Husband of wrong way driver says she didn't drive drunk

[henry]

#4 If you look at the road, the general direction is east, although you're correct, initially it takes her west to go east.

#5 At the edge of the black square she turns south at the end of the bridge & almost immediately turns north as she enters the Saw Mill River Pkwy.

NSEW on a roadway refers to the general direction of the road, it doesn't mean the road continually goes in that direction. If it did we'd have completely perfect geometric grids for roads, which of course we don't. Rivers, mountains and cities tend to get in the way of that type of planning.

yup . . . north/south roads are pretty straight here - following the river . . . saw mill goes northeast . . . with the hudson river, there's no straight east/west roads because of the hills/terrain north of the bridge.

[daniel green]

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/attorney-schuler-child-welfare-probe-appropriate-1.1358957

[Short_kid]

that fact that not all the alcohol had digested yet means she drank after she left the park would it not? maybe at the rest area or the McDonald she stopped at along the way

the employees of McDonalds have not reported she was drunk that I have heard yet, no one at the rest area either that I have heard

did they check the McD cups to see if she added vodka to them?

It would suggest that she was drinking after she left the park, just from the reports of when they left the camp ground to when they ended up going the wrong way there is a serious time issue there. It doesn't take THAT long to get from where they were to the Taconic where they crashed. I think she probably stopped off at some point. We may not ever know what "set her off' but something did. The husband claiming the reports were wrong/ that she didn't smoke weed/ was not drunk was laughable.

[R~O~S]

I don't know, if she had time to stop at McD and a rest area then I would then she had the time - as far as what set her off, maybe she always drank like that, she just thought she would make it home before it set in, maybe she had to stay sober all weekend and new if she did not start then she would not be sober by morning to get to work? the mind of a alcoholic doesn't work like a sane persons, they do not need to be "set off" imo

The first reports of people seeing her driving erratically were shortly after the stop at McDonald's.


The McDonald's is only 11 miles out from the campsite, they put the witnesses to erratic driving shortly after that & less than halfway through the trip.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08052009/photos/the_path_to_destruction.jpg


The campsite manager stated in one of the articles that she was "sober as a judge" when she left the camp. That doesn't mean she was, lots of hard core alcoholics appear sober when the're not, but she didn't appear to be impaired at that time.

[Debb]

I think all the denials by the family are very sad. I wonder if anyone has checked with the liquor stores in the area of the couples' home? My ex-boyfriend would travel to 2-3 different liquor stores so the quantity he puchased would not be so noticeable. He would even ask me to buy it sometimes. He would travel to multiple grocery stores to purchase beer too. He would drink a 12 pack of beer plus a fifth of vodka everyday.... sometimes more vodka. It's hard to hide that from the people you are purchasing it from.

One thing about my ex though. He NEVER drove after drinking. I can understand being so compelled to drink that you continue to do it, but I can't understand feeling compelled to drive while drinking. It makes me furious.

[Ninja108]

I'm sorry but he is in denial mode big time. There's no way she could have lasted as long as she did on the road unless she was a chronic alcoholic. And contrary to what his lawyer is saying, I'm sure her levels were checked twice before it was announced she was drunk.
Because I'm sure everyone that saw the scene, responded to it investigated it, or heard about it, wanted to believe there was a medical explanation for her driving the wrong way for so long. Anything but the most obvious reason...that she was plastered out of her mind.
We want to believe it's something else because we just can't believe a mother would choose booze over her kids. If nothing else the show Intervention puts that myth to rest.
I have no sympathy for her. She chose to get drunk and not only killed four beautiful children, but three other innocent men whom death's have been largely overlooked in my option. The only regretable thing, she isn't around to face the consquences of her actions.

[courtsinsession]

Just addressing the diabetic comment. When someone has diabetes a low sugar level "attack" can occur suddenly and without warning even though they ARE monitoring their blood sugar so NO it is not anywhere near comparable to someone driving drunk. JMO

I believe i read somewhere that she had GESTATIONAL DIABETES which means it would occur with her pregnancies; so right now the rumor that she was actually diabetic, for me, has not been substantiated.

[Details]

I believe i read somewhere that she had GESTATIONAL DIABETES which means it would occur with her pregnancies; so right now the rumor that she was actually diabetic, for me, has not been substantiated.Not substantiated - however, a very high percentage (50%!) of those who get gestational diabetes develop full blown diabetes within 5 years of pregnancy. So - if you've had gestational diabetes, it's a fair thing to say that it's not all that unlikely you have diabetes. Your doctor will treat you that way - test you more often, etc.

Seems obvious this was not a case of diabetes - but so far as the question of if she had it, having gest diabetes makes that a lot more likely.

[Scampi]

The report that she threw her cell phone out the window, right after speaking with her brother really has me confused. Why in the world would she do that?

If I am Mrs. Hance, I would be livid about this and would get to the bottom of it or die trying. :angry:

[Nellie]

that fact that not all the alcohol had digested yet means she drank after she left the park would it not? maybe at the rest area or the McDonald she stopped at along the way

the employees of McDonalds have not reported she was drunk that I have heard yet, no one at the rest area either that I have heard

did they check the McD cups to see if she added vodka to them?

Ok, think of this.
If this woman was an alcoholic, she could consume quite a bit probably before she's noticebly drunk by a stranger. I don't know that the McDonald's employees would really know if she had been drinking. Not all alcoholics are falling all over the place. They are functioning in everyday life....at their jobs, in their neighborhoods, at the grocery, etc. It does not mean they haven't been drinking.

I don't even necessarily think "something set her off" as some do.
I think she was a drunk that got over even her own limit.
I do not believe she was a non-drinker. That bottle was too important to be sure to pack and take along back and forth all summer....wouldn't be that important to a non-drinker, believe me.

[R~O~S]

The report that she threw her cell phone out the window, right after speaking with her brother really has me confused. Why in the world would she do that?

If I am Mrs. Hance, I would be livid about this and would get to the bottom of it or die trying. :angry:

If you were ticked off because the niece made the initial call, and because he was telling you to stay put & calling you back if you hung up, you'd ditch the phone.

Unfortunately, the niece is never going to tell us and I'd be surprised if the surviving son remembers the events leading up to the crash. The first reports said there was serious head trauma. Even with a concussion you don't usually remember the actual trauma, there's at least initially short term memory loss. He may regain the memory with time though.


Regarding the gestational diabetes:

http://www.diabetes.org/gestational-diabetes.jsp

Gestational diabetes usually goes away after pregnancy. But once you've had gestational diabetes, your chances are 2 in 3 that it will return in future pregnancies. In a few women, however, pregnancy uncovers type 1 or type 2 diabetes. It is hard to tell whether these women have gestational diabetes or have just started showing their diabetes during pregnancy. These women will need to continue diabetes treatment after pregnancy.

Many women who have gestational diabetes go on to develop type 2 diabetes years later. There seems to be a link between the tendency to have gestational diabetes and type 2 diabetes. Gestational diabetes and type 2 diabetes both involve insulin resistance. Certain basic lifestyle changes may help prevent diabetes after gestational diabetes.

Diane was not the very rare woman who's type 2 just started showing symptoms at pregnancy, the baby was 2 years old. She would have had a hard diagnosis and been undergoing treatment for diabetes if she were.

& yes, her doctor would have had a regular routine of testing her as a precaution.

She simply did not have diabetes and the ME has already ruled out that possibility as a factor in the crash. I just don't understand why it's still being tossed about.

[daniel green]

Diane Schuler's July 26 wrong-way accident - killing herself, her daughter, three nieces and three men in a sport utility vehicle, brought a horrific reminder that drunken driving remains a killer on the roads, despite gains made by law enforcement in apprehending people who get behind the wheel of a car after drinking a few too many.
Westchester County police, who patrol four parkways - though not the Taconic - are on course to set a record with the number of drunken-driving arrests this year, passing last year's 588, department spokesman Kieran O'Leary said.

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009908100322

[Scampi]

I think the gestational diabetes info is just smoke and mirrors being thrown about by a desperate and slick defense attorney. I doubt very much if that means she has diabetes now, and if it can be substantiated by schuler's personal physician.

The question is why the heck was she downing the vodka so early that morning? What events precipatated that kind of response? I think somebody in that family knows and isn't speaking.

[daniel green]

Aurora said passing motorists were already carrying children from Schuler's now-burning vehicle as he approached the minivan. Aurora helped pull Schuler, the 36-year-old West Babylon mother, from the vehicle, but he said he could tell she was already dead. He went over to where some of the children had been laid out on the grass. "We heard people just screaming: 'Who knows CPR? Does anybody know CPR?' " Aurora said recently. He went over to one of the young crash victims - he thinks it was Schuler's 7-year-old niece, Alyson Hance - and said he felt a really faint pulse. Aurora, 34, and other motorists performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation on the girl. Mohegan Lake volunteer firefighter Donna Gorbecki and another passer-by tried to revive her with mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, Aurora said. The firefighter said one of the images that still haunts him are the little girl's eyes. "She had these pretty blue eyes, just looking, just helpless blue eyes," Aurora said. The girl was put onto a backboard and into an ambulance. Alyson Hance was pronounced dead at Phelps Memorial Hospital Center. Her sisters, 5-year-old Kate Hance and 8-year-old Emma Hance, died at the scene.

http://lohud.com/article/20090810/NEWS02/908100324/-1/SPORTS

[daniel green]

If I were Mrs Hance, my life would be over, forever. How does anyone recoup from this?

That's exactly how I feel about it, ABC. I don't know how one can live through that pain and loss.

[Details]

...
Regarding the gestational diabetes:

http://www.diabetes.org/gestational-diabetes.jsp


Diane was not the very rare woman who's type 2 just started showing symptoms at pregnancy, the baby was 2 years old. She would have had a hard diagnosis and been undergoing treatment for diabetes if she were.

& yes, her doctor would have had a regular routine of testing her as a precaution.

She simply did not have diabetes and the ME has already ruled out that possibility as a factor in the crash. I just don't understand why it's still being tossed about.The reason it's being discussed is because it's been suggested as an excuse by the family. So the degree of validity, whether or not it is even possible is a reasonable point - even though the labs are clear.

50% odds of getting diabetes - not that hard to think that she could have it - and I'm not aware of any statement from her doctor if she were diagnosed or not.

It's not a factor, from every bit of evidence out there - but in terms of whether the family is seeking an excuse they wish to believe, or deliberately spreading a falsehood, whether or not she has diabetes is a relevant question.

[daniel green]

The husband of Diane Schuler, who authorities said was driving while drunk and high, must have known that she was a heavy drinker, and he is either not being truthful or is in denial about her alcohol use, the family of two victims said Monday. "He's in denial. Somewhere along the line you have to know somebody can drink like that," Roseann Guzzo said in a "Today" show interview. She and her sister Margie Nicotina spoke to NBC's Matt Lauer. "My sister and I can't drink like that," Guzzo said.

Guzzo and Nicotina lost their brother, Guy Bastardi, 49, and their father, Michael Bastardi, 81, on July 26 when Diane Schuler drove the wrong way for 1.7 miles on the Taconic in Westchester County before crashing head-on into the Bastardi's sport utility vehicle. The collision killed Schuler, 36, of West Babylon; three nieces and her daughter; and three Yonkers men in the SUV - the Bastardis and their friend Daniel Longo, 74. Schuler's son, Bryan, 5, survived. Authorities say Diane Schuler was drunk and high on marijuana at the time of the crash.

Nicotina and Guzzo expressed anger and grief - and skepticism - at the public statements of Daniel Schuler, the driver's husband, who said she did not have a drinking problem. The husband blamed a medical condition for the accident. And he said in a news conference last week that his "heart is clear" with the knowledge that his wife was not a drunken driver. "I don't believe everything we hear from the Schuler family. You know where he says his heart is clear? My heart is broken at night," Guzzo said. "I lost my father and my brother, my family is devastated by this." "This didn't have to happen," Guzzo said. "She had a choice and she made a choice. And this is what happens when you drink and you do drugs and you get behind the wheel of a car."

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/kin-of-men-in-taconic-crash-doubt-driver-s-husband-1.1359554

[Pomme]

In my opinion, whether she did or did not have diabetes has no relationship to the fact that she had undigested alcohol in her stomach and THC in her system. A diabetic attack/incipient diabetic coma does not lead one to wildly swig vodka and suck in marijuana smoke.

I want to know why she did those 2 things. To talk about diabetes seems irrelevant at this point. We know why she was driving like a psychotic - drinking and smoking pot. We need to find out why she was doing so to such an extent when she had children in her vehicle.

[R~O~S]

The reason it's being discussed is because it's been suggested as an excuse by the family. So the degree of validity, whether or not it is even possible is a reasonable point - even though the labs are clear.

50% odds of getting diabetes - not that hard to think that she could have it - and I'm not aware of any statement from her doctor if she were diagnosed or not.

It's not a factor, from every bit of evidence out there - but in terms of whether the family is seeking an excuse they wish to believe, or deliberately spreading a falsehood, whether or not she has diabetes is a relevant question.


Relevant perhaps, reasonable, I really don't think so.

If she had diabetes they'd have known because her doctor would have continued monitoring her after the birth.

If she'd been diagnosed type I or II, they wouldn't have tossed out "gestational".

The lawyer and Daniel certainly tossed out every possible & improbable excuse, but if Diane had type I or II we'd know, and it's simply not possible for gestational to be a factor two years after birth.

However, even if she did, the ME has already ruled that out as a potential cause. There was nothing in her glucose levels to indicate she was having a blood sugar issue be it high or low. Nor could a diabetic with those issues continue driving for over two hours of onset. She was driving erratically 1/3 of the way through the trip, that's 2-3 hours prior to the crash.

So, I just don't understand the focus. It's just not valid, IMO.

OTOH, 6 gms of undigested hard liquor in your stomach is pretty relevant.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Not substantiated - however, a very high percentage (50%!) of those who get gestational diabetes develop full blown diabetes within 5 years of pregnancy. So - if you've had gestational diabetes, it's a fair thing to say that it's not all that unlikely you have diabetes. Your doctor will treat you that way - test you more often, etc.

Seems obvious this was not a case of diabetes - but so far as the question of if she had it, having gest diabetes makes that a lot more likely.

Didn't she have a normal glucose result?

[Details]

I had gestational diabetes. They keep an eye on you - but nothing so frequent as you seem to think - every year or so - longer if you don't go in to the doctor too often - it's just some extra testing on your annual physical. The doctor has said nothing about if she was diagnosed or not, so we don't know if she had it or not.

Right after - she didn't have it, or else they'd have known then. But beyond that - it's all about how many times you care to have the doctor prick and poke you. I don't know about you - but being in reasonable health, I have gone multiple years without visiting the doctor, not bothering with the annual physical. The pressure of time, taking care of kids, job - it's just not a priority - even with gest diabetes, and a real chance of diabetes - there's nothing a doctor's visit can do about that.

It's not relevant to the accident. It is relevant to who the father is. If he's telling the truth about the diabetes - he can be a grieving father who is choosing to believe an excuse. If she didn't have it - that would indicate he's deliberately lying. The two options show very different character for the father.

[Lady_Jean_La]

If you were ticked off because the niece made the initial call, and because he was telling you to stay put & calling you back if you hung up, you'd ditch the phone.

Unfortunately, the niece is never going to tell us and I'd be surprised if the surviving son remembers the events leading up to the crash. The first reports said there was serious head trauma. Even with a concussion you don't usually remember the actual trauma, there's at least initially short term memory loss. He may regain the memory with time though.


Regarding the gestational diabetes:

http://www.diabetes.org/gestational-diabetes.jsp



Diane was not the very rare woman who's type 2 just started showing symptoms at pregnancy, the baby was 2 years old. She would have had a hard diagnosis and been undergoing treatment for diabetes if she were.

& yes, her doctor would have had a regular routine of testing her as a precaution.

She simply did not have diabetes and the ME has already ruled out that possibility as a factor in the crash. I just don't understand why it's still being tossed about.

Most people would turn the phone off unless they never planned to use one again. imo

[Details]

Didn't she have a normal glucose result?I don't know - but that wouldn't test for diabetes - it'd test for if she was having a diabetic attack at the time of the accident - abnormally high or low glucose. I think it's pretty clear diabetes did not cause this accident (not all that sure it was an accident) - but diabetes is all about your body's response to sugar - a diabetic can, and frequently does, have a normal glucose result, if they are keeping it in control.


I really don't know - but in terms of possibilities - gestational diabetes makes it more possible she did have diabetes. If she did - that to me means her husband is slightly more honest, using an excuse she had, rather than an excuse she didn't have, even though both are still just an excuse that is not reality.

[Details]

Most people would turn the phone off unless they never planned to use one again. imoThat - or pure temper tantrum - either way, a clear sign of her mentality at that moment. She was pissed off, driving crazy, and drunk. Not good.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I don't know - but that wouldn't test for diabetes - it'd test for if she was having a diabetic attack at the time of the accident - abnormally high or low glucose. I think it's pretty clear diabetes did not cause this accident (not all that sure it was an accident) - but diabetes is all about your body's response to sugar - a diabetic can, and frequently does, have a normal glucose result, if they are keeping it in control.


I really don't know - but in terms of possibilities - gestational diabetes makes it more possible she did have diabetes. If she did - that to me means her husband is slightly more honest, using an excuse she had, rather than an excuse she didn't have, even though both are still just an excuse that is not reality.

I believe her readings were normal. That would eliminate a diabetic attack. imo

[Lavinia]

I wonder if Diane Schuler, herself, ever used the excuse of diabetes (to family or work) for past incidents where she didn't "seem well"?

[Ninja108]

I will freely say I believe that if this had been the father that died in the crash with the kids, none of these theories would even be considered. But because it was a mother, we want to believe other theories,including some of the absurd ones that come out of this case. We don't want to believe a mother would get wasted with her children in the car and put them and other lives at risks. We've seen countless stories that show us there is NO greater bond than a love between a mother and her child.
However, we have seen enough stories to prove that bond means nothing to some mothers. Mothers can and have beaten,tortured,sexually abused,murdered their children. And when you're an alcholic/addict, NOTHING is more important than getting that next drink or high. NOTHING. Not your dignity,your job, your family or your kids. The idea that the lab mixed up results, she had a sore tooth etc is to put it bluntly and IMO, crap. She was wasted and for those who think drunk people won't call others... it ain't called drunk dialing for nothing.

