8/6 - 8/9

[BOZGAL2]

Here is our new thread

[CinderL.]

Well, that scared me. I thought I got banned. :scared::laugh::laugh:

[flipflop]

Thanks. That scared me. I thought the thread got shut down.

[BOZGAL2]

Thanks. That scared me. I thought the thread got shut down.

Not this time. :wink: JMO

[retiredcop]

I thought I got banned and the thread was shut down. lol

[aproudmom]

Here is our new thread

LOL haha gotcha all..:laugh: I saw it coming..thanks BOZ sweety appreciate you opening one..

[BOZGAL2]

LOL haha gotcha all..:laugh: I saw it coming..thanks BOZ sweety appreciate you opening one..

NP
Glad to open one while we still can. :biggrin:

[aproudmom]

I thought I got banned and the thread was shut down. lol

LOL I think alot did..Are you a retired cop? if so thank you they are my heroes well some are..got alot of family in the LE...Sorry O/T

also I am not sure but was we talking about the amount of rooms in the house IIRC in a old interview they said a 7 bedroom home..but could be wrong..

[Lyndawitha"Y]

LOL I think alot did..Are you a retired cop? if so thank you they are my heroes well some are..got alot of family in the LE...Sorry O/T

also I am not sure but was we talking about the amount of rooms in the house IIRC in a old interview they said a 7 bedroom home..but could be wrong..


LOL..With that place..I am sure I would be quit comfy in one of the fireplaces..as long as I had a nice pillow and blankey....That place is huge...Dont think there would any problems trying to find a place to flop!! and get some "ZZ's"

LMS

[aproudmom]

LOL..With that place..I am sure I would be quit comfy in one of the fireplaces..as long as I had a nice pillow and blankey....That place is huge...Dont think there would any problems trying to find a place to flop!! and get some "ZZ's"

LMS

It reminds me of going to my nanny and Poppy's house we were so close I remember we all had sleeping pads it is good for families to be close it is not the amount of rooms it is the amount of Love IMO...:wub:

[Unperson1984]

The temp forum said from Friday till Monday. I've spent the entire day believing it was still Thursday. doh

Why a temporary forum? Have I forgotten a Holiday? Do I need to go gift shopping?

:eek:

[aproudmom]

The temp forum said from Friday till Monday. I've spent the entire day believing it was still Thursday. doh

OMG Arg it is Thursday..so your OK not losing it,..I saw Haleigh's open up and figured they had moved it up on us with out warning...

[BOZGAL2]

OMG Arg it is Thursday..so your OK not losing it,..I saw Haleigh's open up and figured they had moved it up on us with out warning...

Thanx for being on the ball PM about the temp threads :thumbsup:

[CinderL.]

It reminds me of going to my nanny and Poppy's house we were so close I remember we all had sleeping pads it is good for families to be close it is not the amount of rooms it is the amount of Love IMO...:wub:

Not for everyday, forever. I think they will be looking for a new house. I just hope the kids don't have to pay for it.

[CinderL.]

Why a temporary forum? Have I forgotten a Holiday? Do I need to go gift shopping?

:eek:

:lol::lol:

[aproudmom]

Why a temporary forum? Have I forgotten a Holiday? Do I need to go gift shopping?

:eek:

:lol:omg I just chocked on my Twinkie

[CinderL.]

So ET says that the family has finally decided to bury MJ at Forest Lawn. Finally.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Why a temporary forum? Have I forgotten a Holiday? Do I need to go gift shopping?

:eek:

Nope..It is closing for maintenance...something like that..but is isnt any holdiay..Temporary form will be in place until Monday AM..at least that is what CW said..LOL

LMS:laugh:

[Unperson1984]

Its okay.. I don't mind a late birthday gift. Need a ride to Nordstroms?

I prefer Bloomies. :wink:

[aproudmom]

Not for everyday, forever. I think they will be looking for a new house. I just hope the kids don't have to pay for it.

is it true KJ was pretty much broke? I heard that a while back but did not know if it was true or not...

[aproudmom]

ahhh... the twinkie defense.

:thumbsup: OK it was actually a ding dong but figured Twinkies sounded better..

[BOZGAL2]

ahhh... the twinkie defense.

OMG
Its been awhile since I heard that one. :thumbsup:

[flipflop]

LOL I think alot did..Are you a retired cop? if so thank you they are my heroes well some are..got alot of family in the LE...Sorry O/T

also I am not sure but was we talking about the amount of rooms in the house IIRC in a old interview they said a 7 bedroom home..but could be wrong..

If this is really the Encino family home, IT IS HUGE. I think there is plenty of room. At least temporarily anyway.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/06/exclusive-jackson-%E2%80%9Cfamily-home%E2%80%9D-underwater

[Lyndawitha"Y]

is it true KJ was pretty much broke? I heard that a while back but did not know if it was true or not...

It seems to me that MJ bought that house for her..and he did place a hefty mortgage on it to raise funds..so MJ 's estate really is on the hook for the mortgage payments..so time will tell..if new diggs are in order or not....please correct me if I am mistaken on that "Jackson Clan home"...

LMS

[BOZGAL2]

:thumbsup: OK it was actually a ding dong but figured Twinkies sounded better..

You know it really does. :wink:

[BOZGAL2]

If this is really the Encino family home, IT IS HUGE. I think there is plenty of room. At least temporarily anyway.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/06/exclusive-jackson-%E2%80%9Cfamily-home%E2%80%9D-underwater

I do believe they will be able to manage for awhile... JMO

[aproudmom]

http://www.webofdeception.com/jacksonliens.html

ok was googling the home and seen this tax kinda confusing to me..

[Ahlou]

Don't know what the temp is about but I have questions and issues maybe someone will discuss.

First off I'm in a fight with a stepmom amassed by my father if one call her that after he deserted my mother and his only legal child so I have issues but this is about MJ.

Reading thru off an on it seems some feel MJ's parents deserve nothinng. I ask if you amassed a fortune (even messed up) would you not want your parents to have anything? IMO if theree was no mother and father we would not have MJ with all his fame.

I realize he have three children - I don't care who the other parent is - and those three children will be needing someone to take care of them for a few years. Why is it some feel they are the only ones who should benefit from the fortune? Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems some feel MJ's family should totally support the children while all for the children be held in trust.

Is there anyone who feel any Jackson should go out find a job or continue a job and pay for the support of those children? Seems some may feel everything should be held aside for the children and the family should do all of the support of the children.

I may be wrong but that is what it seems when reading the threads. Example: House not large enough, ok so should the family downsize because MJ died to so his children can have a place but the other family members should move who knows where.

[aproudmom]

what is all this stuff I am lost..

Dermatologist of Michael Jackson

Licensee Information
Name: KLEIN, ARNOLD WILLIAM
Standardized Address: 435 N ROXBURY DR
BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210-5027
LOS ANGELES COUNTY
Original Address: 435 NORTH ROXBURY DRIVE
BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210
Race: Unknown

License Information
Profession or Board: MEDICAL BOARD OF CALIFORNIA
License Type: PHYSICIAN AND SURGEON
License Number: 00024719
Issued Date: 06/26/1972
License Expiration Date: 02/28/2011
Status: VALID UNTIL 02/28/2011
Status Date: 05/01/2009


DEA Registrant

Registration Number: AK4841943

Party 1
Name: KLEIN, ARNOLD W MD
Address: 435 N ROXBURY DRIVE, #204. BEVERLY HILLS
BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210-5004
SSN: 264-64-XXXX
Business Activity: PRACTITIONER

Registration Information
License Expiration Date: 12/31/2010

[CinderL.]

Me too. But children need a room. It can be shared, but IMO every child needs a bed of their own and a few drawers at minimum.

I guess looking at the house, they will manage. Look at the Duggers. :ohmy:

[Xenam]

Why a temporary forum? Have I forgotten a Holiday? Do I need to go gift shopping?

:eek:

Sounds like a good reason to me. Need company? :biggrin:

[CinderL.]

Don't know what the temp is about but I have questions and issues maybe someone will discuss.

First off I'm in a fight with a stepmom amassed by my father if one call her that after he deserted my mother and his only legal child so I have issues but this is about MJ.

Reading thru off an on it seems some feel MJ's parents deserve nothinng. I ask if you amassed a fortune (even messed up) would you not want your parents to have anything? IMO if theree was no mother and father we would not have MJ with all his fame.

I realize he have three children - I don't care who the other parent is - and those three children will be needing someone to take care of them for a few years. Why is it some feel they are the only ones who should benefit from the fortune? Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems some feel MJ's family should totally support the children while all for the children be held in trust.

Is there anyone who feel any Jackson should go out find a job or continue a job and pay for the support of those children? Seems some may feel everything should be held aside for the children and the family should do all of the support of the children.

I may be wrong but that is what it seems when reading the threads. Example: House not large enough, ok so should the family downsize because MJ died to so his children can have a place but the other family members should move who knows where.

I don't think anyone is saying that one of the Jackson's should get a job, but I don't know why they can't. Not KJ or Joe, but the rest are all able bodied. But, I am sure that they will get money from the children's funds for their needs.

[Xenam]

what is all this stuff I am lost..

Dermatologist of Michael Jackson

<snip>
Party 1
Name: KLEIN, ARNOLD W MD
Address: 435 N ROXBURY DRIVE, #204. BEVERLY HILLS
BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210-5004
SSN: 264-64-XXXX
Business Activity: PRACTITIONER

Registration Information
License Expiration Date: 12/31/2010

Any doctor that prescribes controlled substances has to be licensed by the DEA and their number is put on secure prescriptions

[Xenam]

Don't know what the temp is about but I have questions and issues maybe someone will discuss.

First off I'm in a fight with a stepmom amassed by my father if one call her that after he deserted my mother and his only legal child so I have issues but this is about MJ.

Reading thru off an on it seems some feel MJ's parents deserve nothinng. I ask if you amassed a fortune (even messed up) would you not want your parents to have anything? IMO if theree was no mother and father we would not have MJ with all his fame.

I realize he have three children - I don't care who the other parent is - and those three children will be needing someone to take care of them for a few years. Why is it some feel they are the only ones who should benefit from the fortune? Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems some feel MJ's family should totally support the children while all for the children be held in trust.

Is there anyone who feel any Jackson should go out find a job or continue a job and pay for the support of those children? Seems some may feel everything should be held aside for the children and the family should do all of the support of the children.

I may be wrong but that is what it seems when reading the threads. Example: House not large enough, ok so should the family downsize because MJ died to so his children can have a place but the other family members should move who knows where.

Just speaking for myself -- MJ left 40% to his mom, and 40% to his children. IMO KJ is entitled to do whatever she wants with her share. It is now her money. :shrug:

There was also a movie theater at one time at the Encino home and it was converted into a home for Jermaine, his wife and children back in 1992 so don't know why the house is considered so small? I am sure there are rooms that can be converted if need be. JMO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Not originally. I read somewhere...think it was Latoya's book that Joe picked it out and bought it with the Jackson 5 money when they first moved out to CA. It was around $300,000 at the time. Prior to buying it Katherine and the girls stayed back on Jackson Street while the boys stayed with Diana Ross. Joe lived???

I think MJ bought it from Joe when he almost lost it and MJ bailed the family out.


Ya know..I am totally confused on the Jackson Clan's intermingled finances...it does seem that MJ seemed to support most of them..saving Rebbie and Janet...LaToya..I have no clue where she fits into that picture..I do recall one of sisters bailing out some lien or something..but I know that house is "Not Bought and Paid For"..at this time..Geesh..I'll bet the taxes on that place is huge..

It is something that MJ apparantly supported a good portion of his family..mother mainly..who by extention brought in her duckies to live with her....But I really wonder just what Joe has done to support his wife..monetary wise?? in the past decade? ..No one in the family seem to have any wants or needs..Could be they are living on credit???

My goodness..I am sure they all want to get the MJ Estate ironed out..so can make decisions..Course Momma Jackson wants to continue spending big bucks for further Autopsies...Now..that expense is not common sensensical to me at all!!

LMS

[aproudmom]

Don't know what the temp is about but I have questions and issues maybe someone will discuss.

First off I'm in a fight with a stepmom amassed by my father if one call her that after he deserted my mother and his only legal child so I have issues but this is about MJ.

Reading thru off an on it seems some feel MJ's parents deserve nothinng. I ask if you amassed a fortune (even messed up) would you not want your parents to have anything? IMO if theree was no mother and father we would not have MJ with all his fame.

I realize he have three children - I don't care who the other parent is - and those three children will be needing someone to take care of them for a few years. Why is it some feel they are the only ones who should benefit from the fortune? Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems some feel MJ's family should totally support the children while all for the children be held in trust.

Is there anyone who feel any Jackson should go out find a job or continue a job and pay for the support of those children? Seems some may feel everything should be held aside for the children and the family should do all of the support of the children.

I may be wrong but that is what it seems when reading the threads. Example: House not large enough, ok so should the family downsize because MJ died to so his children can have a place but the other family members should move who knows where.

No and I think several think the same as you do..and I am one of them..I think they will be just fine Prince and Paris will be out before we know it..IMO KJ is their caregiver and granny she needs to be there for them not out working at Target..the kids will be loved I have no doubt..just remember they came from a 4 room house everyone does not live with wealth many families live together..

[Xenam]

Janet saved the Encino home from foreclosure in 2006:

Some good news, though: Jackson returns to the family home in Encino with his mortgage payments up to date. Sources tell me sister Janet Jackson brought his $2.2 million loan current on February 10. The mortgage holder is relieved they don't have to foreclose. Janet Jackson also brought up to date Jackson's overdue payments on storage facilities in Buellton, Calif.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,187406,00.html

[Ahlou]

I don't think anyone is saying that one of the Jackson's should get a job, but I don't know why they can't. Not KJ or Joe, but the rest are all able bodied. But, I am sure that they will get money from the children's funds for their needs.
Thank you for clearing it up about your feeling aobut K&J Jackson getting or not getting a job. Would it be they will continue getting assistance from wherever they did before MJ died and why should they not get more to take care of the children now.

As for the other siblings where is it said they are now relying on MJ's anything and why would it be so bad if they got some assistance from their dead brother?

I'm wondering why is it only the children's funds and why is it or would it be so terrible if a child of means took care of his parents as well as his children?

BTW thanx for the reply.

[aproudmom]

Just speaking for myself -- MJ left 40% to his mom, and 40% to his children. IMO KJ is entitled to do whatever she wants with her share. It is now her money. :shrug:

There was also a movie theater at one time at the Encino home and it was converted into a home for Jermaine, his wife and children back in 1992 so don't know why the house is considered so small? I am sure there are rooms that can be converted if need be. JMO

oh wait did I read that post wrong..I think KJ should get just what her son wanted her to have and she can do what she pleases with it..and I would think MJ would want his family supported I think some had falling outs but they always came together in the bad times..he loved them all he just did not want them to tell him he was a addict and needed help IMO..which is soooo normal not just a MJ thing..they will be fine I also do not think MJ spoiled his children did he buy them things yes but to me they were never dressed in 5 grand shirts and 1000 pair of shoes..they seemed so mature for their age I think he did a good job but that is just my opinion I was not in the home..

