eye makeup was still intact.

Sulava still had the face of a beautiful woman who looked like she had only fallen asleep in her turquoise suit.

"The body is in a remarkable state of preservation for someone who has been interred for 40 years," Wecht said.

"This is rare," he said. "Certainly the embalming was done quite competently and diligently."


In contrast, when Wecht conducted 30 autopsies on victims of Hurricane Katrina several years ago, he said he could not have differentiated the organs if they were placed together on a tray because "they were all so completely decomposed."

That was not the case with Sulava's remains. Even organs that are known to decompose quickly were still intact, specifically, the brain and pancreas, according to Wecht.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/specialreports/buriedlegacy/s_577277.html

I don't think it is as rare as some think.

I just googled exhumed bodies and many of them were in excellent shape. Even those who died in the 1920s or before.

Never realized there were so many sites that pertains to exhumed bodies.:ohmy:

imo

[ScoobyDoo]

snipped

Being able to speak isn't a sign someone isn't a drug addict;)


Passing a 4 hour physical might be one sign though.

[GentleBreeze]

I know several about 17 years old teens who know to do the "thriller" dance (studied the dance steps).

Btw, soon there will be a new Michael Jackson video which is called "doom project".

I'm also not Elvis generation... but always knew who Elvis was... and though I don't know any titles of his songs I recognize his voice.

OMG! You can tell in so many of his videos he always had a young age fan base even younger children and thousands upon thousands would line up and do his dance moves.

That was seen in all the many tributes paid to him all over the world when he died. It was amazing no matter what their ages were there they were dancing every move trying to do it just like he did.:biggrin:

imo

[Cindylee]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Recent Autopsy preformed by Dr. Cyril H. Wecht


"There was Sulava's body perfectly preserved.

Her raven hair was pulled back revealing a smooth and creamy complexion. Even her eye makeup was still intact.

Sulava still had the face of a beautiful woman who looked like she had only fallen asleep in her turquoise suit.

"The body is in a remarkable state of preservation for someone who has been interred for 40 years," Wecht said.

"This is rare," he said. "Certainly the embalming was done quite competently and diligently."


In contrast, when Wecht conducted 30 autopsies on victims of Hurricane Katrina several years ago, he said he could not have differentiated the organs if they were placed together on a tray because "they were all so completely decomposed."

That was not the case with Sulava's remains. Even organs that are known to decompose quickly were still intact, specifically, the brain and pancreas, according to Wecht.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/specialreports/buriedlegacy/s_577277.html

OK so it is possible. I give. I don't think MJ's body will do as well. IMO

[flipflop]

Well, it is the truth. Why on earth would they??? He has not had any music out or videos since what, like over 10 yrs ago?

His last MTV thing was in 1995, which is when my daughter--aged 14--was born.

I remember my son, 17, would get a kick out of the Weird Al takes on the MJ songs (he was born in 91) but when MJ died and it was all over the news he had no idea who MJ was. I asked if he couldn't remember Werid Al, and that sparked some memore of those, but not of MJ at all.

I don't mean this to be rude but that is just...wow. My nieces and nephews, aged 15, 17, 10, and two 8 years old, all have known who he is and his songs long before he died. I asked them if they knew who he was about 3 years ago and they all said...duh, yeah.

[Unperson1984]

Every single time the DEA has been there to assist--not on their own investigation.

And the search warrants have been State issued warrants issued at the request of LAPD, who has been at the execution of every search warrant.

[GentleBreeze]

I know right!?! Was an interesting search to say the least!

But I did learn that it's very rare.

Did you see some of those pictures? GASP! I don't know how pathologists do it!

I saw some that were just remarkable. Heck I have seen alive people look worse.:biggrin:

One was of a young child and I think she has been dead for many many years but she is absolutely beautiful.

And I saw the photos of Evita and she was exhumed several times and she was still such a beautiful woman.

Simply amazing.

imo

[daniel green]

OMG! You can tell in so many of his videos he always had a young age fan base even younger children and thousands upon thousands would line up and do his dance moves.
snipped

His last video was in 1995. That is a long time ago.