[Lady_Jean_La]

How many people called 911 before the crash?

Reportedly 6 just before the crash but perhaps more earlier. imo

[Nellie]

I think the gestational diabetes info is just smoke and mirrors being thrown about by a desperate and slick defense attorney. I doubt very much if that means she has diabetes now, and if it can be substantiated by schuler's personal physician.

The question is why the heck was she downing the vodka so early that morning? What events precipatated that kind of response? I think somebody in that family knows and isn't speaking.

Some people head for the bottle as soon as they get up and continue all day long. My in-laws did. :sad:

[dgfred]

Interesting point someone on tv was making that in some cases of bodies 'cooking' in a fire can sometimes give a result of alchohol in the body... even if this was possible or the case, it would not explain the undigested alchohol in the stomach.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I wonder if Diane Schuler, herself, ever used the excuse of diabetes (to family or work) for past incidents where she didn't "seem well"?

That would explain a lot. imo

[Mandysmom]

Husband said she always packed the bottle of Vodka for these trips (even though she never drank it according to him but she was frugal with it). So by his admission about this bottle of Vodka, I'm convinced it was her bottle and she knew it was there.

I don't know about NY but we have an open container law here. You can't drive with a bottle of liquor (even a beer) that has been opened.

Seems that the husband would have known better.

:sad:

[Details]

I believe her readings were normal. That would eliminate a diabetic attack. imoYep - as I said in that post - normal readings mean no attack - but they do not mean she was not a diabetic. But we knew that. It's been proven conclusively - she was just plain old drunk.

That doesn't answer the question I'm looking at. Is the husband presenting diabetes - knowing she did not have it; or is he presenting diabetes - knowing she did have it, and preferring to believe this comforting lie that somehow it could have caused her to do what she did.

There's a large difference between the two. On one side - it's someone outright lying to try to hide his wife's responsibility. On the other side, it's someone who could be in denial, choosing to believe it was the disease, not his wife, that killed their child, his nieces, and nearly his son.


I've never said diabetes had anything to do with the crash. Blood alcohol, alcohol in the stomach, and a bottle in the car - that's solid.

[Nellie]

Interesting point someone on tv was making that in some cases of bodies 'cooking' in a fire can sometimes give a result of alchohol in the body... even if this was possible or the case, it would not explain the undigested alchohol in the stomach.

She did not burn up to my knowledge. She was pulled from her vehicle by an off duty fireman.
She was drunk. Why all the excuses?

[Ninja108]

I will also note during the press conference the Defense Attorney said pot smoking isn't a crime anymore. Someone must have changed the laws when we weren't looking....

[Details]

I know. :laugh:

Even message board posters can be enablers, I guess. :confused:

imoOr they can be looking for the truth - even the complex truth.

Right now, we have two possible fathers.

Father 1 - he knows his wife is a drinker, knows she isn't a diabetic - but is so desperate to cover up his complicity in covering for her that he's making up a disease. He's lost one child, several nieces, and his son is in the hospital - but he's spending his time trying to cover up.

Father 2 - doesn't know his wife is a drinker, believes she was diabetic, or could have been - and is buying into these excuses, any way he can believe she didn't choose to get drunk - because the alternative - that he never knew who his wife really was, and that she chose to get drunk and kill the kids - is just too horrible to believe right now.

I'm interested in whether we have Father 1, or Father 2.



Personally, I don't think namecalling groups of posters is useful.

[Lavinia]

That would explain a lot. imo

That's what I thought Lady. It would play into their ignorance about her drinking, it would explain that this is NOT the first incident but what they saw before they thought was a medical condition, and it would explain where *they* got the diabetes "excuse". If someone (her family) is relatively unschooled about medical problems, what she might say about gest. diabetes could very well be made palatable to them especially when someone doesn't want to believe the worst about their loved one; the beloved mother of 2 children.

[Lavinia]

I believe it is quite obvious "Father 1" is what those who are following this case are seeing.

You are such a cynic, RS! :laugh:

[Details]

I will also note during the press conference the Defense Attorney said pot smoking isn't a crime anymore. Someone must have changed the laws when we weren't looking....I know sometimes they distinguish between possession and use. You aren't allowed to have pot in your possession - but if you've used it - they cannot get you for having used it. A very weird distinction. I don't know if that's what he's talking about.

[Details]

Name calling? Since when is "enabler" an offensive word? :rolleyes:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/name-callingAre you kidding?

Yes, enabler is offensive. How would it not be? Is there any time when it is a good thing - in the context of alcoholism and dead children?

[Details]

Indeed "they" can get you for having used it.

Especially when "they" catch you driving under the influence of "it."

D.U.I. isn't just for drinking & driving.DUI - influence of anything - yes, I know that. Just trying to figure some explanation for the defense attorney's words there, since pot hasn't been decriminalized anywhere that I'm aware of - and not in California.

[Casecase]

Or they can be looking for the truth - even the complex truth.

Right now, we have two possible fathers.

Father 1 - he knows his wife is a drinker, knows she isn't a diabetic - but is so desperate to cover up his complicity in covering for her that he's making up a disease. He's lost one child, several nieces, and his son is in the hospital - but he's spending his time trying to cover up.

Father 2 - doesn't know his wife is a drinker, believes she was diabetic, or could have been - and is buying into these excuses, any way he can believe she didn't choose to get drunk - because the alternative - that he never knew who his wife really was, and that she chose to get drunk and kill the kids - is just too horrible to believe right now.

I'm interested in whether we have Father 1, or Father 2.



Personally, I don't think namecalling groups of posters is useful.



I personally think he is probably Father 2. He is probably so deep in denial that his wife could do such a thing - and that he could have not known it - that thinking it was a medical problem might be the only life raft he has to cling to. Otherwise it becomes a horrible circle of "what if" and "why" and "if only I had . . . ".

And I think it's possible that someone can keep alcoholism or drug abuse a secret. How many times do we hear family members say they had no idea one of their loved ones was involved with drugs or alcohol? Or teenagers living in the same house with their parents and leading secret lives? It happens.


IMO

[Details]

Jaded, cynic. Same difference. :)

What I see is a husband attempting to divert personal responsibility away from the very person who is most definitely responsible.I think that's most likely - and if he is - to this degree - I wonder why - what his involvement is - that's why the question of which Father is so important to me.

But Father 2 still seems barely possible. It's not easy to believe someone you loved and lived with is that type of person - that type of denial from families is something we've seen often enough. I suspect many of us would go through that type of denial if one of our friends, spouses, family members, was suddenly being considered guilty of something that just totally did not fit with the person we knew.

As I see it, the difference between the two - someone in denial, and someone trying to divert responsibility - lies in the lies.

If you're in denial, you'll use the truth - maybe her diabetes got to her (for someone who DOES have diabetes), maybe she drank alcohol to take care of low blood sugar, maybe she had a clot. If you're trying to divert responsibility - you have no reason not to go for the lies - make up a disease, make up a bottle of vodka that is always present but never used, etc.

If you are in denial - you'll look to the truth to find out where they are innocent. If you are just trying to dodge responsibility, lies work.

[R~O~S]

(respectfully snipped)

It's not relevant to the accident. It is relevant to who the father is. If he's telling the truth about the diabetes - he can be a grieving father who is choosing to believe an excuse. If she didn't have it - that would indicate he's deliberately lying. The two options show very different character for the father.


ahhhh, now I got ya. Yes, I agree. Knowing if she did or didn't have it would tell us something about Daniel and what he's stating at this time.

[Lavinia]

Jaded, cynic. Same difference. :)

What I see is a husband attempting to divert personal responsibility away from the very person who is most definitely responsible.

I know, I know. I think the probability is that he is "diverting", but I like to give a benefit of the doubt until proven wrong, as I know I have done things that might look bad but had very innocent explanations and I know other who have.

I have a very close family member who drank to excess for 30 years. Not a soul, including his wife, best friend, mother, knew he EVER drank to drunkenness and even when he was pulled over by police for hitting and running, FGS, the cops didn't pick up on his drinking. They thought he must be tired. :rolleyes: It wasn't until he decided to dry out because he knew he had a bad problem, did he out himself to everyone. And it was bad. He was just extremely highly functional.

I'm the original where there's smoke there's fire, but I've learned that it might just be a science experiment gone wrong, lol.

[R~O~S]

Most people would turn the phone off unless they never planned to use one again. imo


I don't know about that, especially someone who's smashed & ticked. Tossing it out the window, if that's what she did, would be an act of aggression toward the person you don't want to talk to anymore.

Also, we don't know it was her phone, do we? Isn't it possible it was the nieces phone she tossed, which would also make it an act of aggression toward the niece for calling her Daddy.

Turning my cell phone off means depressing a very small button for about 30 seconds. Diane was having vision issues & may not have been familiar with the phone she was using.

My husband wouldn't know how to turn his off, I do it for him at the airports which is just about the only time we turn them off.

& finally, I don't think we know she tossed it, they're still saying she could have forgotten it at the rest stop. I don't find that unbelievable. Convenient, but not unbelievable.

[Details]

No it is not offensive. It's a clinical term.

What do dead children have to do with message board posters?

Get a grip!

imoThat's a silly idea - that a clinical term is not offensive just because it's clinical. If I called a group of posters sociopaths, because I don't like the perspective they are discussing - is that not offensive too? It is, after all, a clinical term.


And yes, this case involves dead children. To call someone an enabler in this area is far worse than if we were merely discussing someone with a problem that did not involve children being killed.

[Details]

ahhhh, now I got ya. Yes, I agree. Knowing if she did or didn't have it would tell us something about Daniel and what he's stating at this time.Yep! That's what I'm looking at. The labwork ended the question of if it impacted the accident. But with police and/or CPS looking at the father - the question of if he is telling the truth as he knows it as part of a fairly normal denial phase, clinging to anything that might explain this accident other than that his wife was an alcoholic and he should have known, or is making up lies - that's still a relevant question here.

[Lavinia]

O/T but please excuse my spelling and sentence structure lately. :blushing: I believe my medical condition is kicking up.

[dgfred]

I know. :laugh:

Even message board posters can be enablers, I guess. :confused:

imo

Of course I could have been trying to pass some interesting information on to you guys..... not enabling or making excuses :rolleyes: , jeez read.

[R~O~S]

I will also note during the press conference the Defense Attorney said pot smoking isn't a crime anymore. Someone must have changed the laws when we weren't looking....



It's been decriminalized in a lot of states including my own.

However, driving under the influence is now and always will be a crime. So, I'm unclear as to why he thinks that's a valid defense.

LE in my state is quite upset at this point over the very recent decriminalization. It's now a ticket with a $100.00 fine, but apparently there's no way to enforce payment. If you get a speeding ticket they can refuse to renew your auto registration, they can't revoke you're pedestrian rights.

They're saying they've had people blow smoke right in their direction only to tear up the ticket as they walk away.

[Details]

That, to me Details, is the "operative phrase" here.

Her family attempting to excuse her bad decisions that fateful day.

I suppose I can understand the "trying", but there simply is no excuse for what she chose to do.

MOOOf course not - but why are they trying? Normal family denial - or something more?

[R~O~S]

I personally think he is probably Father 2. He is probably so deep in denial that his wife could do such a thing - and that he could have not known it - that thinking it was a medical problem might be the only life raft he has to cling to. Otherwise it becomes a horrible circle of "what if" and "why" and "if only I had . . . ".

And I think it's possible that someone can keep alcoholism or drug abuse a secret. How many times do we hear family members say they had no idea one of their loved ones was involved with drugs or alcohol? Or teenagers living in the same house with their parents and leading secret lives? It happens.


IMO


I'll tell you one thing, if my sister who lived next door to me, who I saw daily and shared a side yard with could hide the fact that her husband was kicking the ever living daylights out of her for 20 years, anyone can hide anything from even those closest to them.

It wasn't until he fractured his own 14 year old sons skull throwing him into the fireplace, when he tried to pull his father off his mother, that anyone knew. Neither my sister, nor any of her 4 children ever gave any indication & when she was bruised she wore clothing that covered. He was careful not to mark her face.

Anyone can hide anything from even those closest to them, I'll stand by that to my last day on earth. I know it for fact.

[R~O~S]

Something more IMO.

Seems her family can be held responsible for what SHE chose to do.
How is that right? :shrug:

He could lose more than his loved ones here.

THAT may make him attempt to muddy the water.


No, actually they can hold Daniel responsible for what he knew. If he knew she may drink with the children in the car, he had a responsibility to keep the kids out of the car. That's what the DSS investigation is all about, if he knew he could very well lose custody of his son.

Diane's share of the house can be at risk in a civil suit & I believe it will be. I don't think the auto insurance or the home owners insurance will cover the liability for the deaths of the three men in the SUV they hit and there was another couple injured as well. The other couple could need extended care, or suffer disability because of their injuries.

Daniel has a lot riding on the results of whether he knew or not. If he knew he not only could lose his son, it would make the case for his civil liability too.

But, as far as I know, no other family member is financially at risk. I find it difficult to believe the mother of the three little girls, the nieces, is going to remain silent for long if there's anything to know.

I find the S-I-L who spoke publicly interesting. First she states she let Diane drive her son daily, just a couple of years ago. But later says he's a senior now, and that was when he was in eighth grade. Where I come from, that would make it 4 to 5 years ago. This is the S-I-L who contacted the lawyer on Daniel's behalf.

[AZCHARGED]

I'll tell you one thing, if my sister who lived next door to me, who I saw daily and shared a side yard with could hide the fact that her husband was kicking the ever living daylights out of her for 20 years, anyone can hide anything from even those closest to them.

It wasn't until he fractured his own 14 year old sons skull throwing him into the fireplace, when he tried to pull his father off his mother, that anyone knew. Neither my sister, nor any of her 4 children ever gave any indication & when she was bruised she wore clothing that covered. He was careful not to mark her face.

Anyone can hide anything from even those closest to them, I'll stand by that to my last day on earth. I know it for fact.

Just curious: You never witnessed any kind of out of control temper or above average rage in your (hopefully former) brother-in law??

[Details]

Something more IMO.

Seems her family can be held responsible for what SHE chose to do.
How is that right? :shrug:

He could lose more than his loved ones here.

THAT may make him attempt to muddy the water.They can be responsible for what THEY chose to do. IFF he knew she had an alcohol problem, IFF he knew she was drunk, going to get drunk, high, or otherwise impaired, and let her drive off with the kids, he does share the responsibility for what happened.

That's a reason.

Still doesn't mean he knew - but there is a reason he can be held responsible IFF he knew.

[R~O~S]

Just curious: You never witnessed any kind of out of control temper or above average rage in your (hopefully former) brother-in law??

Definitively former, and I can assure you I'll be at every parole board hearing insuring he remains a guest of the state for as long as possible.


He was the "perfect" husband and employee as far as anyone was concerned. The guy that had people lining up to give character witness, certain she was crazy or somehow had done something to cause an isolated incident. Then they entered her medical history into the record. There's only one way to get a spiral fracture or six.


ETA: I should mention he was never very social. It wasn't uncommon for him to skip family events, she'd come with the kids only, he didn't participate in neighborhood cookouts or anything like that. He'd play a round of golf with my DH and a couple of other neighbors once in a great while.

[Lavinia]

<Respectfully snipped>

Anyone can hide anything from even those closest to them, I'll stand by that to my last day on earth. I know it for fact.

ITA, ROS. I recounted one instance where many of us were fooled for over 30 years of adulthood by someone very close to us, but I also lost a best friend a few years ago and my old boyfriend for reasons I didn't have a clue of. I have learned we don't EVER truly know anyone and too often, don't even know ourselves.

[Details]

If you called a bunch of posters sociopaths you'd be wrong - unless what they posted indicated to you that they were. Just like you were wrong about what name calling means.

It is my opinion that certain posters are most likely enablers because of the content of their posts.

This is my last post on the subject.

Bye Bye.........

MOODoesn't matter if the "name" is your honest opinion - it's still namecalling. If I think a bunch of posters are posting like sociopaths - it's still an insult, it's still namecalling - and I'm still as wrong as you were about calling people enablers, just because they hold a different perspective - or worse - in this situation - merely wish to consider and look at the other argument, to evaluate how false it is.


Was she a diabetic is not an enabler thing to look at. Providing an interesting medical tidbit about alcohol formed in blood by a process other than drinking - also not enabling. And believing in a name you call someone does not make it not a name. Nor does it assist in a discussion.

[Details]

ITA, ROS. I recounted one instance where many of us were fooled for over 30 years of adulthood by someone very close to us, but I also lost a best friend a few years ago and my old boyfriend for reasons I didn't have a clue of. I have learned we don't EVER truly know anyone and too often, don't even know ourselves.I've been fortunate enough not to be so shocked by anyone I know yet - but I know that's not something that is in my control - anyone can be fooled. For so many reasons, it can be so easy sometimes.

I know people can be fooled - so when I see a killer's family in denial - I try to look below the surface to figure out if it is true denial, or if they knew. Either is possible. In this case, with a surviving child, it may be very important for LE and CPS to figure that out.

[Lavinia]

I've been fortunate enough not to be so shocked by anyone I know yet - but I know that's not something that is in my control - anyone can be fooled. For so many reasons, it can be so easy sometimes.

I know people can be fooled - so when I see a killer's family in denial - I try to look below the surface to figure out if it is true denial, or if they knew. Either is possible. In this case, with a surviving child, it may be very important for LE and CPS to figure that out.

Agreed Details, agreed. Other than the person I know who was a hidden alcoholic, I was fooled even more by someone even closer to me. Fooled to the BONE, I tell ya'. Even with the 20/20 vision of time and retrospect, I saw/see no clues. Some people just know how to live double lives and do it very well.

[Details]

Agreed Details, agreed. Other than the person I know who was a hidden alcoholic, I was fooled even more by someone even closer to me. Fooled to the BONE, I tell ya'. Even with the 20/20 vision of time and retrospect, I saw/see no clues. Some people just know how to live double lives and do it very well.I've not had that experience - thankfully - but I have seen people lie so well that I was convinced they were telling the truth. I wish we could tell - wouldn't that feel so much more secure, to think we could tell? But so far as I can tell - that's not the truth. Sometimes you can tell, other times you cannot.

In this case - I think I'm spotting lies from the father - and that'd put him into Father 1 slot - that he'd have known. But I'd never be sure Father 2 was impossible until I'm sure if he's lying - and we may never know that for sure.