[Ahlou]

In MJ's dysfuctional family...it's my opinion he was severely mentally and physically abused by his father while his mother stood by and allowed it.....all so the children could support them. I think the root of all of MJ's issues was his family.

MJ supported them all his life....and provided for his mother and children only in his will. It was his money and if he wanted to leave it all to Bubbles, he had every right to do so. Had he wanted to provide for his siblings or father, he would have. IMO

I HATE that those children are in Katherine Jackson's custody.
I disagree the family is any different than other families except one child made it much bigger. I don't know that he was abused and have never seen anything showing the mother stood by and allowed it. I'll bet we have some normal so to speak families who when through stuff and throw stones because it's not out. I feel MJ said it and had enablers picking up dough sayin - keep telling more dirt and after awhile it became gospel. I do not think his mother ever stood by and let abouse happen.

MJ did not support his family all his life he was a child and it was but for his father and mother he made it where he did. In my culture we support our parents in their old age....and siblings if needed.

You may hate they are in KJ's custody but they could be with DR which would be much worse, imo.

[Ahlou]

oh wait did I read that post wrong..I think KJ should get just what her son wanted her to have and she can do what she pleases with it..and I would think MJ would want his family supported I think some had falling outs but they always came together in the bad times..he loved them all he just did not want them to tell him he was a addict and needed help IMO..which is soooo normal not just a MJ thing..they will be fine I also do not think MJ spoiled his children did he buy them things yes but to me they were never dressed in 5 grand shirts and 1000 pair of shoes..they seemed so mature for their age I think he did a good job but that is just my opinion I was not in the home..
Worth bumping up 'cause it is just what I'm thinking!!!!!

[Xenam]

oh wait did I read that post wrong..I think KJ should get just what her son wanted her to have and she can do what she pleases with it..and I would think MJ would want his family supported I think some had falling outs but they always came together in the bad times..he loved them all he just did not want them to tell him he was a addict and needed help IMO..which is soooo normal not just a MJ thing..they will be fine I also do not think MJ spoiled his children did he buy them things yes but to me they were never dressed in 5 grand shirts and 1000 pair of shoes..they seemed so mature for their age I think he did a good job but that is just my opinion I was not in the home..

aproudmom -- If I had enough money to take care of my entire family (in this case millions) I would do so - why not? A couple of MJs brothers and his nieces and nephews were living there already before he died. He supported them then and no reason KJ should not support them now. The simple answer is MJ is no longer living and it is now KJ's money to with what she pleases. None of my business.

I also agree with you no matter how many families may have rifts -- usually love supercedes all else. From everything I've read -- MJ forgave his father. He did not forget -- but he forgave. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Thank you for clearing it up about your feeling about K&J Jackson getting or not getting a job. Would it be they will continue getting assistance from wherever they did before MJ died and why should they not get more to take care of the children now.

As for the other siblings where is it said they are now relying on MJ's anything and why would it be so bad if they got some assistance from their dead brother?

I'm wondering why is it only the children's funds and why is it or would it be so terrible if a child of means took care of his parents as well as his children?

BTW thanx for the reply.

They have said that the insurance has been paid out now and we don't know who the beneficiaries of those were. Life insurance does not go through probate and is a contract between the insured and the insurance company so he very well could have left an amount to some of his siblings. Those are confidential and I doubt we will ever know who got them and for how much each.

His three children are considered his closest heirs and then it would be his mother, father and sibling. Of course he has a right to leave his assets to those he wishes to have it and exclude others he does not want to have it.

Katherine will only get 40% of what is made off of the estate and if she does not use up all of that 40% then any amount left over will go back to his children.

imo

[Xenam]

Well, apparently MJ didn't want to leave anything to his father or siblings. Culture or not.

I don't think a human being can get that screwed up mentally and have terrific supportive & loving parents. IMO

I happen to think they would be better off with Debbie Rowe.

Not Michael -- and don't know what his intentions were. However, I believe MJ knew KJ would continue to do whatever she was doing before his death. She supported her family then and will continue to do after his death and I would venture to guess he knew that. He just trusted her to do the right thing and it is now HER money. He did not forget what his father did -- but he did forgive him. JMO

[aproudmom]

Janet saved the Encino home from foreclosure in 2006:

Some good news, though: Jackson returns to the family home in Encino with his mortgage payments up to date. Sources tell me sister Janet Jackson brought his $2.2 million loan current on February 10. The mortgage holder is relieved they don't have to foreclose. Janet Jackson also brought up to date Jackson's overdue payments on storage facilities in Buellton, Calif.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,187406,00.html

Thank X knew I had heard there was a problem..

here is the doctors stuff..boy he did have some debt and court dates even up to April from what I can see..
http://www.webofdeception.com/michaeljacksondoctor.html#medicalsanctions

[Xenam]

Link originally posted by: daniel green
http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b138...d_jackson.html
snip


SC -- is the link in this thread or if not do you know when it was originally posted (I can search for it - would just make it a bit easier) The link doesn't work for me. :(

[Xenam]

It was on todays thread....post 195 titled.... ""No Third Autopsy for "Sliced and Diced" Jackson"

trying to link it again for ya.

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b138...d_jackson.html

:cool: Thank you!!! Still didn't work but I went back. For some reason if you copy a link from a post it doesn't work - you have to open the link and re-copy the url. Don't ask me why.

Gonna read it now.

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b138043_no_third_autopsy_sliced_diced_jackson.html

[aproudmom]

WOW wait a minute is there something I missed how do we know MJ is supporting his WHOLE family...IIRC one of the brothers do odd jobs or something right? do we know that they have no money and KJ is taking care of them 24/7..Jermaine was driving the nice A** car before MJ died Janet was in Vegas taking care of herself I just do not understand how we know for a Fact they are living off their brother or uncle..if so no big deal to me it is KJ money as long as the kids are cared for O well
3-T is very popular over in the UK and their dad runs their affairs IIRC..

[Xenam]

WOW wait a minute is there something I missed how do we know MJ is supporting his WHOLE family...IIRC one of the brothers do odd jobs or something right? do we know that they have no money and KJ is taking care of them 24/7..Jermaine was driving the nice A** car before MJ died Janet was in Vegas taking care of herself I just do not understand how we know for a Fact they are living off their brother or uncle..if so no big deal to me it is KJ money as long as the kids are cared for O well
3-T is very popular over in the UK and their dad runs their affairs IIRC..

IIRC it was Jermaine, Randy and their children only. JMO

[aproudmom]

These estate attorneys are all over this thing, IMO; they will not let the Jacksons get away with stuff like that.

I am still of the mind that Lindell will push Katherine to sue because Jackson Sr. and Rowe want on board.

If you saw Dileo on LIK, you know what HE thinks of Joe and Rowe.

Branca is the one who handled Elvis' estate for Priscillia.

was it on tonight? if so I think it repeats here..I missed it

[Xenam]

In response to SC's post #69:

Oh that is just horrible. I wouldn't think they would have known what was on those hard drives but in any event it was just plain wrong. Everything he owned belongs to the estate.

Also I would be VERY surprised if the Judge changes the executors -- maybe make a decision to allow her to be informed of what they are doing. Guess you never know -- just hope they don't change it. That would be crazy. No way do I believe KJ could handle MJ's business affairs or JJ either -- they would be eaten alive. JMHO

[aproudmom]

That link doesn't work for me either now

Here it is straight from Rolling Stone:

"Hard drives containing new Michael Jackson songs and unreleased cuts from his ’80s peak were removed from the King of Pop’s estate by sister LaToya after the singer’s death on June 25th, Rolling Stone reports in our new issue, in an in-depth look at the battle between will co-executors and the Jackson family over Michael’s estate. Jackson’s manager Frank DiLeo told RS that there are over 100 songs that remain unreleased, but the hard drives removed from Jackson’s Los Angeles home feature songs Jackson worked on with Akon, Will.i.am and Ne-Yo."


and and this tidbit

"However, as Rolling Stone’s Claire Hoffman writes, the Jackson family, patriarch Joe Jackson in particular, is trying to wrestle away power of the estate away from attorney John Branca and John McClain, the two men named as executors in Jackson’s 2002 will. “They are trying to rewrite the will, trying to get control,” DiLeo tells RS. In the hours after Michael died, the family cleaned out his Los Angeles house, removing everything including the hard drives. “They thought Michael owned it all, so they took even the rented furniture,” DiLeo said. “That’s who’s going to run his estate?”


http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/06/michael-jackson-left-hard-drives-of-new-songs-80s-recordings/

WOW I only saw Kathy and Rick Hilton and Janet there that night..it is on YouTube guess Hollywood missed out on the others..you know what though the PD did not tape it off the family had not been in contact with him so taking something from the home that may not have been his could have been untentional I would have done the same this is MJ they did not know who could get in there and sell his toenails on Ebay...J/K the u-hauls did not come that night also the Jackson's said Jewelry and money was taken so who is to be believed...as far as the songs that was no secret and of course Latoya should not be removing those but was it just the hard drive or the whole computer a friend said the other night the kids even got on the net..when I see it on a legal doc I will believe it..

[Xenam]

He singlely changed my whole attitude about what has happened.

He said MJ did NOT want his family in his business, never did. He said he was clear minded and knew exactly what he was doing.

And he as good as said Rowe and Joe are lying; that Rowe did, in fact, get the letter telling him to get lost.

He was the FIRST sane person I have seen involved in this mess!

I agree. DiLeo was one if not THE best friend of MJ. I believe him too! He has been friends with MJ for decades and worked with him in the late 80's. He was one of the few MJ actually trusted. He does think very highly of KJ.

Here's the actual transcript from LKL:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/04/lkl.01.html

[daniel green]

Not for everyday, forever. I think they will be looking for a new house. I just hope the kids don't have to pay for it.

I am sure they will.

[aproudmom]

Jermaine cashes in on Michael’s death

"Michael Jackson has plenty of siblings who depended on him financially, but it’s brother Jermaine who seems to be doing the most to profit from him after his death. "

"Not only has Jermaine struck a deal to release a recording of “Smile,” the song he performed at Michael Jackson’s July 7 public memorial, but now there’s a series of tribute concerts he’s planning. Jermaine made the announcement during a taped interview with Larry King, which airs Aug. 7, according to multiple sources who had access to the interview."

You just GOTTA read the rest of this article! ....eyeroll..........

DISGUSTING!!!! imo

k thanks were is the link

[daniel green]

is it true KJ was pretty much broke? I heard that a while back but did not know if it was true or not...

Living in a "meager Soc Sec" check is what she told the court when she asked for money a couple weeks back.

[Xenam]

I am sure they will.

I would think they can only draw off the children's money for personal expenses and they will get the rest when the become of age? Isn't that how trusts usually work???? If they buy a house it should come out of KJ's share. :confused:

[daniel green]

If this is really the Encino family home, IT IS HUGE. I think there is plenty of room. At least temporarily anyway.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/06/exclusive-jackson-%E2%80%9Cfamily-home%E2%80%9D-underwater

Why did they come, as the article says, within a hair of having it foreclosed?

[aproudmom]

If so...please post the highlights...I can't stand LK and find myself screaming at my TV because he NEVER asks the good questions! (imo)

I need to see if it is..I think it will be 12 or 1 am I usually do not watch him unless it is something good..were did you hear that about Jermaine
first of all sorry guys but I did not like the smile song when he sung it..and he will never be MJ..not even close..JMO

[Xenam]

Didn't he stop managing him after he was abruptly fired by MJ?

He fired Rowe in March and hired DiLeo in May to replace him. That is how we know Rowe and JJ are lying !!!!

[daniel green]

I would think they can only draw off the children's money for personal expenses and they will get the rest when the become of age? Isn't that how trusts usually work???? If they buy a house it should come out of KJ's share. :confused:

No, trusts work different, one from the other. Money for children's living expenses=place to stay.

Katherine Jackson already got money from the estate this week for their care.

[Xenam]

Why did they come, as the article says, within a hair of having it foreclosed?

I posted a link above. When MJ got into money trouble with NL - this house was affected as well in 2006. MJ was making the payments and Janet bailed them out.

[daniel green]

Me too. But children need a room. It can be shared, but IMO every child needs a bed of their own and a few drawers at minimum.

Yep. And that is actually the requirement, as you know well, of all social services and family courts.

[daniel green]

snipped
I realize he have three children - I don't care who the other parent is - and those three children will be needing someone to take care of them for a few years. Why is it some feel they are the only ones who should benefit from the fortune? Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems some feel MJ's family should totally support the children while all for the children be held in trust.

.

Dunno if anyone feels that, but MJ didn't. KJ has already asked for and been given advance money to pay for their expenses.

[Xenam]

No, trusts work different, one from the other. Money for children's living expenses=place to stay.

Katherine Jackson already got money from the estate this week for their care.

But even still it would have to be approved and even if approved would be a small percentage. Even the other day when they went for emergency money the judge did not give them everything they wanted for the children because the judge said it was a duplication of expenses. I don't think the Executors or the Judge will think the children should pay for a house. JMO

[BOZGAL2]

k thanks were is the link



http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/04/jermaine-jackson-smile-apple-ipod-michael-jackson-i-tunes/

Sounds like the attorneys for the estate negotiated the deal.

[aproudmom]

If this is really the Encino family home, IT IS HUGE. I think there is plenty of room. At least temporarily anyway.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/06/exclusive-jackson-%E2%80%9Cfamily-home%E2%80%9D-underwater

yeah that is it..I remember when MJ and Janet bought Joe a huge boat for his B-DAY even though they did not celebrate them they would just call it dads day moms day Janet's day and so on..anyway they got him a huge boat years ago..

[daniel green]

snipped
MJ supported them all his life....and provided for his mother and children only in his will. It was his money and if he wanted to leave it all to Bubbles, he had every right to do so. Had he wanted to provide for his siblings or father, he would have. IMO

I HATE that those children are in Katherine Jackson's custody.

Absolutely. And, gosh, I do hope he left some money to the group taking care of Bubbles and those other poor animals that were at NL.

I hate it, too, that the children are there.

[daniel green]

But even still it would have to be approved and even if approved would be a small percentage. Even the other day when they went for emergency money the judge did not give them everything they wanted for the children because the judge said it was a duplication of expenses. I don't think the Executors or the Judge will think the children should pay for a house. JMO

Paymernt for a house for the children to actually have a room of their own, etc, is not unusual.

A trust does not mean that the kids' money can't be touched until a certain time. Some do, some don't, but I have never seen a trust where the money for the chidlren's care and expenses are not paid for all along.

Duplication of expenses=duplicate receipts for same expense or some such.

[daniel green]

But even still it would have to be approved and even if approved would be a small percentage. snipped

Not really. It will be the ACTUAL costs of their living expenses, including the house, electricity, water, food, medical, day care, dry cleaning, pool maintenance, nanny, school supplies, clothing, gifts, holidays, gas for travel to and from wherever, cost of car, maintenance of said cars, etc. On and on and on and on.

[Xenam]

Paymernt for a house for the children to actually have a room of their own, etc, is not unusual.