The fact that he had children in his videos, however, does not mean young fan base.

[daniel green]

I don't mean this to be rude but that is just...wow. My nieces and nephews, aged 15, 17, 10, and two 8 years old, all have known who he is and his songs long before he died. I asked them if they knew who he was about 3 years ago and they all said...duh, yeah.

Good for them.

Personally, and I work with children, I don't know any kids who are fans.

[daniel green]

And the search warrants have been State issued warrants issued at the request of LAPD, who has been at the execution of every search warrant.

Indeed! I have missed your cogent posts--good to see you!

[who_is_it]

I am a little shocked by your statement. Did you really expect him to be incoherant 24/7?

I have a heroin adicted cousin that sounds coherant...he even held a job....for YEARS!

Being able to speak isn't a sign someone isn't a drug addict;)

Some people here expressed their concerns he was doing drugs over years. During this interview in 2008 he seemed to be very much down to earth, focused on the future, caring for his children.

@ coherence: Well, if you say this about your cousin I have to believe you but he might be an exception. Imo in many cases one could not only see but also "hear" frequent drug abuse: by the sound of the voice but also by confusing statements etc.

[ScoobyDoo]

Only speaking for myself...I don't particularly appreciate my son dancing like MJ...Which he's been doing for a few years now. My kid loves to dance! It annoys me when he grabs his crotch. I think it's inappropriate.


Your post is funny.

[daniel green]

we shall see.

There was much to do about that "physical exam" as I recall.

And the Ear Nose and Throat doc who performed that physical is being investigated.

[ScoobyDoo]

Good for them.

Personally, and I work with children, I don't know any kids who are fans.


You don't necessarily have to be a fan, to know who he is.

[GentleBreeze]

His last video was in 1995. That is a long time ago.

The fact that he had children in his videos, however, does not mean young fan base.

That has nothing to do with the countless tributes made all over the world in June and July 2009. Thousands poured out in the streets in countries all over the world and they were all ages from the very young to older and boy did they know his dance moves. They were fantastic no matter which country it was in.

I thought Branca said his last tour was in 2001.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Your post is funny.

:biggrin:I would have thought a Mama would be the "crotch patrol.":wink:

[flipflop]

You don't necessarily have to be a fan, to know who he is.

Exactly. I didn't grow up during the Elvis days but I certainly knew who he was.

[Unperson1984]

Indeed! I have missed your cogent posts--good to see you!

I've been so busy and in my "spare" time I'm trying to empty my Mom's house.

:sad:

[flipflop]

Explosive Paramedic Report: Jackson Was Dead For Hours, Conrad Insisted on Hospital Visit

A new report from the paramedics called to Michael Jackson's home on the day of his death indicates the singer was dead at least an hour before help arrived.

This implicates the embattled Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson's personal physician, as he insisted the pop king had a pulse when paramedics arrived--and that a hospital visit could've possibly saved his life.

First discovered by UK newspaper News of the World, the form in question is called an F-902M, one that medics are required to fill out after attending to a "fatality."

The form in Jackson's case has several important details: Jackson had no pulse, attempts failed to start his heart (aka flatline), and a condition called Lividity, where all the blood flows to the bottom of the body before heart failure.

A close friend of Jackson', Dr. Steven Hoefflin, spoke to the paper with the permission of Michael's mother to confirm the forms findings.

"He had no pulse and was not breathing. They gave him an electro-cardiogram but he was flatlined. They say he even had lividity, which meant the blood had sunk to the back, indicating his heart had stopped a couple of hours earlier," Hoefflin

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/08/explosive-paramedic-report-jackson-was-dead-hours-conrad-insisted-hospital-visit

:ohmy: That is a long time before a 911 call was made. Wow.

[daniel green]

I've been so busy and in my "spare" time I'm trying to empty my Mom's house.

:sad:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

Take care, Unperson. We miss you.