[Lavinia]

I've not had that experience - thankfully - but I have seen people lie so well that I was convinced they were telling the truth. I wish we could tell - wouldn't that feel so much more secure, to think we could tell? But so far as I can tell - that's not the truth. Sometimes you can tell, other times you cannot.

In this case - I think I'm spotting lies from the father - and that'd put him into Father 1 slot - that he'd have known. But I'd never be sure Father 2 was impossible until I'm sure if he's lying - and we may never know that for sure.

I, too, *think* he is father #1, but I'm not ready to throw him to the wolves yet. (And I know you aren't either, I'm just putting my position out here, lol.)

[R~O~S]

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090807/NEWS/908070347/-1/rss01

"State Police Dispute Report 911 Callers Spotted Erratic Van"

"It's a call that State Troop F Commander Maj Edward Raso says his troop frequently receives, although he reinteerates that they received no calls relating to Schuler's minivan that day."


That's really bizarre. It was police and the responders who first said they got the calls and gave the number. Why would the county be saying otherwise?

Is there another way to reach State Police in an emergency on the highway? Would the speed dial for them route the call somewhere other than the barracks or the county?

I don't think the responders would have said anything, if they didn't know. I don't see any reason for them to fabricate such a thing, especially having come onto that kind of scene.

My son is a first responder, these cases really have a lasting impact. Like the other articles on the responders, they get through the emergency, go home and hug their children, two days later they're having rage issues and even they didn't see it coming. My thoughts remain with the men and women who worked this accident.

But, 911 calls and the calls to the medical personnel are taped, if they were made, regardless of how they were made, they'll find them.

[henry]

I want to know how long before the collision was 911 called?

Why didn't the police respond? :angry:

Why is 911 denying that they received the calls when six separate witnesses all said the same thing?

imo

i think this quote was from orange county . . . once a car crosses the bridge, one is in westchester county.

[R~O~S]

i think this quote was from orange county . . . once a car crosses the bridge, one is in westchester county.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. The cells would have directed the call to the nearest LE emergency center based on the cell tower location, right? Orange County may not have been the nearest, nor the state police barracks, but a different county.

[Details]

i think this quote was from orange county . . . once a car crosses the bridge, one is in westchester county.That would explain it. And the brother's 911 call after his daughter called him - was that Westchester, Orange County, or someplace else entirely?

[Casecase]

There was a case somewhat similar to this in my neck of the woods. 24-year-old had a blood alcohol content more than twice the legal limit and marijuana in his system - he had been drinking at a family gathering at a bar. He had a room at a hotel reserved but for some reason decided to leave and go to the Taco Bell drive-thru (the family he was with didn't know he had left). The Taco Bell employee tried to keep him until the police arrived but couldn't, and minutes later, this guy went the wrong way down the highway and hit a minivan with a family heading back home after spending Christmas with their family - killed the mother and 4 children. The father and one child survived.

The family recently filed a wrongful death lawsuit against not only the driver (who received a 43-year prison sentence) and the owners of the bar that served him, but the two family members who owned the pick-up truck he drove.

So I do wonder if the family of the men who were killed will file a lawsuit against the husband, if the vehicle was in his name solely or jointly.


IMO

[R~O~S]

There was a case somewhat similar to this in my neck of the woods. 24-year-old had a blood alcohol content more than twice the legal limit and marijuana in his system - he had been drinking at a family gathering at a bar. He had a room at a hotel reserved but for some reason decided to leave and go to the Taco Bell drive-thru (the family he was with didn't know he had left). The Taco Bell employee tried to keep him until the police arrived but couldn't, and minutes later, this guy went the wrong way down the highway and hit a minivan with a family heading back home after spending Christmas with their family - killed the mother and 4 children. The father and one child survived.

The family recently filed a wrongful death lawsuit against not only the driver (who received a 43-year prison sentence) and the owners of the bar that served him, but the two family members who owned the pick-up truck he drove.

So I do wonder if the family of the men who were killed will file a lawsuit against the husband, if the vehicle was in his name solely or jointly.


IMO

There will definitely be a suit against the auto insurance and it doesn't matter who's name it's in. There will also be a suit against Diane's share of the house, I think.

The big question is was Daniel aware, in which case his share of the house could also be in jeopardy. Except, I'm pretty sure they can't take your primary residence in the case of civil suit (I know this to be true in my state, I'm just not sure it's true in NY). So perhaps the biggest problem would be a lean against the house in the event he ever sold it.

That's exactly why whether Daniel knew Diane had a problem, or was drinking when she set out, or prone to drink & drive is so important.

[Casecase]

There will definitely be a suit against the auto insurance and it doesn't matter who's name it's in. There will also be a suit against Diane's share of the house, I think.

The big question is was Daniel aware, in which case his share of the house could also be in jeopardy. Except, I'm pretty sure they can't take your primary residence in the case of civil suit (I know this to be true in my state, I'm just not sure it's true in NY). So perhaps the biggest problem would be a lean against the house in the event he ever sold it.

That's exactly why whether Daniel knew Diane had a problem, or was drinking when she set out, or prone to drink & drive is so important.

I'm sure there will be a lawsuit against the auto insurance, but in the case I mentioned, the owners of the pick-up truck in that accident were sued personally simply because they owned the truck. So if the vehicle was in Daniel's name, will he be sued personally?


IMO

[R~O~S]

I'm sure there will be a lawsuit against the auto insurance, but in the case I mentioned, the owners of the pick-up truck in that accident were sued personally simply because they owned the truck. So if the vehicle was in Daniel's name, will he be sued personally?


IMO

Yes, because they knew he was drunk and didn't take the keys, allowed him access to the truck. If he'd stolen the truck, they wouldn't be liable.

Daniel will be at risk if he knew she was drunk/drinking/smoking & did nothing regardless of whether he owns the van.

[henry]

That would explain it. And the brother's 911 call after his daughter called him - was that Westchester, Orange County, or someplace else entirely?

here's a county map - lower section . . . sullivan to orange county to rockland county to westchester county appears to be the route . . . the hudson river runs north/south separating rockland from westchester county and one must cross the tapanzee bridge.

long island is in the lower right - nassau & suffok counties . . . hope this helps.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/maps/new_york_map.html

also . . . the state police patrol the taconic for speeders . . . usually 2 - 10 miles north of the accident site.

edit . . . and there's a state police barracks maybe 5 minutes away from the accident on rt. 9A . . . or maybe a westchester county police barracks . . . will check it out next time i go by . . .

[daniel green]

This man was so angry, though. Just angry about the fact that the tox report showed alcohol and marijuana use. Seems like a very strange emotion at the time.

[n/t]

I'm sure there will be a lawsuit against the auto insurance, but in the case I mentioned, the owners of the pick-up truck in that accident were sued personally simply because they owned the truck. So if the vehicle was in Daniel's name, will he be sued personally?


IMO

Do you know what the outcome of that case was? Just curious.

[daniel green]

911 is denying that they were called. I posted a link upthread.

Don't you find that odd?

imo

I certainly do. VERY odd.

[Nellie]

There was a case somewhat similar to this in my neck of the woods. 24-year-old had a blood alcohol content more than twice the legal limit and marijuana in his system - he had been drinking at a family gathering at a bar. He had a room at a hotel reserved but for some reason decided to leave and go to the Taco Bell drive-thru (the family he was with didn't know he had left). The Taco Bell employee tried to keep him until the police arrived but couldn't, and minutes later, this guy went the wrong way down the highway and hit a minivan with a family heading back home after spending Christmas with their family - killed the mother and 4 children. The father and one child survived.

The family recently filed a wrongful death lawsuit against not only the driver (who received a 43-year prison sentence) and the owners of the bar that served him, but the two family members who owned the pick-up truck he drove.

So I do wonder if the family of the men who were killed will file a lawsuit against the husband, if the vehicle was in his name solely or jointly.


IMO

She was driving her brother's van!

[Casecase]

This man was so angry, though. Just angry about the fact that the tox report showed alcohol and marijuana use. Seems like a very strange emotion at the time.

I don't think it's strange that he's angry if he's in total denial, thinking no way, no how this happened, thinking that the ME has it wrong.


IMO

[Casecase]

Do you know what the outcome of that case was? Just curious.


No, the lawsuit was just filed at the end of June. I imagine it will be awhile.


IMO

[Nellie]

On Nancy Grace now....
Hubby told police that his wife drank socially and smoked pot....

[Casecase]

She was driving her brother's van!

That's right, I had forgotten about that. So if it wasn't her or her husband's van and her brother had given her permission to drive it, then it could potentially be a lawsuit against the brother's auto insurance and not hers and her husband's. That will depend on the language of both of their policies and state law. And if the brother had known her to drink but voluntarily gave her the keys, can he be sued personally?


IMO

[n/t]

That's right, I had forgotten about that. So if it wasn't her or her husband's van and her brother had given her permission to drive it, then it could potentially be a lawsuit against the brother's auto insurance and not hers and her husband's. That will depend on the language of both of their policies and state law. And if the brother had known her to drink but voluntarily gave her the keys, can he be sued personally?


IMO

IMO, I don't think the brother knew she was an alcoholic and he and his wife trusted her with their kids.

He wasn't there. He apparently told her to wait and he'd go get her when the phone call was made claiming she was feeling ill.

I doubt he's responsible for this horrific accident. I think this poor man has been through hell. I just can't imagine the pain he and his wife must be going through.

[n/t]

No, the lawsuit was just filed at the end of June. I imagine it will be awhile.


IMO

ok thanks.

[kelloggirl]

Been following this case avidly but haven't posted at all. Watching Nancy Grace and one thing that was questioned was whether the THC showed up in her system could be old or from the night before. The pathologist said that the answer is no - a toxicology report measures the active levels of THC in the system, whereas a drug test (as given by employers, etc) measures something else or in a different way to test whether someone is a chronic user or a long-term user. (I am not 100% on the details of the differences between the tests, but the pathologist was clear that the THC was fresh and it was a lot.)

I don't doubt that she was great at keeping at this a huge secret from her family - addicts are the sneakiest, best secret keepers. Or think they are. (I speak from experience with a family member.)

For some reason, I don't think that it was a murder/suicide. I think she panicked when her brother told her he was coming to get her - she would be found out, she was driving with his kids and was in a state of irrational panic and fear, so she got rid of the phone and escaped as fast as she could, not paying attention to which way she was going or perhaps deliberately thinking if she went the other direction he wouldn't be able to find her.

On one hand, it makes me suspicious that the husband is trying so hard to find other explanations that defy logic and the evidence. Desperate denial or guilty conscience? Trying to preserve her memory for her own surviving son's sake or trying to cover his own butt against lawsuits? Or maybe it's all of the above. I just don't know. By all accounts, she was not drunk when she left. And even if he knew she had a drinking problem, perhaps he never realized the severity of it or that she would ever do what she did, never in a million years.

[Casecase]

IMO, I don't think the brother knew she was an alcoholic and he and his wife trusted her with their kids.

He wasn't there. He apparently told her to wait and he'd go get her when the phone call was made claiming she was feeling ill.

I doubt he's responsible for this horrific accident. I think this poor man has been through hell. I just can't imagine the pain he and his wife must be going through.


I don't think anyone is responsible for this accident except for Diane. That's why I keep thinking, how would the family of the two men collect on a wrongful death lawsuit? I'm sure they're grieving terribly and human nature is to want to have someone in front of you that you can punish, but unless Diane was drunk before she left the campground and her husband knew it and let her leave (which, based on the campground owner and McDonald's employees accounts does not appear to be the case), I don't think anyone is responsible for her accident except her.


IMO

[StickyBeak]

Reading all your posts, I still can't get a grip on this. She was fine at Mcdonalds or wherever she stopped for lunch. Then just proceeded to totally inebriate herself while driving these children? Smoking pot, these kids had to have smelled it, did she have vodka straight in travel mug? Good Lord, sounds more and more like something set her off so bad she just did not care who she killed. I can't grasp any of this.
The Husband now admitting she did drink and smoke pot. Well, she is home free and left him with Hell on earth. Those innocent lives lost for what. I just cannot imagine the mindset to do such a thing. I honestly was hoping beyond hope that somehow she stopped at a rest stop and someone grabbed her while the children went into the rest rooms or played. I know, denial, I just can't comprehend. JMO

[Nellie]

You mean you thought/hoped someone grabbed her at the Rest Stop and poured Vodka down her??? :scared:

As far as not appearing drunk when she left or at McDonald's....many alcoholics are functioning alcoholics. My FIL went to work every day with booze in him! Drunks aren't alway falling all over the place, so I'm not sure that the employees at McD would really know whether she was drunk or not. I know I'm not around alcohol a lot, so I can't always tell when someone is drunk unless they're falling down and acting stupid! And the people at the campground....how close did they get to her when she was leaving? Did they just wave "bye" to her?
I honestly think she could have already been drinking before she left the campground and still been fully functioning and kept on drinking until she got herself in this mess. I am curious, though, about the two hours they can't account for.

On NG some guy tried to say the kids would have known she was drinking! Maybe so, but they're not here to say! But, if they had a dvd player like many vans, I can tell you from personal experience that the kids could be glued to that and totally tune out anything else happening around them. So, I don't think it would have been hard for her to drink and the kids not know it.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I want to know how long before the collision was 911 called?

Why didn't the police respond? :angry:

Why is 911 denying that they received the calls when six separate witnesses all said the same thing?

imo

I don't know how it works in New York. In my area all cellular 911 calls go through the highway patrol in Los Angeles. Then the LA office would contact a unit in the area. Other units in the area might not know. Local 911 might not know. Cellular calls are low priority.

It is much better to call the local authorities.

imo

[Nellie]

Been following this case avidly but haven't posted at all. Watching Nancy Grace and one thing that was questioned was whether the THC showed up in her system could be old or from the night before. The pathologist said that the answer is no - a toxicology report measures the active levels of THC in the system, whereas a drug test (as given by employers, etc) measures something else or in a different way to test whether someone is a chronic user or a long-term user. (I am not 100% on the details of the differences between the tests, but the pathologist was clear that the THC was fresh and it was a lot.)

I don't doubt that she was great at keeping at this a huge secret from her family - addicts are the sneakiest, best secret keepers. Or think they are. (I speak from experience with a family member.)

For some reason, I don't think that it was a murder/suicide. I think she panicked when her brother told her he was coming to get her - she would be found out, she was driving with his kids and was in a state of irrational panic and fear, so she got rid of the phone and escaped as fast as she could, not paying attention to which way she was going or perhaps deliberately thinking if she went the other direction he wouldn't be able to find her.

On one hand, it makes me suspicious that the husband is trying so hard to find other explanations that defy logic and the evidence. Desperate denial or guilty conscience? Trying to preserve her memory for her own surviving son's sake or trying to cover his own butt against lawsuits? Or maybe it's all of the above. I just don't know. By all accounts, she was not drunk when she left. And even if he knew she had a drinking problem, perhaps he never realized the severity of it or that she would ever do what she did, never in a million years.

Being this drunk, what did she think she'd do when she arrived back at her brother's house (if they had made it there!). At that point her "secret" would have been evident.....if it was a secret at all.
I'm curious about the two hours they can't account for. Could she have just driven around trying to give herself time to "sober up" before having to face her brother? Then her niece called daddy and ruined that....which made her mad. Secret was being blown by little niece. Then brother keeps calling her and she was totally panicked that he was coming to get her....he would know her secret!!! I read, though, that her brother waited 40 minutes before heading out. Did she convince him she was ok and he waited and then went out after she didn't get home? Oh how I wish he could have told his little girl for all of the kids to get out of the van while they were sitting there!

[Lady_Jean_La]

I don't know about that, especially someone who's smashed & ticked. Tossing it out the window, if that's what she did, would be an act of aggression toward the person you don't want to talk to anymore.

Also, we don't know it was her phone, do we? Isn't it possible it was the nieces phone she tossed, which would also make it an act of aggression toward the niece for calling her Daddy.

Turning my cell phone off means depressing a very small button for about 30 seconds. Diane was having vision issues & may not have been familiar with the phone she was using.

My husband wouldn't know how to turn his off, I do it for him at the airports which is just about the only time we turn them off.

& finally, I don't think we know she tossed it, they're still saying she could have forgotten it at the rest stop. I don't find that unbelievable. Convenient, but not unbelievable.

Another possibility which is extremely remote, she didn't want to be tracked using the phone, which can be done even when the phone is off. imo

[Lavinia]

Being this drunk, what did she think she'd do when she arrived back at her brother's house (if they had made it there!). At that point her "secret" would have been evident.....if it was a secret at all.
I'm curious about the two hours they can't account for. Could she have just driven around trying to give herself time to "sober up" before having to face her brother? Then her niece called daddy and ruined that....which made her mad. Secret was being blown by little niece. Then brother keeps calling her and she was totally panicked that he was coming to get her....he would know her secret!!! I read, though, that her brother waited 40 minutes before heading out. Did she convince him she was ok and he waited and then went out after she didn't get home? Oh how I wish he could have told his little girl for all of the kids to get out of the van while they were sitting there!

That was my point up-thread, Nellie. That's one of the things that made me wonder about suicide, because the cat would certainly have been out of the bag then.

[Lady_Jean_La]

911 is denying that they were called. I posted a link upthread.

Don't you find that odd?

imo
Extremely odd, unless we are talking about 911 HP and 911 local. imo

[Daffny]

I would just like to interject my opinion on the matter of "vodka being elusive and unnoticeable"

I have an older relative who is an alcoholic and binge drinks, but occasionally sustains a "twilight" drunk. VODKA is VERY noticeable on the breath. It may not be as pungent as other forms of liquor, but it's certainly distinguishable - IMO. Especially when the body begins to "sweat" the booze out. It's very obvious and not as "secretive" as some make it out to be.

A person living with an alcoholic KNOWS. There is NO WAY this can be hidden. I also have a family member who drinks straight vodka in a water bottle or coffee cup, and when I get the kiss goodbye, I KNOW. There is no way this can be hidden from a family member.

ALL IMHO.

[R~O~S]

That was my point up-thread, Nellie. That's one of the things that made me wonder about suicide, because the cat would certainly have been out of the bag then.

I think, they're going to find she may have put a lot of miles on the road, more than they originally thought.


Where in on the road is the lost time?