A trust does not mean that the kids' money can't be touched until a certain time. Some do, some don't, but I have never seen a trust where the money for the chidlren's care and expenses are not paid for all along.

Duplication of expenses=duplicate receipts for same expense or some such.

OK -- I guess it depends on how it is spelled out in the trust documents and if there were any limitations cited and we are not privy to that.

[daniel green]

Janet saved the Encino home from foreclosure in 2006:

Some good news, though: Jackson returns to the family home in Encino with his mortgage payments up to date. Sources tell me sister Janet Jackson brought his $2.2 million loan current on February 10. The mortgage holder is relieved they don't have to foreclose. Janet Jackson also brought up to date Jackson's overdue payments on storage facilities in Buellton, Calif.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,187406,00.html

What a cluster of financial mismanagement. WOW.:scared:

[Xenam]

Didn't I read somewhere that MJ was making the payments on that house -- I thought Katherine went to court to get some money to pay it.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if MJ didn't own that house -- which would mean the kids own it now.

Yes he was making the payments and basically supporting KJ and the household before he died. When it almost foreclosed in 2006 Janet bailed them out.

[daniel green]

OK -- I guess it depends on how it is spelled out in the trust documents and if there were any limitations cited and we are not privy to that.

Right--but I looked at the actual will and it seemed pretty straight forward on that. But, right, we don't know the terms of the estate.
However, that is SOP.

Which is why it's a cushy deal for the Jackson clan to have the children, as the kids will actually pay for all the household expenses till their majority.

[daniel green]

My understanding was that Katherine would be the legal guardian, but the sister, Rebbie will raise the kids in her home, with her family.

There sure is nothing about that in the finding of the Court. Only said KJ is the guardian. Period.

So add Rebbie and her kids and husband to that 5 bedroom home, too? :scared:

[Imperfect4]

Jermaine cashes in on Michael’s death

"Michael Jackson has plenty of siblings who depended on him financially, but it’s brother Jermaine who seems to be doing the most to profit from him after his death. "

"Not only has Jermaine struck a deal to release a recording of “Smile,” the song he performed at Michael Jackson’s July 7 public memorial, but now there’s a series of tribute concerts he’s planning. Jermaine made the announcement during a taped interview with Larry King, which airs Aug. 7, according to multiple sources who had access to the interview."

You just GOTTA read the rest of this article! ....eyeroll..........

DISGUSTING!!!! imo


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32323435...inment-gossip/

This time with the link;)

This just doesn't surprise me at all ... they've always been like this. They "front" like they're superstars, when the truth is only Michael and Janet qualify. The rest of them are has-beens or never-weres looking to sponge off the fame and fortune of the two who had the staying power in the family.

It's the sense of entitlement and the lack of interest in just getting a damn J.O.B. that's so offensive, imo. Ugh.

[daniel green]

OK -- I guess it depends on how it is spelled out in the trust documents and if there were any limitations cited and we are not privy to that.

I have never heard of a trust naming a guardian for minor children in which there is no actual payment for the living expenses of said children. It is standard language in estates/wills.

[aproudmom]

I think a certain amount could be deducted from theirs for the extra square footage to accommodate them each in their own bedroom as well as extra stuff purchased for them...like a pool, riding stables, an Escalade to to transport them etc... Just guessing tho;)

did they not say they all 3 have a monthly allowance? the other day after court that was the report it did not give the amount only that the Judge made a change to it..

[Xenam]

I know he came back on board...I mean back in the 80's Wasn't he fired?

He was MJ's business manager for tours and he accompanied MJ on his tours during 84-89 and was fired after They did however remain friends.

Here's a pretty good interview that goes into more detail than he did on LKL:

http://site2.mjeol.com/mj-news/frank-dileo-talks-about-michael-and-the-tii-tour.html

[daniel green]

Link originally posted by: daniel green
http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b138...d_jackson.html

"Meanwhile, in other Jackson developments, Rolling Stone reports that estate lawyers are gearing up to send formal requests to sister La Toya to retrieve computer hard drives she lifted from her brother's home in the wake of his death.

According to Frank DiLeo, the late singer's manager, more than 100 songs recorded but never released by Jackson were housed on the hard drives, with the potentially lucrative tunes spanning the decades. Per DiLeo, some of the songs were recorded circa Jackson's peak Bad and Thriller days, while others were much recent and the result of collaborations with will.i.am, Akon and Ne Yo.

The lawyers want to retrieve the hard drives so their contents can be properly logged."



How resourceful that LaToya is...removing his hard drives.... this family never ceases to amaze me. imo

Ain't that somethig else? :w00t::ohmy::confused:

[Xenam]

I have never heard of a trust naming a guardian for minor children in which there is no actual payment for the living expenses of said children. It is standard language in estates/wills.

This is true -- however there are limitations in trusts you can cite not to allow if it would benefit the guardian and of course he may not have had any limitations. I don't know. I had to this for my kids which is why I said it depends on what limitations if any are in the trust. Adding an addition to an exisiting house to accomodate their sleeping/private quarter arrangements are one thing -- but not sure about buying a house with their money 100%. I could understand if they had to contribute but they are not supporting the rest of the family; KJ is and she has her own 40%. Just doesn't sound right. JMO

[Imperfect4]

No, Rebbie has her own home in Las Vegas. KJ is named the guardian, which allows her to place the kids in Rebbie's home. It was reported that this was what all the parties settled on.

So the kids will be raised in Las Vegas?

[daniel green]

snipped In the hours after Michael died, the family cleaned out his Los Angeles house, removing everything including the hard drives. “They thought Michael owned it all, so they took even the rented furniture,” DiLeo said. “That’s who’s going to run his estate?”


http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/06/michael-jackson-left-hard-drives-of-new-songs-80s-recordings/

How very ugly.

So they had Jermaine announce that "my brother, the legendary king of pop" has died, they were hightailing it over there to take even the furniture (not MJ's) out of the house.

What an ugly picture that paints.

[daniel green]

No, Rebbie has her own home in Las Vegas. KJ is named the guardian, which allows her to place the kids in Rebbie's home. It was reported that this was what all the parties settled on.

Please do provide a link for that.

The Judge did not give KJ guardianship and custody of those children so they could move in with a sib in LV.

She and her fam are living in same house that People is calling Hotel For Kids. And, btw, that other boy, Omar is it?, is living there, too. Why on earth is THAT????

[Xenam]

No, Rebbie has her own home in Las Vegas. KJ is named the guardian, which allows her to place the kids in Rebbie's home. It was reported that this was what all the parties settled on.

I don't know that it was actually part of the settlement but it was reported that the kids may stay with Rebbie in Vegas. This is actually the most familiar aunt to them because when MJ stayed in Vegas; Rebbie kept the children then. Don't know what was in the actual settlement but it wasn't mentioned the other night by KJ's custody lawyer.

http://x17online.com/celebrities/michael_jackson/rebbie_jackson_to_look_after_michaels_children-07232009.php

[Imperfect4]

I don't know that it was actually part of the settlement but it was reported that the kids may stay with Rebbie in Vegas. This is actually the most familiar aunt to them because when MJ stayed in Vegas; Rebbie kept the children then.

http://x17online.com/celebrities/michael_jackson/rebbie_jackson_to_look_after_michaels_children-07232009.php

Okay, the plot thickens then, doesn't it? Joe lives in Las Vegas. If the kids move to Vegas, they'll be apt to see Joe more often than Katherine.

This can't be right. Maybe Rebbie is moving back to SoCal?

[daniel green]

Yeah I do. Here is a link to the 53 million, 400 thousand links reporting this. Have fun.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=katherine+jackson%2C+guardian%2C+kids+to+live+wi th+Rebbie&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Oh, OK, so you don't have a link.

And, no, the court did not agree with KJ giving the kids to anyone else.

SHE had custody. You know, which means they are in HER custody.

[daniel green]

Yes...but like I said...exceptions can be made for the "extras" required for raising 3 children, in the manner in which they were accustomed.

It is not an exception. It is the standard language of any trust, that the chidlren's expenses shall be paid for.

[daniel green]

I don't know that it was actually part of the settlement but it was reported that the kids may stay with Rebbie in Vegas. This is actually the most familiar aunt to them because when MJ stayed in Vegas; Rebbie kept the children then. Don't know what was in the actual settlement but it wasn't mentioned the other night by KJ's custody lawyer.

http://x17online.com/celebrities/michael_jackson/rebbie_jackson_to_look_after_michaels_children-07232009.php

It makes no difference what the parties talked about or what anyone said the parties talked about. Heck, last week it was how the children adored Janet and would go to her.

What matters is what the judge ORDERED. And it was permanent custory to KJ.

In fact, that crazy affidavit Joe Jackson filed with the court, for whatever reason, says that KJ will have sole custody and will be in charge of raising the kids.

[Xenam]

I think now we know why it took so long for the official announcement that day: they were looting the house before anybody knew!

If they move it, they probably thought it wasn't part of his estate since it wasn't there to be inventoried. The day she died, my mother had me writing out checks to everybody in the family.

That is not quite true. The police actually released the house to them two (2) days after MJ's death and there is no reason why they couldn't take out MJ's personal belongings. His death had not been ruled a homicde and the coroner said it did not appear to be foul play. LAPD should have locked down the house until the autopsy was completed; major error on their part. I think they did the right thing -- if not very tempting to burglars. However, I do believe that anything taken should have been inventoried and given to the Executors and even being escorted by LAPD. JMO

[daniel green]

Perhaps you are confusing your facts, and are mistaken.
:closedeyes:


Except I am not.

[daniel green]

I think now we know why it took so long for the official announcement that day: they were looting the house before anybody knew!

If they move it, they probably thought it wasn't part of his estate since it wasn't there to be inventoried. The day she died, my mother had me writing out checks to everybody in the family.

I so agree with that.

Awful, really. Just awful.

Taking even the hard-drives. But can you imagine THAT is what you're thinking about when your son/brother has just died, unexpectedly? :scared:

[aproudmom]

Night all got to jump off here and search for a fallen solder from Pittsburgh..BIL just called his escort team is leaving out of FT Knox..to escort the body..Keep the families in your prayers please this is getting to be a normal call in the past 3 weeks:crying:

talk to you all later thanks for all the great post and opinions..:wub:

[Xenam]

My child also has a trust that I set up. It's a "special needs" trust with trustees. It can be touched for just about anything I, along with the trustees deem he needs. Like education, car, pool, etc... I could use it to buy a car for myself as I am a stay at home mom and it's primary use is to taxi him. I wouldn't touch it for that...but I could.

I specifically set it up the way I did for tax purposes as well as I didn't want him getting a huge lump when he turned 18. This way his entire life is basically well financed.

If I should die, the already established trustees will continue.

Understood SC. Not disagreeing -- just saying I don't know how MJ's trust is set up; you can set limitations. The Executors and the Trustees are one in the same which is one of the reasons KJ is balking. She has to go to them for everything for the children. The reason the Judge had to get involved this last time is because right now the Executors/Trustees are considered temporary (60 days) until this is all resolved.

[daniel green]

This is true -- however there are limitations in trusts you can cite not to allow if it would benefit the guardian and of course he may not have had any limitations. snipped

It's just difficult to leave out the guardian if the kids have to have a house, dry cleaning, maids, nanny, car, gas, electricity, food, medical, gifts, restaurant money, whatever.

[daniel green]

Well, it's hard to think greedy when you're not.

I can't even wrap my head around it, I really can't. I know I come from a tradition of sitting Shivah and not speaking about the dead, but going to loot a house like that???????

[daniel green]

snipped


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/23/michael-jackson-rebbie-jackson-kids-paris-michael-jr-cutsody/

ps: Do you happen to have a link to the court order?

Speculation from July 23rd.

Just like TMZ speculated that Janet, who the kids allegedly ADORE, was going to raise them.

Here is what actually happened, as we all know:

A Los Angeles judge today awarded permanent custody of Michael Jackson's three children to his mother Katherine Jackson, who also is to receive a monthly stipend to care for the brood. The custody decision reflects the late pop legend's will. Judge Mitchell Beckloff awarded visitation rights to Debbie Rowe, the mother of Jackson's two eldest children. Rowe's attorneys agreed Katherine Jackson should have temporary custody of the children but sought to delay a permanent ruling, website TMZ reported. The amount of Katherine Jackson's allowance, paid out of her son's estate, was not revealed. Rowe is to continue to receive alimony payments agreed to by Michael Jackson.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/aug/03/katherine-jackson-custody-children

[Xenam]

Oh I agree with you. We just don't know. I spent literally HOURS with my attorney to pour over all the options to set up a trust. It was mind boggling and it took me weeks...and about 15 phone calls back to the lawyer.. to finally decide. LOL I sorta went through the same balking..when I didn't name my husband as a trustee. ;)

Tell me about it. And each phone call and meeting costs you $ too! LOL

ETA: Goodnight SC; sleep well

[daniel green]

The trustee must act in the beneficiary's best interests and follow your written instructions. Generally, the trustee can spend trust money for the young person's health, education, and living expenses. When the child reaches the age you specified, the trustee ends the trust and gives whatever is left of the trust property to the beneficiary.

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/3/objectId/2F1CE9BD-99BE-43AF-AF62B1DFB3E56D11/catId/F251EA55-13A9-4EE0-85D21CEB27636030/309/298/ART/

I don't have the energy to look for more links right now, but the standard language in Trusts is to say that the expenses of the children shall be paid until their majority.

[daniel green]

If your sibling is Michael Jackson, it might very well be what they were thinking, knowing that his assets have been a target by the vultures his entire life. snipped

Actually, I did not want to use that word, but it is exactly the term that came to my mind when I think of them swooping down on their dead son's rented house to cart everything out.

And, no, if my sib were MJ, may he RIP, I would not have thought to do that and I can assure you that neither would my parents nor anyone in my family.

I have never heard of such a thing. Well, with the exception of a woman who sold her deceased husband's boat during his wake/viewing. Literally. Signed the sale papers there. My ex huband represented his children during the trial, in which it was shown she faked his will leaving them out and making herself and her grown child from a previous relationship the sole beneficiary.

[Xenam]

Speculation from July 23rd.

Just like TMZ speculated that Janet, who the kids allegedly ADORE, was going to raise them.

Here is what actually happened, as we all know:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/aug/03/katherine-jackson-custody-children

All of the rumors TMZ posted were prior to the court hearing on 8/3.

The article linked to the Guardian above is also based on TMZ's reporting except they failed to update this statement from your link:

Rowe's attorneys agreed Katherine Jackson should have temporary custody of the children but sought to delay a permanent ruling, website TMZ reported.

From TMZ:

12:37 -- The judge just named Katherine permanent guardian of all three kids.

12:26 -- Debbie Rowe's lawyer, Eric George, just said he won't object to Katherine being appointed temporary guardian, but permanent guardianship could be delayed. It's curious given the supposed settlement between Debbie and Katherine.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/michael-jackson-estate-hearing-guardianship-debbie-rowe/

[daniel green]

I used the term "looting" and I'll stand by the statement: when you're taking things out of his house when his body is still warm, you're not really grieving. IMO, of course.