[Firehead11]

Most children know about the music the parents play first, at least in my case. My mom loved Jim Reeves. I listen to him while growing up. God Bless Ed Sullivan. Many our age heard about new music ! The Beatles, Rolling Stones and others.

Oh and my 10 year old Granddaughter, knew who MJ was before his death and my daughter listens to country.

[GentleBreeze]

And that would make that 9:22 visit to the storage room fits right in with the time line. The 911 call was made at 12:10 or thereabouts. JMO

That makes sense to me, X.

I am even beginning to wonder now if Murray may have even left the premises for awhile. Doesn't his baby's mama live about 8 minutes from Michael's place?

imo

[who_is_it]

<snipped>
I don't know any kids that don't know MJ -- guess it just depends on what type of music the kids are in to but he definitely has a huge young fan base. I doubt that the 50 concerts that sold out in "minutes" were all old fans either. :shrug:

The young boy that won "Britain's Got Talent" also sang MJ's songs and he was only 12. MJ saw him and invited him to appear in his then upcoming concert. He also performed at the Memorial. There is not a young person in the music industry either that does not know who MJ was. JMO

Still Michael for most young people in the industry is the most talented entertainer ever and their role model. Rihanna, for example, added his "Wanna be started something" lines "Ma ma se ma ma sa ma ma coo sa" to "Please don't stop the music". I don't like most of her songs but this one is soooooooooooo great and still belongs to my favorite dance songs.

[retiredcop]

Imo, it is not the same. A coroner is one that completes a death investigation where they determine:

Who the person was.
Where the person lived.
DOD
What caused them to die.
Manner of death.

The Coroner's death investigation does not involve finding out who may have killed the deceased person, if they were killed.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/11/content_11860186.htm

Los Angeles Coroner's Office completes probe into Jackson's death


www.chinaview.cn 2009-08-11 08:03:54 Print

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 10 (Xinhua) -- The Los Angeles County Coroner's Office announced on Monday that it has completed its investigation into pop star Michael Jackson's death.

But the office said it will not release details at the behest of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) which is continuing its probe.

"The investigation was thorough and comprehensive," the office said in a statement. "The Los Angeles Police Department continues to investigate the events and related circumstances surrounding the death of Mr. Jackson."

"To maintain the integrity of its ongoing investigation, the Los Angeles Police Department has requested a continuance of the existing 'security hold' on all Department of Coroner documents related to the Jackson investigation," the statement said.

"Further, the (LAPD) has requested that the autopsy findings regarding the cause and manner of death remain confidential," it added.

Meanwhile, the LAPD said in a statement that extending the confidentiality of the autopsy findings "will help maintain the integrity of the investigation and allow investigators from LAPD'sRobbery Homicide Division, as well as our partner law enforcement agencies, to continue their investigation."




imo

The coroner determines the cause and manner of death. It's still all one investigation. The coroner and the police work together.

I don't know what you're trying to prove. LAPD is the lead in this investigation since it happened in their jurisdiction. All other agencies are assisting them.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Wouldn't it be federal if it actually did involve wire fraud? The filling of prescriptions under aliases in other states?

If there are no state statutes to cover that maybe. I would be very surprised to see any federal charges in this case. There were no federal charges in the Anna Nicole case. Each state handles their own charges. If prescriptions were filed in another state that state would investigate and bring their own charges.

The DEA assisted LAPD in the Anna Nicole case also.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

The coroner determines the cause and manner of death. It's still all one investigation. The coroner and the police work together.

I don't know what you're trying to prove. LAPD is the lead in this investigation since it happened in their jurisdiction. All other agencies are assisting them.

in my opinion

The death investigation is a separate investigation altogether. Just like Dr. Perper did his own death investigation to determine COD and MOD for ANS.

The LAPD and other agencies are continuing on with THEIR investigation even though the Coroner's office already knows the COD and MOD by completing their death investigation.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

And the reason LAPD is still doing their own investigation imo it shows that they already know the MOD and COD supplied to them by the Coroner's office and it is not from natural causes, suicide or an accidental overdose.

imo

[Firehead11]

And the reason LAPD is still doing their own investigation imo it shows that they already know the MOD and COD supplied to them by the Coroner's office and it is not from natural causes, suicide or an accidental overdose.

imo

Do we know if a DA is involved in any investigation?