I once got lost, I was almost to the state line before I realized my mistake and turned around. Couldn't she have taken the wrong road, needed to double back and that's all there is to it? She was now panicked because she's not going to get the girls home in time for their practice.

She drinks more to settle her nerves, and over did it big time?

It's just too much time for nothing more than pulling over to refill her travel mug.

Or is there another place, a recreational place, a park she could have stopped under the guise of letting the kids run around and stretch their legs, while she had a few to many? Possibly dosed off for a bit and spent more time than intended.

There have got to be witnesses to fill in the blanks, narrow the point on the road where the time loss occurred.

[Lady_Jean_La]

That was my point up-thread, Nellie. That's one of the things that made me wonder about suicide, because the cat would certainly have been out of the bag then.Great point! Maybe finding out was worse than death. imo

[Hey Paula]

Extremely odd, unless we are talking about 911 HP and 911 local. imo

ITA because the TSP runs from Westchester County through and ends in Columbia County (approximately 100 miles north).

The actual fatal crash occurred in Hawthorne, which is in Westchester County.

[Hey Paula]

Here is a link from my local paper which contains comprehensive coverage and info re this horrific fatal crash.

A recap of the fatal Taconic crash of July 26:

http://www.lohud.com/article/200990810010

[girlspell]

I hear the family of the three men killed in the crash wants to sue Mr. Schuler. Their reasoning is that he could have tried to prevent his wife from continuing the car trip. But I've heard that Ms Schuler's brother tried to get her to wait while he drove out to her. He also called the police concerning his sister. So I don't think the Bastardi family has a case.

[Lavinia]

I think, they're going to find she may have put a lot of miles on the road, more than they originally thought.


Where in on the road is the lost time?

I once got lost, I was almost to the state line before I realized my mistake and turned around. Couldn't she have taken the wrong road, needed to double back and that's all there is to it? She was now panicked because she's not going to get the girls home in time for their practice.

She drinks more to settle her nerves, and over did it big time?

It's just too much time for nothing more than pulling over to refill her travel mug.

Or is there another place, a recreational place, a park she could have stopped under the guise of letting the kids run around and stretch their legs, while she had a few to many? Possibly dosed off for a bit and spent more time than intended.

There have got to be witnesses to fill in the blanks, narrow the point on the road where the time loss occurred.

Really good points, ROS. Like every other case I follow, I'm hungry for more details that explain some of these questions.

[Why]

I don't know if she was just totally confused but she intentionally exits when going south and almost immediately enters through the northbound exit ramp.

[Lavinia]

Great point! Maybe finding out was worse than death. imo

I find it hard to believe for someone who was "never drunk", or was able to completely hide her drinking, that she chose that day, with all those kids, to get ROARING drunk AND high, to let down all her facades of a good, sober, responsible mother and wife. As loaded as she was, had there not been a crash, there would have been no hiding her condition when she got home. Talk about "coming out" with your problem.:ohmy:

[Lady_Jean_La]

Here is a link from my local paper which contains comprehensive coverage and info re this horrific fatal crash.

A recap of the fatal Taconic crash of July 26:

http://www.lohud.com/article/200990810010

Fantastic link! Thanks.:thumbsup:

[Lady_Jean_La]

I hear the family of the three men killed in the crash wants to sue Mr. Schuler. Their reasoning is that he could have tried to prevent his wife from continuing the car trip. But I've heard that Ms Schuler's brother tried to get her to wait while he drove out to her. He also called the police concerning his sister. So I don't think the Bastardi family has a case.It depends on the law there but I would think they gave a great case.

[Hey Paula]

Fantastic link! Thanks.:thumbsup:

You're welcome! :smile:

I agree with you that the Bastardi family might very well have a great case. I believe the ME's findings were accurate and Mr Schuler fears wrongful death suits and losing custody of his son. That's why he is disputing the ME's report and is calling for his wife's remains to be exhumed and an independent autopsy performed.

IMO

[MaybytheBay]

I find it hard to believe for someone who was "never drunk", or was able to completely hide her drinking, that she chose that day, with all those kids, to get ROARING drunk AND high, to let down all her facades of a good, sober, responsible mother and wife. As loaded as she was, had there not been a crash, there would have been no hiding her condition when she got home. Talk about "coming out" with your problem.:ohmy:


It is hard to believe. But if there are enough witnesses to substantiate she was not a drinker....and certainly not someone who frequently or occassionally got drunk.....it will be conspicuous evidence if it goes to a trial. I have not read thru this entire thread.....was the evidence finding of alcohol and marijuana not issued just 6 hours after the accident?....Was there a rush to judgement because alcohol was found in the vehicle...? Even a seasoned alcoholic is detected...especially by a spouse. Another question at a trial might be ...if the husband knew or family members knew.....of alcoholism...they certainly would not have entrusted their children in her care in a vehicle.....especially...or her alone...another question....?

[Casecase]

It is hard to believe. But if there are enough witnesses to substantiate she was not a drinker....and certainly not someone who frequently or occassionally got drunk.....it will be conspicuous evidence if it goes to a trial. I have not read thru this entire thread.....was the evidence finding of alcohol and marijuana not issued just 6 hours after the accident?....Was there a rush to judgement because alcohol was found in the vehicle...? Even a seasoned alcoholic is detected...especially by a spouse. Another question at a trial might be ...if the husband knew or family members knew.....of alcoholism...they certainly would not have entrusted their children in her care in a vehicle.....especially...or her alone...another question....?

The accident was on July 26 and the toxicology report was released August 4.


IMO

[Why]

This is interesting -- posted by JJJMD at this link http://www.lohud.com/article/200990810010

fully capable of going about her day without feeling impaired or overly "buzzed." The alcohol calms her nerves.

Now lets say she does this every workday, 5 days a week. That amounts to 6-7 drinks per day, spread out over the whole day, or 30+ drinks per week.

The husband has no idea because she is never "drunk" at all, and she is in bed when he gets home from work.

So now comes the weekend of the big camping trip. She packs the bottle of vodka in the car in case she wants to sneak a cocktail or two during the weekend without anyone noticing.... to calm her nerves. However, she ends up being busy or constantly with other people and as such can't drink as planned.

When they leave for home, she is completely sober and feeling totally fine. At this point it has been 48-72 hours since her last drink. Unbeknownst to her, her body starts to experience alcohol withdrawal. She starts to feel anxious and uneasy. Maybe this is when she lights up a joint to self-medicate. That, however, does not help, and she becomes progressively more anxious and agitated.

As she drives, the physical symptoms of the withdrawal become unbearable, and the normally responsible mother can no longer think coherently. She starts craving alcohol... and starts gulping down the bottle of vodka in an attempt to cure the withdrawal.

However, it's too late... she's too far into the withdrawal and develops... here it comes... DELIRIUM TREMENS!

Definition: Delirium tremens: A neurological symptom of alcohol withdrawal seen in chronic alcoholism, with includes symptoms of psychosis. These may include uncontrollable trembling, hallucinations, severe anxiety, sweating, and sudden feelings of terror. Delirium tremens can be both frightening and, in severe cases, deadly. Treatment includes observation, comfort care, and in some cases medication.

At this point she is so delirious that she does not know where she is, let alone that she is driving in the wrong direction.

Delirium tremens explains all the aspects of this case. Why she would be apparently sober when she left the campsite, why she was ok at the McDonalds, and why this reported responsible, caring mother and cablevision executive would suddenly start smoking pot and drinking straight vodka in a van full of kids before driving 2miles on a highway in the wrong direction.

I've seen patients going into DTs and it is an unmistakeable sight. When the delirium is at its peak, these people are so agitated and confused that they are completely oblivious to their current location and situation.

This condition is commonly observed in hospitals where a person who had a history of chronic low-level alcohol use (like daily happy-hour for example) is injured and admitted to the hospital (where they can't drink). 48-72 hours after admission, they develop unexplained mental status changes, psychosis, and eventually seizures.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I think it is interesting that the 911 tapes have been released of the aircraft crash in NY and these tapes haven't. :confused:

[daniel green]

From almost the moment she made the fatal turn from Pleasantville Road onto the exit ramp of the northbound Taconic State Parkway on Sunday afternoon, Diane Schuler seemed oblivious to the fact that she was driving the wrong way. "We've spoken to at least 12 witnesses, including a few who were getting off the parkway and had to swerve onto the shoulder of the exit ramp to avoid her," state police Investigator Joseph Becerra said today. "They've all been consistent in saying that she stayed within the lane and did not react when they flashed their lights and honked their horns, trying to warn her that she was headed the wrong way."

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009907280416

[MaybytheBay]

The accident was on July 26 and the toxicology report was released August 4.


IMO


Thanks for that info.. I was clandestinely pointing out a defense for the family. The toxicology report did emerge fairly swiftly (comparatively)......but I do recall reports coming out just 6 hours after the accident. (indicating she was drunk and a bottle of alcohol was found in vehicle)....What a sad feeling all around for this family.....and the other families....
But I was trying to make the point that if the family was adament and catagorical in their belief this otherwise responsible and wonderful mother did not drink......there can be much evidence brought to bare to release them (at least in front of a jury) from blameworthiness.

[Hey Paula]

Exactly!

imo

The odds of the ME being wrong on all counts (marijuana findings, intoxication level, etc) are slim to none. The story Mr Schuler told about the vodka bottle made little sense to me, especially when found in a car with a car full of children.

IMO

[Why]

This is the problem with your theory, folks in DT's are rocking and rolling. They can't even hold a coffee cup still cause their hands and body is shaking so badly, let alone manuver a car in the fast lane for 1.7 miles or for the other four hours. In any case she was drinking alcohol steadly, which wards off the symptoms of DTs caused by alcohol withdrawl. Librium is the drug of choice if in a situation that no alcohol is available, as in a jail. DT's kills and is a medical emergency.
It is so sad and tragic.

Thanks for the info. I thought that JJJMD was on to something.

[kelloggirl]

Being this drunk, what did she think she'd do when she arrived back at her brother's house (if they had made it there!). At that point her "secret" would have been evident.....if it was a secret at all.
I'm curious about the two hours they can't account for. Could she have just driven around trying to give herself time to "sober up" before having to face her brother? Then her niece called daddy and ruined that....which made her mad. Secret was being blown by little niece. Then brother keeps calling her and she was totally panicked that he was coming to get her....he would know her secret!!! I read, though, that her brother waited 40 minutes before heading out. Did she convince him she was ok and he waited and then went out after she didn't get home? Oh how I wish he could have told his little girl for all of the kids to get out of the van while they were sitting there!

Very good questions, Nellie. Now that you mention it, it does add more plausibility to a suicide scenario. When I was thinking about it, I was thinking that she set out from the campground with the idea. But it is more likely that it wasn't planned, that it was in reaction to having her secret found out. Hmmmm.

But yeah, what happened during those missing two hours? That's a lot of time to be drinking. Maybe she did stop, sober up some, but then stop again later for more alcohol. If she did smoke pot, she probably had to pull over to do that somewhere too - assuming she smoked a joint probably wanted to do it out of sight.

The 911 calls thing is SO weird, but I'm not sure what it means at all.

[AlohaRainbow]

That's right, I had forgotten about that. So if it wasn't her or her husband's van and her brother had given her permission to drive it, then it could potentially be a lawsuit against the brother's auto insurance and not hers and her husband's. That will depend on the language of both of their policies and state law. And if the brother had known her to drink but voluntarily gave her the keys, can he be sued personally?


IMO
sure the brother could be named in a suit. and the victims' families will probably try to show that the brother was aware that she sometimes drank, toked and drove. i've seen cases where the car manufaccturer is sued (alleging faulty design, faulty airbags, etc), car rental company (if the car is a rental, allegation would be that they didn't perform proper maintenance, upkeep), county or whoever is responsible for the condition of the road and/or intersection and any identifying traffic signs, and manufacturer of the tires on the vehicle, etc. [depends on the circumstances and the report/s of the accident reconstructionist].

in a fatal accident that occrred at an intersection, i've seen a homeowner get sued for not keeping the bushes and trees in front of their property trimmed (alleged that the foliage blocked the view of the intersection - they lived on the corner), as well as the utility compaines (electric, telephone and cable) who shared a utility pole near the intersection for allegedly obstructing the view at the intersection. in that case, the other drivier was an adult who was driving his father's pick up truck, so the driver and the father were named in the suit, as well as the county, who was responsbile for road maintenance.

and, i predict, almost everybody that is sued will counter-sue...

[Nellie]

Mr Schuler has lost a daughter, a wife (whether or not it was a good or bad marriage), three neices and has a son in critical condition. I doubt he gives a hoot or holler about a lawsuit at this point, or the house or anything but his family and is suffering the worse emotional pain.
Anyone as drunk as Ms Schuler in no way could be doing any kind of logical thinking or worrying about facing the family. I am surprised she did not pass out. I have no idea what she was doing but witnesses seem convinced she held steady in the fast line and that makes no sense. Sorry she did not hit one of those cars on the exit ramp before she killed those poor kids and people, destroyed the lives of her brother and wife and injured her son so criticaly.

Honestly....my heart goes out to this entire family, including Mr. Shuler.
This has to be a nightmare and the pain must be unbearable.
But, I must disagree that her husband doesn't give a hoot nor holler about a lawsuit.....immediately having a lawyer says otherwise. JMO

[daniel green]

This 911 not having any calls bothers me. I saw a Dateline or 48 Hrs not too long ago, about the kidnapping of a police officer's daughter and how she called 911 from the kidnapper's phone, several bystanders called 911, and they totally dropped the ball. It was tragic.

ETA: And it was a similar situation, that it crossed from one county to the next. But, tragically, her abductor passed several police cars AFTER the 911 calls, and to think they could have saved her is maddening.

[daniel green]

Mr. Schuler fears a lawsuit for third party negligence.

He also must be terrified of the CPS investigation.

imo

I agree. But there was something about his anger that really put me off.

[Nellie]

I agree. But there was something about his anger that really put me off.

I agree....it's his "dost protest too much" that makes me suspicious of what he knows.....and he did seem to be very angry...

[Hey Paula]

Her brother. sadly, did not call 911 until after the accident. She originally called him hours earlier.

And I'm beginning to think that the collision happened soon after the 911 calls came in from the witnesses and that there was not enough time for LE to respond.

If the 911 calls didn't come into Orange County, as reported, then the first 911 call must have come in when she was already in Westchester County and driving erratically. The accident happened soon after that.

imo

Her brother said he received a call from her about 1/2 hour before the crash. This should have placed her in the Yorktown Heights (Westchester County) vicinity at the time of the call.

Orange County is two counties north of Westchester and is preceded by Putnam County. I don't think the 911 calls would have come into Orange County.

IMO

[tv4me]

On NG some guy tried to say the kids would have known she was drinking! Maybe so, but they're not here to say! But, if they had a dvd player like many vans, I can tell you from personal experience that the kids could be glued to that and totally tune out anything else happening around them. So, I don't think it would have been hard for her to drink and the kids not know it.


The poor eldest girl seems to have known, or at least knew something was horribly wrong with her aunt. From what I understand, she called her dad and the call was cut off. (I'm thinking Auntie grabbed the phone from her niece.) Then he called back and talked to his sister. Not sure when the other two calls (Diane called her brother. He called her back) took place. Not sure if they happened after the niece called.

So was the child's call the first call made to Diane's brother?

Unfortunatley, I think the poor kids were scared witless while the car was going the wrong way. I imagine they were crying and screaming at Auntie to pull over and stop. I also think that they had to have been terrified for quite a while, so scared, that the eldest dared to call her dad to tell him something was wrong with her aunt. Wasn't that an hour to a half hour before the crash?

Edited to add....I somehow cut off the poster's name from the quote. I'm sorry, I can't remember who it was.

[shelkobe]

I would just like to interject my opinion on the matter of "vodka being elusive and unnoticeable"

I have an older relative who is an alcoholic and binge drinks, but occasionally sustains a "twilight" drunk. VODKA is VERY noticeable on the breath. It may not be as pungent as other forms of liquor, but it's certainly distinguishable - IMO. Especially when the body begins to "sweat" the booze out. It's very obvious and not as "secretive" as some make it out to be.

A person living with an alcoholic KNOWS. There is NO WAY this can be hidden. I also have a family member who drinks straight vodka in a water bottle or coffee cup, and when I get the kiss goodbye, I KNOW. There is no way this can be hidden from a family member.

ALL IMHO.
I went to see someone immediately after a car accident in the hospital. Without knowing anything beforehand, as soon as I saw the person I knew they were drinking because of whatever was sweating out of their pores. And speaking of pores, it was practically pouring out of their skin. I knew it was alcohol but because of my poor sense of smell, I could not smell the alcohol itself. It was most likely vodka, which in my opinion has no smell or a very weak smell to begin with (at least the vodkas I've had.)

I think your raising the point about sweating out the alcohol is a good one, but I'm not sure if most people know to look for something like that. I think a person could hide a drinking problem for quite awhile if they wanted to.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Honestly....my heart goes out to this entire family, including Mr. Shuler.
This has to be a nightmare and the pain must be unbearable.
But, I must disagree that her husband doesn't give a hoot nor holler about a lawsuit.....immediately having a lawyer says otherwise. JMOAbsolutely!

[Nellie]

The poor eldest girl seems to have known, or at least knew something was horribly wrong with her aunt. From what I understand, she called her dad and the call was cut off. (I'm thinking Auntie grabbed the phone from her niece.) Then he called back and talked to his sister. Not sure when the other two calls (Diane called her brother. He called her back) took place. Not sure if they happened after the niece called.

So was the child's call the first call made to Diane's brother?

Unfortunatley, I think the poor kids were scared witless while the car was going the wrong way. I imagine they were crying and screaming at Auntie to pull over and stop. I also think that they had to have been terrified for quite a while, so scared, that the eldest dared to call her dad to tell him something was wrong with her aunt. Wasn't that an hour to a half hour before the crash?

Edited to add....I somehow cut off the poster's name from the quote. I'm sorry, I can't remember who it was.

No problem....that would be me.
And we're on the same page. I agree with you. I think her aunt stopped her phone call too. It just makes me sick to think of the horror those poor children suffered.

[Lady_Jean_La]

This 911 not having any calls bothers me. I saw a Dateline or 48 Hrs not too long ago, about the kidnapping of a police officer's daughter and how she called 911 from the kidnapper's phone, several bystanders called 911, and they totally dropped the ball. It was tragic.