I stand by mine, as well. When you are so clear-headed that you are taking out the hard-drives that his executors are now telling you to give up, well, looting is a nice term for it.

[Xenam]

Ok ...right. TMZ has been the first source of all the information that has been reported by all the news agencies. Then suddenly tonight, TMZ is just speculating and you cite a foreign news source to support your view. Where did you see a copy of the court order? I would be interested in reading it as well.

The foreign paper linked to also relied on TMZ's reporting. All of them do. LOL

Seriously though the rumors about Janet and Rebbie were reported by TMZ prior to the court hearing but as you say don't know what the actual settlement says as it may give permission for the siblings to assist. Not unheard of especially since KJ is 80 years old. JMO

[daniel green]

It's obvious that any "agreement" was null and void given that Debbie R was asking for something else from the court and Dr K came in.

And what the court granted was reported by the AP and a zillion places. Mrs J was given permanent custody and DR given visitation.

[daniel green]

All of the rumors TMZ posted were prior to the court hearing on 8/3.

snipped

Right. Aguendo's link from Jul 26 saying Rebbie would raise them and a week and a half ago that Janet would did not come to fruition.

[Xenam]

It's obvious that any "agreement" was null and void given that Debbie R was asking for something else from the court and Dr K came in.

And what the court granted was reported by the AP and a zillion places. Mrs J was given permanent custody and DR given visitation.

What does Dr. K have to do with the agreement between KJ and DR? He tried to insert himself into the proceedings and the Judge told him straight out he had no legal standing. :confused:

It just sounds like DR's lawyer may have had a concern. You can see an 11 minute gap here where they probably had a sidebar and Dr. K protested first. I do not believe it negated the agreement.


12:37 -- The judge just named Katherine permanent guardian of all three kids.

12:26 -- Debbie Rowe's lawyer, Eric George, just said he won't object to Katherine being appointed temporary guardian, but permanent guardianship could be delayed. It's curious given the supposed settlement between Debbie and Katherine.

12:24 -- The judge just said Klein has no legal standing to lodge an objection ... that Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe are the parents.

12:18 -- The judge wants to know what legal standing Klein has -- this could force the issue over whether he's the daddy.

[Xenam]

When a family member dies, there are certain things that have to be dealt with, like the funeral, burial, cremation..whatever. Things that generally require a clear head. Shock might even help in that process. It is only after these necessary tasks are dealt with, can a love one break into pieces. At least that is how its approached within my family.


Are you a taurus by chance?

I am :biggrin:

If my brother was MJ I'd be at his house taking out his personal belongings as well. Why leave the stuff there for vultures or for potential burglars? No telling who had keys to the place. They did the right thing. Just should have been inventoried and turned over to the Executors. LAPD released the house to them; nothing wrong with what they did. JMO

[daniel green]

Michael Jackson's mother was granted permanent custody of the singer's three children Monday, ending one of the court battles that had been brewing since the pop star's death. Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff approved the agreement reached last week by attorneys for Katherine Jackson and Debbie Rowe, mother of the two older children, in which the children will be raised by their grandmother and Rowe keeps visitation and legal parental rights

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson4-2009aug04,0,1495792.story

In court Monday morning, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff approved Jackson's guardianship petition, saying it was in the "best interest of the children." Beckloff stated in court that the two older children, Prince and Paris, and Jackson's estranged husband, Joe Jackson, all signed consent forms supporting Jackson's bid for guardianship. The judge also granted Katherine Jackson's full request for an allowance for her. But Beckloff only granted her 83.5 percent of the amount she requested to go toward raising the kids, saying there was some "duplication." Monetary figures were sealed and not released to the public.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=8239770&page=1

[daniel green]

IMO, it's a charitable term to use.

snipped.

Oh, I quite agree that it is a charitable term.

[daniel green]

A judge granted permanent custody of Michael Jackson’s three children to his mother, Katherine Jackson, in a wide-ranging probate hearing on Monday that also addressed the administration of his estate. Mitchell Beckloff of Los Angeles Superior Court also ruled that Mrs. Jackson and the children would be paid a maintenance allowance based on what they were receiving before Mr. Jackson died on June 25. The allowance amounts were kept secret, but the judge granted 83.5 percent of what lawyers sought for the children and all of what Mrs. Jackson’s lawyers asked. Still at issue is who will control Mr. Jackson’s estate. His will says proceeds of recordings, publishing rights and other assets will be split mainly among his mother, his children and charities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/us/04jackson.html?_r=1

But that is not, apparently enough. Mrs J wants to be the EXECUTOR as well. Going against her son's wishes.

[Xenam]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson4-2009aug04,0,1495792.story

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=8239770&page=1

And from your link:

Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff approved the agreement reached last week by attorneys for Katherine Jackson and Debbie Rowe

[daniel green]

And from your link:

Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff approved the agreement reached last week by attorneys for Katherine Jackson and Debbie Rowe

Yes, I read that when I posted it.

[daniel green]

I thought I heard tonight that he will be buried at Forest Lawn. Its their decision, whether it makes sense to you or not.

Well goodness gracious, nobody is disputing it's their decision.

All anyone is saying is that it's a mighty strange one, not to have burried their child all this time.

[daniel green]

The article also misstated the executors’ estimated worth of Mr. Jackson’s estate. Its value is put at between $500 million (according to the executors) and $2 billion (according to Mr. Jackson’s family) — not $500,000 to $2 billion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/us/06editorsnote.html

[Xenam]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/us/04jackson.html?_r=1

But that is not, apparently enough. Mrs J wants to be the EXECUTOR as well. Going against her son's wishes.

According to McMillan on LKL the other night he said he wanted to include her as a possible 3rd co-executor and also to include her as a trustee. However, I do agree that hopefully the Judge will leave it as is.

From your link too:

L. Londell McMillan, a lawyer for Mrs. Jackson, said Mr. Branca and Mr. McClain should include Mrs. Jackson as a trustee.

[daniel green]

Considering the reported $400 million in debt he carried at the time of his death, it's no wonder the administrators of Michael Jackson's estate are planning to roll out tons of merchandise to cash in on the current interest in the late pop star. According to a Los Angeles Times report, estate administrators have sketched out plans for everything from a major motion picture to a TV special, tribute concert and reams of MJ tie-ins ranging from Second Life-ready tattoos to high-end clothing and USB drives.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1617736/20090806/jackson_michael.jhtml

[Xenam]

I lost my old children at 27 to accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.

I can assure you I didn't give one thought to his "things" for weeks.

Sincerely sorry for your loss :rose:

I can understand the Jacksons removing his personal belongings. No telling who had a key to that place and I am sure the vultures and burglars were laying in wait. Again though I do believe whatever they removed should have been inventoried and turned over to the Executors. JMO

[daniel green]

Oh, Howlin, that just crushes my heart to hear of your loss. I am very saddened to hear that.

[Xenam]

Londell would love to get his foot in the door; he was all over TV talking about what they were going to do until Branca came back from vacation and produced the real will.

The judge has sent the will to probate; that means he has accepted it as the legitimate will; she's not going to get anything except statements from the executors; that's the way Michael wanted it.

I totally agree with you; no argument here !!!

[ABC]

I lost my old children at 27 to accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.

I can assure you I didn't give one thought to his "things" for weeks.
My heart understands and empathizes with your pain. So tragic, its unbearable. :rose::rose:

[daniel green]

I don't call it jaded. I call it realistic. There is a history with this family and one cannot ignore history. The facts are all out there and have been for years.

[daniel green]

It saddens me so badly to hear about this, Howlin. Your only child, too. So, so sorry.

And yes worldly things don't even enter one's mind.

Take care, Howlin.

[daniel green]

I surely will.

Did I see you say you were in NC?

Yes, Charlotte. (The selling the boat at the wake case happened in Durham)

[Xenam]

Good night !!! See you all tomorrow. :seeya:

[Themis]

In MJ's dysfuctional family...it's my opinion he was severely mentally and physically abused by his father while his mother stood by and allowed it.....all so the children could support them. I think the root of all of MJ's issues was his family.

MJ supported them all his life....and provided for his mother and children only in his will. It was his money and if he wanted to leave it all to Bubbles, he had every right to do so. Had he wanted to provide for his siblings or father, he would have. IMO

I HATE that those children are in Katherine Jackson's custody.
I agree with you. If in the prime of her life, Katherine Jackson could not -- or would not -- protect Michael from abuse then how can anyone expect KJ can and will do so at age 79? [JMO * Themis]

[Emerald]

"The Jacksons" are not legally MJ's next of kin. His children are.

I'm glad the estate has non-Family members as sole trustees.

[flipflop]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8265550


"They backed up trucks, removing everything," DiLeo was quoted as telling the magazine in its issue that hits newsstands on Friday. "They thought Michael owned it all, so they took even the rented furniture. That's who's going to run his estate?"



OOPs. I guess that answers someones question about if the home he lived in was furnished.

[GentleBreeze]

If this is really the Encino family home, IT IS HUGE. I think there is plenty of room. At least temporarily anyway.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/06/exclusive-jackson-%E2%80%9Cfamily-home%E2%80%9D-underwater

That sure is a huge house.

Long way from a two bedroom, one bath, tiny home they had in Gary, Indiana when the Jackson children were there.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

It doesn't have to make sense to me; I just figured they are trying to find a way to make the most $$$ off his body.

Isn't Forest Lawn known for being very private?

imo

[ellegna]

In MJ's dysfunctional family...it's my opinion he was severely mentally and physically abused by his father while his mother stood by and allowed it.....all so the children could support them. I think the root of all of MJ's issues was his family.

MJ supported them all his life....and provided for his mother and children only in his will. It was his money and if he wanted to leave it all to Bubbles, he had every right to do so. Had he wanted to provide for his siblings or father, he would have. IMO

I HATE that those children are in Katherine Jackson's custody.

Absolutely agree.

I happened to learn a bit about the JW from a coworker who was a member. Some of the stories she told made me livid. One was the father was the absolute authority figure in the family. If that was the case, that may explain why KJ stood by and allowed Joe to emotionally and physically abuse the kids. If KJ intervened, she would be violating the JW principles.

I am not too happy KJ has sole guardianship either.

Michael stopped being a Jehovah's Witness 1985 but reportedly resumed attending the Church’s meetings throughout his child molestation trial. Katherine and the eldest child Rebbie are the only two remaining Jehovah's Witnesses in the family. Speaking of which, we’re told that Katherine had “no control” and was less-than-impressed with the recent memorial service that took place in MJ’s honor at the Los Angeles Staples Center.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534216,00.html


I don't have the links handy but I recall Liz Taylor decorating MJ's home for Christmas. Something MJ never experienced as a JW.
Around the time of the memorial, Paris asked Mark Lester if they could spend Christmas with him and his family.
If KJ and Rebbie raise MJ's children as JW to the letter, those children will no longer be allowed to celebrate birthdays, Christmas or any other festivity that is forbidden under JW principles.
How do you explain to children that everything you did or experienced while your father was alive will no longer be permitted?
Will that not have a negative psychological impact on them?

[Citygirl]

The whole Jackson family have been livin off MJ or tryin to..for years now..
I don't know of another family of a celebrity that does not have meaningful jobs of their own..for all these years..and expect their famous relative to keep supporting their life style and family from the grave.
I do hope the Judge upholds MJ's will..if he had wanted to leave anything to LaToya or Jermain or Tito or certainly his father..he would have..
It's time they grew up and started supporting themselves and their own families.

[flipflop]

Jackson Insurance Policy May Be Worthless

Posted Aug 7th 2009 9:48AM by TMZ Staff

It looks like the insurance policy taken out on Michael Jackson to cover tens of millions of dollars in losses in the event of the singer's death may be a bust.

The Lloyd's of London policy -- taken out by AEG in case Jackson didn't perform his London concerts -- did not cover death related to illegal drug use. According to the policy, obtained by the L.A. Times, "This insurance does not cover any loss directly or indirectly arising out of, contributed, to, by or resulting from ... the illegal possession or illicit taking of drugs and their effects."


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/07/jackson-insurance-policy-may-be-worthless/

[GentleBreeze]

But even still it would have to be approved and even if approved would be a small percentage. Even the other day when they went for emergency money the judge did not give them everything they wanted for the children because the judge said it was a duplication of expenses. I don't think the Executors or the Judge will think the children should pay for a house. JMO

Even though he approved only around 85% of what they had listed it is probably enough money to make our heads spin around.:w00t:

He may. If they cannot live comfortably where they are and need a bigger space to accommodate them all he can consider it if they put in a new motion but I dont think they are going to move anywhere.

He has to give them enough money according to how they were raised when being with their father. He will not expect them to go without what they are accustom to having, imo.

I think the amount settled upon is humongous but this isn't just any ordinary family, children or Estate.

imo

[mrsmcgoo]

The whole Jackson family have been livin off MJ or tryin to..for years now..
I don't know of another family of a celebrity that does not have meaningful jobs of their own..for all these years..and expect their famous relative to keep supporting their life style and family from the grave.
I do hope the Judge upholds MJ's will..if he had wanted to leave anything to LaToya or Jermain or Tito or certainly his father..he would have..
It's time they grew up and started supporting themselves and their own families.

:thumbsup: You said it girl!!

They certainly need to show MJ some respect in death and get him buried, that is if they care about him as much as they claim too. Money is the root of all evil and this family is taking that phrase to the extreme in my eyes.

JMO

[Xenam]

"The Jacksons" are not legally MJ's next of kin. His children are.

I'm glad the estate has non-Family members as sole trustees.

I agree with you re: the estate having a non-family member as executor and trustee however I disagree with you re: next of kin.

Next of kin are the closest blood relatives and there is an order within the blood relatives which would be the surviving spouse, children, parents and then brothers and sisters. All are considered next of kin with surviving spouse and children of course having a superior right.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/next+of+kin

[Xenam]

Even though he approved only around 85% of what they had listed it is probably enough money to make our heads spin around.:w00t:

He may. If they cannot live comfortably where they are and need a bigger space to accommodate them all he can consider it if they put in a new motion but I dont think they are going to move anywhere.

He has to give them enough money according to how they were raised when being with their father. He will not expect them to go without what they are accustom to having, imo.

I think the amount settled upon is humongous but this isn't just any ordinary family, children or Estate.

imo

Good morning :)

The post you responded to is one of a couple that I made on this subject. I agree that if a home is not large enough to accomodate the needs of the children that they contribute to the purchase of a new home -- but do you think they would have to contribute 100%?

[Xenam]

Jackson Insurance Policy May Be Worthless

Posted Aug 7th 2009 9:48AM by TMZ Staff

It looks like the insurance policy taken out on Michael Jackson to cover tens of millions of dollars in losses in the event of the singer's death may be a bust.