[retiredcop]

The death investigation is a separate investigation altogether. Just like Dr. Perper did his own death investigation to determine COD and MOD for ANS.

The LAPD and other agencies are continuing on with THEIR investigation even though the Coroner's office already knows the COD and MOD by completing their death investigation.

imo

It's all one case. What about that don't you understand? The medical examiner handles the autopsy and the results. The police do the investigation into who killed the person. LAPD has not changed this to a homicide investigation yet. They are still calling it a death investigation. Do you actually think the police should do the autopsy?Do you actually think the medical examiner should go out on the street and do the investigation? IT'S ALL ONE CASE ON ONE DEAD BODY.

Again, what in the world are you trying to prove?

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

Do we know if a DA is involved in any investigation?

I think they are trying to keep this case as quiet as it can be.

I have no doubt that a DA in LA is very aware of every step that has been taken and has been made fully aware of all the details.

We wont hear from them until they make a move, imo.

imo

[Firehead11]

It's all one case. What about that don't you understand? The medical examiner handles the autopsy and the results. The police do the investigation into who killed the person. LAPD has not changed this to a homicide investigation yet. They are still calling it a death investigation. Do you actually think the police should do the autopsy?Do you actually think the medical examiner should go out on the street and do the investigation? IT'S ALL ONE CASE ON ONE DEAD BODY.

Again, what in the world are you trying to prove?

in my opinion

LAPD are looking into any criminal acts that may have contibuted to the death of Michael Jackson.

[Firehead11]

I think they are trying to keep this case as quiet as it can be.

I have no doubt that a DA in LA is very aware of every step that has been taken and has been made fully aware of all the details.

We wont hear from them until they make a move, imo.

imo

I agree. I would think that they have to be.

[retiredcop]

LAPD are looking into any criminal acts that may have contibuted to the death of Michael Jackson.

I agree they are looking for something. As to whether they find enough for manslaughter is up in the air. LAPD is probably running this by a DA who is saying they need more. They have to have enough evidence to arrest and take this to trial. Even if the medical examiner rules this a homicide, LAPD may never have enough evidence to arrest. The case would then just stay open. They may have enough evidence against some doctors on prescription charges, but not a manslaughter.

The medical examiner can rule

homicide
accidental
suicide
undetermined
natural

I think the autopsy report is being held for the police to investigate what they have. The medical examiner and the police can get together for the ruling. If the medical examiner has ruled accidental and the police find evidence it is a homicide, it can be changed should their evidence match the autopsy. This is something Perper refused to do because he was an a$$ and star struck.


in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Sometimes it's like talking to a wall. :biggrin:
IMO

I know.:laugh:

[GentleBreeze]

It's all one case. What about that don't you understand? The medical examiner handles the autopsy and the results. The police do the investigation into who killed the person. LAPD has not changed this to a homicide investigation yet. They are still calling it a death investigation. Do you actually think the police should do the autopsy?Do you actually think the medical examiner should go out on the street and do the investigation? IT'S ALL ONE CASE ON ONE DEAD BODY.

Again, what in the world are you trying to prove?

in my opinion

No, it really is not the same.

Now there ARE death scene investigators or investigators that investigate the events surrounding the death but MEs or Coroners are the ones who conduct a death investigation.

WHO ACTUALLY PERFORMS DEATH INVESTIGATIONS?

http://books.google.com/books?id=9Jb0HgcWYaAC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=who++performs+a+death+investigation&source=bl&ots=9U9HTDgN2q&sig=C8X6yoXJKXiyP8TlPS-gWuoD9Kw&hl=en&ei=4imISvTPN6WltgemidjnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[GentleBreeze]

I agree. I would think that they have to be.

I am sure they have learned a lot by certain cases they have had in the past.:smile:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

LAPD are looking into any criminall acts that may have contributed to the death of Michael Jackson.