ETA: And it was a similar situation, that it crossed from one county to the next. But, tragically, her abductor passed several police cars AFTER the 911 calls, and to think they could have saved her is maddening.

Brings back memories of O.J. Simpson and his slow speed chase, where the police located him by his sell phone. And that was ancient technology by todays standards.

I guess eratic drivers are too common and a low priority by comparison.

imo

[Debb]

Ref: Eractic driving

I heard last night that the people who saw her driving once she was going the wrong way, said that she was driving straight and was not eratic. I know, it sounds crazy, so I must ask if she knew what she was doing and that driving the wrong way was done on purpose. Also, why throw your phone away unless you don't want to be tracked down or perhaps you don't want the kids getting it back and calling for help again. That women wasn't just drunk apparently, it sounds as if she was downright mean and hell bent on doing it her way.

[dgfred]

I'm wondering about that too. Don't y'all think she would have seen the other vehicle coming towards her... or the others that pulled over or went by her???

[R~O~S]

I'm wondering about that too. Don't y'all think she would have seen the other vehicle coming towards her... or the others that pulled over or went by her???

I said that straight off. She traveled 1.7 miles in the wrong direction. That's really not that far if there was no traffic, but if there was oncoming traffic she had to know, yet she didn't try to get to the shoulder or turn around.

Now we know there was traffic right from the get go, even before she actually got on the roadway, while on the ramp. Nearly two miles is a long way, she had ample opportunity to get to the side of the road and chose not to do so.

Were her reasoning skills so diminished she thought she was right and they were all wrong? Or was she hell bent on murder/suicide?

I don't find it strange she maintained her lane. I think Diane stopped with her drinking buddy often and was accustomed to driving under the influence. Drunks will ride the line when they have tunnel vision, as long as they have the line on the hood ornament or over the fender, they're in their lane. It's aiming not driving.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I'm wondering about that too. Don't y'all think she would have seen the other vehicle coming towards her... or the others that pulled over or went by her???There were early reports she hit another car and kept going, that indicates murder/suicide to me.

[Details]

Although, I doubt if "erratic drivers" is a low priority anymore, it was my gut reaction that the police put the reports of her driving on "low priority". At the very least, there should be a helicopter circling the area of jurisdiction to patrol and check out these claims. If spotted, the Helicopter Police can then direct the police ground cars to intercept the "erratic" drivers. I was also under the impression that there were 911 calls over the four hour driving route.Helicopters cost money, money the taxpayers do not wish to spend, and cannot cover that much space. They're only dispatched when there is an issue, and it takes a bit of time - preflight, get the pilots there, get the helicopter to where it belongs.

There's no Helicopter police always up in the air, and they're usually only for clear emergencies.

[Casecase]

I said that straight off. She traveled 1.7 miles in the wrong direction. That's really not that far if there was no traffic, but if there was oncoming traffic she had to know, yet she didn't try to get to the shoulder or turn around.

Now we know there was traffic right from the get go, even before she actually got on the roadway, while on the ramp. Nearly two miles is a long way, she had ample opportunity to get to the side of the road and chose not to do so.

Were her reasoning skills so diminished she thought she was right and they were all wrong? Or was she hell bent on murder/suicide?

I don't find it strange she maintained her lane. I think Diane stopped with her drinking buddy often and was accustomed to driving under the influence. Drunks will ride the line when they have tunnel vision, as long as they have the line on the hood ornament or over the fender, they're in their lane. It's aiming not driving.

I think her reasoning skills were diminished. Going back to the other story I posted upthread about the wrong-way crash in my area, that man also had a very high blood alcohol content and marijuana in his sytem, and he drove the wrong way for over 4 miles before his crash. Several drivers called 911 in that case, too, about the wrong-way driving but the police didn't get there in time.

It sounds like she was high and significantly intoxicated. Nothing she did would make sense to any of us because we're sitting here able to look at it completely sober.


IMO


IMO

[R~O~S]

I finally found a time-line. The first 911 call was made at 1:33PM - right before the crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Schuler

Wow, that poster did a lot of cross referencing. Quite a bit of work to put that together.

If accurate, it did indeed take Warren over 40 minutes to call LE. That's a long gosh darn time when you know your daughter is calling for your help & scared while your sister is not answering the phone. I have to believe he knew she wasn't acting rationally & it was very possible she was non compliant with his directive she stay put, otherwise there wouldn't have been several follow up calls that went unanswered.

[Details]

Wrong way for 4 miles, if he was going the speed limit - that's only 4 minutes. A minute for the 911 call, 30 seconds for dispatch, and a few minutes for police to get to the area - and they're still too late.


The more of these stories I read, the more I wish everyone had something like - what was the name of that anti-carjacking technology - where you can call up and they can not only find the car - but turn it off. Imagine if that was possible, and the brother could have requested it, or the police can request it for car chases, etc.

[cutiepatootie61]

I said that straight off. She traveled 1.7 miles in the wrong direction. That's really not that far if there was no traffic, but if there was oncoming traffic she had to know, yet she didn't try to get to the shoulder or turn around.

Now we know there was traffic right from the get go, even before she actually got on the roadway, while on the ramp. Nearly two miles is a long way, she had ample opportunity to get to the side of the road and chose not to do so.

Were her reasoning skills so diminished she thought she was right and they were all wrong? Or was she hell bent on murder/suicide?

I don't find it strange she maintained her lane. I think Diane stopped with her drinking buddy often and was accustomed to driving under the influence. Drunks will ride the line when they have tunnel vision, as long as they have the line on the hood ornament or over the fender, they're in their lane. It's aiming not driving.

Just wanted to add here, I am familiar with this parkway and the area that the accident occurred. I can guarantee you that on a Sunday early afternoon, this parkway had traffic. It is close to the city and a main means of transportation in that area, even for just local driving. There was plenty of traffic that should have tipped this woman off that she was driving the wrong direction. Also, the Pleasantville Road ramp that she chose to enter the Parkway is a one lane road, only enough room for one car at a time to exit the parkway. There were witnesses that had to drive the shoulder to avoid hitting her on this ramp. Even in my drunkest state of mind, (which wouldn't catch me behind the wheel, with kids no less) I would know I am going the wrong way because I know that road so well, as did she. There just isn't any explanation I can come up with other than intentional. moo

[Details]

I think she was wayyy too close to being flat out passed out drunk. Probably had tunnel vision, and barely saw the other cars.

[Casecase]

I think she was wayyy too close to being flat out passed out drunk. Probably had tunnel vision, and barely saw the other cars.


I agree - I think she was so far gone that she had no idea she was going the wrong way. It wouldn't matter if she had driven that road 1 time or 1,000 times - if she was significantly drunk and high, she may have had no concept of which direction she was going.


IMO

[dgfred]

It seems to me to be inching closer and closer to looking like a suicide venture... like maybe something/someone caused her to go over the edge, regardless of the children.

[Debb]

Has anyone seen the movie When A Man Loves A Woman? It's about a loving, sweet, mother and wife who is a serious alcoholic. She puts her children's lives at risk. She admits to drinking when out with her baby and leaving the baby at the dry cleaners she was so out of it. Whe she got home couldn't remember where she left the baby. She also physically abuses the children.

Those around her knew, but acted as if they didn't. The movie explains how enabling alcoholics can be very dangerous.

I was glad to hear last night on NG that CPS is investigating the father to protect son's safety before he goes home.

[R~O~S]

(respectfully snipped)

The story of Ms Schuler being on the extreme right hand lane makes me think that possibly she thought she was in two way traffic on a two lane road. I dunno.


She knew the road well, she traveled it nearly every seasonal weekend for literally years.

[henry]

which road are you talking about ros? the taconic . . . or sawmill parkway . . . or some other road?

the sawmill is a much more treacherous road & is the main parkway to get in & out of the city . . . 2 lanes with no breakdown, very congested, traffic lights, numerous entrance & exit ramps . . . my point being is that it's a much more difficult road to drive as compared to the taconic.

[R~O~S]

which road are you talking about ros? the taconic . . . or sawmill parkway . . . or some other road?

the sawmill is a much more treacherous road & is the main parkway to get in & out of the city . . . 2 lanes with no breakdown, very congested, traffic lights, numerous entrance & exit ramps . . . my point being is that it's a much more difficult road to drive as compared to the taconic.

The Taconic, the one she headed the wrong way and eventually crashed on.

According to the articles, she forced cars off to the shoulder entering and had oncoming traffic swerving to avoid her the entire 1.7 miles she was traveling in the wrong direction.

She should have known right from the exit ramp she used as an on ramp that she was on the wrong side of the road.

[cutiepatootie61]

The Taconic, the one she headed the wrong way and eventually crashed on.

According to the articles, she forced cars off to the shoulder entering and had oncoming traffic swerving to avoid her the entire 1.7 miles she was traveling in the wrong direction.

She should have known right from the exit ramp she used as an on ramp that she was on the wrong side of the road.

Not only that, but driving the direction that she was, you can clearly see over the median to the "right way" flow of traffic. If the cars coming at her didn't tip her off, she should have taken note of the cars driving in the same direction across the median. The Taconic is an extension of the Saw Mill Pkwy. That part of the Taconic is heavily traveled, it's not as though she was traveling in eastbejesus upstate NY. moo

[PBJMOM4]

I'm curious...
Has it been stated in any article or Police mention the speed of the car while she was driving erratically on the Taconic?

[henry]

Not only that, but driving the direction that she was, you can clearly see over the median to the "right way" flow of traffic. If the cars coming at her didn't tip her off, she should have taken note of the cars driving in the same direction across the median. The Taconic is an extension of the Saw Mill Pkwy. That part of the Taconic is heavily traveled, it's not as though she was traveling in eastbejesus upstate NY. moo

yup, there's an enormous grassy median between north & southbound on the taconic . . . but the taconic is not an extension of the saw mill parkway . . . the saw mill pretty much goes northeast and cuts thru chappaqua & mt. kisco . . . the taconic is a lightly travelled road, imo . . . especially north of white plains (where the taconic is the sprain brook parkway)

from what i've read, she should have known she was going the wrong way when she got on the saw mill north . . . that's the wrong way to long island! so i'm guessing she never travelled the saw mill north or the taconic . . . if she were on her way home . . . imo

[lunchlady]

I'm wondering about the time delay between leaving McDonald's and the wreck. It's over 2 hours, closer to 3 hours, right? Did she take the kids somewhere and for some reason drank a bunch of vodka? Stop at a friend's house and smoke pot and then swig the vodka too?
Maybe the 5 year old can tell more when he gets better, but 5 year olds don't always tell a story clearly, and who knows if he remembers much after the big crash.

[Lady_Jean_La]

It seems to me to be inching closer and closer to looking like a suicide venture... like maybe something/someone caused her to go over the edge, regardless of the children.Not just suicide which would be sad...but murder. Those she should have loved and total strangers. How horrid. imo

[daniel green]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915467,00.html?iid=tsmodule

[daniel green]

The Bastardis and Hances getting together. Who is not joining them? Mr Schuler.

[n/t]

I just read on a google search of Diane Schuler ithat the little boy has left the hospital. Hospital says he is no longer listed as a patient and will give out not information.

Poor kid. I pray he will recover psychologically from this. He'll need a lot of therapy to cope with the loss. He lost his mom, his sister and 3 cousins not to metion the horror he witnessed.

:crying:

[StickyBeak]

I still cannot wrap my brain around this tragedy. This woman, held in high regard by her family and co workers, just snapped?
In her care, her own children and those of her own brother?
Did she just decide to drink herself into oblivion while driving and end it all?
I guess when you equate the parents who kill their children in a fit of rage while on drugs/booze whatever, you just get use to hearing it.
In this case, I am still stunned. Who knew. Cold hearted out and out Murder, disregard for human life, depraved indifference if you will.
My heart aches for what those children were aware of before their death. Just Horrible. All my opinion.

[cutiepatootie61]

Poor kid. I pray he will recover psychologically from this. He'll need a lot of therapy to cope with the loss. He lost his mom, his sister and 3 cousins not to metion the horror he witnessed.

:crying:

I pray he has no memory of the nightmare he was a part of..... Hopefully he recovers fully and quickly and is able to begin healing his psychological wounds.

[Lady_Jean_La]

The Bastardis and Hances getting together. Who is not joining them? Mr Schuler.
I imagine on his lawyer's advice.

[Jester]

Poor kid. I pray he will recover psychologically from this. He'll need a lot of therapy to cope with the loss. He lost his mom, his sister and 3 cousins not to metion the horror he witnessed.

:crying:

Five years old, watching slurring drunk mom throw her phone out the window after saying she maybe shouldn't drive (to her brother), get behind the wheel, and start weaving in and out of oncoming traffic for 1.7 miles ... imagine what the children were thinking watching that unfold.

He only has his dad now, and dad seems to be a bit of a wash. Dad either didn't know that his wife was a pot smoking alcoholic at noon while caring for children (unlikely given later admissions), or he's really scared of the insurance settlement.

I heard that two of the families were suing ... does that mean the cousins parents are suing, or were there two families in the other vehicle?

[giraffe]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/08/12/2009-08-12_can_daniel_schuler_lose_home_assets_because_of_ taconic_crash_what_victims_f_can_.html

Daniel Schuler lost his wife, daughter and three nieces in last month’s wrong-way Taconic crash. Now that the Yonkers families of the victims who lost their lives are weighing a lawsuit, could he lose his home, too, even though he wasn’t behind the wheel of the ill-fated minivan?

“You can’t sue a dead person, but you can sue the person’s estate,” says Paul Moretti, family law expert on JustAnswer. “If there is a lawsuit pending against the estate, that would have to be paid before any of the heirs could get money from the estate.”

[giraffe]

The tragic Taconic crash has destroyed families in more ways than one.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

The father of the three girls who were killed when their aunt drove drunk and high the wrong way on the Taconic State Parkway has severed all ties to the woman’s husband, according to the New York Post.

The girls’ father, William Hance, is not only angry that driver Diane Schuler was downing vodka and smoking pot while driving, but also that her husband Daniel Schuler -- and his high-profile lawyer Dominic Barbara -- have developed a bizarre series of medical excuses to explain her unforgivable behavior, according to the paper.

The Hances have rather formed a relationship with the family of the strangers who were also killed when Diane Schuler slammed into their car – father and son Michael and Guy Bastardi

[lunchlady]

The tragic Taconic crash has destroyed families in more ways than one.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

The father of the three girls who were killed when their aunt drove drunk and high the wrong way on the Taconic State Parkway has severed all ties to the woman’s husband, according to the New York Post.

The girls’ father, William Hance, is not only angry that driver Diane Schuler was downing vodka and smoking pot while driving, but also that her husband Daniel Schuler -- and his high-profile lawyer Dominic Barbara -- have developed a bizarre series of medical excuses to explain her unforgivable behavior, according to the paper.

The Hances have rather formed a relationship with the family of the strangers who were also killed when Diane Schuler slammed into their car – father and son Michael and Guy Bastardi

Wow, the lawyering-up sure is happening fast. I can understand the affinity of the Hance and Bastardi families, but for the sake of the 5 year old the Schuler and Hance families need to have some sort of relationship in the future. Maybe that will take years to redevelop.

This is shaping up as another DUI tragedy, in spite of Daniel's objections. MADD and other organizations should comment at some point.

[Lavinia]

He is going to have terrible survivor guilt - especially if his uncle has nothing further to do with him because of what happened... and because of how his father is handling it.

Hopefully it is explained to the young boy in a way that he understands the problem doesn't lie with him, but that people are grieving and they are grieving in a way that can't include the rest of the family at the time.

[Jester]

The tragic Taconic crash has destroyed families in more ways than one.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

The father of the three girls who were killed when their aunt drove drunk and high the wrong way on the Taconic State Parkway has severed all ties to the woman’s husband, according to the New York Post.

The girls’ father, William Hance, is not only angry that driver Diane Schuler was downing vodka and smoking pot while driving, but also that her husband Daniel Schuler -- and his high-profile lawyer Dominic Barbara -- have developed a bizarre series of medical excuses to explain her unforgivable behavior, according to the paper.

The Hances have rather formed a relationship with the family of the strangers who were also killed when Diane Schuler slammed into their car – father and son Michael and Guy Bastardi

Thanks for the update on how the families are managing.
What a tragedy.

[R~O~S]

This article is dated yesterday, but I don't remember seeing it posted. One of our posters heard a news report that young Brian had been released from the hospital. He has, but he was sent to a re-hab:

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/sources-security-video-shows-schuler-acting-normally-1.1362085

Bryan, who was treated at Westchester Medical Center for two weeks, is now recovering at St. Mary's Hospital for Children in Bayside, Queens, a St. Mary's spokeswoman said Tuesday. "He's here for rehabilitation and continued recovery," said the spokeswoman, Leslie Johnson.

I'm glad he's not home just yet, it will not be as obvious to him that there's some kind of family trouble in addition to everything else. Of course, he may not remember anything at all yet & therefore may not even realize his mom, sister & cousins are gone.


I'm not certain of the correct spelling of his first name, I've seen it spelled both ways in the media.

[Kip]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned as I've only skimmed over some of these many posts, but in the comments after one of the articles I read, some posters suggested that this woman might have been experiencing delirium tremens.

From wikipedia: Delirium tremens is caused after a long period of drinking, stopping abruptly and experiencing withdrawal. It may also be triggered by head injury, infection, or illness in people with a history of heavy use of alcohol.....The main symptoms are confusion, diarrhea, disorientation and agitation and other signs of severe autonomic instability (fever, tachycardia, hypertension). Other common symptoms include intense perceptual disturbance such as visions of insects, snakes or rats (or stereotypically, pink elephants or tiny figures). These may be hallucinations, or illusions related to the environment,.....

It was suggested that she may have gone off with the kids with no intention of drinking. Maybe she was smoking pot to help allay the alcohol cravings. She starts experiencing alcohol withdrawal/DTs and purchases and drinks vodka to try to stop the withdrawal symptoms, which by this time, only makes the situation worse.

[taylor63]

I still cannot wrap my brain around this tragedy. This woman, held in high regard by her family and co workers, just snapped?
In her care, her own children and those of her own brother?
Did she just decide to drink herself into oblivion while driving and end it all?
I guess when you equate the parents who kill their children in a fit of rage while on drugs/booze whatever, you just get use to hearing it.
In this case, I am still stunned. Who knew. Cold hearted out and out Murder, disregard for human life, depraved indifference if you will.
My heart aches for what those children were aware of before their death. Just Horrible. All my opinion.