The Lloyd's of London policy -- taken out by AEG in case Jackson didn't perform his London concerts -- did not cover death related to illegal drug use. According to the policy, obtained by the L.A. Times, "This insurance does not cover any loss directly or indirectly arising out of, contributed, to, by or resulting from ... the illegal possession or illicit taking of drugs and their effects."


http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/07/jackson-insurance-policy-may-be-worthless/

I wonder if this would apply in this case though. Just say they find diprivan and demerol in his system. If the result of death say is found to be the combination of diprivan and demerol wouldn't that be an accidental death? Neither drug is illegal - it was just the combination of them. JMO

This happened to Heath Ledger as well and his lawyers fought the insurance company and the insurance was paid because it was the combination of prescription drugs that caused an accidental death.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/29/heath-ledger-life-insurance-case-settled/

http://www.tmz.com/2008/09/29/ledgers-life-insurance-co-suicide-no-cash/

[GentleBreeze]

Good morning :)

The post you responded to is one of a couple that I made on this subject. I agree that if a home is not large enough to accomodate the needs of the children that they contribute to the purchase of a new home -- but do you think they would have to contribute 100%?

No, I dont think so. So will Katherine imo but really this estate is going to be so huge it sure wont devastate the funds of either one of them.

The thing is the Judge is very well aware of KJs living arrangements in her home before she became guardian of MJs children. He knows she has a right, if she wishes for the ones to stay there that lived there before she became guardian. He can't tell her that the others need to move out imo, to make more room.

I dont think they will want to move at all. Now with the place having 10,000 SF in it I imagine these 5 bedrooms arent anywhere typical bedrooms in size. She may ask the court to approve any remodeling such as putting in walls to make two bedrooms out of one or something of that nature. :smile:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I wonder if this would apply in this case though. Just say they find diprivan and demerol in his system. If the result of death say is found to be the combination of diprivan and demerol wouldn't that be an accidental death? Neither drug is illegal - it was just the combination of them. JMO

This happened to Heath Ledger as well and his lawyers fought the insurance company and the insurance was paid because it was the combination of prescription drugs that caused an accidental death.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/29/heath-ledger-life-insurance-case-settled/

http://www.tmz.com/2008/09/29/ledgers-life-insurance-co-suicide-no-cash/

Imo, the insurance is going to pay.

Propovol is not an illegal drug and it isn't even a controlled substance and if a licensed doctor prescribed Demerol for him then that is not illegal either.

imo

[Eagleeye]

I wonder if this would apply in this case though. Just say they find diprivan and demerol in his system. If the result of death say is found to be the combination of diprivan and demerol wouldn't that be an accidental death? Neither drug is illegal - it was just the combination of them. JMO

This happened to Heath Ledger as well and his lawyers fought the insurance company and the insurance was paid because it was the combination of prescription drugs that caused an accidental death.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/29/heath-ledger-life-insurance-case-settled/

http://www.tmz.com/2008/09/29/ledgers-life-insurance-co-suicide-no-cash/

Sorry but Demerol is a Class II narcotic which is an illegal drug to have unless perscribed. It is as dangerous as Morphine. Demerol is a synonym of Meperidine. It is most definitely a controlled substance.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/listby_sched/sched2.htm

[GentleBreeze]

Simple solution would be to get rid of all the free loaders and take care of MJ's children. I believe most of the free loaders are adults now anyway including most of the other grandkids ect. The ones who may not be, their parents should make a home for them.

jmo

The Judge knows KJ does not have to desert the rest of her family, including other grandchildren, just to be guardian of three of her grandchildren. It is solely up to her who lives in her home just like it was before she became guardian.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Sorry but Demerol is a Class II narcotic which is an illegal drug to have unless perscribed. It is as dangerous as Morphine. Demerol is a synonym of Meperidine.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/listby_sched/sched2.htm

I think they are going to find it had been prescribed to him by a licensed doctor.

imo

[Xenam]

Sorry but Demerol is a Class II narcotic which is an illegal drug to have unless perscribed. It is as dangerous as Morphine. Demerol is a synonym of Meperidine. It is most definitely a controlled substance.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/listby_sched/sched2.htm

Any controlled substance is illegal if obtained without a prescription. My post was presuming he had a prescription for it and it is also highly possible that he did have one. JMO

[Xenam]

I didn't say anything in regard to this and the judge. How would making adult grandkids and the sibs support themselves be deserting them? Time for them to take care of themselves anyway.

Paris is becoming a young lady. She needs her privacy in a house full of males.

Children services may have something to say about this. So might DR.

in my opinion

They've already had visits from the DCS. I would think they turned in their report prior to KJ getting permanent custody. IMO I also think it is possible that she has her own room or is sharing one with the female cousin that was already living there.

The grandchildren that live with KJ are NOT grown. They are the children of Jermaine and Randy. Jermaine is also married to a wealthy woman, Halima Rashid
To my knowledge he does not live in Encino either. JMO

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/341217/jermaine_jackson_exwife_seeks_alimony_pg2.html

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Jermajesty-Jackson-Jermaine-Jackson/photo/090724/482/63a62fd0307b444ba8ccecb09ab17609/

http://www.zimbio.com/Janet+Jackson/articles/emSjTM6mB8a/Halima+Rashid+Pictures+wife+Jermaine+Jackson

[Unperson1984]

Imo, the insurance is going to pay.

Propovol is not an illegal drug and it isn't even a controlled substance and if a licensed doctor prescribed Demerol for him then that is not illegal either.

imo

So you no longer believe Murray committed a crime by using Propovol in a home setting?

[Xenam]

No, I dont think so. So will Katherine imo but really this estate is going to be so huge it sure wont devastate the funds of either one of them.

The thing is the Judge is very well aware of KJs living arrangements in her home before she became guardian of MJs children. He knows she has a right, if she wishes for the ones to stay there that lived there before she became guardian. He can't tell her that the others need to move out imo, to make more room.

I dont think they will want to move at all. Now with the place having 10,000 SF in it I imagine these 5 bedrooms arent anywhere typical bedrooms in size. She may ask the court to approve any remodeling such as putting in walls to make two bedrooms out of one or something of that nature. :smile:

imo

Yes -- they do have other rooms that can be converted/remodeled to make more bedrooms. I doubt KJ would want to move anyway -- she is 80 years old and moving is a huge task and she did raise 8 children in that home. JMO

[Xenam]

I don't think there were any visits from DCJ. The guardianshiip was granted on a settlement between the parties and approved by the judge. it never went to court as a dispute.

If true Jermaine has a rich wife, then it's time to move his kids out of grandma's house and with him. Same with Randy. There are some adult nephews living there.

JMO

Link to any grown grandchildren living there! There are NO grown grandchildren living there. She has 5 grandchildren with her - 3 of Randy's and two of Jermaine's. All are minors.

Yes there was a visit. It has also been posted in the forum for quite some time. They visited before the very first court date - we are just not privy to their findings. JMO

http://www.accesshollywood.com/children-and-family-services-investigating-welfare-of-michael-jacksons-children_article_20165

[solar]

Yes, the house was always owned by MJ. That's how it was saved from Katherine and Joe's bankruptcy. They were tenants in that house. It does belong to the estate. Katherine is still a tenant. Jermaine has always needed a job. The kids own that house and they will be staying. There is no reason for them to finance a new house for a bunch of moochers. Most all of the moochers living there are adults now anyway. jmo

in my opinion


If the home is owned by the estates trust, Mrs. Jackson would also be included as a owner as she is a named beneficiary in that trust.

I am sure I don't know what Jermaine or any other of the Jackson's do for a living, but if their Mother chooses to help any of her children or grandchildren that is her perogative. I don't see how that is mooching.

Maybe they believe that as a family they should take care of each other.

imo

solar

[GentleBreeze]

So you no longer believe Murray committed a crime by using Propovol in a home setting?

I believe he caused a negligent homicide by improperly administering Diprivan and failing to monitor his patient closely which led to these end results imo.

I have not seen any actual law where it prevents it from being used in a particular place. This stuff isn't even a controlled substance and sits right among the band-aids and gauze at hospitals.

So I think it is iffy as to what really cannot be done or where, by law, when it comes to this particular drug.


imo

[Eagleeye]

I think they are going to find it had been prescribed to him by a licensed doctor.

imo

"However, most relevant to the Jackson case is that propofol can cause cardiac tachyarrhythmias (rhythmic disturbances at high heart rate), especially in people predisposed to cardiac problems.

As I wrote last week in my blog post on Demerol ® (meperidine) (http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php), Jackson's reported long-term use of this analgesic for back pain may have already primed him for cardiac problems due to the accumulation of a toxic metabolite, normeperidine. However - and please note - that while all of my pharmacology/toxicology discussion is based in science and medicine, any extrapolation to the Michael Jackson case and the cause of his death is speculation at this point. I only have access to the reports regarding his potential drug exposure that all of you do. Only time will tell what is the truth once the full autopsy and toxicology reports are released."[quote]

http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php (http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php)

Being perscribed by a licensed Dr. makes no difference if it is not used properly. Dr. Murray was aware of MJ's use of Demerol as it was found in his room. The combination of both drugs unless carefully monitored can and most likely contributed to his death. As the article says it is speculation but we shall see, if and when the Tox Report is ever published.

[Xenam]

Isn't Forest Lawn known for being very private?

imo

According to Tito the body is at Forest Lawn but not sure he was buried. Jim Moret said this on LKL the other night:

KING: Any idea where he is going to be buried?

DILEO: No.

KING: Why the mystery?

MORET: The mystery, because the toxicology report is not done and that brain tissue has not been released back to the family. They can't really bury him until he is whole. Simple as that. I think there is still a division in the family between Neverland and somewhere else.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/04/lkl.01.html

[GentleBreeze]

Link to any grown grandchildren living there! There are NO grown grandchildren living there. She has 5 grandchildren with her - 3 of Randy's and two of Jermaine's. All are minors.

Yes there was a visit. It has also been posted in the forum for quite some time. They visited before the very first court date - we are just not privy to their findings. JMO

http://www.accesshollywood.com/children-and-family-services-investigating-welfare-of-michael-jacksons-children_article_20165

But we do know that the living conditions were acceptable since the Judge awarded Katherine full custody of MJs children. Imo, they passed with flying colors.

imo

[Lavinia]

Sorry. I thought when you said you had SIX great grandchildren, that would make you a great grandma? My mistake.



"my husband has two wonderful daughters and we have SIX great grandchildren"

Did she say great as in "wonderful"? Like I have SIX wonderful grandchildren? :shrug:

[Citygirl]

It always amazes me how some people think they have a right to dictate how complete strangers should live their lives or who they should live their lives with.
:confused:


The poster you are referring to has as much right to their opinion as you do..if she/he feels the moochers should get a life..that's her/his feelings. I happen to agree and that is my opinion. Gestapo rules don't apply here.

[CinderL.]

Good morning :)

The post you responded to is one of a couple that I made on this subject. I agree that if a home is not large enough to accomodate the needs of the children that they contribute to the purchase of a new home -- but do you think they would have to contribute 100%?

Haven't there been many child stars that have bought the family home with their earnings? The parents saying it was for the child?

[Eagleeye]

Huh, what are you talking about. Of course I would think a complete home study would be ordered by the court if there is a dispute to custody. Noi just the check of the drug situation right after the death. jmo

In disputes of custody a Guardian ad Litum is appointed by the Judge to evaluate the conditions of the children in the home. Child Protective Services would not have been necessary unless someone reported abuse of the children.

Since a GAL was not appointed and no CPS intervention, the Judge IMO made the right decision to put the children in the right place. And may I add the settlement agreement trumped everything else.

[Xenam]

I found this interesting. You can take demerol when receiving diprivan - just that the diprivan's dosage would have to be reduced:

The induction dose requirements of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion may be reduced in patients with intramuscular or intravenous premedication, particularly with narcotics (e.g., morphine, meperidine, and fentanyl, etc.) and combinations of opioids and sedatives (e.g., benzodiazepines, barbiturates, chloral hydrate, droperidol, etc.). These agents may increase the anesthetic or sedative effects of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion and may also result in more pronounced decreases in systolic, diastolic, and mean arterial pressures and cardiac output.


http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm#

[Xenam]

snipped from your link

DCFS was alerted after Jackson’s live-in physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, gave Emergency Room personnel a list of medications his patient had been taking. A person familiar with the investigation told Access that the list reflected a “copious amount of drugs.”

After Jackson’s death, the children were taken to the Jackson family compound in Encino, Calif., where they are under the care of family matriarch, Katherine Jackson, and other family members.
---------------------------------------


DCFS were alerted to the drugs. Where does it say there was an entire home study done for guardianship. At the time, the children were taken to KJ's house temporarily. imo

That was just a part of their investigation. You did not read far enough. These people are trained. They would note and report any adverse findings in the home. They probably did not do an extensive home study but they would have to report their findings. Also in the link I posted: JMO

The investigators will also look into conditions at the Encino house, such as who would care for the children should Katherine not be available.

[Xenam]

For the temporary arrangement. KJ did have sleeping bags for them. Temporarily, probably one of the herd living there would be available if KJ became incapacitated.

in my opinion

I'm not going to argue with you. Whether temporary or permanent -- they looked into the conditions at the Jacksons' home. Any red flags would have been noted. The sleeping bags were probably temporary until permanent beds were bought. This was unexpected. The use of the word "herd" is harsh - don't cha think? What herd are you referring to - as that word is used to describe animals IMO. As mentioned before she has 5 minor grandchildren living with her. JMO

[mrsmcgoo]

Just saw this story from Associated Press, who I consider a very reliable source.



AP source: Jackson doc gave sedatives before death

From link: "The law enforcement official said Demerol was not found in Jackson's home, but the official said a large amount of propofol and several types of benzodiazepines were in a walk-in closet and the room where Jackson slept his last night.

Benzodiazepines, the "mother's little helper" Mick Jagger sang about, include such widely used antianxiety drugs as Valium and Xanax, as well as Ativan and Versed. The law enforcement official wouldn't name which benzodiazepines Murray told investigators he gave Jackson."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMkoNA7ANMxeUu2iZ9hdf_Vr1FfQD99U52L03

[Xenam]

Just saw this story from Associated Press, who I consider a very reliable source.



AP source: Jackson doc gave sedatives before death

From link: "The law enforcement official said Demerol was not found in Jackson's home, but the official said a large amount of propofol and several types of benzodiazepines were in a walk-in closet and the room where Jackson slept his last night.

Benzodiazepines, the "mother's little helper" Mick Jagger sang about, include such widely used antianxiety drugs as Valium and Xanax, as well as Ativan and Versed. The law enforcement official wouldn't name which benzodiazepines Murray told investigators he gave Jackson."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMkoNA7ANMxeUu2iZ9hdf_Vr1FfQD99U52L03

It all fits mrsmcgoo. See my post# 250. I think now what happened is that he did not reduce the amount of diprivan accordingly. :ohmy:

[Eagleeye]

By "herd" do you mean one of the grieving family members?

Of course she meant the family members unless of course there is a herd of buffalo roaming around KJ's home. :laugh:

[Xenam]

Here is a link for you. Check out attachment 8. A whole lot of adult nephews living there I would say.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0701091mjwill8.html

No -- apparently MJ didn't know their exact addresses and just showed his mother's. Not uncommon in a will. :rolleyes:

[mrsmcgoo]

It all fits mrsmcgoo. See my post# 250. I think now what happened is that he did not reduce the amount of diprivan accordingly. :ohmy:

Yes, I think it is a combination. But the question will be, was Dr. Murray fully aware of all the drugs and amounts MJ was taking? Any charges will be very hard to prove, given MJ was quite capable of taking a pill on his own.