Absolutely, It is not hard to figure out why they are continuing to gather evidence. I am sure their past bad luck history spurns them on to have this case wrapped up tight and loaded with evidence.

They KNOW the COD/MOD. If the death was from natural cases, undetermined, suicide or an accidental overdose they wouldn't be raiding offices,home, storage units or a pharmacy and finding links to Propovol and Murray imo.:smile:

Each time they go back to the Judge asking for another search warrant they have to show the Judge they have uncovered something else to make them believe certain things will be found there and the SW necessary.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

It's all one case. What about that don't you understand? The medical examiner handles the autopsy and the results. The police do the investigation into who killed the person. LAPD has not changed this to a homicide investigation yet. They are still calling it a death investigation. Do you actually think the police should do the autopsy?Do you actually think the medical examiner should go out on the street and do the investigation? IT'S ALL ONE CASE ON ONE DEAD BODY.

Again, what in the world are you trying to prove?

in my opinion

Where was it said that LAPD has come out and called this a death investigation? The only one I have heard is the Coroner when he always says "we are investigating the death of Mr. Jackson.":confused:

[retiredcop]

No, it really is not the same.

Now there ARE death scene investigators or investigators that investigate the events surrounding the death but MEs or Coroners are the ones who conduct a death investigation.

WHO ACTUALLY PERFORMS DEATH INVESTIGATIONS?

http://books.google.com/books?id=9Jb0HgcWYaAC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=who++performs+a+death+investigation&source=bl&ots=9U9HTDgN2q&sig=C8X6yoXJKXiyP8TlPS-gWuoD9Kw&hl=en&ei=4imISvTPN6WltgemidjnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Wow, just wow. Of course MEs do death investigations to determine cause and manner of death. The police take it from there depending on his ruling and their evidence they have uncovered.

What are you trying to prove? If the ME rules a homicide it is still a death investigation.

The ME and the police are on the same side.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I actually think the ME has ruled this accidental and the police has asked him to hold his results until they investigate further in order to see if they have enough for manslaughter. The ME, police, and DA will meet to determine if the ME's will change his ruling to homicide which covers manslaughter. That is if the police and DA think they have enough and can convince the ME to change it.

They all work together on death investigations. Again the LAPD is still calling this a death investigation.

It doesn't matter what the ruling is for prescription charges against the doctors. It can be ruled accidental for that.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Where was it said that LAPD has come out and called this a death investigation? The only one I have heard is the Coroner when he always says "we are investigating the death of Mr. Jackson.":confused:

Where has it come out the LAPD is investigating the homicide of Mr Jackson?:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Ms Breeze,

I hope you realize a homicide has to involve a death and a death could involve a homicide. Just saying.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

snipped from Ms Breeze post:
"we are investigating the death of Mr. Jackson."


Who do you think the ME means by "we".:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

I agree they are looking for something. As to whether they find enough for manslaughter is up in the air. LAPD is probably running this by a DA who is saying they need more. They have to have enough evidence to arrest and take this to trial. Even if the medical examiner rules this a homicide, LAPD may never have enough evidence to arrest. The case would then just stay open. They may have enough evidence against some doctors on prescription charges, but not a manslaughter.

The medical examiner can rule

homicide
accidental
suicide
undetermined
natural

I think the autopsy report is being held for the police to investigate what they have. The medical examiner and the police can get together for the ruling. If the medical examiner has ruled accidental and the police find evidence it is a homicide, it can be changed should their evidence match the autopsy. This is something Perper refused to do because he was an a$$ and star struck.


in my opinion

Frankly, I think they are trying to dot their i's and cross their t's.

There you go bringing the Smith case up again. Dr. Perper was not an a$$ nor star struck however, I happen to agree with his ruling.

Were there enablers in her saga? Yes. Just like there were enablers here also. But ultimately, it will be the doctors in both deaths that will be found liable to some extent. I just happen to think Murray is in deeper dodo than Dr E .