The exact same thing happened with Andrea Yates another mother who killed her kids. Everyone who knew her said she was a great mom, and a nice lady. Alot of times the families, and people who know these killers say they are the last person they thought would be capable of such a horrible thing.

[taylor63]

He is going to have terrible survivor guilt - especially if his uncle has nothing further to do with him because of what happened... and because of how his father is handling it.

I thought of the same thing. I almost very saddened and very concerned for this poor little child. I hope he gets lots of counseling, and most of all alot of love and protection in the next few months.

[lunchlady]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned as I've only skimmed over some of these many posts, but in the comments after one of the articles I read, some posters suggested that this woman might have been experiencing delirium tremens.

From wikipedia: Delirium tremens is caused after a long period of drinking, stopping abruptly and experiencing withdrawal. It may also be triggered by head injury, infection, or illness in people with a history of heavy use of alcohol.....The main symptoms are confusion, diarrhea, disorientation and agitation and other signs of severe autonomic instability (fever, tachycardia, hypertension). Other common symptoms include intense perceptual disturbance such as visions of insects, snakes or rats (or stereotypically, pink elephants or tiny figures). These may be hallucinations, or illusions related to the environment,.....

It was suggested that she may have gone off with the kids with no intention of drinking. Maybe she was smoking pot to help allay the alcohol cravings. She starts experiencing alcohol withdrawal/DTs and purchases and drinks vodka to try to stop the withdrawal symptoms, which by this time, only makes the situation worse.

Good call! This makes a lot of sense.
Start off the trip, feeling lousy , put some vodka in the McDonald's soda cup, hair of the dog, get back on the road, thinking you'll feel better soon. Stop at a rest stop, still hoping to feel better soon, pour more vodka in the cup, puff another joint to calm the nerves, back on the road again. Always gotten home before, just keep moving forward.
Start to feel pretty weird, just want to get home, keep driving, few more swigs off the bottle, getting late and the phone is starting to ring a lot, throw it out the window, keep driving, lose all touch with reality, ignore screaming children, CRASH.

[BOZGAL2]

The tragic Taconic crash has destroyed families in more ways than one.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

The father of the three girls who were killed when their aunt drove drunk and high the wrong way on the Taconic State Parkway has severed all ties to the woman’s husband, according to the New York Post.

The girls’ father, William Hance, is not only angry that driver Diane Schuler was downing vodka and smoking pot while driving, but also that her husband Daniel Schuler -- and his high-profile lawyer Dominic Barbara -- have developed a bizarre series of medical excuses to explain her unforgivable behavior, according to the paper.

The Hances have rather formed a relationship with the family of the strangers who were also killed when Diane Schuler slammed into their car – father and son Michael and Guy Bastardi

TFS this update.
All I can say is 'its about time'.

[Ninja108]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915467,00.html?iid=tsmodule

I noted one mom complained that in this article that if it had been a father, he wouldn't have been crucified as much but because Diane was a mother she is being roundly condemned and cruficified.
Maybe that mom is right but in the same breath, if it had been the father who had drove drunk and killed everyone, no one would even THINK to write an article like this. http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/08/12/diane_schuler/index.html

Women may get condemned sometimes when they commit horrible crimes but they also get articles like those above, articles that are almost never written when men commit crimes.

[Lavinia]

Except for the fact that those "TREMORS" as in hands and body shaking violently are caused by Alcohol WITHDRAWL and this woman was drinking alcohol steadly. Marijuana is not a "calmer" for folks shaking from head to foot with their alcohol withdrawl tremors. The people in alcohol withdrawl can't keep their hands steady let alone drive a car. BTW, DT is an all out Emergency and without a sip of booze or Librium can be fatal. This women had the equivelant of ten shots of alcohol in her blood stream chemistry and 6gm of undigested alcohol in her stomach.

ITA, ABC. Her level of alcohol would have been an immediate "cure" for any DT's she could have had, too.

[n/t]

The tragic Taconic crash has destroyed families in more ways than one.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

The father of the three girls who were killed when their aunt drove drunk and high the wrong way on the Taconic State Parkway has severed all ties to the woman’s husband, according to the New York Post.

The girls’ father, William Hance, is not only angry that driver Diane Schuler was downing vodka and smoking pot while driving, but also that her husband Daniel Schuler -- and his high-profile lawyer Dominic Barbara -- have developed a bizarre series of medical excuses to explain her unforgivable behavior, according to the paper.

The Hances have rather formed a relationship with the family of the strangers who were also killed when Diane Schuler slammed into their car – father and son Michael and Guy Bastardi

It's all so so sad. In a way, I feel for the husband. Not only did he lose his wife and daughter but he could be facing lawsuits and potentially lose his home. And now his SIL and BIL want nothing to do with him.

However, I also understand the Hance's side. They lost 3 precious daughters, sister and niece and they see this circus being played out by Schuler's lawyer. I'm sure they must be furious with the BS. I wish Schuler would be upfront with them and stay united for Bryan's sake.

I don't know. I just feel terribly sorry for all of them. I wouldn't wish this on my worse enemy.

:sad:

[n/t]

Five years old, watching slurring drunk mom throw her phone out the window after saying she maybe shouldn't drive (to her brother), get behind the wheel, and start weaving in and out of oncoming traffic for 1.7 miles ... imagine what the children were thinking watching that unfold.

He only has his dad now, and dad seems to be a bit of a wash. Dad either didn't know that his wife was a pot smoking alcoholic at noon while caring for children (unlikely given later admissions), or he's really scared of the insurance settlement.

I heard that two of the families were suing ... does that mean the cousins parents are suing, or were there two families in the other vehicle?

I believe there were 2 families in the other vehicle. A father and son and a friend.

Not sure if the Hance's will be suing. I don't think they should, imo. His sister was responsible for this. :crying:

[Nellie]

ABC, I don't think anyone said (Or I missed it) that she was experiencing tremors when she had the wreck.

I think it's VERY plausible that she was experiencing tremors earlier, and that's what caused her to pull out an emergency bottle of vodka she had stored away in case she couldn't make it through the camping trip without alcohol. THAT sounds like someone caught in the hell of alcoholism, who tells themselves they can do it, they can get through this without a drink, but stows a bottle under the seat in case they start to experience DTs.

By all accounts this was a functioning woman. NOT the kind who would willingly get in a car with children and drink recreationally in the morning.

A BAC calculator I looked up on the net shows you would get .19 drinking 7 beers in 4 hours. For an experienced alcoholic, that's not that much to cause her symptoms. BUT, maybe smoking pot on top of that - no indication that she does that all that often - might cause what happened.

This is horrible and tragic all round. I just don't think this is as it appears to some - that this mother got in the car intending to drink herself into a stupor for no reason.

It just sounds plausible that she was trying to quit, and got caught in withdrawal.

Whether she intended to drink herself into a stupor doesn't really matter. She did it and in the process destroyed so many lives.
No excuse good enough!

[n/t]

Whether she intended to drink herself into a stupor doesn't really matter. She did it and in the process destroyed so many lives.
No excuse good enough!

I agree Nellie. If she was feeling ill, she should've called 911 and those poor children would've been alive today.

There's no excuse.

[Details]

...Not sure if the Hance's will be suing. I don't think they should, imo. His sister was responsible for this. :crying:Why should that change anything?

He is not his sister. He didn't cause this. To sue her estate for what she was responsible for is a reasonable thing to do.

[n/t]

Why should that change anything?

He is not his sister. He didn't cause this. To sue her estate for what she was responsible for is a reasonable thing to do.

Why should the husband and Hance's nephew be punished for her selfish, irresponsible behaviour?

She made the choice to drink and drive. Not the husband.

[R~O~S]

Why should the husband and Hance's nephew be punished for her selfish, irresponsible behaviour?

She made the choice to drink and drive. Not the husband.

Suing her estate is not suing the husband or the nephew. Let's face it, this family just incurred about $30K in debt, just for the final arrangements never mind the car. Then there's the small matter of when will these people be emotionally ready to actually face the work life functionally.

It's bad enough they've lost their daughters, are they really expected to take the financial hit for what Diane did? I don't think so.

[BOZGAL2]

JVM is covering the case now and the new developments.

[n/t]

Suing her estate is not suing the husband or the nephew. Let's face it, this family just incurred about $30K in debt, just for the final arrangements never mind the car. Then there's the small matter of when will these people be emotionally ready to actually face the work life functionally.

It's bad enough they've lost their daughters, are they really expected to take the financial hit for what Diane did? I don't think so.

Wouldn't her estate involve property, like the house they both lived in with their children and other assets? Wouldn't suing her estate ultimately be taking away from the husband and her surviving son?

[daniel green]

The lawyer for the family of two of the eight people killed in the horrific crash on New York's Taconic State Parkway "categorically" rejected the idea that the fatal crash was caused by a stroke-like attack or other medical emergency suffered by the wrong-way driver, Diane Schuler. Families wrestle with knowledge that Diane Schuler was drunk and high."This is a killing. Don't call it an accident," Irving Anolik, attorney for the Bastardi family who lost a father and son in the wreck, told "Good Morning America." Anolik said that any medical condition theories are "at war with the autopsy report, with the blood analysis, with the whole panorama of things that surround this killing."

According to autopsy and toxicology reports, Schuler had been driving with more than twice the legal limit of alcohol in her system -- about 10 drinks were in her stomach -- and had traces of marijuana in her system.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/MindMoodNews/story?id=8309138&page=1

[Details]

Why should the husband and Hance's nephew be punished for her selfish, irresponsible behaviour?

She made the choice to drink and drive. Not the husband.He lost 3 children - I think on the scale of who is getting punished worst - he wins.

It's not to punish the husband - it's a claim on her estate. Although - if the husband knew ANYTHING of his wife's problems - he might be justifiably involved. And yes, that will hurt the little boy. You cannot let people off the hook, expect the father of three dead children take all of the financial impact, just because it will hurt someone else. Every time even a mere thief is arrested, those he supported, those who loved him are punished, effectively as well. So - do we stop punishing everyone who has a child or spouse?


However - what I was objecting to was the notion that because it was HIS sister, he couldn't sue - sounded like an implication that he carried some guilt for merely sharing the bloodline. I don't believe in that medieval sensibility.

[R~O~S]

Wouldn't her estate involve property, like the house they both lived in with their children and other assets? Wouldn't suing her estate ultimately be taking away from the husband and her surviving son?

It will indeed mean that Diane's share of the house will be subject to lien. Daniel may be able to put off the lien until he chooses to sell the house, or he may need to take an equity loan to satisfy it.

Are you suggesting the victims should take the hit? Seriously, if someone devastates your life to this degree, I'm afraid it's beyond the realm to expect them to absorb the financial loss as well. It was Diane's accident, her estate is responsible for the financial loss to others. If they had comprehensive coverage, that may cover it, if they didn't, it was Daniel's poor planning, again not the fault of the victims.

[R~O~S]

10 drinks were in her STOMACH? Is that a misprint/misunderstanding on the part of the media? If it's true, that's suicide. BAC of .19 AND an additional 10 drinks guzzled undigested is suicide.

6 grams of undigested vodka, I don't think that's 10 drinks.

[Details]

Well, reading Post #775, its all about Delerium TREMORS which is an event that occurs when long time users have an abrupt alcohol WITHDRAWL. No, a blood alcohol of 0.19 is to much for anyone and I am surprised she did not pass out. People die of alcohol poisoning. The Coroner said her BAC was equivelant to 10 shots of alcohol.Yes - and - how do alcoholics cure DTs?

With more alcohol.

Thus - the DTs, from a withdrawal - let's say because she couldn't find privacy to drink on the family vacaction are step 1 - happening well before the accident.

Step 2 is that she drinks to cure the DTs.

Do you get it now? DT's lead to drinking, which leads to a 0.19 BAC.

It's a plausible theory.

[Details]

Wouldn't her estate involve property, like the house they both lived in with their children and other assets? Wouldn't suing her estate ultimately be taking away from the husband and her surviving son?And not suing the estate is taking away from the parents who just lost 3 children. I'd imagine they'd trade anything to have a surviving daughter.

The estate will represent the killer's half of their belongings. Yes, that will be some shared assets. She killed their children. She caused this burden on them, crushed them. A lawsuit is how this financial burden inflicted on them will be paid back - in small part, no doubt.

[baywench]

He lost 3 children - I think on the scale of who is getting punished worst - he wins.

It's not to punish the husband - it's a claim on her estate. Although - if the husband knew ANYTHING of his wife's problems - he might be justifiably involved. And yes, that will hurt the little boy. You cannot let people off the hook, expect the father of three dead children take all of the financial impact, just because it will hurt someone else. Every time even a mere thief is arrested, those he supported, those who loved him are punished, effectively as well. So - do we stop punishing everyone who has a child or spouse?


However - what I was objecting to was the notion that because it was HIS sister, he couldn't sue - sounded like an implication that he carried some guilt for merely sharing the bloodline. I don't believe in that medieval sensibility.


I agree completely. I think the husband still has much music to face. The little boy must be protected at all cost. There must be a thorough investigatin of the family and particularly of their lifestyle. jmo

[R~O~S]

Yes - and - how do alcoholics cure DTs?

With more alcohol.

Thus - the DTs, from a withdrawal - let's say because she couldn't find privacy to drink on the family vacaction are step 1 - happening well before the accident.

Step 2 is that she drinks to cure the DTs.

Do you get it now? DT's lead to drinking, which leads to a 0.19 BAC.

It's a plausible theory.

It is, except she wasn't shaky or acting oddly at the McDonalds. I really don't think it was drinking to resolve the DT's.

Drunks don't need privacy to drink, I've known co-workers who have a little spice in that travel mug of coffee first thing in the morning.

If Diane was suffering from the DT's it was because she forgot to bring the bottle from home, which I don't really believe. She would have run to the store for one thing or another. Milk, sugar, butter, bread for the kids breakfast are always handy excuses. IMO

[Details]

I agree completely. I think the husband still has much music to face. The little boy must be protected at all cost. There must be a thorough investigatin of the family and particularly of their lifestyle. jmoThe little boy, the parents of the girls, the families of those in the other car that was hit - they are the victims here. And hopefully the husband - but maybe not so much if he knew, and let it happen.

I think if she had the DTs - it might well have been just after leaving.

I'm also not convinced McD's would have seen much. They've got too many people coming through to notice anyone all that much. Some tremors, addressed with a first drink, then another at McD's to make sure they don't come back, then another because the first drinks want company and you're already compromised....

Their staff has to take your order and deliver it as fast as possible, with parents harried with kids, teenagers, rush, rush, rush. A Klingon having a seizure could likely go through at rush hour and be missed. She'd have to be having very major issues to be noticed.

[n/t]

He lost 3 children - I think on the scale of who is getting punished worst - he wins.

It's not to punish the husband - it's a claim on her estate. Although - if the husband knew ANYTHING of his wife's problems - he might be justifiably involved. And yes, that will hurt the little boy. You cannot let people off the hook, expect the father of three dead children take all of the financial impact, just because it will hurt someone else. Every time even a mere thief is arrested, those he supported, those who loved him are punished, effectively as well. So - do we stop punishing everyone who has a child or spouse?


However - what I was objecting to was the notion that because it was HIS sister, he couldn't sue - sounded like an implication that he carried some guilt for merely sharing the bloodline. I don't believe in that medieval sensibility.

Of course he can sue and you totally misinterpreted my post. If you go back, I said I feel sorry for all of them and I also said that I hoped he didn't sue.

No amount of money will ever bring those children back. No amount of money will erase what has happened. They will have to live with this tragedy for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with medieval sensibility.

I can't imagine the pain he is going through. Not only did his children die, his sister killed them. What will it do to sue her estate? Get a few bucks? How much money is worth the lives of 3 beautiful girls? 1 million, 2 million, 10 million? Do you think that'll make him feel better? I think not.

Sometimes it's not always about money.

Like I said in my post. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I think it would absolutely destroy me if my sister or brother was responsible for killing my children.

[R~O~S]

Of course he can sue and you totally misinterpreted my post. If you go back, I said I feel sorry for all of them and I also said that I hoped he didn't sue.

No amount of money will ever bring those children back. No amount of money will erase what has happened. They will have to live with this tragedy for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with medieval sensibility.

I can't imagine the pain he is going through. Not only did his children die, his sister killed them. What will it do to sue her estate? Get a few bucks? How much money is worth the lives of 3 beautiful girls? 1 million, 2 million, 10 million? Do you think that'll make him feel better? I think not.

Sometimes it's not always about money.

Like I said in my post. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I think it would absolutely destroy me if my sister or brother was responsible for killing my children.

I think if you had to ask the public for donations to put them to rest it might hurt just a bit more. He has a valid claim, he shouldn't have to beg for money just to put them away properly.

We're not even talking about true loss here, there is at minimum $30K in final expenses alone.

[n/t]

I think if you had to ask the public for donations to put them to rest it might hurt just a bit more. He has a valid claim, he shouldn't have to beg for money just to put them away properly.

We're not even talking about true loss here, there is at minimum $30K in final expenses alone.

I would hope Daniel would have the heart to help out and avoid having to be sued by his BIL. It would only cause more pain and heartache for all involved.

[R~O~S]

I would hope Daniel would have the heart to help out and avoid having to be sued by his BIL. It would only cause more pain and heartache for all involved.


Oh for heaven sakes, he's not suing Daniel, he's suing the estate and with it the liability insurance, which would probably cover it unless they go for damages outside of the financial loss.

Did you really want to see Daniel have to pay out of pocket what the insurance carrier is going to pay given Daniel has paid the premiums just for that insurance.

OTOH, if Daniel knew, he should sue the pants off him and it won't have any impact on Brian because Daniel will no longer have custody of him.

[ish]

I think there is something hinky with this story.

A closet alcoholic does not phone someone in their family and tell them that they feel disoriented and can't see right.. That would sort of defeat the whole "closet" issue..

I think there is something that the police are missing.