I was thinking also, it would have been extremely painful to be given drugs intervenisly (?) (sorry for spelling). I wonder if perhaps MJ had a butterfly somewhere for ease? I can't imagine if the reports are true that a Dr. would not have this in place and would put a patient through the pain. I can imagine that MJ would be requesting this, and it appears he always got what he wanted, and of course we have read about the reports of his veins being collapsed.

JMO

[Lavinia]

I found this interesting. You can take demerol when receiving diprivan - just that the diprivan's dosage would have to be reduced:

The induction dose requirements of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion may be reduced in patients with intramuscular or intravenous premedication, particularly with narcotics (e.g., morphine, meperidine, and fentanyl, etc.) and combinations of opioids and sedatives (e.g., benzodiazepines, barbiturates, chloral hydrate, droperidol, etc.). These agents may increase the anesthetic or sedative effects of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion and may also result in more pronounced decreases in systolic, diastolic, and mean arterial pressures and cardiac output.


http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm#

There is frequently concomitant use of Diprivan with all kinds of other meds, like Fentanyl and other analgesic narcs, neuromuscular blocks, benzo, gases, etc. It is usually given in conjunction with these other drugs for the induction of anesthesia. That increases the risk of respiratory depression and life-threatening hypotension though and *definitely* calls for strict, strict, strict, monitoring. This Dr. needs to burn, IMO.

[Xenam]

Yes, I think it is a combination. But the question will be, was Dr. Murray fully aware of all the drugs and amounts MJ was taking? Any charges will be very hard to prove, given MJ was quite capable of taking a pill on his own.

I was thinking also, it would have been extremely painful to be given drugs intervenisly (?) (sorry for spelling). I wonder if perhaps MJ had a butterfly somewhere for ease? I can't imagine if the reports are true that a Dr. would not have this in place and would put a patient through the pain. I can imagine that MJ would be requesting this, and it appears he always got what he wanted, and of course we have read about the reports of his veins being collapsed.

JMO

Guess we won't know for sure until the tox results are released IF they are released.

I did not follow the ANS case that well -- was her autopsy report released before the doctors were charged?

[Xenam]

Link please. If only two or three lived there how many would that make?

KJ is the matriarch of the family. MJ would have listed her address as such because she would know how to contact them. Three of the boys were Tito's sons and I know they don't live with KJ. Tito is employed and lives in his own house and his sons are grown and musical artists. I'm done with this. Believe what you want.

http://www.myspace.com/3tjacksonfanmusic2007

D. NOTICE TO PERSONS WHOSE ADDRESSES ARE UNKNOWN

Where the address of a person to whom notice is required to be mailed or delivered in a probate proceeding, including guardianships conservatorships, and trusts, is unknown, the court will require an affidavit or declaration stating with specificity the efforts that have been made to locate the person, as described in CRC 7.52.

http://www.sccsuperiorcourt.org/probate/rule5.2.htm#D

[aproudmom]

O my my what a wonderful day guess we are still talking about the amount of people living in a home that is not any of our business but OK we all have our own opinions but last time I checked the thread was about MJ not how many family members live in the home..but carry on I am not going to get baited in on this one it is ridiculous IMO:rolleyes:

[Zenyatta]

Yes, I think it is a combination. But the question will be, was Dr. Murray fully aware of all the drugs and amounts MJ was taking? Any charges will be very hard to prove, given MJ was quite capable of taking a pill on his own.

I was thinking also, it would have been extremely painful to be given drugs intervenisly (?) (sorry for spelling). I wonder if perhaps MJ had a butterfly somewhere for ease? I can't imagine if the reports are true that a Dr. would not have this in place and would put a patient through the pain. I can imagine that MJ would be requesting this, and it appears he always got what he wanted, and of course we have read about the reports of his veins being collapsed.

JMO

Good morning mrsmcgoo and Xenam,

Similar links about Diprivan and its use with other drugs (that the dose needs to be adjusted accordingly) have been posted several days ago. It led to speculation among some of us if someone else (including Jackson himself) may have administered other drugs, i.e. Demerol, that could have interacted lethally with the Diprivan.

I have also learned from listening to various anesthesiologists on the magazine shows that a patient can build tolerance to Diprivan, so it's even possible Jackson needed more Diprivan to derive the same benefits. (sorry, no link. I believe I last heard that on the Dateline show that aired last week).

I agree with the article mrsmcgoo posted that findings of a combination of drugs in MJ's system will make it difficult to pin this entirely on Dr. Murray.

As was previously discussed, what procedure(s) was Jackson undergoing with Klein in the appointments he had before his death, including the one that occurred the Monday before his death?

Proudmom did a great job of posting various links of MJ visiting Klein's office several different times in the weeks before his death.

IMO from my limited understanding of these drugs, I believe there's also the possibility that the cumulative effects of long term use of these drugs may have resulted in inevitable cardiac arrest with that last dose of Diprivan. The Russian Roulette phenomenon.

All imo.

[Xenam]

Good morning mrsmcgoo and Xenam,

Similar links about Diprivan and its use with other drugs (that the dose needs to be adjusted accordingly) have been posted several days ago. It led to speculation among some of us if someone else (including Jackson himself) may have administered other drugs, i.e. Demerol, that could have interacted lethally with the Diprivan.

I have also learned from listening to various anesthesiologists on the magazine shows that a patient can build tolerance to Diprivan, so it's even possible Jackson needed more Diprivan to derive the same benefits. (sorry, no link. I believe I last heard that on the Dateline show that aired last week).

I agree with the article mrsmcgoo posted that findings of a combination of drugs in MJ's system will make it difficult to pin this entirely on Dr. Murray.

As was previously discussed, what procedure(s) was Jackson undergoing with Klein in the appointments he had before his death, including the one that occurred the Monday before his death?

Proudmom did a great job of posting various links of MJ visiting Klein's office several different times in the weeks before his death.

IMO from my limited understanding of these drugs, I believe there's also the possibility that the cumulative effects of long term use of these drugs may have resulted in inevitable cardiac arrest with that last dose of Diprivan. The Russian Roulette phenomenon.

All imo.

imo

GM Zen ..... :)

I wish they would just release the results already to end all of this speculation; however I do agree that there may have been long term, cumulative affects.

[CinderL.]

Guess we won't know for sure until the tox results are released IF they are released.

I did not follow the ANS case that well -- was her autopsy report released before the doctors were charged?

Long before.

[Xenam]

There is frequently concomitant use of Diprivan with all kinds of other meds, like Fentanyl and other analgesic narcs, neuromuscular blocks, benzo, gases, etc. It is usually given in conjunction with these other drugs for the induction of anesthesia. That increases the risk of respiratory depression and life-threatening hypotension though and *definitely* calls for strict, strict, strict, monitoring. This Dr. needs to burn, IMO.

No argument here. At minimum he should have had the proper equipment needed to do thorough monitoring and rescue efforts and if he fell asleep as reported - he is in trouble no matter what. JMO

[VC2]

I found this interesting. You can take demerol when receiving diprivan - just that the diprivan's dosage would have to be reduced:

The induction dose requirements of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion may be reduced in patients with intramuscular or intravenous premedication, particularly with narcotics (e.g., morphine, meperidine, and fentanyl, etc.) and combinations of opioids and sedatives (e.g., benzodiazepines, barbiturates, chloral hydrate, droperidol, etc.). These agents may increase the anesthetic or sedative effects of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion and may also result in more pronounced decreases in systolic, diastolic, and mean arterial pressures and cardiac output.


http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm#

absolutely sensible, one thing i wondered about re people suggesting that he might have had a demerol before or after diprivan (after doesn't seem to be able to affect him because the diprivans actions stop within 2 minutes -40 seconds to 20 minutes which is why i so don't buy that "aide gave him a shot afterwards story..or at least that it killed him)

Hospitals do not keep people in agonizing pain while waiting for an operating room. They give them the narcotics necessary once they can see what the problems are. I venture to say most patients that go under have some form of narcotic on board if they have either cancer or a traumatic injury.

IMO

eta and AGAIN shows why/how Murray is completely incompetent because clearly the dosage needs to be titrated carefully with other medications, some which may have perfectly legitimate purposes. For example, a thyroid issue can cause a thyroid storm and kill a patient under anaesthesia, so there are things he could have taken that work fine with diprivan but the anaesthesiologist has to know.

To be fair though, they don't do a full blood panel in a dental office or minor surgical clinic before inducing but then again they have all the rescue equipment needed and monitoring equipment

[CinderL.]

O my my what a wonderful day guess we are still talking about the amount of people living in a home that is not any of our business but OK we all have our own opinions but last time I checked the thread was about MJ not how many family members live in the home..but carry on I am not going to get baited in on this one it is ridiculous IMO:rolleyes:

His family is a related topic, no?

[Xenam]

Long before.

GM and thanks Cinder. So I guess there is a possibility then the tox report may be released.

[CinderL.]

And this, just because I am nosy. :laugh: House information. It is a really big house. It also looks like it has a guest house in front. Or maybe that is the garage.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4641-Hayvenhurst-Ave-Encino-CA-91436/19991730_zpid/

[Zenyatta]

GM Zen ..... :)

I wish they would just release the results already to end all of this speculation; however I do agree that there may have been long term, cumulative affects.

You and me both, Xenam.

I can't help but think the "long term, cumulative effects" explanation may have been what caused Katherine to say, rather indignantly, in that telephone interview with Geraldo that her son was too young to die of natural causes. imo

[aproudmom]

For the temporary arrangement. KJ did have sleeping bags for them. Temporarily, probably one of the herd living there would be available if KJ became incapacitated.

in my opinion

silly
herd of what..a little harsh if your talking about any children or a family that has been through and is still being put through H** I guess I was raised not to be so harsh about people I do not even know or have never stepped foot in the home..I think the experts can do their job just fine..JMO

Children & Family Services Investigating Welfare Of Michael Jackson's Children [/B]

The investigators will also look into conditions at the Encino house, such as who would care for the children should Katherine not be available.

[VC2]

Link please. If only two or three lived there how many would that make? Besides, the lawyer, Mr Branca, would find out the addresses. imo

uhh the will was written 7 years ago. I believe the tito3 were minors at the time.

Either way you cannot go by addresses on a 7 year old will to tell you who lives there now

IMO

[Lavinia]

No argument here. At minimum he should have had the proper equipment needed to do thorough monitoring and rescue efforts and if he fell asleep as reported - he is in trouble no matter what. JMO

IMO, at minimum, he shouldn't have been giving this to MJ even if he had him housed in an ICU room or an OR suite at Ceders Sinai. Diprivan was not indicated for an ailment MJ had, and certainly not for sleep. To me, it's really a moot point about any monitoring equipment or rescue equipment or whether the Dr. should have been asleep or whether MJ had taken other meds on his own. It (Diprivan) just plain old shouldn't have been administered in the first place.

[aproudmom]

You and me both, Xenam.

I can't help but think the "long term, cumulative effects" explanation may have been what caused Katherine to say, rather indignantly, in that telephone interview with Geraldo that her son was too young to die of natural causes. imo

ITA with you and X

[Zenyatta]

IMO, at minimum, he shouldn't have been giving this to MJ even if he had him housed in an ICU room or an OR suite at Ceders Sinai. Diprivan was not indicated for an ailment MJ had, and certainly not for sleep. To me, it's really a moot point about any monitoring equipment or rescue equipment or whether the Dr. should have been asleep or whether MJ had taken other meds on his own. It (Diprivan) just plain old shouldn't have been administered in the first place.

Hi Lavinia,

Absolutely agree 100%, especially your point that Diprivan should never have been administered to Jackson for any of his current ailments, or as a sleep aid.

[mrsmcgoo]

Guess we won't know for sure until the tox results are released IF they are released.

I did not follow the ANS case that well -- was her autopsy report released before the doctors were charged?


Yes, her autopsy report was released well before the Dr.s were charged. This being said, Florida has very open records to the public so all the documents were published as they were completed. I am not from the US, but I have read here that other states have different laws in regard to the access of such information. I wonder if we will ever get the full findings of the autopy or autopy's in this case.

JMO

[Lavinia]

His body didn't look worn out just hours before, during rehearsal. In fact, I think his body looked far from worn out. He certainly didn't look like a dying man to me.


imo...of course.

To be fair, he could have had some molecular responses that were fatigued from chronic use of substances and we wouldn't necessarily see that. That doesn't make him a dying man all the time, only a dying man when he is continued to be exposed to what might be fatiguing his system. IMO.

[Xenam]

And this, just because I am nosy. :laugh: House information. It is a really big house. It also looks like it has a guest house in front. Or maybe that is the garage.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4641-Hayvenhurst-Ave-Encino-CA-91436/19991730_zpid/

IIRC there was a separate movie theater that was converted into separate quarters for Jermaine's family in 1992. This was discussed earlier but don't know where the link is :(

[aproudmom]

IMO, at minimum, he shouldn't have been giving this to MJ even if he had him housed in an ICU room or an OR suite at Ceders Sinai. Diprivan was not indicated for an ailment MJ had, and certainly not for sleep. To me, it's really a moot point about any monitoring equipment or rescue equipment or whether the Dr. should have been asleep or whether MJ had taken other meds on his own. It (Diprivan) just plain old shouldn't have been administered in the first place.

no link but the other day I was reading more about this and a lot of doctors no longer use it because the smallest amount can kill/cause problems during surgery's..Ushers wife almost died during plastic surgery with this drug IIRC just month ago..she went into cardiac arrest..

[Lavinia]

Hi Lavinia,

Absolutely agree 100%, especially your point that Diprivan should never have been administered to Jackson for any of his current ailments, or as a sleep aid.

Hey Zenyatta. :seeya: Yeah, when you cut to the chase, that's all it amounts to, IMO. It just shouldn't have been on board regardless. I'm going to assume there is no procedure that Dr, Murray can cite that he did while MJ was anesthetized. Repeatedly. The end.

[CinderL.]

5 beds, 7.0 baths, 10,476 sq ft

Not near large enough for everyone living there.

moo

Don't know :shrug: I was just glad I don't have the 20 thousand a month payment, or the property taxes. :ohmy::wink:

[Lavinia]

no link but the other day I was reading more about this and a lot of doctors no longer use it because the smallest amount can kill/cause problems during surgery's..Ushers wife almost died during plastic surgery with this drug IIRC just month ago..she went into cardiac arrest..

Yes, APM. There are problems with all the available anesthetics. Some will bottom out a BP so fast it's unreal. Some will cause liver damage, some can't be used in pts. with kidney/liver function irregularities, some cause malignant hyperthermia, etc, etc. That's why it takes a skilled anesthesiologist/NP and monitoring to determine what it best for that patient at the *time*. What is good for a patient one time, might not prove to be so at the next for the same patient. This Dr. proves you can hire someone for anything. He absolutely defied the Hippocratic oath, "Above all, do no harm..."