[GentleBreeze]

Wow, just wow. Of course MEs do death investigations to determine cause and manner of death. The police take it from there depending on his ruling and their evidence they have uncovered.

What are you trying to prove? If the ME rules a homicide it is still a death investigation.

The ME and the police are on the same side.:biggrin:

in my opinion

That makes no sense, imo. LAPD have been doing their own parallel investigating way back in June so they didn't wait until August 2009 to get the MEs cause and manner of death when investigating the events surrounding the death. And no one can sign off on a death investigation except the Coroner or ME.

Really? So are you saying that MEs are biased and give their opinions that only supports the State just because they happened to work for the same government? I never knew State MEs were on one side or the other. I thought they were neutral.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

snipped from Ms Breeze post:
"we are investigating the death of Mr. Jackson."


Who do you think the ME means by "we".:rolleyes:

in my opinion

Are you now saying that in Los Angles there is only one person working for the Coroner's office?:rolleyes:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Where has it come out the LAPD is investigating the homicide of Mr Jackson?:rolleyes:

in my opinion

In Search Warrants. Last I looked manslaughter is a homicide.:rolleyes:

imo

[retiredcop]

Frankly, I think they are trying to dot their i's and cross their t's.

There you go bringing the Smith case up again. Dr. Perper was not an a$$ nor star struck however, I happen to agree with his ruling.

Were there enablers in her saga? Yes. Just like there were enablers here also. But ultimately, it will be the doctors in both deaths that will be found liable to some extent. I just happen to think Murray is in deeper dodo than Dr E .

I didn't bring it up again. Ms Breeze did. I've never have brought it up. Others have.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

That makes no sense, imo. LAPD have been doing their own parallel investigating way back in June so they didn't wait until August 2009 to get the MEs cause and manner of death when investigating the events surrounding the death. And no one can sign off on a death investigation except the Coroner or ME.

Really? So are you saying that MEs are biased and give their opinions that only supports the State just because they happened to work for the same government? I never knew State MEs were on one side or the other. I thought they were neutral.

imo

Again, you are wrong. You are just being obtuse or baiting, one of the two.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I don't know why this has to be so difficult. The investigation of MJ's death is part and parcel of the same thing by the LAPD and the Los Angeles County Coroner.

"LOS ANGELES - Coroner's investigators have completed their probe into the death of Michael Jackson but are not releasing the results yet, authorities said Monday.

The Los Angeles County coroner's office said police investigators requested that facts about what killed Jackson remain under a security hold while detectives investigate the events leading up to the pop icon's death.

Neither the coroner's office nor the Police Department would indicate when the results might be made public."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090810/entertainment/ca_michael_jackson_autopsy

Good luck to you. I tried. :biggrin:

in my opinion

[Emerald]

Where has it come out the LAPD is investigating the homicide of Mr Jackson?:rolleyes:

in my opinion

Retiredcop, you're very patient. I gave up a long time ago on that line of posting.

hammer

[retiredcop]

Retiredcop, you're very patient. I gave up a long time ago on that line of posting.

hammer

My patience is coming to a screeching halt.:laugh:

[ScoobyDoo]

Where has it come out the LAPD is investigating the homicide of Mr Jackson?:rolleyes:

in my opinion



LAPD Treating Jackson Death as Homicide
Posted Jul 15th 2009 3:00AM by TMZ Staff

Multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson's death as a homicide, and they are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-homicide-death-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-propofol/

[Firehead11]

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm

It also differs from murder in this, that there can be no accessaries before the fact, there having been no time for premeditation. Manslaughter is voluntary, when it happens upon a sudden heat; or involuntary, when it takes place in the commission of some unlawful act.

The provocation which reduces the killing from murder to manslaughter is an answer to the presumption of malice which the law raises in every case of homicide; it is therefore no answer when express malice is proved and to be available the provocation must have been reasonable and recent, for no words or slight provocation will be sufficient, and if the party has had time to cool, malice will be inferred.