ETA : I was thinking about this last night, as I was driving. I had a bottle of vodka and a bottle of wine behind my seat. They weren't for me. I had picked them up for a friend who was having a dinner party. I was thinking, that since on the rare occasion that I do drink, I either drink wine or vodka, that people would automatically assume that I was drinking if there was an accident and those bottles were found. I then started thinking about what if I had an underlying medical condition that I wasn't aware of that would cause me to drive irrationally and test positive for THC and alcohol.. No one would ever know the truth.

maybe she pulled off the road cause she was woozy and was trying to sober up, the niece may have called her dad, and told him the aunt was "sick" niece then puts aunt on the phone with her daddy and he tells her to stay put, maybe he suspects she's drunk, they argue, she tosses the phone so niece can't call or answer it and takes off, both angry and drunk.

[daniel green]

It is, except she wasn't shaky or acting oddly at the McDonalds. I really don't think it was drinking to resolve the DT's.

snipped

Of course not. Has anyone else seen anyone in the DT's? I have seen them in jail and in homes of children I've worked with, and lemme tell you, it would have been obvious at McD's.

I mean, the autopsy results are quite clear. Drunk and having used marijuana in the last 15 mins.

[daniel green]

I agree completely. I think the husband still has much music to face. The little boy must be protected at all cost. There must be a thorough investigatin of the family and particularly of their lifestyle. jmo

I agree, baywench, and good to see you!!!!

[R~O~S]

Of course not. Has anyone else seen anyone in the DT's? I have seen them in jail and in homes of children I've worked with, and lemme tell you, it would have been obvious at McD's.

I mean, the autopsy results are quite clear. Drunk and having used marijuana in the last 15 mins.

The prospects for someone suffering the DT's having the ability or presence of mind to roll a joint, or hold a pipe steady enough to fill it without the contents being all over the car, are zilch.

Diane's condition at McDonalds is not left to the memory of those working there. The surveillance tapes confirm what the workers remembers and told LE, she was behaving normally while there. She wasn't having any difficulty with walking or managing the children, the order or the purchase.

[daniel green]

The prospects for someone suffering the DT's having the ability or presence of mind to roll a joint, or hold a pipe steady enough to fill it without the contents being all over the car, are zilch.

Diane's condition at McDonalds is not left to the memory of those working there. The surveillance tapes confirm what the workers remembers and told LE, she was behaving normally while there. She wasn't having any difficulty with walking or managing the children, the order or the purchase.

Yeah, zilch is right.

I, too, wondered about that, ROS, why it would have been left to the employees' memories or notice when they had tapes.

Odd.

[ish]

10 drinks were in her STOMACH? Is that a misprint/misunderstanding on the part of the media? If it's true, that's suicide. BAC of .19 AND an additional 10 drinks guzzled undigested is suicide.

Just how big was this vodka bottle, the one that the family had a long time. The one that frugal Diane carried back and forth weekly to the campsite. What couple who rarely drink, bring an old bottle of vodka on the weekly camping trip anyway. they can't go an evening or two a week without a nightcap, especially when they have 5 kids along with them.
Sorry, I'm not buying the occasional drink story. I think both of them were drinkers, big time, probably able to hold their liquor to the point it wasn't noticable to others. My brother can down a 12 pack in an afternoon and except for the smell on him you'd never think he was impaired, another brother rarely drinks and after 3-4 beers he is noticably drunk. I think they had an argument about something and she started downing the booze, maybe she wasn't drunk when she got to Mickey D's but while sitting there having breakfast whatever she had drunk worked its way into her system and she downed somemore as they left and it was downhill from there. I think she pulled over to sober up and the niece called her father.

[R~O~S]

Yeah, zilch is right.

I, too, wondered about that, ROS, why it would have been left to the employees' memories or notice when they had tapes.

Odd.

I think it just took time for them to review them. I believe the article came out yesterday, possibly the day before confirming the tapes back up the employee accounts. It is posted here, I'll try to find it.

[daniel green]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

[need2no]

6 grams of undigested vodka, I don't think that's 10 drinks.



A standard drink contains 10 grams of alcohol. However the size of a ‘standard’ drink can vary according to the type of alcohol. The size of a drink served in some hotels, restaurants or even at home may be much bigger than a ‘standard’ drink.


http://www.livelifewell.nsw.gov.au/livelifewell/alcohol/too_much.html

So she apparently had less than the equivalent of one 'standard' drink undigested in her stomach.

[daniel green]

This example is extreme because it shows the final chapter of alcohol and drug abuse in it's most horrific, high relief. Imagine the sense of helplessness and confusion of those children in their final moments of life, riding with a mother/aunt, someone they loved and trusted, drunk and out of control. (Or maybe, like so many children who ride in the back seat with a drunk parent at the wheel, myself included, they just learned to look out the window and get lost in the world passing by.) Imagine the pain of the family members of the children who were killed and that of the families of the innocent passengers of the SUV that Schuler, in her stupor, plowed into. The truth is, it's too horrible to imagine and it is too close to the bone, it just plain affects too many of us. That is why this issue of addiction is such a tough thing to talk about. Even as I write this I want to apologize for saying something so upsetting. But then I remember the cardinal lesson that I learned growing up with addiction. It's that all too often it's the person who says there is a problem who gets in trouble, not the person who is the problem. Saying that there is something that's wrong becomes the sin, not doing it

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-tian-dayton/diane-schuler-the-sad-leg_b_251835.html

[need2no]

Just how big was this vodka bottle, the one that the family had a long time. The one that frugal Diane carried back and forth weekly to the campsite. What couple who rarely drink, bring an old bottle of vodka on the weekly camping trip anyway. they can't go an evening or two a week without a nightcap, especially when they have 5 kids along with them.
Sorry, I'm not buying the occasional drink story. I think both of them were drinkers, big time, probably able to hold their liquor to the point it wasn't noticable to others. My brother can down a 12 pack in an afternoon and except for the smell on him you'd never think he was impaired, another brother rarely drinks and after 3-4 beers he is noticably drunk. I think they had an argument about something and she started downing the booze, maybe she wasn't drunk when she got to Mickey D's but while sitting there having breakfast whatever she had drunk worked its way into her system and she downed somemore as they left and it was downhill from there. I think she pulled over to sober up and the niece called her father.


From what I read it was a 1.75 liter bottle of Absolut Vodka found underneath debris of the mini van. I haven't heard/read the proof of the Vodka.
I can't even imagine a 'social drinker' throwing back 10 drinks in 4 1/2 hours without getting sick, let alone adding THC to the mix. I've also NEVER heard of a 'social drinker' drinking early in the morning.

IIRC Diane went to McDonald's shortly after she left the campsite at 9am. Even if she'd only had one, or even 2 drinks at that point if she was a regular drinker it would likely not be noticable, IMO. So my guess would be she had just started drinking, or she could handle her liquor due to being a regular drinker.

[SavannahStar]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Taconic-Crash-Severs-Family-Ties-53032767.html

The girls' father is the deceased woman's brother, right? And Daniel's brother-in-law?

Sorry.......catching up here.

[R~O~S]

The girls' father is the deceased woman's brother, right? And Daniel's brother-in-law?

Sorry.......catching up here.

You are correct.

[Lavinia]

I wanted to find something about DT's because it has been my medical experience that those who are severely alcoholic are the ones who get it. Not the kind of alcoholic that can be hidden, but the raging alcoholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

"Delirium tremens is caused after a long period of drinking, stopping abruptly and experiencing withdrawal. It may also be triggered by head injury, infection, or illness in people with a history of heavy use of alcohol. It is most common in people who have a history of alcohol withdrawal, especially in those who drink the equivalent of 7 to 8 US pints (3–4 l or 6–7 imp pt) of beer (1 US pint, 400–500 ml or 16–18 imp fl oz of distilled beverage) every day for several months. Delirium tremens also commonly affects those with a history of habitual alcohol use or alcoholism that has existed for more than 10 years."

ETA: I think if she were that much of an alcoholic, her drinking would not have been a surprise to many. IMO.

[SavannahStar]

You are correct.

TY for the response.

SAD case.

I still have sympathy for the husband, though. I am NOT yet convinced he "knew" anything. :sad:

[Lady_Jean_La]

He is going to have terrible survivor guilt - especially if his uncle has nothing further to do with him because of what happened... and because of how his father is handling it.

And he may have to grow up knowing his mother is a killer. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

10 drinks were in her STOMACH? Is that a misprint/misunderstanding on the part of the media? If it's true, that's suicide. BAC of .19 AND an additional 10 drinks guzzled undigested is suicide.
It is murder. imo

[daniel green]

It's still not known exactly how Diane Schuler spent the four hours before the crash. She and her husband, Daniel, 37, arose early and packed to leave ahead of the Sunday traffic, according to Daniel Schuler's account. They drank coffee, then headed out in separate vehicles. Tom Ruskin, an investigator working for Schuler's lawyer, told reporters they left the campground after 9 a.m., then Diane stopped with the children at a McDonalds.

They left the McDonalds around 10:40 a.m., Ruskin said, and they should have been home in two hours or so. State police reported their investigation found no evidence Schuler was impaired at the restaurant.
At the time of the accident, she was not only in the wrong lane but also apparently off a homebound course. In one of several earlier calls, Schuler's niece was heard saying her aunt was having trouble seeing and speaking. Around 1 p.m., at a pull-off just east of the Tappan Zee Bridge, Schuler called her brother, Warren Hance, father of three of the girls in the minivan, saying she felt sick. Police said they found her cellphone there. Shortly after 1:30 p.m., Diane Schuler made the fatal turn onto the parkway.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-08-12-wrongway-mom_N.htm

[daniel green]

Thousands, Daniel.

Then you know, too, that this woman was not having the DTs.

[curiousD]

The drunks ingest alcohol all day to slow the DT's. Im sure there are many many people around us that are alcoholics that hide it.....
A swig in the morning before or after she got to the McDonalds would be all she needed as to not show outward signs...Shes a drunk that killed innocent kids. I have no idea if her husband "Knew" she was that bad. I can only see two plausible choices..either he is a drinker that thinks hes a good driver when he is drunk (a common thing the drunkies say about drinking and driving), or she really was a closet drunk.
I have met plenty of drunks that think they are fine drivers..its INSANE..Perhaps she was a social drinker, then she started drinking a little earlier in the day..then a little earlier.....and so on..before ya know it..she needs the alcohol to keep her from shaking..
Either way its so tragic.. all of the innocent victims..
there are drunks on the road with us everyday...
I will say..anyone who has to carry their vodka on a family camping trip probably has a problem...Im not trying to be holier than thou..but she couldn't make it thru a family camping trip without drinking? How the hell do you watch you kids when your drinking???:cursing:

[curiousD]

The fact that all report her acting "normal" only convinces me more that she was a closet drunk...good at hiding it.:cursing:

[Leanne Weich]

When we go camping we take alcohol with us but it is always in a cooler bag because we take beer for my DH and wine for me. I'm sure if either of us drank spirits, it would be in a picnic basket or some such thing.

I think for her to have had a BAC of 0.19, she'd been drinking pretty consistently over a lengthy period of time. I don't, for one minute, think she was stone cold sober at any point that day and drank herself from sober to dead drunk in 4 1/2 hours.

[Debb]

Has anyone watched the show Intervention? Many times the show's producer has to wrestle falling down drunk people to get their keys away because they are positive they are okay to drive! It' scary! I just don't get it. Why do they insist on driving? Feeling an uncontrollable urge to drink is understandable. It is a disease, however, I don't buy having an uncontrollable urge to drive.

[jaxback]

Has anyone watched the show Intervention? Many times the show's producer has to wrestle falling down drunk people to get their keys away because they are positive they are okay to drive! It' scary! I just don't get it. Why do they insist on driving? Feeling an uncontrollable urge to drink is understandable. It is a disease, however, I don't buy having an uncontrollable urge to drive.

It's not an uncontrollable urge to drive, it's the alcoholic's brain in full misjudgment mode. They really believe they are fine to drive and when they are like that, there is almost nothing that will convince them they are not thinking rationally.

[R~O~S]

I have a couple of questions about this:

1: She was driving the brothers van, so will his auto insurance technically be the one sued or will it be hers?

2: Liability insurance of the 'estate'... would that fall under homeowners policy? How do we know they owned a home and didn't rent?


I can't speak to NYS insurance issues, NY has laws regarding insurance that are so strict and different than any other state that my company and any other that does business in the state has a stand alone company under a different name that conducts all business for the state with employees specially trained in NY law & compliance.

That having been said, if it were any other state it would technically be Diane's coverage & insurer from whom they'd seek compensation although Warren may end up with a surcharge for an at fault accident involving his vehicle because he probably has insurance for uninsured/under insured and Diane's coverage for auto alone isn't likely to cover the liability in full. IOW his coverage may pick up the difference or to his maximum coverage.

Yes, Diane's homeowners coverage should/could also pick up any overage since this won't be a simple matter of auto liability, if there's a civil suit. That would only be if there's a civil suit, if the auto coverage handles everything there won't be a need for a civil suit.

Not knowing the maximums on the auto insurance liability, assuming they've only got the standard we'd all have, I don't think there's much chance there won't be a civil suit even if it's just one insurance company suing the other trying to reduce their liability.

Example: I added substantial personal injury to my home owners insurance when my children started driving. They only carried compulsory auto insurance and if they'd been involved in an accident with substantial personal injury, we as their parents held liability if they were found negligent for the accident. Thank the lord they were never in any accidents save one fender bender lacking any personal injury. I kept the increased coverage even though they're no longer minors or living in the home. We're getting older, it isn't outside the realm of possibility one of us could screw up royally, nobody plans an accident.

The homeowners insurance only comes into play if there's a claim of gross negligence, or violation of the law, on the the part of the homeowner/co-owner. I have no doubt that's going to come into play in this case.

I don't think we know for certain they own the home rather than rent, but it's the impression I have/got from my reading. It doesn't seem the type of neighborhood for rentals, JMHO.

[Lavinia]

Has anyone watched the show Intervention? Many times the show's producer has to wrestle falling down drunk people to get their keys away because they are positive they are okay to drive! It' scary! I just don't get it. Why do they insist on driving? Feeling an uncontrollable urge to drink is understandable. It is a disease, however, I don't buy having an uncontrollable urge to drive.

That's part of being drunk Debb. A definition of being drunk is bad judgment and what is thinking you can drive when you can't but bad judgment? That's often why they get soooo drunk. They don't realize how drunk they are/were until the next day, quite often. I've never been much of a drinker, mostly when I was a kid, and I would often not realize when I had a buzz on until I no longer did. In the early 70's all us kids drove drunk with nary a second thought. Drunk driving just wasn't a big deal then. Besides having my children, not having harmed someone when I was young and ignorant, is something I'm thankful for every day of my life.

[Lavinia]

It's not an uncontrollable urge to drive, it's the alcoholic's brain in full misjudgment mode. They really believe they are fine to drive and when they are like that, there is almost nothing that will convince them they are not thinking rationally.

Oh gosh, J! One of us is going to have to post on certain threads and one of us can take the others if we're always going to be saying the same things! :laugh: GMTA! :thumbsup:

[R~O~S]

That's part of being drunk Debb. A definition of being drunk is bad judgment and what is thinking you can drive when you can't but bad judgment? That's often why they get soooo drunk. They don't realize how drunk they are/were until the next day, quite often. I've never been much of a drinker, mostly when I was a kid, and I would often not realize when I had a buzz on until I no longer did. In the early 70's all us kids drove drunk with nary a second thought. Drunk driving just wasn't a big deal then. Besides having my children, not having harmed someone when I was young and ignorant, is something I'm thankful for every day of my life.

They actually call it "buzz driving" now and have PSA warning it is drunk driving and kills people.

Why do I know deep down in my heart this is why my parents never encouraged us to get drivers licenses? We lived in the city, we could get anywhere we wanted or needed to without driving. I didn't get a license until after I was married, already had two children and we bought a house in the burbs.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=1448925

In an effort to make our roads safer, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA, did some investigating and found that young men between the ages of 18 and 34 were responsible for the vast majority of drunk-driving accidents. But when asked, these young men made a distinction between being drunk and being buzzed.

(skip)

One shows an extremely drunk young man joining a wedding band for a drum solo, adding the line "It's easy to tell when you've had way too many." It cuts to a young man laughing at the drunken drummer as he downs a drink himself and grabs his car keys. The tag line "But what if you've had just one too many? Buzzed driving IS drunk driving."

http://buzzeddriving.com/index.html

[Debb]

That's part of being drunk Debb. A definition of being drunk is bad judgment and what is thinking you can drive when you can't but bad judgment? That's often why they get soooo drunk. They don't realize how drunk they are/were until the next day, quite often. I've never been much of a drinker, mostly when I was a kid, and I would often not realize when I had a buzz on until I no longer did. In the early 70's all us kids drove drunk with nary a second thought. Drunk driving just wasn't a big deal then. Besides having my children, not having harmed someone when I was young and ignorant, is something I'm thankful for every day of my life.

So why do many people including myself know not to drive after we have been drinking? I know many people, myself included, who after drinking a lot, refuse to drive. We call a cab or call a sober person to get us. After many drinks, our judgment is impaired too, right? The more I drink, the more I feel I am not in control. I'm trying to understand this.

As I posted earlier, I had an alcoholic boyfriend once who never drove after drinking. It was never even a consideration. He would often be mean, stupid and a pain while drunk, but never even considered driving. It's just hard to comprehend. I do think this woman's husband knew deep down inside that she had a drinking problem. I guess he just did not appreciate how affected she was.

[Lady_Jean_La]

How long do you think it takes to drink yourself dead drunk? 4 1/2 hours is more than enough time.

Does the mj speed it up?

[Lavinia]

So why do many people including myself know not to drive after we have been drinking? I know many people, myself included, who after drinking a lot, refuse to drive. We call a cab or call a sober person to get us. After many drinks, our judgment is impaired too, right? The more I drink, the more I feel I am not in control. I'm trying to understand this.

As I posted earlier, I had an alcoholic boyfriend once who never drove after drinking. It was never even a consideration. He would often be mean, stupid and a pain while drunk, but never even considered driving. It's just hard to comprehend. I do think this woman's husband knew deep down inside that she had a drinking problem. I guess he just did not appreciate how affected she was.

It's just not affecting your judgment that way. You may think you can sing when you drink. :laugh: It just effects people differently. You see how it can make the nicest person a mean drunk out of the blue? Depending on the person, it can bring out the sadness, the silliness, the obnoxious, the over-confident, the lovey, the lecherous, the nostalgic, the abusive, etc, etc. Not everyone acts in all these ways and not all people do all the time but there is NO lack of stories of people who *think* they can drink and drive just fine. There is no understanding them, Debb, it just is. (For some drunks.)