[aproudmom]

IIRC there was a separate movie theater that was converted into separate quarters for Jermaine's family in 1992. This was discussed earlier but don't know where the link is :(

was it in the regular thread I remember it..I think it is even in the tax liens IIRC..5 bedrooms heck they must be huge..I am sure bunk beds would be just fine for any children even MJ children..7 bathrooms I would kill for that many bathrooms..lol :biggrin:

[Xenam]

And this, just because I am nosy. :laugh: House information. It is a really big house. It also looks like it has a guest house in front. Or maybe that is the garage.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4641-Hayvenhurst-Ave-Encino-CA-91436/19991730_zpid/

I certainly don't see any problem with them adding an extension if need be. The house only takes up 25% of their property and it is a full acre and a little more:

From your link:

Public Facts:

* Single family
* 5 beds
* 7.0 bath
* 10,476 sqft
* Lot 43,990 sqft
* Built in 1983

[BOZGAL2]

A house that large could very well have 10 or more BR. The original listing might say 5BR. Any room can be made into a BR very easily when you have that much room. How many people use dens or other rooms for BR? The furniture in the room dictates how it will be used. It would not surprise me one bit if KJ has not already remodeled in some fashion.

Like I said before, I feel sure they will manage just fine. :wink: JMO

[daniel green]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8265550


"They backed up trucks, removing everything," DiLeo was quoted as telling the magazine in its issue that hits newsstands on Friday. "They thought Michael owned it all, so they took even the rented furniture. That's who's going to run his estate?"



OOPs. I guess that answers someones question about if the home he lived in was furnished.

Man oh man. They took everything that wasn't tied down, seems like.

[daniel green]

Jackson Insurance Policy May Be Worthless

Posted Aug 7th 2009 9:48AM by TMZ Staff

It looks like the insurance policy taken out on Michael Jackson to cover tens of millions of dollars in losses in the event of the singer's death may be a bust.

The Lloyd's of London policy -- taken out by AEG in case Jackson didn't perform his London concerts -- did not cover death related to illegal drug use. According to the policy, obtained by the L.A. Times, "This insurance does not cover any loss directly or indirectly arising out of, contributed, to, by or resulting from ... the illegal possession or illicit taking of drugs and their effects."


Well, well, well. Interesting.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/07/jackson-insurance-policy-may-be-worthless/

Well, well, well. Interesting.

[Lavinia]

Would not that be more considered a drug overdose, rather than worn out body?

and *kiss* to you Lavinia. :wub:

Well, he could have been overdosed at a much lower level than expected if he was starting to wear out certain molecular responses. Technically, it's still an overdose, I suppose, but it may not have overdosed someone who wasn't compromised by prior, chronic use. We'll just have to wait until the tox results are out but he may have overdosed on what was his "routine" level of Dip. It's just a damn shame he found that Dr. <shudder>

Backatcha Arg! :wub:

[aproudmom]

Yes, APM. There are problems with all the available anesthetics. Some will bottom out a BP so fast it's unreal. Some will cause liver damage, some can't be used in pts. with kidney/liver function irregularities, some cause malignant hyperthermia, etc, etc. That's why it takes a skilled anesthesiologist/NP and monitoring to determine what it best for that patient at the *time*. What is good for a patient one time, might not prove to be so at the next for the same patient. This Dr. proves you can hire someone for anything. He absolutely defied the Hippocratic oath, "Above all, do no harm..."

ITA with you I was just saying I was just reading about this one..my sister had a hyperactive thyroid and could not be put under until they got it leveled out...

[Xenam]

5 beds, 7.0 baths, 10,476 sq ft

Not near large enough for everyone living there.

moo

You are kidding right? That is 5x the size of an average home in the US and it is situated on a little more than an acre of property. :rolleyes:

The Question:

What is the average home size in the U.S.?
The Answer:

According to the National Association of Home Builders, the average home size in the United States was 2,330 square feet in 2004, up from 1,400 square feet in 1970.

http://www.nahb.org/

[aproudmom]

Well, he could have been overdosed at a much lower level than expected if he was starting to wear out certain molecular responses. Technically, it's still an overdose, I suppose, but it may not have overdosed someone who wasn't compromised by prior, chronic use. We'll just have to wait until the tox results are out but he may have overdosed on what was his "routine" level of Dip. It's just a damn shame he found that Dr. <shudder>

Backatcha Arg! :wub:

great post and I wish they would release it so all the talk could just be done with..well wait a minute that will never happen..lol..anyway thanks for the info Lav

[GentleBreeze]

5 beds, 7.0 baths, 10,476 sq ft

Not near large enough for everyone living there.

moo

When over 10,000 feet of living space isn't considered large enough to accommodate three more people then boy are the caregivers of children going to go into shock in this country. The home where the Billings family lived wasn't this big and they had many more children living in their home than the Jacksons do.

If KJ had not had adequate footage she would not have been awarded full custody of her grandchildren. The Judge isn't clueless about other family members living there too. Evidently he thinks her home is quite large and more than enough.

Glad that the government so far isn't making laws on how big homes have to be for families. The Jackson family themselves lived in a tiny, two bedroom home back in Indiana and had kids galore.

:lol:I highly doubt any of the Jackson family members are cramped in that huge home like sardines.:lol:

imo

[Xenam]

Who should pay for all the adding? This adding would be for family members who are not beneficiaries of the estate, no?

moo

KJ was left 40% of MJ's estate. It is HER money to do with what she pleases. She was supporting them before MJ died and will continue to support them after his death and I am sure MJ knew who was living with her. If the children require additional living space nothing wrong with her using some of their money to extend the home or convert existing rooms to meet their needs JMO :rolleyes:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

First of all we don't know what equipment was there. Second, if the treatment was over the doctor can go to sleep. We don't know about that either.

MJ was a drug addict for a very long time. His body may have just given out to everyone's surprise. Who really knows?

imo

But we do have reports what was there when EMT's arrived..and that was an IV pole, an empty IV bag..Lidocaine syringe on bedside table..I heard nothing about any monitor, O2 Sat machine, Intubation equipment, ambu bag or save no intubation..at least Airways and ambu bag.

As to the drugs..apparantly Dr. Murray had a well organized closet with his medications...I saw a picture of that walk in closet..

LMS:laugh:

[daniel green]

Here is a link for you. Check out attachment 8. A whole lot of adult nephews living there I would say.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0701091mjwill8.html

Yikes.

PLUS that Omar kid who sat in front row at that memorial and now lives with KJ.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

She does NOT have access to the entire 40%. Just her monthly stipends.

imo

exactly my understanding too sillywilly, the 40% of the principle stays intrust earning money..and it those moneys she has access to..I for one thinks its a very wise move on whoever set up that estate planning...

LMS

ETA: If anyone wishes to look up trust laws..then you will see how this "Jackson Family Trust' would likely be set up..

[daniel green]

She does NOT have access to the entire 40%. Just her monthly stipends.

imo

There is absolutely no proof of that. Nobody has seen the Trust.
Nobody here knows whether she gets a lump sum, a monthly ck, nothing.

We just don't know.

[aproudmom]

It was just posted by Cinder from Zillow. Number of bedrooms, bathrooms, and sq. footage.

Somehow, I don't think MJ would want his children stacked on bunk beds.They should live in the style they were accustomed too. moo

I said 5 bedrooms 7 baths..and my kids slept on bunk beds so can his is there something in the will stating MY KIDS ARE NOT TO BE ON BUNKBEDS..if so link please I am so over this ridiculous topic..I do not think any of us our Privy to how they are living or who is living there why do we give a crap is my question some seem to think the kids are going to be broke and living on the streets in a few years and should be treated different because they are MJ children..I do not think these kids are spoiled rotten but I guess I could be wrong but funny I have not heard one out of many say they are...all JMO over this topic agree to disagree..

[Xenam]

Yikes.

PLUS that Omar kid who sat in front row at that memorial and now lives with KJ.

The people listed on that will are NOT living in Encino. That is just an address MJ listed on it. Not uncommon for a will to contain an address of the matriarch of the family when an address is unknown. Three of the nephews are the singing group 3T and I know they don't live in Encino. They are Tito's sons. KJ had 5 minor children living with her and now MJ's 3. She raised 8 children in that home. JMO

Done with this convo. The home is big enough for these 8 children and then some. The house is 10,476 square feet - an average house in the US is 2330 square feet -- that is 5x the national average. The property is a little more than an acre. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Well, well, well. Interesting.

Yes, it is especially since it is out that Murray gave a full list of prescriptions to the ER doctors that he KNEW MJ was on.

And the news that he has admitted that he had given MJ sedatives before he gave him the Diprivan. I would think these were legally prescribed drugs.

The kicker is going to be that Dipri is not even a controlled substance. There is no law that I have been able to locate that it is against the law to use it in any particular setting. In fact other posters have said it can be bought right on line.

And Dipri is not illegal either.

imo

[daniel green]

Ridiculous? That MJ children will be living in an over crowded home and have no privacy? Since it is their house through the estate, I think it's rotten myself.

imo

Totally agree.

[Lavinia]

But we do have reports what was there when EMT's arrived..and that was an IV pole, an empty IV bag..Lidocaine syringe on bedside table..I heard nothing about any monitor, O2 Sat machine, Intubation equipment, ambu bag or save no intubation..at least Airways and ambu bag.

As to the drugs..apparantly Dr. Murray had a well organized closet with his medications...I saw a picture of that walk in closet..

LMS:laugh:

I saw that about the lidocaine too. IIRC, (it's been a while since I worked), but lidocaine would not be the drug of choice in a Dip overdose, as lidocaine *soothes* erratic electrical impulses in the heart and MJ would have likely needed meds along the line of atropine and epinephrine which help *stimulate* the heart and bring BP back to normal. IMO.

[daniel green]

The people listed on that will are NOT living in Encino. That is just an address MJ listed on it. Not uncommon for a will to contain an address of the matriarch of the family when an address is unknown. Three of the nephews are the singing group 3T and I know they don't live in Encino. They are Tito's sons. KJ had 5 minor children living with her and now MJ's 3. She raised 8 children in that home. JMO

There are 11 kids now there plus Omar. ET had it on last night and it is detailed in the People Magazine this week, entitled Hotel For Kids.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Yes, it is especially since it is out that Murray gave a full list of prescriptions to the ER doctors that he KNEW MJ was on.

And the news that he has admitted that he had given MJ sedatives before he gave him the Diprivan. I would think these were legally prescribed drugs.

The kicker is going to be that Dipri is not even a controlled substance. There is no law that I have been able to locate that it is against the law to use it in any particular setting. In fact other posters have said it can be bought right on line.

And Dipri is not illegal either.

imo

Diprivan may not be a controlled substance ( but no doubt will be soon) however..like anything else..anything that is used inappropriately carries some sort of consequence...and any Doctor should have known, administering this drug in the manner Dr. Murray did..was INappropriate...and medically unsafe..hummm..isnt that negligence?..

LMS

[CinderL.]

I saw that about the lidocaine too. IIRC, (it's been a while since I worked), but lidocaine would not be the drug of choice in a Dip overdose, as lidocaine *soothes* erratic electrical impulses in the heart and MJ would have likely needed meds along the line of atropine and epinephrine which help *stimulate* the heart and bring BP back to normal. IMO.

It was said that the lidocain was used because diprovan burns.

[GentleBreeze]

You are kidding right? That is 5x the size of an average home in the US and it is situated on a little more than an acre of property. :rolleyes:

The Question:

What is the average home size in the U.S.?
The Answer:

According to the National Association of Home Builders, the average home size in the United States was 2,330 square feet in 2004, up from 1,400 square feet in 1970.

http://www.nahb.org/

And some are calling a home with over 10,000 SF small?????:w00t:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I saw that about the lidocaine too. IIRC, (it's been a while since I worked), but lidocaine would not be the drug of choice in a Dip overdose, as lidocaine *soothes* erratic electrical impulses in the heart and MJ would have likely needed meds along the line of atropine and epinephrine which help *stimulate* the heart and bring BP back to normal. IMO.

You are right Lavina..Lidocaine is given during dysrhythmia's but I think in this case it was used by Dr. Murray to deaden the pain for injection of Diprivan..as it is very painful to have injected...

LMS

[CinderL.]

There are 11 kids now there plus Omar. ET had it on last night and it is detailed in the People Magazine this week, entitled Hotel For Kids.

how many adults?

[CinderL.]

And some are calling a home with over 10,000 SF small?????:w00t:

Where did you see someone calling this a small house?

[Lavinia]

Diprivan may not be a controlled substance ( but no doubt will be soon) however..like anything else..anything that is used inappropriately carries some sort of consequence...and any Doctor should have known, administering this drug in the manner Dr. Murray did..was INappropriate...and medically unsafe..hummm..isnt that negligence?..

LMS

Absolutely! I don't know whether Diprivan is a non-controlled substance, but I'll take the word of you guys who have looked it up. That still doesn't negate Dr. Murray's hand in this. A normal saline (salt water) IV is considered a RX when given to a person. You better not be giving someone a NS IV if you don't have Dr.s orders and how much more simple is a substance then NS?

[aproudmom]

Don't know :shrug: I was just glad I don't have the 20 thousand a month payment, or the property taxes. :ohmy:

:thumbsup:that is the first thing I thought of..BTW thanks for that link of the house there are tons of home Videos on YouTube of it..but never seen it like that before..pretty neat.

[Lavinia]

You are right Lavina..Lidocaine is given during dysrhythmia's but I think in this case it was used by Dr. Murray to deaden the pain for injection of Diprivan..as it is very painful to have injected...

LMS

I see. I thought it was an IV push he was given. That was something else I wondered about. How often can MJ have been given Dip, and still had veins? Dip can cause sclerosing of veins. I can't imagine that he had much of any veins left. (Maybe that explains the neck punctures.)

[mrsmcgoo]

Not to mention Jermaine's 4 kids and Randy's 3 kids. moo

I agree. Is that house equal to what the children are accustom too? Certainly not if it only has 5 bedrooms and the number of people living there.
Doesn't sound like it is to me, and it is their right, if the estate's funds allow, for them to be brought up in the manner and comfort they are accustom too.

JMO

[Lavinia]

It was said that the lidocain was used because diprovan burns.

Thanks Cinder. I thought is was in the form (amount) of a resuscitative drug.

[GentleBreeze]

Diprivan may not be a controlled substance ( but no doubt will be soon) however..like anything else..anything that is used inappropriately carries some sort of consequence...and any Doctor should have known, administering this drug in the manner Dr. Murray did..was INappropriate...and medically unsafe..hummm..isnt that negligence?..

LMS

I am not so sure administering may have been inappropriate according to the laws in place but not monitoring his patient very closely throughout is definitely negligence and I believe that and what he may have given him for sedatives before that... caused his death.

All I am saying is the drugs were prescribed then they are not illegal drugs.

And if they aren't even a controlled substance then that just opens it wide open.

It still does not negate his negligent or reckless act of not monitoring his patient but they may not be able to add charges that he didn't have the legal right to use the Propofol because as it stands now from what I can tell it doesn't say one way or the other.

I do expect that to change now but it is too late for this case imo.

imo

[daniel green]

how many adults?

The ex wife of Randy/Jermaine, KJ, Rebbie and her family, Omar, off the top of my head.

[CinderL.]

I am not so sure administering may have been inappropriate according to the laws in place but not monitoring his patient very closely throughout is definitely negligence and I believe that and what he may have given him for sedatives before that... caused his death.

All I am saying is the drugs were prescribed then they are not illegal drugs.

And if they aren't even a controlled substance then that just opens it wide open.

It still does not negate his negligent or reckless act of not monitoring his patient but they may not be able to add charges that he didn't have the legal right to use the Propofol because as it stands now from what I can tell it doesn't say one way or the other.

I do expect that to change now but it is too late for this case imo.

imo

But, diprovan isn't a prescription drug. It will be interesting to know where it came from.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I see. I thought it was an IV push he was given. That was something else I wondered about. How often can MJ have been given Dip, and still had veins? Dip can cause sclerosing of veins. I can't imagine that he had much of any veins left. (Maybe that explains the neck punctures.)


You catch on fast Lavinia...Although those neck punctures may have come after resuscitation efforts started...we dont know how fresh they were nor who did them...at this point...By all accounts his veins were pretty sclerotic...dont have a link to that..so just what I recall..

LMS

[daniel green]

You are kidding right? That is 5x the size of an average home in the US and it is situated on a little more than an acre of property. :rolleyes:

The Question:

What is the average home size in the U.S.?
The Answer:

According to the National Association of Home Builders, the average home size in the United States was 2,330 square feet in 2004, up from 1,400 square feet in 1970.

http://www.nahb.org/

But that is such an unfair comparison. Ave American families do not have 11+ kids and several unrelated adults living in it.

We have 3800 sq ft and 4 bdrms and we have 2 kids and my husband and I and an older son who visits frequently and has a room. And we feel like it's tight quarters.

Just imagine how those 3 kids feel, given they had so much room before, all cramped up with these ppl they barely knew.

[Xenam]

There are 11 kids now there plus Omar. ET had it on last night and it is detailed in the People Magazine this week, entitled Hotel For Kids.

Omar is there temporarily. Where did they allegedly get this info from? KJ said she was raising 5 grandchildren (3 of Randy's children and 2 of Jermaines). LaToya and Janet have no children. Rebbie's, Jackie's, Tito's and Marlon's children are grown and have never lived at Encino - just who are these 11 children? With the addition of MJ's 3 that makes 8 I have read that some family had been there due to MJ's death and I would think they will be leaving soon if they haven't already left. :confused: In any event the house is large and MJ's room was empty. They probably have rooms that can be easily converted too! We also don't know the size of the existing bedrooms - they may be able to be made smaller. The house is 10,476 square feet. JMO

[daniel green]

exactly my understanding too sillywilly, the 40% of the principle stays intrust earning money..and it those moneys she has access to..I for one thinks its a very wise move on whoever set up that estate planning...

LMS

ETA: If anyone wishes to look up trust laws..then you will see how this "Jackson Family Trust' would likely be set up..

There has been absolute NO NONE ZILCH info released about the Trust, and therefore ZERO info about what is it, what payments are to be made, when, etc.

[GentleBreeze]

But, diprovan isn't a prescription drug. It will be interesting to know where it came from.

Yes, I know that but I cant find a law that says it is illegal for a licensed doctor to use or where it specifically states it can never be done outside of a hospital setting or doctor's office. Dipr is not illegal.

In fact I have read articles that it is not even secured in hospitals and imo that is why many of the addicts are anesthesiologists or medical staff. They know it isn't controlled.

imo

[daniel green]

Omar is there temporarily. Where did they allegedly get this info from? KJ said she was raising 5 grandchildren (3 of Randy's children and 2 of Jermaines). LaToya and Janet have no children. Rebbie's, Jackie's, Tito's and Marlon's children are grown and have never lived at Encino - just who are these 11 children? With the addition of MJ's 3 that makes 8 :confused:

In any event the house is large and MJ's room was empty. JMO

It was on ET last night and they were showing pictures of everyone living there, from People Mag out this weekend. And where is it that Omar is there on a temp basis? The People Mag article is entitled "Hotel For Kids" and has pictures inside and outside the house.

[Lavinia]

You catch on fast Lavinia...Although those neck punctures may have come after resuscitation efforts started...we dont know how fresh they were nor who did them...at this point...By all accounts his veins were pretty sclerotic...dont have a link to that..so just what I recall..

LMS

Just a mess all the way around. I know I started out with great and plentiful veins, but I've had a lot of medical problems and I'm down to one good vein. Idjits that don't dilute phenergan are responsible for most of the sclerosis. :cursing: I wouldn't be surprised if he got some kind of anti-emetic also to prevent the almost inevitable stomach upsets.

[daniel green]

snipped...By all accounts his veins were pretty sclerotic...dont have a link to that..so just what I recall..

LMS

There have been accounts of what shape MJ's veins were in?

[Xenam]

It was on ET last night and they were showing pictures of everyone living there, from People Mag out this weekend. And where is it that Omar is there on a temp basis? The People Mag article is entitled "Hotel For Kids" and has pictures inside and outside the house.

Omar had to be living somwhere else before MJ's death. He wasn't staying with Michael in Holmsby so I would just presume he is there currently as a guest as possibly some others are too. Rebbie is still there and she has a home in Las Vegas. I do not believe all of these people are permanent residents. In the ABC interview that aired a couple of weeks ago inside the Encino home - 5 grandchildren were there with KJ and JJ and they said they were raising them. There were 4 boys and 1 girl. JMO

In any event 8 Jackson children were raised in that home

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Someone asked earlier about proof that an IV was in MJ when paramedics arrives...found a link to that fact~~

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank.

Also..will keep on looking for link with "Collapses Veins" aka sclerotic veins..

LMS:glare:

[daniel green]

I will buy People Mag and post the names of everyone living there.

[Xenam]

According to J Randy Taraborelli's book pgs 82-83; the Encino property consists of the main house, a guest house and servants quarters.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

But, diprovan isn't a prescription drug. It will be interesting to know where it came from.


I do believe they know where it came from..s the lot numbers of vials they found had been traced..however..I think they are trying find out the exact mode of transport from supplier to Dr. Murray..

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/one-step-closer-to-solving-jackson-drug-mystery/


Our sources say Teva looked at the lot number of the vial and found some of the vials in the lot went to AmerisourceBergen -- a distributor of the drug. We're told the DEA contacted AmerisourceBergen a few days ago and asked for all sales records of Propofol over a recent two-month period.

We're told the DEA is looking to match doctors or other health care providers that obtained the drug with doctors who have some connection to Michael Jackson

LMS

[CinderL.]

I do believe they know where it came from..s the lot numbers of vials they found had been traced..however..I think they are trying find out the exact mode of transport from supplier to Dr. Murray..

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/one-step-closer-to-solving-jackson-drug-mystery/


Our sources say Teva looked at the lot number of the vial and found some of the vials in the lot went to AmerisourceBergen -- a distributor of the drug. We're told the DEA contacted AmerisourceBergen a few days ago and asked for all sales records of Propofol over a recent two-month period.

We're told the DEA is looking to match doctors or other health care providers that obtained the drug with doctors who have some connection to Michael Jackson

LMS

Yep, that is what I want to know too. Where did Dr. Murray get it?

[daniel green]

Subsequent to Jackson’s apparent overdose, only two instances have emerged of lay people addicted to Propofol. A 21-year-old American bought it on eBay and killed himself while administering it through an IV drip. A 25-year-old German became addicted through a supply he obtained from a local veterinarian clinic.

There is some evidence that Propofol is so strong that just the fumes from the patient’s mouth lead to a secondhand exposure.

But the largely untold story of Propofol addiction is that of the steadily increasing numbers of abusers among medical professionals, primarily anesthesiologists and the nurses who work with it. The Talbott Recovery Campus, in Atlanta, is the world’s largest and oldest treatment center for addicted medical professionals. In 2006, the center had 8 cases of Propofol abuse, 12 in 2007, and 27 in 2008. The numbers are small compared to problems with other prescription pills, especially with anesthesiologists who historically have one of the highest addiction rates among doctors. But the trend is moving in a worrisome direction for those who study it.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-06/americas-new-drug-addiction/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsC5

[aproudmom]

Jackson, Michael - Glenda Tapes??

does anyone know who this so called friend is? all the YouTube videos have been removed of taped phone calls

[daniel green]

Michael Jackson was scheduled to undergo a second physical by an insurance company doctor at the time of his death, according to the terms of the policy purchased by the promoter of his planned comeback concerts in London. A New York doctor gave Jackson a battery of medical tests in February so promoter AEG Live could get insurance for a portion of the performances, but the British carrier underwriting the majority of the risk, Lloyd's, insisted on a follow-up physical by a London physician closer to the July 13 kickoff show. Under the terms in place when Jackson died, the $17.5-million policy covered only "losses" -- cancellations or non-appearances by the pop icon "resulting from accident." That coverage could have been expanded to include shows scuttled by a death from natural causes or by illness, but only after insurance officials had reviewed the results of the second medical examination and watched a run-through of the show at the O2 Arena. Jackson, 50, died June 25, the week before he was to travel to London. On Thursday, AEG Live provided a copy of the policy to Jackson's mother, Katherine, in what the company said was an effort to quell misinformation about its terms. The entertainer's father, Joe Jackson, suggested in an interview Sunday with Fox News' Geraldo Rivera that there was something suspicious about the AEG policy.

According to a copy obtained by The Times, the policy specifically prohibited a payout if cancellations were related to illegal drug use. "This insurance does not cover any loss directly or indirectly arising out of, contributed to, by or resulting from . . . the illegal possession or illicit taking of drugs and their effects," the policy read.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson-insurance7-2009aug07,0,5290158.story

[Zenyatta]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-06/americas-new-drug-addiction/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsC5

Hello daniel green,

Thank you for that. Belated thanks for the article you posted the other day about making Diprivan a controlled substance. Doesn't sound like the best idea from the standpoint of ERs and those who need ready access to it in their work.

I posted this to the Diane Dimond thread, and thought I'd repeat it here, since there's so little news to talk about.

Dr. Steven Hoefflin is MJ's former plastic surgeon, and has now been authorized by Katherine and Joe to speak on their behalf. On last weekend's episode of Geraldo, he made some rather pointed remarks about Dr. Klein and his involvement in this.

I know some believe Dimond has a very vivid imagination. Dr. Hoefflin looked very distinguished and professional on Geraldo's show, and the visual of that same man perched in a tree aiming a pellet gun at his neighbors is beyond bizarre.

"It's Getting Even Weirder"
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...-even-weirder/

//snip//
The plastic surgeon who built Michael's noses may be the most dubious character in the entire Jackson saga. Diane Dimond on the doctor whose bizarre behavior—like providing goodie bags of syringes filled with Demerol for celebrity patients; climbing a tree with a pellet gun; claiming to work undercover for the DEA and the Secret Service; and filing as a candidate for president—has attracted police attention, including a mental evaluation by the LAPD last year. But that hasn't stopped him from serving as the Jackson family's authorized medical representative, advising them on how to handle lawsuits, doctors, insurance, and the singer's promoter, AEG.
//snip//

[who_is_it]

Jackson Toxicology Report -- Propofol Plus ...

"Multiple law enforcement sources tell us the toxicology report in the Michael Jackson case shows Jackson had a lethal amount of the anesthetic Propofol in his system -- but that wasn't the only drug.

We're told the toxicology findings show there was also Xanax -- generic is called alprazolam -- in Jackson's system. Xanax is used to treat anxiety.

But our sources say Propofol was -- as one source put it -- "front and center in terms of why he [Jackson] died.""

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/07/jackson-toxicology-report-propofol-plus/

[daniel green]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMkoNA7ANMxeUu2iZ9hdf_Vr1FfQD99U52L03

AP says that Dr M administered MULTIPLE sedatives along with diprivan.

[aproudmom]

Yep, that is what I want to know too. Where did Dr. Murray get it?

I second that question where did he get it..

[daniel green]

snipped

in his system -- but that wasn't the only drug.

We're told the toxicology findings show there was also [B]Xanax -- generic is called alprazolam -- in Jackson's system. Xanax is used to treat anxiety.

]

Called that one, didn't I?

Dateline reported that MJ took 20-30 per night.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Daniel this is to your query about the will and that pesky 40% to KJ..

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/michael-jackson-will-burial-trust/

We've learned the will -- which will be filed today -- is 5 pages long. As for who gets what -- Jackson's entire estate goes to the Michael Jackson Family Trust. The trust documents are not included in the will and the contents of the trust remain confidential.

We're told the trust provides for Michael's children and mother, and distributes money to several charities.

LMS

[daniel green]

snipped
Dr. Steven Hoefflin is MJ's former plastic surgeon, and has now been authorized by Katherine and Joe to speak on their behalf. On last weekend's episode of Geraldo, he made some rather pointed remarks about Dr. Klein and his involvement in this.

I know some believe Dimond has a very vivid imagination. Dr. Hoefflin looked very distinguished and professional on Geraldo's show, and the visual of that same man perched in a tree aiming a pellet gun at his neighbors is beyond bizarre.

"It's Getting Even Weirder"
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...-even-weirder/

snipped

I read that lengthy pice. Is that not absolutely bizarre??????? Giving celb patients goody bags of syringes/demerol? And the letters re President???

YOWZER. :ohmy:

[Zenyatta]

"It's Getting Even Weirder"
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...-even-weirder/

//snip//
The plastic surgeon who built Michael's noses may be the most dubious character in the entire Jackson saga. Diane Dimond on the doctor whose bizarre behavior—like providing goodie bags of syringes filled with Demerol for celebrity patients; climbing a tree with a pellet gun; claiming to work undercover for the DEA and the Secret Service; and filing as a candidate for president—has attracted police attention, including a mental evaluation by the LAPD last year. But that hasn't stopped him from serving as the Jackson family's authorized medical representative, advising them on how to handle lawsuits, doctors, insurance, and the singer's promoter, AEG.
//snip//


Replacement link:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-06/its-getting-even-weirder/full/

Sorry, original link didn't work. Happens almost every time I try to cut and paste a link from another post :shrug:

[Xenam]

Jackson, Michael - Glenda Tapes??

does anyone know who this so called friend is? all the YouTube videos have been removed of taped phone calls

All of the tapes were removed by the user but allegedly they were phone conversations with a woman in 1992. You can see a little bit of the convos here but don't hit play because they will go blank. Allegedly he divulged info that he was a "virgin"

"Taped recordings of telephone calls between Michael Jackson and a woman named “Glenda” are all over the Internets. In these audio tapes recording at the beginning of the Dangerous Tour in 1992, Michael talks about his childhood, his lack of a love life, Tatum O’Neal and his strained relationship with his domineering father Joseph Jackson.

Michael can be heard cursing like a sailor as he recalls the abuse he suffered at the hands of his father. The tapes are authentic according to Michaeljackson.com. The interesting part to me is when Michael repeatedly refers to Glenda as “girl” instead of by her name."

http://sandrarose.com/2009/08/04/audio-michael-jackson-taped-phone-calls/