[retiredcop]

LAPD Treating Jackson Death as Homicide
Posted Jul 15th 2009 3:00AM by TMZ Staff

Multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson's death as a homicide, and they are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-homicide-death-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-propofol/

Has LAPD actually come out and officially announced this is now a homicide investigation. No? I didn't think so. Next.

Has the autopsy results been released and the cause of death is a homicide. No? I didn't think so. Next.

in my opinion

[who_is_it]

This was on NBC Dateline about Michael's last interview which he did with Ebony magazine (includes a recording of the interview).

At 2:53 the recording starts. Michael said: "(...) who wants mortality? I mean, everybody wants immortality. You want what you create to live. (...) like Michelangelo said: "I know the creator will go but his work survives, that is why to escape death, I attempt to bind my soul to work."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TiG3PpXUXs

[ScoobyDoo]

Has LAPD actually come out and officially announced this is now a homicide investigation. No? I didn't think so. Next.

Has the autopsy results been released and the cause of death is a homicide. No? I didn't think so. Next.

in my opinion


Where does it say the LAPD is required to officially announce anything?
NOWHERE

NEXT.

Have the autopsy results been released and the cause of death is anything other than homicide? NO

NEXT

[retiredcop]

IMO Manslaughter is considered a homicide by the coroner

It falls under homicide in the state statute. The coroner only has five rulings to chose from.

homicide
natural
accidental
undetermined
suicide

[retiredcop]

Where does it say the LAPD is required to officially announce anything?
NOWHERE

NEXT.

Have the autopsy results been released and the cause of death is anything other than homicide? NO

NEXT

They don't have to announce anything. The point is they haven't said anything about what they are investigating except a death, now have they? They sure haven't said they are investigating a homicide so you put up a link of speculation only.:tonguewag:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

hummm It seems by your list...

homicide--Likely
natural----NO-nothing found at initial autopsy as per statement..Tox Results being awaited on..
Accidental---NO unless he started his own IV and administed his own Diprivan
Undertermined---No..seems some sort of Drug levels came up,thus further investigations
Suicide----no...MJ couldnt administer lethal dose of Diprivan himself

So why do you need to question just what LE is doing?

LMS

Who said I was questioning what they are doing? I think the ruling will be accidental.

in my opinion

[who_is_it]

It does appear from this interview and photo op..that MJ had a good understanding of his place in this world..had no illusions that he would live forever physically, but did understand that his work would live on forever...That is really a good and normal insight to have as an artist..so he had no illusions he would or could live forever..nor into "Old Age"...It's hard to recall just how many performing artists actually lived to a ripe old age...given lifestyles and all..Personally, I never did get all caught up with Entertainers..and although realize famous personalities..I only realize their "True" contributions when they were gone..So, in a sense..Mj said it all in his interview with Ebony..

LMS

I think he was more realistic and down to earth with his thoughts than most people believed him to be.

[retiredcop]

Maybe my error..but didnt you say something along the line..NOT A Homicide?..Nothing has been said!...however, you never addressed WHAT LE was doing by behaviors you really should understand..unless you dont understand death investigations when foul play is afoot??

LMS

My post #602

[ScoobyDoo]

Who said I was questioning what they are doing? I think the ruling will be accidental.

in my opinion


You are allowed to think as you see fit, the question is will you be able to acknowledge your mistake in thinking, when the LAPD announces the arrest of Dr. Murray for the homicide of Michael Jackson?

[retiredcop]

You are allowed to think as you see fit, the question is will you be able to acknowledge your mistake in thinking, when the LAPD announces the arrest of Dr. Murray for the homicide of Michael Jackson?

LOL just as much as you will be able to acknowledge your mistake in thinking when it is announced the death is ruled accidental.

in my opinion

[ScoobyDoo]

LOL just as much as you will be able to acknowledge your mistake in thinking when it is announced the death is ruled accidental.

in my opinion


If you knew me better, you would realize that I am NEVER wrong.
:tonguewag:

[Unperson1984]

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm

It also differs from murder in this, that there can be no accessaries before the fact, there having been no time for premeditation. Manslaughter is voluntary, when it happens upon a sudden heat; or involuntary, when it takes place in the commission of some unlawful act.

The provocation which reduces the killing from murder to manslaughter is an answer to the presumption of malice which the law raises in every case of homicide; it is therefore no answer when express malice is proved and to be available the provocation must have been reasonable and recent, for no words or slight provocation will be sufficient, and if the party has had time to cool, malice will be inferred.


CA Penal Code 192

(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection.

[Firehead11]

Who said I was questioning what they are doing? I think the ruling will be accidental.

in my opinion

accidental? Oh your honor, It was an accident. I had to make some important phone calls to make. You see, I started the propofol drip and then had to go call home. When I got back ... well you have your choice of which story tobelieve
1. Mr. Jackson was in cardiac arrest and I performed CPR on him. I even called his son into the room to witness my actions.
or
2.Mr Jackson was dead but I did try to revive him with CPR. We had the heat up high because Mr. Jackson claimed he was cold.

I have posted enough on this subject. Even if they come out with anything other than what you believe already, you will not believe what might become fact.

Have a good day.

[GentleBreeze]

"Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder).
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea), or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide), where murder requires either the intent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent) to kill, a state of mind called malice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_(legal_term)), or malice aforethought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought), which may involve an unintentional killing but with a willful disregard for life.
Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter."

Which IMO manslaughter is not homicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

Hi Eagle,

Yes, manslaughter is a homicide.

imo

[Unperson1984]

Hi Eagle,

Yes, manslaughter is a homicide.

imo

You're correct.

[GentleBreeze]

accidental? Oh your honor, It was an accident. I had to make some important phone calls to make. You see, I started the propofol drip and then had to go call home. When I got back ... well you have your choice of which story to believe
1. Mr. Jackson was in cardiac arrest and I performed CPR on him. I even called his son into the room to witness my actions.
or
2.Mr Jackson was dead but I did try to revive him with CPR. We had the heat up high because Mr. Jackson claimed he was cold.

I have posted enough on this subject. Even if they come out with anything other than what you believe already, you will not believe what might become fact.

Have a good day.

I read a very interesting article today concerning signs of lividity. I will try to find the link again.

But it said signs of lividity can make a difference in determining when to do CPR and when not to do it.

I don't know that the other article is truthful about MJ already having lividity when seen by the EMTs but if he did surely Murray as a licensed doctor would have checked for those signs to give him some type of estimate how long his patient had been dead before he tried CPR.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

You're correct.

Thank you.

I hope you have had the chance to rest some today, Uni.

imo

[retiredcop]

Hi Eagle,

Yes, manslaughter is a homicide.

imo

I don't remember a single, solitary sole on this blog dispute that. You were arguing something else entirely.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I read a very interesting article today concerning signs of lividity. I will try to find the link again.

But it said signs of lividity can make a difference in determining when to do CPR and when not to do it.

I don't know that the other article is truthful about MJ already having lividity when seen by the EMTs but if he did surely Murray as a licensed doctor would have checked for those signs to give him some type of estimate how long his patient had been dead before he tried CPR.

imo

More speculation? Does it ever end?

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

And in reading that post..you referred to..you are assuming Diprivan is in no way part of the equation..so once again..LE will investigate to ends of the earth when something doesnt fit...and I am looking foreward to Dr. Murray being held accountable for the death of another thru incompetence and ignoring care and diligence when performing a "Healthcare" treatment..for what???Money???for seeking exposure for care of a famous person??Who knows??..who cares?..He did what he did, and his actions or lack there of caused a death to a very famous person...So much for his "Chance of a Lifetime"!!

LMS

No I am not assuming Diprivan was in no way a part of the equation.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

No I am not assuming Diprivan was in no way a part of the equation.

in my opinion

Certainly MJ's death was an accident on Murray's part, the question is did his actions rise to the level of being performed "without due caution and circumspection."

I'd say that's a wobbler, it could go either way. LE will have to weigh MJ's request and consent to the administration of the drug in a home setting, and Murray's professional obligation as a licensed physician.