[Pat]

I wasn't surprised to see Diane's brother and wife have aligned themselves with the other victim's families. I didn't think his wife, the mother of the three little girls killed in the accident, would stand behind Schuler if she knew what he was saying in that press conference was untrue. I would imagine she is full of rage over this and his manipulating of the facts only increases that rage. It diminishes her loss and excuses both Schulers.

While it may not make the national news, I think there will be more to come on the actual drinking habits of both Schulers.

[Details]

Of course he can sue and you totally misinterpreted my post. If you go back, I said I feel sorry for all of them and I also said that I hoped he didn't sue.

No amount of money will ever bring those children back. No amount of money will erase what has happened. They will have to live with this tragedy for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with medieval sensibility.

I can't imagine the pain he is going through. Not only did his children die, his sister killed them. What will it do to sue her estate? Get a few bucks? How much money is worth the lives of 3 beautiful girls? 1 million, 2 million, 10 million? Do you think that'll make him feel better? I think not.

Sometimes it's not always about money.

Like I said in my post. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I think it would absolutely destroy me if my sister or brother was responsible for killing my children.Money is a lot of different things. Money is a funeral. Money is a meal one of those days when they just cannot bring themselves to cook or move that day, that week. Money is grocery delivery. Money is counselling - and lots of it. Money is some time off of work to grieve. Money is a replacement car.

People think of money, so often, as something dirty, as a luxury - money is nothing more than a medium of exchange - and there are many things that will cost the grieving family money. The person who did this, who caused this - or their estate - should pay that money.


You didn't say you didn't feel sorry - but you were talking about the pain of the father and the son - and to me, their pain is no reason this family should suffer the loss of their children compounded by the stress of financial difficulties. Imagine - losing your children - then you have to go to work quickly, rather than taking time off for grief - because otherwise you'll go bankrupt. Money cannot lessen the grief for the children - but it can avoid it being magnified.

[henry]

It's just not affecting your judgment that way. You may think you can sing when you drink. :laugh: It just effects people differently. You see how it can make the nicest person a mean drunk out of the blue? Depending on the person, it can bring out the sadness, the silliness, the obnoxious, the over-confident, the lovey, the lecherous, the nostalgic, the abusive, etc, etc. Not everyone acts in all these ways and not all people do all the time but there is NO lack of stories of people who *think* they can drink and drive just fine. There is no understanding them, Debb, it just is. (For some drunks.)

the way it's been explained to me is that if one has the genetic predisposition towards alcoholism . . . their brain processes alcohol differently than one that does not have the genetic predisposition.

in essence, the alcoholic's brain processes alcohol similar to heroin . . . hence comes the dependency & need for more . . . imo since it was spoken!

[Details]

My husband thinks he can drive just fine while drunk. He told me so - while drunk - quite drunk. And - he'd NEVER do it. Because he knows you do not ever drive after drinking. Even though he thinks he could do just fine, he also knows, solidly, you NEVER drive after drinking, period.

IMO - that's the difference between a drunk driver and someone who drinks, maybe even is an alcoholic - and never endangers others. Whether or not the message, "You never drive after drinking, period" is firmly enough set in their mind.

[shelkobe]

So why do many people including myself know not to drive after we have been drinking? I know many people, myself included, who after drinking a lot, refuse to drive. We call a cab or call a sober person to get us. After many drinks, our judgment is impaired too, right? The more I drink, the more I feel I am not in control. I'm trying to understand this.

As I posted earlier, I had an alcoholic boyfriend once who never drove after drinking. It was never even a consideration. He would often be mean, stupid and a pain while drunk, but never even considered driving. It's just hard to comprehend. I do think this woman's husband knew deep down inside that she had a drinking problem. I guess he just did not appreciate how affected she was.
Yet many people will drive drunk, whether it makes sense to us or not. Here's a crazy story, I have a step-relative who has two DUIs from years ago when the penalties for drunk driving were milder. He lost his license for 10 years the last time, and then decided that since he would serve jail time if he got caught again, not to renew his license so that he was never tempted to drive drunk again. He's not had a license in some 17, 18 years because he does not trust himself when he drinks.

[Leanne Weich]

How long do you think it takes to drink yourself dead drunk? 4 1/2 hours is more than enough time.

True, I guess if you're drinking Vodka. I think more than anything that her having a BAC 0.19 means she hadn't only started drinking 4 1/2 hours ago.

[Lavinia]

True, I guess if you're drinking Vodka. I think more than anything that her having a BAC 0.19 means she hadn't only started drinking 4 1/2 hours ago.

I, too wondered how long she had been drinking. She may have had an even higher BAC if her tests were performed earlier. Who's to say she hadn't actually slowed down on her drinking and some alcohol had already been metabolized? Not likely, but it could be possible that 0.19 wasn't her highest BAC while driving.

[tv4me]

I personally think she started drinking before she started the drive home. As a functioning alcoholic she could walk into McDonalds and seem fine. Maybe the kids were whining or she was upset that she had to take the girls home for their recital while hubby got to stay and go fishing and that's when she started drinking more than usual. I think the missing hour is when she must have pulled into a rest stop and gotten really drunk. Did she order some orange juice to go at McDonald? Perhaps she thought she'd make herself a few screw drivers. After drinking at the rest stop, perhaps she thought smoking a joint would sober her up?

I can only imagine what the children were thinking at this point. Could be that Diane told Emma that she was "sick" and what she was drinking was "medicine." Might be what prompted the neice to call her father.

[jaxback]

[QUOTE=Lavinia;13362864]Oh gosh, J! One of us is going to have to post on certain threads and one of us can take the others if we're always going to be saying the same things! :laugh: GMTA! QUOTE]

:biggrin: It's scary, isn't it? Let me know when you are heading to Casey Anthony and I'll stay here - and vice versa. :wub:

[TexanLisa]

And not suing the estate is taking away from the parents who just lost 3 children. I'd imagine they'd trade anything to have a surviving daughter.

The estate will represent the killer's half of their belongings. Yes, that will be some shared assets. She killed their children. She caused this burden on them, crushed them. A lawsuit is how this financial burden inflicted on them will be paid back - in small part, no doubt.

Our opinions differ.

No money will EVER replace a child.

When we sued a local hospital for misdiagnosing our daughter and eventually causing her death, you know what we asked for?

Not a cent of money! We asked that those involved would NEVER AGAIN be allowed to read an MRI, treat, diagnose or even put a band aid on a child.

We won and I can only imagine the number of children who are alive today because of what we did. Putting money in our account could have and would have NEVER done that.

[n/t]

Our opinions differ.

No money will EVER replace a child.

When we sued a local hospital for misdiagnosing our daughter and eventually causing her death, you know what we asked for?

Not a cent of money! We asked that those involved would NEVER AGAIN be allowed to read an MRI, treat, diagnose or even put a band aid on a child.

We won and I can only imagine the number of children who are alive today because of what we did. Putting money in our account could have and would have NEVER done that.

Amen. God Bless you. :rose:

[daniel green]

Has anyone watched the show Intervention? Many times the show's producer has to wrestle falling down drunk people to get their keys away because they are positive they are okay to drive! It' scary! I just don't get it. Why do they insist on driving? Feeling an uncontrollable urge to drink is understandable. It is a disease, however, I don't buy having an uncontrollable urge to drive.

It's not an uncontrollable urge to DRIVE. It is the uncontrollable urge to USE.

[daniel green]

It's not an uncontrollable urge to drive, it's the alcoholic's brain in full misjudgment mode. They really believe they are fine to drive and when they are like that, there is almost nothing that will convince them they are not thinking rationally.

Hey, Jax! Sorry I had not read your post when I posted just about the same thing.

[lunchlady]

I personally think she started drinking before she started the drive home. As a functioning alcoholic she could walk into McDonalds and seem fine. Maybe the kids were whining or she was upset that she had to take the girls home for their recital while hubby got to stay and go fishing and that's when she started drinking more than usual. I think the missing hour is when she must have pulled into a rest stop and gotten really drunk. Did she order some orange juice to go at McDonald? Perhaps she thought she'd make herself a few screw drivers. After drinking at the rest stop, perhaps she thought smoking a joint would sober her up?

I can only imagine what the children were thinking at this point. Could be that Diane told Emma that she was "sick" and what she was drinking was "medicine." Might be what prompted the neice to call her father.

I've imagined this same scenario. What was she doing all that time between McDonald's and the crash? She didn't make much progress towards home and was even off course a bit. Maybe she even bought some pot at the rest stop and smoked it, but I doubt she thought it would sober her up.

[R~O~S]

I don't smoke POT and never have but is it usual for folks to be hanging around Rest Stops, selling the stuff? That would really surprise me. Where was she and the car? I would assume the police are back tracking her and asking all citizens to notify them if they saw her or the car. Where was she with those kids? Call 911 if you see anything unusual or need help.

Believe it or not, some are known for it, others cater to vices of a different nature, IYKWIM.

Of course you'd need to be familiar with the stop and already have a known reliable source there, especially if you were traveling with kids & needing to get in and out quickly. Wandering the parking lot inquiring, regardless of how nonchalantly, wouldn't work so well. lol

I don't believe she bought her pot along the route, she had it with her when she left the camp. JMHO

[jaxback]

Hey, Jax! Sorry I had not read your post when I posted just about the same thing.

Aw, well, great minds and all that. :wink: It's pretty easy to tell who on the thread has had some exposure to alcoholics and who hasn't, isn't it? Our responses are so different!

To me it seems so simple: she was a secret (or somewhat secret) high-functioning alcoholic who completely lost any ability to control herself on the day this terrible crash occurred. I'd bet she was driving in a blackout state, but we will never know. It's so da**ed sad and horrible - but to me, because of experience with my alcoholic ex, not surprising. :sad:

[R~O~S]

Our opinions differ.

No money will EVER replace a child.

When we sued a local hospital for misdiagnosing our daughter and eventually causing her death, you know what we asked for?

Not a cent of money! We asked that those involved would NEVER AGAIN be allowed to read an MRI, treat, diagnose or even put a band aid on a child.

We won and I can only imagine the number of children who are alive today because of what we did. Putting money in our account could have and would have NEVER done that.

I'm deeply sorry for your loss. I hope you found some comfort in knowing those responsible can never have the same impact on another family.

Diane will never again be able to drive the wrong way on a highway or endanger the public with her intoxication while driving.

What's left is the financial hardship also incurred by the families who lost loved ones. The financial hardship should not be left to the families that have already lost so much because of Diane's actions.

[ScoobyDoo]

I don't smoke POT and never have but is it usual for folks to be hanging around Rest Stops, selling the stuff? That would really surprise me. Where was she and the car? I would assume the police are back tracking her and asking all citizens to notify them if they saw her or the car. Where was she with those kids? Call 911 if you see anything unusual or need help.


I do smoke pot and have never ever been able to buy it at any rest stop.

ps.. And pot alone would never cause someone to have that type of accident.

[jaxback]

What about me? Have I had exposure to alcoholics, in your opinion? Better yet, do tell us who has and who has not.

Jeesh, the comment wasn't intended to offend you!

All I meant was I think that people who are trying to come up with rational explanations like she was having the d.t.'s or she had a fight with someone and that set her off probably haven't been exposed to the utterly irrational behavior of alcoholics.

Sorry you took it personally.

jmo:rolleyes:

[Lavinia]

Oh gosh, J! One of us is going to have to post on certain threads and one of us can take the others if we're always going to be saying the same things! :laugh: GMTA! QUOTE]

:biggrin: It's scary, isn't it? Let me know when you are heading to Casey Anthony and I'll stay here - and vice versa. :wub:

LOL! That's okay, we'll just start charging double for our comments.

[lunchlady]

I do smoke pot and have never ever been able to buy it at any rest stop.

ps.. And pot alone would never cause someone to have that type of accident.

I used to get offered pot for sale all the time, including at least once at a rest stop. I guess I looked like a likely customer, but now I look like a middleaged lady, which I am, and no one offers to sell me illegal drugs anymore. I also spend most of my times in distinctly non-gritty areas nowadays.

I was just imagining how she might have spent some of the time between leaving McDonald's and crashing, which was almost 3 hours I think?

[Lavinia]

ANBESOL?!?!?! Vinnie Politan sitting in on JVM's show says that Daniel Schuler is blaming ANBESOL for causing a false positive in her drinking. :lol:

[jaxback]

ANBESOL?!?!?! Vinnie Politan sitting in on JVM's show says that Daniel Schuler is blaming ANBESOL for causing a false positive in her drinking. :lol:

What is Anbesol?:confused:

[Lavinia]

What's going on here? I would like for someone who knows him to explain his behavior.

Either:

1. He honestly doesn't think she was drinking, believes she never drank, and he's completely dumfounded as to what happened.

OR;

2. He's Caylee Anthony in male form saying absolutely preposterous things.

I don't know which it is. It would be interesting to hear from more of her friends.

I've leaned about 95% in the #2 category for the hubs.

[Pat]

Anbesol Liquid (Benzocaine Topical): Benzocaine is a local anesthetic (numbing medication). It works by blocking nerve signals in your body.

(Sorry. My Vista shut down and I lost the link. :cursing: Just google Anbesol to get all kinds of info.)

We are back to that tooth.

I smell desperation.

There is no way Anbesol is going to explain the fact she was driving drunk and drugged.

His Schuler sister-in-law did him no favors by getting him that attorney and encouraging him to make public statements.

[ish]

From what I read it was a 1.75 liter bottle of Absolut Vodka found underneath debris of the mini van. I haven't heard/read the proof of the Vodka.
I can't even imagine a 'social drinker' throwing back 10 drinks in 4 1/2 hours without getting sick, let alone adding THC to the mix. I've also NEVER heard of a 'social drinker' drinking early in the morning.

IIRC Diane went to McDonald's shortly after she left the campsite at 9am. Even if she'd only had one, or even 2 drinks at that point if she was a regular drinker it would likely not be noticable, IMO. So my guess would be she had just started drinking, or she could handle her liquor due to being a regular drinker.

I'm guessing she wasn't drinking it, she was guzzling it. There is definately a time period unaccounted for. Did she possibly pull over somewhere to have a few gulps and then again when the liquor started to affect her. perhaps she stopped on the side of the highway to sober up or maybe she actually passed out, and that is when the niece called her dad. If her husband left at the same time and she was stopping for breakfast and then on home, why didn't the hubby call when she was more than an hour or so behind him in arriving home. Why only communication with the nieces dad (her brother)? I'm suspecting a problem between hubby and wife. Did her brother call her husband, is that why there was a delay in the bro calling police. Someone i think is holding something back.

[Lavinia]

Anbesol Liquid (Benzocaine Topical): Benzocaine is a local anesthetic (numbing medication). It works by blocking nerve signals in your body.

(Sorry. My Vista shut down and I lost the link. :cursing: Just google Anbesol to get all kinds of info.)

We are back to that tooth.

I smell desperation.

There is no way Anbesol is going to explain the fact she was driving drunk and drugged.

His Schuler sister-in-law did him no favors by getting him that attorney and encouraging him to make public statements.

No, now they're starting to tick *me* off. You can imagine how much this kind of transparent BULLSHIRT ticks off the family of the nieces and the 3 men who died because Diane was falling down drunk.

[Lavinia]

So are there people hanging around truck stops and roadway parks pushing Anbesol? :rolleyes:

[ish]

I personally think she started drinking before she started the drive home. As a functioning alcoholic she could walk into McDonalds and seem fine. Maybe the kids were whining or she was upset that she had to take the girls home for their recital while hubby got to stay and go fishing and that's when she started drinking more than usual. I think the missing hour is when she must have pulled into a rest stop and gotten really drunk. Did she order some orange juice to go at McDonald? Perhaps she thought she'd make herself a few screw drivers. After drinking at the rest stop, perhaps she thought smoking a joint would sober her up?

I can only imagine what the children were thinking at this point. Could be that Diane told Emma that she was "sick" and what she was drinking was "medicine." Might be what prompted the neice to call her father.

I think the booze and pot was only part of it (a big part) I think she was was angry over something or angry at the husband and the phone call with the brother made it worse. I think the niece called her dad, he got Diane on the phone, they argued, maybe over her being drunk, she tosses the phone on the side of the road, so the kids can't call daddy and takes off. Drunk and Angry, not a good combination.

[ttcRider]

Here is a thought... maybe she was up partying till the wee hours forgetting she had to take the girls to recital in the morning, remembered, went to bed for a few hours and when she woke up she felt carpy and thought the 'hair of the dog' would make her feel better and headed off with the kids?? :confused:

Regardless... Drunk driving.

[n/t]

Anbesol Liquid (Benzocaine Topical): Benzocaine is a local anesthetic (numbing medication). It works by blocking nerve signals in your body.

(Sorry. My Vista shut down and I lost the link. :cursing: Just google Anbesol to get all kinds of info.)

We are back to that tooth.

I smell desperation.

There is no way Anbesol is going to explain the fact she was driving drunk and drugged.

His Schuler sister-in-law did him no favors by getting him that attorney and encouraging him to make public statements.


It also comes in liquid form. Regardless, it's getting ridiculous. She was higher than a kite and toxicology reports proved it. This attorney is not only embarrassing the family but trying to cash in on this horrific tragedy. I hope Daniel realizes this is hurting him more than helping.

Criminal investigation is ongoing. If it is proven that someone knowingly and willingly gave her the alcohol, they may have a case. The fact that she's dead, it's a long stretch to prove anyone else but Diane Schuler is guilty of this crime.

[sinagua]

The panel had a heyday over the Anbesol story. (HLN)

I have yet to see Daniel shed a tear. He tries. But, no tears.

[jaxback]

Anbesol Liquid (Benzocaine Topical): Benzocaine is a local anesthetic (numbing medication). It works by blocking nerve signals in your body.

(Sorry. My Vista shut down and I lost the link. :cursing: Just google Anbesol to get all kinds of info.)

We are back to that tooth.

I smell desperation.

There is no way Anbesol is going to explain the fact she was driving drunk and drugged.

His Schuler sister-in-law did him no favors by getting him that attorney and encouraging him to make public statements.

Oh good grief, Benzocaine!?! What does he think she was doing, drinking it?

That is one cockeyed explanation!:scared: